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Social climber
So Cal
Jul 6, 2014 - 07:46pm PT

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 6, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
Partly as a result of this very thread, I've now purchased an H&K P30 .40, and I'm open-carrying it everywhere. My wife also shoots it (it's a pretty powerful gun for her, but she can HIT with it!), and we're about to apply for our Colorado CCWs. Even once I have the CCW, I'll probably open-carry 1/3 to 1/2 the time, whichever is most convenient or makes the most tactical sense for the situation.

Here in Colorado, people have so far had only positive things to say about it. People here actually want an armed citizenry. Even our dem-liberal governor is back-peddling literally as fast as he can from his ill-fated and downright stupid foray into gun control. What gun-control there was in Colorado is soon to go away, returning us to one of the best states in the country!

It's been decades since I was a shooter, but it's quickly coming back. It's only been not quite two weeks, and I can already consistently do 50% 3-inch group and 80% 6-inch group from 25 yards (100% 8-inch group). In short, I'm going to hit a very bad spot in the torso 100% of the time from far farther out than most defensive shootings take place. Look at the distance in the grandpa video above. At 25 yards, the targets I use appear much smaller than my thumbnail.

I've always loved shooting, so thanks guys for helping get me back into it! Colorado is just a tiny bit safer now than it was, and I wish that virtually all of my fellow citizens would follow suit.

What really pushed me over the edge was about two weeks ago a broad-daylight mugging at an ATM just across the street from our office. I had thought of our area as a very decent and safe part of Denver-metro. It seems that the bottom-feeders can surface anywhere! If the female victim had been armed, the odds are high that she would have kept her money, and the mugger would have had his criminal ways put to an end.

I don't intend for either me or my wife to be helplessly victimized. And open-carry is a well-known deterrent. Like a locked door, the sight of a gun tells a bottom-feeder, "Keep scrounging for easier pickings." And if a bottom-feeder saw even 20% of people around the putative crime scene were armed, he is going to take his plans elsewhere rather than risk being shot by a bystander.

And "elsewhere" is all we want!

It's time to drive these creeps outta town. Just displaying the capacity to defend yourself and others helps move them elsewhere, such as California, NY, NJ, DC, or Chicago, where they can count on a completely unarmed citizenry.

Meanwhile, my wife and I will keep training. I want 100% 3-inch group at 25 yards. And there's lots more to it than pure marksmanship! But it's very satisfying on many levels.

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 01:22am PT
what happens if the female ATM victim whips out her piece and the junkie mugger whips out his pistol too? Guess we might have a dead female victim?

So, let me be sure I understand what you are saying here.

"Better to accept a life of victim-mentality than to risk dying by refusing to live like a victim." Is that it?

So, the thinking that founded this country is now completely gone? "Give me liberty or give me death?" We just don't live by anything like that anymore?

Well, maybe some of you can "live" like a victim and "hope for the best," but not many of us.

Men tend to shoot better

Are you serious?

And you mean that even the "junkie mugger" is a better shot?

LOL... you should see the WOMEN I see at the range! MOST people that are packing are well-practiced and well-trained (many put in more hours in training than do cops). They take it seriously. By contrast, "junkie mugger" stole his piece or bought it from some other slimeball, and he probably hasn't even fired it once. He waves it around for intimidation value and hopes it will fire if he ever "needed" it to.

I think you've got the "likely" scenario totally reversed.

"Junkie mugger" would be dropping to the ground, his body not responding as desired, as his last trickle of conscious thought would be something like, ""

But, of course, the victim mentality can't bring itself to take ANY risk. Its motto is: "Better to live groveling on your face than die on your feet."

Oh, and where IS that cop when you need one? As the saying goes: When seconds count, the cops are mere minutes away. The "manhunt" is still on for this "junkie mugger," weeks later, but he won't be caught regarding this incident. He'll keep working his game... until somebody puts him down.

And in Colorado, somebody probably will put him down, which is how this SHOULD play out.

This fact is why 56 of 62 Sheriffs in Colorado filed suit to overturn the recent gun-control laws, why they said they would not enforce the laws, and why Colorado is a shall-issue CCW state. This fact is why two state politicians got recalled, a third resigned before the infamy of a recall, and why the governor is now publicly stating that he is looking forward to undoing his "ill-considered" mistake asap (only way he has a HOPE of keeping his job).

