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Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 22, 2011 - 02:01pm PT

I think this is so stupid. Who in their right mind want to piss off a bunch of Vikings? Look at what they did to Rome!


http://news.yahoo.com/norway-ripped-oslo-bomb-youth-camp-shootings-185204240.html

fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
AFS,

I know who and they believe in Islam.


Don't worry Norway or America, Israel will protect you.

The evil one
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
Too early to tell what or who. Early reports have a tall blond haired, Norwegian speaking man dressed as a policeman with an automatic weapon killing the children. http://www.debka.com/article/21142/ towards the bottom notes :On Utoya island, police arrested a tall, blonde, Norwegian-speaking man as the suspected gunman after he was shot and wounded. They also found explosives and hand grenades at the youth camp which had been sponsored by the prime minister's Labor party.

I know that a more mellower group of folks might not exist on the planet, and we all wish them well over this unbelievable horror show. I hope that those injured recover fast, and that the perpetrators of this outrage are brought to justice so they can never do this kind of thing again.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
Nothing like jumping to conclusions fattrad--apparently an incorrect one, as the latest bulletins indicate that an individual is in custody who is Norwegian and not believed to be connected with international terrorism. More like Oklahoma City than 9/11.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
Wow, talk about poking a lion. The world likes having Norway preoccupied with handing out Peace Prizes. There is a good reason we keep them focused on "Peace." Wow. Always beware of the quiet mellow guy... When he goes off, it will be a work of art.

AFS
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
Oh, sure. It's a coincidence the shooting happened on the same day around the same time.

Islamist groups have successfully recruited all sorts of misguided dipshits from the very countries they attack.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
...with an automatic weapon.

But those are illegal there!

All sh*t aside, this is seriously bad news.

It sounds like they have the shooter in custody. Once he is thoroughly "debriefed" maybe they'll send him off like they did Quisling.
coz

Gym climber
not sure
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
Fatty,

You show yourself to be a low IQ, racist time and again.

My condolences to all those involve.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
I know who and they believe in Islam.

What nonsense. Have you conveniently forgotten Timothy McVeigh?

Death toll is 16, probably will rise. They believe the same man did the bomb and the island attack and he's in custody.

Edit: McVeigh from Wikipedia
McVeigh was awarded a Bronze Star for his service in the first Gulf War. He had been a top-scoring gunner with the 25mm cannon of the Bradley Fighting Vehicles used by the U.S. 1st Infantry Division to which he was assigned.McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military.[83]......
McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[84] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[85] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[86] In a March, 1996, interview with Time magazine, McVeigh professed his belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[84] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[87][88] In June, 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News claiming to be an agnostic.[89] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[90]
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
Aftenposten, the main newspaper in Norway, reports two attacks. A bomb, possibly a car bomb, outside government offices in central Oslo, and shooting of ten or more at a youth summer camp in Oslo harbour. They believe the attacks may be connected, but that there is no known link to any terror organization. (Neither is there very much hard information, yet.) The attacks happened in early afternoon Friday, Oslo time, and it's now nearly midnight there. Downtown Oslo was essentially evacuated after the explosion.

http://www.aftenposten.no/

Let's not jump to conclusions about another terrible event. We'll probably know soon enough exactly what happened and why. I'll see if any cousins or friends know more, but may not hear anything until Saturday. Some work or live quite close by.
Credit: Aftenposten
A photo of the aftermath of the bomb, looking west over downtown Oslo, perhaps from Holmenkollen. The island where the shootings occurred is off the photo to the right.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
Nothing like jumping to conclusions fattrad--apparently an incorrect one, as the latest bulletins indicate that an individual is in custody who is Norwegian and not believed to be connected with international terrorism. More like Oklahoma City than 9/11.

what a crazy instance of someone correctly identifying a mistake (fattad jumping to a conclusion) and the committing the exact same mistake at the same time (saying criminal not believed to be connected with int'l terrorism).
Seems like it's too early to say, unless I'm somehow missing breaking news.
boogerman

Trad climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
Wow, total idiocy on both sides. We don't know for sure who did this yet, so saying anything definitive is certainly premature; but it's not out of line to recognize that there is a group of people in this world that make this sort of mayhem their raison detre, who are known to recruit folks from the local population to bypass racial profiling, and who have threatened Norway for reprinting the Danish cartoons of Mohammed.

Let me repeat that last bit: These are people who have threatened exactly this sort of death and destruction over printing a f*#king cartoon. There are a lot of crazy, stupid, and violent people in this world, but not many of them are quite this crazy. Harboring a strong suspicion that they may be responsible is not racist. It is not discriminatory against a race, but discriminatory towards a particular belief system, and one that clearly is deserving of it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
There are a lot of crazy, stupid, and violent people in this world, but not many of them are quite this crazy. Harboring a strong suspicion that they may be responsible is not racist. It is not discriminatory against a race, but discriminatory towards a particular belief system, and one that clearly is deserving of it.
perfect description of McVeigh

Police arrested the suspected gunman at the camp and the government have confirmed that he is Norwegian.
So although they know the shooter is Norwegian, indeed, we really have NO idea what this is about!
death toll now 17

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
The Muslim world tends to view Norway favourably. Norway is generous with foreign/development aid. It also takes a reasonably balanced stance in the United Nations and elsewhere on a fair solution to the Palestine/Israel question, and sometimes criticizes the USA and Canada for their blind support of Israel. Norway played a key role in the meetings that led to the Oslo accord of 1993, between the Palestinian Liberation Organization and Israel.

I don't know what views al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations have of Norway and its policies, or whether its cheap rhetoric is of much interest. al Qaeda essentially seems to be a nihilistic group, which claims to hate everyone.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
Norway is also a very oil rich country which can make it a target.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
We'll know soon enough what happened, and why. There's a lack of hard information at this point, so we can speculate all we like to no effect.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jul 22, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
This is KNOTT a "tragedy."

It is MASS MURDER perpetrated by a whack-job(s).
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
I know four Norwegian climbers personally and a lot of Americans with Norwegian blood.

Sorry this happened to our friends there. I hope the death toll stays small and that the perps are captured.

We're with you Norway.

Give the Israel dead horse a break Fatty, jeez. You ahow a remarkable lack of tact at times.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
Go Israel!

They go through this very real fear every single minute of every single day. They have rockets fired at their children just about every day.

They don't deserve it just like Norway doesn't deserve it just like Mumbai doesn't deserve it just like ....

Innocent people don't "deserve" anything except our kindness.

Yes, it is that simple.


Skip
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
It's a tragedy anytime this happens, weather a market in Kabul, or Norways capital. From info trickling out it sounds like it might be the work of a neo-nazi.

I will never be able to fathom what drives some to random acts of murderous violence.
Gearhead

Trad climber
Novato Ca
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
No reply from Fattrad so far
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
Go Israel!

They go through this very real fear every single minute of every single day. They have rockets fired at their children just about every day.

They don't deserve it just like Norway doesn't deserve it just like Mumbai doesn't deserve it just like ....

Innocent people don't "deserve" anything except our kindness.

Yes, it is that simple.


Skip


WTF does this have to do with go Israel?? The first to jump on the Anti-Islam bandwagon with Fatty, before things are known in any detail.

I know you don't understand this skip, but there are innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, KSA, Jordan, Egypt, and yay verily, even in the future state of Palestine. Most of those innocent people in all of those countries just happen to be Muslims. God, what ignorant pigs we come off as at times.....






survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 22, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
Bump for right wing extremism.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 22, 2011 - 08:39pm PT
Faatrad....israel will defend Norway....On what? Snowshoes?
Tobia

Social climber
GA
Jul 22, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
It's a tragedy anytime this happens, whether a market in Kabul, or Norways capital

That is a point that hopefully no one will argue about.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jul 22, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
Don't worry Norway or America, Israel will protect you.
F U C K O F F Fats. Seriously. Do it.

There is no way we will know what happened in Norway or why or what or any of that stuff. It's horrible to all ends of the earth a violent attack happened there. It can happen anywhere. We have no idea where is next nor why.

The world is falling to pieces with this asymmetric warfare. It really scares the crap outta me what with my son in the military now.........
QITNL

climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
Wow, this is really awful, they are reporting at least 80 dead, a lot of them kids. It sounds like the same guy set up the bombs then shot up the camp. My condolences to all of our Norwegian friends.

From
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/22/explosion-damages-buildings-in-norwegian-capital/
or
http://www.npr.org/2011/07/22/138626825/police-norway-bombing-shootings-domestic-terror

Righties or lefties, read either you wish - they share the same text:

A police official said the suspect appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organizations at all." The official spoke on condition of anonymity because that information had not been officially released by Norway's police.

"It seems it's not Islamic-terror related," the official said. "This seems like a madman's work."

The official said the attack "is probably more Norway's Oklahoma City than it is Norway's World Trade Center." Domestic terrorists carried out the 1995 attack on a federal building in Oklahoma City, while foreign terrorists were responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

The official added, however, "it's still just hours since the incident happened. And the investigation is going on with all available resources."

The attacks formed the deadliest day of terror in Western Europe since the 2004 Madrid train bombings, when shrapnel-filled bombs exploded, killing 191 people and wounding about 1,800.

The motive was unknown, but both attacks were in areas connected to the ruling Labor Party government. The youth camp, about 20 miles (35 kilometers) northwest of Oslo, is organized by the party's youth wing, and the prime minister had been scheduled to speak there Saturday.

A 15-year-old camper named Elise said she heard gunshots, but then saw a police officer and thought she was safe. Then he started shooting people right before her eyes.

"I saw many dead people," said Elise, whose father, Vidar Myhre, didn't want her to disclose her last name. "He first shot people on the island. Afterward he started shooting people in the water."

Elise said she hid behind the same rock that the killer was standing on. "I could hear his breathing from the top of the rock," she said.

She said it was impossible to say how many minutes passed while she was waiting for him to stop.
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 22, 2011 - 09:24pm PT


Too f*#king sad. Not that they'll read it, but condolences to those affected.


I assumed that Fattrad was being ironic but maybe he was just wrong.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 09:31pm PT
Fatty was being ironic... That's his "thing."
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 22, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 22, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
The guy is a really sick, wicked, cold hearted, sadistic & calculating s.o.b. whatever motivated him! He evidently rounded up all these youths and then slaughtered them. Some dove into the water in an attempt to escape. They fear some may have drowned. Darkness descended on Oslo today. I was listening to Rammsteins song Dalai Lama last night, and musing on what an eerie myth to have as part of your culture(distant nordic culture). Just a coincidence I guess...

edit: The song is an adaption of Goeths late 18th century poem Erlkonig(an elf/dark spirit that comes & takes away their children)and subsequently set to music by Schubert. BTW, the song/lyrics has nothing to do with the DL or Budhism and the titile Dalai Lama is only obliquely related.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 22, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
From reports I've read, this man was wearing a police uniform and rallied a group of children...then executing them.

Holy sh#t....
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
Sociopaths always feel justified, better than the rest of "the sheep" and... They don't feel remorse. I bet this guy feels heroic. He won't be taking his own life because he feels wonderful about the results.

His IQ must be very high in order to pull this off and... He is good looking which I bet he has used throughout his life for getting his way. This also has helped his ego and confidence expand into his belief that he is a super human. He must be a master manipulator. I bet he even put his picture up just so we can all get to look at him after this event. He's stroking his ego...

Crazy mofo...

I bet he even has a plan on how to fight the courts... Claim insanity? Drugs? Etc...

I really want to shoot him.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:45am PT
Aftenposten now reports 80 or more murdered at the Labour Party youth camp on Utøya, west of Oslo. Many more injured, some seriously. Semi-automatic or automatic weapons were used, and an unexploded bomb there is being deactivated. Seven or more are dead in the bombing in downtown Oslo, as they continue to search the wreckage. As mentioned upthread, they've arrested a 32 year old man ("ethnic Norwegian") and are questioning him, and searching his apartment. I believe he was arrested at or near Utøya, and may have set the bomb off first, then travelled to the island. Unidentified sources in the police say he has links to right-wing extremists, which in context of Norwegian policing means they're putting together the details and looking for accomplices. Not speculation, in other words. Downtown Oslo, and Utøya, have largely been sealed off to the public, in part by the military.

For background:
 Norway has fewer than five million people. 90 or so deaths is proportionately about three times as many as those who died in the USA on 11/9/01.
 The Labour Party has been the government in Norway for most of the time since World War II, often in coalitions. Despite the name, it is now slightly to the left of centre, in other words a liberal democratic party with a labour thread.
 Norway abolished capital punishment after the executions of Quisling and other collaborators in 1946 - even if the attacker(s) wasn't criminally insane.
 Norway has large armed forces. All young men must serve a year, and young women may if they wish. It is normal for the armed forces to take on a civil defence role.
 Ownership of rifles and shotguns is common in Norway, for hunting. Hand guns are heavily restricted, and semi-automatic and automatic weapons essentially banned to the public.

It's now Saturday morning in Norway, and the news there is of nothing else. I'm sure my cousins and friends there, even if not directly affected, have enough to worry about without my pestering them. It seems likely that King Harald, and possibly Prime Minister Stoltenberg, will address the country today.

Fattrad, skipt: Please apologize for your ignorant comments upthread, and remove them. If you have any decency, apologize for them. Your ideological ranting has no place here - even if the attack had been by Islamic terrorists. As Mark Twain put it, better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool by some, than to open your mouth, and prove that you're a fool to everyone.
QITNL

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 01:05am PT
Thanks for that reply and the additional information, Mighty Hiker. Regarding the proportional loss to the country, I had a feeling that was the case.

What Fattrad wrote has been bothering me all day. That probably makes him happy. It's my fault for letting myself be bothered - but sometimes I'd rather be bothered than not.

On the other hand, I feel odd about anyone who encourages, inflames or even tolerates this rhetoric here, those who a blind eye, oh that's just Jeff. I might be the new guy here - but someone checking in for the first time on the Internet, they're gonna think - hey, this place is kinda fukked up. They don't know our politards are not climbers; nonetheless, by association, I am embarrassed. I am complicit.

I was climbing with a real cool dude up in Tuolumne last weekend. I'm sure some of you guys know him. He knows this place. But he says he never comes here, too much ugliness, too much hate. I told him I get some good info here and I make a conscious effort to contribute, but I can't argue with that.

This thread - of all threads - should never have become a political thread. A summer camp got shot up. What are the odds a couple of climbers may be among the victims? Or kids who barely got a chance?

What will we as fellow climbers do to respond to this tragedy? Probably shoot off our mouths and little else.

Okay, I'll go back into the woods now, thanks.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 23, 2011 - 01:27am PT
Don't let the ignorance bother you folks.
Fatrad and skip know even less about Norway than they do about their their own country. I know we all thought that impossible.

Unreal massacre!
wtf man...
Wtf...

There is a serious right wing nut F*#k problem in Norway..
And they make douch f*#ks like Ted Nugget look like Boy George.
Why doesn't anybody ever massacre as#@&%es?
F*#king pussies have to kill kids..
QITNL

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:10am PT
Well I'll tell ya, Riley Wyna, you are just throwing gas on the fire and that display of ignorance bothers me, too.
coz

Gym climber
not sure
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:13am PT
Well, said Tami.

Ironic?

I think not!

Maybe look up the meaning of the word. Being Ironic has absolutely nothing to do with Fatty's statement.

Fatty is showing his true colors as a racist and in this case a naive hater of Muslims.

His comments are nothing but sick in my book and I fail to see what's so cool about the guy.

Anyway hopefully the world can move away from people with minds like Fatty's and tolerance and peace, will one day prevail.









steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:46am PT
I hope the SOB dies a VERY slow death. Even if he gets life, somebody will probably get to him. This is so tragic. Poor kids.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:48am PT
Andersen said the suspect posted on websites with Christian fundamentalist tendencies.


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:52am PT
"A common topic of coversation in Norway is that this person will be convicted to the harshest penalty that we can give him, which is 21 years in prison," Sandberg said. "That means he is out after 16 years. He might be out after 14 years. And then he will be a free man. And he killed so many. We don't have laws that could lay out a penalty for what he's done."

Wow....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:03am PT
Breivik was active on Internet forums, where he made anti-Islamic posts.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4181106.ece


He would have fit right in Fatrad's Clash of Civilizations threads.
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:03am PT
AFS,

I know who and they believe in Islam.


Don't worry Norway or America, Israel will protect you.

The evil one

You stupid fat piece of trash. It was your brethren who did this.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:06am PT
I'm just reading that the company Breivik formed to acquire the fertilizer (needed to make the bomb) was formed three years ago. They think he was planning the attack for at least that long.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4181455.ece
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:11am PT
I hope fatty leaves his post up as a reminder of the hazards of reactionary thinking.

NPR is saying 85 now! Man. Condolences all around.








Jul 22, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
AFS,

I know who and they believe in Islam.


Don't worry Norway or America, Israel will protect you.

The evil one




graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:22am PT
The New York Times is saying that 91 bodies have been found so far and they are still looking.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:32am PT
Thanks, Lolli.

The death toll is now at least 91.

There was and will be an event in Norway, titled Tenn et lys for de døde og skadde etter tragedien i Oslo og Utøya. ("Light a candle for the dead and injured after the tragedy in Oslo and Utøya.") A purely private thing. About 810,000 indicate that they will participate. 4:30 PM Friday (yesterday), and again at 11:30 PM on Wednesday. (Norway time, so maybe subtract ten hours for PDT?)
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/event.php?eid=244185822272540

(I saved a screen shot of the idiotic comments made earlier by certain ignoramuses.)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:35am PT
last night, just to see what the enemy is up to, I thought i'd tune into Sun Media, our Canadian version of Fox News. Sure enough, they were ranting at length about The massacre "possibly being" the result of Islamic extremists, even though by then there was ample evidence that was not the case. They would occasionally reference the fact that the perpetrator was blond and blue eyed then return to their analysis of Islamic extremism in Norway and the likelyhood of Canada seeing a similar Islamic attack.

Yadda yadda... not once did they mention, as other networks were noting, that the blond whitey was a right winger and christian evangelist. Rather sick of them to co-opt this tragedy to further their agenda.

My profound condolences to those effected
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:45am PT
" Well I'll tell ya, Riley Wyna, you are just throwing gas on the fire and that display of ignorance bothers me, too."

Explain?

I love how americans need simple analogies to understand complex situations...
Errr, duhhh, it is probably Errr, duhhh norway's Oklahoma city....deeerre, duhhh, more
Dan Duh world trade centers.... Ya ya ya....dats it....deerrhh

No, it is neither you retarded ass hats.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:52am PT
Ease up there Riley. This is tragedy. I don't understand why it can't be compared to our Oklahoma city. Can you explain this?
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
Children where also killed in the Oklahoma bombing. I bet their parents understand a lot about what is going on in Norway.

It is extremely horrible and... I bet laws will change in Norway in order to persecute this guy properly.

Beyond that... The loss of a child in such a way... Oh, I can't imagine the pain.

My deepest condolences...
AFS
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903461104576463850667976830.html
Good article....


John:
I much more prefer the comparison of the little known 1124 mass killing in the tribal area of Bobookipa. It seems a religious fundamentalist named Iamaamrnndodo, of the Sabotoorooerow Tree faith, had grown upset with the percieved encroachment of believers of the neighboring Frog faith. This produced some friction which escalated to xenophobia, hate and then, as with all religion, even in this time, a complete psychotic break from reality.

