Stupid Questions about Aid Climbing

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1 - 189 of total 189 in this topic
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 26, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
Thread for asking/answering questions....


I have one to start:
At times when I encounter bolt ladders on routes, the bolts are not spaced very close to each other (for example the reachy bolt ladder on the Prow). I can't really see a way how someone would drill a hole for a bolt by hand that would be so far up (I am 6'2 and it wasn't that easy for me to reach and clip those bolts!). Were there some intermediate bolts taken out and the holes patched? Or was the guy so skilled and had a giant reach?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
robbins is a tall f*#ker u should see the bolt ladder on the Tis-sa-sack!
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
maybe a hook was used? Or maybe the FA guys just taped the hammer to their huge dicks and swung that?
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
Wood platforms made of 2x4's, stand on the bottom bolt.

Skystairs there called....
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
Or maybe the FA guys just taped the hammer to their huge dicks and swung that?

So far this is the best answer.

But seriously though. Is there a video of someone putting up a bolt ladder? Would be interesting to see them doing it on the Leconte boulder (that thing is pretty steep!)..
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
Robbins is not really that tall, those guys simply knew how to get into their top-steps and SUFFER!

Most aid climbers climb far too often in their lower aid steps. Me, being short, am always in at least my second step and quite often the top step. I'm 5'2", have long arms, and have never come across a bolt ladder I couldn't climb (the Prow included).
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
I've always wondered that too. When I did Zodiac a gazillon years ago, I came away thinking that Charlie Porter must be tall, since I'm 5'7" and really had to reach like hell to clip bolts. I later learned he's only about my height.

The short answer is high stepping. If it's too steep to stand in your top or second to top aider, you can rig a daisy chain to your harness that will help you high step, even on slightly overhanging stuff. It still baffles me how someone could stand in that position for 20 to 30 minutes while they drilled a bolt. Hard work that.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Mark,

5'2" on a good day eh?

;-)

J
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
It still baffles me how someone could stand in that position for 20 to 30 minutes while they drilled a bolt.

Yes! That! Or did they use a power drill? I mean...that bolt ladder is pretty long.

What stuns me though is these bolts are so far apart, but the bashed out piton holes on Serenity crack are like a foot apart. So why aren't those further apart if guys could have top stepped (terrain there is less steep too)?

Keith Leaman

Trad climber
Seattle
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
We called them "hero loops".
Paul Gleason on FA of "Sickle".  Big Rock ca. 1968
Paul Gleason on FA of "Sickle". Big Rock ca. 1968
Credit: drawing by KL
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
Power drills....my, my Vitaliy, you know your Valley history better than that. As Mark said, they knew how to suffer......and endure.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
Skystairs there called....



That's what I use too Mucci...who woulda known?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
But world-class aid climbers like Pelut don't even get into their second steps.
Aid climbing is like politics: it's all about the spin.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 26, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
Bottom step driller = A REAL THRILLER!
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
"Or was the guy so skilled and had a giant reach?"





He probably used a Cheater stick!
photo not found
Missing photo ID#140060




Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
Jeremy, yeah, on a good day... I'm starting to shrink already, I used to be 5'2.75" but now I'm really 5'1.875" at best!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
Ron ain't no giant either! I suspect he knows how to suffer though!
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
5'1.875"


THE HORROR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:-)

J
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
Seriously, I don't get it. How were the guys able to drill in bolts so far apart from each other, and couldn't hammer in pitons further than a foot apart(like on serenity)? Dudes today suffer to clip those bolts with a cheater stick (I saw some people use those)! Did they seriously not have any removed that were closer?
I guess bolt ladders were also an art.
giegs

climber
Tardistan
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
Ropes for solos with approaches more than a couple miles:

I've got a pair of Accelerators that suck to carry. How can a lazy guy schlepp 2 ropes, gear, beer, and enough spare underwear and toilet paper for a 2-3 pitch tower? Anybody using a piece of string for their second?

Is this the future?
The future.
The future.
Credit: giegs
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
Try a pair of these, Vitaliy!

Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
Dr. F for the win.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
Vitaliy,

You're thinking of it wrong. All those scars on Serenity aren't done by one person and aren't indicative of anyone's individual reach. Certainly, on Serenity, you could lie on the slab and maybe even stand on top of the actual pin (we used to do that) to reach as far as possible. Other people would nail from their third steps and still others from their fourth step. Eventually someone would place a pin, and start a scar, in between existing scars and eventually you'd have scars every six inches, just like on the Shield now.

Top stepping, and even Hero stepping, is hard work and just like everything else, people don't like hard work and start nailing from the comfortable position of their third steps. It's ridiculous but people do it.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
Top stepping, and even Hero stepping, is hard work and just like everything else, people don't like hard work and start nailing from the comfortable position of their third steps. It's ridiculous but people do it.
I've never really understood that approach to parking it low in your aiders. I always had hero loops and tried to use them whenever possible. Whether it's moving faster, placing less gear, conserving gear, or just being relatively short, I feel like I'm getting it done.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
Why limit yourself to just a flimsy fabric ladder (the aiders)? With a rigid aluminum ladder you could drill 20 - 40 feet above your last solid placement.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
Thank you Dr. F and Mark. Very helpful answers. Those guys must of worn real stiff boots for standing high in the aiders for so long.
Is there a book to read about evolution of dirty aid and what is accepted in today's world of aid on international stage?
Grippa

Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
For me it was all about customizing my fifi length to my height and leg length. Once I had that dialed being stable in the 2nd step is super easy, and allows me to reach the spaciest bolt ladders I've encountered (prow included).

Like chris mac said in once of his aid articles, "no fooling around...get up in those aiders fast!". practice this mantra while leading and you'll get faster super quick.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
Ron also has some ballast above his belt buckle that keeps him in balance.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
Jeremy, yeah, on a good day... I'm starting to shrink already, I used to be 5'2.75" but now I'm really 5'1.875" at best!

I can relate! I was 5'5" but now it's about 1/2" shorter -- and shrinking. I learned early that I had to get into the highest steps possible in my aid slings (See how old school I am? None of this aiders stuff.) Unlike you, Mark, my arms are short, though, so I use an extension arm, consisting of an old-style Chouinard Cliffhanger in an old-style Yosemite Hammer to make particularly reachy clips.

Incidentally, Robbins (who was not particularly tall himself) was quite proud of the bolt ladders he put in on Tis-sa-ack and The Prow, and bragged about them in his write-ups of their first ascents. Also, on The Prow, there were occasional marginal aid placements between a few of the bolts.

John
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Like chris mac said in once of his aid articles, "no fooling around...get up in those aiders fast!". practice this mantra while leading and you'll get faster super quick.

+1
efficiency helps a lot. I saw a lot of improvement in the speed 1st to 2nd wall. On my first wall I did not see how it was possible at all to do more than 4 pitches of aid per day lol. Walls are interesting in a way.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Keep that wall urge under control Vitaliy....you seem destined for the mountains.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
maybe he just need beta for routes like the Harvard on Mt Hunington..??
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
V,

Have you ever heard of "Tee'ing" off?

Ron O. has a clean climbing video floating around that shows this technique in action.

I suspect there is a video on youtube.

If you cross one foot in front of the other in your top step, it stabilizes the stance.

It doesn't work for overhanging, as far as I know, but it really does help on vertical to less than vertical.

Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
That aid sh#t will kill ya...Jim knows.

;-)
m_jones

Trad climber
Carson City, NV
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
Yes I wondered that as well. Last year on South Seas the bolt ladders seriously worked me. I was aghast at how much actually! had totally forgotten about the total body strength required to top step on a 95 degree wall.

I found this year that clipping my chest harness to my harness helped me top step easier plus from climbing a bit this summer had regained some of the core strength specific to climbing.

We joked that you pretty much had to climb full time just to be fit enough to climb occasionally!

Still - remarkable on the first ascents the work required to drill!

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
Keep that wall urge under control Vitaliy....you seem destined for the mountains.

It would be nice to combine mountains, ability to free climb harder terrain (than i can now), and wall skills. Than I can finally complete that Latok climb! ;)

Have you ever heard of "Tee'ing" off?

no
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 26, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
You're the man...that puppy (Latok) needs some closure!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
for now im jk about Latok of course...I am sure it will be done by someone before I get enough skills/balls to go there.
How hard does one need to climb to give it a realistic attempt? That ridge is beautiful.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 26, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
The skills must be there but TENACITY is the word....oh, and throw in a little luck.
Who knows, it might still be there for you....it has been 34 years- who would've thunk.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 26, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
Talk about speed, I heard those two rocked Wet Denim yesterday!


I was told The Reticent has extremely reachy ladders. Brother A said he could barely reach 'em at all, and he's no shorty. Gerby had a technique, I suppose.


cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Oct 26, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
It could all be explained by the use of balance placements. These are intermediate placements, only able to hold a few pounds, so you can pull yourself in one direction or the other, or to pull you into the wall. Tiny copperheads (hooks too) are excellent for this. Yanking the head when cleaning will often destroy the small flake that was used, making it all a mystery to a later party.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
had to bump Latok thread since it is mentioned. But seriously, how hard would the rock ratings feel? Would one have to lead at least solid 5.11/wi5 before thinking of going there?

this move ya do where ya step high way up in your top step - and ya sort of leverage with your fifi or a quickdraw and ya pop way up
done that a few times. Hard to do if terrain is even slightly overhanging.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 26, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
Yup… Gerberding, Middendorf, etc.

But I’m not buying any of this 15 or 30 minutes to place a bolt or a rivet on a ladder. No way, especially if placing rivets of any sort. Should be maybe 5 minutes per rivet, 10 minutes max if you are lazy and slow and are placing longer 1/4” bolts. If you are quick, a machine-head rivet might take about 2 or 3 minutes to place. High-speed steel drill bits have been around forever; it’s not exactly new technology.

Mark, go check out the 4th pitch ladder on Cataclysmic Megasheer on the S. Face of HD. ; )

Another reason why the scars are so close together on Serenity is that once a placement became so scarred and ‘boxed-out’, it became more difficult to use. So, climbers resorted to using a much thinner pin in a new placement, which of course, suffered the same fate as the older placements. With time, the crack was basically turned into a line of square holes.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 26, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
thinking back here. To a seam i did up on the pinncale at eagle lake.

How does it fell VM? Each placement was SHIYTE , and NO CONFIDENCE was had as you attempt to step up on a rurp or a knife blade driven about an inch or less in and tied off. No bounce test, as what your standing on is NO GOOD either. Talus awaits below. You may find yourself uttering a small short prayer to whomever may be listening. thats how it can feel...;-)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 26, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
It's not so much the difficulty of individual moves Vitaliy. We were all on the cutting edge of climbing for that era. You need to be able to summon up something near your A game each and every day. You need to be able to stay alert and focused even when desperately tired or dealing with atrocious weather and conditions. We had to make 85 single anchor raps in bad weather, while tired and with no food....and, not have one of them fail.
The more time you spend in the mountains, the more obstacles you overcome, the more ready you will be for such a climb.
It's not about the parts; rock and ice climbing ability, experience, endurance, ability to suffer, ambition, tenacity, strategic planning, focus....it's about the sum of the parts, and, most importantly, your PARTNERS.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 26, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
Ron...it was a compliment, you always amaze me!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
Thank you for the post, Jim. Climbs like that is what climbing is about. You guys succeeded to get the best experience out of that route, that's for sure. Not a happy end, but a true experience. Something you are proud to give your best and survive you know? Awesome posts on those other threads.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 26, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
Well I guess I need to use emoticons that wink.

A year ago (and more) I was packin' around a bit much.

Look, you do the geezer crack climber thing and I'll do the wall/remote/drill thing. Kay?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 26, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
Yeah...let's divide and conquer!
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Oct 26, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
hyper-psyche
and homemade buscuits.

vitality,
you gotta stand on the shoulders
of your's own vitality,
which is upon substances
such as wayward dreams
and anti-understandings.

vertical is merely
the step-master of infinity.
you already got everywhere tamed,
so walk bravely up your fabric ladder
and poke god in the eye.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
Yesterday I measured at 14.5% body fat ya geezer!

Wow Ron, getting those teeth removed can make that much difference? I gotta find me a dentist who can do that.....
Jumpingfish

Social climber
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
Good read...I almost want to climb something.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
The following were placed with a rawl drill and chisel tip bit.

1/4" x 1" button head - 4:37 sec

5/16ths x 1/2" embedded length machine head rivet - <2min

Who in the hell was taking 10, 20 or even 30 min per bolt?


Oh and just try drilling a off angle ladder, Ie...right hander drilling up and left....

See how far the spacing is then....
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
Mucci,

Takes me between 4-8 seconds...


YMMV SUCKA!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
1/4" x 1" button head - 4:37 sec

5/16ths x 1/2" embedded length machine head rivet - <2min

Dude! Mucci! This thread is supposed to be for noobs to ask questions! You know how many questions I have for you after reading that? !

Let's start from 'what the hell is a button head?!' Is that those cheap little things you put a rivet on?

machine head rivet

don't even know where to start here...
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
http://www.fishproducts.com/pics/rivethanger.jpeg

is that a rivet on a buttonhead? : /
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
Take a deep breath Vitaly...slow your roll...
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
I've met robbins and yes he's a shorty but must have been f*#k'n tall when he placed those 1/2ass bolt ladder's on the t-sac. the prow is a short little bad ass route.
get on it!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
button heads are a type of bolt (not a rivet) with a rounded unfeatured head

Yes. So you put a rivet on a button head, correct? (that was my question)
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
“5 minute 1/4" bolts??? using a hammer

That, I have never seen”

I’ve placed 1/4” x 1 1/2” buttonheads (not rivets…) while drilling on lead from a stance in Tuolumne in about 2.5 minutes. Not such a big deal if you’ve got your drilling system down and aren’t swinging a tack hammer. Being a little gripped helps too. But that’s not aid climbing…

Not sure what kind of bits Robbins was using. Anyone know?

From another post in this thread:

“It still baffles me how someone could stand in that position for 20 to 30 minutes while they drilled a bolt.”


Power drills suck.
Gene

climber
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
On the Prow, RR had a secret weapon - Glen Denny - which explains the distance between bolts.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
Hey crunch the teeth weren't THAT fat.
Was it the bone graft?

I have sometimes used a quickie on lead and then re-drilled it and sunk a good one with a top rope, but, for example, those ladders on Prodigal are all "lead" spacing.
With good technique ample spacing is easy enough, or you can go with twin aiders and fifi hooks and pulling against your own pushing and the smug assurance that you are "traditional".

