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Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 19, 2013 - 09:57am PT
I'd like to see all mental health records made public, just as arrest/criminal records are.

That way a guy, like this last idiot ( and the one before him, and the one before that ) would earn himself a Red Flag whenever he tried to purchase a gun - just as felons do today - and would flunk a background check.

And as an employer, I'd sure like to know if the guy applying for the job has a history of sh#t like "hearing voices" just as much as I'd like to know if he has any criminal convictions.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 19, 2013 - 10:13am PT
The USA has an abysmal record in regards to mental illness. It's a disease but those suffering from it get little help and are ostracized by society. Our prisons would be less full and homelessness less apparent if we as a society put some real resources into the treatment of mental illness. Sure it would require real money, but the net result would likely be a fiscal bargin with real savings in many areas.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Sep 19, 2013 - 10:19am PT
It's not a simplistic 'duh' moment. It's a continuous assault from both sides. The louder you scream and call eachother idiots, the less likely you are to make reasonable compromise.
It's like the rest of politics in this country. Everyone's so f*#king bent on sticking to the party line it's a f*#king miracle anything ever gets done.
And it wouldn't matter anymore what scientific conclusion research might lead us to regarding gun ownership, becausewhat really matters is your emotional response to the issue, specifically fear. Make people afraid, and by God we'll pass a new law to restrict it. And never because of what the majority are doing, it's always some irresponible minority that causes it.
We're afraid to punish those few irresponsible individuals. Instead, we pass some new blanket ban to make it easy. A hanful of people can't be responsible, so f*#k everyone, because it's just too hard to hold a few as#@&%es accountable.

That's what's going to happen. You f*#king chickens.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 19, 2013 - 10:19am PT
We have the resources on hand right now, Mr Donini, but they're being misdirected.

We already have mental hospitals. At least three huge ones in California that I know of; Patton, Atascadero, and Napa.

But they're full of criminals.

Criminals - diseased or not - belong in prisons. It shouldn't matter if they're schizophrenic or diabetic. If they can't behave, they need to be locked up in prison.

We should reserve the state mental institutions for those who need help, but have not done any crimes.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 19, 2013 - 10:45am PT
jonny, personally, I have no fear of guns... unless they are pointed at me. When I'm out climbing and I see/hear hunters, I simply talk to them or yell out so they are aware of my location, and keep climbing... aware and dressed in orange, but not fearful. I own several guns, some of my friends are collectors, most of my cousins hunt, and members of my family have 1 to 6 guns in their houses and several are CCW. I know plenty of climber back in UT who almost always bring their guns on camping/climbing trip.

My desire for legislation designed to ensure only RESPONSIBLE people with proper training can purchase guns does not stem from fear, it stems from common sense.

The majority of gun nuts who protest Starbucks RESPECTFUL REQUEST to not bring guns into their store use the "my right to protect myself" bullsh#t. How many times have you (or anyone you know) needed a gun when you went for a cup of coffee? If you took a random sampling of the public, I'd say the majority of gun nuts/CCWs are the ones most fearful of guns in public... despite the vast majority NEVER NEEDING ONE.

Once again... the propaganda machine has taken the bullshit fear mongering from the right and attributed it to the left. Textbook case of projection.


We're afraid to punish those few irresponsible individuals.

That is nonsense.

Instead, we pass some new blanket ban to make it easy. A hanful of people can't be responsible, so f*#k everyone, because it's just too hard to hold a few as#@&%es accountable.

So, why not try to ensure responsibility BEFORE selling them a weapon? What exactly is your problem with having a more thorough screening process? You know that little test you have to take to get your driver's license... why not AT LEAST something like that? Why not restrict gun purchases to 1 or 2 a year, rather than 1 or 2 a month? etc Where is the fear in that proposal?
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Sep 19, 2013 - 11:02am PT
mechrist, I recognize your position. I,m talking about and to the majority who are driven by that fear. In fact, i,d guess most people would say they are not motivated by fear, regardless of their viewpoint. aAnd I do mean those on both extreme sides, all driven more by emotion than fact.

How did Cali pass a 50cal ban? How often do those get used in crime? So did they really need that ban? Or would you be more likely to defend yourself from a mugger at Starbucks?