Iamaamrnndodo then loaded up 300 poison darts made from ironically the Frog god's tribal frog. ( I know ya can't make this sh#t up) He then disguised himself as a hamster and single handedly killed 300 Frog God members at there annual monkey brain feast.
Local tribe members couldn't remember anything so awful. But some tried to compare it to a previous tragedy where a man had dressed up as a Mango tree and killed 100 people. This man had belonged to the kingdom of the mango faith and felt that the eating of mangos was preventing the return of the one great Mango and the arrival of the eternal Mango kingdom.
Intellegent elders however disagreed. And stated there is no sense or reason to be found in these things. Our simple minds, beliefs and prejudiced teachings are what caused these things in the first place and they decided to not make matters worse with shallow comparisons. "We must do a better job educating our people againat the evils of superstitious jibberish," was their final decree.
One particularly wise elder was heard to say, Baba ooh ejjs ughh ahah behi," which translated loosely means " Dude, I am so sick of all these religious fruit cakes"
All agreed that this seemed to sum up the problem perfectly.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
What a truly horrible thing to happen. Condolences to all who have friends, family who are struck by this tragedy.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
I was thinking of a life sentence. Torture is not my thing though he does inspire me. I do believe that some people should never be released and... I really don't think he deserves to be in a mental institution since he knew perfectly well what he was doing. I think having him around people that are truly mentally ill... Well, I bet he'll enjoy torturing his weaker fellow inmates and sweet talk out of being caught. Plus insanity is too kind a word for his kind of evil.

I would prefer him to be with rapist and murderers. They can handle him. Plus remember that he's smart, don't ever underestimate his power over others. He'll always be very dangerous.

AFS
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
Well said Lolli & thank you.
My heart goes out to everyone.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
I'm not a religious man, but my thoughts go out to all those involved, their families, and the people of Norway. That one sadistic mofo can create all this tragedy, knows it, and still carries it out deeply saddens me.

I wonder, was it a chemical imbalance that pushed him over the edge, or perhaps the constant bombardment of information from the internet and cable media that crumpled an already weak and evil mind?

I'm sorry to hear of this, and fatty can go and suck a dick, trying to tie his personal thoughts into this. Shame On You.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
I wonder, was it a chemical imbalance that pushed him over the edge, or perhaps the constant bombardment of information from the internet and cable media that crumpled an already weak and evil mind?

It's hard to tell. I do know that in the case of Hitler it was the cable news channels that sent him over the edge.

I remember the quote quite clearly. "That Greata bitch isn't even German."


Skip
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
Skip, your flippant response is just dumb.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
I was surprised by the post that said maximum penalty was 21 years, with parole after 16.
According to Wikipedia (hey it's how I do US legal research sometimes, albeit with verification), that's not quite right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway

He may spend life in prison regardless of any finding of insanity, as long as he's found to be a danger to society.

Even so, I would imagine many of the survivors may be disturbed to know that this guy could get of prison while he's still fairly young, at least I think that's how most Americans would feel. Sometimes being "nice" to criminals isn't so nice to their victims.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
Skip, your flippant response is just dumb.

Dumb is claiming that there was a pushing over the edge at all.

You don't know this. Asking us to speculate and make excuses for this guy is a waste of time.


Skip
jamatt

Social climber
Asheville, NC
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
judging from how well we're all getting along when discussing this tragedy:

Credit: Walt Kelly
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
We have met the enemy and he is us.

Yes, we have more genius in our midst.

We now understand quite clearly that it isn't a chemical imbalance. It isn't cable news.

It is all those people not getting along on SuperTopo who are responsible for the mass killings in Norway.


Skip
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
Seriously Skip, you're just being crass. I wasn't asking for input, merely stating a thought.

OK? Let it go.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
Seriously,

I was just giving an opinion of what I thought all this nonsense really means.

OK? Let it go.


Skip
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
Bruce Kay, etal.- "says that he was a...christian evangelist."

Regarding being a Christian the Bible states:

"You shall know them by their fruits."

Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't mean they are one. In his case he is far from it(obviously). You guys are about as rotted and dispicably ignorant as is capable. You obviously know nothing of the Christs teachings, let alone Him personally or His followers in general.

And where does it say he was an Evangelist(site your source)? Billy Graham was/is a Fundamentalist Christian Evangelist. His fruits are evident, they don't include killing anyone let alone innocent children!!

Continue on with the insipid(vapid)remarks, conjectures, lies and outright persecution & hate...!!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
What does my nonsense mean?

Tell me what I think.

:)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
hey there say, all....

this was too sad, to read about... but a friend shared a lot of details, so i am here to offer condolences to norway, and the loved ones of these young children and all...

:(
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
"It's hard to tell. I do know that in the case of Hitler it was the cable news channels that sent him over the eDge"

Hitler was the original Fox news...
He handed out free radios to everyone.
Hia propaganda minister understood that giving them away, especially to the poor and uneducated who couldn't afford them, was the key to controlling and brain-washing never before seen on the earth.
After that it is easy- just add equal parts fear and what ever lie you want to perpetrate....and repeat..and repeat..and repeat, until most can't tell the difference..
The Father-land of Fox news...
A society under stress, any society, will be owned, from what I have observed concerning American politics and 911, in the low 90 percent after just a few weeks of this.
So....the cartoon is correct....it is .....us...
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
Wow, it sounds like wynA's got that whole being a blind spokesman for the government in power thingy all figure out.

That is really extra cool. The mind of a steal trap and lucky for the rest of us we get to see it in all it's glory.

Unfortunately, too bad for him that he missed the part about how it is Fox News standing up to the people in power.... Not, the other way around. (Steal trap. Chuckle, chuckle...)

Dude, non of this has anything to do with Fox News, chemical imbalances, the people here on the taco, or anything else.

This appears to be the act of a mad man. And, they ought to put him in the center of town, hang him. And, let all the people of the world watch as he twists and jerks...


Skip
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
All of Scandinavia must be in shock. Sure the cartoons Lolli sends us make fun of rivalries but they are indeed close neighbors. I've worked for a Danish company. I've travelled in Norway and Sweden, I've never felt safer. Police appear professional and are respectful and helpful. The populace also appear to strongly believe in our common humanity, the Danes I worked with, certainly. I have in-law family in Sweden. This must be terribly unnerving.
My heart goes out to all the wonderful Scandinavian people. They are tough and resilient. I don't think this will significantly alter their outlook and way of life. I certainly hope not.

Lolli.....well said
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
Please take your twisted longing for violence to some other thread.
It's the love of violence and blodshed and hatred which caused this tragedy. We don't need more of it.


You can want this to be true. But, it isn't. Any feelings that I or anyone else may have isn't the source of Norway's problems. They have many and it is time they got along to fixing them and quit blaming everybody else that had nothing to do with it.

In other words, you should start here: Find real justice for the innocent victims. If this guy really is the guy, then hang this guy. And then feed his entrails to the fish.

Let the people of the world know that Norway always stands firm with the innocent. And will do any and all things to protect and find them justice.


Skip
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
Vengeance is mine saith the Lord
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
It is always better to implement Justice. Just so people do not partake in Vengeance.

BTW, When did you become a Christian?


Skip
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
One doesn't have to be a Christian to know what Jesus taught.

I agree that Justice must be brought. What is the justice for a hate monger like Jeff?

thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
I think we all need to get a handle on this, and simply morn for the unfathonable horror and sense of loss that has descended upon Norway. Ninty-two human beings, so far eighty-five who are children or barely qualify as young adults are gone from our midst. I can't imagine what their familys are thinking and feeling right now. Their last moments with them, what they said to each other, the deception which culminated in their terror filled final moments, and in some case whether or not they are amongst the dead(they are still identifying them).

This is an international tragedy, the result of a senseless act that could occur anywhere. And finally, God is grieving for them & humanity in general, much deeper than anyone could fathom.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
While we're at it, let's back off on Jeff. He's as entitled to his opinions as any of us. When we start fighting among ourselves the terrorists score a point or two. Seeding fear and dissension is one of their goals.
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
^^^^^1+
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
While we're at it, let's back off on Jeff. He's as entitled to his opinions as any of us. When we start fighting among ourselves the terrorists score a point or two. Seeding fear and dissension is one of their goals.

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men do nothing. If Jeff is good, then he can apologize. Why is Jeff entitled to speak his mind, but those of us who disagree with him shouldn't?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
We should certainly call out people who speak nonsense, as I did in my post on page 1. We can do it respectfully without devolving into schoolyard name calling and bullying. The truth will set you free....or something like. And soon enough the full truth of this tragedy will out. The speciousness of Jeff's original post has already become apparent, it speaks for itself. Leave it be.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
Tha dood, you are taking my statement out of context. I was pointing out how certain observations as to the perpetrators religious affiliation was ignored by Sun Media / Fox North for the purpose of perpetuating their agenda of Islam bashing. I made no personal statement either favoring or disfavoring his religious standing.

not once did they mention, as other networks were noting, that the blond whitey was a right winger and christian evangelist

furthermore, I have many friends who are christian, and i have a great deal of respect for how they conduct themselves. Perhaps you are suggesting that I insinuated fault in the conduct of "christian Evangelists" and to be fair I may be mistaking "Evangelist" for "Fundamentalist". I'm not sure if there is a huge difference or not but one or the other was stated by a number of news media networks. Anyway, Those i find fault with, and i state as such, were the right wing propagandists Sun Media masquerading as purveyors of the News.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:35pm PT
There is a very real measure we can use.

Jeff has never threatened violence to anyone here on this forum.

And, that is a lot more than I can say about others.

Good luck barking up this tree.


Skip
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
Skip.. I apologized to you. Thats all I'm going to do. If you want to defend Jeff's actions, then go for it. But most of us recognize how thoughtless he was, and that he has a penchant for trying to start trouble. One doesn't have to resort to physical violence to behave inappropriately.

I don't think much of your so called Christianity either. Revelations has multiple stories about Christians like you.
jghedge

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
"AFS,"

"I know who and they believe in Islam."

"Don't worry Norway or America, Israel will protect you."

Please ban this idiotic, half-witted child from this site immediately

Enough is enough already

The ignorant fool can go spew his hateful, idiotic delusions someplace else
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 23, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
Bruce Kay, I reread your post and see what you are saying. Sorry about the missenterpretation of what you were relating it to.

As far as the news agencys go, they were saying that he was a fundamenatalist Christian of some sort(he isn't). That term(by some people here and abroad)is more related to ones political supremicist racial leanings rather than who they worship as God. Many in this so-called 'Christian nation' claim faith but have not been converted. What was his definition of a fundamentalist Christian? I guarntee you it would have been/is far from what the Bible describes as the fundamental doctrine and beliefs. His actions speak for themselves.

I just want to reiterate what i said about those that claim some form of Christianity, and are such in name only. I could start a harem of 20-30++ women and call myself a Christian fundamentalist, blah, blah... Some racist skinheads claim they are Christians and worship Hitler. They are seperatist and white racist. believe in some aryan supremacy. Non of that is in the Bible. They hate Jews, Jesus was a Jew. They hate blacks, Simon(the man who carried Jesus cross)was/became a Christian and was black(as was MLK, etc,). They beat and kill...well I am sure you have heard of them. I don't know much about this character from Norway but he related to some form of political/national identity which had nothing to do with Christ or the Bible.

As far as Revelation goes, it speaks of these false Christians/churches, as does Jesus in the Gospels, and the Apostles elsewhere. It is a sign of the times, and most likely what the enemy will/is using to bring persecution against the true Church/Beleavers.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
I also apologize for all of the American dipsh1ts that bring their thoughtless drivel to this thread,

To think that the people of Norway care what a group of rambunctious climbers think is a bit odd. To think you can apologize for them is even odder.

To say the least.

Fattrad told a joke. No more. No less. I for one thought it was hella funny. Because only an utter whack job would take "Don't worry, Israel is here to help you" as a political statement.

"The Clique is circling... The sharks are out in force. And, we have Mr. E falling out of the boat because he is pissed that the railing isn't high enough for him"


Skip
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
Jeff is "The evil one"
so it makes sense that he would be evil
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
I know who and they believe in Islam.

This isn't a joke. It an attempt to foster hatred and fear and rally people to his clash. Its ugly.
jghedge

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
"Fattrad told a joke. No more. No less. I for one thought it was hella funny."

Another sick, ignorant half-wit that needs to be shown the door

Like I said - enough is enough already
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
Another tragic Right Winger gone mad, and wanted to kill socialists, intellectuals and Muslims.
Right Wingers just hate those people.


Anders Behring Breivik: Oslo, Norway Bombing 'Necessary'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/23/anders-behring-breivik-oslo-bombing_n_907880.html

OSLO, July 23 (Reuters) - A suspected right-wing fanatic accused of killing at least 92 people deemed his acts "atrocious" yet "necessary" as Norway mourned victims of the nation's worst attacks since World War Two.

"He has said that he believed the actions were atrocious, but that in his head they were necessary," lawyer Geir Lippestad told independent TV2 news.

Police said Breivik gave himself up after admitting to a massacre in which at least 85 people died, mostly young people attending a summer camp of the youth wing of Norway's ruling Labour Party on an idyllic island.

Breivik was also arrested for the bombing of Oslo's government district that killed seven people hours earlier. Norway's toughest sentence is 21 years in jail.

Breivik hated "cultural marxists," wanted a "crusade" against the spread of Islam and liked guns and weightlifting, web postings, acquaintances and officials said.

A video posted to the YouTube website showed several pictures of Breivik, including one of him in a Navy Seal type scuba diving outfit pointing an automatic weapon.

"Before we can start our crusade we must do our duty by decimating cultural marxism," said a caption under the video called "Knights Templar 2083" on the YouTube website, which took down the video on Saturday.

A Norwegian website provided a link to a 1,500 page electronic manifesto which says Breivik was the author. It was not possible to verify who posted the video or wrote the book.

"Once you decide to strike, it is better to kill too many than not enough, or you risk reducing the desired ideological impact of the strike," the book said.

Norway has traditionally been open to immigration, which has been criticized by the Progress Party, of which Breivik was for a short time a member. The Labour Party, whose youth camp Breivik attacked, has long been in favor of immigration.

Police took almost 1.5 hours to stop the massacre, the worst by a single gunman in modern times. "The response time from when we got the message was quick. There were problems with transport out to the island," he said, defending the delay.

Witnesses said the gunman, wearing a police uniform, was able to shoot unchallenged for a prolonged period. He picked off his victims on Utoeya island northwest of Oslo forcing youngsters to scatter in panic or to jump into the lake to swim for the mainland.


The bloodbath was believed to be the deadliest attack by a lone gunman anywhere in modern times.

The suspect, tall and blond, owned an organic farming company called Breivik Geofarm, which a supply firm said he had used to buy fertilizer -- possibly to make the Oslo bomb.

Home-grown right wing anti-government militants have struck elsewhere in the past, notably in the United States, where Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people with a truck bomb in Oklahoma City in 1995.

thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
I can't speak for him, but he should have 1). not jumped to conclusions 2). and(in the least)said "a form of radical Islam". But shouldn't have said anything(obviously)until he heard the facts. Just for the record, there are many Christian Palestinians. They are not all Muslim.

Anyway, he can speak for himself.

I personally have a few very good Muslim friends that i use to work with. Very dedicated workers. Got me out of jams on several occasions. To me they are no different than my Mormon, Jewish, Jehovah Witness, Agnostic or Atheist friends. Just friends. Good people. Have a belief different than me, but I love them for who they are. They seem to have the same feelings/respect for me. Muslims are very good people(ones I know)love to share meals and family gatherings with whomever. From what i have heard from various people who have been abroad, they have for the most part said the same thing about the common people there. People are people whereever you go. It is the governments(in some cases such as Iran)that are the lame ones.

This is turning into another rant so I will stop here.

Ciao...
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:00pm PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
The vigil Tenn et lys for de døde og skadde etter tragedien i Oslo og Utøya (Light a candle for the dead and injured after the tragedy in Oslo and Utøya), a world-wide memorial, will now be on Saturday July 31st at 11:30 PM. (Presumably Norwegian time, which translates into 1:30 PM PDT.) It seems to have been postponed.

There is nothing formal about it - simply light a candle, and think of those who died.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/event.php?eid=244185822272540

There will a vigil at the Scandinavian Centre in Burnaby tomorrow, July 24th. 6540 Thomas Street, any time from 12:30 on. There will be a book of condolences, which I imagine will be given ambassador Eikenberg to forward to Norway.

Perhaps other events are planned - I've been away all day, and so may be behind the times.

As the saying goes, better to light one candle, than curse the darkness. There are too many here who seem to want to blindly answer ignorance with ignorance, violence with violence, anger with anger, and hatred with hatred.
jghedge

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20082587-503543.html

"Foreign Policy's Blake Hounshell claims to have read the entire manifesto, and in an article writes that the manifesto is "Filled with hateful rantings against Muslims -- whom the author claims are on a trajectory to take over Europe and erase its culture patrimony."

"In all, the various online traces of thought left behind by Breivick before his alleged slaughter paint the portrait of a deeply paranoid man driven by conspiracy theories about the downfall of Western civilization."

Sound familiar, Fattard?

What need is there for this kind of paranoid delusion on this site?

skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 05:38am PT
I want him in a mental ward, because I want them to make him feel empathy. No pills, only therapy. I want him to wake up sweaty and screaming from nightmares of what he did, each and every bloody night for the rest of his life. I don't want him dead. I want him to suffer from within.

"I want him in a mental ward." "I want him to wake up..." I want to make him ..." I don't want him dead" I want him ..."

Or, to put it another way: "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" want my own personal revenge .... But, I digress....

You don't want revenge but rather you want him to suffer for what he did? Really?

You arbitrarily declare the man mentally insane and yet you think compassion and non violence is what you are partaking in by making him suffer? Really?

Did the thought ever occur to you that if someone is mentally ill it kind of makes it hard to declare them responsible for their actions?

And, did you ever stop to think that you may have your work cut out for you when you take on the job of demanding someone who willingly kills dozens of innocent children ... feel "empathy" as your form of justice?

Let me say it again. Start by understanding that you aren't the victim but rather the people of Norway are responsible now for carrying out justice in the name of the victims. It isn't about you. It is about them.

That Norway will stand with the victims and will bring Civil justice to the perp and not carry out yours or anyone's own personal agenda.

Give the man a fair trial. But, if he is found Guilty then take him to the center of town. Hang him. And, then feed him to the fishes.

Or, if that isn't of your liking we have ways of putting down vicious dogs here in this country. It is done quite often. We even have a name for the people who do it.

We call them: "The Humane Society."


Skip
jghedge

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 06:26am PT
"Did the thought ever occur to you that if someone is mentally ill it kind of makes it hard to declare them responsible for their actions?"

Except he seems not to be mentally ill. He seems rational. Carrying out criminal acts does not automatically qualify one for being mentally ill.

You and your ideological counterparts will do your pathetic best to try to weasel out of the obvious parallels between his stated ideology and yours. It won't work. His online manifesto pretty closely adheres to right-wing extremist dogma, and contains the exact same paranoid, idiotic maundering about "Marxism" and Islam you and Fattard display in your posts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8657473/Norway-killings-Breivik-posted-hate-filled-video-on-YouTube-hours-before-attacks.html

“The first drop of rain marks the coming of a great and unstoppable cultural conservative tidal wave. The tidal wave will cleanse Western Europe of cultural Marxism and will result in the banishment of Islam for the third time."

“The European tree of liberty will be refreshed by the blood of our patriots and of the Marxist tyrrants. This civil war will last several decades but we will succeed."

“Never forget that we fight so that you and your children can remain free. For a future Europe safe from the tyrany of cultural-Marxism and of Islam. A Europe worth dying for.”

Sound familiar?





skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 06:41am PT
Except he seems not to be mentally ill. He seems rational. Carrying out criminal acts does not automatically qualify one for being mentally ill.

Dude,

Get a clue.

I am not the one who is claiming he is fodder for a mental ward.

I am the one calling for a fair trial and letting the people of Norway decide what to do and what is justice.

Personally, I think the man is worthy of a death penalty. But, I understand quite clearly that I am not a citizen there. I have no say. I am only commenting on an open forum here in the United States.

Once again, I am not the one who is calling for a sane man to be placed in a mental facility. That would be the people who call for a form of torture as his punishment and mistakenly claim they don't want personal revenge and are opposed to violence.