Wild horses and a million dollar offer could not drag me back to California, or to any of the other "safe" gun-control states that actually have the highest incidence of gun homicides and other violent crimes. Yeah, all your gun control has sure made Chicago, LA, DC, and other such places really, really safe. You can have that "safety." I (and my wife) prefer to live in a state where personal responsibility still means something.


Jul 7, 2014 - 05:53am PT
How many people were killed during Maos reign again Randisi? Do you think that they were glad they were unarmed? It's curious that the biggest genocides tend to be in unarmed societies.

Let us examine "The worst genocides of the 20th and 21st Centuries"

....And it's Mao for the win! The British newspaper Independant suggests ONLY 45,000,000 murdered by Mao and his minions, wheras that links suggests 49,000,000-78,000,000 were murdered and killed. A million murdered here...a million murdered there, pretty soon it's big numbers of dead.

So there is that but I'm glad you feel safe. But consider that you are worried about a single loonie running in the streets whereas I am much more concerned about a single loonie running the country. For that very reason I feel safer when people like madbolter are armed, it only takes one loonie like Mao, like Pol Pot, like Hitler, like Stalin, like Idi Amin, like insert name here etc etc etc etc) to get elected (or wiggle their way into office) to see that kind of mass murder occur. In my view it's nice to not be unarmed and preyed on by an armed government. The 2nd amendment is the amendment that gives the other ones teeth.

BTW, speaking of freedoms, you don't really know how safe you are or are not as China rigorously cracks down on what news can be reported. So I guess you'd do better living in the US if you just turned off your news/TV sources. There's another freedom, the first amendment of free speech, you don't get in China. Personally, I like China. It's an amazing place full of incredible folks. I like France as well. I feel as safe in those countries as in my own. But you have no idea how safe or unsafe it is in China as you don't get it reported.


Jul 7, 2014 - 06:05am PT
Hardly pointless. Review why the fourth of July was just celebrated for example. Here's some info to consider vis a vis our version of what we believe freedom to be:

"Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday."

Have you read up on this over there? Nope, didn't think so. Pick most of the amendments and you won't find a corollary in China. So congrats on that, AND you get to feel safe too. Not actually be safe if you choose to be an independent thinker or pick the wrong religion however. It is not some ancient history long in the past either. If you Google "Falen Gong" you won't see anything if you are in China most likely but in the rest of the world we see things like this crap below. This is what incorrect thinking gets you in China, originating from a Falen Gong practitioner:

"Here's some illustrations of Torture Methods Used to Persecute Falun Gong Practitioners (9 - 12)


Torture Method 9: "Feeding the Insects"

(Caption: Police say, "Whoever does not obey us will be tied up outside as food for the mosquitoes!"

In the summer time, especially around dusk or dawn, the police strip practitioners of every piece of their clothing and handcuff them to a pole in a place where mosquitoes and other insects swarm. Practitioners are bitten over and over again all over their bodies by various insects. Not long after, their bare skin is covered with itchy bumps. Sometimes they cannot even open their eyes because their eyelids are so swollen.

This torture was often used by gangs of bandits in the past to punish captives who violated their rules. Sometimes people even died from being bitten by poisonous insects. Now this torture is used by police in Chinese labor camps to torture innocent people who believe in "Truthfulness-Compassion-Tolerance."

Torture Method 10: Pouring Freezing Cold Water Over People

In the freezing cold winter, the police instigate criminals to keep pouring cold water on practitioners, causing them to be frozen, suffer frostbite and numbness. Sometimes part or all of their body would become paralyzed. Some people even suffer loss of speech and memory.

Torture Method 11: Electric Shocks

(Caption: the prison doctor says, "Captain, he has passed out. The voltage won't go any higher. What shall I do?")

What is displayed here is called the electric needle. The police can adjust the electric current and voltage at will. If the voltage and current is high, the victim would bounce on the bed from the shock. He would suffer cramps all over his body and incontinence of his bladder and bowels. If the victim has a weak heart, he could easily die on the spot. Many practitioners on hunger strike are repeatedly subjected to such torture.

Other similar torture methods include: long-term shocking with high-voltage electric batons, cranking a hand-crank telephone to generate electricity to shock practitioners who are tied to with the telephone, using medical devices to generate electricity to shock practitioners, lining the walls and top of a small cage with electric needles to shock practitioners who relax or drift off to sleep while chained up bent over, unable to completely stand, squat or sit (a cruel form of sleep deprivation torture that is sometimes used for weeks on end), etc.