I know which is more efficient for me.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
those guys simply knew how to get into their top-steps and SUFFER!

1+
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
I'm 5'9" and had no problems with the reach on the bolts on the Prow with second steps. WTF?

The only exception was a head that blew on P5. I had to make a stiff draw to reach past the gummed up head location to the next bolt.

Sack up man.
Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
Moof you coming out to Beacon tomorrow?
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 06:41pm PT

Sack up man.

Is that directed at me? Would love to hear it in real life so I could knock some of your teeth out.
Did I imply I was afraid of a bolt ladder? My post is to find out how do FAists keep it so well spaced, since some (like me) do not find it that easy to clip the bolts without a huge reach (I would not be able to hammer sh#t while reaching like that). Not scared, curious.
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Credit: j-tree
Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
^^^^^That's what I thought!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
~~~"ya dont tug on supermans cape,, ya dont spi-it in the wind"

"ya dont pull the mask -off the ol long ranger and ya dont mess around with VM" " doo-doo-doo-doo dooodlidy doo-doo-doo."~~~


Humor,,,;-)
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#245059
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
Gene for the win!!

Denny is/was 6'5" if I remember correctly.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
Vitaliy has LOTS of sack!
I'd climb with him anyday, despite his shortcomings.

;-)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
that bird pic J posts CRACKS ME UP!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
lets talk nailing the EXPANDOHHHWWWW..

you know,, how you just FEEl the point to stop pounding the next placement least it dislodge the one yur on?? Then soon realize NOTHING below you will hold if anything pops..And you also hope that HUGE block that IS expanding doesnt just decide its had enough and teeters on off the wall???
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 26, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
Vitya, my son, you know how it is here; the Illuminati aren't gonna give up
their arcane secrets without spitting on you a little, especially if you're sincere.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 26, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
Vitaliy M.,

In a basic sense, bolts have hangers and rivets do not. Rivets require either a rivet hanger (cable loop) or a keyhole hanger (like a bolt hanger but with a slot to enable it to be slid on and off of a rivet). Keyhole hangers are usually stronger than cable rivet hangers and once clipped, can’t come off of a rivet (i.e. RP keyhole hanger and 5/16” machine-head rivet combo).


Hopefully this will help.


Bolts and Rivets for Granite





1.) 1/4” x 1 1/2” split-shank button-head bolt (zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). Button-heads can be placed as rivets as well, but the use of a couple of 5/16” washers on the button-head helps to keep both a cable rivet hanger or a keyhole hanger from coming off of the button-head.

2.) 1/4” x 1 1/4” split-shank button-head bolt (zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). This is a “shorty” button-head bolt. They can be used as a rivet, with or without a washer, but without a washer it would be best to place a cinch-type cable rivet hanger on it to ensure that the rivet stays clipped to the rope. Some climbers use these “shorty” button-heads for drilling on lead while free climbing, but in my opinion, you might as well just place the longer (1 1/2”) version.

3.) Long 5/16” machine-head rivet (grade 5, zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). This rivet is longer than a ‘standard’ length rivet and might be used at a belay, or for a more solid rivet, rather than on a rivet ladder.

4.) 5/16” machine-head rivet (grade 5, zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). This is a ‘standard’ length rivet for use on a rivet ladder or to connect features across blank sections of rock.


Machine-head rivets have an advantage over button-heads in that they require a shallower hole (less drill time), they work great with RP-style keyhole hangers (hanger can’t come off of machine-head once hanger is clipped with biner), and they are generally stronger than a button-head if placed properly.

The downside is that they are not stainless (stainless is too soft for use as a machine-head rivet) and they are very difficult to cleanly remove in order to reuse the original hole when due for replacement. The outer portion of the hole will usually crater when trying to pull a well-placed machine-head. In this sense, 1/4” button-heads are better for use as a rivet because they can be pulled cleanly in order to reuse the original hole during replacement.


5.) 1/4” x 1 1/2” button-head bolt with stainless 5/16” SMC hanger. This is my favorite quarter-inch combo for stance drilling on lead. Once tapped through the 5/16” hole, the button-head won’t fall out of the hanger and you can clip it to your harness, etc. for quick access when stance drilling.


All of the above bolts and rivets (1. - 5.) work on the basis of compression; that is, they are larger in diameter than the hole and are forced into the hole with a hammer.


6.) 3/8” x 2 1/4” stainless 5-piece bolt with stainless 3/8” Metolius hanger. This size bolt is the modern standard for granite, both for free climbs as well as for belays/anchors on walls. This is the bolt that the ASCA uses for bolt replacement in hard rock (granite). It is tapped into the hole and then a wrench is used to tighten the bolt, which draws the cone (end piece on bolt) into the sleeve, thus expanding the sleeve to ‘lock’ the bolt in the hole.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2012 - 12:25am PT
Minerals, wow, thank you for posting such a detailed answer. It does help a lot. For some reason I thought cable rivet hangers were called 'rivets.' I did not realize that 'rivet' is a type of a smaller bolt so to say. Thank you for clarifying.
Is there a book or a web site where I can research these things? I read "Big Wall Climbing: Elite Technique" a while ago, but thought it was mostly an overview of the subject and very general...
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 27, 2012 - 12:29am PT
www.bigwalls.net

Click on the forum button. We LOVE stupid questions. It doesn't get the traffic of this place, so please be patient.
Cheers!
Borut

climber
french
Oct 27, 2012 - 12:39am PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet
giegs

climber
Tardistan
Oct 27, 2012 - 01:00am PT
What's best practice for bailing on a pitch of questionable gear? Hell, even good gear. Assuming you've fallen a couple times on your last piece it's probably not terrible, but I'm a scaredy cat. Obviously you're going to want to clean most pieces on the way down but where to stop/finish? Trust in your last two or three pieces and hope for the best? Wait for your nuts to descend on their own? Down aid while cleaning?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 27, 2012 - 01:04am PT
Back to The Prow for a second. I think the bolt ladders with the long reaches were mostly put in by Robbins and Mike Covington. Denney led a few of the higher pitches, but mostly above the bolt ladders.

John
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Oct 27, 2012 - 01:10am PT
The future of aid climbing. Remote control drilling from
the comfort of your porta ledge.

Credit: corniss chopper


Grippa

Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 27, 2012 - 10:12am PT
Stupid Question:

For difficult hooking sequences is it standard to use adjustable daisy's to better keep tension on your placement?

I can't remember who it was on here but they had fabricated adjustable daisy's using 8mm cord with a ropeman or equivalent as their attachment point. Quite creative I must say since as soon as you get a placement you can reel in slack and gently weight the piece.

Thus far all I've used is standard daisy's on routes up to C2. Looking for some techniques to help make the next few C2 and C3 routes quicker and more managable in the difficult sections.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 27, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Glad that helped, Vitaliy.

I forgot to mention that when trying to pull a solid 5/16” machine-head rivet for replacement, the rivet will often break somewhere along the threads, which leaves part of the rivet in the hole, making the hole useless for replacement. A new hole must then be drilled. Not good.

There’s a lot of info here and there in this forum, but because there is basically zero organization here, it’s tough to search for info unless you know exactly what (thread) you are looking for.

Here’s a crappy old photo that shows a bunch of different cable gear, including different types of rivet hangers. You can find the photo and a list of the different items towards the end of the thread linked below, along with a bunch of other info on copperheads, etc.





http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/28147/How-To-Make-A-2-Copperhead-And-Everything-Else