Skip

“Never forget that we fight so that you and your children can remain free. For a future Europe safe from the tyrany of cultural-Marxism and of Islam. A Europe worth dying for.”

Sound familiar?


When a GED student thinks they are not making a serious logical error with what you spew ... it is time to back off and go to night school.
jghedge

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 06:54am PT
"I am not the one who is claiming he is fodder for a mental ward."

I've never encountered anyone online who is as confused by his own posts as you are.

You literally seem not to understand what you're writing.

Which, in a way, makes sense - because none of us do either.
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Jul 24, 2011 - 06:57am PT
The political "spectrum" is warped into a circle, the extremist on the right are joined with the extremist on the left and where they meet is insanity. Their world is black and white with no shades of grey. There is no light in their blindness. What a sad and tragic event, indeed we should all light a candle to remind us we can keep the darkness away.
jghedge

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 07:09am PT
"You know you have entered "La la land.""

Read what he wrote

Read what you write

It's the same pathetic, paranoid gibberish about "Marxism" you post on an hourly basis





Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 09:53am PT
Thanks, Lolli.

It is a waste of time to discuss capital punishment - Norway's principles are stronger than that. They made an exception with Quisling and about ten others who were guilty of high treason during World War II, and it is still quite controversial.

Whether the murderer was insane in the legal sense remains to be seen. He was clearly a sociopath. He seems to have been able to think logically, and plan what he did, including the timing, and weapons and explosives. To the point not of attacking say Muslims, the easy tactic, but to attack those who eventually would have been the people who would be in charge of the party controlling the government which allowed and continued to allow Muslims and other "foreigners" to enter Norway.

And yes, the far left and the far right meet somewhere, and there's little to distinguish between their pathologies.

Norwegian police have now arrested six others, but there's no information as to what if any connection they had to the murderer. My guess is that the police want to know what they knew about the murderer, and/or that they're involved in simiilar groups. Indeed, anyone involved in such groups in Scandinavia can probably expect a visit from the police in the near future. Extreme right-wing, neo-Nazis, xenophobic, and the like. Those who operate the forums which such persons post to, also. (The murderer had often posted to fundamentalist Christian websites, which is suggestive if not conclusive - most hard right-wingers probably think of themselves as "Christian", although they're anything but.)

I suspect that Norway will also change its gun laws, to prohibit the public from owning automatic weapons. I was very surprised to hear that it is allowed - there is no legitimate reason for any citizen to have such a weapon.

The death toll stands at 92.

jedge, skipt et al: Please don't import US 'values' and beliefs into the discussion, or impose your ideology. It's out of place.
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 24, 2011 - 10:00am PT
I was completely wrong, a right wing whacko.



The evil one
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 24, 2011 - 10:26am PT
Det var snilt av Fattrad.
Good on you Fattie.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 24, 2011 - 10:41am PT
I am sorry Lolli and Reilly. But he didn't apologize for his racist comment and for jumping to conclusions. Conclusions meant to incite hatred for Islam. After all Jeff has written about Islam, that small statement isn't enough. If it had been an Islamic extremist, then he would have gloated for weeks and months and done nothing but blame Islam for destroying this world. Yet when it turns out to be someone with right wing ideologies, does he blame right wing ideology? No.. he calls him a whacko.

He is quick to blame Islam for whackos who say they follow it, but he does not blame the right wing for the whackos who profess that philosophy. It is a double standard and it is wrong.

Plus he doesn't say he is sorry for saying what he said. Just that he is wrong. He most definitely would have gloated if he had turned out to be correct. Then gone on to blame Islam for the worlds current troubles.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:01am PT
Prime Minister Stoltenberg: "I have a message to the person who attacked us and the people who are behind it: You're not going to destroy us. You're not destroying our democracy and our work for a better world. We're a small country but a very proud country. No one can bomb us to be quiet. No one can shoot us to be quiet. No one can ever scare us from being Norway."

Said Friday, before there was much information on the attacks or their cause.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 11:02am PT
Hey everyone,

Dang it, we need to stop the cycle. When someone says they are wrong, that should be good enough. When it isn't... Well, what do you want us to do... "Hate?" I don't think promoting hate is ever good. We all do massive stupid stuff. We need to get over it in order to get to the good stuff.

I'll save my hate for this killer of the children. He has earned it...

Anastasia
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:16am PT
Fatty - at least you had the balls to chime back in and admit it. Some don't.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:17am PT
Here here.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:28am PT
Thats it? He doesn't apologize and you accept what he says? Mercy.. no wonder this world is messed up. No accountability for ones actions. He is the one preaching hate of Muslims and Islam. Just look at his clash of civilizations threads. Multiple thread after thread. I don't hate Jeff. I want him held accountable for his actions. Admitting he was wrong is a start, but after all that he has said about Islam, admitting he made a mistake is not nearly enough. He needs to apologize for being quick to judge.

He will go on to preach hate towards Muslims because people turn a blind eye, and then there really will be a clash of civilizations. Thats what he and his friends want.

Have at it then, but you are making a mistake if you accept that piddly answer from him.


Are you now going to say I am preaching hate against you for making a mistake?

skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:34am PT
if it wasn't obvious that it was my anger speaking of what I would have liked done with that man, I say it now. It doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I can make a difference between those two things.


Loli,

The above and other things you wrote in your last post were excellent. It isn't wrong to want other people to pay dearly for what they have done. That is an understandable human trait.

But, rather as you point out so well, we learn to put that behind us so it doesn't get in the way. And, most importantly, so we can let the rule of law play itself out.

There is no difference in these desires between the Left and the Right. And while I cannot speak for extremist on either side, I am highly confident that this is what most people in Norway, and here, and all around the world for that matter, really want most.

And, with that I say bravo. Thank you for your sober and clear thoughts.


Skip

EDIT:

John,

You have threatened me with bodily violence on a number of occasions. Like the child throwing a temper tantrum you think it is worthy at the time you are doing it.

I can assure you it isn't. And, for those who think that violence is somehow pent up in the ideology of the right all you have to do is look at Moosie and see the world isn't quite that easy to peg.

The last time you threatened me was the last straw, John. I don't care about "your views of apologies." You are an odd duck who think you can apologize and then berate others with much lesser offenses.

He told a joke, John. An irreverent joke. I'll give you that. But pretty much in line with standard taco rowdiness.

Get a life little man.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:38am PT
John- you post up some good points.
You make me think of Murdoch's performance in front of British Parliament last week.
After wards the thousands of talking heads were blathering on as usual- most is them completely taken in by one of the most powerful, corrupt and manipulative men on the planet.
He sees most of us as absolute idiots....absolute idiots...
And he is correct in every way.
Like lambs to the slaughter.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 11:41am PT
John, Seriously... He said he was wrong! It might not be in the words you specifically wanted but it's an apology. Why do you so badly need him to be beaten down? It's scaring me.

Riley, I've met the guy in person. He is the first person here to donate to any of our causes. Plus, if I am ever broken down on the road. I hope it's Fatty that drives by because... I know he would stop and help get me back on the road. From your words, you don't know him. You are like the shooter, spewing hate for the love of it.

It's wrong damn it.

Anastasia




donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:43am PT
I can just imagine what this thread would be like if the perp were a bearded, swarthy Muslim instead of a blond with "chisled features."
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 11:45am PT
Yes Donini,

Plus we will be attacking each even more... We are such a fine bunch.

AFS
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
John, Seriously... He said he was wrong! It might not be in the words you specifically wanted but it's an apology. Why do you so badly need him to be beaten down? It's scaring me.

I'm sorry that you are frightened Anastasia. Perhaps you should read Jeff's clash of civilizations threads. Then you might be frightened of the wolf in sheeps clothing. Its easy to be friendly to people you like. Jeff says Dick Cheney is a "nice" guy. He gives to charity. Et cetera Et cetera. Should we then accept that Dick Cheney is a "nice" guy? I'm sorry, but Jeff can do all sorts of nice things, but his real heart is revealed on his Clash of civilizations threads.

But lets all just look away because that is too hard. Its hard to call someone out for the blackness in their hearts. Its much easier to let bygones be bygones while they continue to foster hatred of an entire society. Hatred of blacks didn't just go away. It just got smart and went underground. Ask any black person. The same is true of Muslims. Jeff preaches fear. Read his threads.

I'm not suggesting we banish Jeff. I'm suggesting that you look deeper and don't just accept his first answer.

You are a trusting and friendly person Anastasia, and you want to believe the best of everyone. I want to believe that also, but I am too aware of where evil lurks. I'm not saying that Jeff is evil. But I am saying that how he attacks the Muslim faith is wrong.

He owes more then a simple.. "I made a mistake".

I'm not asking you to stop being friendly. I'm asking you to be more discerning.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
I'm telling you, when john gets on his high horse he is a tough one to rein in....

He owes more then a simple.. "I made a mistake".

So, John. Are you willing to back up your words and let me decide what is a real apology when you threaten me repeatedly?

--

This is a rhetorical question. I know the answer.

I will not hijack this thread anymore.

John, I am done with you.


Skip

EDIT: I don't want to create another post to rebut what John is saying below. But, honestly, I have not a clue as to what he is talking about. I never made fun of him losing his house. That is not how I go about things.

He misunderstands what I say. Will not listen. And, flies off and threatens me repeatedly. Everything from pummeling me, to tattooing my face, throwing me in campfires, and on and on it goes.

For the record and some insight into how much John really cares about other people's lives. Here is a little of my own personal history that he doesn't seem to be too sensitive about: I got jumped. I got beaten. I woke up in a hospital room 2 months later. I know what it's like to have to learn how to walk again. Talk again. Use my hands so I could operate a simple knife and a fork. And, wonders of all wonders, learn to feed myself again. Yes, that is a big f*#king deal.

I went through 2 years of almost daily Gran Mal Seizures. Heavy duty. I lived in a lazy boy rocking chair for almost the entire time. And, while finally it is back under control with medication, (and lucky for me I am in some of the best shape and health I have been in years) I know what it took to get here. (Here is a hint: I absolutely LOVE my wife, I bless this woman. Without her it would NOT have happened.)

... I'm telling you this guy is so self absorbed he hasn't a clue to what he is saying. What his words really mean.

Let me repeat: This clown hasn't a clue to what the f*#k he is talking about.

Screw you, John.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
Sure Skip. I admit my apology was weak. I am still angry with you for making fun of me for losing my house. That was a very painful experience and to have you make fun of me for being sick and trying to do what I thought was right, was no fun. So just to be clear. I did not accept your apology for making fun of me. There was no heart in it.

Now we are on even footing. Would you like to continue?
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
Hate? What did I say that was hateful?
What is this "hate" kick some of you are on?
It is an interesting way to shut people up.
I was talking about Murdoch. I have long since stopped caring about Jeff's lies and manipulations
But since you brought it up.
Do you understand manipulation Anastasia?
I know fatty very, very well.
Because he visits people he doesn't know in the hospital and brags about some stupid donations he is a good guy?
Who cares.......
Jeff's lies and spew the last 10 years are exactly why a weak minded psychopath like this does what he does.
Politics matter!!
In fact they are everything and it is what causes wack jobs like this to go nuts.
Why is Jeff here? Do you "get" the politics he is promoting here?
He doesnt even climb!

Because Jeff made a personal connection with you you just over look it?
I guess my Daddy taught me about ass kissers - lazy social parasites..I guess I have always been aware of manipulation to the point I have to hold my nose when I meet some people.
If a stranger shows up in my private moment I consider it an intrusion and an insult. And I spend my life at the side of dying persons beds.
That is an unbelievably deep and personal thing.
Not hate it is just the facts..

We are all a bunch of dumb suckers....
Our sense of honesty and fairness is manipulated by people who could care less about honesty and fairness or justice.
You to Loli
Spewing a bunch of liberal jibberish
I want this and I want that for this psychopath.
He killed 92 children- Why do you care what he thinks, what he does and where he goes.
I don't want to hear about or think about this guy ever again.
Do any of you even comprehend the reality of just one child splattered on the pavement?
Have you every seen a dead child from trauma?
The unbelievable horror of all this?
Maybe if this psychopath apologizes folks will feel lwarm and fuzzy?
Maybe if folks wake up to the fact that evil and stupid people are at work in the world maybe we will have a chance
Until then we are just stupid, easily manipulated Sheeple.

But go ahead....attack people for being honest while it is actually you all who stick up for hate.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:29pm PT
FACT: IS THE FARMACY CLOSED TODAY OR SUMTHIN?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
There is no explaining this. A terrible tragedy. Horrible. I can't imagine how the families feel.

But who knows? After all, this is where the word "berserk" comes from.

I am glad Lolli and Anders have brought us up to speed on Norwegian law.
I am against capitol punishment as well (sends the wrong message, doesn't effectively deter, administered unequally, and gives an easy exit for the offender), and am glad Norway eschews it, but this miscreant phsycho needs to be locked away for good.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
Must be. Farmacy closed till business picks up.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Pharmacys are open on Sunday in America
What country you guys from?



http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=971832&msg=1560641#msg1560641



Norway, Welcome to "The Clash of Civilizations":

Seven people were killed in an explosion in downtown Oslo, Norway, on Friday, police said. Two people were severely injured, they said.

[Update: 1:46 p.m. ET, 7:46 p.m. Oslo] Fabian Stang, the mayor of Oslo, Norway told CNN that "this situation is under control, but it's been a terrible day."

"Today we think about the people in all other parts of the world who have been in the same situation," Stang said. "We are of course shocked."

He confirmed police reports that there was a bomb attack, but said they were unsure if it was a terror attack.
Bold Text
"It's a terrible situation" either way, he said.

Stang said he was also distraught about the shooting at the youth camp where young people had been killed.

"They are 16, 17 years old and they should not be treated like that," he said of some victims.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/22/blast-rips-through-norways-capital-injuries-reported/?iref=BN1&hpt=hp_t1

The evil one
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
I want to thank Lolli and Mighty Hiker, two of our resident Scandinavians for their clear, heartfelt and deeply moral posts. And I thank fattrad for his apology.

It always best to recognize our anger and then use our humanity and respect for the law to demand justice.
As Piton Ron said: capital punishment is not only immoral to many of us, it is outlawed in all but a very few industrialized nations. Most dramatically, the US, Japan, Singapore and China.
It's been shown conclusively by many studies that capital punishment is not a deterrent. Don't you think this monster (who is almost certainly sane by legal definition) would rather be executed and become a martyr? Norway will likely rethink their maximum detention laws, since there will always be a small number of incurable sociopaths who need to be locked away for the rest of their lives.

As of right now, 93 dead, 98 injured, an unstated number still missing.

dumb sucker is ok, but I do take offense to be called liberal
I am not that far to the right
Something to make me laugh out of all the nonsense.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
"Not a deterrent" is an odd way to put it.

I always thought it was stated that way to make a rhetorical argument. Not a factual one.

Because by definition it most certainly deters the murderer from committing any more killings in prison.


Skip
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
That so, Skip?
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
That so, Skip?

Ron,

Everyone can make mistakes. I as much as anyone else.

So, let's just see how far you can go with proving me wrong:

Feel free to post up links or anything else that can support your case that dead people commit murder in prison.

Because, that would honestly be a new one for me.

Post away. Show us how it's done.

:-)


Skip
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
How about you quit telling people how to go about what we should say and do.

Honestly, you need to take a chill pill. How about you quit making the debate all about what you want.

I posted something in fun back to Ron. That was my intention. That was all I did.

Get a grip.


Skip
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
It is natural to be angered by events such as those on Friday. They pass human understanding, and flout our sense of justice, fairness and decency. It is also natural to be angered by some of the posts here. Even if no one you know was directly affected, you want to respond. It's easy for such a response to be negative, or at least unconstructive.

I was out on Friday evening, and when I got home heard that over 90 were dead, and something about how it had happened. I'd planned to climb on Saturday, but was in no state to do so. Instead, I spent the day working off some energy and anger, on a graffiti-removal project at Squamish. Hard, dirty work, hanging on a rope. Something I've meant to do for a while. I had to carry about 30 litres of water, plus climbing gear, plus the Removall and stuff. 80 - 90% of the paint is gone, and after a second pass, 98+% will be. It will still be possible to see where it was - the solvents in the paint kill the underlying lichen, and so for a while there will be white instead of giant red letters. But I'll feather the edges, and try some other things to help it blend in. (Anyone know how to grow lichens, reasonably quickly?)

There's little I can do for the dead, or for Norway. (I'm a Canadian of Norwegian descent, but have spent time there at school, teaching climbing, climbing, visiting relatives, etc.) But I wanted to do something that was at least a little positive.

I'm afraid that I agree with Lolli - it doesn't seem that skipt has much to contribute here, if anything.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
It's funny.

We have a President who received the Nobel Peace prize and yet he had no problem shooting Bin Laden in the head.

I'm even pretty sure many here thought he was a great candidate for that prize.


Skip
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
Well, at least you practice what you preach Loli...
I'm impressed you didn't fall for it...
I wasnt expecting that...
We will see how others do..


A lot goes on on these threads..
Social manipulation is by far the easiest and most dangerous way that the truth is manipulated.
So easy....much easier than telling the truth...
Combine that with most human beings instinct to not want to know the truth or want to see the good, or that they are even afraid to see the bad and you have the recipe for why man is taken again and again by sociopaths
You really saw it in the Fukishima thread.
You can practically rape someone as long as you say please and thank you and throw in a humble sorry once in a while.
It is why we are doomed as a species.
Not that my words matter more than anybody elses...
I'm an idiot also...but at least I know it...
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
Anders and Lolli,

I admire your responses and how you are both sensitive and productive about this tragedy. We all should be mourning this loss and exist beyond the pettiness of others. Me, myself and I am still too immature to pull that off, but heck, I'm trying.

We should be focusing on how to help Norway. I have no idea how, maybe we should send a joint letter of condolences to one of the climbing clubs, etc? I don't know... All I know is that Norway is a tight community and this must be extremely painful for all of them.

Anastasia
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
Prime Minister Stoltenberg, at a service in Oslo cathedral today (translated):

“You should know that we’re crying with you. We feel for you… I am proud of living in a country that has managed to stand up on its feet in such a critical time… We are still horrified over what happened. But we will never give up our values.”

Mr. Stoltenberg repeated his call to defy the terrorist’s anti-immigration and anti-multiculturalism rage by reinforcing those very values: “Our answer is more democracy, more openness, and more humanity - - but never naivety,” he told the congregation.


We are going to show up as the Norway you know,” said foreign minister Jonas Gahr Støre. “We are not going to close off our streets, we are not going to lock up our kids, we are going to stick to our democratic values."

"Police and politicians vowed to investigate a movement whose supporters range from authors of popular books on “Eurabia” and “the Muslim tide” to more violent figures like Mr. Brievik who also appear to have ties to little-known extreme-right groups. At the same time, officials vowed not to let this investigation interfere with Norway’s legendary openness."

There were two more police raids in Oslo today, but no word on arrests. The police are also investigating links with racist groups elsewhere in Europe.

Breivik apparently agrees that he did what he did, but denies criminal responsibility. He will be formally charged on Monday. It sounds like he wants a platform from which to further promote his evil, but that shouldn't get far in a well-managed trial.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/a-nation-in-mourning-defies-gunman-special-bullets-used-in-shooting-spree/article2107826/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
There will be a national minute of silence in Norway at noon on Monday July 25th, in memory of the dead. The king and prime minister will attend, and a book of condolences will be placed at the University of Oslo. Sweden will also participate in the moment of silence.

There will also be an official online condolence site - will post details when I find them.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4182655.ece
QITNL

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
I'd also like to thank Anders and Lolli for their informed and compassionate messages.

Here is another good up-to-date source of information:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/jul/24/norway-attacks-live-updates
weschrist

Gym climber
left sac
Jul 24, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
I'm afraid that I agree with Lolli - it doesn't seem that skipt has much to contribute here, if anything.

He never does.