In order to achieve their goal, sometimes the police employ various means to make practitioners suffer even more. For instance, they shock practitioners with many electric batons simultaneously; they soak practitioners in water and then shock them; or shock sensitive parts of the body, including eyelids, soles of the feet, armpits, neck, etc. After the electric shock, the skin would be badly burnt, develop blisters and even fester. Such torture also causes damage to the internal organs and nervous system. Also, the victim suffers from psychological trauma.

What's more despicable is that the police shock practitioners' mouths, private parts and anus for long periods of time. They even shock female practitioners' breasts and private parts, sexually violating them while shocking them with the electro-shock batons.

Torture Method 12: Stabbing with sharp objects

The police use a screwdriver or other sharp object to stab the back of practitioners' hands, attempting to force them to give up their belief in Dafa. The victim will bleed profusely and often pass out due to the excruciating pain.

Such torture is extremely brutal. Other similar means include: nailing bamboo spikes into practitioners' fingers, chopping [hitting] practitioners' hands with hard-soled shoes, hammering practitioners' hands with a hammer or drilling into practitioners' hands with an electric drill.

if you read chinese one can get a clearer picture here:

Bottom line, being a Christian is incorrect thinking subjecting you to torture. However, in China, they are spared such pointless bickering. Be safe indeed.


Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 06:28am PT
Madbolter, no doubt you feel really big carrying a gun around, but I wouldn't trust you or anyone else to use it responsibly. Especially in the heat of the moment brought on by some perceived threat. And if thieves really deserve to die, why not take a stroll down Wall Street and really make a difference?

Man, this gun-toting attitude is sickening.
And it's pretty hilarious that anyone thinks being armed will protect them from the government. Ha! They will smash you to bits need be.

Jul 7, 2014 - 06:29am PT
Wow, ^^^there's some logic.^^^


Now run off and play and let the grownups talk.


Big Wall climber
So Far East I might as well be dead
Jul 7, 2014 - 06:43am PT
If you don't have a gun, the day may come when your opinion won't matter.
"God may have created all men, but Sam Colt made them equal."
I don't remember who said that, but it is as true as the sky is blue.

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 06:54am PT
Even with a gun my opinion matters little. To think otherwise is delusional.

Sorry America, but this is just another sign that your society is devolving and it saddens me.
All the guns in the world won't stop the top-down rape and pillaging.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Jul 7, 2014 - 07:05am PT

You forgot the percentage of common sense...


Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 7, 2014 - 07:21am PT
, I've now purchased an H&K P30 .40, and I'm open-carrying it everywhere. My wife also shoots it

Great, now the chances of your wife wife being shot have increased by 600%. Surely fairness would dictate that she gets a gun of her own, or perhaps you are not THAT stupid?

Take a very good look at that gun, you are by far the most likely person to be shot with it, next is your wife, followed by your kids, then one of their friends, then one of your friends or neighbors, or someone at the range. But that's okay if it means you're not scared of the homicidal mugger bogeyman anymore.



Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 07:31am PT
What are Christians doing with guns anyway? My guess is they don't really believe in God's good grace and protection.

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:51am PT
Madbolter, no doubt you feel really big carrying a gun around, but I wouldn't trust you or anyone else to use it responsibly. Especially in the heat of the moment brought on by some perceived threat.

In that event, you should also think that cops should not have guns. They typically engage in less training than the typical armed citizen. Furthermore, there are countless incidents of cops engaged in spray-and-pray tactics, emptying their entire magazine and hitting nothing. This is so common among cops that they are as much at risk as anybody else. So, you would prefer to disarm everybody (except, of course, the criminals).

As far as feeling "big," wow, are you ever clueless.

And, Couchmaster, I don't "wave it around."

Regarding the open carry of long-guns, it's tactically absurd, no doubt. And walking into a restaurant with a long gun in your hand (or even strapped to your back) is a much more in-your-face display of a gun than having something like my compact pistol barely visible in a full-depth holster on the hip.

You have to put the whole thing in context. These guys in Texas are basically protesting the fact that only long guns can be carried, and they want the law changed to allow handguns to be open carried. So, yes, they are being over the top. But all forms of protest are over the top in some sense. That's the whole point of a protest.

