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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 26, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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Thread for asking/answering questions....
I have one to start:
At times when I encounter bolt ladders on routes, the bolts are not spaced very close to each other (for example the reachy bolt ladder on the Prow). I can't really see a way how someone would drill a hole for a bolt by hand that would be so far up (I am 6'2 and it wasn't that easy for me to reach and clip those bolts!). Were there some intermediate bolts taken out and the holes patched? Or was the guy so skilled and had a giant reach?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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robbins is a tall f*#ker u should see the bolt ladder on the Tis-sa-sack!
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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maybe a hook was used? Or maybe the FA guys just taped the hammer to their huge dicks and swung that?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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Wood platforms made of 2x4's, stand on the bottom bolt.
Skystairs there called....
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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Or maybe the FA guys just taped the hammer to their huge dicks and swung that?
So far this is the best answer.
But seriously though. Is there a video of someone putting up a bolt ladder? Would be interesting to see them doing it on the Leconte boulder (that thing is pretty steep!)..
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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Robbins is not really that tall, those guys simply knew how to get into their top-steps and SUFFER!
Most aid climbers climb far too often in their lower aid steps. Me, being short, am always in at least my second step and quite often the top step. I'm 5'2", have long arms, and have never come across a bolt ladder I couldn't climb (the Prow included).
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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I've always wondered that too. When I did Zodiac a gazillon years ago, I came away thinking that Charlie Porter must be tall, since I'm 5'7" and really had to reach like hell to clip bolts. I later learned he's only about my height.
The short answer is high stepping. If it's too steep to stand in your top or second to top aider, you can rig a daisy chain to your harness that will help you high step, even on slightly overhanging stuff. It still baffles me how someone could stand in that position for 20 to 30 minutes while they drilled a bolt. Hard work that.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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It still baffles me how someone could stand in that position for 20 to 30 minutes while they drilled a bolt.
Yes! That! Or did they use a power drill? I mean...that bolt ladder is pretty long.
What stuns me though is these bolts are so far apart, but the bashed out piton holes on Serenity crack are like a foot apart. So why aren't those further apart if guys could have top stepped (terrain there is less steep too)?
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Keith Leaman
Trad climber
Seattle
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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We called them "hero loops".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
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Power drills....my, my Vitaliy, you know your Valley history better than that. As Mark said, they knew how to suffer......and endure.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
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But world-class aid climbers like Pelut don't even get into their second steps.
Aid climbing is like politics: it's all about the spin.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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Jeremy, yeah, on a good day... I'm starting to shrink already, I used to be 5'2.75" but now I'm really 5'1.875" at best!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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Ron ain't no giant either! I suspect he knows how to suffer though!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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Seriously, I don't get it. How were the guys able to drill in bolts so far apart from each other, and couldn't hammer in pitons further than a foot apart(like on serenity)? Dudes today suffer to clip those bolts with a cheater stick (I saw some people use those)! Did they seriously not have any removed that were closer?
I guess bolt ladders were also an art.
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giegs
climber
Tardistan
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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Ropes for solos with approaches more than a couple miles:
I've got a pair of Accelerators that suck to carry. How can a lazy guy schlepp 2 ropes, gear, beer, and enough spare underwear and toilet paper for a 2-3 pitch tower? Anybody using a piece of string for their second?
Is this the future?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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Vitaliy,
You're thinking of it wrong. All those scars on Serenity aren't done by one person and aren't indicative of anyone's individual reach. Certainly, on Serenity, you could lie on the slab and maybe even stand on top of the actual pin (we used to do that) to reach as far as possible. Other people would nail from their third steps and still others from their fourth step. Eventually someone would place a pin, and start a scar, in between existing scars and eventually you'd have scars every six inches, just like on the Shield now.
Top stepping, and even Hero stepping, is hard work and just like everything else, people don't like hard work and start nailing from the comfortable position of their third steps. It's ridiculous but people do it.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
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Top stepping, and even Hero stepping, is hard work and just like everything else, people don't like hard work and start nailing from the comfortable position of their third steps. It's ridiculous but people do it. I've never really understood that approach to parking it low in your aiders. I always had hero loops and tried to use them whenever possible. Whether it's moving faster, placing less gear, conserving gear, or just being relatively short, I feel like I'm getting it done.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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Why limit yourself to just a flimsy fabric ladder (the aiders)? With a rigid aluminum ladder you could drill 20 - 40 feet above your last solid placement.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
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Thank you Dr. F and Mark. Very helpful answers. Those guys must of worn real stiff boots for standing high in the aiders for so long.
Is there a book to read about evolution of dirty aid and what is accepted in today's world of aid on international stage?
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
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For me it was all about customizing my fifi length to my height and leg length. Once I had that dialed being stable in the 2nd step is super easy, and allows me to reach the spaciest bolt ladders I've encountered (prow included).
Like chris mac said in once of his aid articles, "no fooling around...get up in those aiders fast!". practice this mantra while leading and you'll get faster super quick.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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Ron also has some ballast above his belt buckle that keeps him in balance.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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Jeremy, yeah, on a good day... I'm starting to shrink already, I used to be 5'2.75" but now I'm really 5'1.875" at best!
I can relate! I was 5'5" but now it's about 1/2" shorter -- and shrinking. I learned early that I had to get into the highest steps possible in my aid slings (See how old school I am? None of this aiders stuff.) Unlike you, Mark, my arms are short, though, so I use an extension arm, consisting of an old-style Chouinard Cliffhanger in an old-style Yosemite Hammer to make particularly reachy clips.
Incidentally, Robbins (who was not particularly tall himself) was quite proud of the bolt ladders he put in on Tis-sa-ack and The Prow, and bragged about them in his write-ups of their first ascents. Also, on The Prow, there were occasional marginal aid placements between a few of the bolts.
