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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:36am PT
Here's my take on gun control, particularly the idea that people should not be allowed to carry guns in public....

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms accomplish only this:

* They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.

* They make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants.

* They serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides.

Bottom line is that an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one.

**

Wait, to be honest, that's not MY take on gun control. That's the take of Cesare Beccaria's Essay on Crimes and Punishments, quote by Thomas Jefferson's book: The Commonplace Book.

Here's the whole passage:

"The laws of this nature are those which forbid to wear arms, disarming those only who are not disposed to commit the crime which the laws mean to prevent. Can it be supposed, that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, and the most important of the code, will respect the less considerable and arbitrary injunctions, the violation of which is so easy, and of so little comparative importance? Does not the execution of this law deprive the subject of that personal liberty, so dear to mankind and to the wise legislator? and does it not subject the innocent to all the disagreeable circumstances that should only fall on the guilty? It certainly makes the situation of the assaulted worse, and of the assailants better, and rather encourages than prevents murder, as it requires less courage to attack unarmed than armed persons."
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:37am PT
God ran out of manna.

Now I see that you are not somebody that can be engaged with seriously.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:57am PT
I had a buddy of mine who did some roofing in Chicago among various other cities. They were in the south side, in a rough area, doing a big tear off, replacement, etc. and had decided to work through the night to get on the road as soon as possible. Around dark, two cop cars pulled up to their work site and asked them what the hell they were doing. Working through the night, was the reply. The officers laughed heartily at this and asked them if they had guns. The answer was no, at which point the cops informed them that if they were smart, they would leave now, because that was what they were doing themselves. They had just happened to see his roofing crew on their out of the housing project.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:02am PT
Regarding quoting odds of being shot by my own gun, please offer us, the American public, with the alternative approach to self-defense.

Your question implies that making it harder for criminals to get guns would somehow eliminate your right to bear arms in self defense. Gun control legislation is not mutually exclusive with the right to bear arms, together they are mutually beneficial to "promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty".

I have carried a gun for self defense when I judged that the risks outweighed the benefits, you are entitled to do the same. Perhaps you are forced to live or work in a high crime neighborhood, and have no other employment or residential options, if so, owning or carrying a gun may genuinely improve your safety. For the majority of the population, this is not the case.

Carrying a gun doesn't preclude you from actively supporting legislation that would reduce the odds of ever needing it. Supporting such legislation would undoubtedly save lives, but your buying and carrying a gun is extremely unlikely to.

TE








Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:22am PT
That'd be fine, except nobody's proposing making it harder for criminals to get guns. All the gun control efforts I'm aware of serve only to make it harder for the law abiding to get guns.

It's already illegal for criminals to possess firearms. And if some law-abiding citizen decides to commit his first-ever crime this afternoon, there's an extra added penalty for using a firearm in commission of that crime.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Supporting such legislation would undoubtedly save lives, but your buying and carrying a gun is extremely unlikely to.

Chicago is the grand experiment that demonstrates your perspective here is incorrect.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:40am PT
Ladies need a slightly smaller frame and a softer recoil for a lot of them, so the 9mm is by far the good choice.

I totally agree. My wife can handle our .40, but she's longer getting back on target than is ideal. Even a 9mm is a very solid weapon, and it's certainly better for her.

I'm looking into the Walther because it is almost functionally identical to the P30 (just lacks a slide release, and the safety up/down is reversed). Any thoughts on that? Best concealed gun for my wife?

In my pre-purchase research spanning months, it appears that there is very little difference between the effectiveness of the 9mm vs .40 vs .45. Ammo matters, and shot placement trumps all. I do love the feel of the P30, though. Best gun I've ever shot, by far! Expensive, though.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:44am PT
Perhaps you are forced to live or work in a high crime neighborhood, and have no other employment or residential options, if so, owning or carrying a gun may genuinely improve your safety.

As the Northglenn mugging a few weeks ago demonstrates (and what motivated me to finally take the plunge), you CANNOT know what is a "high crime area." What seems like a decent and safe area simply is not.

If you grant, as you appear to, that packing a gun can be a good thing in a "high crime area," then its goodness is sweeping, as you simply don't know what is "high crime" and what is just you getting mugged or accosted.

If right next door to our office can be a broad-daylight mugging scene, then it can happen anywhere (and actually does).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:46am PT
MB, have you considered one of the new Glocks for the wife? From what I've read the new
double spring lessens recoil noticeably.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:48am PT
We tried out that Desert Eagle, and it does scream quality. But it is a heavy gun, even the 1911 version. I was hoping for one gun that would be good for both of us. But I'm seeing that even the .40 is a bit much for my wife. She's just too small-built to recover from the recoil and get back on target quickly. She handles it just fine, but the retargetting delay is unacceptable. So, a .45 would be the same issue.