Do I think they are ultimately helping their own cause? No, it's doubtful. Do I think they are ultimately hurting the perception of open carry in general? Yup, very likely. Target has responded to them by banning guns of all sorts in its stores.

Regarding quoting odds of being shot by my own gun, please offer us, the American public, with the alternative approach to self-defense.

None? No right of self-defense at all? We just wait for the cops to clean up messes after they occur?

Some? We get to throw rocks or other found objects?

Such statistical quoting is really fallacious, as you can turn such statistics on their heads! Compared to the number of guns people own and carry, the odds are infinitesimally tiny that one will be shot with their own gun. Furthermore, the fact that a few goofballs using unsafe guns and unsafe methods shoot themselves is irrelevant to the reality that the vast majority of gun-carriers use safe guns and methods, and that vast majority will never be shot with their own or any other gun.

Again, the cops are NO better off on this score. Even they are far more likely to be shot with their own gun than to shoot a criminal. So, again, do you advocate disarming cops? Give us a bunch of unarmed "bobbies" running around like in England?

No thanks!

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:55am PT
What are Christians doing with guns anyway? My guess is they don't really believe in God's good grace and protection.

What are Christians doing with a job anyway? My guess is they don't really believe in God's good grace and providence.

sandstone conglomerate

sharon conglomerate central
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:58am PT
I posted this in the border war thread, but it probably should be here. It's like the wild west in the mid west.

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:58am PT
"What are Christians doing with a job"?

God ran out of manna.

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:24am PT
Yet, even with the best police and the best policing strategy in the world, without better state and federal laws to keep guns off the streets and out of the hands of dangerous criminals, we'll continue to face an uphill battle.

This was my favorite line from the article. It's drips with irony!

Chicago has about the strictest gun control laws in the country. They have about the highest rate of illegal gun possession and use among criminals. They also have about the highest murder rate in the country, not to mention other violent crime.

And exactly WHAT proposed federal gun-control laws would "keep guns off the streets and out of the hands of dangerous criminals?" WHICH proposed federal laws would DO this that Illinois/Chicago does not already have in place (to no avail)?

Chicago is THE classic example of that old saw: Make guns illegal, and only criminals will have guns.

I'll tell you what: Take away all of Chicago's gun laws and restrictions, arm the citizens to the teeth, and you'll have an immediate rash of additional shootings. For awhile it will be like the wild, wild west. And then that will peak and subside, and the criminals will be driven back underground. The incidence of shootings will dramatically decrease, as will violent crime in general. Chicago will become safer, and the job of the cops will become easier.

Unless you want a police state, the cops in principle cannot protect the "flock." The flock will continually be fleeced until it grows some horns and starts actively fighting back. Chicago has been a grand and utterly failed experiment in gun control.

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:36am PT
Here's my take on gun control, particularly the idea that people should not be allowed to carry guns in public....

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms accomplish only this:

* They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.

* They make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants.

* They serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides.

Bottom line is that an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one.


Wait, to be honest, that's not MY take on gun control. That's the take of Cesare Beccaria's Essay on Crimes and Punishments, quote by Thomas Jefferson's book: The Commonplace Book.

Here's the whole passage:

"The laws of this nature are those which forbid to wear arms, disarming those only who are not disposed to commit the crime which the laws mean to prevent. Can it be supposed, that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, and the most important of the code, will respect the less considerable and arbitrary injunctions, the violation of which is so easy, and of so little comparative importance? Does not the execution of this law deprive the subject of that personal liberty, so dear to mankind and to the wise legislator? and does it not subject the innocent to all the disagreeable circumstances that should only fall on the guilty? It certainly makes the situation of the assaulted worse, and of the assailants better, and rather encourages than prevents murder, as it requires less courage to attack unarmed than armed persons."

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:37am PT
God ran out of manna.

Now I see that you are not somebody that can be engaged with seriously.
sandstone conglomerate

sharon conglomerate central
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:57am PT
I had a buddy of mine who did some roofing in Chicago among various other cities. They were in the south side, in a rough area, doing a big tear off, replacement, etc. and had decided to work through the night to get on the road as soon as possible. Around dark, two cop cars pulled up to their work site and asked them what the hell they were doing. Working through the night, was the reply. The officers laughed heartily at this and asked them if they had guns. The answer was no, at which point the cops informed them that if they were smart, they would leave now, because that was what they were doing themselves. They had just happened to see his roofing crew on their out of the housing project.
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