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WBraun

climber
Mar 21, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
Fact: !!!

Americans should NEVER give up their guns.

Never.

Not to lying, cheating and terrorizing people who claim they are protecting them, the so called Govt. of the people.

If the the United States Government was honest then there would be no problem ......
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
Werner has spoken......



and lots of places worse than here.



UNODC murder rates most recent year
Subregion Rate Count Region
Eastern Africa 21.9 69,344 Africa
Middle Africa 20.8 25,330 Africa
Northern Africa 5.9 12,276 Africa
Southern Africa 30.5 17,484 Africa
Western Africa 15.4 44,671 Africa
Caribbean 16.9 7,001 Americas
Central America 28.5 44,997 Americas
Northern America 3.9 13,558 Americas
South America 20.0 79,039 Americas
Central Asia 6.1 3,667 Asia
Eastern Asia 1.3 19,828 Asia
South-Eastern Asia 6.0 34,787 Asia
Southern Asia 3.8 63,102 Asia
Western Asia 2.6 5,736 Asia
Eastern Europe 6.4 19,072 Europe
Northern Europe 1.5 1,432 Europe
Southern Europe 1.4 1,669 Europe
Western Europe 1.0 1,852 Europe
Australasia 1.0 268 Oceania
Melanesia 11.1 898 Oceania
Micronesia 2.5 10 Oceania
Polynesia 0.1 3 Oceania
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Mar 21, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
thanks Ron for having my back a bit!

scott
jghedge

climber
Mar 21, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
"and lots of places worse than here."


List of the 32 Developed Democracies
with Populations Greater than One Million

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Korea (South)
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Trinidad and Tobago
Taiwan
United Kingdom
United States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate



We have, by far, the highest gun murder rate of any of these countries, at 3.2 per 100,000, and 12,000 gun murders in 2012

The closest is Switzerland, at 0.52, and 24 gun murders in 2009 - where the gun laws are the most similar to the US

The other EU countries vary between 0.25 and 0.50 - rare enough to practically be non-existent


Japan population 128 million, gun murders 2008: 11


Sorry, but those numbers don't lie. The only valid debate now is how to get our gun murder rates down to those levels.


But don't let the facts get in the way of your willful ignorance, gun nuts









jghedge

climber
Mar 21, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
"Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. With almost one privately owned firearm per person, America's ownership rate is the highest in the world; tribal-conflict-torn Yemen is ranked second, with a rate about half of America's."

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/


jghedge

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 07:26am PT
"and lots of places worse than here."


At which point you provide a list of countries with murder rates lower than ours, without apparently realizing it.


saghi

Trad climber
Muskogee, OK
Mar 22, 2013 - 07:38am PT
Fact: !!!

Americans should NEVER give up their guns.

Never.

Not to lying, cheating and terrorizing people who claim they are protecting them, the so called Govt. of the people.

If the the United States Government was honest then there would be no problem ......

This is my main reason for being on the "gun nut" side. I have very few guns and even less ammunition. I enjoy shooting and my wife does too. We do not need guns and, provided there are no drastic changes, could live without them and be perfectly safe.

The government is out of control and DOES NOT have our best interest in mind. If you can't see that, you are blind. It is illegal to murder and for a violent criminal to own a gun. That is as much say as we should allow the government to have about this issue. The amount of murders we have is a problem with US! It is not because we have too much freedom or don't have enough laws.

Until something changes with our government, I will always be on whatever side limits the government the most.

I have no sources for this OPINION so go ahead and call me an idiot "gun nut".

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 22, 2013 - 07:38am PT
"and lots of places worse than here."

Credit: apogee
jghedge

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 08:57am PT
"I have no sources for this OPINION so go ahead and call me an idiot "gun nut"."

If you have no sources, what are you basing your opinion on?

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 22, 2013 - 09:30am PT
Why is it so hard to understand facts?