Gotta go .380 or 9mm for her. Even the .380 has acceptable penetration, and within typical self-defense range it is accurate enough that shot placement is a go.

I hear, though, that all .380s jam quite a bit. The Walther is supposedly better on this score, but "better" isn't good if it's an actual problem!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:51am PT
Thanks, Reilly. We actually tried various Glocks, and she hates the way they all feel in her hand.

I am also a big believer in an exposed hammer and external safety. That debate could rage endlessly of course, but I'm not an internal striker fan at all.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Mmm... that Colt Mustang does look sweet!

I'm gonna have to check that out and then see if she likes it.

Thanks!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:09am PT
Indeed!

Now, if she will only like the feel of the grip....

Fingers crossed.

Thanks for the suggestions! And this is a much more productive direction for this thread to go. ;-)
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:19am PT
After trying various styles of handguns for the wife, she grabed my 38 special (wheel gun)It works for her as it is a point and shoot, and she does not have to work the slide. She always has some kind of lotion or goop on her hands and not alot of finger strengh. She also likes my taurus "Judge" with 410 shot shells as shes not that good of a aim either.But in case of a intruder she will a least scare them off with with plenty of shot pellets.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:20am PT
Well, there's no "perfect gun." There's only the one that fits an individual best and enables him/her to place shots consistently, reliably, and comfortably.

Then it's train, train, train... until shot placement and tactical awareness are second nature. Then train some more.

It is great that there are SO many good options, though. One CAN find the "good" gun for about anybody.

A bit of reading, and I'm liking that Colt more and more. Great suggestion, Ron. Ahh... will she like the grip? Hehe
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:23am PT
I'm surprised she doesn't even like the small Glock, the 28 is it with the interchangeable grips?
I can only get a couple of fingers around that handle.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:23am PT
She also likes my taurus "Judge" with 410 shot shells as shes not that good of a aim either.But in case of a intruder she will a least scare them off with with plenty of shot pellets.

We've considered that option also, and it's certainly not off the table. In most cases, just pulling a gun makes the roaches scatter, which is all you really need to accomplish. And getting hit with a load of 410 up close and personal will make most anyone want to drag themselves off (if they can) to reconsider their life of crime!

Well, gotta go to the range. I'll check back later in the afternoon.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:40am PT
If you grant, as you appear to, that packing a gun can be a good thing in a "high crime area," then its goodness is sweeping, as you simply don't know what is "high crime" and what is just you getting mugged or accosted.

Not so at all. Owning a gun increases the chances of you or a family member being shot. Any increase in safety against muggers/burglars/mass murderers/bogeymen needs to offset the increased risk from intentional or accidental use of that gun, or from the poor decisions you make because you have that gun. For most people, this calculation should be simple.

The FBI reports about 200 "justifiable homicides" by civilians each year, compared to about 600 accidental deaths by firearm, and almost 2000 women murdered with a firearm by their husband or boyfriend. You'd have have to live in a really shitty area to counteract those odds.

TE



madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
You'd have have to live in a really shitty area to counteract those odds.

It all depends on how you interpret the "odds." This is a classic example of why Twain said, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Put your "odds" up against hundreds of millions of handguns owned and tens of millions carried, and I'd say that the "odds" are looking pretty good that you're gonna get hit by lightening many times before you're gonna shoot yourself or be shot by your own gun.

And the FBI statistics don't list how many incidents were outright averted just by the presence of a legally-carried handgun. Those are impossible to know. What we DO know is that in the US there is a clear correlation between increasingly restrictive handgun laws and increased incidents of homicides by handgun. Again, Chicago is a tough nut to crack for gun-control proponents, as is Washington DC.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
LOL... so I did a bit of a test today. I drank a lot of caffeinated soda until I was nice and jittery. Then at the range I fired at double my typical cadence. As expected, I had about half the accuracy as usual.

After thousands of rounds fired, it never ceases to amaze me what slight variations of "aim" produce a huge difference down range. The physics of trajectory make it downright amazing that we can ever hit anything at all. LOL

So, trying to approximate something of the physical jitters that would be likely in a real incident, it's clear that I need to stay with the caffeine and change up the cadence until I get that more dialed in. Today reminds me yet again: "Gun control is a steady hand."

The whole discipline of shooting well is extremely enjoyable.
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