Edit: I’m not familiar with Jared’s book, but if you haven’t read it, you might also check out the John Long and John Middendorf book. It’s got some good stuff in it, along with great illustrations by John McMullen. Maybe they should have just called it… The Book of John

http://www.amazon.com/How-Climb-Big-Walls-Series/dp/0934641633



Here’s a 1/4” x 1 1/2” button-head with two washers, placed as a rivet. The rivet/keyhole hanger is placed between the rock and the washers. When it’s time to pull the button-head for replacement, a tuning fork can be placed between the two washers in order to help protect the rock from the tuning fork and to support the head of the bolt.




And for an extra-extraneous bit of irrelevant trivia… The bolt/rivet photo in the post above brought my total number of uploads to my Photobucket account to 666… Cool!!! >: )>


10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Oct 27, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
Wow Ron, getting those teeth removed can make that much difference? I gotta find me a dentist who can do that.....

hahahahaha
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 27, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
I'm 5'9" and had no problems with the reach on the bolts on the Prow with second steps. WTF?

There is a world of difference between clipping a bolt ladder and drilling from the top step of your etiers.

Any two-bit 5'9" climbing can clip a bolt ladder... It takes someone tall to actually drill good holes for a ladder.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
Minerals thank you for posting another great reply.

Stupid Question:

For difficult hooking sequences is it standard to use adjustable daisy's to better keep tension on your placement?

I can't remember who it was on here but they had fabricated adjustable daisy's using 8mm cord with a ropeman or equivalent as their attachment point. Quite creative I must say since as soon as you get a placement you can reel in slack and gently weight the piece.

hmmmm good question for someone with more knowledge. So far I can't see how adjustable daisy would help much. Isn't it more about how you load the hook while transitioning your weight to it?
I have an adjustable daisy, and like it very much though.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Oct 28, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Most hook placements you'll come across are well used and have a little divot that has been worn out by the hook's metal that and are really no big deal. Reach up, feel around for the divot, select the appropriate hook and there ya go. Easy Peasy

I find that placements that are far off to the side, for both finding the placement, setting the hook, and climbing onto it, are the most challenging. If you're on a hook, trying to lean out to find a placement is tricky since you don't want your legs to swing out the opposite direction, and then mounting the hook, since you want to apply a straight down force onto it, is also tricky.

For leaning out to the side you can't get too low in your slings since you don't want to lose too much horizontal reach, you just have to make sure your balance is true. For mounting the new hook, getting low in your steps and moving over low, will decrease the angle from one hook to another.

The only use a daisy is that if you blow either hook, you won't lose them.

Top stepping off a hook greatly depends on the placement. If it's one of those placements that are behind a little ridge, as most are, if you're moderately careful, it's no big deal. If the placement is on a flat edge, you have to be delicate.

For a hook placement that I can't see, a daisy is a big plus. I'll attach the daisy and sink down onto it and slowly move up my ladders till I can see the hook and evaluate it.

a hook in a very small divot.
a hook in a very small divot.
Credit: Mark Hudon

A hook on a very small divot. Don't be doing no break dancing on this one!

A hook on a fractured edge
A hook on a fractured edge
Credit: Mark Hudon

You might want to be careful on this one since it looks like a hook has already broken off the edge to the hook's left.

Bomber!
Bomber!
Credit: Mark Hudon

A freakin' bomber, fall holding, Meat Hook!

Hook on a flake.
Hook on a flake.
Credit: Mark Hudon

This will be your most common hook placement. Tape it down, put a Screamer on it and don't worry about it.

Starting the crux of Lost in America.
Starting the crux of Lost in America.
Credit: Max Jones

Starting the crux pitch of Lost in America.
All in all, this section isn't too bad since the hooks are pretty good, you're moving out horizontal from the anchor, the rock is smooth and overhangs below the anchor. A fall would be a big swing but not dangerous. I don't know why I haven't removed that first hook and put it away yet, maybe I'm thinking that I'll need it again soon.




The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 28, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
Is there a book or a web site where I can research these things?

The best one ever put together that is simple and to the point. Written by one of the baddest Wall Rats ever ... Duece!

The Original Editon with old Xavier on the cover:


The current editon with Jeff P & BW Pete on Aurora:




Here's Duece's original "A5 Big Wall Tech Manual" as well... Still have the original in paperback I got from him at his origianal A5 Shop in Flagstaff in May of '90!

http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/BigWallTechManual.htm






And, Duece's website, the best on the subject!!!!

http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/index.html



Bigass PS:

The ONLY way to learn AID is to get on some and do it! Ya best be willing to take some whippers. That is indeed part of the learning curve. The type rock ya get on plays a big ass role on the grade as well.

Golden rule about Aid ratings in my book:

"One man's A2 is another man's A5" and "It's all A1 till you zipper your shet to hell!"


Here'e another way ya put rivets/bolts so far apart, sackin up, top stepp'n and hooking on dime edges (sometimes using a bit of help with some duct tape) till ya got the right spot..



My super modyfied razor filed down Leepers for minute Dime Edging with Duct Tape....


I did the same to a pair of Talon's as well. Got six Leeper's set up like this for "pro". Taken a couple 6-9 footers on em and they actually held. Anything longer than that, it's zipperville. Trust me. HA!







On a side note, the Prow was indeed the biggest example of hypocisy in the Early Valley days.

I think the bolt ladders with the long reaches were mostly put in by Robbins....


RR had the audacity to get on WOEML and start chopping Batso line AFTER he put up the P4 & P5 bolt ladders on the PROW.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Great post, the Chief. Value your knowledge on the subject. Interesting look at the history too. I notice a lot of hypocrisy in climbing world.

One observation: the climber in the photo is drilling about two feet above the point of aid he is standing on (way down in his aiders). Is that because he is on a hook and you don't walk up high on those?

I am thinking of learning to solo on silent partner or something. It takes a lot of time to belay ETC on walls. And if you do it alone there would be no one else to blame etc. Hard to arrange the right time to do a wall with a partner. For most people it is a big deal and you need a whole vacation. I loved doing the Prow since we did it fast. And liked my partner too.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
Vitaliy, when I've got some time on my hands and no one to climb with, I'll go fix a line at a local crag and micro trax self belay and aid up it. On the top rope you can try all sorts of hook placements (some way sketchy) to see what holds and what doesn't. Also, you don't need a belayer getting bored while you screw around
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Where, at Castle Rock?
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
Typically I'll go to Guadalupe rock because it's the closest spot to me. It's not the best spot in the world, but hey it's rock!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
Riley are you serious? I am game if you are. As long as I don't have to lead anything harder than C3 at this point. Or C3+. If you know any spots to TR A5 hooks or something that actually trains skills, would be happy to. I don't understand the ratings all too well at this point. Aid ratings are kind of bullsh#t. Popular routes have so much fixed stuff on them that it is like doing a long bolt ladder with occasional move in between and occasional crack with a bunch of offset placements.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 29, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
Popular routes have so much fixed stuff on them that it is like doing a long bolt ladder with occasional move in between and occasional crack with a bunch of offset placements.

Sounds like you want to learn how to AID climb.

Get on something that hasn't been banged out like a cheap whore.

An early repeat of a smaller wall will teach you more that 10 ascents of the milk runs.

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 29, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