1) Violent crime is correlated with population density.
2) Violent crime committed with guns is more likely to result in murder.
3) Most criminals get their guns through straw sales.
4) Stricter federal gun regulations will reduce the number of guns available to criminals through straw sales.

Pretty fuking simple.

Nobody has answered my questions yet... how many guns do you buy every year? Who needs to purchase a new gun every month? Why not cut the limit to one gun purchase a year and cut the potential for straw sales by 1/12? Who here would that affect?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 22, 2013 - 09:34am PT
jghedge writes:

"If you have no sources, what are you basing your opinion on?"




That's funny, and you probably can't even see it!

It appears Saghi's done his own thinking, and come to his own conclusions on this one. By constantly citing someone else's opinions ("sources"), jghedge comes across like he's letting others do his thinking for him.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Mar 22, 2013 - 09:37am PT
Funny, when gun murder rates don't support your view, they become opinions.

Getting facts from other sources is not letting others think for you.

So just cite yourself as your source, so you can claim to be an "independent thinker".
jghedge

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 09:53am PT
"By constantly citing someone else's opinions ("sources"), jghedge comes across like he's letting others do his thinking for him."


Please show me an opinion I've cited as a source of fact.

Or is that just your opinion?

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:10am PT
http://www.youtube.com/embed/9RABZq5IoaQ?feature=player_embedded



Wanna throw the racist card again? Ill bet none of you knew the NRA was helping fight racism..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:19am PT
Okay, okay mono... :)

1) "Therefore, the Jacobs hypothesis, which was developed in distinctly dense urban areas of the Northeastern U.S., is supported in very diverse settings. Importantly, this environmental characteristic population density predicted more of the variance in violent crime than the majority of the other population characteristics in the model."

Christans and Speer, 2005. Behavior and Social Issues, 14, 113-127

see also: Jacobs, J. (1961). The life and death of great American cities. New York: Random House.

2) http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf#page=27

3) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

4) Webster and Vernick, 2013. Reducing gun violence in America. The Johns Hopkins University Press.
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:25am PT
It's not a matter of what anyone needs. The question of need is irrelevant. We are free to buy whatever, whenever as long as it's legal. The only burden when buying a gun is that said guns won't be used illegally or transferred to someone who couldn't legally purchase. It's wrong to assume that most lawful citizens are straw sales people. Once someone has passed all the checks and done all the paperwork, they are free to purchase. We can't assume they are up to no good. Especially since 99% of legal owners don't use their gun for murder, coupled with the fact that about 75% of gun murders are criminals killing other criminals, as well as the fact that there are far more murders without a gun

Forming an opinion or hypothesis isn't such a bad thing. It's part of the scientific method. Fact is that one day there were no airplanes that could fly, and the next day there were. What if they said, oh, we have no facts that a plane could fly and stopped thinking and working on it.

Medieval Ireland is proud that they have no murder by sword, while England sword murders are high. They just squash heads with stones in ireland, because there are no swords.

murder is the same awful thing no matter how it's carried out. Some take more offense when a gun is used, but the end result is the same.

scott



jghedge

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:28am PT
"We are free to buy whatever, whenever as long as it's legal. The only burden when buying a gun is that said guns won't be used illegally ..."

And how is that supposed to be determined when the gun is bought? With a crystal ball?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Yes Scott,, its called INNOCENT until proven guilty.. A rather nice form of law.. Only severly handicapped types think otherwise.
jghedge

climber
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:34am PT
"The homocide rat4es HAVE BEEN coming down for quite some time now. MANY seem to forget this."

"And im sure the homicide rates have gone up since 2004"


Looking forward to more examples of your brilliant debating skills, Rong, like those 2 posts above, posted 10 minutes apart


Do you even realize those 2 statements completely contradict each other (probably not)





Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Mar 22, 2013 - 10:40am PT
You wonder if anybody has changed their mind over the course of this discussion. Wait. No you don't.
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