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saghi

Trad climber
Muskogee, OK
Mar 21, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Any ideas for getting our gun murder rate down to the level of countries that have outlawed guns?

Anyone?

Yes. Teach our children the value of human life. Teach them morals by example. Stop teaching them to rely on the government to solve their problems. Stop leading them to believe the government knows whatís best for them. Teach them that each individual is responsible for his/her own actions. Teach your children to lead a nation that can responsibly enjoy MORE freedoms than we already have! If you donít have children, nearly every city in the USA has orphans that you should be teaching these lessons to.

It is very easy to tell by your arguments and train of thought that your goal is to restrict gun ownership NOT reduce gun crime. If your goal really was to reduce gun crime you should have reached more than one possible solution in 3000 something posts.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 11:59am PT
Yes. Teach our children the value of human life. Teach them morals by example. Stop teaching them to rely on the government to solve their problems. Stop leading them to believe the government knows whatís best for them.

sounds like a good plan!

but tell me if you would, just who are these people who are teaching their children specifically "rely on government"?

who exactly, please give just a few examples, of who these people are that believe that government knows "what is best for them"?

maybe show credible sources identifying these millions of parents who are deliberately teaching their children these things?

seriously, I was not aware of this vast organized effort, must be home schooling cause no school curriculum is teaching kids that

thanks for providing your sources because I am sure none of this is just your own personal opinion
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 21, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
I am no more interested in taking away your guns than I am in living in a nanny state. Where do you get off making such absurd claims. Sounds like you are parroting the straw man arguments of AM radio and Fox spews.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#295114
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Mar 21, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
Yeah, well I guess drama has it's place.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 21, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
So does the truth.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 21, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2013/03/sandy-hook-three-months-later-new.html
saghi

Trad climber
Muskogee, OK
Mar 21, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
but tell me if you would, just who are these people who are teaching their children specifically "rely on government"?

who exactly, please give just a few examples, of who these people are that believe that government knows "what is best for them"?

maybe show credible sources identifying these millions of parents who are deliberately teaching their children these things?

seriously, I was not aware of this vast organized effort, must be home schooling cause no school curriculum is teaching kids that

thanks for providing your sources because I am sure none of this is just your own personal opinion


Calm down a bit. Did my opinion offend you? I should have asked the government if that was the best thing for me to do first, sorry.

jghedge asked if anyone had any ideas about how to get our gun murder rate down. Since nobody else answered, I thought I would. I was asked to give my opinion......

Since it wasn't as obvious as I thought it was:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/18/who-receives-benefits-from-the-federal-government-in-six-charts/
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
The homocide rat4es HAVE BEEN coming down for quite some time now. MANY seem to forget this.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
The homocide rat4es HAVE BEEN coming down for quite some time now. MANY seem to forget this.

Ron is right... they started coming down in 1994. MANY seem to forget what happened in 1994.

Oh, that's right... the last big federal gun regulations. Read all about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_Enforcement_Act

https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/billfs.txt

Firearms Licensing
Strengthens Federal licensing standards for firearms dealers.

Gang Crimes
Provides new and stiffer penalties for violent and drug trafficking crimes
committed by gang members.

Other
Creates new crimes or enhances penalties for: drive-by-shootings, use of
semi-automatic weapons, sex offenses, crimes against the
elderly, interstate firearms trafficking, firearms theft and smuggling,
arson, hate crimes and interstate domestic violence.

etc







Tell us again how federal gun regulations don't work... yet result in a significant drop in homicide rates. Seriously... I don't like being a dick... but when people are so blatantly opposed to accepting reality, it makes it hard.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Wes, the 94 ban was primarily assualt weapons. The mag ban lasted only a year or so. Which is not even the notable weapon used on the chart.




And im sure the homicide rates have gone up since 2004- as the economy put many desperate people on the streets since then. ONLY natural that homicides/robberies go up during these times. It WILL get worse ahead. Thats why they have mass grave sites with fema coffins piled up in the waiting.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
Ron, read the gawdamn links before displaying your ignorance. I've even cut out applicable parts to make it easier for you. The assault weapons ban was a minor, but HIGHLY PUBLICIZED portion... meant to dazzle and distract the mindless no doubt.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
and??

it was called the Brady Bill..And Yes some of that legislation was a help in reducing homicede rates im sure.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
and, FEDERAL GUN LEGISLATION WORKS.

Only a complete idiot would claim they don't work and then point out that gun homicides "have been coming down for quite some time"... when the data CLEARLY shows that "quite some time" means since 1993-94 when the legislation was passed.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Ron, can you provide your source where you got the information that the 1994 ASSAULT weapons ban allowed magazine limitations to expire in "a year or two"?

Especially knowing as you do that it was a ten year legislation.


]The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB), or Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, was a subtitle of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a federal law in the United States that included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms, so called "assault weapons".[1] The 10-year ban was passed by Congress on September 13, 1994, and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton the same day. The ban only applied to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment.

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired on September 13, 2004, as part of the law's sunset provision

The Act also defined and banned 'large capacity ammunition feeding devices', which generally applied to magazines or other ammunition feeding devices with capacities of greater than a certain number of rounds, and that up to the time of the Act were considered normal or factory magazines. Media and popular culture referred to these as 'high capacity magazines or feeding devices'. Depending on the locality and type of firearm, the cutoff between a 'normal' capacity and 'high' capacity magazine was 3, 7, 10, 12, 15, or 20 rounds. The now defunct federal ban set the limit at 10 rounds.

During the period when the AWB was in effect, it was illegal to manufacture any firearm that met the law's flowchart of an assault weapon or large capacity ammunition feeding device, except for export or for sale to a government or law enforcement agency. The law also banned possession of illegally imported or manufactured firearms, but did not ban possession or sale of pre-existing 'assault weapons' or previously factory standard magazines that were legally redefined as large capacity ammunition feeding devices. This provision for pre-ban firearms created higher prices in the market for such items, which still exist due to several states adopting their own assault weapons bans.
[/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban]
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
you correct Norton,, it DID last ten years--my bad,, 10 years doesnt seem that long ago anymore.


and Wes,, and some of the reason the homicide rates are coming down is STATE laws ,,CCW holders and that sort of legisaltion as well.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
You ASSume.

No link between right-to-carry laws and changes in crime is apparent in the raw data, even in the initial sample; it is only once numerous covariates are included that the negative results in the early data emerge. While the trend models show a reduction in the crime growth rate following the adoption of right-to-carry laws, these trend reductions occur long after law adoption, casting serious doubt on the proposition that the trend models estimated in the literature reflect effects of the law change. Finally, some of the point estimates are imprecise. Thus, the committee concludes that with the current evidence it is not possible to determine that there is a causal link between the passage of right-to-carry laws and crime rates.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/do-concealed-weapon-laws-result-in-less-crime/2012/12/16/e80a5d7e-47c9-11e2-ad54-580638ede391_blog.html


FWIW, give me enough covariates and I can "show" that hemorrhoid outbreaks reduce crime rates. Funny how you will dismiss solid statistics from environmental scientists, but glom onto VERY SHAKY statistics that support what you already agree with despite reality.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
funny how you post up one article and assume the world is according to that. Extensive research indeed.
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
I don't own any guns, but grew up in NJ with family who owns guns of all legal types for target shooting at a range as well as on lots of empty property in CT where it's legal to shoot, no neighbors. Grew up with knowledge and respect for human life as well as for guns... how to care for them and reload ammo. I never hunted, and don't imagine I will.

Murder with a gun is within the conversation of murder. here is a map showing numbers of murder by country. The US is on the LOWER end of the scale at about 5 murders per 100,000. Mexico is more than double that. Some countries are nearly 10 times the US numbers. China is really low on that list, but how do we factor in the 60 million or so the chinese government murdered leading up to Communist china.

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Philo, that number of more than 1 million gun deaths since john lennon... are you trying to say that all those deaths are homicide? If so, that's inaccurate. The majority are suicide. then murder, then accident, then lawful shootings... cops etc self defense. so the number or murder since JL is about 300,000 or so? still horrible. still needs to be lower.

The US averages 10k to 11k gun murders each year.
The US averages 15,000 additional murders each year, no gun involved... knives, rocks, bats, hammers, fists, etc.

75% of gun murders are by gangs and lifetime criminals.

That's still murder, and still horrible, but it's not gun nuts running around killing other lawful citizens. That leaves less than about 3,000 murders each year at the hand of what once was a lawful citizen. That's still too much and can be improved. more than 99% of gun owners don't use their guns to commit murder. That's pretty good.

if 99% of drivers knew how and actually did drive safely, how would that affect the number of auto related deaths each year? ok apples/oranges, but all within the conversation of preventable/unnecessary deaths.


Will someone please tell me which laws criminals, would be criminals, and just generally insane people follow? Which laws actually control criminals and prevent criminals from criminal acts?

Criminals do not follow laws, that's why they are criminals.

Criminals don't go to the local gun shop to buy their weapons. Criminals buy their guns from underground markets where there is no background check. Criminals buy any kind of gun they want, including grenades, explosives. Anything that can fit in a car or truck anyway.

Will a criminal rob a house that has gun owners? or will a criminal go to the house that is unprotected. There is no way, a criminal wants to enter a gunfight on someone else's home turf. Criminals find the weaker, the unprotected.

Anyone here think that the Chinese citizens would have wanted some firearms to protect themselves from the government back when they went communist? between 40 and 60 million slaughtered and starved by their gov.

How about self defense uses with guns... a minimum or 600,000 times a year, a criminal act is thwarted by a lawful gun toting citizen.

I am 100% pro choice. Abortion is and should be legal... IMO. 56 MILLION USA abortions since 1973. Each year, more than 1 million abortions or about 30 times the john lennon number. Worldwide, the number is 1.2 Billion since 1980


Since Sandy hook, the number of gun applications at Newtown, CT is 1.5 times the normal rate. Gun permit apps are up everywhere. Go in gun shops and I think one will find a representation from every legal age group, and many demographics.

as far a need for guns, that is irrelevant. the only burden is to show that lawful citizens will use their guns in lawful acts. To say someone doesn't need a certain type of weapon is irrelevant.

Anyone care to follow Joe Biden's advise on self defense? Joe Biden suggested shooting a shotgun outside your home's window to scare away an intruder. That method is in fact illegal, and most likely a felony in most areas.

Punish the violent criminals. Severely punish the criminals caught with illegal guns.

We aren't as violent as led to believe, though there is room to improve. There is room to improve laws here and there. Punishing lawful citizens and using them as the butt of jokes will accomplish little more than anti gunners patting each other on the back, IMO.


scott
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Funny how you post up no articles with claims and conclusion you pull out of your ass, and then attempt to disparage an article (which cites several sources) from a notable newspaper.
saghi

Trad climber
Muskogee, OK
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Thanks, Scott. You're post will now be ignored. Seems everyone here is too busy argueing to think.
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