One observation: the climber in the photo is drilling about two feet above the point of aid he is standing on (way down in his aiders). Is that because he is on a hook and you don't walk up high on those?

That was my fifth dime edger hook placement interspersed by the #1 head (that isn't worth shet but my body wt) which is located below my left foot, and the bathook I am on is a filed down talon. I use 5 stepper aiders thus I am not "low", I am in my 2nd to the top step. I am placing a 3/8" machine rivet btw, not a bolt. My last decent pro was same type rivet some 15 or so ft below my current pos. I drilled several bathook holes after this rivet placement to the next rivet as the rock was blanker than your skinny 6'2" tall ass.

Final rating on this 3P line was A3+. Am told that it is a total bagger. Whatever.....
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
Why do you use 3/8ths inch rivets Chief?

Do you think they are more commiting than a 1/4" bolt with hanger?



Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
your skinny 6'2" tall ass

I wish I was skinny. 190 lbs. At least not 300 like I used to be. Last year in mid summer I was 205, so making progress. I want to get down to 175 or so. Less weight=less weight to pull up.

mucci +10000. For now I feel like I need to do a few more 'trade' routes to at least get my sh#t better together. I saw a huge progress from my first to second to third wall so far. There are a few obscure walls I would like to try...

Riley, lets do some route on Watchtower in winter. http://www.summitpost.org/the-watchtower/150902
Go out there, climb some ice, do a wall, post some pictures for Chief to hate on=BLAST. Some guys did a route on that wall in Winter and said it was fun. I read a nice report:
http://www.rockclimbing.org/tripreports/watchtower.htm


The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
Why do you use 3/8ths inch rivets Chief?

Do you think they are more commiting than a 1/4" bolt with hanger?

Negative.

Takes 1/3 the time drilling/placement than a 1/4"er bolt. Also, far less intrusive imo. Bomber for up to maybe 500lbs or a 15 footer... maybe.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
I don't know about that 500lb rating cheif....

I do however agree that rivets are NOT protection, rather progression tools much like the infamous bathook holes.

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
Will, figuring the math and all, a 15 footer generates more KN lbs energy than 500lbs. So I am being on the conserve side actually. Taken several 10-15ers on em and they held up just fine....
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 29, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Here is another way to look at it.

3/8ths inch rivet in the middle of A3+ hooking.

Or

3/8ths inch bolt with hanger in the middle of A3+ hooking.

Same pitch, same Protection, both drilled placements are good for a HUGE fall, belaying, etc....

Now, replace that 3/8ths inch rivet with a 5/16ths machine head,or another smaller, more common rivet.

Has the pitch changed in terms of commitment?

I ask because I use 5/16ths 3/4" Machine heads, and drill them a touch under 1/2" embedded depth. If I need protection I drill a bolt and put a hanger on it.

This thread is a bright light shining on the many different styles of creating a aid climb.






The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 29, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
Allow me to change my verbiage...

I utilize 3/8" X 1" machine hex head bolts with sheer strengths of 4200lbs:


I drill em a little over a 3/4's of inch deep which allows enough room for a snug fit for #4 & 5 stoppers.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Oct 29, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
I would think that rivet you drill, Chief, would hold well over 500 pounds.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 29, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
^^^
At the very minimum, with a sloppy hole… You might as well put a hanger on them because that’s more of a bolt than a rivet, Chief. Are you placing them into an oversized 5/16” hole? I also don’t see how that could possibly be any quicker than placing a 5/16” machine-head, or even a 1/4” button-head. Why the jumbo rivets? Standard keyhole hangers won’t work on them, so a homemade, filed-out 3/8” hanger would be required if one wanted to use a keyhole hanger, rather than a wire. Wires/cable can be cut or become damaged on threads, hence the type of 5/16” machine-head rivets in my photo on the previous page (no threads next to hex head).
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
Crickets over at the Bigwall board.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 29, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
Again Vitaliy, do not become seduced by the arcane jargon and the minutiae of aid climbing....your future is in the mountains.

That said, a layman's knowledge of aid will be useful....I climbed the Salathe Wall and the Nose before I went to Patagonia.
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 29, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
Shortest Straw has tons (100s?) of those machine head rivets on it. The T Moses hangers work nicely on them. They are rather reachy too...
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
CRICKETS!
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 29, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
“The T Moses hangers work nicely…”

Ahh, I had forgotten that Theron makes a 3/8” heyhole hanger. Duh. Thanks for the reminder. I was thinking RP keyhole hangers.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 29, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
Shortest Straw has tons (100s?) of those machine head rivets on it.

Precisely.

Old Rick Lovelace's work on the Straw was what turned me onto em. After I did the Straw in Sept of '97 I decided they were the shet. I remember talking to Duece about em back in '90 at his shop in Flagstaff and he was stoked on em back then. File the first three or four threads down to get em started into the hole and then they go in like butter. I have designated several #5 /BD Stoppers and a handful of older Met Yellow Curve nuts for hangers. Pull the stopper down and wrap the cable over the head then cinch up the nut snug and whalla. They will rotate and stay put.

Again, the sheer strength on those babies is well over 4Klbs so they will indeed take a good hit on em before bending let alone sheering.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 29, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
Therons keyhole hangers only work up to 5/16ths? or maybe I missed something?

I used them recently and thought they were WAY better than any other type I have used.




Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
CRICKETS!!!!!
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Oct 29, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
T Moses hangars are the difference between looking ahead without worry and looking down with worry for me.

 - -

Crickets over at the Bigwall board.

Dude, seriously. I check at least twice a day. Just don't have anything to post in my life right now so... chirp chirp chirp.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
Shhh, j-tree.....I'm trying to inspire(guilt?) some of the folk to actually post something.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Chief, you must be referring to 5/16” machine-heads, which have been the standard size for grade 5 machine-head rivets for years. I’ve placed tons of the 5/16” size and they work great, as I mentioned earlier. The 3/8” machine-heads is what I was questioning.

But again, the problem with machine-heads is that they are difficult to cleanly remove in order to reuse the original hole for replacement. They’re not stainless and they’re not going to last forever. Better to be able to reuse the original hole than continue to drill new holes (i.e. use 1/4” button-heads…)

Using wired nuts for rivet hangers limits your reach because they are a lot longer than a standard cable rivet hanger or a keyhole hanger. Keyhole hangers work the best in this sense, and they are stronger and more durable than wires/cable.

Mucci…
http://mosesclimbing.com/rivet-hangers/

I prefer the RP keyhole hanger design because the biner is oriented parallel to the rock, rather than perpendicular to the rock. This can be preferable when using a keyhole hanger at a belay when you want to clip multiple biners to the main keyhole biner.

PFH also makes/made a keyhole hanger that orients the biner perpendicular to the rock. Another potential problem with this type of design is that to prevent leverage on the rivet, the right shape/size biner must be used. I have some PFH keyhole hangers but haven’t used them much although Mike and Gabe were complaining about the design a while back after a fall on Aurora where a rivet pulled. With the RP design, leverage on the rivet is minimized by keeping the biner parallel and flush with the rock.


RP keyhole hanger on the left, PFH keyhole hanger on the right:




CRICKETS!!!!!

: )

Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
Godammit, Mineral Boy.....;-)
I'm workin' up a drunken rant....on a Monday, that could take a while.







Please Stand By.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
Brief question about aid: What's it called if Mark Hudon sends a message from the middle of an El Cap route?
