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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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May 23, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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Little does this climber know that his partners cat took a leak on the rope a few weeks before, and he is about to die.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 23, 2006 - 02:06pm PT
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Yer scarin me juan.
I may never climb again.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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May 23, 2006 - 02:13pm PT
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The leader should not fall.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 23, 2006 - 03:00pm PT
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Psst, Psst, hey TR, they are joking!!! Really!
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Dr.Kodos
Trad climber
Tennessee
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May 23, 2006 - 03:50pm PT
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bullsh*t. i know that in SOME situations, it's true the leader must not fall, but on a route with good gear, that's horsesh*t. if you arn't willing to fall you shouldn't be climbing. even if gear is harder to clean after it has been fallen on.
Respectfully disagree 100 percent.
Climbing is INHERENTLY dangerous and lives could be lost even when things go correctly. Too many people have come to believe this can be a safe sport.
It is not.
Nor should it be.
In any fall, it is impossible to accurately predict with 100 percent efficacy what will happen. Therefore: all falls have the potential to be fatal and really should be avoided whenever possible.
It is the best way to ensure safety (or something close to it).
The old sKoOLeRs knew a little sumptin-sumptin.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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May 23, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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Quote: The old sKoOLeRs knew a little sumptin-sumptin.
. . . about their antiquated gear. it's a brave new world out there old man. we're not using goldline, tied hexes, tube chocks, swamis and early generation stopppers. gear manufacturing has come a long way.
it's still easy to remove yourself from the world if you're determined, but chance plays a much smaller role in the modern climbing world.
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Dr.Kodos
Trad climber
Tennessee
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May 23, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
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Trashman: I have taken hundreds, NO THOUSANDS of falls. 5 of them over 100 feet. Too many to count over 40 feet. When I fall, it is rarely less than 20 feet.
Each and every time I fall, I never know I will be safe until I feel the "pick-up" on the rope and come to a rest without hitting something.
All I am trying to convey is the notion that falls could precipitate injury or worse REGARDLESS OF SITUATION (even if bolts are three inches apart safety is not ensured. It is always safer to not fall. PERIOD.
If one wants to avoid the possibility of a climbing injury or fatality I suggest either not falling or even worse, not climbing.
Anything else is a risk.
Old shool guys (like me) understand this is always in effect. New schoolers have been taught the sport is safe (or it can be).
It is not.
That is all.
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organism
Trad climber
san diego, california
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May 23, 2006 - 04:28pm PT
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you must be a terrible climber.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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May 23, 2006 - 04:31pm PT
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Spot on Kodos. Just look at the recent history at Joshua Tree. What's more, if you only consider injuries and not deaths, falling is almost always the cause. How many people have climbed more than 5 years and not hurt something? Falling is risky. Not falling is safer. Do I still fall off leading? Yeap. Would I rather not. Yeap.
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Dr.Kodos
Trad climber
Tennessee
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May 23, 2006 - 04:36pm PT
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you must be a terrible climber.
To some, I would think so. I wish I was better, that is certain.
Then again, I'm still alive after 35 years and thousands of ascents.
And rapid descents, so......
Very few people push themselves the way I do. Yes, I suck, but I have.....SPUNK. Unless you are Lou Grant and hate spunk, we have no issue.
Anyone that has ever climbed with me will tell you that. I live to go for it and suffer the consequences. If that makes me a poor climber, I can live with your judgement. I like it unsafe and dangerous.
Especially since only my judgement is what counts (That's a joke folks).
If there is no chance of getting hurt, I am usually not interested in the route. I abhor safety and over concern with it....Tha being said I never put others in a risky situation. I do it for myself. I free solo a lot.
When I was in J tree with Terrie, I soloed 34 routes in one day. Best day ever. Scared myself so that I didn't poop for three weeks. I like it that way.
Let me use a smiley to make sure you realize I am not hostile here, mmmmkay?
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sean stitt
Sport climber
sacramento
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May 23, 2006 - 06:33pm PT
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Dr KODOS,
I know a climber who climbed an 80 foot route, didn't fall, took at the top when he realized he wasn't tied in. He decked and took two years to recover. My bet is that he wishes he fell at the first bolt. Moreover, it would have been safer in these conditions.
Not falling is NOT always safer than falling. Sometimes falling is the best and safest thing to do. How many of us have been at that moment of "should I keep going and risk a bigger fall or just take the whipper now". I've done both and more often than not I've wished I had done the latter.
Old timers, youngsters whatever. All of our comfort thresholds are different. If you're one of those old dogs who think your own placed gear is "safer than most bolts" and you came up in the bowline around the waist and hip belay school - I think we can all understand why you don't want to fall.
