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TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
At least we can celebrate the end of winter!

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
Scott's post isn't being ignored... but we've been over many of the issues already.

First off, your map is misleading, as it includes all murders. Try this... it puts the US at number 11. We aren't in the best of company there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Criminals don't go to the local gun shop to buy their weapons. Criminals buy their guns from underground markets where there is no background check.

Where do those guns come from in the first place? Come on people! See the need for tracking gun purchases yet?

Criminals buy any kind of gun they want, including grenades, explosives.

You can't go down to the local gun store and buy grenades or explosives... they are not available through legal channels like guns are... which is why they are not used as often in crimes as guns are. Get it?

Anyone here think that the Chinese citizens would have wanted some firearms to protect themselves from the government back when they went communist? between 40 and 60 million slaughtered and starved by their gov.

Anyone here think armed citizens would even slow down the US military if the US "went communist?"

Criminals find the weaker, the unprotected.

How about self defense uses with guns... a minimum or 600,000 times a year, a criminal act is thwarted by a lawful gun toting citizen.

Please reconcile those two statements.

Since Sandy hook, the number of gun applications at Newtown, CT is 1.5 times the normal rate. Gun permit apps are up everywhere. Go in gun shops and I think one will find a representation from every legal age group, and many demographics.

Irrational fear based purchases don't prove anything other than sheeple are idiots. Remember the duct tape and plastic run?

Anyone care to follow Joe Biden's advise on self defense?

Joe Biden is an idiot.

Punishing lawful citizens and using them as the butt of jokes will accomplish little more than anti gunners patting each other on the back, IMO.

Nobody is punishing lawful citizens. Stricter regulations will be no more than a minor inconvenience. Painting stricter gun regulations as "punishing lawful citizens" will accomplish much less than pointing out irrational claims based on shitty statistics.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
I don't get it

I am a "lawful" citizen

I own five guns and I am a Concealed Carry Holder


How exactly am I being "hurt" or "compromised" by any seriously likely to pass federal legislation?

how would expanded background checks effect me, can't see how

how would much tougher penalties for straw buyers effect me, can't see how
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
They realize guns will eventually be outlawed in the US. 12,000 gun murders a year is a social/civil rights issue - and liberals always win those. Always.

No Joe, actually NO ONE but apparently YOU believe guns will be outlawed in the USA.

And you are both naive and full of hubris for even seriously thinking it true.

And here is where you are wrong:

1) "guns" are NOT a god damn social or civil issue, legal gun ownership is held sacred in our fuking Constitution, human beings in this country feel a hard wired need to own guns to protect themselves

THAT is a very different "social" issue than say abortion or gay marriage

2) you are also flat wrong in presuming to be factually true that all guns will be outlawed by federal legislation, that statement is predictive without basis, in fact zero support or basis

I have said this before, you only serve to lessen your own credibility when you define things in terms of words like "liberals always win", you win no one over to your position by doing so, and in fact you purposely seek to draw lines that largely just piss people off, hardly helpful to advancing your case but I suppose you do it because it makes you feel morally superior, a childish reason
saghi

Trad climber
Muskogee, OK
Mar 21, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
First off, your map is misleading, as it includes all murders.

Thought that's what the issue was. Too many murders...

Where do those guns come from in the first place? Come on people! See the need for tracking gun purchases yet?

No. I see the need for tracking automatic weapons, large explosives, and other equally devastating devices, not semi-automatic small caliber rifles.

You can't go down to the local gun store and buy grenades or explosives... they are not available through legal channels like guns are... which is why they are not used as often in crimes as guns are. Get it?

I don't think the amount of guns or ease of owning a gun is the issue. I think the issue is the amount of people in our society willing and ready to kill. If we lived in a society where nobody thought murdering another human being was a legitimate option the amount of guns we have wouldn’t be an issue.

Anyone here think armed citizens would even slow down the US military if the US "went communist?"

Not by any significant amount. The government has already grown too large. We wouldn't have much of a chance. Still, here you are trying to make the split between us and the government even larger. Do you pay attention to politics? How do you trust any of them?

Irrational fear based purchases don't prove anything other than sheeple are idiots. Remember the duct tape and plastic run?

Yes, sheeple are idiots. We should think for ourselves and encourage others to think for themselves. I agree we have many issues in this country. I do not agree that the government is the answer to them. The people buying guns aren’t sheeple. The sheeple are the ones that demand the government fix our problems. The government wants more power and you (sheeple) are trying to give it to them.

Joe Biden is an idiot.

Agreed! How much better are the other politicians you trust so much?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
It is foolish to assume there is any correlation between the '94 Crime Bill and any statistics regarding gun crime.

For one thing the bill was only called an "assault weapon ban". There were still plenty of battle rifles and hi-cap mags grandfathered and legal.
What it did was cap importation or production.

My investment appreciated then almost as much as in the past 3 months.

The increase in certain crimes could easily be attributable to other factors.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Oh, and a couple days ago I was able to purchase a Colt M4A1 SOCCOM at,........ Walmart!

I could flip it for a grand profit, but it is a real nice battle rifle,..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
I'm done.

What a bunch of fuking morons.

Fuk this place and all the straw man bullshit ya'll like to wallow in.


Norton is the only person with a clue here.
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Mar 21, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
Mechrist, the map wasn't misleading. I stated that I was comparing murder rate around the world as a whole, which guns are a part of, to show that the US is on the lower end of the scale. I thought it was relevant to a conversation about murder

Yes it is possible to buy grenades and explosives, through underground markets. they aren't used in as many crimes because ammo for a 9mm is cheap and readily available and a pistol is easy to conceal and use. Just the same reason rifles aren't used in many crimes and only kill 350 or so a year.

***
"Criminals find the weaker, the unprotected.

How about self defense uses with guns... a minimum or 600,000 times a year, a criminal act is thwarted by a lawful gun toting citizen.

Please reconcile those two statements."

**
ok, easy... criminals don't easily have access to a database of gun owners. Not all criminals are smart enough and have the ability to pick and choose the weak and unprotected.


"Anyone here think that the Chinese citizens would have wanted some firearms to protect themselves from the government back when they went communist? between 40 and 60 million slaughtered and starved by their gov.

Anyone here think armed citizens would even slow down the US military if the US "went communist?"

*
I'm not talking about the US in that one. The fact remains, China slaughtered it's own defenseless population. Russia did the same thing. I'd rather have the right to arms, no matter my chances. I'm sure the British didn't think the colonies stood a chance.


Mechrist, people exercising their rights are idiots? who taught you that idea? good job with the name calling though.

Gov. Cuomo just banned any mags larger than 7 rounds is their way of punishing lawful citizens, cause when the average citizen gets caught with 8 round magazine they are now felons. Cuomo is already fixing that legislation, which criminals, the ones that commit 75% of gun murder, will pay no attention to.
Missouri is trying to ban any semiautomatic with a pistol grip. THe gov will try to seize any semi with a pistol grip, no grandfathering no transfer. Is that not a punishment? Turning lawful citizens to criminals? Probably won't pass, but they sure are trying

Mechrist, i noticed you didn't say anything about the 1.2 Billion served by abortion.


scott
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 21, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#284870
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
12,000 gun murders a year

A suicide is a murder? Oh. So I guess when a black person shoots themselves it counts as black on black crime.


lol
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Mar 21, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
no jghedge, no need for people to buy choppers, and I didn't say they should be allowed to. I think up to and including full auto firearms, which lots already do legally own.

scott
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
Asscott,

Mechrist, i noticed you didn't say anything about the 1.2 Billion served by abortion.

what in the world does "abortions" have to do with this gun debate thread?

why would you ask Mechrist why he did not comment about abortions?

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
I thought it was relevant to a conversation about murder.

This is a "conversation" about guns.

Yes it is possible to buy grenades and explosives, through underground markets. they aren't used in as many crimes because ammo for a 9mm is cheap and readily available

Handguns are also readily available. Why? Because anyone with a clean record can legally buy a gun a month, every month... then turn around and sell it for $500 and a bag of meth.

Mechrist, people exercising their rights are idiots? who taught you that idea? good job with the name calling though.

No, people who act like idiots and say idiotic things are idiots.

Gov. Cuomo just banned any mags larger than 7 rounds is their way of punishing lawful citizens, cause when the average citizen gets caught with 8 round magazine they are now felons.

Obviously, an average citizen with an 8 round mag is no longer an average citizen, they are a criminal. In 1913 someone with a vile of cocaine could be considered an average citizen... in 1914 they would be a criminal. In 1972 if a woman got an abortion she was a criminal... in 1973 she could be an average citizen. That's how laws work. Pretty simple.

criminals, the ones that commit 75% of gun murder, will pay no attention to.

Because they will just buy what is available through straw sales. I'll bet money the number of 8 round mags used in crimes will drop once the current supply from straw sales dwindles.

Is that not a punishment? Turning lawful citizens to criminals? Probably won't pass, but they sure are trying

No, it isn't turning lawful citizens into criminals. It is turning those who choose not to live by the law into criminals. Big difference. And it certainly isn't punishment if it doesn't even pass.

Mechrist, i noticed you didn't say anything about the 1.2 Billion served by abortion.

In a discussion about guns... yeah, no sh#t...
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Mar 21, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
hey norton, thanks for the name calling. I don't think that's how my name is spelled


scott
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2013 - 08:43pm PT





























(didn't mechrist say he was out of here?)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
Oopps

It was NOT intentional

Just quick dumb typing

My apologies
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Mar 21, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
no worries norton

I understand it's off topic, and this is the last I'll say about the abortion thing... I'm just trying to wrap my head around how its totally fine to end well more than 1 million lives each year in the US through abortion, while 30,000 die by guns and that's the worst thing ever. I understand that it's legal, and i fully support that. that's the answer then i guess.

I haven't read all of the posts here, and when I picked it up, the conversation was tilted toward murder

scott
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
I'm just trying to wrap my head around how its totally fine to end well more than 1 million lives each year in the US through abortion, while 30,000 die by guns and that's the worst thing ever. I understand that it's legal, and i fully support that. that's the answer then i guess.


ah, now I understand

you are saying WHY is the outrage over ABORTION not the SAME outrage as mass gun murders, right?

yes, abortion has long ago been decided as legal and constitutional, as is the 2nd Amendment

and this clearly bothers you, because if I read you right, abortion to you is "murder", just as the murders caused by guns

you have every right to feel that way, and your view on this is increasingly in the minority

this country has evolved on this issue and no longer defines "murder" as ending an unwanted zygote

Scott, I guess you won't be getting much sympathy for your position on this thread, I am sure there are lots and lots of religious web sites that agree with your abortion position to visit
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Mar 21, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
Fascinating thread... guns and abortion! In the meantime look what I came up with.
Happiness
Happiness
Credit: paul roehl
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