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mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
But how people reacted to that has changed, and in large- due to the way the VA uses blanket treatments

I don't think that is fair. Modern warfare is NOTHING like it used to be. Soldiers would sit in trenches or foxholes until it was time to launch an attack or defend against the same, and then shoot it out with other soldiers.

From my understanding, the modern wars in the ME involve townspeople the soldiers had interacted with on a daily basis all the sudden opening fire on them. That has got to be FAR more stressful than "conventional" warfare. Anyone who has had to live through that and shows signs of PTSD seems like a pretty high risk to me.


Anyone can snap for any reason at any time.

But some are way more prone than others. The vast majority of murderers show signs of mental instability before they kill. Why not have a bit of screening to pick out the Rouths or Hasans before they snap? Why not focus on treatment, funded by huge fines imposed on straw purchasers/negligent gun shops? Mentally ill people who are a threat to themselves or others lose many of their rights and freedoms already, why exclude the 2nd amendment?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
Far more stressfull than IwoJima?? No way in hell. More stressful than the thick jungles of NAM? Again,,perhaps equal in some ways but no way MORE stressful. They wiped out whole villages in Nam, and far more than just miLai. Men,Women, kids, dogs and pigs. war is hell. How men react to that hell will either make, or break them. Ive had family members on both sides of the coin. My Uncle Red for instance, was a very high IQ genious that went into Navel Intel in WW11. Whatever he was involved with turned him into a barely coherent alchaholic When he came out. In his case he shouldnt have been around guns. But that was also OBVIOUS to even me a tiny kid - that Uncle Red wasnt all there. War does have its mental victims, but not nearly what are diagnosed as such in todays times. That comes from someone that was in the know with the VA.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Wes,

it does seem that a lot people nowadays tend to denigrate PTSD, poo pah it as merely some kind of made up weakness, almost a ploy to get diagnosed with and receive a VA benefit check

because it is mental and not like being in a wheel chair with both legs blown off in Iraq

"mental" afflictions have historically been seen by the dumb fuks as not that legitimate an issue
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
blah blah blah... I consider Nam to be non-conventional "modern" war... and yes, VERY stressful... thank you for helping to illustrate my point....

VERY STRESSFUL


a ploy to get diagnosed with and receive a VA benefit check

Fine. Give them the benefit check, give them treatment, and take away their guns until they are all better. Seems pretty fuking simple.


Problems, problems, problems... no solutions... no wonder this country is fuked.

Merka... bunch of whiny bitches who can't solve their own problems, won't let their elected officials do it, praise their system of government as the greatest EVER, know there are some who OBVIOUSLY shouldn't have guns, but are too afraid that their government will conquer them if they try to restrict gun ownership AT ALL. Pathetic.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
i cant remember the specifics, but there was a case in the last year or so where some vet was using PTSD as an excuse for something, and it turned ut he was a supply clerk or REMF. A supply clerk that was no where near a battle of any shape or form. I guess i suffer ptsd every night after finishing the days projects cuz i feel like that lol!
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
That has got to be FAR more stressful than "conventional" warfare. Anyone who has had to live through that and shows signs of PTSD seems like a pretty high risk to me.

Check out the casualty rates of soldiers in WWI (in those lovely trenches) and compare with the casualty rates of soldiers in Vietnam or the modern wars in the Middle East.
The etymology of "shell shock" is also kind of interesting.
If the modern wars in the ME were anything like good old fashioned total wars, we wouldn't be in that sh#t.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Casualty rates have little or nothing to do with it. In fact, I'd venture a wager with the all mighty that those ill suited for war were among the first to die in WWI (2% casualty rate) and WWII (2.5%), whereas a higher percentage of ill suited soldiers survived the mental fukfest that was Nam (0.7% casualty rate).

Tactics change. Guerrilla warfare involving citizens is OBVIOUSLY more stressful... and obviously has a much higher chance of affecting the mental health of someone reentering society. I've heard of numerous cases where soldiers wanted to go back because they couldn't deal with life over here.

Thank god for drones and the computer game trained soldiers of the future.(?)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
guerilla warfare involving citzens yu say?? You mean the S Vietnamese werent citizens?? You mean all those vills they strolled through day after day, not knowing which side those vills stood for, in a thickass jungle with snakes ,spiders, malaria and such ,werent as stressful as at least having a building to hide around? Is that right...Hrmmfff. and Bull shyt.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
Heres a far back simplistic view: The MORE we hear PTSD ADD ADHD and BFD, the worse our society has become. Is this all an excuse for poor behavoir starting young?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
guerilla warfare involving citzens yu say?? You mean the S Vietnamese werent citizens??