The attacker believes he was justified:
He has admitted to the facts of both the bombing and the shooting, although he's not admitting criminal guilt.

The attacker believes in wild fantasies:
The manifesto posted by Breivik, a self-styled founder member of a modern Knights Templar organization, hints at a wider conspiracy of self-appointed crusaders and shows a mind influenced by the fantasy imagery of online gaming.

All the more reason people who take their fantasies (religions) seriously and consider their delusions more valid than anyone else's scare the sh#t out of me.

I wish I could contact my old Norwegian house mate and express my condolences. Tragic.



Aside:
Anyone know how to grow lichens, reasonably quickly?

(Mighty Hiker... my gf knows a thing or two about growing lichen (MS in using non-vascular "plants" for restoration). From what I have gleaned, lichen is actually a symbiotic arrangement between fungus and algae. It often reproduces by fragmentation... which is why I don't feel too bad about my boulder lichen scraping orgies. I'm guessing she would recommend mixing some lightly ground lichen with water to form a paste and slapping that on the rock. Worth a shot? It usually takes a while to come back around Tahoe, but BC might be an entirely different story. I'm sure she would be interested in the success or failure of whatever you end up trying. If you want more info I will probe her for you.)
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
Yes,

I don't add anything to any thread.

But, lucky for me it wasn't required in the EULA when I signed up.

Once again, "Good luck to the good people of Norway."


Skip
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
Likely not dum dums (see my thread on the .303).

My guess; Glaser safety slugs.
Bullets filled with suspended shot that dumps its energy quickly causing remarkable tissue disruption.

To say that even the military doesn't use them is disingenuous.
The new unleaded "green" round that the military is moving to does a similar dump with likewise efficacy.
shady

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
Lolli:

About the insanity thing. I worked for over a decade in a psych hospital. Even though I was in the maintenance department, I learned a few things.
If this guy is indeed insane, he will never feel remorse for his deeds.
His brain construction was made without the capacity for what we call, morality, empathy or compassion.
This is why we have the ruling, "not guilty through reason of insanity." This doesn't mean he didn't do it, but more, he did do it, but he doesn't have the capacity to understand what he did was wrong, and therefore is a true threat to society, And in this case he would spend the rest of his life incarcerated.

Regardless of his sanity, he should never breath the sweet air of freedom ever again.

Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
Grrr... He doesn't deserve to be heard. I don't think "anything" he wants should be considered. His wishes and desires are "freedoms." Freedoms that should be forever denied to him for the rest of his life. Please... Someone lock him up into a solitary room where he will never have human contact again and... Throw away the key.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 24, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
Edit: Ron how are they different from hollow point

They are called hollow point or expanding bullets Loli.
I've seen dozens of wounds made by these bullets.
On one side you have a small bullet hole and on the other side when it comes out you have a huge hole.
In an area like the knee the bullet hole can be the size if a nickel and expand enough in the time it is in the knee or leg to be as big as a dvd disc or small plate on the other side.

Good in Norway for shutting the doors.
Canada is very, very good at this and it protects the case and jury pool in less complex cases. It is nobodies business but the courts the victims and the jury.
This sensationalism and sick preoccupation with murder trials that we have in America- turning it into a media and entertainment event- it is the greatest perversion of all.
weschrist

Gym climber
left sac
Jul 24, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
100% guilty = 100% disregard that that fukhead's desires.

Send him to Gitmo to help refine the next generation of torture techniques.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 05:20pm PT
Riley,
first post (but the 19th still cracks me up);

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1463876/303
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 24, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
Mr. E,

I really don't care if you want me around.

I am not here for you.

It isn't your say. That job is given to someone else. They call him the owner. And, unlike you I respect his say. If he wants me to go, I would never fight it. Such is life.

But, try not to make yourself king when you aren't.

It's kind of insensitive.


Skip
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jul 24, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
Yes Riley,
The extra heinous Canadian cases are conducted with overbearing discretion concerning public interest. This is to keep the facts untainted but can lead to a perception that the victims of these crimes are being left out in the cold.

The basis from where this misunderstanding comes from is the Crown (The State)pursues punishment of a crime independent of the wishes of either the agrieved or the charged. The weight of the state has no problem going after criminals but don't expect the prosecutor to give the victim an easy ride either.

Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
I can't help but think of Richard Ramirez, a.k.a. The Night Stalker, serial killer, a man that "enjoyed killing..." I can't help remember that during his trial he had developed a "fan club." Oh, I can't express how much that disturbed me! Especially hearing how the women were so captivated by his good looks, etc. etc. I was just a child during that trial and even I understood how horrific all of it was.

Any form of attention to killers should be illegal.

How can anyone "like" someone who had committed the most terrible deeds? All I can say is I hope he is not allowed an audience. There are some very sick people who will be attracted to the murders, to him, etc.

AFS
jstan

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
Around 1790 Parisian mobs were quite rightfully angry at their mistreatment, they cut off a few heads, and millions died in the Napoleonic wars.

In the 1930's the Germans were very angry over the terms of the treaty ending WWI, they formed lynch mobs that beat up people on the street, and even more millions of people died.

Here on ST we have angry people. What have we learned that convinces us our judgment is better?

Events such as this should unify and drive us to do better.

Just the opposite has been accomplished.

The anger is multiplied.

Only a matter of time till the critical threshold is reached.

Only a matter of time.



Can we not find a better method of population control?
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
jstan,

I don't get it either. All I can figure out is that people must really love to hate. They love to judge, feel the rush of "righteous anger." They are made powerful by their convictions without care or empathy. They never bother taking the time to consider the truth behind it all, the other side of the story, etc.

I also know people say the worst things behind people's back and on the internet when they don't need to face their victims.

Heck, I know tons of people that have spoken bad things about me without ever speaking ever to me about it. It's as if they love the story so much they don't want it shaken, changed, ever exposed to the light.

It's chicken sh#t.

One day someone is going to murder another for the wrong reasons and... In many ways we've allowed it to happen.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
It makes them feel better about their own lives.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 24, 2011 - 07:55pm PT
Another nice and interesting thread Ruined By Skip
Another Right Wing Extremist Being the Apologist for heinous Right Wing Extremist behavior
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
My father is flying his Norwegian flag over his house, which is a nice touch.

It seems likely that the Norwegian legal system will be well-prepared for events tomorrow, to prevent the court appearance from becoming a circus, or providing the murderer with a platform to spew his evil.

The murders of the children took place on Utøya (="Out Island"), which is on the east side of a large, "H" shaped lake, 30 km or so northwest of Oslo. The lake is named Tyrifjorden, although it is freshwater - it's fairly common for lakes in Norway to be called 'fjords'. Geographers internationally mostly use the word for bodies of salt water.

Wes: Yes, I talked with the local garden shop, and they recommended a mixture of lichen and buttermilk (!) to regrow lichen. I'm not sure they quite understood where I need to grow the stuff, though. If I apply it during dry summer weather, it will dry up and blow away. In winter, wash away. Maybe during damp but not wet weather, giving the stuff a chance? Any advice your girlfriend can provide would be welcome.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 24, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
There's not too much violence in the world.

The world has just the right amount of violence in it.
The world is already perfect.
It is what it is.
Ancient patterns that endlessly repeat.

Condolences to friends and families of the victims.
RIP
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 24, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
Word.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
It appears that one of the targets of the murderer was former prime minister Gro Harlem Brundtland, who had spoken at the youth camp at Utøya a day earlier. Prime Minister Stoltenberg was to speak at it the day after the murders. Brundtland has a high international profile.

The names of the victims will not be released for about a week. Probably not a good week for the tabloids to harass the families.

Denmark will also observe a minute of silence at noon on Monday. It's now morning there, so perhaps Lolli will check in later.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
Credit: Scandinavia and the World website
(Suggested by Lolli earlier.)
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
Unreal sadness......unreal.....
What a world..

http://cnnmobile.com/primary/_6SkRgj-iMVIbBTGMi
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:53am PT
Moosie,

I don't blame anyone for following Islam. I think some of it's fundamental tenets need modification, most notably the treatment of women.


BUT, many of it's current political and religious leaders still believe in the convert or death provisions. Why else would President Obama be requesting that the Saudi textbooks be revised??? Remember it's PRESIDENT OBAMA who is not happy with some members of Islam.

Oh, when I post to the "Clash of Civilizations", it's just the same reality that President Obama see's, only I see a military conflict erupting prior to Islam moderating. Been that way for 1300 years.


The evil one
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:02am PT
What doesn't make sense to me is that if you're anti-Muslim immigration, why slaughter a bunch of your on countrymen? At a youth camp?

God bless the fallen.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:11am PT
Norwegian prison isn't really prison.



That looks like the Super 8 in Coos Bay. Much nicer than the Motel 6 in Eureka. It's a hell of a lot nicer than our Cadets at West Point have it.





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1277158/Halden-Prison-Inside-Norways-posh-new-jail.html

If he's found to be an especially bad egg, he's sent off to an island "prison":



That looks like the B&Bs at places like Haceta Head and Cabrillo Point Lighthouses ( which go for about $400/night and up ).



fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:18am PT
Oh, the people of Europe are speaking as well, one Scandinavian country has banned minarets on religious building, France has banned Burkas (sp), etc. Countries should be open to all religions, but must have one law, not Sharia.

Oh, one of my first cousins married a wonderful girl this weekend. A Sikh, wow what a beautiful Sikh ceremony. Then they had a Catholic wedding in the evening.


The evil one
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:25am PT
Time to round up all Loony Right wingers and throw them in jail
For crimes against humanity
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:25am PT
What doesn't make sense to me is that if you're anti-Muslim immigration, why slaughter a bunch of your on countrymen? At a youth camp?

God bless the fallen.

Blue, as I have read it, the youth camp these children were attending is run by the Labor Party. It may be that the killer saw them as future leaders of the party he opposes.

He is a monster.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:42am PT
if this was done in US, he was already tied up to some cells in Afghanistan so we could extend the BS war for another 20 years
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 10:11am PT
The Greater Threat: Christian Extremism From Timothy McVeigh to Anders Breivik
by Pierre Tristam
Published on Monday, July 25, 2011 by Flagler Live


Timothy McVeigh, meet Anders Behring Breivik.
Christian jihadists: Timothy McVeigh and Anders Behring Breivik.
Those two jihadists—two right-wing reactionaries, two terrorists, two anti-government white supremacists, two Christians—have a lot in common, down to the way the massacres they carried out were first mistaken for the work of Islamists by an American press rich in zealotry of its own. And they have a lot more in common with the fundamentalist politicians and ideologues among us who pretend to have nothing to do with the demons they inspire.

After the Oklahoma City bombing in April 1995, speculation flew on television news stations about Arab terrorists seen in the vicinity of the federal building. The thought that a home-grown, Midwestern Army veteran of the first Gulf war could possibly murder 168 people, including 19 children at a day care center, seemed as foreign as those Islamic lands that were then inspiring so much of bigotry’s latest American mutant. McVeigh turned out to be as all-American as he could possibly be, with extras. His paradoxical worship of the Second Amendment was the faith that fueled his hatred of a government he felt had betrayed American ideals by enabling what he called “Socialist wannabe slaves.” His idealism of a golden-age white America was the Christian translation of al-Qaeda’s idealized caliphate.

It became quickly evident that the bombing in Oslo and the massacre on Utoya Island on Friday had been carried out by Anders Breivik, who surrendered to police 40 minutes after beginning his killing spree on the island. Yet the Wall Street Journal ran an editorial on Saturday putting the blame for the attack on Islamist extremists, because “in jihadist eyes,” the paper said, “it will forever remain guilty of being what it is: a liberal nation committed to freedom of speech and conscience, equality between the sexes, representative democracy and every other freedom that still defines the West."

The paper subsequently amended its editorial to concede that Breivik “was an ethnic Norwegian with no previously known ties to Islamist groups.” But the rest of the piece still framed the attack in the context of Islamist terrorism. It’s a common tactic at the Journal and Fox News—co-owned by Rupert Murdoch’s scandal-riddled News Corp.—where facts are incidental to ideology. It is enough for the Journal to insinuate a connection for its Foxified audience to catch the drift and run with it. Breivik may be Norwegian. But he wouldn’t be doing what he did if it weren’t for the pollution of white, Christian European blood by Muslims and multiculturalists, by leftists, by Socialist wannabe slaves.

McVeigh and Breivik are bloody reminders that Western culture’s original sin—the presumption of supremacy—is alive and well and clenching many a trigger. It’ll be easy in coming days, as it was in 1995, to categorize the demons as exceptions unrepresentative of their societies. Easy, but false. Norway, like much of Europe, like the United States, is in the grips of a disturbing resurgence of right-wing fanaticism. “The success of populist parties appealing to a sense of lost national identity,” The Times reports, “has brought criticism of minorities, immigrants and in particular Muslims out of the beer halls and Internet chat rooms and into mainstream politics. While the parties themselves generally do not condone violence, some experts say a climate of hatred in the political discourse has encouraged violent individuals."

It’s convenient duplicity. The parties don’t explicitly condone violence. But they would have no appeal without explicitly endorsing beliefs of supremacy and projecting the sort of scorn and hatred for those who fall outside the tribe that cannot but lead to violence or the sort of fractured society we’ve become so familiar with. Those “Take Back America” bumper stickers share most of their DNA with the same strain of rejectionist white Europeans who think their culture is being bankrupted by Socialism and immigrants. Those idiotic anti-Sharia laws creeping up in Oklahoma, Arizona and Florida take their cues from the likes of Geert Wilder, the Dutch People’s Party leader who compares the Koran to Hitler’s Mein Kampf. Florida’s own Koran-burning Terry Jones or the Rev. Franklin Graham’s velvety crusade against Islam are Wilder’s American clones.

Timothy McVeigh’s rhetoric may have been more extreme, but it was indistinguishable from the more college-polished and aged rhetoric of anti-government reactionaries now pretending to speak for American ideals under the banner of patriots, tea parties, Fox News’s hacking of the “fair and balanced” parody, or more establishment oriented zealots in Congress. The common denominator is exclusion and heresy: those who supposedly belong to “true” American values, and those who don’t. Al-Qaeda’s loyalty oath is identical: those who belong to “true” Islamic values and those who don’t. Either way, the inclusive, tolerant, broad-minded, and yes, multicultural outlook is under siege by fundamentalism in virtually every part of society as we know it: cultural, political, economic, religious. Timothy McVeigh and Anders Breivik used bombs and rifles. More seasoned zealots use rhetoric and policies. The ongoing march of folly over the national debt is merely one example among many.

“We tend to think of national security narrowly as the risk of a military or terrorist attack,” the columnist Nicholas Kristof writes today. “But national security is about protecting our people and our national strength — and the blunt truth is that the biggest threat to America’s national security this summer doesn’t come from China, Iran or any other foreign power. It comes from budget machinations, and budget maniacs, at home.”

Islamists who may want us harm need only sit back and enjoy the view. They might as well have outsourced the job to their Christian brethren, with plenty of assists from mainstream conservatives. There’s no segregating these demons and maniacs. They’re an integral part of western culture. They’re us.

Gene

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 10:13am PT
Norwegian police reduced the number of casualties killed from the shooting rampage by Anders Behring Breivik at the Utoeya island to 68 from 86. The number of casualties from the Oslo bombing the same day was raised to 8, Police Commissioner Oeystein Maeland spoke at press conference today.

That leaves the total number of casualties at 76, down from a previous estimate of 93.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-25/norway-police-lower-number-of-casualties-from-shooting-bomb-attacks-to-76.html

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 10:52am PT
Please. This thread is intended to be a dignified place to remember the dead and what happened, and for civil discussion about what happened and may happen. There are lots of political threads where those of you who are so inclined can post to your hearts' content, yell at each other, and on and on. The "Republicans" thread. The fatuous "Clash of Civilizations" thread. Etc etc, with wearying monotony.

Please don't do it here. If you can't be civil, constructive, and on topic, go away.

As for the photos, supposedly of a Norwegian prison. Assume that the photos fairly show some aspects of a typical Norwegian prison, the sort of place that a mass murderer might be jailed. (We don't know that, of course. It could be somewhere where convicted drunk drivers are kept on day parole, before being released.) Even if that's the case, perhaps all it does is illustrate the flaws of other countries' prisons and rehabilitation systems.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 25, 2011 - 10:58am PT
very sad deal. this thread though about sums up some of the issues of humanity. nearly 100 innocents needlessly and ruthlessly killed and some Supertopo posters are too busy arguing, slandering, controlling, etc. rather than getting thier own life.



FACT: IS THE FARMACY CLOSED TODAY OR SUMTHIN?
\

FACT: i think some of this crowd needs sumthin stronger than what the pharmacy has in stock!
reddirt

climber
PNW
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:08am PT
[quote]Sam Harris, inciteful as always:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/christian-terrorism-and-islamophobia[/quote]

had to scroll thru link to see if you meant inciteful or insightful... think you meant the latter? funny how they're almost antonyms... at least in the context of this thread.
coz

Gym climber
not sure
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:12am PT
Fatty,

On a thread about a right wing killer who has much the same feeling as you; you take the time to bag on Muslims.

I do not see you condemning this man or his actions, probably because you find truth in his words.

I don't care if you donated money, or visit a person in a hospital.

You're a scary man, with very little ability to think critically, do us all a favor with your condescending apology and f*#k off.

I find it shocking that anyone thinks you're a good person, when you uses this tragedy to further your hate toward others, with your idiotic right wing rants.


thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:16am PT
Dr.F.- "Christian Jihadist"

Inflamatory, malilcious, & downright vile rhetoric which is used to incite hatred, perscution, fear towards God loving Christians in America by alighning them with viciously murderous criminals.

In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh said that he did not belive in hell and that SCIENCE was his religion!!
In June 2001, a day befoe his execution, Mcveigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News claiming to be an AGNOSTIC!

Sounds like McVeigh was one of your brethern DR.F.!!

edit: Sorry M.H., but I would be remiss by not responding to this.

fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:48am PT
coz,

You don't read very well, I called him a right wing whacko. If he were here, I'd send him right to the death chamber, in Norway he deserves his 21+++++++ years. Take some reading lessons.


The evil one
coz

Gym climber
not sure
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:50am PT
Read this, F*#k off asshat!

You're a non climber right wing troll, that I for one would like to see banned.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:55am PT
Dr.F.- "Christian Jihadist"

I just posted the Article, I didn't make it up
But I agree with it

Right Wing Christian Extremists are a threat to America and the world, just like Right Wing Muslim Extremists

Sounds like McVeigh was one of your brethern DR.F.!!
No, he is not my brethern (breathren, sp?)
Lame
PP

Trad climber
SF,CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:59am PT


There is an interresting article in the Atlantic monthly (Mind on trial) It's about the guy who shot many people from the texas library tower. apparently he had a brain tumor in an area of his brain that affected urge control and he had been to a doctor asking for help from uncontrollable violent urges. He left a note asking for his brain to be studied because he knew something was wrong. He murdered his mother ,his wife and then many people at that texas library.

un-helped mental illness can cause great tradgedies. In the US there are many mentally ill that are placed in solitary confinement in our prisons.

It seems like these things come out of no where; but they don't.



jstan

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
Systems of justice using juries populated by citizens work only if the citizenry respects the need for calm application of reason. Justice by lynch mob is the alternative.

As America wends its way into third world status, the choice as to which of these worlds we want to live in, will have to be made.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
"n the 1930's the Germans were very angry over the terms of the treaty ending WWI, they formed lynch mobs that beat up people on the street, and even more millions of people died."

The Third Riech was 20 years in the making. It occured because most people did nothing to stop it, including most of the rest of the world until they had no other choice. There were some very brave citizens who spoke up against the hate and propaganda and the lies and the fear that was slowly used to take over the country, but they were silenced and killed and in the end even their memories were completly crushed
So the problem was not people preaching hate, whack jobs and political power mongers will always do that, the problem is that good people said nothing because they were either ignorant, cowardly or just appeased into silence.

