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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 29, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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Here is another way to look at it.
3/8ths inch rivet in the middle of A3+ hooking.
Or
3/8ths inch bolt with hanger in the middle of A3+ hooking.
Same pitch, same Protection, both drilled placements are good for a HUGE fall, belaying, etc....
Now, replace that 3/8ths inch rivet with a 5/16ths machine head,or another smaller, more common rivet.
Has the pitch changed in terms of commitment?
I ask because I use 5/16ths 3/4" Machine heads, and drill them a touch under 1/2" embedded depth. If I need protection I drill a bolt and put a hanger on it.
This thread is a bright light shining on the many different styles of creating a aid climb.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 29, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
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I would think that rivet you drill, Chief, would hold well over 500 pounds.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 29, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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^^^
At the very minimum, with a sloppy hole… You might as well put a hanger on them because that’s more of a bolt than a rivet, Chief. Are you placing them into an oversized 5/16” hole? I also don’t see how that could possibly be any quicker than placing a 5/16” machine-head, or even a 1/4” button-head. Why the jumbo rivets? Standard keyhole hangers won’t work on them, so a homemade, filed-out 3/8” hanger would be required if one wanted to use a keyhole hanger, rather than a wire. Wires/cable can be cut or become damaged on threads, hence the type of 5/16” machine-head rivets in my photo on the previous page (no threads next to hex head).
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 29, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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Again Vitaliy, do not become seduced by the arcane jargon and the minutiae of aid climbing....your future is in the mountains.
That said, a layman's knowledge of aid will be useful....I climbed the Salathe Wall and the Nose before I went to Patagonia.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 29, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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Shortest Straw has tons (100s?) of those machine head rivets on it. The T Moses hangers work nicely on them. They are rather reachy too...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 29, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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“The T Moses hangers work nicely…”
Ahh, I had forgotten that Theron makes a 3/8” heyhole hanger. Duh. Thanks for the reminder. I was thinking RP keyhole hangers.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 29, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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Therons keyhole hangers only work up to 5/16ths? or maybe I missed something?
I used them recently and thought they were WAY better than any other type I have used.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 29, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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T Moses hangars are the difference between looking ahead without worry and looking down with worry for me.
 - -
Crickets over at the Bigwall board.
Dude, seriously. I check at least twice a day. Just don't have anything to post in my life right now so... chirp chirp chirp.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 29, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
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Shhh, j-tree.....I'm trying to inspire(guilt?) some of the folk to actually post something.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 29, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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Chief, you must be referring to 5/16” machine-heads, which have been the standard size for grade 5 machine-head rivets for years. I’ve placed tons of the 5/16” size and they work great, as I mentioned earlier. The 3/8” machine-heads is what I was questioning.
But again, the problem with machine-heads is that they are difficult to cleanly remove in order to reuse the original hole for replacement. They’re not stainless and they’re not going to last forever. Better to be able to reuse the original hole than continue to drill new holes (i.e. use 1/4” button-heads…)
Using wired nuts for rivet hangers limits your reach because they are a lot longer than a standard cable rivet hanger or a keyhole hanger. Keyhole hangers work the best in this sense, and they are stronger and more durable than wires/cable.
Mucci…
http://mosesclimbing.com/rivet-hangers/
I prefer the RP keyhole hanger design because the biner is oriented parallel to the rock, rather than perpendicular to the rock. This can be preferable when using a keyhole hanger at a belay when you want to clip multiple biners to the main keyhole biner.
PFH also makes/made a keyhole hanger that orients the biner perpendicular to the rock. Another potential problem with this type of design is that to prevent leverage on the rivet, the right shape/size biner must be used. I have some PFH keyhole hangers but haven’t used them much although Mike and Gabe were complaining about the design a while back after a fall on Aurora where a rivet pulled. With the RP design, leverage on the rivet is minimized by keeping the biner parallel and flush with the rock.
RP keyhole hanger on the left, PFH keyhole hanger on the right:
CRICKETS!!!!!
: )
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 29, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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Godammit, Mineral Boy.....;-)
I'm workin' up a drunken rant....on a Monday, that could take a while.
Please Stand By.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 29, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
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Brief question about aid: What's it called if Mark Hudon sends a message from the middle of an El Cap route?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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used all of those hangers minerals, and tend to go with a small modified D when clipping in for the reasons you mentioned above.
I have SS rivets and prefer them in certain placements where the stone is ultra hard.
Of course how you prep your rivet on the wheel is going to determine how it's placed.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:18am PT
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Brief question about aid: What's it called if Mark Hudon sends a message from the middle of an El Cap route?
It's called "Sending" a text message Mouse. Sending is something Mark familiar with..haha!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:23am PT
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All these "Wall Climbers" inhabiting the Spew Board?
HA!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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“Godammit, Mineral Boy.....;-)”
Do they allow free climbers to spew over there…? I spend way too much time here as it is.
Let’s hear your drunken rant! Only had two Green Labels left so had to throw some Cobras from my Tuolumne-late-season-stash into the freezer to try to keep up!
Mucci, have the SS machine-heads been working ok for you?
Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )
“Of course how you prep your rivet on the wheel is going to determine how it's placed.”
Definitely. Depends on the rock too. Sometime you don’t even need to clean them up on a grinder. The machine-heads with the un-threaded section next to the hex head don’t come in a short length so you have to cut them to the preferred length with bolt cutters. In some cases, like on the S. Face of HD, they went in great without any grinding after cutting them down to length.
Jeremy, have you modified Spectres, etc. on a grinder? I made a few different versions of ‘em that worked well in that mud. Also modified some of the Pika ice pitons too by putting a knifeblade taper on ‘em with a grinder. What were those things called…? Arkee? I forget, and mine are in storage. Can’t find any with a Google image search. Anyways, killer little modified piece. But not to worry, the #3 Tomahawks are on the way and you will be psyched!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:40am PT
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Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )
You mean the ones I pulled out accidentally with my fingers, & quickly put back? Yeesh. They Still held body weight. I checked. Once, anyway.
I may not get drunk enough to rant, this night....It's comin', though.
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