Maybe you're willing to compromise, and that's great. Either you're in the minority, or those like you are just too f*#king lazy to voice their opinion. So, we're left with the screaming extremities that finally affect changes, shitty ones, in public policy.

True, most people will never need a gun for self defense. Thank God, or whatever you believe in, for that.

No, I'm disappointed that todays society feels it is necessary and more effective to rcrew everyone rather than a few irresponsible as#@&%es. It's not just guns, it's a general trend. Same with many other issues.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 19, 2013 - 11:29am PT
How did Cali pass a 50cal ban? How often do those get used in crime?

I'm sure they are not used too often in crimes, but I can imagine any accidents with them would be pretty serious. Imagine if the shooters in Ten Sleep had been using a 50 cal rather than a .233. How many yahoos with 50 cal guns do we really want in the CA hills, blasting away in whatever direction they ASSUME is safe? How many would confirm/assure the safety of others some 2+ miles away? Who needs to shoot a 50 cal anyway?
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Sep 19, 2013 - 11:37am PT
So despite the lack of accidents/crimes occurring with a 50cal, those weapons usually being a. expensive to own and shoot and b. ostensibly safer than your average .22lr, the whole fear factor of what COULD happen drives you to believe that ban was a good thing? Or are you playing devil's advocate for the hell of it?

Sh#t, just ban the average .308 bolt action. They're statistically more dangerous. See what I mean about emotional vs logical response there?

And who's getting screwed? California, New York, Chicago. Everyone who flies (yeah, thats not gun related), everyone affected by crag access closures, cell phone bans while driving (you relize your children in the bck seat are a bigger distraction, right?), weekend miners who cant dredge in Cali because we dont know how the river is affected (the studies couldnt be conducted by selecting say, half the rivers to close then comparing? nah, we ban it all goddam it!), everyone whos rights are violated by NSA phone surveillance, etc. Shall I continue Norton?
we're ALL getting screwed to various degrees, in the name of public safety. Do you feel safer yet?

You know, the day is coming when your car will self-govern to the posted speed limit the technology is here. Why not use it? Nobody needs to speed. Think how many needless deaths that would prevent!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 19, 2013 - 11:54am PT
I never said it was a good thing, or a bad thing. I simply offered a perspective.

So who uses 50 cal and why? You can't really use the self-defense argument for a gun that can accurately hit a target from 2 miles away. Can't really hunt with them. So that leaves you with recreational target practice... which best be done as an organized event anyway.

Besides, they are not banned... just the sale of them is.

You know, the day is coming when your car will self-govern to the posted speed limit the technology is here. Why not use it? Nobody needs to speed. Think how many needless deaths that would prevent!

I can't wait!!!
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
That's splitting hairs and you know it. They're not banned if you already own one. And your argument about not hunting doesnt mean much. It would be legal, like hunting elk witjh a 223 in nevada would be legal. People just dont do it. Really, target shooting should be organized? You got some funny ideas. I think you just like stirring the sh#t, looking for cornflakes.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
Norton, I think people could have been effectively prosecuted for negligence and that the cell ban is just a revenue tool. I think SOME public safety laws, like the Patriot Act, strip us of our rights and should be repealed. I think there are better ways to handle gun control than banning some types of guns while allowing others. Jesus, some of our most notorious shootings have been commited with plain old traditional style bolt guns.

Background checks? Sure.
Mental health reporting? Sure.
Ban a type of gun thats way down at the bottom of the list of guns that kill domestically because you're afraid of what COULD happen? wtf?

Child seatbelts? Find. Adult seatbelts? Give Darwins theory a chance.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
You are right, sorry. Everyone should be able to go out an buy a gun capable of accurately hitting a target from 2 miles away, for whatever reason... it is out God given right and clearly the intention of the 2nd amendment. No killing machines should be banned at all, for any reason.

peas

Sh#t, just ban the average .308 bolt action. They're statistically more dangerous. See what I mean about emotional vs logical response there?

Ain't those used for hunting quite a bit? Why would you want to ban a gun that is used by so many for a legitimate purpose?

Tell me again... what do people USE .50 for?


Gas explosions kill more people than napalm... yet napalm is banned. Go figure... it is a crazy world out there.
WBraun

climber
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
No killing machines should be banned at all, for any reason.

You stupid monkey!

Just about everything made these days is killing everyone.

Ya stupid hypocritical monkey from the pond scum ...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
I love you WB.

In a (mostly) heterosexual way.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
You are right, sorry. Everyone should be able to go out an buy a gun capable of accurately hitting a target from 2 miles away, for whatever reason... it is out God given right and clearly the intention of the 2nd amendment. No killing machines should be banned at all, for any reason. peas Sh#t, just ban the average .308 bolt action. They're statistically more dangerous. See what I mean about emotional vs logical response there? Ain't those used for hunting quite a bit? Why would you want to ban a gun that is used by so many for a legitimate purpose? Tell me again... what do people USE .50 for?

Yeah, my phone doesnt cut n paste well.

Now yer just being an ass. Why?
There are other calibers that are as accurate as the 50. They dont hit quite as hard at that distance, and frankly most people arent that accurate anyway. Point is, theyre not being used to shoot each other down at the 7-11. So you want to ban dangerous weapons that get a lot of use in crime. Ok. And here you are playing champion for this ban on a gun thats primarily used for long range organized shooting matches by responsible owners with practically no history of criminal use. Hmm...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
Point is, theyre not being used to shoot each other down at the 7-11. So you want to ban dangerous weapons that get a lot of use in crime. Ok. And here you are playing champion for this ban on a gun thats primarily used for long range organized shooting matches by responsible owners with practically no history of criminal use.

I'm not being an ass... just a little sarcastic.

But I don't think you understand the point I am trying to make.

The guns used in crime (hand guns) are generally the same guns used for self-defense. The .308 you mention being associated with many accidents are the same guns used by many for hunting. Attempts to ban useful guns used for legitimate reasons are silly... especially in the US west.

Tell me again, what do people USE 50 cal for? Not to defend their homes. Not to carry as personal defense. What legitimate reason does the average citizen have for owning and operating a gun capable of accurately hitting a target from 2 miles away? What purpose, other than personal entertainment, do they serve?

And here you are playing champion for this ban on a gun thats primarily used for long range organized shooting matches by responsible owners with practically no history of criminal use.

hahaha... I'm not championing anything. I didn't even know about the ban until you brought it up. I don't really give a fuk. But I don't see ANY LEGITIMATE REASON to allow people to go out and buy such a weapon, so I am certainly not opposed to the ban.

FWIW, if it weren't for my nephew's soccer game, I was going to go shoot a 50 cal with my sister in Salt Lake just 2 weeks ago. She said most of the people she works with (cops) require an assistant to stabilize their shoulder the first few times they shoot it. And you are arguing that restricting access to those weapons is a bad idea?
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Im saying the law was passed because law enforcement wasnt charging people with negligent driving. Can you tell me why not? How long until eating while driving gets banned? Thats distracting.
Do you drive? Do you think the law is really effective? I see people every day talking and texting and weaving down the road. See a cop? Hide the phone. Its a f*#king joke. Certainly the deaths attributable to it are not. They are tragic.

But thinking a ban is going to fix things? Thats a partial bandaid that doesnt quite satisfy. Make it harder to get a license! Take the goddam license away for such serious violations, like with DUI. But take every f*#king vehicle they own too so they dont go driving without a license!

Thats the logic, that outright bans and low cost monetary fines are crap. Ill concieved, poorly administered, and a pain in the ass for everyone.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 19, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
Make it harder to get a GUN license (and actually require a GUN license)! Take the goddam GUN license away for such serious violations, like with DUI. But take every f*#king GUN they own too so they dont go SHOOTING without a license!

Sounds reasonable to me.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Sep 19, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
Sarcasm, ok. Not an ass. Really though, target shooting is legitimate. Especially an organized event. Isnt that what you proposed earlier? Are we to limit firearms to what gets use for hunting or defense, regardless of track record?

Gun license? Ah, what the hell. Only then, like cars, you can buy whatever ya want. That seems reasonable too.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Sep 19, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
Yes, some laws are necessary to avoid anarchy. But to what extent? You wont try and argue with me that all laws are good and necessary right?

Im trying to argue that laws should be intelligent and effective, vs punitive to an entire society. They should punish the individual, not the public.

From what I can see it appears we're tipping the scale in the wrong direction on many fronts, in the name of public safety. But what kind of country is that? Not very free.
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