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TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 9, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
That leads immediately to a more overarching point, which is that the feds have no business in this debate. Such things should be decided at the state and even local community level. Gun control is a states' rights issue rather than something the feds have any pressing interest in.

I was beginning to agree with much of your your position until the above point, but the problem with state regulation is that states are prohibited legally (and practically) from constructing customs booths at the state border, effectively castrating state level regulations. A federal requirement for universal background checks is the only way to close the current floodgates of guns flowing into criminal hands (however or wherever administered is of no realistic concern to me).

As for open carry of loaded, unlimited magazine capacity, full-auto firearms, can you provide any possible legitimate purpose for such activity in a public place? The only people who would benefit from such "freedom" are terrorists and homicidal maniacs. Freedom is not just about lack of government oppression, effective gun control laws will make us all more free to enjoy public spaces without the irrational fear of being shot going to the ATM.

TE










madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 9, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
A federal requirement for universal background checks is the only way to close the current floodgates of guns flowing into criminal hands (however or wherever administered is of no realistic concern to me).

Well, I guess where we are going to forever come apart is that I simply don't believe that universal, federally-anchored background checks will serve the function you think they will. So, I stick with this being a states' rights issue.

As for open carry of loaded, unlimited magazine capacity, full-auto firearms, can you provide any possible legitimate purpose for such activity in a public place?

That "legitimate purpose" is going to vary state by state and even community by community. In many/most communities, the average citizen just isn't going to have to defend against armed thugs carrying full-auto munitions. In those communities, full-auto just might be illegal. In other communities, perhaps full-auto might appropriately be legal. The point is that the feds can't make such determinations accurately, so they are not fit to pass such sweeping laws.

Now, I want to mitigate even what I just said above, and I'm sure that this will yet again push us further apart.

The right of self defense was most poignant in the founders' minds with regard to the right of defense against one's government itself. I know, I know, most of you think it's just a ridiculous proposition that we might need to rise up against our government... or that it would even be practically possible. I would respond that the last 20 years or so have made the proposition seem far more likely to me than I would have imagined. And regarding the practical possibility, I've argued elsewhere that one does not have to "win" in order to prevail.

The point of the foregoing paragraph is that citizens must have available to them the sorts of arms they would need to at least engage in infantry-level resistance. We'll leave the tanks, etc. for the National Guard. But full-auto small-arms munitions? Sure.

The only people who would benefit from such "freedom" are terrorists and homicidal maniacs.

Not true. See above. Whether you agree or not, at least I've made the case that citizens would not need to be either "terrorists" or "homicidal maniacs" to have a legitimate use for all sorts of small-arms munitions.

Freedom is not just about lack of government oppression, effective gun control laws will make us all more free to enjoy public spaces without the irrational fear of being shot going to the ATM.

Well, it's hard to know what's going to count as an "irrational fear" in the mind of any particular person. I've been packing for weeks now all over Colorado, and I've gotten three verbal responses so far, all the same: "Thank you for supporting the second amendment." I've gotten repeated smiles, thumbs up, and so forth. No shock, horror, or even the slightest negative reaction. It all depends on what a community is accustomed to.

And I thus far disagree that "effective gun control laws" is a phrase that is anything but a contradiction in terms. Are we really back to the "war on..." arguments? So far I just don't see it.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 9, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
If the sight of a properly holstered pistol on someone who appears to be behaving normally causes you to "fear for your life"....

Well then.... it's you that needs some counseling...

Now as for the clowns with rifles slung in the front in Chili's... yeah, that's just plain silly and everyone I know agrees with that.
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Jul 9, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
Those silly clowns in front of Chilies don't want to openly carry rifles. (I'm NOT one of them). I don't live near texas, but they are protesting that they can't openly carry pistols. They can conceal carry pistols, but open carry pistols is illegal. Long gun open carry is legal, and they believe that to be silly. thus the protest. Nobody is open carrying machine guns. I think it's life in prison when convicted of using a machine gun in a crime. that, plus they are sort of expensive. They just want to strap a pistol on their hip and be on their way. If you are afraid they are up to no good, just google fbi to compare crime stats between CCW holders and non-ccw holders.

scott
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 9, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
I understand the situation in TX but still think rifles slung in the front, and thus at the ready in populated retail outlets is just a really bad idea. Sling 'em on their backs. IMO it would be the same as me carrying a pistol at the low ready position while taking my daughter to McDonalds...

I OC all the time and am around people who do so as well.

