The Gun debate sandbox


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Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 21, 2012 - 02:04am PT
Yeah, after a year of six-on, six-off as an integral cog in one of these the appeal of small arms pretty much went to zero.

The idea that gun control somehow isn't the topic of the Dark Knight thread tells you how f*#ked up gun advocates are.
John M

Jul 21, 2012 - 02:13am PT
Jan, you're a delusional idiot. Sorry to be harsh, but in this instance it is what it is.

could you expand on what you think she said that is delusional or idiotic rather then just calling her names? I thought what she said was reasonable.

attack the argument.. not the person.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 21, 2012 - 07:02am PT
Americans are intrepid.

They all came here from a long way, rather than hole up in high mountain valleys.
The Swiss are to be complemented for their democracy and learning to get along, but it is much easier to do in an entrenched homogeneous society than on the frontier.

Yes. There are cultural differences.

Jul 21, 2012 - 09:49am PT
Jan said:
"It takes both the restriction of weapons and the will of the citizens to live in a cooperative and peaceful society for gun bans to work"

Yup, the swiss gun laws make people have weapons, peaceful society with low gun violence. But lots of weapons in everyones hands.

Mexico has strong gun laws and lot and lots of gun violence. The 2nd part of your statement which I bolded is right.

We have lots of laws here that people just disregard and we don't need more laws. Check the drug laws. Why pass more laws that only serve to make honest people criminals and do nothing? Look at Mexican drug/gun violence as an example. The mexicans have gotten the guns out of the hands of honest folks, the criminals (and police) ignore the laws and run rampant. We'd be better served banning violence on TV. Anyone going to take on the first amendment? You can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater, and their are restrictions on speech. The government restricts a man and a woman getting naked on tv to make passionate love, but let violence of all sorts be shown all day long.

1st amendment amendment?

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2012 - 10:04am PT
Gun laws are not the issue here. We currently live in a system where people are permitted to live their lives out in nice instirutions after committing extremely violent acts. Insanity? Duh! So f*#king what, get the insane wackos off the books by killing them fast. You don't see this sh#t in Singapore.


Jul 21, 2012 - 10:08am PT
...or Switzerland either. Spending less money on mental health care was something that started during the Reagan era. Part of the question was "don't crazy people have rights too"?. And where do those rights end and ours begin? Thus, they let out some folks who could care for themselves and were deemed non-violent. Lots of them as it turned out.

Not sure that would have made a bit of difference in this shooting. Even in societies with strong gun control and significant spending on therapeutic clinics, and have restrictions on TV violence there are issues. Recent example A:

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 21, 2012 - 10:28am PT
You may call me a delusional idiot if you wish, and there are certainly more gun murders in Switzerland than when I lived there, but the statistics are not favorable to the U.S.

Some examples of murders per 100,000.
U.S. 5.0
Canada 1.81
U.K. 1.17
Switz. .66
Japan .40
Iceland .31

etc. etc.

And yes, Ron is right. We have unique problems but one of the reasons Switzerland is a better country to compare ourselves to than Japan for instance, is that they are divided ethnically, linguistically, and religiously with no less than four official languages.


Mountain Project
Jul 21, 2012 - 10:37am PT
There should be full-body scanners at all movie theaters. This should include pat downs as well.

Jul 21, 2012 - 10:58am PT
Thank you Jan for your level headed contribution. The problem is very deep seated and will not soon go away. Perhaps someday we will not get today's overheated emotional responses to issues accompanied by overt lack of respect for others.

Americans have been described as lonely and ignorant but dominant. Dominant largely due to our expending our once vast energy resources in just 100 years and because our country did not have to be rebuilt following Wars I and II. We seem to be set upon a course to reverse the great good fortune we experienced in the past.

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 21, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Ron...You idiot.....The Swiss have sledz...! No one f*#kz with the sledz...! RJ

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 21, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Being that this was in Urban/Suburban Colorado, a state with higher than average gun ownership, both legal and illegal, it seems unlikely that in a crowded theatre like this there weren't other guns in that room. Of course we the public can never know about that unless someone who was there with a gun steps forward.