This psychopath had an organic.farm.
Im sure he gave away a few boxs of tomatoes and everyone thought he was a terribly misunderstood man.

Quite honestly the hollow words of nothing on this thread make me sick.
Yes, lets send a card- that will make it all better.
Yes yes, lovely symbols of doing, with out actually doing anything- with out getting your hands, or your soul bloody.

Shhhh, shhhh,shhhh....
Innocence has died......the innocence of a country, the innocence of children.....
Please let's not make it worse by trying to understand why it occurs...
Empty words.....empty words only please........


dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
Glenn Beck:

Beck said that the Labour party youth camp on the island, where 68 people were murdered, bore "disturbing" similarities to the Nazi party's notorious juvenile wing.

Beck, a multimillionaire darling of the Tea Party movement, said on his nationally-syndicated radio show: "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Glenn-Beck-compares-Norways-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
"As America wends its way into third world status, the choice as to which of these worlds we want to live in, will have to be made."

Third world status?
Holy crap...
Are you reading tea bagger web sites or something?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
Have they no shame???

No.. they don't. They think shame is for the weak and they pride themselves on having no shame. They also believe that the ends justifies the means, so they will use any tool to win. Standing up to them is not easy.

Edit: to be clear, I was speaking about people like Glenn Beck.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
Is there no end to the dirt sick voices of the far right can forge in their disgusting brains and blurt out?
Have they no shame???

the incident in Norway is not a left-wing, right wing deal. anyone portraying it as such is as whacked out as the guilty whacked out SOB who killed innocents.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
"Have they no shame???"

Exactly!! ...no they don't. They are beyond shame and even the wildest fairy tales of reason.
Most people have not been paying attention.
It would blow your mind if you knew what they promoted and talked about on television and radio waves 24 hours a day.

Do you think this psychopath came up with these ideas on his own?
Imagine the programing, the discussions, the literature, the teaching and the unreal anger and hate that would get a man to the point he feels it justified to kill 90 children.
Put a few days thought into that and try to understand- its worth far more to these murdered kids then any empty words.

There is much historical precedent for this- nothing is a new phenomena.



http://www.pensitoreview.com/2011/07/25/norwegian-right-wing-christian-terrorist-who-slaughtered-92-people-cites-tea-party-nazis/
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:00pm PT

From the above link

Here is Breivik, writing in his 1,500-page manifesto, titled “2083 — A European Declaration of Independence”:


We, the European Revolutionary Conservatives, know very well that it will take many years, even decades before we successfully manage to consolidate to a degree where we can seize political and military power in the first Western European country. In the US, the Tea party movement is one of the first physical, political manifestations which indicate that there is a great storm coming.

Another tangential connection to the tea party: In 2010, Tim Phillips, president of Americans for Prosperity, the Koch brothers-funded tea-party astroturf group, spoke at a conclave of the Progress Party, the right-wing Norwegian political party in which Breivik claims membership.



Not a right wing problem? I beg to differ


What about Jesus Camp, isn't that were they brainwashed kids to praise Geroge Bush and do mock battles with liberals, Just like Glenn Beck's Nazi Camps
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
And shouldn't we speak out against what's going on
To stop it before its too late, unlike what Nazi Germany did

Our media has declined to be responsible,
we must hold it to be responsible
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
Yep Dr. F, it's nice to think that both sides are equally to blame, but that usually isn't true.

Anyway, this is so sad.
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
Lolli- "No you would NOT be remiss. X( Leave it be."

Dr.F.- "Christian Extremist: Timothy McVeigh..."

The man was NOT a Christian, Said so himself. And even if had claimed to be one he would be a liar, or very confused in the least. But he was definately an Extremist(no shit)and evil to the core.

As is this nutcase from Norway.

Lolli, why didn't aask Dr.F. to stand down on his typical Christian bashing?

Just for the record, Glen beck is NOT a Christian. And I would venture to guess that neither are the vast majority of tea-baggers.

This presumed fundamentalist/evangelical Christian aliance with the radical right is bogus. The Christians I know treat everyone as more important then themselves(Word)including illegal immigrints. I came very close to going to jail for feeding, giving water/fluids, transportation and support(financial)to four(4)illegal youths(ages 16-19)who were traveling from deep inside Mexico to L.A.(I hope & prayed that they made it). And would do it again.

Many of you do not have a clue what following and serving Jesus Christ entails. Do a google search of Bible verses pertaining to aliens & soujorners(travelors/same as people coming from distant lands)and what it commands us to do as Christians.

Dr.F., now that i think about it, sorry for connecting you directly to the article you posted(that is your perogitive)...I was just kidding in regards to the "breathern" remark. But I needed to correct the false asumptions in regards to T McVeighs spiritual affiliations.

Peace...

edit: FWIW, The four illegals came trudging into my life early one very cold March morning in @1991. I was next to the railroad tracks about 40+ miles from the border & 40 miles from the immigration/drugstop on I5. They were all in t-shirts & jeans & carrying nothing else. They first three avoided eye contact & directed their gaze towards the ground the 4th, in a moment of desperation, looked at me and said "Agua?" and motioned like he was drinking from a bottle. I said yes, and he called out to the other three. They new practically zero English, as was my case with Spanish. We communicated(well enough)by hand and expression, etc. & by drawing on the ground. I told them my age(39)and as I reported above, they told me theirs. I had a small bottle of water(about a cup each), along with about half a breakfast burrito left over from Taco Bell that morning. I can't begin to describe how beat they looked. Evidently they had been walking for the past two days, mostly along or skirting the tracks from the border. It was freezing out. I had cloths in my van(for when I went to LA on business)so I gave them some shirts/jaket, etc. I mentioned that I would go and get the water & cloths, and just then remembered the burrito. I simply asked "Burrito" and their eyes lite up. When I returned with a half a bottle of of about a 16oz. bottle of drinking water(all I could find)& the half eaten burrito you could visibly see how disapointed/dejected they looked, crestfallen is the term I suppose. I felt like a total fool. I could not leave them there(the nearest grocery story was about 20mi up the coast)or in that state(look up those scriptures). I ended getting them to within a half a mile from the checkpoint & a couple mi. from San Clemente, Ca(their destination)40+ miles from where we met earlier that day. Got them food & water for the rest of their journey and gave them what money I had. That is just the beggining of the story. I got tooled by the Border Patrol(with them laying down in the back of my van)which they referred to as "Immigration" and a couple other close calls.

Maybe I did something or some things wrong, but like I said, "I would do it again." I just want to say this, they were some of the most humble, ungreedy, kind, and thankful youth or just plain people in general that I have ever met in my entire life. if I had ended up going to jail, and they made it to SC on account of my actions(I hope they did)I would have had no regrets.

Sorry again about the thread drift, I will delete this later...just wanted to clarify/put perspective on a few things.

dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
Just for the record, Glen beck is NOT a Christian.

That's not what Beck says.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
Ahh yes....equivalency..
The great lobotomy of the masses.
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
dirtbag- "That's not what Jeff Beck says"

JB states(on & off the record)that he is a Mormon. There is a vast difference. this is not the place or time to discuss it, but for starters/instance, they(LDS)do not believe that JC is Divine(God).

edit: Lolli, I agree with everything you said in your post above^^^!! Evangelical Christians have nothing to do with that ideaology even if they do include the name "Christian" in there.

There is absolutly zero biblical scriptural support for their ideaology, beliefs or actions.

EDIT: Blowing up abortion clinics, harassing their clientele, etc. and killing abortion doctors(duh)is all evil...plain & simple.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
What a bunch of stupid comments in this thread. If you all want to bash each other, bash religion, discuss f*ckheads like Glenn Beck, whatever, you should go do it in one of the polidiot threads.


Can we start a new thread for expressing condolences to Norway? I'd support nuking this thread.
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
cleo-I didn't bring any of this crap up, I am only responding to the false claims and delusions(connecting any of this to the God of the Bible and His followers)of others.

edit: Lolli_ OK, I won't allow myself to get pulled into this here anymore...I agree, it's totally inapropriate here.

SORRY...

"Lolli" Yo, girl...Yea I caught that/corrected after noticing your last post.

;-)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
I quite agree with Lolli - except I may be much angrier than her. It is abundantly clear that the murderer was a right-wing, nihilist, racist, inspired by but without known direct association with such groups and individuals in other countries, including in the USA. He also claims to be a "Christian", as right-wingers elsewhere often do. The details to be sorted out, but the picture is clear. No pretending otherwise. He will be dealt with in the context of Norwegian society, culture and justice.

It's easy to understand how Erik reacted as he did to what some have posted here.

Addressing the congregation at Oslo cathedral, Jens Stoltenberg, Norway's prime minister, rejected the idea that Norway will become, like Britain and America, a more restricted and frightened society. "I am proud to live in a country that has managed to stand firm," he said. "I am impressed over how much dignity, care and strength we have. We are a small country but we are a proud people. We are still shaken, but we will never give up our values. Our answer is more democracy and openness, never naivete."
If only those here could speak with similar wisdom and forebearance, and resist importing their personal beliefs and behaviours into the discussion. I expect no better of Fattrad, Dr. F, skipt and jghedge, but some others know better. Don't let those fools bait you.

There have been no significant calls in Norway for restoration of capital punishment. There is embarrassment that the attack was by a native Norwegian, although whether the police had or should have had any foreknowledge of Breivik and his plans is unknown. It seems likely that there will be a parliamentary (Storting) enquiry into what happened, and right-wing extremism.

As for Glenn Beck - well, if he flew to Norway, he would probably be arrested on arrival in Oslo.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 25, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
Well I hate to tell you this guys but the US no longer has the highest standard of living in the world.
For one thing dozens of countries educate their children better.

We are well on our way to third world status, and when our currency is worthless lets see what happens to our hollow empire.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
is the hatefilled violent-loving xenophobic and misanthropic filth that the right winger extremists spew out into the world.

Lolli I took the liberty of making a small edit...

A lot of unbridled hate and anger hear. Understandably.

Please though, don't equate a sane person who perhaps has political or social views to the right of yours with a mass murdering extremist monster.

Perhaps one thing we can all agree on is that extremism generally does not work out well, especially when mixed with insanity.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 25, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
Not a right wing/left wing deal, huh? Forget it. No way there'll be an acceptance of changing this to a lone lunatic, acting on his own.
Had it been a muslim fundamentalist instead of a right wing fundamentalist, you'd sure be fast to blame entire religions.

read what ksolem said.....

if it were a muslim there is no way i would denounce an entire religion which is why you should not denounce right wingers....pathetic.

if he were black would you then denounce all blacks?

this thread should be nuked, while there are some good things on here it is overshadowed by emotional people wishing to cram their views of the world down others...isnt that what the whackjob was all about? think about it.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 25, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
Breivik had the luxury of bountiful time to hunt down and execute his victims.

This also appears to be an abject failure of Norway's law enforcement and security forces.

The response time between receiving notification of the assault on Utoeya and arrival of law enforcement on the scene was one hour (according to current news sources). Norway is a small country and Utoeya is not a great distance from the capitol.

I understand the Oslo bomb created a successful diversion, nonetheless when the general citizenry is disarmed by law, by default it makes them wholly dependent upon the government for their security. Practically, the government then assumes responsibility for the safety of the citizens and yet governments routinely disavow this defacto 'responsibility'.

For law enforcement to take an hour to arrive on the scene of a mass massacre of children is unacceptable and bewildering. Couldn't find a boat, couldn't get a helicopter, and couldn't hail a taxi doesn't cut it. There's no good excuse for this. The LEO response appears amateurish and poorly planned while Breivik's attack appears highly planned and disciplined.

A single armed citizen on the scene may have been able to put a swifter conclusion to this tragedy.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
is the hatefilled violent-loving xenophobic and misanthropic filth that the right winger extremists spew out into the world.

I beg to differ. It's a continuum of hate and American conservatives have employed it reliably and extensively over the past fifty years. Campaigns against blacks, homosexuals, and latinos by way of 'immigration' - all carefully worded and 'coded' - have been the mainstay strategy of all recent national republican campaigns and remain so today. Current republican campaign strategies are all based upon on and designed to stir indignation and rage against 'them'. It is the very essence of hate, bigotry, and racism regardless of how carefully crafted.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
Vi Har Valgt å Besvare Grusomhet med Nærhet
"We Have Chosen to Reply to Cruelness with Nearness/Neighbourliness"

The headline today in Norway's main newspaper, and the opening line of the crown prince's speech today. About 150,000 attended the minute of silence in downtown Oslo today, in person - about 1/4 of the population of the area. Crown Prince Håkon Magnus and Princess Martha Louise attended.

http://www.aftenposten.no/

There are apparently books of condolence at all Norwegian embassies and consulates world-wide, which are open to the public for several hours each day. I can't find anything more on the internet, apart from the "Light a Candle" site on FaceBook - there must be something.

lovegasoline: Try to look at what happened from the perspective of Norway and Norwegians, not that of the US. I appreciate that it may be difficult, but it's a very different context. Might have beens and speculation are of little help. FYI, the rate of long gun ownership in Norway is quite high, and given compulsory military service, many are trained in their use. Whether the police or military might have gotten to Utøya earlier will come out in the judicial enquiry. There is no chance of Norway allowing easy access to handguns, and given that its overall rate of violent crime is a fraction of that of the US, it's obvious why.

You don't want to know Norway's reaction to Fox News' coverage of the events.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
I do not want to get drawn into a political debate, nonetheless, despite the great strides the USA has made in civil rights in the past half century we have by no means eradicated those deep rooted hatreds. The haters have learned from their mistakes and have gone underground. It is covert instead of overt. Ask any African American if the hatred is gone. Ask any Mexican. Etc., etc.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
"That's not what Jeff Beck says"

Tha Dood - you must mean Glenn Beck! Jeff Beck woulda said "I'm goin' down"


there was a choice quote out of someones link a while back:

"Fanaticism eats its own children"


ThaDood, you seem to be pretty sensitive to the perception of intolerance and bigotry being associated with christian evangelism / fundamentalism. don't you think its is true that large segments of organized christianity has become politicized and co-opted for the purpose of demonizing anybody but themselves? I think you're right to suggest that these people are not "real" christians but they are over powering and co-opting the real meaning of christ for nefarious purposes. Where is the outrage and back lash from the "real" christians?
QITNL

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
Just in case I'm missing something here, Lolli, you are in Norway, right? Correct me if I am mistaken. Anyone else?

As far as I'm concerned, anyone in Norway or with real connections to that country can say anything they want. I'm happy to hear their first-hand reports. You're welcome to run the gamut of emotion - grief, anger, fear - as you work it out.

The rest of the world of the world paid a significant respect to us yanks a decade ago when our tragedy struck. At the time, I greatly appreciated it. Today, from this distance, I choose to issue no judgement, but only wish to express my condolences and support.
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
healyje,

What a crock of bullsh#t. Bush and McCain put forward honest immigration legislation.


The evil one
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
What a crock of bullsh#t. Bush and McCain put forward honest immigration legislation. The evil one

No, it's not and you steadily push hate-based threads here on ST day in, day out. You should reconsider as it's tracts such as yours that this guy fed on.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
The Norwegian government website is at: http://www.regjeringen.no/en.html

It includes things like the address yesterday by Prime Minister Stoltenberg: http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/smk/Whats-new/Speeches-and-articles/statsministeren/statsminister_jens_stoltenberg/2011/address-by-prime-minister-in-oslo-cathed.html?id=651789

The Norwegian government's website in the USA is at http://www.norway.org/ Also http://www.norway.org/News_and_events/top-stories/Signing-of-Book-of-Condolences/ The embassy and consulates are in Washington, D.C., New York City, Houston, and San Francisco. There is an on-line condolences thingie on the Aftenposten website.

King Harald's speech: http://www.kongehuset.no/c27262/nyhet/vis.html?tid=92959

(His grandfather was King Haakon VII, who led Norway through World War II. The royal family is immensely popular.)

[All sites helpfully in English also.]

Jeff, Joseph: Please take it somewhere else.

QITNL: I'm about 1/2 Norwegian by ancestry, and have spent some time there in school, climbing, visiting cousins and friends, and teaching climbing. Probably over a half year total. I also speak Norwegian, though not fluently.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
My heartfelt condolences go out to the families of those involved in this tragedy.
QITNL

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
Thanks for the clarification, Lolli, I had a feeling you somewhere were in those parts. It's probably like watching those planes smash into the towers from the Jersey side of the Hudson, close enough to feel the blast. Too close, in fact. I've never been to Norway but did a couple of gigs in Sweden. I enjoyed the country and the people very much. Best luck.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
King Harald's speech, from Saturday:

Norway has been struck by a national tragedy. The kind of calamity that we hoped would never happen here has somehow taken place.

At Sundvolden today we met young people and their families who shared with us their gruesome stories. They have lived through a day that is beyond all comprehension. Our thoughts and deepest sympathy go out to all of those afflicted by the events in Oslo and on Utøya.

The police, rescue workers, health personnel and volunteers have worked tirelessly and heroically to save lives, in some cases at risk to their own. All of us are affected by the catastrophe that has swept over us, and we watch in disbelief as the death toll continues to rise.

In the midst of all the anguish and chaos, the Prime Minister, the Government and the ministries have responded to the situation with exceptional fortitude and resolve.

Both as individuals and as a nation it will take us a long time to digest and work our way through what we have witnessed, our grief and our feelings. We will need each other in this process. Throughout the length and breadth of our country, there are people who have lost someone they loved. Many of our children and young people are afraid today. We must make every effort to reassure them. Many will want to be together, while others will need space for quiet reflection. It is comforting that the country’s churches are open for anyone who wishes to light a candle and seeks a place to be. It is also helpful that the local authorities and volunteer organisations are providing arenas for those who feel a need to be with others.

There is still much we do not know about the background for yesterday’s atrocities, and it is essential that we let the responsible authorities continue their work to bring clarity to the situation. Some things we do know, however: the acts in Oslo and on Utøya are an attack on the Norwegian society that we hold so dear. And they represent an assault upon the very heart of Norwegian democracy.

It is when our nation is put to the test that the true strength, solidarity and courage of the Norwegian people come to the fore. We stand united behind our values.

I firmly believe that freedom is stronger than fear.

I firmly believe in an open Norwegian democracy and society.

I firmly believe that we will uphold our ability to live freely and securely in our own country.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
I really like this King Harold guy.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
MH, my mind always goes to the issue of self defense when a massacre takes place and likely we hold differing views on the topic.
Out of respect for refocusing this thread, I’ll put it to rest here as there’s more apt places to discuss EU and Norwegian firearm policies and/or deficits of Norway’s law enforcement than an American climbing forum.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
lovegas is a class act compared to some on here.

this incident as riley said in a different thread has changed the psyche in norway. i am hopeful that they will do better than we have since 911...
zeta

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
I finally heard from my Norwegian friend who works in a gov't building downtown. She's ok--thankfully!--but I thought it was interesting what she wrote me:

"I was out of town when the bomb went off. It went off close to where I work and walk everyday, but our office is ok. As far as I know my coworkers are ok. I am not totally informed about people in the Ministries. It is a tragedy for our country and Oslo. It is a before and after and it will change us. But I think to the better. Probably we will be even more open than before. Still, security will be even more important. Our city has changed and I wonder how it will be to get back"

It's interesting that she wrote that life will be more 'open' even as they add much more security.. I'm sure it will radically change life there for Norwegians. It's a very sad tragedy...
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
Bruce Kay,

Yes I meant Glen Beck(I have a hard time remembering his name at times cuz I rarely watch his show)& Jeff Beck is a favorite musician/guitarist of mine(saw him live with Steve Miller)here in San Diego at a very small venue(about 100 people) around 1969/70.

In regards to what else you said, I have long said that it was a mistake by the Evangelical/Fundamentalist church to align themselves with various politicians and politics in general. I have said before that JC said, when asked by one of His disciples "What about Ceasar"(or Rome)the ruling government over Palistine in that day. "Give to Ceasar, what belongs to Ceasar..." I relate this to paying our taxes but not getting bogged down in all the political hooplaw that is going on. There were many that were rising up and fighting/using gorilla tactics against Rome. And many believed that this is why the Messiah would come, to overthrough Rome & oppresion, etc. and set up His government. Not so then, and not so now. He gave us our commisions, to take His story to the ends of the earth. We are supposed to live by example(see what I added/edited to my post @ 2:03pm #226 1 page upthread)I try to live by example. We are not going to return(not sure that it ever was)to some prior state. If society has declined to such a state, then it is our faults, our personal lack of being the salt of the earth, and living by example. If things are wrong with their country it is their fault(Christians)God calls us Christians to repent not non-Christians;

"When I shut up heaven and their is no rain, and command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face and turn from THEIR wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will heal THEIR sin and heal THEIR land. 2 Chronicles 7:13-14

He is talking to us(Christians)we have failed because of the sin in our lives. Indeed if it ever was a "Christian Nation", and has preceeded to decline, then we are to blame. Much of the church fell into the prosperity gospel, me, me, me... Or just became more like the world, ever so slowly. Or simply became apathetic. Or allowed pornography, drugs, infidelity...I don't know peoples(Christians)hearts, but I know mine, I have failed. And the church got the wrong message in the 1980's, 90's and now. We are not going to bring countrys/people closer to Christ by making them democratic first. Look at Afganistan or Iraq or Russia for that matter. We are not going to change the world. There is a very small minority of Christians(about 8%)which think that armagedon has already taken place, and we are now in the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and the world will slowly become all Christian. Sorry folks, it ain't gonna happen.

I made a promise to Lolli and I have already broke it...MY BAD.

I am not doing any follow ups or answering or reading anymor posts on this thread. PROMISE.

LATA!!!

edit: Like I have already said, it has gotten so out of hand that Republicans, Tea Party, the "conservative right" etc. are all lumped together with the "Christian Church"...way bad!!
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/eirik-bergesen/norway-is-passing-the-tes_b_908008.html?ref=fb&src=sp
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
I'm sure it will radically change life there for Norwegians.

I doubt that. Norwegians have been 'being Norwegian' for a very long time. One whack job is not going to unbutton a civilization. Norway will move through this strong and proud. You'll see.

DMT
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
In other news, tens of thousands of are dying of starvation in Somalia.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/somalis-flee-famine-along-roads-of-death/2011/07/25/gIQApW0VZI_story.html

Tragedy in Africa seems to go unnoticed.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
I beg to differ. It's a continuum of hate and American conservatives have employed it reliably and extensively over the past fifty years. Campaigns against blacks, homosexuals, and latinos by way of 'immigration' - all carefully worded and 'coded' - have been the mainstay strategy of all recent national republican campaigns and remain so today. Current republican campaign strategies are all based upon on and designed to stir indignation and rage against 'them'. It is the very essence of hate, bigotry, and racism regardless of how carefully crafted.

You can beg to differ all you want. But if you really want to go back 50 years you will have to find an explanation for Democrat party resistance to integration in the south. George Wallace was a candidate for the Democrat nomination for president I think in was 1964?

All I am saying is that on either side of the political or social spectrum one finds dangerous extremists. You are bordering yourself here by painting with a broad brush. "A continuum of hate... employed effectively by American conservatives..." I don't think you know what an American Conservative is. Of course neither do any of the politicians, so those of us who "get it" are almost without a voice.

Cheers to you. I am very sad about the events in Norway where my father was born in Solem.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
The Bombs in Afghanistan Have Landed in Norway

by Jesse McLaren
Published on Monday, July 25, 2011 by Rabble.ca
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/07/25-6


A decade of Islamophobia to justify the war in Afghanistan is now spreading violence to the West. Right-wing Islamophobe Anders Behring Breivik has killed 91 people in Norway, through the explosion of a bomb near the Prime Minister's building and a shooting spree in a youth camp organized by the Workers’ Youth League.

The initial response by international media was to blame Muslims. But when the alleged perpetrator turned out to be a blond-hair, blue-eyed Norwegian Christian nationalist, some are now denying there’s any context whatsoever for the killing. As a Norwegian official said, "It seems it's not Islamic-terror related. This seems like a madman's work."

But Breiviks was not driven by "madness," he was driven by right-wing Islamophobic politics. From 1997 to 2007 he was a member of the xenophobic "Progress Party." Since that time police chief Sveinung Sponheim describe his internet postings as having “some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views”, and others have pointed out his an admirer of prominent anti-Muslim individuals and organizations like Geert Wilders and the English Defense League.

Islamophobia

Islamophobia existed well before the terror attacks of 9/11. After the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995 (orchestrated by Gulf War veteran and right-wing extremist Timothy McVeigh), the media blamed Muslims, and the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee documented death threats against Muslims and vandalism of mosques. But for the past decade there has been a surge in Islamophobia to scapegoat populations at home and justify wars abroad. The Western countries with Islamophobic policies overlaps with those occupying Afghanistan: from the US (which incarcerated Muslims without trial in Guantanamo Bay), to Canada (which has rounded up Muslim men and pressured them to admit to terrorism, while Muslim Canadians have been abandoned abroad, and media have amplified fringe-group campaigns against prayer spaces), to France (which is banning girls who wear hijab from school, and women who wear niqab from public space), to Norway.

The website Islamophobia-watch has documented anti-Muslim racism around the world, which in Norway includes:
•2006: the Directorate for Primary and Secondary Education of Norway banned girls and women wearing niqab form school
•2007: anti-immigration politicians in Bergen threatened to use pigs feet to chase praying Muslims out of a public square.
•2009: the Norwegian government tried to ban female police officers from wearing the hijab
•April 2011: attempts were made to set up a Norwegian Defense League -- modeled on the English Defense League--with a demonstration was called against the “Islamic occupation of Noway”. While only 10-15 Islamophobes turned up, up to 1000 people attended a counter-demonstration
•May 2011: a school in Bergen had to be evacuated when a national newspaper received a message threatening “A massacre at Gimle school Bergen. Everyone that stands in the way will die, especially Muslims.”

But police have refused to see Islamophobia as a threat. “It’s surprising, because the Norwegian police have long said that the right wing extremist community was under control,” said Hegghammer, of the Norwegian Defense Research Establishment.

Fight poverty, racism and militarism

As Martin Luther King famously said:

“The bombs in Vietnam explode at home. They destroy the hopes and possibilities for a decent America. If we reversed investments and gave the armed forces the anti-poverty budget, the generals could be forgiven if they walked off the battlefield in disgust. Poverty, urban problems and social progress generally are ignored when the guns of war become a national obsession.”

The horrific crimes of Anders Behring Breivik have exposed the consequences of war and Islamophobia, which are intensifying in the economic crisis. To counter this we must follow the words of King: "Our only hope today lies in our ability to recapture the revolutionary spirit and go into a sometimes hostile world declaring eternal hostility to poverty, racism, and militarism."


Aren't Fatty and Bluey part of Islamophobia terrorist group
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
George Wallace was a candidate for the Democrat nomination
Ksolem

Come on, he could have been called a Democrat at the time

But by all standards he was a Right Wing Extremist racist with an Authoritarian bent on creating Fear

Just like Today's Right Wing Islamophobe Republicans
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
I don't think you know what an American Conservative is. Of course neither do any of the politicians, so those of us who "get it" are almost without a voice.

Cheers to you. I am very sad about the events in Norway where my father was born in Solem.


As Always, Mr. Solem speaks the rational truth.

I am not a "right-winger". I'm a conservative, with a streak of nationalistic pride that can be construed as similar to the douche-bag. But I would never condone those kind of actions. The killing of innocents is never right. It is murder, and wrong.

Don't confuse conservatives like myself with whack-jobs like this dude. And I'm pretty far right-wing. But this dude was to the right of me...

I think he was just crazy. His actions made no logical sense to his 'cause'. He wanted to protect his national pride by killing liberal countrymen? That leads to fascism. A one party state.

Fascism is not liberating, but condemning your state to failure. He hated Muzzies and killed liberally indoctrinated Norwegian kids. What an as#@&%e.

He should be put down like a biting dog. He will continue to spew his hate.

I hate to say it, but after lengthy interrogations and water-boardings...kill him.

He will spread his hate otherwise.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
Bluey
I will let your post enrage as is

You my friend, are a right winger neo-con

Water board him ?
You are also a sick puppy

I disagree with you completely
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:30pm PT
Why We Were Attacked in Norway

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jalees-rehman/why-we-were-attacked-in-n_b_907567.html

Breivik's comments are quite characteristic of the growing far-right political movements in Europe, therefore it is quite possible that the motives for his terrorist acts may have been in part influenced by this right-wing extremist ideology. Breivik's dislike for left-wing politicians may also explain why he chose a youth camp of the social democratic Labor Party as a target for his attack. The tragic irony is that in many ways, right-wing extremists in Europe who promote a culture of hatred against mostly Muslim immigrants are not too dissimilar from Muslim right wing extremists, who in turn try to promote a culture of hatred against "unbelievers." Both groups strongly resist the progressive-liberal values that are represented by the center-left political parties, both groups want to replace multiculturalism and tolerance of the "other" with a more homogeneous and traditional society, and members of both groups have shown that they are willing to use violent means to achieve their goals.

One of the biggest shocks to all of us was that these attacks occurred in Norway, which is characterized by an open and peaceful society. However, if one looks at it from the perspective of religious or political right-wing extremists, Norway is exactly the kind of country that would offend such extremists. The fact that the society in Norway is tolerant, peaceful, promotes progressive-liberal values, provides strong welfare support, while maintaining a high level of quality of life must be a thorn in the flesh of right-wing extremists. This is why the response to these horrifying events has to be cautious. When I heard the Norwegian Prime Minister Stoltenberg respond to the attacks by saying "You will not destroy us, you will not destroy our democracy and our idea for a better world," I felt a great sense of relief and some pride in being a progressive-liberal European. If the ultimate goal of right-wing extremists is to undermine our core values and try to force our hand by giving up the tolerant and open societies we have built in Europe, we cannot let them win.

It just sounds all to familiar to the American Right Wing Fox News listener type person that could be mentally unstable.
Why do we have to set them off with the Poison that the right wing media are allowed to get away with
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
You my friend, are a right winger neo-con

Wrong! Examine my ideologies further. I'm more of a conservative, Catholic, nationalist. Very similar to douche-bag murderer, but far from a Neo-con. Look to Fatty for that.

Water board him ?
You are also a sick puppy

I disagree with you completely


Hey, dipsh#t, do you want to stop another similar attack? He said there were 2 other cells similar to his.

You want to go 'easy' on this lunatic and risk another attack? Get the car battery out and battery cables.

These people need to be stopped. Whatever it takes. Like I said, this dude should face death penaly after we extract intel from him.

You say that's inhumane, I say having another 80 kids killed in cold blood is inhumane.

Stop it!
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
Tell us more about how we should deal with him

You seem to know all the good methods of dealing with people in humane ways

By all means, Keep digging...

IMO, prison is good enough for any criminal or right wing terrorist
If he said there are 2 other right wing hate group cells like his, we can get the info out w/out torture, as always
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
Why prison? why should he live when so many others have died?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:34pm PT
Because that is the law of their land. If they surrender the law in their times of greatest need then the law meant nothing to begin with.

DMT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:54pm PT
Goatboy at least had something useful to add, which is that thousands of children around the world die unnoticed every day, from disease, hunger, politics and violence. Generally those with other than white (pink) skins. All the more poignant in that the UN recently declared that famine once again stalks the Horn of Africa, and the Norwegian government immediately committed millions of dollars to famine relief. (The total is around $50 million, if I read it rightly.) And there is another famine in North Korea, due to the totalitarian regime's incompetence.

The arraignment of the murderer today was held in camera, due to security concerns, and he will be held for eight weeks before the next hearing. For the first four, he will be in solitary, having only contact with his lawyer. The police continue to investigate whether there were accomplices, and links to other terrorists. The murderer claims such things.

Credit: internet
Credit: internet

(Except when quoting another source, I refuse to identify the murderer by name.)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
Stories and photos of the young people who died at Utøya.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/norways-future-leaders-overflowed-with-idealism-to-make-a-better-world/article2109593/

Not for the faint of heart.

The death toll is now 68 there, 8 in Olso, for 76 total. There are still many missing. The dead include a 51 year old off-duty police officer who got his ten year old son to safety, then confronted the murderer. Trond Berntsen was the step-brother of Norway's crown princess. Two of the dead in Olso were members of the Storting (parliament).
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
Because that is the law of their land

It wasn't the law when Vidkun Quisling was put to death by order of the Norwegian Supreme Court (sentence pronounced by chief justice Erik Solem.)

Yes I have studied the controversy about that. Sometimes closure is a good thing. Death awaits each of us. Some beg for it...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
Kris, any relation? There seems to be a tiny place named Solem, near Namsos. My family's from near Tretten, though of course there are cousins all over.

Norway's post-war treatment of German war criminals and of collaborators, remains a subject of debate. It abolished capital punishment before the war. The government in exile, which could legitimately claim to be the de jure but not de facto government, passed decrees in 1941-42 that provided penalties for treason during the war, including reinstatement of capital punishment for high treason. Somewhat hypothetical then, but not after liberation in May 1945.

About 28,750 were arrested for crimes during the war, and very public trials held. In the end, 25 of the 30 Norwegians convicted of treason were executed by firing squad. Another 12 Germans were executed for war crimes by Norway, and three other Germans by the Allies. (Five Germans were executed in Poland for war crimes against Polish prisoners of war in Norway.) The court was within its powers to pass such sentences, but there was vocal public debate about whether Norway should have the death penalty at all. There was also the legal issue that the newly-elected Storting had not yet met to ratify the acts of the wartime government in exile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_purge_in_Norway_after_World_War_II

Norway's record during the war, and behaviour after the war, are still a matter of some debate. The subject recently resurfaced with the movie Max Manus, about a saboteur-hero who specialized in blowing up German ships. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Manus); He led a charmed life, although many of his comrades died, and many more civilians were killed by the Germans in retaliation. Norway suffered greatly in the war, although compared with Poland, Yugoslavia, Belarus or the Jews of Europe, relatively few died. The north was devastated during the German withdrawal of 1944 - 45.

One embarrassment is that Norwegian women who married or had babies by German soldiers were often mistreated after the war, sometimes persecuted. Although in many cases it was simply young people doing what they do. One of them was the mother of Anni-Frid Lyngstad, later a lead singer of ABBA. She was forced to emigrate to Sweden in 1946. The European Court of Human Rights later ruled in their favour.

(ABBA has refused to allow its songs to be played at meetings and rallies of right-wing parties.)
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Q9D4dcYng
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:50pm PT
Any relation? I am told so, an uncle of my father. The resemblance is siginificant.

Yes Solem is near Namsos, north of Trondhiem. I would like to visit there. My cousin did and she came back with beautiful pictures and stories.

This thing makes me very sad. Nothing else to say.

Pate

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:01am PT
bluering, you're being an ignorant overall wearing 3rd grade drop out buck toothed cousin f*#king as#@&%e again.

someone should waterboard your son, or wife, then tell us how much you're still into it.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:03am PT
Thinking of the families and the country of Norway... it's heartbreaking...

music...no words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mty_PAkcOEc
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:13am PT
Thanks, Nita.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:42am PT
No matter how newt gingrich, sarah palin, bloody glenn beck or for that matter any right winger dances around the subject, I think it is obvious that the xenophobic, nationalistic and survival of the fittest values that they proudly promote as moral and right do indeed breed such sentiment as drove this guy to kill. Of course the sentiment is seldom acted upon, but the argument that there is no direct link between the rogue actor and the sentiment is specious at best. There is nothing new here and there is much evidence throughout history to support this link. No matter what the supposed differences exist in politics, any tribe that steeps itself in authoritarian dogma, from stalinist Russia to the Taliban to the current freaky Republican cult in the USA is a breeding ground for extremist flakes intend on creating and pursuing enemies. The right will say the left is just as guilty but this is not true. If Maoist China was ever"leftist" it sure as hell didn't stay that way. It established itself as an authoritarian state to rival Nazi Germany. The economic system isn't really the issue. It is the politics of power and subjugation of the citizenry that creates the authoritarian regime.

Of course this isn't the right wingers intent. They want everyone just to get along just like everyone else - just on their terms and anyone who thinks otherwise can expect the wrath of god.



http://thetyee.ca/Life/2011/07/26/NorwayNightmare/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:38am PT
Last Wednesday, Texas executed a man by lethal injection. The man, Mark Stroman, murdered two men in late 2001, and seriously injured a third. All three worked at convenience stores. Stroman was a white supremacist, and was enraged by the terrorist attacks of September 2001. He murdered Vasudev Patel, from India, and Waqar Hasan,a Pakistani immigrant. The third man, Rais Bhuiyan from Bangladesh, was shot in the face and lost an eye. Stroman thought that they were all Arabs and Muslims - none were Arab, and only two of them were Muslims.

You may ask why I mention this. The reason is that the survivor, Rais Bhuiyan, petitioned to have the execution stopped, saying that "Killing him is not the solution. He's learning from his mistake. If he's given a chance, he's able to reach out to others and spread that message to others." Bhuiyan said his religious beliefs as a Muslim required him to forgive the man.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/21/texas-executes-911-revenge-killer

In a similar vein, the sons of Mohandas Gandhi called for the death sentences of the conspirators who murdered their father to be commuted, as did his friend Jawaharlal Nehru, although to no avail.

There are other ways to react to violence and hatred than with more of the same. Certainly Norway is a fortunate country, perhaps better able to live its principles than most. It is materially wealthy, fairly homogenous, has strong values, and is a little protected from the world, by geography if nothing else. It would be all to easy after what has happened for it to strike out blindly. It would solve nothing, and no one would learn anything.

Yes, there are legitimate questions about whether the Norwegian police should have been more alert to terrorist threats, whether generally, from right-wing extremists, or otherwise. And in particular whether they knew of should have known of the threat from the murderer, and whether they could have reacted more effectively to the news of shootings at Utøya. That should come out in the eventual enquiry, which is likely to be thorough, and not tainted by politics. And perhaps there is a need for a constructive public debate there about immigration, values, and assimilation. Not simple subjects.

Could have, would have, should have speculation doesn't add to the discussion. Norway, and indeed most liberal democracies around the world, have rejected liberal gun laws. (Their police mostly aren't armed.) Setting aside the rhetoric, their view is that increased gun ownership destabilizes society, and leads to greater violence. Whichever is the chicken and whichever the egg, guns (especially handguns) and increased violence go together. Also, that ownership of handguns doesn't reduce crime, or allow the public to protect itself.

Imposing US beliefs and ideology on that discussion isn't productive, both due to it being hypothetical, and because Norway is different. It can be difficult to understand the perspectives of others, but try.

In the case of the massacre, would you have armed children and teenagers against an unimaginable threat, and would that have helped?

It is surprising that the murderer didn't kill himself, but I guess he was hoping to have a pulpit from which to preach hatred. Doesn't look like it will happen. It is also somewhat surprising that he wasn't killed by the police, given how heavily armed he was, that a special tactics group was sent, and that it would have been all too easy to dispense rough 'justice'. Perhaps he didn't resist?
raymond phule

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:58am PT

It is surprising that the murderer didn't kill himself, but I guess he was hoping to have a pulpit from which to preach hatred. Doesn't look like it will happen. It is also somewhat surprising that he wasn't killed by the police, given how heavily armed he was, that a special tactics group was sent, and that it would have been all too easy to dispense rough 'justice'. Perhaps he didn't resist?

He didn't resist being captured.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:09am PT
Unnskyld if this has been discussed but I find it beyond my comprehension that
the police said it would have taken them longer to "requisition" a chopper than
to drive to Utøya. I know the crime rate is lower than low there but there
are emergencies other than crime that require a speedy response, especially
if the police have to requisition a chopper. That is living with one's
head in the sand.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:29pm PT
Lock him up for good.
Give him no voice.
Feed him with a stick.









