The Gun debate sandbox


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Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 28, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
The US supplies the entire world with illegal handguns.

I didn't know that the following companies (among others) had to first send their handguns to the US for them to be stolen (how else to make them "illegal") before then being shipped abroad;

Sigg Saur

(need I go on listing foreign makers of handguns?)

Just another ignorant person spouting hate and lies for what they don't understand or know.

edit for mono;
so it is not an inflammatory statement?

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:06am PT
They should all just follow Joe's advice!

Wonder what the judge is going to think of that argument?

Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:31am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#292061

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:40am PT
"if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here, walk out and put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house."

 Joe Biden

Wow. That's a FELONY here in California.

That is so totally asinine that it makes Bush's duct-tape-and-Saran-Wrap plan look like a real plan.

This dumbshit is the Vice President? He doesn't know the law any better than that? What a dumbshit!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:45am PT
That was rather amazingly stupid,, even for Joey.. Obviously he knows nothing of the laws of self defense nor does he realize that firing two shots outside in the dark leaves you with nothing more than a club. Joey "double barrel" Biden LMAO!!

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:49am PT
I'd like to know the name of just ONE self-defense expert who advises firing random shots, just for the hell of it, like Biden suggests.

I know there's not a lawyer in the country who would advise such foolishness.

The cops will arrest you for it.

That's not what a gun is for.

But Biden thinks it's a good idea. What an ass-hole.

These know-nothing ass-holes like Biden are the ones who will be making any new gun laws.

If YOU support these know-nothing ass-holes like Biden, what does that make YOU?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:02am PT
putting Biden in charge of coming up with plans about guns is like the UN having Iraq be the "human rights" representative.. Cant make this shyt up...

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:03am PT
An LA Times book review from last week:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

One of the 'Gun Guys'

Author Dan Baum discusses his new book, which aims to bring another perspective to the national debate by curating the thoughts of an eclectic collection of firearm owners.

By Carolyn Kellogg, Los Angeles Times
February 14, 2013, 2:10 p.m.

Dan Baum has an agenda. He wants you to listen to the guys who like guns particularly if you are an NPR-listening, Whole Foods-shopping progressive. That's how you could describe Baum, a former New Yorker staff writer and lefty down the line except for his love of rifles, revolvers and the rest.

"From the urban, educated effete liberal Democrat side of my world I'm hearing all of this disparaging of 'gun guys,' how stupid and awful they are," he says, speaking by phone from his home in Colorado. "These are conversations that for years I've endured as kind of like a closeted gay man listening to people talking about 'fags' and 'homos' I would just stay quiet."

Baum is bringing his weaponry out of the closet in "Gun Guys: A Road Trip," which Knopf is publishing March 5. In the book, he travels the country to meet some of America's 70 million to 80 million gun owners, talking to collectors and hunters, people concerned with self-defense and those who take pleasure in the skill of shooting. He gets a permit to carry a concealed weapon and explains the frisson, part power and part threat, of passing through daily life secretly armed.

His book arrives at an opportune moment. After highly publicized incidents of gun violence like the killing of six adults and 20 children at Sandy Hook Elementary in December, gun control again becomes a topic of heated public debate.

"Both camps have driven each other so far apart that we can't talk about this stuff rationally, because it's tribal," says Baum.

Yet he tends to lay the blame at the feet of his liberal cohorts. "The anti-gun tribe thinks it can weaken the gun tribe by attacking the totem. By banning it, by making it invisible, by paring it down as much as it can."

With one foot in each camp, Baum sees himself as uniquely positioned to explain gun-lovers to gun-haters. "I just want people, when they think about these questions, to have listened to rational, calm, intelligent voices that they might not otherwise have encountered," he says. It is an eclectic lineup: a Texas pig hunter, a wealthy collector, a Hollywood gun prop house and the man who founded Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

Baum's book about New Orleans after Katrina, "Nine Lives," also wove together the voices of the people he interviewed; he draws out his subjects, despite his own strong opinions.While his interviewees in "Gun Guys" provide an interesting narrative, the most enlightening element of the book may be its clear explanation of some of the basics of contemporary gun ownership.

Many gun-control advocates suggest banning assault rifles; Baum points out that the most popular gun in America today is the Bushmaster AR-15: It's modular, highly customizable, lightweight and easy to shoot well.

"It's the only gun anybody wants," Baum says. And what is an AR-15? An assault rifle.

"Far from being some kind of bizarre anomaly of the gun business, it is the absolute heart of the gun business: the most popular gun and the most profitable gun," Baum says. "So if you're wondering why even Barack Obama has backed off from the assault-rifle ban, that's why."

If the question "Who needs an assault rifle?" seems entirely rational to his liberal friends, to most American gun owners it sounds like a direct attack. For Angelenos, the equivalent might be "Who needs a car?" If technically we don't need one, the question seems like a threat to our core way of living.