No Ron, I have already said I consider Nam to be non-conventional warfare, at least on par with the more recent wars in the ME.

But feel free to keep twisting it all you want. I'd expect nothing less.

Is this all an excuse for poor behavoir starting young?

Of course not. It is a diagnosis ascribed to someone who exhibits particular symptoms in hopes of better understanding the causes and ultimately treating the patient. Only a fool would look at it as an excuse.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
well,

I personally volunteer at the local VA hospital

I see the effect that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan has had on these young men and women

not talking about the missing arms and legs

when I sit be their bedside and listen to them talk about how unprepared they were to be pulled out of a war zone and sent back to the United States......their constant nightmares and their very real fears and anger......

PTSD is very real, very personal, and is every bit as crippling as physical wounds

anyone who thinks otherwise is naive, uninformed, and just plain fuking stupid as hell
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Norton, my brother was a 1st sgt, non-com of the year TWICE, was on the cambodian border doing CIA and Air america crap . He was in the shyt as they say. And yes there were those that were affected greatly by action and HAVE PTSD,,but my brother Worked as a career counselor for over ten years after his thirty. His words-- Drs are pressured or just inclined to dose out the pills. He said over-all they were doing more damage than good as were diagnosis of PTSD, when really, they had returned from their service in the same shape they had left in, lost... They just needed to be re-focused on the positive aspects of that service. That according to an over 10 yr profesional in that field.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Sorry Ron, but as a scientist (and somewhat rational human being) it is hard for me not to comment on the absurdity of your posts. There are over 1 million mental health specialists with the VA, you hinge your entire argument on the opinion of one. There are probably a comparable number of applicable studies, you disregard them all.

Your approach is the same, regardless of the topic or discipline... you've made up your mind as to how the world works and will ignore the vast majority of evidence that contradicts your views and latch onto the few unnamed, unvetted, undocumented OPINIONS that support them. And you wonder why people don't show you more respect.

Thank god for old people who are able to keep an open mind!


Funny, this is the first picture on the VA's site:
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Ron,

I am not sure of the point you are trying to make about PTSD

you seem to recognize its effects on soldiers

but then you seem to also down play its effects, almost like you believe PTSD is some kind of fake
and is over prescribed and maybe Doctors should not be treating it with medications

just where do you stand on this, sorry I can't tell?

or maybe you aren't sure and just posting whatever comes to mind?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
Not at all Norton.. I know very well real PTSD exits. However it is also diagnosed too often and the ensuing drugs are also given out too often. That and the fact that many returning Vets shouldnt have their gun rights taken away just because they have moinor PTSD symptoms. And it certainly shouldnt be a balnket policy to qualify all battle vets as PTSD victims and strip their gunrights--and that was how we got to here.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
However it is also diagnosed too often and the ensuing drugs are also given out too often.


and this you know for sure to be true from your research into VA internal medical findings?

or is your statement simply your opinion


and I am sure you agree that returning Vets who are diagnosed by professionals as suffering from PTSD and those same psychiatric professionals state those Vets should not be armed in the USA

or do you now know more about those kinds of VA diagnosis than the VA does?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
I know very well real PTSD exits. However it is also diagnosed too often and the ensuing drugs are also given out too often.

Apparently we just can't trust professionals with decades of training and experience. Apparently the only way to get anything right is to consult Ron on all decisions about everything.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
up yurz wes.. My Brother was a counsleor for the VA and that is his PROFESSIONAL opinion.. As a counsleor AND one who was in the shyt. NEITHER of which youve been.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
As a scientists I am WELL aware that OPINIONS differ. I respect differing OPINIONS when they are supported by data and/or solid theory.

I respect your brother's professional OPINION... along with the other million + mental health care specialists who work with vets. But I'm sure someone else has a brother who has a different professional OPINION, right?

So, how do we determine the proper course of action? (psst, the answer lies in the studies and data... it does NOT involve asking ONE person their OPINION).


Back to (my impression of) Norton's question: You don't deny the horrors and stresses of modern (Nam to now) guerrilla warfare. Given these horrible experiences and the quickness with which modern day vets are taken from society, exposed to the horrors of war, and then thrown back into society... and the fact that WAY more of them survive than in any previous war... is it REALLY that unlikely that more of them suffer from PTSD or similar? Should we stop diagnosing them based on your brother's opinion... or at least consult your brother regarding each diagnosis?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
Stuidy this:





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