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
I never place that stuff...sandstone and all ..but for granite...seems way mo betta with a hanger.

But I'm easily scared.

Nice pics Bryan.

YMMV
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:06am PT
used all of those hangers minerals, and tend to go with a small modified D when clipping in for the reasons you mentioned above.

I have SS rivets and prefer them in certain placements where the stone is ultra hard.

Of course how you prep your rivet on the wheel is going to determine how it's placed.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Ultra hard?


photo not found
Missing photo ID#270111


I MISS EL CAP!
Grippa

Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:18am PT
Brief question about aid: What's it called if Mark Hudon sends a message from the middle of an El Cap route?

It's called "Sending" a text message Mouse. Sending is something Mark familiar with..haha!
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:23am PT
All these "Wall Climbers" inhabiting the Spew Board?



HA!
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:36am PT
“Godammit, Mineral Boy.....;-)”

Do they allow free climbers to spew over there…? I spend way too much time here as it is.

Let’s hear your drunken rant! Only had two Green Labels left so had to throw some Cobras from my Tuolumne-late-season-stash into the freezer to try to keep up!

Mucci, have the SS machine-heads been working ok for you?

Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )


“Of course how you prep your rivet on the wheel is going to determine how it's placed.”

Definitely. Depends on the rock too. Sometime you don’t even need to clean them up on a grinder. The machine-heads with the un-threaded section next to the hex head don’t come in a short length so you have to cut them to the preferred length with bolt cutters. In some cases, like on the S. Face of HD, they went in great without any grinding after cutting them down to length.


Jeremy, have you modified Spectres, etc. on a grinder? I made a few different versions of ‘em that worked well in that mud. Also modified some of the Pika ice pitons too by putting a knifeblade taper on ‘em with a grinder. What were those things called…? Arkee? I forget, and mine are in storage. Can’t find any with a Google image search. Anyways, killer little modified piece. But not to worry, the #3 Tomahawks are on the way and you will be psyched!

Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:40am PT
Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )

You mean the ones I pulled out accidentally with my fingers, & quickly put back? Yeesh. They Still held body weight. I checked. Once, anyway.

I may not get drunk enough to rant, this night....It's comin', though.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:48am PT
Chief, you must be referring to 5/16” machine-heads, which have been the standard size for grade 5 machine-head rivets for years. I’ve placed tons of the 5/16” size and they work great, as I mentioned earlier. The 3/8” machine-heads is what I was questioning.

I use the 3/8" X 1" if I know I will be running out the section above me with narly dime size heading for at least 20-30' or more.

The standard 5/16" X 3/4" I utilize in between 3-5 bathook moves.

Does it make a difference? Well, all I know is they will hold a 15-20 footer.

As far as SS also making a difference, well, in the wallet maybe.

Hope that clarifies things...



Jeremy: Beaking like that was the norm in the Towers and on some of the narly River Road classics. "Artist Tears", some stuff in Arches/Kane Creek and Long Canyon require'd it BITD as you well know. Love the old pound in the series of 10 to 15 Beak days of the Utah Desert
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:52am PT
E-nail.

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:52am PT
BTW:

Still got over 10 of them old RP hangers. I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:08am PT
Is there a video of someone putting up a bolt ladder?

Major boring, pun intended.

I was going to suggest hero loops, since VM's new to nail-ups, obvious to the most casual, cynical old iron banger.

I posted a picture on the Oakdale show-and-tell thread that PO posted of a RR magic moment.

The hero loop's the ticket, V, as someone mentioned...

It's maybe fifty cents worth of webbing that can save you lots of time on a ladder.

You do any more, without a couple on your rack, you're a silly boy.

My two-loop aid slings (I'm in total agreement with Tom Frost on this, I believe) were alway equipped with sub-aiders and hero loops.

The maxim for bolt ladders is simple, don't slow down. You are in little danger. You can rest at the anchor.

This is the ticket if your pard's dicking around reaching for it.

MOVE IT, ASSWIPE is not subtle enough. You should both master "half-inch heroism," as Millis the Mentor put it.

Don't fail to try fi-fi hooks, either. These make it all worth while for the time they save. LeConte, hallowed though it is, isn't a good place to practice this technique. Just get on a Five and practice.

I can't think of anyplace else in the Valley, though Mickey's Beach might still provide a bolt ladder. Haven't been round there in years. That is, if you find yourself in the city on a weekend, which isn't your style.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:32am PT
Thanks for the clarification, Chief.

Middendorf and Bridwell did some hardware testing years ago and put numbers to actual pieces placed, as far as force required to break/pull rivets and bolts of various types and sizes. Not sure if it was ever published online, but I have a copy somewhere. I did some very archaic testing of rivets and bolts in some solid granite around here, with a 10-lb. sledgehammer and a ~3-foot funkness device made of doubled #4 cable. Although not terribly scientific, the results were quite interesting.

I would say that a longer grade 5, 5/16” machine-head rivet that is well-placed will hold any fall thrown at it. A well-placed grade 5, 3/8” machine-head “rivet” might even hold my truck. I found that a bomber 5/16” machine-head withstood more sledgehammer abuse in both tension and sheer before it pulled than did a bomber 1/4” x 1 1/2” button-head with a hanger. If properly placed, a machine-head can be surprisingly strong, especially considering that it’s placed in such a shallow hole. This, of course, is dependent on rock quality.


“I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.”

Why?



And in response to this earlier question that never got a reply…

“What's best practice for bailing on a pitch of questionable gear? Hell, even good gear…”

If you aren’t too far above the belay and it’s possible, down-aiding while cleaning might be your best bet. If you are a ways up a pitch, you might be better off building a small anchor to be lowered from (if you are less than half-a-rope-length out) or rap from (if you are past half-rope). In any case, you are going to have to sacrifice some gear to leave – better off finding a spot on the pitch where you can leave heads, or pins, or wired nuts. Bailing from cams could get expensive.

If you build a small anchor consisting of two or three pieces that are placed close together, you can equalize them. This would be much better than just leaving your last two or three placements in hopes that the lower pieces will ‘back-up’ the upper piece, should it fail. Just make sure that the pieces in your anchor are good. If in doubt, add an extra piece to your anchor so that you are sure that it’s solid. No sense in getting hurt while bailing.

However, the best option by far is to have your belayer send you a beer on the tag line and then finish leading the pitch! But don’t forget to have fun too.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2012 - 01:44am PT
Vitally - just so poor Donini doesn't have a stroke..
I'm game for Pakistan on my next big trip...yayayaya

Let's start with Kings Canyon! LOL

PS: Wish I could understand the discussion Chief, Minerals, mucci, Jeremy etc are having about different sizes of rivets and how drilling some of those is almost as good as a bolt....interesting stuff...

Can you guys explain what is currently acceptable for first ascents on walls? As I understand the less bolts is better, and if you have to drill you better do a lot of hooking and maybe do a few moves on drilled holes with a bat hook before you put in a rivet? People do not do bolt ladders any longer?

Jim, I hope to do more and more peaks in the future. I think it is good for me to learn some basics (at least) about all kinds of climbing to be more or less complete.

rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:45am PT
This is a great thread!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:29am PT
“I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.”

Why?

When I am on A4 plus shettin my pants hooking and riveting pitch, the last thing I want is to be carrying tons of shet.

Why carry hangers when you can carry small stoppers already racked and for me easier to use on rivets?

Personal preference I guess.


Also, I have used both Hex head and Button head. Depends on which container I grab when heading out.


PS: I love the holding your truck comment... that's what I am saying.
whitemeat

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:46am PT