The idea that protesting like that will result in anything favorable towards better pistol OC legislation is unlikely.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 9, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
Excellent post Scrubbing Bubbles.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 9, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
A lot of countries have a higher murder rate than we enjoy here in the U.S. In fact, most countries suffer a higher per-capita murder rate. Even Greenland has a higher per-capita murder rate than the U.S. But not one of those countries has a higher rate of gun ownership. None are even close. Less murders, yet more guns. THAT'S American Exceptionalism right there.

Chaz, your post is a great example of statistical silliness. The latest data I've seen (for 2012) does indeed show that 109 countries have a higher murder rate than the US. So, when you say "a lot of countries have a higher murder rate than we enjoy here in the U.S.", you're quite correct.

But there are a couple of things your comment ignores.

First, while it's true that 109 countries have a higher murder rate than the US, there are 110 countries with a lower rate.

And second, if you look at the list of countries with a higher rate, you won't find any that you really want to live in. Seriously. In terms of murder rate, the US is in the company of what our beloved Ron Anderson would call third-world shytholes. The countries in which a sane person would want to live -- you know, first-world countries with thriving economies -- all have lower rates.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 10, 2014 - 06:43am PT
Chaz, your post is a great example of statistical silliness.

That's chaz for you!

DMT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:03am PT
a Nation of obnoxious, anti-social ass-holes

That's a pretty accurate summation there.

And madbolter, if you think everyone's cool with you carrying a weapon around, you're living in denial, my friend.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:04am PT
I can't understand the fear.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:38am PT
Interesting to see that the threat of mutually assured destruction is considered a higher moral than say something like mutual cooperation to ban nuclear weaponry.

It shouldn't be any wonder that folks who grew up under the shadow of the Bomb would feel on-the-hip display of weaponry is a higher "'moral.'" (those are irony quotes)

DMT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:44am PT
I grew up in the shadow of the bomb. We had two drills at school. One was for tornadoes, for that one we went into the hallways. The other was for the Bomb.


Despite that, I still think MAD is mad.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:53am PT
edit: @ Ghost,, which country just lowered the age for WORKERS to 10???

Georgia? That was one of Gingrich's ideas, wasn't it?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 10, 2014 - 09:20am PT


 some of the gun nuts have to watch this piece of gun story


"California has all kinds of background checks, yet criminals here have no problem at all getting their hands on guns."

 Gun will have you doing nothing by the end of this thread...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 10, 2014 - 09:43am PT
Madbolter your belief that background checks don't help keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people (at least some of them who would go on to commit violence with them) defies reason and common sense.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 10, 2014 - 09:49am PT
Background checks don't keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people in California.

California has all kinds of background checks, yet criminals here have no problem at all getting their hands on guns.

Background checks serve mainly to cover the asses of the gun shop and the gun manufacturers.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 10, 2014 - 09:59am PT
Mind boggling...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 10:23am PT
And madbolter, if you think everyone's cool with you carrying a weapon around, you're living in denial, my friend.

I'm not saying or thinking "everyone's cool" with it. I am saying that in Colorado people are not awash in a sea of irrational fear over it.

Big difference!

The US is a nation in which we practice tolerance toward each other regarding all sorts of things we "don't like" but that we recognize as legitimate values in others. We are value-tolerant, and Colorado is a good example of that attitude played out regarding open carry of handguns.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 10:25am PT
Madbolter your belief that background checks don't help keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people (at least some of them who would go on to commit violence with them) defies reason and common sense.

Well, with "at least some," you've got me.

One, perhaps? A couple? A few?

Is it statistically significant? That is the real question. And given the grand experiments of states like California, and places like Chicago and DC, it is FAR from "defying reason and common sense" to question the statistically-demonstrated efficacy of such laws!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 10, 2014 - 10:48am PT
I'm sorry, but I don't want to create a society where some people feel more empowered by carrying a fire arm with them everywhere they go. This changes the whole dynamic when armed and unarmed people interact. It almost forces everyone to carry a gun to have parity. That just sucks.

I am sure the NRA would love to sell just about everyone a gun and ammunition for the rest of their lives (however short), but this starts a cascade of events that will definitely lead to more gun related deaths than saved lives. A lot more. The more people see carrying guns as one of the answers to our societal issues, the worse things will get.

I have no problem with responsible gun ownership, but the notion that everyone should start going around healed like the wild west in order to avoid a government takeover, personal harm, stop gun related crime or foil mass gun murders is a self-fulfilling prophecy and just plain looney. And now you have some posters here gloating over turning other peoples heads to mist with their firepower. I hope it is just a classless troll, otherwise it is pretty sick.

End of Rant

You may now call me commie, hippie, pacifist, liberal pussy or whatever else floats your boat.

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