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Messages 3401 - 3420 of total 5824 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
The homocide rat4es HAVE BEEN coming down for quite some time now. MANY seem to forget this.

Ron is right... they started coming down in 1994. MANY seem to forget what happened in 1994.

Oh, that's right... the last big federal gun regulations. Read all about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_Enforcement_Act

https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/billfs.txt

Firearms Licensing
Strengthens Federal licensing standards for firearms dealers.

Gang Crimes
Provides new and stiffer penalties for violent and drug trafficking crimes
committed by gang members.

Other
Creates new crimes or enhances penalties for: drive-by-shootings, use of
semi-automatic weapons, sex offenses, crimes against the
elderly, interstate firearms trafficking, firearms theft and smuggling,
arson, hate crimes and interstate domestic violence.

etc







Tell us again how federal gun regulations don't work... yet result in a significant drop in homicide rates. Seriously... I don't like being a dick... but when people are so blatantly opposed to accepting reality, it makes it hard.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Wes, the 94 ban was primarily assualt weapons. The mag ban lasted only a year or so. Which is not even the notable weapon used on the chart.




And im sure the homicide rates have gone up since 2004- as the economy put many desperate people on the streets since then. ONLY natural that homicides/robberies go up during these times. It WILL get worse ahead. Thats why they have mass grave sites with fema coffins piled up in the waiting.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
Ron, read the gawdamn links before displaying your ignorance. I've even cut out applicable parts to make it easier for you. The assault weapons ban was a minor, but HIGHLY PUBLICIZED portion... meant to dazzle and distract the mindless no doubt.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
and??

it was called the Brady Bill..And Yes some of that legislation was a help in reducing homicede rates im sure.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
and, FEDERAL GUN LEGISLATION WORKS.

Only a complete idiot would claim they don't work and then point out that gun homicides "have been coming down for quite some time"... when the data CLEARLY shows that "quite some time" means since 1993-94 when the legislation was passed.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Ron, can you provide your source where you got the information that the 1994 ASSAULT weapons ban allowed magazine limitations to expire in "a year or two"?

Especially knowing as you do that it was a ten year legislation.


]The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB), or Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, was a subtitle of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a federal law in the United States that included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms, so called "assault weapons".[1] The 10-year ban was passed by Congress on September 13, 1994, and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton the same day. The ban only applied to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment.

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired on September 13, 2004, as part of the law's sunset provision

The Act also defined and banned 'large capacity ammunition feeding devices', which generally applied to magazines or other ammunition feeding devices with capacities of greater than a certain number of rounds, and that up to the time of the Act were considered normal or factory magazines. Media and popular culture referred to these as 'high capacity magazines or feeding devices'. Depending on the locality and type of firearm, the cutoff between a 'normal' capacity and 'high' capacity magazine was 3, 7, 10, 12, 15, or 20 rounds. The now defunct federal ban set the limit at 10 rounds.

During the period when the AWB was in effect, it was illegal to manufacture any firearm that met the law's flowchart of an assault weapon or large capacity ammunition feeding device, except for export or for sale to a government or law enforcement agency. The law also banned possession of illegally imported or manufactured firearms, but did not ban possession or sale of pre-existing 'assault weapons' or previously factory standard magazines that were legally redefined as large capacity ammunition feeding devices. This provision for pre-ban firearms created higher prices in the market for such items, which still exist due to several states adopting their own assault weapons bans.
[/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban]
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
you correct Norton,, it DID last ten years--my bad,, 10 years doesnt seem that long ago anymore.


and Wes,, and some of the reason the homicide rates are coming down is STATE laws ,,CCW holders and that sort of legisaltion as well.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
You ASSume.

No link between right-to-carry laws and changes in crime is apparent in the raw data, even in the initial sample; it is only once numerous covariates are included that the negative results in the early data emerge. While the trend models show a reduction in the crime growth rate following the adoption of right-to-carry laws, these trend reductions occur long after law adoption, casting serious doubt on the proposition that the trend models estimated in the literature reflect effects of the law change. Finally, some of the point estimates are imprecise. Thus, the committee concludes that with the current evidence it is not possible to determine that there is a causal link between the passage of right-to-carry laws and crime rates.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/do-concealed-weapon-laws-result-in-less-crime/2012/12/16/e80a5d7e-47c9-11e2-ad54-580638ede391_blog.html


FWIW, give me enough covariates and I can "show" that hemorrhoid outbreaks reduce crime rates. Funny how you will dismiss solid statistics from environmental scientists, but glom onto VERY SHAKY statistics that support what you already agree with despite reality.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
funny how you post up one article and assume the world is according to that. Extensive research indeed.
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
I don't own any guns, but grew up in NJ with family who owns guns of all legal types for target shooting at a range as well as on lots of empty property in CT where it's legal to shoot, no neighbors. Grew up with knowledge and respect for human life as well as for guns... how to care for them and reload ammo. I never hunted, and don't imagine I will.