Anders,
people actually still play Abba at "meetings"??
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
I like what Piton says. I wish him no contact with others so he'll never have a voice. A number for a name and... May he never have a grave stone, anything that will allow his name to exist, ever.

Anastasia
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
No matter how newt gingrich, sarah palin, bloody glenn beck or for that matter any right winger dances around the subject, I think it is obvious that the xenophobic, nationalistic and survival of the fittest values that they proudly promote as moral and right do indeed breed such sentiment as drove this guy to kill.

I don't think its obvious at all. How about connecting the dots for me... from Newt to the dude in Norway.

No short cuts. I call BULLSH#T.

DMT
dirtbag

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:45pm PT
I'm not going to suggest a link with those folks listed above, Dingus.

However, there is evidence that he was a fan of prominent American Islamophobes, notably blogger Pamela Geller (who does have some influence in American conservative circles):

http://www.slate.com/id/2299967/

Is Geller to blame? 99% no, but at the same time we cannot pretend that such rantings by her, and others, including presidential candidate Herman Cain, aren't at the very least a bit reckless.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
I don't think its obvious at all. How about connecting the dots for me... from Newt to the dude in Norway.

I do so love your innocently disingenuous side...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
DMT - google Authoritarian personality.

Tell me something - you see no parallels between christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism? Republicans and the Taliban?

By the way, i don't have a particular hate on for authoritarianism. Its a great way to run certain businesses, like a war for instance. However running a civilized society that way is for deviant nightmares who have no care for anybody but thier own tribe, whatever that may be.
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
What do Barrack Obama and the Norway killer have in common?

























































They are both Christian.


Skip
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
According to the dude skipt, and i'd say he has a point, the killer is not a christian despite what he claims. And obama... do you think he has proven himself to be no christian?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
DMT - I just looked up their theme song, or maybe its their national anthem once they get their caliphate or shining city on the hil established.


From the words of Frank Zappa, social and political critic extraordinaire:


DUMB ALL OVER (A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE)

Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now our behaviour is dumb
And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race or the other whatever from the face of the planet altogether
They call it "The Earth" which is a dumb kinda name but they named it right 'cause we behave the same
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over, yes we are, dumb all over, near and far, dumb all over, black 'n white, people, we is not wrapped tight
And nerds on the left, nerds on the right
Religious fanatics on the air every night, sayin' the bible tells the story and makes the details sound real gory about what to do if the geeks over there don't believe in the book we got over here
You can't run a race without no feet
And pretty soon there won't be no street for dummies to jog on or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics can make it be all gone
I mean it won't blow up and disappear, it'll just look ugly for a thousand years
You can't run a country by a book of religion
Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgeon of foolish rules of ancient date, designed to make you all feel great while you fold, spindle and mutilate those unbelievers from a neighbouring state
To arms, to arms
Hooray! That's great, two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate they ship the parts to mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get down)
Not his, not hers but what the hey
The good book says, "It's gotta be that way"
But their book says, "Revenge the crusades"
With whips 'n chains and hand grenades
Two arms, two arms
Have another and another
Our Cod says, "There ain't no other"
Our Cod says, "It's all ok"
Our god says "This is the way"
It says in the book, "Burn and destroy"
And repent and redeem and revenge and deploy and rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'Cause they don't go for what's in the book and that makes 'em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up and stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb to poof them out of existence while leaving their real estate just where we need it to use again for temples in which to praise our god, 'cause he can really take care of business
And when his humble TV servant with humble white hair and humble glasses and a nice brown suit and maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls, tells us our god says it's ok to do this stuff, then we gotta do it
'Cause if we don't do it we ain't "Gwine up to hebbin"
Depending on which book you're using at the time
Can't use theirs, it don't work, it's all lies, gotta use mine
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night, everyday
Hey, we can't really be dumb if we're just following god's orders
Well let's get serious, god knows what he's doin'
He wrote this book here and the book says, "He made us all to be just like him"
So, if we're dumb, then god is dumb and maybe even a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
DMT - google Authoritarian personality.

Tell me something - you see no parallels between christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism? Republicans and the Taliban?

What's the Islamic Fundamentalism and the Taliban have to do with Newt and the dude in Norway? I am not seeing the connection.

I see any sort of entrenched fundamentalism as the enemy of free breathing peoples and I don't care from what political spectrum such fundamentalism arises, left, right, center, whatever.

I see plenty of fundamentalism from the American left, plays out on this board daily.

DMT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Credit: Aftenposten
Yesterday's memorial in Oslo. The street shown is Karl Johan, which is the main street leading from the central station, past the Storting (parliament) to the royal palace. The number of people present yesterday was as great or greater than any previous occasion, which is saying a lot - Karl Johan is the location of the annual national day festivities on May 17th, and also saw the Liberation Day parade on June 7th, 1945.

Credit: Aftenposten
The condolences written in a book at the embassy in Washington, by a well-known American who writes left-handed. Perhaps he saw the post about it yesterday.

There will apparently be a national memorial early next week, followed by funerals for all those who died.

The murderer's motives may never be entirely clear, even to him. It seems safe to say that he drew inspiration from right-wing, xenophobic, racist, and "Christian" sources - often combined. Some of them in the US. Whether he had any real links with any of them, or accomplices, remains to be seen. Despite what our mothers told us, names and words can hurt others, sometimes badly. If his motives were in part based on the inflammatory and poisonous rhetoric of others, they share some of the blame. Freedom of speech is good, but doesn't extend to inciting others to hatred and violence, overtly or implicitly.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
I see any sort of entrenched fundamentalism as the enemy of free breathing peoples

Then you do see my point. My contention is with application and percieved entitlement to power. I don't give a flying f*#k what anybody would like to believe in spiritually or otherwise, so long as one confines it to themselves. These f*#kwads see themselves as entitled to apply their code of ethics on the rest of us, regardless of democratic process, based on their unwavering belief in their righteousness.

I can see how some may think i'm making a bit of a stretch of logic in the link to the republicans, but i suggest it it a matter of degree not sentiment. Fundamentally, all these guys believe its their way or the highway. Left or right truly has nothing to do with it. It has to do with unwavering loyalty to ideology and the righteous insistence on their typically god given right to apply it. That is precisely why democracy and all the necessary factors required to support it, is of vital importance to a civil society.

Humility is absent.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
Another new low from Glen Beck. This idiot is making sure the the rest of the world knows how rediculous the far right is in the US. Or maybe the far right has disowned him and his nazi fetish already too.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895169/ns/world_news-europe/

The people of Norway need our support you boneheads.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
to a civil society.

There's the rub. Comes down to cooperative vs. predatory. Some would mold us all into predators - take what you can when you can, let the other predators feed themselves.

Others would mold us all communist pink and demand everything be done for the good of the whole, regardless of individual desires.

I say fundamentalism in either aspect is not good and leads directly to conflict and war. Its not a republican thing, sorry I don't buy it.

But cheers anyway
DMT
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
I agree with you but i would say that the repugs are riding on that carpet
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
There is now at least one FaceBook page with a collection of information and photos of the tragedy and its aftermath, and where people express their sympathies.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Norway-My-most-sincere-condolences-to-the-people-of-Norway/259681244045283?ref=ts&sk=wall

The person originating and moderating is Antonio Correia, who appears to live in Britain.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 26, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
American Republican party = the party of fundamentalists...Bachman, Palin, evangelicals, Christian right voting block, KKK rejects who live in the South and to many other wackos to list....

So whether or not you buy it Dingus is irrelevant because it is a FACT!

And they aren't riding any carpet...they are the carpet because the carpet is ALL they have left.
THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO OFFER.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
American Republican party = the party of fundamentalists...Bachman, Palin, evangelicals, Christian right voting block, KKK rejects who live in the South and to many other wackos to list....

No it's not. And you're using this as a political tool, dude. I'm a right-winger.

You're making ridiculous affiliations.

Kinda like me saying all people who like clean air are ELF supporters and need to be watched. Or Ted Kazinski. Or the SDS or Weather Underground.

Think, people. This guy was psychotic and is a murderer. Bachman, Palin, and even the idiots in the Westboro Church do not condone killing innocents. Don't try to draw ridiculous parallels and say it's a right-wing thing. It's an extremist thing. Kinda like Islam. Only a somewhat small minority are radical enough to kill civis for their cause. Not the whole religion.

Don't castigate the whole movement because of one or a few asshats! It's just illogical when you delve into it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
Guys, please save it for another thread.
sullly

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
Best to you Lollie and Mighty Hiker. I'm embarrassed by how this thread has been poisoned.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
Guys, please save it for another thread.


Do we really need another thread? I think everybody here sympathizes and feels remorse, but it's a wider discussion of how this happens and how to prevent it.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
Photographs, names and short biographies of about 1/3 of the dead.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/norway-dead-interactive

I'd had the impression that the Norwegian police wouldn't be releasing the names until early next week, but maybe that changed, or The Guardian has other sources. The interactive graphic is set up so that they can add the other victims. The youngest dead was 14. Several bodies haven't been found yet, and they continue to search the lake.

The exchange of text messages between a 16 year old girl on the island and her mother, from after the shootings started until the murderer surrendered.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/26/norway-attacks-survivor-texts-mother
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
I'd had the impression that the Norwegian police wouldn't be releasing the names until early next week, but maybe that changed, or The Guardian has other sources. The interactive graphic is set up so that they can add the other victims. The youngest dead was 14. Several bodies haven't been found yet, and they continue to search the lake.

The exchange of text messages between a 16 year old girl on the island and her mother, from after the shootings started until the murderer surrendered.

I have no words to describe this kind of evil in the guise of being a 'Christian'. There really are none, except that he has defiled a peaceful religion and dragged it into the mud.

In a way I'm a realist/sadist when I try to mentally play-out how this gut did this. And when I have mental images of him in a police uniform rounding up the kids, and then willfully gunning them down, as many as possible...I get sick and upset with the human race and the inherent evil in some people.

Same thing with the throat-cutting videos that Al-Qaeda was doing for a while. I made the mistake of watching a couple.

You have to sit there in horror and ask yourself,"How can somebody actually do that to another human being and walk away fine with it?"

It's evil. That's the only way I see it. Most people CANNOT do that. They won't.

This gut in Norway was similar. Just inhumane. Evil.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
There are still another 2 Right Wing Christain Hate Group Cells we have to Find and Waterboard
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Collie-Rad-O! (FC to be exact)
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
" except that he has defiled a peaceful religion and dragged it into the mud"

Christianity a "peaceful religion"...that's rich! Do your homework dude...
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
Bluey says to me

Hey, dipsh#t, do you want to stop another similar attack? He said there were 2 other cells similar to his.

You want to go 'easy' on this lunatic and risk another attack?

Did we get the info on the other 2 right wing Christian Hate Group Cells yet

We should waterboard him, and then all the rest of them once we get them. right

Just like you wanted

He should be put down like a biting dog. He will continue to spew his hate.

I hate to say it, but after lengthy interrogations and water-boardings...kill him.

He will spread his hate otherwise.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
The events are being referred to in some Norwegian news media as "22/7".

An article reporting on how what happened, and Norway's reaction to it, has been reported in major foreign news media, and about the reaction in world cities.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4184266.ece

(Sorry, only in Norwegian, but very positive. Not surprisingly, Fox News and the Wall Street Journal are the two sources that have attempted an ideological twist, and are being ignored.)

And an article about some of the young people who were killed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/26/norway-shooting-survivors-honour-activists
QITNL

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
I'm deeply impressed by the dignified and measured response to the tragedy by the government, authorities and citizens of Norway. From what I've been reading during the aftermath, they are a very noble and enlightened society. Along with my sympathy, I offer my admiration.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
(Glen Beck) states(on & off the record)that he is a Mormon. There is a vast difference. this is not the place or time to discuss it, but for starters/instance, they(LDS)do not believe that JC is Divine(God).


Inaccurate statement, thaDood.

I grew up within Mormonism and continue to be a member. The Divinity of Christ is indoctrinated from early childhood on. That is fact, sir.

Some believers seem to think they've been awarded unique and solitary ownership of the title Christian.

Glenn Beck grew up Roman Catholic, attending Catholic schools and was Catholic most of his life. He married a Mormon woman and converted. No disrespect to Catholics but I question whether he “understood” EITHER Catholocism OR Mormonism.

Mr Beck may be on an obstinate, hardheaded path to excommunication. Some Utah newspapers have suggested it… with many readers agreeing. There’s even a Facebook account: Excommunicate Glenn Beck. One contributor posting:

”Beck is a socialpathic, ammoral demagogue and a threat to society. He SHOULD and MUST be excommunicated for his public denouncement/rejection of Christ's Gospel of justice and mercy to the oppressed. If Jesus could call Peter, his chief disciple, "Satan" , how infinitely more should this perversion of humanity be so called.”


Sincere apologies for diverting the discussion.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:58am PT
The Norwegian government's official on-line book of condolences is at http://blogg.regjeringen.no/protokoll/

It's in Norwegian, but pretty straightforward. Click on your cursor in the box where it says "skriv din kommentar her", under Prime Minister Stoltenberg's comments, then type away. Postings are mainly in Norwegian and English, but many other languages also. Click on "vis flere kommentarer" at the bottom to see more.

The site must be monitored for inappropriate posts, but there's nothing specific about that. Pseudonyms may be used.

I've refrained from saying much about the Norwegian reaction to Fox News and Glenn Beck. Let's just say that they are repelled by both, and they couldn't care less what religion Beck has - if any. Whatever he may say, his actions indicate that he is not a meaningful follower of any religion.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43911634/ns/world_news-europe/t/chilling-text-exchange-provides-window-norway-terror/

Speechless....

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
The search for bodies in Tyrifjorden continues, but it sounds like there may not be many more found. Only one is now known to be missing. 400 to 500 were on Utøya when the murderer arrived. (There hasn't been anything on how many were injured, and the police won't issue an official list of the dead and wounded for a few days.)

Prime Minister has announced an independent public enquiry into the tragedy, including "whether more could have been done both to prevent the attacks and respond to them".

"I think what we have seen is that there is going to be one Norway before and one Norway after 22 July," he said. "But I hope and also believe that the Norway we will see after will be more open, a more tolerant society than what we had before."

94% of Norwegians approve generally of the government and Stoltenberg's response, and 82% specifically approve of what he said in his speech on Saturday.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Takk-Jens-Stoltenberg/255147837828656

There was a bomb scare at the Oslo's central station today, which led to it being evacuated. The innumerable items placed in memorials around Norway, particularly in front of Oslo cathedral, are being examined to ensure they are innocent.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/27/norway-victims-named-search-continues

The murderer, calling himself "Andrew Berwick", sent his rambling 1,500 page "manifesto" to 1,003 people by e-mail about 90 minutes before the bomb exploded in Oslo. Many were outside Norway, but all have been identified, and presumably many will be having a visit from the police.
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
Lolli,

Nothing can excuse the madness of this atrocity, but Europe is turning against Islam, look at the legislation that has been passed. This Anders guy should be waterboarded to find out if there were conspirators.


The evil one
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Jennie,

There is only ONE God. Not three Gods in heaven.

edit: If you wish to discuss it, let's take it over to Dr.F.'s Religion/Science, etc. thread.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
Yes Fatty
Waterboard all the Christian Right Wingers to see what other atrocities they have planned.
They are worse than the Muslims, who haven't terrorised Norway
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
Lolli,

Well, the Swiss people say you are wrong:

The minaret controversy in Switzerland refers to construction of minarets, which has been subject to legal and political controversy in Switzerland during the 2000s and a Swiss referendum regarding this issue. In a November 2009 referendum, a constitutional amendment banning the construction of new minarets was approved by 57.5% of the participating voters.[1] Only four of the 26 Swiss cantons,[2] mostly in the French-speaking part of Switzerland, opposed the initiative


The evil one
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
FatTrad, Craig, etc: Please don't be rude, irrelevant, or both.

FatTrad: If Norway was to waterboard anyone, it would be right-wingers, including people like many of your associates, if not you. Luckily it's a civilized country. FYI, the killer's first name is about as common in Norway as "Jeffrey" is in the USA. It is derived from the Greek "Andreas", which means "man", and in English would usually be Andrew.

FatTrad: Whatever the Swiss may be doing, Prime Minister Stoltenberg has clearly spoken out in favour of tolerance and democracy, and is strongly supported by the people of Norway. I'm sure there will be a constructive discussion in Norway of these matters over the next months, and Norwegians will decide what's best for their country, in context of its needs and values. There may be a need for more effort to assimilate immigrants - many of whom are UN refugees - but your ignorant hatred and blind support of Israel wouldn't be welcome there.

Lolli: Right on, as usual. I went to the consulate today to sign the book of condolences. An emotional scene.
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
Lolli, Mighty Hiker,

Perhaps Norway will be the very tolerant nation, but it's neighbors in Denmark seem to think differently:

Denmark's problem with Muslims
Martin Burcharth
Published: Sunday, February 12, 2006

There seems to be some surprise that the Danish people and their government are standing behind the Jyllands-Posten newspaper and its decision to publish drawings of the Prophet Muhammad last fall. Aren't Danes supposed to be unusually tolerant and respectful of others?

Not entirely. Denmark's reputation as a nation with a long tradition of tolerance toward others - one solidified by its rescue of Danish Jews from deportation to Nazi concentration camps in 1943 and by the high levels of humanitarian aid it provides today - is something of a myth.

We Danes have grown increasingly xenophobic over the years. The publication of the cartoons had little to do with generating a debate about self-censorship and freedom of expression. It can be seen only in the context of a climate of pervasive hostility toward anything Muslim in Denmark.

There are more than 200,000 Muslims in Denmark, a country with a population of 5.4 million. A few decades ago, Denmark had no Muslims at all. Not surprisingly, Islam has come to be viewed by many as a threat to the survival of Danish culture.

For 20 years, Muslims have been denied a permit to build mosques in Copenhagen. And there are no Muslim cemeteries in Denmark, so the bodies of Muslims have to be flown back to their home countries for proper burial.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/opinion/12iht-edoped.html


This is probably not the right thread for this given the tragedy, but I'm bringing the reality. MH, you are right assimilation would be wonderful and we seem to be doing pretty well in the US, better than Europe.



the evil one
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
Jeff, you are posting five year old articles, about a different country. Can't you have enough respect to keep that crap to your fantasy "Clash" threads?
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
Big man, pig man, Haha charade you are...
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
Mighty Hiker,

Several people here, including yourself, went after the "right wingers", so NO. Seems that 57.5% of the Swiss population are "right wingers". Too bad Norway doesn't have the death penalty for this guy and anyone that helped him, I'd feel the same way if he attacked Muslim Norwegians.

The evil one

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
I admire the Norwegians; sure seem to be some strong willed and principled people. They don't abandon those principles in tough times, curtailing civil rights, over reacting and inventing new government agencies to leverage and take advantage of fear or panic (unlike some people I know). Instead they seem steadfast in their resolve and as a people seem to be drawing closer together.

Every Norwegian I ever met went out of her way to roll out the welcome mat and seemed intrigued to meet and talk to an American. And it goes without saying, to a person, they could speak my language but I could not speak theirs. Didn't seem to matter to them.

DMT
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
Seems that peaceful Norway may not have been that peaceful:

Sunday, March 14, 2010Norway: Muslims attack Jews in school
Norway: Muslims attack Jews in school

In a related story, via UNT and the Fria Nyheter blog:

Sweden Democrats Youth group (SDU) representatives were attacked in a school in Uppsala last week. One student, Kevin Racsha, said: I think that everybody should have his say. But at the same time they provoke me because they try to make immigrants look bad.

Erik Almqvist of the SDU reported on twitter that they were attacked by 20 immigrant students and threatened that they'll be halal slaughtered.


