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Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Yes Norton, yet those are ALL estimates. I never was called by a gun census taker, nor anyone else i know.

yes Ron, of COURSE numbers are estimates, but that is the best we can do based on all reported crimes involving firearms

the fact that numbers are estimates does not mean they are not accurate, just means they are pretty good guesses since it is impossible to know the exact numbers

but I am sure you don't have any problem with those numbers anyway and neither do I, and I did not present them to support or attack anything, just thought it was interesting


anyway, it all doesn't matter does it?
maybe we will get some tougher straw buyer penalties and broader background checks, that's about it, hardly anything for anyone to object to anyway
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
some Vet says some negative things on a forum somewhere, and the next day DHS shows up to sieze his weapons.. Could you see such things taking place?

We can hope!

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/reports-author-kyle-fatally-shot-gun-range
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
It is only 2 orders of magnitude.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Yeah, MUST be other agendas...

38% of households have guns

58% of Americans want stricter gun control legislation

100% of those who think Obama is coming for their guns are morans
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Apr 2, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
So predictable that our lawmakers have a knee-jerk reaction to the nutcases in our society, and in doing so, punish all of the responsible gun owners in this nation.

At the same time, they give credence to these despicable murderers by giving them exactly what so many of them seek...fame and notoriety. Suddenly, the Adam Lanzas of our society are martyrs....and those out there in our society that share that same, demented mindset, are inspired to follow in those awful footsteps.

The truth of the matter is this....our society grows more and more evil by the day. The breakdown of family values, and parents allowing their children to participate in and view such horrible actions via various media (video games, movies, TV, etc.) create a generation that knows no value for human life.

Irresponsible parenting and a society and media that shoves violence down the throats of our most precious resource...our kids...is destroying our communities across this great nation.

Every ill-conceived law that the powers that be can draw up, will do nothing to stop evil. If these lawmakers want to truly make a difference, they should put their power to use against Hollywood and the companies that produce the violence that fuels a young mind to turn violent.

Above that, parents need to sack up and become exactly what a parent should be.....and train a child to love their neighbor as themselves.

Parents wield more power in this issue than any lawmaker ever will.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 2, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Misspelling it that many times makes you wonder who the moron really is.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Sorry to hear about your brothers Ron. A couple of my cousins served in Desert Storm. A handful of my friends were in Iraq this last go round. With the exception of 1, they are all a hollow shell of their former selves. War takes a brutal toll on the soul.

But if they are a potential threat to public safety (like Lanza, like Holmes, like Routh, like Elder, like Hasan, etc), they shouldn't have guns. Just like blind people shouldn't have cars, people with Tourette's shouldn't have microphones, and people who are sexually attracted to children should not be teachers or priests... even if they have never been involved in (or busted for) any illegal activity.


Above that, parents need to sack up and become exactly what a parent should be.....and train a child to love their neighbor as themselves.

... while keeping a gun on the nightstand, of course.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Apr 2, 2013 - 03:03pm PT

"... while keeping a gun on the nightstand, of course."



The gun owners I know keep their guns in a safe manner, and teach their children right off the bat that guns are NOT to be handled by them, and that should they ever do so, their ass will be kicked up, down and sideways!

Raise your kids to understand consequences for misbehaving.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Ron, I just want to get this straight... are you advocating that every adult who has not yet been convicted of a felony should be allowed essentially unlimited access to guns (2 a week), regardless of their mental health status and/or perceived potential risk to society?

But you would still like to restrict the availability of weapons based on suspected gang affiliations, right?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Then who decides?

It seems you don't trust the Dr's. Especially the ones at the VA who "radically abuse" the diagnosis of PTSD. Do you trust any Dr's... you do know they are "scientists" right?... with all their bullshit "theories" and "statistics" and "studies."

I sure as sh#t don't feel qualified. If someone told me I was too mentally unstable to own a gun or do anything that might threaten the safety of others, who am I to argue?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
The gun owners I know keep their guns in a safe manner, and teach their children right off the bat that guns are NOT to be handled by them, and that should they ever do so, their ass will be kicked up, down and sideways!

good point

but what about the other mega million gun owners you do not know personally?

and, you can't legislate parental control, and expecting people to act responsibly also does not work

got any other ideas to if not prevent at least lessen the likely hood of mass murders?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
But how people reacted to that has changed, and in large- due to the way the VA uses blanket treatments

I don't think that is fair. Modern warfare is NOTHING like it used to be. Soldiers would sit in trenches or foxholes until it was time to launch an attack or defend against the same, and then shoot it out with other soldiers.