John
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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Like chris mac said in once of his aid articles, "no fooling around...get up in those aiders fast!". practice this mantra while leading and you'll get faster super quick.
+1
efficiency helps a lot. I saw a lot of improvement in the speed 1st to 2nd wall. On my first wall I did not see how it was possible at all to do more than 4 pitches of aid per day lol. Walls are interesting in a way.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Keep that wall urge under control Vitaliy....you seem destined for the mountains.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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V,
Have you ever heard of "Tee'ing" off?
Ron O. has a clean climbing video floating around that shows this technique in action.
I suspect there is a video on youtube.
If you cross one foot in front of the other in your top step, it stabilizes the stance.
It doesn't work for overhanging, as far as I know, but it really does help on vertical to less than vertical.
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m_jones
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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Yes I wondered that as well. Last year on South Seas the bolt ladders seriously worked me. I was aghast at how much actually! had totally forgotten about the total body strength required to top step on a 95 degree wall.
I found this year that clipping my chest harness to my harness helped me top step easier plus from climbing a bit this summer had regained some of the core strength specific to climbing.
We joked that you pretty much had to climb full time just to be fit enough to climb occasionally!
Still - remarkable on the first ascents the work required to drill!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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Keep that wall urge under control Vitaliy....you seem destined for the mountains.
It would be nice to combine mountains, ability to free climb harder terrain (than i can now), and wall skills. Than I can finally complete that Latok climb! ;)
Have you ever heard of "Tee'ing" off?
no
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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You're the man...that puppy (Latok) needs some closure!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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for now im jk about Latok of course...I am sure it will be done by someone before I get enough skills/balls to go there.
How hard does one need to climb to give it a realistic attempt? That ridge is beautiful.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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The skills must be there but TENACITY is the word....oh, and throw in a little luck.
Who knows, it might still be there for you....it has been 34 years- who would've thunk.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 26, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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Talk about speed, I heard those two rocked Wet Denim yesterday!
I was told The Reticent has extremely reachy ladders. Brother A said he could barely reach 'em at all, and he's no shorty. Gerby had a technique, I suppose.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Oct 26, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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It could all be explained by the use of balance placements. These are intermediate placements, only able to hold a few pounds, so you can pull yourself in one direction or the other, or to pull you into the wall. Tiny copperheads (hooks too) are excellent for this. Yanking the head when cleaning will often destroy the small flake that was used, making it all a mystery to a later party.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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had to bump Latok thread since it is mentioned. But seriously, how hard would the rock ratings feel? Would one have to lead at least solid 5.11/wi5 before thinking of going there?
this move ya do where ya step high way up in your top step - and ya sort of leverage with your fifi or a quickdraw and ya pop way up done that a few times. Hard to do if terrain is even slightly overhanging.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 26, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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Yup… Gerberding, Middendorf, etc.
But I’m not buying any of this 15 or 30 minutes to place a bolt or a rivet on a ladder. No way, especially if placing rivets of any sort. Should be maybe 5 minutes per rivet, 10 minutes max if you are lazy and slow and are placing longer 1/4” bolts. If you are quick, a machine-head rivet might take about 2 or 3 minutes to place. High-speed steel drill bits have been around forever; it’s not exactly new technology.
Mark, go check out the 4th pitch ladder on Cataclysmic Megasheer on the S. Face of HD. ; )
Another reason why the scars are so close together on Serenity is that once a placement became so scarred and ‘boxed-out’, it became more difficult to use. So, climbers resorted to using a much thinner pin in a new placement, which of course, suffered the same fate as the older placements. With time, the crack was basically turned into a line of square holes.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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It's not so much the difficulty of individual moves Vitaliy. We were all on the cutting edge of climbing for that era. You need to be able to summon up something near your A game each and every day. You need to be able to stay alert and focused even when desperately tired or dealing with atrocious weather and conditions. We had to make 85 single anchor raps in bad weather, while tired and with no food....and, not have one of them fail.
The more time you spend in the mountains, the more obstacles you overcome, the more ready you will be for such a climb.
It's not about the parts; rock and ice climbing ability, experience, endurance, ability to suffer, ambition, tenacity, strategic planning, focus....it's about the sum of the parts, and, most importantly, your PARTNERS.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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Ron...it was a compliment, you always amaze me!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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Thank you for the post, Jim. Climbs like that is what climbing is about. You guys succeeded to get the best experience out of that route, that's for sure. Not a happy end, but a true experience. Something you are proud to give your best and survive you know? Awesome posts on those other threads.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 26, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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Well I guess I need to use emoticons that wink.
A year ago (and more) I was packin' around a bit much.
Look, you do the geezer crack climber thing and I'll do the wall/remote/drill thing. Kay?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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Yeah...let's divide and conquer!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 26, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
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hyper-psyche
and homemade buscuits.
vitality,
you gotta stand on the shoulders
of your's own vitality,
which is upon substances
such as wayward dreams
and anti-understandings.
vertical is merely
the step-master of infinity.
you already got everywhere tamed,
so walk bravely up your fabric ladder
and poke god in the eye.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 26, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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Yesterday I measured at 14.5% body fat ya geezer!
Wow Ron, getting those teeth removed can make that much difference? I gotta find me a dentist who can do that.....
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Jumpingfish
Social climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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Good read...I almost want to climb something.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 26, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
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The following were placed with a rawl drill and chisel tip bit.
1/4" x 1" button head - 4:37 sec
5/16ths x 1/2" embedded length machine head rivet - <2min
Who in the hell was taking 10, 20 or even 30 min per bolt?
Oh and just try drilling a off angle ladder, Ie...right hander drilling up and left....
See how far the spacing is then....
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
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1/4" x 1" button head - 4:37 sec
5/16ths x 1/2" embedded length machine head rivet - <2min
Dude! Mucci! This thread is supposed to be for noobs to ask questions! You know how many questions I have for you after reading that? !
Let's start from 'what the hell is a button head?!' Is that those cheap little things you put a rivet on?
machine head rivet
don't even know where to start here...
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 26, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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I've met robbins and yes he's a shorty but must have been f*#k'n tall when he placed those 1/2ass bolt ladder's on the t-sac. the prow is a short little bad ass route.
get on it!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
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button heads are a type of bolt (not a rivet) with a rounded unfeatured head
Yes. So you put a rivet on a button head, correct? (that was my question)
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 26, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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“5 minute 1/4" bolts??? using a hammer
That, I have never seen”
I’ve placed 1/4” x 1 1/2” buttonheads (not rivets…) while drilling on lead from a stance in Tuolumne in about 2.5 minutes. Not such a big deal if you’ve got your drilling system down and aren’t swinging a tack hammer. Being a little gripped helps too. But that’s not aid climbing…
Not sure what kind of bits Robbins was using. Anyone know?
From another post in this thread:
“It still baffles me how someone could stand in that position for 20 to 30 minutes while they drilled a bolt.”
Power drills suck.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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On the Prow, RR had a secret weapon - Glen Denny - which explains the distance between bolts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 26, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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Hey crunch the teeth weren't THAT fat.
Was it the bone graft?
I have sometimes used a quickie on lead and then re-drilled it and sunk a good one with a top rope, but, for example, those ladders on Prodigal are all "lead" spacing.
With good technique ample spacing is easy enough, or you can go with twin aiders and fifi hooks and pulling against your own pushing and the smug assurance that you are "traditional".
I know which is more efficient for me.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Oct 26, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
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those guys simply knew how to get into their top-steps and SUFFER!
1+
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Oct 26, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
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I'm 5'9" and had no problems with the reach on the bolts on the Prow with second steps. WTF?
The only exception was a head that blew on P5. I had to make a stiff draw to reach past the gummed up head location to the next bolt.
Sack up man.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
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Moof you coming out to Beacon tomorrow?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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Sack up man.
Is that directed at me? Would love to hear it in real life so I could knock some of your teeth out.
Did I imply I was afraid of a bolt ladder? My post is to find out how do FAists keep it so well spaced, since some (like me) do not find it that easy to clip the bolts without a huge reach (I would not be able to hammer sh#t while reaching like that). Not scared, curious.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 26, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
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^^^^^That's what I thought!
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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Gene for the win!!
Denny is/was 6'5" if I remember correctly.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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Vitya, my son, you know how it is here; the Illuminati aren't gonna give up
their arcane secrets without spitting on you a little, especially if you're sincere.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 26, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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Vitaliy M.,
In a basic sense, bolts have hangers and rivets do not. Rivets require either a rivet hanger (cable loop) or a keyhole hanger (like a bolt hanger but with a slot to enable it to be slid on and off of a rivet). Keyhole hangers are usually stronger than cable rivet hangers and once clipped, can’t come off of a rivet (i.e. RP keyhole hanger and 5/16” machine-head rivet combo).
Hopefully this will help.
Bolts and Rivets for Granite
1.) 1/4” x 1 1/2” split-shank button-head bolt (zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). Button-heads can be placed as rivets as well, but the use of a couple of 5/16” washers on the button-head helps to keep both a cable rivet hanger or a keyhole hanger from coming off of the button-head.
2.) 1/4” x 1 1/4” split-shank button-head bolt (zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). This is a “shorty” button-head bolt. They can be used as a rivet, with or without a washer, but without a washer it would be best to place a cinch-type cable rivet hanger on it to ensure that the rivet stays clipped to the rope. Some climbers use these “shorty” button-heads for drilling on lead while free climbing, but in my opinion, you might as well just place the longer (1 1/2”) version.
3.) Long 5/16” machine-head rivet (grade 5, zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). This rivet is longer than a ‘standard’ length rivet and might be used at a belay, or for a more solid rivet, rather than on a rivet ladder.
4.) 5/16” machine-head rivet (grade 5, zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). This is a ‘standard’ length rivet for use on a rivet ladder or to connect features across blank sections of rock.
Machine-head rivets have an advantage over button-heads in that they require a shallower hole (less drill time), they work great with RP-style keyhole hangers (hanger can’t come off of machine-head once hanger is clipped with biner), and they are generally stronger than a button-head if placed properly.
The downside is that they are not stainless (stainless is too soft for use as a machine-head rivet) and they are very difficult to cleanly remove in order to reuse the original hole when due for replacement. The outer portion of the hole will usually crater when trying to pull a well-placed machine-head. In this sense, 1/4” button-heads are better for use as a rivet because they can be pulled cleanly in order to reuse the original hole during replacement.
5.) 1/4” x 1 1/2” button-head bolt with stainless 5/16” SMC hanger. This is my favorite quarter-inch combo for stance drilling on lead. Once tapped through the 5/16” hole, the button-head won’t fall out of the hanger and you can clip it to your harness, etc. for quick access when stance drilling.
All of the above bolts and rivets (1. - 5.) work on the basis of compression; that is, they are larger in diameter than the hole and are forced into the hole with a hammer.
6.) 3/8” x 2 1/4” stainless 5-piece bolt with stainless 3/8” Metolius hanger. This size bolt is the modern standard for granite, both for free climbs as well as for belays/anchors on walls. This is the bolt that the ASCA uses for bolt replacement in hard rock (granite). It is tapped into the hole and then a wrench is used to tighten the bolt, which draws the cone (end piece on bolt) into the sleeve, thus expanding the sleeve to ‘lock’ the bolt in the hole.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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Minerals, wow, thank you for posting such a detailed answer. It does help a lot. For some reason I thought cable rivet hangers were called 'rivets.' I did not realize that 'rivet' is a type of a smaller bolt so to say. Thank you for clarifying.
Is there a book or a web site where I can research these things? I read "Big Wall Climbing: Elite Technique" a while ago, but thought it was mostly an overview of the subject and very general...
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 27, 2012 - 12:29am PT
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www.bigwalls.net
Click on the forum button. We LOVE stupid questions. It doesn't get the traffic of this place, so please be patient.
Cheers!
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giegs
climber
Tardistan
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Oct 27, 2012 - 01:00am PT
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What's best practice for bailing on a pitch of questionable gear? Hell, even good gear. Assuming you've fallen a couple times on your last piece it's probably not terrible, but I'm a scaredy cat. Obviously you're going to want to clean most pieces on the way down but where to stop/finish? Trust in your last two or three pieces and hope for the best? Wait for your nuts to descend on their own? Down aid while cleaning?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 27, 2012 - 01:04am PT
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Back to The Prow for a second. I think the bolt ladders with the long reaches were mostly put in by Robbins and Mike Covington. Denney led a few of the higher pitches, but mostly above the bolt ladders.
John
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Oct 27, 2012 - 01:10am PT
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The future of aid climbing. Remote control drilling from
the comfort of your porta ledge.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 27, 2012 - 10:12am PT
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Stupid Question:
For difficult hooking sequences is it standard to use adjustable daisy's to better keep tension on your placement?
I can't remember who it was on here but they had fabricated adjustable daisy's using 8mm cord with a ropeman or equivalent as their attachment point. Quite creative I must say since as soon as you get a placement you can reel in slack and gently weight the piece.
Thus far all I've used is standard daisy's on routes up to C2. Looking for some techniques to help make the next few C2 and C3 routes quicker and more managable in the difficult sections.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 27, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Glad that helped, Vitaliy.
I forgot to mention that when trying to pull a solid 5/16” machine-head rivet for replacement, the rivet will often break somewhere along the threads, which leaves part of the rivet in the hole, making the hole useless for replacement. A new hole must then be drilled. Not good.
There’s a lot of info here and there in this forum, but because there is basically zero organization here, it’s tough to search for info unless you know exactly what (thread) you are looking for.
Here’s a crappy old photo that shows a bunch of different cable gear, including different types of rivet hangers. You can find the photo and a list of the different items towards the end of the thread linked below, along with a bunch of other info on copperheads, etc.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/28147/How-To-Make-A-2-Copperhead-And-Everything-Else
Edit: I’m not familiar with Jared’s book, but if you haven’t read it, you might also check out the John Long and John Middendorf book. It’s got some good stuff in it, along with great illustrations by John McMullen. Maybe they should have just called it… The Book of John…
http://www.amazon.com/How-Climb-Big-Walls-Series/dp/0934641633
Here’s a 1/4” x 1 1/2” button-head with two washers, placed as a rivet. The rivet/keyhole hanger is placed between the rock and the washers. When it’s time to pull the button-head for replacement, a tuning fork can be placed between the two washers in order to help protect the rock from the tuning fork and to support the head of the bolt.
And for an extra-extraneous bit of irrelevant trivia… The bolt/rivet photo in the post above brought my total number of uploads to my Photobucket account to 666… Cool!!! >: )>
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Oct 27, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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Wow Ron, getting those teeth removed can make that much difference? I gotta find me a dentist who can do that.....
hahahahaha
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Oct 27, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
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I'm 5'9" and had no problems with the reach on the bolts on the Prow with second steps. WTF?
There is a world of difference between clipping a bolt ladder and drilling from the top step of your etiers.
Any two-bit 5'9" climbing can clip a bolt ladder... It takes someone tall to actually drill good holes for a ladder.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
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Minerals thank you for posting another great reply.
Stupid Question:
For difficult hooking sequences is it standard to use adjustable daisy's to better keep tension on your placement?
I can't remember who it was on here but they had fabricated adjustable daisy's using 8mm cord with a ropeman or equivalent as their attachment point. Quite creative I must say since as soon as you get a placement you can reel in slack and gently weight the piece.
hmmmm good question for someone with more knowledge. So far I can't see how adjustable daisy would help much. Isn't it more about how you load the hook while transitioning your weight to it?
I have an adjustable daisy, and like it very much though.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 28, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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Most hook placements you'll come across are well used and have a little divot that has been worn out by the hook's metal that and are really no big deal. Reach up, feel around for the divot, select the appropriate hook and there ya go. Easy Peasy
I find that placements that are far off to the side, for both finding the placement, setting the hook, and climbing onto it, are the most challenging. If you're on a hook, trying to lean out to find a placement is tricky since you don't want your legs to swing out the opposite direction, and then mounting the hook, since you want to apply a straight down force onto it, is also tricky.
For leaning out to the side you can't get too low in your slings since you don't want to lose too much horizontal reach, you just have to make sure your balance is true. For mounting the new hook, getting low in your steps and moving over low, will decrease the angle from one hook to another.
The only use a daisy is that if you blow either hook, you won't lose them.
Top stepping off a hook greatly depends on the placement. If it's one of those placements that are behind a little ridge, as most are, if you're moderately careful, it's no big deal. If the placement is on a flat edge, you have to be delicate.
For a hook placement that I can't see, a daisy is a big plus. I'll attach the daisy and sink down onto it and slowly move up my ladders till I can see the hook and evaluate it.
A hook on a very small divot. Don't be doing no break dancing on this one!
You might want to be careful on this one since it looks like a hook has already broken off the edge to the hook's left.
A freakin' bomber, fall holding, Meat Hook!
This will be your most common hook placement. Tape it down, put a Screamer on it and don't worry about it.
Starting the crux pitch of Lost in America.
All in all, this section isn't too bad since the hooks are pretty good, you're moving out horizontal from the anchor, the rock is smooth and overhangs below the anchor. A fall would be a big swing but not dangerous. I don't know why I haven't removed that first hook and put it away yet, maybe I'm thinking that I'll need it again soon.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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Great post, the Chief. Value your knowledge on the subject. Interesting look at the history too. I notice a lot of hypocrisy in climbing world.
One observation: the climber in the photo is drilling about two feet above the point of aid he is standing on (way down in his aiders). Is that because he is on a hook and you don't walk up high on those?
I am thinking of learning to solo on silent partner or something. It takes a lot of time to belay ETC on walls. And if you do it alone there would be no one else to blame etc. Hard to arrange the right time to do a wall with a partner. For most people it is a big deal and you need a whole vacation. I loved doing the Prow since we did it fast. And liked my partner too.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Oct 29, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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Vitaliy, when I've got some time on my hands and no one to climb with, I'll go fix a line at a local crag and micro trax self belay and aid up it. On the top rope you can try all sorts of hook placements (some way sketchy) to see what holds and what doesn't. Also, you don't need a belayer getting bored while you screw around
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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Where, at Castle Rock?
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Oct 29, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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Typically I'll go to Guadalupe rock because it's the closest spot to me. It's not the best spot in the world, but hey it's rock!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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Riley are you serious? I am game if you are. As long as I don't have to lead anything harder than C3 at this point. Or C3+. If you know any spots to TR A5 hooks or something that actually trains skills, would be happy to. I don't understand the ratings all too well at this point. Aid ratings are kind of bullsh#t. Popular routes have so much fixed stuff on them that it is like doing a long bolt ladder with occasional move in between and occasional crack with a bunch of offset placements.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 29, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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Popular routes have so much fixed stuff on them that it is like doing a long bolt ladder with occasional move in between and occasional crack with a bunch of offset placements.
Sounds like you want to learn how to AID climb.
Get on something that hasn't been banged out like a cheap whore.
An early repeat of a smaller wall will teach you more that 10 ascents of the milk runs.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 29, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
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Why do you use 3/8ths inch rivets Chief?
Do you think they are more commiting than a 1/4" bolt with hanger?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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your skinny 6'2" tall ass
I wish I was skinny. 190 lbs. At least not 300 like I used to be. Last year in mid summer I was 205, so making progress. I want to get down to 175 or so. Less weight=less weight to pull up.
mucci +10000. For now I feel like I need to do a few more 'trade' routes to at least get my sh#t better together. I saw a huge progress from my first to second to third wall so far. There are a few obscure walls I would like to try...
Riley, lets do some route on Watchtower in winter. http://www.summitpost.org/the-watchtower/150902
Go out there, climb some ice, do a wall, post some pictures for Chief to hate on=BLAST. Some guys did a route on that wall in Winter and said it was fun. I read a nice report:
http://www.rockclimbing.org/tripreports/watchtower.htm
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 29, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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I don't know about that 500lb rating cheif....
I do however agree that rivets are NOT protection, rather progression tools much like the infamous bathook holes.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 29, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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Here is another way to look at it.
3/8ths inch rivet in the middle of A3+ hooking.
Or
3/8ths inch bolt with hanger in the middle of A3+ hooking.
Same pitch, same Protection, both drilled placements are good for a HUGE fall, belaying, etc....
Now, replace that 3/8ths inch rivet with a 5/16ths machine head,or another smaller, more common rivet.
Has the pitch changed in terms of commitment?
I ask because I use 5/16ths 3/4" Machine heads, and drill them a touch under 1/2" embedded depth. If I need protection I drill a bolt and put a hanger on it.
This thread is a bright light shining on the many different styles of creating a aid climb.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 29, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
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I would think that rivet you drill, Chief, would hold well over 500 pounds.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 29, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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^^^
At the very minimum, with a sloppy hole… You might as well put a hanger on them because that’s more of a bolt than a rivet, Chief. Are you placing them into an oversized 5/16” hole? I also don’t see how that could possibly be any quicker than placing a 5/16” machine-head, or even a 1/4” button-head. Why the jumbo rivets? Standard keyhole hangers won’t work on them, so a homemade, filed-out 3/8” hanger would be required if one wanted to use a keyhole hanger, rather than a wire. Wires/cable can be cut or become damaged on threads, hence the type of 5/16” machine-head rivets in my photo on the previous page (no threads next to hex head).
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 29, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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Again Vitaliy, do not become seduced by the arcane jargon and the minutiae of aid climbing....your future is in the mountains.
That said, a layman's knowledge of aid will be useful....I climbed the Salathe Wall and the Nose before I went to Patagonia.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 29, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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Shortest Straw has tons (100s?) of those machine head rivets on it. The T Moses hangers work nicely on them. They are rather reachy too...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 29, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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“The T Moses hangers work nicely…”
Ahh, I had forgotten that Theron makes a 3/8” heyhole hanger. Duh. Thanks for the reminder. I was thinking RP keyhole hangers.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 29, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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Therons keyhole hangers only work up to 5/16ths? or maybe I missed something?
I used them recently and thought they were WAY better than any other type I have used.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 29, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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T Moses hangars are the difference between looking ahead without worry and looking down with worry for me.
 - -
Crickets over at the Bigwall board.
Dude, seriously. I check at least twice a day. Just don't have anything to post in my life right now so... chirp chirp chirp.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 29, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
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Shhh, j-tree.....I'm trying to inspire(guilt?) some of the folk to actually post something.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 29, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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Chief, you must be referring to 5/16” machine-heads, which have been the standard size for grade 5 machine-head rivets for years. I’ve placed tons of the 5/16” size and they work great, as I mentioned earlier. The 3/8” machine-heads is what I was questioning.
But again, the problem with machine-heads is that they are difficult to cleanly remove in order to reuse the original hole for replacement. They’re not stainless and they’re not going to last forever. Better to be able to reuse the original hole than continue to drill new holes (i.e. use 1/4” button-heads…)
Using wired nuts for rivet hangers limits your reach because they are a lot longer than a standard cable rivet hanger or a keyhole hanger. Keyhole hangers work the best in this sense, and they are stronger and more durable than wires/cable.
Mucci…
http://mosesclimbing.com/rivet-hangers/
I prefer the RP keyhole hanger design because the biner is oriented parallel to the rock, rather than perpendicular to the rock. This can be preferable when using a keyhole hanger at a belay when you want to clip multiple biners to the main keyhole biner.
PFH also makes/made a keyhole hanger that orients the biner perpendicular to the rock. Another potential problem with this type of design is that to prevent leverage on the rivet, the right shape/size biner must be used. I have some PFH keyhole hangers but haven’t used them much although Mike and Gabe were complaining about the design a while back after a fall on Aurora where a rivet pulled. With the RP design, leverage on the rivet is minimized by keeping the biner parallel and flush with the rock.
RP keyhole hanger on the left, PFH keyhole hanger on the right:
CRICKETS!!!!!
: )
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 29, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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Godammit, Mineral Boy.....;-)
I'm workin' up a drunken rant....on a Monday, that could take a while.
Please Stand By.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 29, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
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Brief question about aid: What's it called if Mark Hudon sends a message from the middle of an El Cap route?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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used all of those hangers minerals, and tend to go with a small modified D when clipping in for the reasons you mentioned above.
I have SS rivets and prefer them in certain placements where the stone is ultra hard.
Of course how you prep your rivet on the wheel is going to determine how it's placed.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:18am PT
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Brief question about aid: What's it called if Mark Hudon sends a message from the middle of an El Cap route?
It's called "Sending" a text message Mouse. Sending is something Mark familiar with..haha!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:23am PT
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All these "Wall Climbers" inhabiting the Spew Board?
HA!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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“Godammit, Mineral Boy.....;-)”
Do they allow free climbers to spew over there…? I spend way too much time here as it is.
Let’s hear your drunken rant! Only had two Green Labels left so had to throw some Cobras from my Tuolumne-late-season-stash into the freezer to try to keep up!
Mucci, have the SS machine-heads been working ok for you?
Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )
“Of course how you prep your rivet on the wheel is going to determine how it's placed.”
Definitely. Depends on the rock too. Sometime you don’t even need to clean them up on a grinder. The machine-heads with the un-threaded section next to the hex head don’t come in a short length so you have to cut them to the preferred length with bolt cutters. In some cases, like on the S. Face of HD, they went in great without any grinding after cutting them down to length.
Jeremy, have you modified Spectres, etc. on a grinder? I made a few different versions of ‘em that worked well in that mud. Also modified some of the Pika ice pitons too by putting a knifeblade taper on ‘em with a grinder. What were those things called…? Arkee? I forget, and mine are in storage. Can’t find any with a Google image search. Anyways, killer little modified piece. But not to worry, the #3 Tomahawks are on the way and you will be psyched!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:40am PT
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Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )
You mean the ones I pulled out accidentally with my fingers, & quickly put back? Yeesh. They Still held body weight. I checked. Once, anyway.
I may not get drunk enough to rant, this night....It's comin', though.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:52am PT
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E-nail.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 30, 2012 - 01:08am PT
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Is there a video of someone putting up a bolt ladder?
Major boring, pun intended.
I was going to suggest hero loops, since VM's new to nail-ups, obvious to the most casual, cynical old iron banger.
I posted a picture on the Oakdale show-and-tell thread that PO posted of a RR magic moment.
The hero loop's the ticket, V, as someone mentioned...
It's maybe fifty cents worth of webbing that can save you lots of time on a ladder.
You do any more, without a couple on your rack, you're a silly boy.
My two-loop aid slings (I'm in total agreement with Tom Frost on this, I believe) were alway equipped with sub-aiders and hero loops.
The maxim for bolt ladders is simple, don't slow down. You are in little danger. You can rest at the anchor.
This is the ticket if your pard's dicking around reaching for it.
MOVE IT, ASSWIPE is not subtle enough. You should both master "half-inch heroism," as Millis the Mentor put it.
Don't fail to try fi-fi hooks, either. These make it all worth while for the time they save. LeConte, hallowed though it is, isn't a good place to practice this technique. Just get on a Five and practice.
I can't think of anyplace else in the Valley, though Mickey's Beach might still provide a bolt ladder. Haven't been round there in years. That is, if you find yourself in the city on a weekend, which isn't your style.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 30, 2012 - 01:32am PT
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Thanks for the clarification, Chief.
Middendorf and Bridwell did some hardware testing years ago and put numbers to actual pieces placed, as far as force required to break/pull rivets and bolts of various types and sizes. Not sure if it was ever published online, but I have a copy somewhere. I did some very archaic testing of rivets and bolts in some solid granite around here, with a 10-lb. sledgehammer and a ~3-foot funkness device made of doubled #4 cable. Although not terribly scientific, the results were quite interesting.
I would say that a longer grade 5, 5/16” machine-head rivet that is well-placed will hold any fall thrown at it. A well-placed grade 5, 3/8” machine-head “rivet” might even hold my truck. I found that a bomber 5/16” machine-head withstood more sledgehammer abuse in both tension and sheer before it pulled than did a bomber 1/4” x 1 1/2” button-head with a hanger. If properly placed, a machine-head can be surprisingly strong, especially considering that it’s placed in such a shallow hole. This, of course, is dependent on rock quality.
“I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.”
Why?
And in response to this earlier question that never got a reply…
“What's best practice for bailing on a pitch of questionable gear? Hell, even good gear…”
If you aren’t too far above the belay and it’s possible, down-aiding while cleaning might be your best bet. If you are a ways up a pitch, you might be better off building a small anchor to be lowered from (if you are less than half-a-rope-length out) or rap from (if you are past half-rope). In any case, you are going to have to sacrifice some gear to leave – better off finding a spot on the pitch where you can leave heads, or pins, or wired nuts. Bailing from cams could get expensive.
If you build a small anchor consisting of two or three pieces that are placed close together, you can equalize them. This would be much better than just leaving your last two or three placements in hopes that the lower pieces will ‘back-up’ the upper piece, should it fail. Just make sure that the pieces in your anchor are good. If in doubt, add an extra piece to your anchor so that you are sure that it’s solid. No sense in getting hurt while bailing.
However, the best option by far is to have your belayer send you a beer on the tag line and then finish leading the pitch! But don’t forget to have fun too.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2012 - 01:44am PT
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Vitally - just so poor Donini doesn't have a stroke..
I'm game for Pakistan on my next big trip...yayayaya
Let's start with Kings Canyon! LOL
PS: Wish I could understand the discussion Chief, Minerals, mucci, Jeremy etc are having about different sizes of rivets and how drilling some of those is almost as good as a bolt....interesting stuff...
Can you guys explain what is currently acceptable for first ascents on walls? As I understand the less bolts is better, and if you have to drill you better do a lot of hooking and maybe do a few moves on drilled holes with a bat hook before you put in a rivet? People do not do bolt ladders any longer?
Jim, I hope to do more and more peaks in the future. I think it is good for me to learn some basics (at least) about all kinds of climbing to be more or less complete.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 30, 2012 - 06:45am PT
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This is a great thread!
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whitemeat
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Oct 30, 2012 - 10:46am PT
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how does the follower clean a "tension traverse" For example pitch 3 of the Nose. But not when its a pendulum and the leader just runs it out till the rope is straight up and down, because then it would not be a problem for example Pitch 6south central on the column.
Please try to include pictures !!!!!!
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whitemeat
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Oct 30, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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wow thats a very good video grippa, thanks alot !!!!!!!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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Any thoughts about using a 'Silent Partner' for soloing walls? A lot of people use grigris. What are advantages?
What set up do majority of people who solo walls use?
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 28, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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I have a silent partner that I have used doing "practice" aiding but haven't used it on a wall yet. It scares the sh#t out of me everytime, but so far it's always caught me.
Different question....
What's the story behind the OLD rivet ladder on the south side of the Columbia boulder in camp 4. It would be fun practice if the things weren't old as sh#t and the first one wasn't hammered flat....
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 28, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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if you have to drill you better do a lot of hooking and maybe do a few moves on drilled holes with a bat hook before you put in a rivet? People do not do bolt ladders any longer?
Drilled holes on a ladder are BS, nobody on a FA is in that much of a hurry.
If your gonna drill a ladder, you make every attempt to hook naturally btw rivets or bolts, if that does not work out, it's all steel all the way.
Manufacturing difficulty on blank stone is chump.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 28, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
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nobody on a FA is in that much of a hurry.
But our Vitya is headed to the great ranges where time is money, and life.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 28, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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What's the story behind the OLD rivet ladder on the south side of the Columbia boulder in camp 4.
As it must now be more than 50 years old, it might be considered a historical/archaeological relic, and so not to be touched.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Nov 28, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
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Is that the belay?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 28, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
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Would you prefer it melted in your mouth?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Nov 28, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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As fare as Silent Partner vs. Gri-gri for soloing goes, well, one was designed and made for soloing, the maker of the other emphatically states that you should not use it for soloing.
I've soloed two El Cap routes with a Gri-gri and one with a Silent Partner. The Silent Partner, is a far better and far safer tool to self belay with than a Gri-gri.
As a tool, the SP is totally single purpose, the Gri-gri is a really good multifaceted tool that I wouldn't go up on a wall without (in fact, ahem, I've taken a spare, so far, every time I've been up El Cap since I dropped my one and only off of Iron Hawk this spring).
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Nov 28, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
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The Silent Partner is versatile too, in the sense you can claim you have a silent partner. Ah yes, I picked up a podner just this year.
(you know, in business)
Sorry dude, slot's been taken, already have all the help I need.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Nov 28, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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Hey! Don't you be slanderin' Royal about his drilling skills. I'm 6' 2" and I've done his proud ladders on the Prow and Tis-sa-ack. I had to step it up and stretch. He bragged about the Tis-sa-ack effort in the famous article.
So.... Glen Denny was 6' 10"?....or, was it Wayne Merry?
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Nov 28, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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OK. sorry. I'm not done yet!
I climbed Lurking Fear with my wife Margy and she got the bolt ladder on the 2nd/3rd pitch? She is 5' 0". We set her up with a 2' cheater stick and she made that work. So....what's the problem?
Yes I'm late to the thread.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 01:57am PT
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As a tool, the SP is totally single purpose, the Gri-gri is a really good multifaceted tool that I wouldn't go up on a wall without (in fact, ahem, I've taken a spare, so far, every time I've been up El Cap since I dropped my one and only off of Iron Hawk this spring).
Which tasks would grigri help on the wall with aside from belaying? rapelling to clean can be done on it i guess?
man, i wish there were more videos out there...
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 30, 2012 - 02:40am PT
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V-
I use a GriGri for seconding pitches as a backup, with a knot thrown in here and there.
For following traverses where you can re-aid the section, I just drop the jugs and pull slack through the GriGri, with a knot for good measure.
You can haul through a grigri, or use it as a capture device.
It doubles as a second method of ascending should you drop a jumar.
You can short-fix with it much easier than a clove hitch.