"Gun guys are not like camera buffs; they're not like fly fishermen, not like car buffs. It's deep, it's really deep," he explains. "I was really trying to figure out why these things move us, why they are so important to us."

Baum's own love affair with guns began at age 5; at summer camp he discovered he had a natural aptitude for target shooting. He was attracted to the physicality of guns and charmed by the James Bond mythology he associated with them.

But in his liberal suburb, the late '60s brought a schism between the weapons and his world. "I was against the [Vietnam] war too, and aspired to the hippie aesthetic as much as any other sixth-grader," he writes. "But that didn't keep me from liking guns. To me, they were separate."

This separation between guns and violence is an essential part of Baum's world view. As he details the way guns make him feel, one thing becomes clear: He finds power in carrying but not using a weapon. "Out on the street, I felt vigilant, aloof from petty animosities," he writes. He eschews verbal engagement when secretly armed and he says it's not just him.

"Gun guys derive a tremendous amount of self-esteem from being able to live alongside these incredibly dangerous things without anybody getting hurt," he says.

He imagines the thought process this way: "I can live with guns, I can travel around with guns, I can take them to the range and shoot guns, I can teach children to shoot guns, I can hunt with guns, I can carry a gun, and nobody gets hurt. Because I am competent and careful and enough of a sheepdog to manage this incredibly lethal thing."

The juxtaposition of the lethal potential of guns with the feeling of power they impart is apparent in the tragic story of Brandon Franklin, a promising young man Baum had met in New Orleans while working on "Nine Lives."A few years later, when Baum was working on this gun book, Franklin was murdered during a dispute with his ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend. Brandon had not been carrying a gun; the other man had.

"The unknowable that really tortured me," Baum writes, "was this: if Brandon had been formally inducted into the sheepdog cadre and had had a legal gun concealed on his person.... Might the gun have saved his life without ever being drawn?"

The inverse, of course, is the other side of the debate: Wouldn't his life have been saved if his murderer hadn't carried one at all?

Copyright 2013, Los Angeles Times

Gun Guys: A Road Trip

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:18am PT
STFU hedge. You have nothing new. Never did answer how much pot you smoke either...?

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:22am PT
jghedge owns no guns. He doesn't shoot. His opinions on guns carry equal weight as LEB's opinions on climbing.

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:39am PT
Your England numbers add up to nothing. If you knew anything about guns, you'd see that. But you own no guns, and you don't shoot. Therefore, you have no knowledge.

Mar 1, 2013 - 01:50am PT
Why don't you guys take this to an appropriate forum? Don't have the guts? Or you don't have the guts to shut up? What's your problem?

Each and every time ANY of you bump this thread, you bring down the climbing stoke in this joint. Pathetic.

And if you want to say "just ignore it" well, maybe I could, but when a bunch of old white dudes keep waving their scrawny old dicks in your face, it's just NASTY.

You disrespect CMac, you disrespect Big Mike, you disrespect a lot of us.

Go dry hump each other somewhere else. Thank you.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:53am PT

"35 gun deaths in the UK last year

12,000 in the US

Guns are outlawed in the UK.

Those are facts, not opinions, boys.

Can't handle the truth? Think shooting a gun makes those numbers less real, or less relevant?

Better think again, kids."

How many times are you going to post that broken record sh#t? MOVE ON.
Admit it... you're high right now.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 02:04am PT
I only post when this is on the top page. Count the number of times jhedge has posted... the same thing... in the same format... over... and over.... and over... and over.... and over... and over... and over....

It's relevant for some of us who carry in the back country. It's relevant when you consider how easy it is for places like Auburn Quarry to be shut down for no apparently good reason (as in that is not constitutionally protected) and what a considerable fight continues for a constitutionally protected right, especially when you consider what you may face when regulation comes to your favorite crag. It's as relevant as the questions about climbing ethics and style, and whether it's appropriate to take a rack on a chukar hunting trip to the middle of nowhere, Nevada, or what kind of threat you face from the local target shooters out by the cliff side.

This is not ego stroking, it's not disrespectful to bump the thread when there's some intelligent argument or debate to be had. It doesn't disrespect CMac or Supertopo when climbers discuss other issues or aspects of their lives outside of climbing in a manner that fosters thought and intelligent debate. Indeed, it would be interesting to hear some of the opinions of the climbing legends who participate here... though I doubt they'll be likely to weigh in much, on such a hot-topic subject when it's so clearly fueled by emotion, bullsh#t, and ignorance that overshadows anything reasonable. Such is life in the public eye... learn to watch your ass first.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 02:32am PT
"And as I've posted many times (and literally never gotten an answer to(, if anyone has any ideas on how to get our gun deaths down to the level opt countries that have outlawed them, I'd be glad to listen.

So far, though, outlawing them is the only proven tactic that works."