From my understanding, the modern wars in the ME involve townspeople the soldiers had interacted with on a daily basis all the sudden opening fire on them. That has got to be FAR more stressful than "conventional" warfare. Anyone who has had to live through that and shows signs of PTSD seems like a pretty high risk to me.


Anyone can snap for any reason at any time.

But some are way more prone than others. The vast majority of murderers show signs of mental instability before they kill. Why not have a bit of screening to pick out the Rouths or Hasans before they snap? Why not focus on treatment, funded by huge fines imposed on straw purchasers/negligent gun shops? Mentally ill people who are a threat to themselves or others lose many of their rights and freedoms already, why exclude the 2nd amendment?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Wes,

it does seem that a lot people nowadays tend to denigrate PTSD, poo pah it as merely some kind of made up weakness, almost a ploy to get diagnosed with and receive a VA benefit check

because it is mental and not like being in a wheel chair with both legs blown off in Iraq

"mental" afflictions have historically been seen by the dumb fuks as not that legitimate an issue
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
blah blah blah... I consider Nam to be non-conventional "modern" war... and yes, VERY stressful... thank you for helping to illustrate my point....

VERY STRESSFUL


a ploy to get diagnosed with and receive a VA benefit check

Fine. Give them the benefit check, give them treatment, and take away their guns until they are all better. Seems pretty fuking simple.


Problems, problems, problems... no solutions... no wonder this country is fuked.

Merka... bunch of whiny bitches who can't solve their own problems, won't let their elected officials do it, praise their system of government as the greatest EVER, know there are some who OBVIOUSLY shouldn't have guns, but are too afraid that their government will conquer them if they try to restrict gun ownership AT ALL. Pathetic.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
That has got to be FAR more stressful than "conventional" warfare. Anyone who has had to live through that and shows signs of PTSD seems like a pretty high risk to me.

Check out the casualty rates of soldiers in WWI (in those lovely trenches) and compare with the casualty rates of soldiers in Vietnam or the modern wars in the Middle East.
The etymology of "shell shock" is also kind of interesting.
If the modern wars in the ME were anything like good old fashioned total wars, we wouldn't be in that sh#t.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Casualty rates have little or nothing to do with it. In fact, I'd venture a wager with the all mighty that those ill suited for war were among the first to die in WWI (2% casualty rate) and WWII (2.5%), whereas a higher percentage of ill suited soldiers survived the mental fukfest that was Nam (0.7% casualty rate).

Tactics change. Guerrilla warfare involving citizens is OBVIOUSLY more stressful... and obviously has a much higher chance of affecting the mental health of someone reentering society. I've heard of numerous cases where soldiers wanted to go back because they couldn't deal with life over here.

Thank god for drones and the computer game trained soldiers of the future.(?)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
guerilla warfare involving citzens yu say?? You mean the S Vietnamese werent citizens??

No Ron, I have already said I consider Nam to be non-conventional warfare, at least on par with the more recent wars in the ME.

But feel free to keep twisting it all you want. I'd expect nothing less.

Is this all an excuse for poor behavoir starting young?

Of course not. It is a diagnosis ascribed to someone who exhibits particular symptoms in hopes of better understanding the causes and ultimately treating the patient. Only a fool would look at it as an excuse.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
well,

I personally volunteer at the local VA hospital

I see the effect that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan has had on these young men and women

not talking about the missing arms and legs

when I sit be their bedside and listen to them talk about how unprepared they were to be pulled out of a war zone and sent back to the United States......their constant nightmares and their very real fears and anger......

PTSD is very real, very personal, and is every bit as crippling as physical wounds

anyone who thinks otherwise is naive, uninformed, and just plain fuking stupid as hell
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Sorry Ron, but as a scientist (and somewhat rational human being) it is hard for me not to comment on the absurdity of your posts. There are over 1 million mental health specialists with the VA, you hinge your entire argument on the opinion of one. There are probably a comparable number of applicable studies, you disregard them all.

Your approach is the same, regardless of the topic or discipline... you've made up your mind as to how the world works and will ignore the vast majority of evidence that contradicts your views and latch onto the few unnamed, unvetted, undocumented OPINIONS that support them. And you wonder why people don't show you more respect.

Thank god for old people who are able to keep an open mind!


Funny, this is the first picture on the VA's site:
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Ron,

I am not sure of the point you are trying to make about PTSD

you seem to recognize its effects on soldiers

but then you seem to also down play its effects, almost like you believe PTSD is some kind of fake
and is over prescribed and maybe Doctors should not be treating it with medications

just where do you stand on this, sorry I can't tell?

or maybe you aren't sure and just posting whatever comes to mind?
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