how does the follower clean a "tension traverse" For example pitch 3 of the Nose. But not when its a pendulum and the leader just runs it out till the rope is straight up and down, because then it would not be a problem for example Pitch 6south central on the column.


Please try to include pictures !!!!!!
Grippa

Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
http://vimeo.com/4388859 lower out video
whitemeat

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
wow thats a very good video grippa, thanks alot !!!!!!!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
Any thoughts about using a 'Silent Partner' for soloing walls? A lot of people use grigris. What are advantages?

What set up do majority of people who solo walls use?
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#248484

As with all aid climbing, make sure to wear pads.

Safety first.

JA
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
I have a silent partner that I have used doing "practice" aiding but haven't used it on a wall yet. It scares the sh#t out of me everytime, but so far it's always caught me.


Different question....

What's the story behind the OLD rivet ladder on the south side of the Columbia boulder in camp 4. It would be fun practice if the things weren't old as sh#t and the first one wasn't hammered flat....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
i WASNT ON THE INTERNET during bush years...
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
hmmm small KB abut an inch in,, "looks good"!!!
hmmm small KB abut an inch in,, "looks good"!!!
Credit: Ron Anderson

in this shot, ive done an offwidth to reaching blind around the corner to tap a knife balde that bottoms out about an inch in. I tie it off and contemplate the UGLY landing in the talus 15 or more feet below if it pops.



surprised to still be clinging to the stone after the swing around ont...
surprised to still be clinging to the stone after the swing around onto the route form the offwidth..

rack: rurps -many, many small knife blades with many tie off loops, a hook and 1 --1/2 inch angle with tie off loop. cant bring enough TIE OFF loops
Credit: Ron Anderson

it held,, as did the rest under MY body weight - after the third attempt to nail this seam on an overhung pinnacle- it was H-E-I-N-O-U-S...Hook move towards the top and a 1/2" angle tied off in the middle other wise all rurps and tied off bottoming small blades. one goes,, they all woulda..



my contribution to one pitch aid nightmares. "Hairline" fa 78 A4-X.. Eagle lake Cliffs on "off the wall" pinnacle- west face.

inspired by none other than the REAL Batso...



Credit: Ron Anderson


during the first attempts, i lowered off the angle after specific directions to those who tagged along to watch the carnage and belay.. " Once you start lowering me do it steadily with out any stopping or stuttering- THATS IMPERATIVE!" Never have repeated that - doubt ill ever wanna...


None of my belay slaves could weight the first placements without popping them. Ya had to be light,, and DELICATE.. I didnt even breath to hard as to shake them loose. On high ON Elcap, it would be a brilliant crux pitch to some climb, however, at just under 80 feet from the large jagged talus there,, its just feckin stupid.. Maybe it was that "lumbo-gold" ..?


THANK YOU YVONNE CHOUINARD for that most stellar gear!!
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
if you have to drill you better do a lot of hooking and maybe do a few moves on drilled holes with a bat hook before you put in a rivet? People do not do bolt ladders any longer?

Drilled holes on a ladder are BS, nobody on a FA is in that much of a hurry.

If your gonna drill a ladder, you make every attempt to hook naturally btw rivets or bolts, if that does not work out, it's all steel all the way.

Manufacturing difficulty on blank stone is chump.

Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
What Mucci said n sh#t.

But...

I use wooden wedges shimmed into place with a knifeblade but that's just how I roll bitches.

TESTIFY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
i WASNT ON THE INTERNET during bush years...
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
Jeremy,, Ill bet hairline hasnt been repeated- you could bag the coveted "second" while i entertained yur MOM at the base...;-)
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Nice one Ron!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


;-)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
i WASNT ON THE INTERNET during bush years...
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
thank ya,, thank ya vury much!;-)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
nobody on a FA is in that much of a hurry.

But our Vitya is headed to the great ranges where time is money, and life.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
But the great ranges are so far...and I need a beer...and I gotta pee...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
What's the story behind the OLD rivet ladder on the south side of the Columbia boulder in camp 4.

As it must now be more than 50 years old, it might be considered a historical/archaeological relic, and so not to be touched.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
i WASNT ON THE INTERNET during bush years...
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
i believe thats where Royal instructed some Aid years back no?
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 28, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
AID CLIMBING BUMP!


photo not found
Missing photo ID#273610



photo not found
Missing photo ID#261238


GET SOME!

JA

McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Nov 28, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
Is that the belay?
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 28, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
That's part of it...I brought the drill but no bit or wrench. Super sketch and way ghetto.

Turned A1 into A4 as the original Beckey bolts were gone...

Good times!

JA
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 28, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
Would you prefer it melted in your mouth?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Nov 28, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
As fare as Silent Partner vs. Gri-gri for soloing goes, well, one was designed and made for soloing, the maker of the other emphatically states that you should not use it for soloing.

I've soloed two El Cap routes with a Gri-gri and one with a Silent Partner. The Silent Partner, is a far better and far safer tool to self belay with than a Gri-gri.

As a tool, the SP is totally single purpose, the Gri-gri is a really good multifaceted tool that I wouldn't go up on a wall without (in fact, ahem, I've taken a spare, so far, every time I've been up El Cap since I dropped my one and only off of Iron Hawk this spring).
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Nov 28, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
The Silent Partner is versatile too, in the sense you can claim you have a silent partner. Ah yes, I picked up a podner just this year.

(you know, in business)

Sorry dude, slot's been taken, already have all the help I need.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 28, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Hey! Don't you be slanderin' Royal about his drilling skills. I'm 6' 2" and I've done his proud ladders on the Prow and Tis-sa-ack. I had to step it up and stretch. He bragged about the Tis-sa-ack effort in the famous article.






So.... Glen Denny was 6' 10"?....or, was it Wayne Merry?
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 28, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
OK. sorry. I'm not done yet!

I climbed Lurking Fear with my wife Margy and she got the bolt ladder on the 2nd/3rd pitch? She is 5' 0". We set her up with a 2' cheater stick and she made that work. So....what's the problem?



Yes I'm late to the thread.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
Credit: Ron Anderson

expando nailing...on a hideous overhang..

afterward,, it was all beers,buds,, and,,,,,,,Jeremys MOM..;-)
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 01:57am PT
As a tool, the SP is totally single purpose, the Gri-gri is a really good multifaceted tool that I wouldn't go up on a wall without (in fact, ahem, I've taken a spare, so far, every time I've been up El Cap since I dropped my one and only off of Iron Hawk this spring).

Which tasks would grigri help on the wall with aside from belaying? rapelling to clean can be done on it i guess?
man, i wish there were more videos out there...
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:15am PT
I wonder when they are going to make an Aiding shoe with front points
like on crampons and climbing Ninja hooks for the hands. I would think it would save time over standing in aiders on hook placements.

:)
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:40am PT
V-

I use a GriGri for seconding pitches as a backup, with a knot thrown in here and there.

For following traverses where you can re-aid the section, I just drop the jugs and pull slack through the GriGri, with a knot for good measure.

You can haul through a grigri, or use it as a capture device.

It doubles as a second method of ascending should you drop a jumar.