No... outlawing guns is the only solution you're willing to accept, and you point to the government of some other country as if it's the cure-all solution to a single line-item issue in this one. Wow. That's like comparing guns to cars. In fact, judging from your recent posting history, it's about the only thing you care about on this climbing website in, oh, say the last six hundred posts that you've made.

Furthermore, you've openly stated that you'd be willing to consider anyone who refused to turn in their weapons to be in "armed insurrection" against this country, with all subsequent consequences. You even openly stated you'd be willing to trade the lives of those people for the lives of the approximate 12,000 you list as victims as a "fair trade".

So in direct contradiction to your own repetitive rantings here against gun violence, you're willing to kill anyone who would not disarm themselves in response to total governmental confiscation, instead of following standard legal procedure. Additionally, while you fully use the first amendment to your personal benefit, you willingly ignore the second and would be willing to toss whatever others would get in your way relative to elimination of the second, all while painting yourself as a good American poster-boy for the liberal contingent.

Instead, much like our idiot vice president, you make a great argument for why we shouldn't be passing any new restrictions at all.

Biden advises his wife to fire a shotgun off the front porch without identifying a target.... Yeah... That worked GREAT when Cheney did it. And you seriously believe these people are going to lead us to a great solution... Good luck with that.

Now.... Copy, quote, and rebut... just like all your other posts. It's your formula. And answer the goddam question... What's your drug of choice? Or are ya just too chickenshit to admit it?

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 02:38am PT
Fact: I put food on my family's table with my firearms.
Fact: I've never shot anyone with my firearms.
Fact: I've shot AT someone once, returning fire when they fired on me from across a canyon.
Fact: I personally know other people who have defended their own lives and their family's lives with their firearms.
Fact: Most of the firearms deaths you like to quote are, in fact, suicides that would likely be carried out by other methods.
Fact: Mexico outlaws firearms. Tell me, if they've done the same as jolly old England, why is it not working there?
Fact: The United States Supreme Court has ruled that we, the American people, have a RIGHT to own firearms, with reasonable restrictions. Therefore, your theory of ban and confiscate is not viable within united states law. Period.

Oh sorry, are those inconvenient for you?

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 03:06am PT
"What "standard legal procedure" are you referring to?"
Uh, arrest, court, prosecution, fine/jail.

"And why are gun owner's lives more important than the innocent victims of gun violence?"
Why do you consider gun owners less valuable? You fight for the victims by trading those you consider worthless? Nice.

"And again - do you have any suggestions whatsoever as to how to get our gun deaths down to the level of countries that have outlawed them?"
Hello Mexico! Care to address that?
I offered compromise and reduction WAYYY up thread, which you promptly ignored. You're solution is bunk. It's not legal in this country. Come up with something legal, that works, and maybe the rest of us will consider it. Until then, you're spouting bullsh#t.

"You complain about debate supposedly fueled by emotion, bullshit and ignorance, then offer nothing but that. Facts, stats, historical data? Nothing but asking me if I'm high? Really?"
You haven't answered yet.
So... my personal life experience means nothing. Good to know. None of my facts were worthy to you. Also good to know. Have you been to England? I have. And France, Belgium, Holland, Austria, Germany, Italy, Hungary, Mexico, Australia, and New Zealand.
But you just go on ahead and consider me a worthless gun nut in spite of my willingness to compromise, and desire to reduce violent crime. Just because I don't cow down to your way of thinking.

"Why even bother?"
Because your superiority complex is giving me hives. I want to see what else you've got to offer, and so far, it's repetition and disappointment.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 03:12am PT
You know dude, there's another whole great big world of other things to do and talk about. You have fun here on the gun thread, and I'll come visit you next week to see how... pardon me... IF you've progressed.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 03:20am PT
"Not lending the anecdotal stuff too much credence, I'm afraid..."

Oh? F*#k you then. If my life's experience is not worthy of your consideration, then neither is your opinion worthy of my time.

You're here to convince people your solution is correct. Why else would you bother?

"Try getting your stats about gun suicide vs homicide straight, and you might do better next time.

You failed tonight"

No sir, you failed. You discounted all I've said based on my lack of following up on your statistic and you point to that as your big moral victory, your evidence of superior intelligence?

You've utterly convinced me your opinion has no merit.


Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 10:37am PT
Never once did I dispute 35 deaths in a single year in England, as referenced by you repeatedly. I called your opinion crap, but you clearly cant comprehend the difference. You failed to address the failure of Mexico,s ban in preventing gun homicides there.

You really want me to take the time to research the issue? Ok.
But I can tell right now there are no facts you wont ignore that contradict your opinion. You,re not debating, you,re preaching.

FACT- The UK ALLOWS firearm ownership, albeit with strict regulation. What was that you were saying throughout this thread? You yourself cannot get even your most basic argument correct mr hedge.
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