The #1 reason for using a grigri on a wall is that you have 2 hands to manage the beer.
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jfailing
Trad climber
Lone Pine
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Nov 30, 2012 - 06:16am PT
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The #1 reason for using a grigri on a wall is that you have 2 hands to manage the beer.
Truth. How are you supposed to make a sandwich, open a can of kippered herring, or play the mandolin while your partner is on lead?
Grigri.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
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I use a GriGri for seconding pitches as a backup, with a knot thrown in here and there.
why not use a knot every 30 ft or so? it keeps the rope from getting stuck somewhere wayyyyyy lower too. plus when you are jumaring you would need to stop every so often and feed all the slack that builds up through the gri gri, right? That seems kind of annoying.
But I did see some guy using the gri gri as his back up in the instructional video that was posted earlier. Thank you to whoever made it! Very helpful.
This video: http://vimeo.com/4388859
I've soloed two El Cap routes with a Gri-gri and one with a Silent Partner. The Silent Partner, is a far better and far safer tool to self belay with than a Gri-gri.
thank you!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Nov 30, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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Rapping with a Gri-gri is safer (imho) since if you get konked on the head and lose control of the rope you'll stop. My theory of big wall climbing is to conserve strength at all costs. The Gri-gir is a rope grab that can also release under a load, you don't have any other tools on a wall that can do that.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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Jeremy, thought about aiding ice climbs? Seems more solid. lol
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 30, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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I want to know when the book on aid climbing by Jeremy's mom is coming out.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Jeremy: I can only summon a word cloud at the moment... mentally deficient awesome scary insanity ridiculous hilarious
Edit: And after being with your mom, I learned where you get your favorite expression. WOO HOO!!!!!!!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Contrary to her modest rating of 5.9+, I had to resort to some aid on jeremys mom.
Yes the hammer came out, so she should be ready for some nutting by the next team.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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Contrary to her modest rating of 5.9+
Is that in dollars?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Nov 30, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
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Actually, ice screws would probably be pretty good pro on that route.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Nov 30, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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Jeremy probably knows a whole lot about aid climbing, unfortunately, a lot of what he knows I'd be scared to know!
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 30, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
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Yes the hammer came out, so she should be ready for some nutting by the next team.
Bahahaha
Man these Jeremy's mom jokes are good, but too easy.......kind of like Jeremy's mom!!!!!
WOO HOO!!!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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Let's get off Jeremy's mom, cause she can't handle those other five men on her now!!!
jk. looking at all that crazy stuff he does I would not be surprised at all if he showed up with a machine gun at the next supertopo sushi fest gathering lol
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Nov 30, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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What about "fraid" climbing. I head a big route in the Black Canyon went that way and also the triple cracks on The Shield.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Big V,
Thanks for this topic. Great reading.
Recently I started to learn how to aid climb. I found a lot of good stuff on the internet.
I went back and read All of the stuff PTPP posted on RC.com and elsewhere. This is literally a million words to read.
I did the same for other Aid climbing studs, like Kate=Hold2please, and many many others.
I also read three or four Aid climbing books.
I also enjoyed all of Mark Hudon's TR's. These probably more than anything else got me going in the right direction as far as climbing a big wall. I suggest watching all of his Video posts and reading all of his How to big Wall articles.
bigwalls.com I read every page of every topic.
I watched Chris Mac's How to Aid climb videos over and over.
In between all this research I went out and tried all the stuff I was reading about. I hook bouldered in my garage. I aided the bolt ladders at Stoney and Rocky Peak. I learned how to aid solo on same. Then I took those skills to the Quarry in Riverside. I learned to test and trust most of the gear I placed. I practiced my anchor building skills. I made a 2x1 hauling ratchet and learned how to use it. I bought a haul bag and learned how to rig it, pack it with water, hook it to a swivel with another bag and manage it and it's contents all the way up and down a wall. I bought a ledge and practiced deploying and breaking it down while hanging around in my garage. I learned to solo with a tag bag and how to secure it with a slippery knot. These skills and many many more need to be practiced over and over to be mastered. I probably will never get that far but it is sure fun(sp?) trying.
I slowly bought a bunch of aid gear. I am still buying stuff with no end in sight.
Anyway the whole point of my post is, uh, there is a lot of info out there. You just have to make the time to read it and then learn how to use it.
And there is no such thing as a "stupid question" unless it's the one not asked.
Focus on anything and you will learn rapidly.
Sorry for the long post.
Looking forward to reading about your adventures on the big stone this coming season!
Wes
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mackenzie74
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Some of the stuff in this thread is helpful. Minerals posted real advanced material. Thanks.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
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Where can I learn about hand placing sawed-off angles? Where do I even get them?
I dream about doing the shield, and I heard the are very helpful there.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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I borrowed sawed angles from an "older" wall climber but to the best of my knowledge buy some angles and saw them to the desired size.
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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There is no such thing as a stupid question....
Just....
Oh never mind...
Edit:
Re: sawed offs
They generally retail for twice as much as regular angles which seems silly at first because they're half the size but the steel they make them with is 400% stronger and 4 times more expensive.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
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where do they sell them, and where do i find out what size i need for the shield? LOL never seen that beast...
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Jacemullen
Trad climber
Oceanside
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How do you rack copperheads and rivet hangers? A bunch on a biner? Each biner with a set?
Also, are there any other places to place copperheads other than super flared placement where a nut won't stick? It seems like there has to be a "bottom" to moosh the copperhead against so no deep seams, right?
Going out to practice tomorrow on some choss in the rain.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
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kunlun, thanks! maybe I should have googled it at least before asking. Well, that's why I called the thread 'stupid questions' LOL
I rack my rivet hangers with my offset brassies...micro biner would be a good option too probably. Sorry I am no big help.
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