You can short-fix with it much easier than a clove hitch.

The #1 reason for using a grigri on a wall is that you have 2 hands to manage the beer.
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:16am PT
The #1 reason for using a grigri on a wall is that you have 2 hands to manage the beer.

Truth. How are you supposed to make a sandwich, open a can of kippered herring, or play the mandolin while your partner is on lead?

Grigri.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
I use a GriGri for seconding pitches as a backup, with a knot thrown in here and there.

why not use a knot every 30 ft or so? it keeps the rope from getting stuck somewhere wayyyyyy lower too. plus when you are jumaring you would need to stop every so often and feed all the slack that builds up through the gri gri, right? That seems kind of annoying.
But I did see some guy using the gri gri as his back up in the instructional video that was posted earlier. Thank you to whoever made it! Very helpful.

This video: http://vimeo.com/4388859

I've soloed two El Cap routes with a Gri-gri and one with a Silent Partner. The Silent Partner, is a far better and far safer tool to self belay with than a Gri-gri.

thank you!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Nov 30, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
Rapping with a Gri-gri is safer (imho) since if you get konked on the head and lose control of the rope you'll stop. My theory of big wall climbing is to conserve strength at all costs. The Gri-gir is a rope grab that can also release under a load, you don't have any other tools on a wall that can do that.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#134441

photo not found
Missing photo ID#270111

photo not found
Missing photo ID#273587

photo not found
Missing photo ID#270102

photo not found
Missing photo ID#141890

photo not found
Missing photo ID#169483

photo not found
Missing photo ID#161309

photo not found
Missing photo ID#141888

photo not found
Missing photo ID#141889

photo not found
Missing photo ID#135861

photo not found
Missing photo ID#239140

photo not found
Missing photo ID#125527

Aid climbing is for pussies...DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU ARE SO GUNNA DIE...JUST LOOK AT THE GEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
^^^^^^^

CHOSS, I tell ya, CHOSS!!!!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
aint even choss,,, jus MUD....congealed MUD...should just use dry toolin to climb that stuff.


Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Jeremy, thought about aiding ice climbs? Seems more solid. lol
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
My aid climbing boots with front points,(Patent Pending) and climbing Ninja claws should work PERFECT on that Chossy MUD!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
I want to know when the book on aid climbing by Jeremy's mom is coming out.
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
Jeremy: I can only summon a word cloud at the moment... mentally deficient awesome scary insanity ridiculous hilarious


Edit: And after being with your mom, I learned where you get your favorite expression. WOO HOO!!!!!!!
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
Contrary to her modest rating of 5.9+, I had to resort to some aid on jeremys mom.


Yes the hammer came out, so she should be ready for some nutting by the next team.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Contrary to her modest rating of 5.9+

Is that in dollars?
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
Vitaliy;
Shouldn't you be WORKING, changing Bedpans or something?
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
Seems like everyone here is in love with Jeremy's Mom.
She must be BEAUTIFUL.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
Actually, ice screws would probably be pretty good pro on that route.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Nov 30, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
Jeremy probably knows a whole lot about aid climbing, unfortunately, a lot of what he knows I'd be scared to know!
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 03:50pm PT

Yes the hammer came out, so she should be ready for some nutting by the next team.

Bahahaha

Man these Jeremy's mom jokes are good, but too easy.......kind of like Jeremy's mom!!!!!

WOO HOO!!!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
Let's get off Jeremy's mom, cause she can't handle those other five men on her now!!!

jk. looking at all that crazy stuff he does I would not be surprised at all if he showed up with a machine gun at the next supertopo sushi fest gathering lol
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
What about "fraid" climbing. I head a big route in the Black Canyon went that way and also the triple cracks on The Shield.
westhegimp

Social climber
granada hills
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:17am PT
Big V,

Thanks for this topic. Great reading.

Recently I started to learn how to aid climb. I found a lot of good stuff on the internet.

I went back and read All of the stuff PTPP posted on RC.com and elsewhere. This is literally a million words to read.

I did the same for other Aid climbing studs, like Kate=Hold2please, and many many others.

I also read three or four Aid climbing books.

I also enjoyed all of Mark Hudon's TR's. These probably more than anything else got me going in the right direction as far as climbing a big wall. I suggest watching all of his Video posts and reading all of his How to big Wall articles.

bigwalls.com I read every page of every topic.

I watched Chris Mac's How to Aid climb videos over and over.

In between all this research I went out and tried all the stuff I was reading about. I hook bouldered in my garage. I aided the bolt ladders at Stoney and Rocky Peak. I learned how to aid solo on same. Then I took those skills to the Quarry in Riverside. I learned to test and trust most of the gear I placed. I practiced my anchor building skills. I made a 2x1 hauling ratchet and learned how to use it. I bought a haul bag and learned how to rig it, pack it with water, hook it to a swivel with another bag and manage it and it's contents all the way up and down a wall. I bought a ledge and practiced deploying and breaking it down while hanging around in my garage. I learned to solo with a tag bag and how to secure it with a slippery knot. These skills and many many more need to be practiced over and over to be mastered. I probably will never get that far but it is sure fun(sp?) trying.

I slowly bought a bunch of aid gear. I am still buying stuff with no end in sight.

Anyway the whole point of my post is, uh, there is a lot of info out there. You just have to make the time to read it and then learn how to use it.

And there is no such thing as a "stupid question" unless it's the one not asked.

Focus on anything and you will learn rapidly.

Sorry for the long post.

Looking forward to reading about your adventures on the big stone this coming season!

Wes
mackenzie74

Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:26am PT
Some of the stuff in this thread is helpful. Minerals posted real advanced material. Thanks.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Where can I learn about hand placing sawed-off angles? Where do I even get them?
I dream about doing the shield, and I heard the are very helpful there.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Mar 6, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
I borrowed sawed angles from an "older" wall climber but to the best of my knowledge buy some angles and saw them to the desired size.
thekidcormier

Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
Mar 6, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
There is no such thing as a stupid question....














Just....














Oh never mind...

Edit:
Re: sawed offs

They generally retail for twice as much as regular angles which seems silly at first because they're half the size but the steel they make them with is 400% stronger and 4 times more expensive.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
where do they sell them, and where do i find out what size i need for the shield? LOL never seen that beast...
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Mar 6, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
^ V, see this:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/549950/sawed-off-angles
Jacemullen

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 6, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
How do you rack copperheads and rivet hangers? A bunch on a biner? Each biner with a set?

Also, are there any other places to place copperheads other than super flared placement where a nut won't stick? It seems like there has to be a "bottom" to moosh the copperhead against so no deep seams, right?

Going out to practice tomorrow on some choss in the rain.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
kunlun, thanks! maybe I should have googled it at least before asking. Well, that's why I called the thread 'stupid questions' LOL


I rack my rivet hangers with my offset brassies...micro biner would be a good option too probably. Sorry I am no big help.
Messages 1 - 189 of total 189 in this topic
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews