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moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Mar 23, 2013 - 02:28am PT
Guns

Death penalty

Are we PROUD?

I am ASHAMED.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 23, 2013 - 02:29am PT
Where I live, here in SoCal, we're a hell of a lot more like Mexico than any of the countries on your list. Therefore, if we adopt Mexican-style gun laws here, we'll get Mexico-style results. It's not a chance an intelligent person would want to take.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:38am PT
OK ok ,I lived in San Bernardino, Mexico, elsewhere in the US and in other countries on that list.

I would have to agree with Chaz that SoCal is most like mexico compared to other countries on that list (I've been to 19 of them).







Right now I live in one of the countries on that list. I don't agree that you guys could adopt our laws and get the great results we have. We adopted these laws when society was 1000 times better and smaller and more rural than the US is now. We had zero of the type of people that cause the problems with guns in the first place. This meant that we have had 60 years of building our cities and civilization without guns, without creating a vaccum, without a constitution that everyone thinks means we have a right to guns. When our gun laws came into effect, there weren't orders for billions of bullets and big gun companies selling as fast as possible. We didn't have the organized crime, or more than 4 cities over a million population when we restricted the types of guns that 72% of your crime is committed with. We didn't have 90% violent tv shows glamorizing weapons, video games weren't invented yet. We have NONE of the contributing factors. Sure, if you magically removed every gun from every bad guy in America you could get our results, but you haven't figured out magic yet, or a definition of bad guy.

Ignoring the reality of your current situation in it's entirety isn't magical.



To put this in perspective for other health professionals (not spazhedge or whomever gets pissy when an example is used), it is like saying we banned processed sugary drinks 100 years ago. Back then, everyone grew their own food, got exercise doing it, etc. Doing it now, in NY, isn't working so well. Even if they do it, your healthcare costs won't change since you have so many other contributing factors to your juvenile diabetes and other lifestyle sicknesses.


I think it would turn badly for you. But what do I know, I haven't lived in Burbank my whole life.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:41am PT
Including the bodies hanging from freeway overpasses?

And cartel flash takeover of towns to exact revenge and message killings.

And if Mexico and SC are so much alike, why do so many Mexican nationals try to sneak in to SC and very few US nationals the other way?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 23, 2013 - 09:50am PT
I've stayed in a condo where bodies were regularly hung from the ferris wheel across the street. Kinda ruins the day to wake up to that. Mafia.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 23, 2013 - 10:01am PT
We adopted these laws when society was 1000 times better and smaller and more rural than the US is now. We had zero of the type of people that cause the problems with guns in the first place. This meant that we have had 60 years of building our cities and civilization without guns, without creating a vaccum, without a constitution that everyone thinks means we have a right to guns. When our gun laws came into effect, there weren't orders for billions of bullets and big gun companies selling as fast as possible. We didn't have the organized crime, or more than 4 cities over a million population when we restricted the types of guns that 72% of your crime is committed with. We didn't have 90% violent tv shows glamorizing weapons, video games weren't invented yet. We have NONE of the contributing factors. Sure, if you magically removed every gun from every bad guy in America you could get our results, but you haven't figured out magic yet, or a definition of bad guy.


good points, tooth
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:10am PT
We had zero of the type of people that cause the problems with guns in the first place.

Still had the same percentage of those people back then, but they didn't have the anonymity provided by the crowd and were usually dealt with swiftly and brutally.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:34am PT
OK, our crime/homicide wasn't zero when our major gun laws were first enacted, but here's a picture of where they were at that time.


Credit: tooth

Credit: tooth


Similar trends. Dissimilar gun laws. If laws = homicide rate results, you would guess that both the US and Canada tightened gun laws in the '40's, and relaxed them in the 60's. Together. Simultaneously.

You would think that the two countries were similar, could be compared. Maybe let's have a look at the UK...



Credit: tooth








If you are so closed minded that the only factor in society you can see is death by gun, you will be fighting a loosing battle. There are more factors attached, more you have to deal with. You would be equivalent to a certain mayor outlawing big gulps to deal with juvenile diabetes. Sure, they do have a direct correlation, but they aren't the only factor. Sure, your argument is, well, what do you propose we do then? Ban all food but what you grow and prepare yourself? And that argument is, well, that of a simpleton.







Comparing US and Canada for gun crime and ignoring the fact that the US has 700% more people per capita incarcerated than Canada, half as many police per capita than Canada, higher overall crime, violence, etc. means that you truly do think that since one law was passed in one place and now that place has a different number than you do, that passing that same law will have the same effect on society. No, you have to change society, double your police force, reduce your crime rates by 1/7th, do all these other things to get to where we were 70 years ago, then get rid of the hand guns, and wait 70 years to be where we are today. You think there is a quick and easy way to do it with shock and awe, apache helicopters, but you were also in favor of Iraq/Afghanistan for the same reason! Keep living in your dream world.




EDIT: While i'd love to force my wishes on others (jk), I've simply moved to a place where the laws and crime rates are most to my liking. Maybe I should buy a gun (or expect a soldier to act with a gun in my place) and force my will on others. That'll work!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:57am PT
if we all had a gun in our hand the killer would think again.

we ahould all have russian saiga.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2013 - 11:59am PT
Does anyone make a mag larger than 5 rounds for the Saiga 20 gauge?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
True. But killers thinking again means the idiot has the chance to make another dumb choice. You can't guarantee that a gun will make a dummy make smart choice any more than logic can make jhedge quit ranting long enough to look at the big picture.


pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
i'm sure somebody would have killed the movie killer guy if we were all packing the heat like texas!

cya
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
What I find interesting is that Americans, pro or anti on this subject, ALL eventually resort to guns to solve their problems.



jhedge thinks he needs guns (but let someone else carry it) to remove guns from everyone.

Ron just uses one himself (non-hypocritical) to diffuse a situation.












That's how your society is, plain and simple. You changed slavery with it. Civil war, etc. Canada solves the same problems without guns. Just pointing out that the country closest to the US in every way is just so far different - especially in regards to guns. No other country comes this close in comparison.








I guess what jhedge wants to do is change the fabric of a country of 360million people and become something it isn't. Good for the lad. Too bad he takes such an unrealistic and simplistic view of it. Guys like that are who the government counts on for their 'shock and awe' and 'mission accomplished' PR drives.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
If more guns made us safer, we'd have the lowest gun murder rate, and the UK the highest.

A valid point.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
No more valid than saying that trees makes us TP, so since the US has more trees they have more toilet paper. It's all in how they are used in the collective psyche.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
You didn't change slavery with slaves, you aren't going to change gun crime with guns.



Try changing gun crime with slaves, since you changed slaves with guns???
WBraun

climber
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
jghedge -- "We ended slavery ...."

You haven't ended any slaver.

All you've accomplished in the last 13 years is increased it dramatically.

Americans are so fuking stupid ......
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
I have to agree Ron. We don't see that in my society. We have all the stats and laws that these guys are vying for, however, we actually have the guns that Ron has. A neighbor had full auto's a couple years ago (has since moved), and between 10 neighbors that I know about there are over 200 guns. So obviously if guns were the biggest issue, our neighborhood would have stats like the US.



We are missing the people element that when combined with the gun implement creates death.



You could change the people element and keep the implement and remove the death. But you can't keep the people element and change the implement and remove death. If you take your gun death stats out of your society, you are still multiples higher than Canada's homicide rates WITH gun crime included.
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Mar 23, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
jghedge, of those 12,000 or less gun murders each year, 75% of them are gangs and criminals killing each other. It's still bad, still murder, and still needs to be lower, but it's not the average lawful citizen doing all that damage. Consider that 75% to be your lawless 3rd world component of the violent gun criminals. Cartels and drug gangs and professional criminals fighting each other

that leaves about 3,000 or less gun murders by what once were lawful citizens. 3,000/310,000,000 that leave us at about 1/100,000


So you want to rid the US of guns because of all the criminal uses of guns. That's the same as getting rid of cars because drunk drivers kill 12,000 each year.

Not to mention, you are assuming the overall murder rate will fall dramatically without guns. It won't. There are already more murders not involving a gun then with a gun. No guns, that component will rise.



scott
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 23, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
You haven't ended any slaver.

All you've accomplished in the last 13 years is increased it dramatically.

Americans are so fuking stupid ......


Agreed. My friend works for www.exoduscry.org
Lots of work to do here.



I was using it as a point of how America turns to guns for issues. It may have done a better job to change slavery than it would to change gun ownership. And much more than it would do to change gun crime.
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