Those of us brought up in gyms and on bolts know that "if you are not flying you are not trying". Who thinks the grade of 5.15A would have ever been attained with out the sport climbers approach to falling. How hard would the cutting edge be if everyone was still being forced to utilize the old ground-up ethic of the Valley. I took easily over 1000 falls LAST YEAR alone - no injuries. Multiply this by about 12 to get my total career falls. This was this guys FIRST lead fall and his rope breaks and he decks.
There are no absolutes except death and taxes - and even taxes are negotiable if you have enough money.
The important thing is a rope broke, a climber cratered, and he is ALIVE and OK and wants to climb again. The rope will be tested and we will all know the culprit. As I said before, I'm betting on chemical degradation - in fact, I'll go out on a limb and say this rope got pissed on - person or animal it doesn't really matter- but I say urine.
P.S. - Not that this is a "lucky" situation but, fortunate for the climber that this did happen in a nice padded gym and not in the El Cap tallus or worse. We could be reading about this in "Passages". Thank god and padding that we are not.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 23, 2006 - 07:16pm PT
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BVoyles old boy, you're both tough and lucky.
By the looks of how uniformally that rope "ruptured," it looks cut, but I have no idea how a chemically damaged rope would come apart so I'm just guessing.
Either way, till the test results come back we're all just talking out of our asses.
JL
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 23, 2006 - 09:00pm PT
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Riley,
well, acid damage still might not be as noticable as a cut or core shot, it would depend on the extent. But what the guy whose opinion I trust most, since he is a big deal at a rope company, told me is, that he feels from looking at the pic that the rope was cut.
He also said that he can't be certain without seeing the rope.
But that goes along more with your idea than acid or other chemical damage.
Your idea about why the damage might not be noticed seems plausible too.
Betcha the testing will tell most of the tale, if not all.
I'm still waiting to hear from my acquaintance about the chance of some sort of damage at a factory that could affect both sheath and core at the same point.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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May 23, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
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Sean or BVoyles: can anyone confirm that the rope was sent to BD? It is important that no one guess.
Who had the rope after the accident? Has that person confirmed that they sent the rope in? Date? Has anyone called to confirm that the rope was received? I am not hassling anyone, it is just that we all are VERY interested in their report. We all have trusted our lives to ropes hundreds/thousands of times in the past, will do so in the future. Ya got to trust your buddy, ya got to trust your rope.
As with all the others, glad to hear you are relatively OK (I am a doc, I have seen people die from falls much less than 25 feet), and both of you: thanks for posting. Some may still say HOAX, but I think most of us agree the story is real.
(Ain't ST great for being the forum where we can learn all this? Helps me to relax after a day seeing patients. Congrats to Chris Mac!)
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 23, 2006 - 11:33pm PT
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I agree that this has to be handled by folks who can determine what the heck happened. The dclimbing community needs to know about the outcome and the causes for such an unusual and terrifying accident.
My guess is that a rope manufacturer will not be set up to do a spectragraph (or whatever) test to determine chemical contamination, and a special lab will have to have a look at it to this end. If nobody wants to see this through send me the line and I'll get it done. I have plenty of friends over at CalTec who can do up that cord in no time.
JL
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Professor Fate
Big Wall climber
Vulgaria
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May 23, 2006 - 11:44pm PT
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Yes. I agree a climbing company like BD has no way of testing the rope. You need chemical engineers and forensic people that have the equipment. Someone smart should take up Mr Largo on that offer. Nothing like that here in Vegas, that's for darn shootin. It is one accident with the furthest reaching consequences I have heard of in 15 years of climbing.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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May 24, 2006 - 12:13am PT
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to borrow a phrase from click and clack; do you have any jilted ex-girlfriends around?
I once changed an auto battery while wearing new Levis. I didn't see any change in Levis, didn't even know I had gotten acid on them, until I washed them. They came out of machine with two huge holes across the front. Acid can be strong stuff but I don't think acid necessarily shows or changes the color.
Maybe time to reconsider twin rope techniques?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 24, 2006 - 12:30am PT
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My pal who is at a major rope company says beal made it and they will test it.
Betcha they know what needs to be done, and I'll also betcha they know more specifically about rope polymers than the gusy at university
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Professor Fate
Big Wall climber
Vulgaria
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May 24, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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I agree with dirtyeyes that getting it to a real rope company makes more sense than sending it to Black Diamond. I think this is very alarming and needs figuring out pronto. A company that made the rope would be able to determine quickly what happened, I think. But I also think chem engineers that work with all sorts of polymers would also be a good choice. Even better would be multiple testings by seperate labs that have no vested interest in the results. Just my two cents.
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BVoyles
climber
Davis, CA
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May 24, 2006 - 01:21am PT
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The rope ended up in my apartment after the accident. Its owner had a meeting today with some big shot at touchstone and took the rope with him. I know pipeworks wanted the rope from him to photograph and send off to be tested, but I am not sure if he gave it to them or not. I will ask him the next time I see him. It will get where it needs to go. I am as interested as all of you.
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