Murder with a gun is within the conversation of murder. here is a map showing numbers of murder by country. The US is on the LOWER end of the scale at about 5 murders per 100,000. Mexico is more than double that. Some countries are nearly 10 times the US numbers. China is really low on that list, but how do we factor in the 60 million or so the chinese government murdered leading up to Communist china.

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Philo, that number of more than 1 million gun deaths since john lennon... are you trying to say that all those deaths are homicide? If so, that's inaccurate. The majority are suicide. then murder, then accident, then lawful shootings... cops etc self defense. so the number or murder since JL is about 300,000 or so? still horrible. still needs to be lower.

The US averages 10k to 11k gun murders each year.
The US averages 15,000 additional murders each year, no gun involved... knives, rocks, bats, hammers, fists, etc.

75% of gun murders are by gangs and lifetime criminals.

That's still murder, and still horrible, but it's not gun nuts running around killing other lawful citizens. That leaves less than about 3,000 murders each year at the hand of what once was a lawful citizen. That's still too much and can be improved. more than 99% of gun owners don't use their guns to commit murder. That's pretty good.

if 99% of drivers knew how and actually did drive safely, how would that affect the number of auto related deaths each year? ok apples/oranges, but all within the conversation of preventable/unnecessary deaths.


Will someone please tell me which laws criminals, would be criminals, and just generally insane people follow? Which laws actually control criminals and prevent criminals from criminal acts?

Criminals do not follow laws, that's why they are criminals.

Criminals don't go to the local gun shop to buy their weapons. Criminals buy their guns from underground markets where there is no background check. Criminals buy any kind of gun they want, including grenades, explosives. Anything that can fit in a car or truck anyway.

Will a criminal rob a house that has gun owners? or will a criminal go to the house that is unprotected. There is no way, a criminal wants to enter a gunfight on someone else's home turf. Criminals find the weaker, the unprotected.

Anyone here think that the Chinese citizens would have wanted some firearms to protect themselves from the government back when they went communist? between 40 and 60 million slaughtered and starved by their gov.

How about self defense uses with guns... a minimum or 600,000 times a year, a criminal act is thwarted by a lawful gun toting citizen.

I am 100% pro choice. Abortion is and should be legal... IMO. 56 MILLION USA abortions since 1973. Each year, more than 1 million abortions or about 30 times the john lennon number. Worldwide, the number is 1.2 Billion since 1980


Since Sandy hook, the number of gun applications at Newtown, CT is 1.5 times the normal rate. Gun permit apps are up everywhere. Go in gun shops and I think one will find a representation from every legal age group, and many demographics.

as far a need for guns, that is irrelevant. the only burden is to show that lawful citizens will use their guns in lawful acts. To say someone doesn't need a certain type of weapon is irrelevant.

Anyone care to follow Joe Biden's advise on self defense? Joe Biden suggested shooting a shotgun outside your home's window to scare away an intruder. That method is in fact illegal, and most likely a felony in most areas.

Punish the violent criminals. Severely punish the criminals caught with illegal guns.

We aren't as violent as led to believe, though there is room to improve. There is room to improve laws here and there. Punishing lawful citizens and using them as the butt of jokes will accomplish little more than anti gunners patting each other on the back, IMO.


scott
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Funny how you post up no articles with claims and conclusion you pull out of your ass, and then attempt to disparage an article (which cites several sources) from a notable newspaper.
saghi

Trad climber
Muskogee, OK
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Thanks, Scott. You're post will now be ignored. Seems everyone here is too busy argueing to think.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
Scott was spot on actually. This has been said previously by many and in many different ways though.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 21, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
At least we can celebrate the end of winter!

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 21, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
Scott's post isn't being ignored... but we've been over many of the issues already.

First off, your map is misleading, as it includes all murders. Try this... it puts the US at number 11. We aren't in the best of company there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Criminals don't go to the local gun shop to buy their weapons. Criminals buy their guns from underground markets where there is no background check.

Where do those guns come from in the first place? Come on people! See the need for tracking gun purchases yet?

Criminals buy any kind of gun they want, including grenades, explosives.

You can't go down to the local gun store and buy grenades or explosives... they are not available through legal channels like guns are... which is why they are not used as often in crimes as guns are. Get it?

Anyone here think that the Chinese citizens would have wanted some firearms to protect themselves from the government back when they went communist? between 40 and 60 million slaughtered and starved by their gov.

Anyone here think armed citizens would even slow down the US military if the US "went communist?"

Criminals find the weaker, the unprotected.

How about self defense uses with guns... a minimum or 600,000 times a year, a criminal act is thwarted by a lawful gun toting citizen.

Please reconcile those two statements.

Since Sandy hook, the number of gun applications at Newtown, CT is 1.5 times the normal rate. Gun permit apps are up everywhere. Go in gun shops and I think one will find a representation from every legal age group, and many demographics.

Irrational fear based purchases don't prove anything other than sheeple are idiots. Remember the duct tape and plastic run?

Anyone care to follow Joe Biden's advise on self defense?

Joe Biden is an idiot.

Punishing lawful citizens and using them as the butt of jokes will accomplish little more than anti gunners patting each other on the back, IMO.

Nobody is punishing lawful citizens. Stricter regulations will be no more than a minor inconvenience. Painting stricter gun regulations as "punishing lawful citizens" will accomplish much less than pointing out irrational claims based on shitty statistics.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
I don't get it

I am a "lawful" citizen

I own five guns and I am a Concealed Carry Holder


How exactly am I being "hurt" or "compromised" by any seriously likely to pass federal legislation?

how would expanded background checks effect me, can't see how

how would much tougher penalties for straw buyers effect me, can't see how
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 21, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
They realize guns will eventually be outlawed in the US. 12,000 gun murders a year is a social/civil rights issue - and liberals always win those. Always.

No Joe, actually NO ONE but apparently YOU believe guns will be outlawed in the USA.

And you are both naive and full of hubris for even seriously thinking it true.

And here is where you are wrong:

1) "guns" are NOT a god damn social or civil issue, legal gun ownership is held sacred in our fuking Constitution, human beings in this country feel a hard wired need to own guns to protect themselves

THAT is a very different "social" issue than say abortion or gay marriage

2) you are also flat wrong in presuming to be factually true that all guns will be outlawed by federal legislation, that statement is predictive without basis, in fact zero support or basis

I have said this before, you only serve to lessen your own credibility when you define things in terms of words like "liberals always win", you win no one over to your position by doing so, and in fact you purposely seek to draw lines that largely just piss people off, hardly helpful to advancing your case but I suppose you do it because it makes you feel morally superior, a childish reason
saghi

Trad climber
Muskogee, OK
Mar 21, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
First off, your map is misleading, as it includes all murders.

Thought that's what the issue was. Too many murders...

Where do those guns come from in the first place? Come on people! See the need for tracking gun purchases yet?

No. I see the need for tracking automatic weapons, large explosives, and other equally devastating devices, not semi-automatic small caliber rifles.

You can't go down to the local gun store and buy grenades or explosives... they are not available through legal channels like guns are... which is why they are not used as often in crimes as guns are. Get it?

I don't think the amount of guns or ease of owning a gun is the issue. I think the issue is the amount of people in our society willing and ready to kill. If we lived in a society where nobody thought murdering another human being was a legitimate option the amount of guns we have wouldn’t be an issue.

Anyone here think armed citizens would even slow down the US military if the US "went communist?"

Not by any significant amount. The government has already grown too large. We wouldn't have much of a chance. Still, here you are trying to make the split between us and the government even larger. Do you pay attention to politics? How do you trust any of them?

Irrational fear based purchases don't prove anything other than sheeple are idiots. Remember the duct tape and plastic run?

Yes, sheeple are idiots. We should think for ourselves and encourage others to think for themselves. I agree we have many issues in this country. I do not agree that the government is the answer to them. The people buying guns aren’t sheeple. The sheeple are the ones that demand the government fix our problems. The government wants more power and you (sheeple) are trying to give it to them.

Joe Biden is an idiot.

Agreed! How much better are the other politicians you trust so much?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
It is foolish to assume there is any correlation between the '94 Crime Bill and any statistics regarding gun crime.

For one thing the bill was only called an "assault weapon ban". There were still plenty of battle rifles and hi-cap mags grandfathered and legal.
What it did was cap importation or production.

My investment appreciated then almost as much as in the past 3 months.

The increase in certain crimes could easily be attributable to other factors.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Oh, and a couple days ago I was able to purchase a Colt M4A1 SOCCOM at,........ Walmart!

I could flip it for a grand profit, but it is a real nice battle rifle,..
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