It's interesting to speculate why an armed person wouldn't shoot back and all kinds of reasons they wouldn't. Discretion, fear, common sense, other reasons we probably can't grasp without being there.

Perhaps there were guns and cool heads. Who knows?

I wonder if we'll ever know.

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2012 - 11:47am PT
This is why Cragman wants his guns...

^^Silver's post is right on the money.

One only has to study the history of Socialist governments to see that our country is going down that road under Obama....and he is only getting started with his agenda.

I suspect that should Obama get re-elected, within his term there will likely be another civil war.....and not just because of these 2nd Amendment issues.

Jul 21, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
That post is in the wrong thread. An obvious rejoinder.

and George Bush was only getting started with his agenda when the whole thing fell apart. The unassailable conclusion is we need to go back and try it again. The result will be different the next time.

When someone tells you this ask them one simple question.

Where are you keeping your own money? Here?

Or somewhere else?

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 21, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
So if one of the movie goer's started shooting at the bullet-proof vested nut job , would the bullets have had any effect , for example , knocking the killer down...? I put on a down jacket and face shield and had a fellow worker shoot finish nails at me to test the impact of a pin nailer...It didn't hurt...Okay , never mind...

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 21, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
That sounds like a segment from one of those jack ass movies ;)

So, another question. Given that it was dark and smokey and that these things are actually over relatively fast, would it be likely to be apparent that this guy wore body armor? Would you know that from across the theatre? In the training for carry permits are you taught to expect, or look for that?

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 21, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
Seems odd they didn't ask you that question,maybe not if they'd already accounted for the shots fired....

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 21, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
There is no rational reason that assault rifles should be legal in modern society.
beef supreme

the west
Jul 21, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
Been following both of these threads, interesting commentary on a terrible event; and naturally this would turn into a political gun debate- look at the news, it's not just sTopians that have taken it there.

I have to ask the gun control crowd though: if you found yourself in that situation- would you rather there be a chance of someone else having a firearm or would you rather know, without a doubt, that no one else in the room had a gun aside from the crazy fuk shooting everyone? Think about it, because when you preach gun control, especially concealed carry, that is what you're potentially creating.

I, for one, would much rather know that at least there was a chance of someone being able to put a stop to or deter the event- many of you have said the chances of that are slim to none- but there would be a chance no?

The discussion about 'automatic weapons' or 'assault rifles' has no bearing here- there isn't anything special about a .223 that looks like a full auto if it isn't.

Reading some of the comments on the original thread about gun control makes me really wonder about some of you people. I mean, for fuks sake, we're climbers to varying degree right? Doesn't that involve some sort of risk/decision making process? Isn't it rooted, in some degree, in freedom of choice? Ok, free soloing is dangerous... should it be illegal? I always wonder why it's against the law to kill yourself, or not wear a seatbelt- it's my fukin body, fuk you. How about personal responsibility!?

I am of the opinion that govt control is part of the reason our society is finding itself in the situation it is: I would argue that because of restrictive rules 'to protect people' that people have stopped thinking for themselves, stopped looking for cars at crosswalks, and stopped looking out for their own well being because it's been ingrained that 'the man' will protect you. There seems to be, in my own twisted perspective of reality, an almost orchestrated attempt to get people to become 'un-responsible', to depend on the govt/the man/ big brother/ whatever.

Also to blame: a culture of violence, I don't think anyone would refute that.

Just my thoughts, best wishes to the victims and their families; I hope that society doesn't waste too much on the perp.


Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 21, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
Beef, I would MUCH rather know there was only one wacko with a gun in a given situation like that. Only one shooter to keep an eye on. Yes it is theoretically possible that another gunner could save the day like a superhero, but given human falibity I have to think the odds would be that it would put more people at greater danger.
beef supreme

the west
Jul 21, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
I understand your reasoning for being afraid of another person shooting in a situation like that, but, what I don't understand is why you imply that another person would be a 'wacko' as well.
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