-----


Via Tundra Tabloids, who has much more. I re-worked the Google translation:

The synagogue in Oslo has just as many members as the synagogue in Malmö. A year ago NRK started to check how widespread antisemitic attitudes - Jew hatred - were among Norwegian Muslims. Jew-hatred means hate against Jews because they are Jews.

NRK spoke with many Jewish parents who tell of Jew hatred against their children. Nobody dared speak with their name and image and they were therefore anonymized.

A Jewish father says that his son was on his way home from school when he was stopped by a gang of older boys:

"They asked: 'aren't you a Jew?', to which he answered yes. Then he was physically taken and hung in the woods because he was a Jew. He managed to get himself lose, how he doesn't know today and ran home," says the father.

Harassment from Muslim boys has become so bad that the family fled the district to another place. But the children weren't let alone there either.

NRK spoke with the teachers in high schools with many Muslim students. None of the teachers dared to be interviewed. They are afraid of reprisals from the students and were therefore anonymized.

Teacher 1, female:

"There's a notorious bullying of Jews. Everything from jokes to public death threats. "It says in the Koran that you should kill Jews, all proper Muslims hate Jews. Jews will be killed if they come here to this school," the students say. To praise Hitler for what he did to the Jews also get repeated by students at my school. The worst of this is that Jew-hatred has become completley legitimate among large groups of students of Muslim background."

Teacher 2, male:

"I see Jew-hatred particularly in social-studies class. Students say the Jews control everything, the entire West is controlled by Jews. Some say also that they admire Hitler because he killed Jews. 'The attack on the Twin Towers in New York September 11, 2001, it was the Jews who were behind it'. In my class things are such that if somebody says they support terrorism, there's some who protest. But if somebody expresses Jew-hatred, nobody protests."

Teacher 3, female:

"Several students snicker when I speak of the Holocaust. A boy stood up and ordered me to stop speaking of Jews and the Holocaust. Most of these youth are born and raised in Norway. I think it's shocking that it's possible to grow up in Norway with such attitudes."

Teacher 4, male:

"F*cking Jew' is a much used curse in class. If I were Jewish I would have felt extremely insulted. These statements are a big problem."


The teachers NRK spoke with had the impression that students in Norwegian school get many of their attitudes from radio and TV broadcasts via satellite.


Source: NRK (Norwegian



The evil one
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
Jeff, whether or not he was mentally ill in the medico-legal sense, the killer was motivated by a variety of beliefs, sources and ideologies. Anti-Islam. Racist. Anti-women. And on and on. But the fact is that most of them were right-wing, often far right-wing, in their orientation. Full of hatred, violence and evil. Some from the US, a home of extreme right-wing rhetoric, hate and violence. You can twist and spin it all you like, to no avail. I did little more than to report the fact.

And, as far as the murderer was concerned, he was killing Muslims. But the main element is that he hated, and as a result devastated Norway. The details aren't important.

Your insistence on importing your distorted world view into this is inappropriate and unwelcome. I went to the Norwegian Centre for Holocaust and Genocide Studies when I was there a year ago. It opened in 2006. And I have a Jewish friend who lives in Bergen. Perhaps I should check with her and her partner about what the real situation is? http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memorials/oslo/
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
There ya go pig man, big man show these sheep who you are....
The charade you are....
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
Anders,

In my last three posts I have not posted my views. It seems that Europe and Norway have plenty of racists, well beyond the killer madman and his friends.

Face the facts, 57.5% of the Swiss voted against Islam, some Muslim children in Norway seem to be racist and the Danes seem to be racist.


Your mental picture of peaceful Norway is distorted.


The evil one
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Jul 27, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
There ya go pig man, big man show these sheep who you are....
The charade you are....

awesome, i'm listening to animals right now!
Timid TopRope

Social climber
Paradise, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
In my last three posts I have not posted my views.

That's true. In your last three posts you continue to be a dick politicizing a national tragedy. You have yet again dropped another notch on my esteem meter.

America could learn a lot from Norway but unfortunately our national hubris prevents such discourse.

Lolli, I send my heartfelt condolences to you and your country.

All but my immediate family still live in Switzerland. Pretty close to fifty fifty between my liberal and conservative relatives. The conservative ones probably dislike minarets and star of davids equally.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
Police now estimate that 200,000 attended the commemorative rally in Oslo on Monday. 76 died in the attacks, 96 were treated in hospital for injuries - many continue to be - and one person is still missing.

They are considering whether to charge the murderer with crimes against humanity, which carries a maximum sentence of 30 years, instead of terrorism, for which the sentence is 21 years. In either case, the sentence can be extended in five year increments if there is any risk of repeat offences, so the practical likelihood is that he will be in jail for the rest of his life. It seems unlikely that he would survive long if ever released, even in Norway.

His defence lawyer - probably state appointed - is Geir Lippestad. He is a fairly high profile lawyer, which is how the murderer probably knew Lippestad's name. However, he is also a member of the Labour Party, which bore the brunt of the attacks.

“Someone has to do this job,” the lawyer told a news conference. Mr. Lippestad, who received Mr. Breivik’s request through the police the day after Friday’s bombings and shootings, said he spent 10 to 12 hours making up his mind before agreeing to accept the case as a matter of principle. “My first reaction was that this was too difficult,” he said. “But then I sat down with family, friends and colleagues and we said that today is the time to think about democracy, and if I said no to this job, then I would say no to democracy.”

Which is exactly how democracy and the rule of law ought to work - everyone, however apparently loathsome, is entitled to a competent defence.

Lippestad knows that the case will involve a lot of pressure, in particular from the news media.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/reluctant-lawyer-agrees-to-defend-norway-killer/article2110303/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:11am PT
A small boy lays a flower at a memorial opposite Utøya.
Credit: Getty Images

(See also previous, new, post. I wanted this photo here.)

weschrist: check your ST e-mail.
raymond phule

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:09pm PT

In my last three posts I have not posted my views. It seems that Europe and Norway have plenty of racists, well beyond the killer madman and his friends.

This is obviously true but what is your point?
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
raymond,

My point was that not all conservatives or republicans share the same value system as the Norway madman.



The evil one
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
Not all republicans or conservatives are violent.

Not all liberals or democrats are pacifists.

Not all whites are rich, blacks are poor, or the culture of one country/religions/...superior to another.

Why must we see the world in black and white? I'm good, anyone who doesn't share my identical value system = evil?

I know most of the poking is in "fun". There was no fun for those Norewgian children hunted and slaughtered like animals for 90 minutes while the 911 operators focused on the down town distraction.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
MH had it right to begin with - focus on the victims and Norway, and let the trolls rot in hell.

DMT
BES1'st

climber
USA
Jul 28, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
With all the news the stories show more and more inconsistencies.

I read a editorial today noting that we wont be hearing from Anders
until he is about 53. It said he will not be getting life nor death
and their courts frown upon sequential sentencing hence his sentence
of 21 years runs concurrent. It said he released a 150 some page
Manifesto of sort posted on the internet. If anybody can shrink it
down to why he did this and picked these targets please advise.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 28, 2011 - 03:44pm PT
Unless there is now zero honor in criminals he will be quickly killed in jail- hopefully in a most gruesome way.
No damn way he does this to children and lives....
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 28, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
I don't understand this will to kill him off so quickly. What for?
Death is too easy. If he's dead he escapes.

If he doesn't get death, he gets the "penalty" of Norwegian "prison." Did you see the pictures of Norwegian "prisons" posted earlier in this thread?--as the poster noted, they look somewhat better than typical US budget hotel accommodations, more like a nice mid-range bed and breakfast!

No matter how "enlightened" Norwegians are, perhaps that's going a little too far?
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 28, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Does it really matter what kind of prison treatment he gets?
NO

Only the revenge seekers need more.

He is out of society, that is all that matters,
please Stop harping on his prison treatment.
It only shows a lack of civility

After 21 years in prison No matter what his treatment is
He will not kill again, that can be assured
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
After 21 years in prison No matter what his treatment is
He will not kill again, that can be assured

Really. How?
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 28, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
YOU MAKE SURE that he can't buy weapons

Boy, that was a tough one
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
YOU MAKE SURE that he can't buy weapons

Boy, that was a tough one

If he figured he might be out in 21 years he could easily have a weapons cache hidden away somewhere. This guy is a good planner. I think the bomb was a diversionary attack to distract the police so he would have more time to kill children.

I am against the death penalty in nearly all cases. But sadly once in a great while someone commits an act which I think rises to the level of a capital crime. I don’t see it as a punishment or an escape, but rather a way to close the event. Speaking for myself it would be hard enough to have to try and pick up the pieces and move on in life after losing a child in such a senseless and bizarre act of violence, but to have to do so knowing every minute that the killer, who so carefully planned his mayhem, is wiling away his hours in relative comfort and could be released in a few years would be even more difficult.

I wonder how the parents of the slain children would poll on this question on a secret ballot.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 28, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
Go on

Rant on..
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
Go on?

You lost me there, Doc...
thaDood

Mountain climber
PortaLedga OnzaKaleefa
Jul 28, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
"What for?"

Hell!

He should have done a little more research on that topic himself since he "claims" to be a "Christian".

I am not saying what should happen to him(on this earth)one way or another, but if you/we could see or experience for one second, what he has to look forward to for eternity we would never be the same again. Not attempting to start a debate or proove anything(obviously can't)or drag the Bible, or Christianity, or any twisted misrepresentations of either into it. Just telling you what I believe, scripture states, & I have personal revelations of.

Regardles, "Vengence is Mine saith the Lord!" He will have his day...sooner or later.

edit: The above was more in response to "death is to easy". The actual act of putting someone to death maybe "to easy", but not what comes after. You can only kill the body, not the soul. The body can only take so much before it does. Not so with the soul...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
Go on

Rant on..

Nice edit. You call my post a rant?? Of all people...
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
The Dukakis moment.
Where the left loses generations and we end up with Bush
This is a real issue with the left- where they get lost in their own heads and forget reality.
Easy to forget when they are not honestly faced with the real life choices.

I'm pro capital punishment.
And I am pro vigilante justice in extreme cases.
Sometimes the system doesn't work.

And fair dues to fatrad also.
He is right.
This utopian Norwegian idea you guys are trying to pass off is bullsh#t.
It is no more true than all Muslims are terrorists.
Perhaps time for Lolli to stop with her horrible stereotype thread?
There is zero truth in stereotypes.

I'm 100 percent Scandinavian and my great grand parents left Norway 100 years ago because of injustice and because there was not enough by half.
I am a child of the maybe the most violent culture that has ever lived on the planet- Vikings.
Do you not see irony in all this ridiculous Norwegian peace talk?

Like Canada they can afford to be peaceful because they have over flowing riches and.resources and there is enough to share. Start cutting land by half and riches by half and then see how long the peace and higher hierarchy of values lasts.

Same goes for the liberal who sees his kids blown away by a cold hearted logical killer.

Reading Zinn's History of America right now.
Everyone should read the first chapter.
Everyone would have a better idea who we really are and why we are probably ultimately f*#ked.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
Skis against the Atom, by Knut Haukelid, is a first hand account of the Norwegian resistance effort to prevent Germany from using Norways extensive hydro power plants to produce heavy water for their atomic bomb program.

Those people were Heroes.

Off topic I know, but only sort of.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 28, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage

Cool story...thanks
shady

Trad climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
Mighty Hiker..
This is going to hurt, but be brave. It's for a good cause.

My grandfather had a fireplace and hearth that had living lichen on it, it was beautiful.
He would nourish it by spraying beer on it a few times a year. He enjoyed darker brews, but this might finally be a good use for Bud-lite.
Thank you for your restoration efforts.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
Cool story...thanks

The bit about sinking the ferry is incomplete. As I recall from the book, the village was on one side of the Fiord and the place where many villagers worked was on the other, so the ferry carried many people to and from work each day. Haukelid, when he planted the bomb on board, knew he could not warn the villagers because if they did not show up to ride to work the Germans would know something was up.

He knowingly sent a boatload of his fellow countrymen to their death in order to defeat the German effort to get out their heavy water.

Hard choices.

Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 28, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
Breivik isn't afraid of death.

Anyone who single handedly undertook nine years of disciplined and meticulous planning and preparation and then executed the plan to success, despite all the apparent dangers along the way, is not overwhelmed with the fear of confronting death. He transformed himself into a kind of revolutionary warrior, in his own words a Crusading knight.

I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding about what went down and I'm trying to make sense of it myself. I've just started to skim Breivik's manifesto (‘2083 A European Declaration of Independence’). The copy I downloaded unfortunately has no table of contents. A large section of it appears to be an examination of Western European cultural, religious, and political history. My first impression is that it made me cognizant of how very little I know about Western European history or Islamic history in general (I'm a college trained artist in NYC so my most familiar history is art history, but I couldn't name a handful of Islamic artists if my life depended on it). My ignorance thus complicates the reading. Nonetheless, there's no doubt that the DNA of Europe's history has encoded the modern world.

He identifies in part with early Western European Christian history. As an example, the dispensation of Indulgences by the church reduced one's temporal punishment due for past sins. Crusaders were offered plenary indulgence by the Pope (recall that many believe abuse of Indulgences to be the major precipitant of the Protestant Reformation). I think(?) Breivik believes that he awaits Martyrdom, and that his sacrifice as a Crusader has earned him a spiritual payoff in the form of an Indulgence.

I understand the emotional mechanism that makes people want to dismiss Breivik as insane and sweep him and his ideas under the carpet, however I think it unwise. I do not think he is insane. Evil yes. But his writing doesn’t strike me as the product of insanity. He has a fully developed, fully matured, ideology. He didn't arise in a vacuum. Furthermore, the populations of entire nations have adopted exponentially more improbable ideologies than his and equally violent. National/regional/global crises have a way of consolidating ideologies. Look at Rwanda. Look at Bosnia. Look at Iraq. But do not ignore Western Europe. Much has gone down in Western Europe in the past century and much will go down there in the future and it is highly naïve to think otherwise.

Comprehending ideologically what Breivik believes is not incompatible with respect for the memories of his victims. I think that their deaths demand our attention to this. You do not protect against something like this by ignoring it, pretending it does not exist, sticking your head in the sand, and therefore it’s not a threat. That gross oversight is the primary reason behind the total failure of Norway’s security forces. I suspect they will not make that same mistake twice. A paradigm shift has occurred and with it Norway will become a different place.

It may be best to take any discussion of this to another thread.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 28, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
Very interesting analysis, Gas. Probably the best I've heard yet.

I'll post my thoughts on QITNL's thread.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
LG- he is not insane in the psychotic, medical or legal sense
He is highly calculated, intelligent and logical.

He is insane in the fundamentalist sense.
Which is what his writings and thinking amount too.
Same old fundamentalist half truths and jibberish we get from the Taliban, Evangelicals, Nationalist Jews or even the Mormons
Like a year of Glen Beck programs back to back....
Not psychotic just idiots...

But that was my point on my last post.
Take land and space and riches away and this kind of thinking, this murder, is all of our history.
He saw these kids, in his deranged logic, as tribal competition.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
Riley, I get what you are saying, but at what point does justifying killing dozens of innocent people become psychosis?

Psychotics can be really high functioning in many areas. You have to be more than stupid to butcher so many people
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
Ksolom- that is messed up...truly hard.choices..
The under ground in all countries was remarkable.
The French were unreal brave.

My great uncle was in the Dutch underground.
And one of my great Tanta's was shacked up with a German I guess.
When the Germans pulled out the underground rounded up all the sympathizers in the town of Kampan, where my dad is from, shaved their heads and put them on a barge in the middle of the river. Told them they were gonna blow them all up. I guess the screams were horrible. They didn't do it I guess, the fear was their punishment.
But my uncle saved my great aunt from this fate and pulled her out of the group before her head was shaved.
She is in her 90's now.
We don't really have any idea of the truth of it all that got us here. Even something as simple as attractiveness was much more historically- nor just the key to survival in peace times as far as breeding, but the key in war times also, at least for the harlots ..lol
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
True stalhbro..
I have been pondering this line myself.
It is debatable isn't it..
But then, if this is the case, than just about every Spaniard who colonized the Caribean and wiped out the Arawaks was a psychotic. Certainly the murderous Columbus was a psychotic a million time over.

If you have ever talked to a person who has just had a psychotic break than you know what is psychotic. A new schizophrenic that is brought in by their parents to the ER for example- early 20s and university student is usually the MO
They are sort of rare- If you are lucky you see one once every year or two in a busy ER.
Everything is jumbled in their heads- words, thoughts, day, night and reality.
That is psychotic.

If this guy is a psychotic than just about every religious loon is psychotic- also arguably true.

Where does sociopathic and messiah complexs become psychosis? And then you have states of disassociation, like we see with Klimmer? I don't think we really have a clue.how deep it all goes and we are fooling ourselves to think we don't all have murderous pasts in our nations history.
Although some of us must be good and nice people at heart..
I dunno...
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
There is no need to rehash this.

The Nazis proved to the world that one can be a gentle loving father, husband, brother, and son by night and a murderer of innocent men, women, and children by day. No conflict. All in the same individual.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:17am PT
He is insane in the fundamentalist sense.


What exactly is "the fundamentalist sense" Riley? "Fundamentalist" has become Supertopo's favorite snarl word. But it's debatable if the word has significant meaning used by itself.

Fundamentalism relates to a specific system of beliefs that one can fundamentally adhere to. Certainly there are atheist fundamentalists...if one is unwavering in his or her belief that there is no god...don't they fit the category of atheist fundamentalist?


Same old fundamentalist half truths and jibberish we get from the Taliban, Evangelicals, Nationalist Jews or even the Mormons


These groups are poles apart on many issues. Are you sure you want to unify them in one grouping?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:18am PT
He is insane in the fundamentalist sense.

Not quite. Not in my opinion. We need to be careful of projecting our own stereotypes onto him.
In fact he appears to be tolerant of several religious faiths, but not Islam.

Even concerning the Christian faith his beliefs appear to be leavened with a sort of practicality that one wouldn't expect from a strident fundamentalist. I read a passage of his discussing prayer, that is to say why to use prayer immediately before a 'mission', such as the mission he undertook with the bomb and shootings. He wrote something along the lines that one may not believe in an afterlife, but that they should pray anyway because prayer may give them a psychological boost and that it wouldn't take anything away from them and even if there's no afterlife prayer could help by simply providing a space and time to focus the mind in preparation. More importantly he believes that for a 'Knight' belief in an afterlife will make them a more aggressive, effective, and unstoppable warrior because they have overcome one of man's primary limitations, the fear of death, so the afterlife belief is important for the psychologically enabling mechanism it produces. A warrior that does not fear dying is more formidable and in his opinion just a small number of such warriors can achieve significant results.

At least in that bit I read, he allowed for a range of ways to relate to religious belief and Practicality and success seemed paramount.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:27am PT
The names of the 41 dead released so far by Norwegian police.

Tamta Lipartelliani (23)
Kevin Daae Berland (15)
Silje Stamneshagen (18)
Hanne Kristine Fridtun (19)
Kjersti Berg Sand (26)
Håkon Ødegaard (17)
Sondre Furseth Dale (17)
Henrik André Pedersen (27)
Eivind Hovden (15)
Rolf Christopher Johansen Perreau (25)
Sverre Flåte Bjørkavåg (28)
Eva Kathinka Lütken (14)
Ismail Haji Ahmed (19)
Maria Maagerø Johannesen (17)
Modupe Ellen Awoyemi (15)
Lene Maria Bergum (19)
Guro Vartdal Håvoll (18)
Marianne Sandvik (16)
Andreas Dalby Grønnesby (17)
Sondre Kjøren (17)
Bendik Rosnæs Ellingsen (18)
Gizam Dogan (17)
Snorre Haller (20)
Johannes Buø (14)
Sharidyn Svebakk-Bøhn (14)
Birgitte Smetbak (15)
Margrethe Bøyum Kløven (15)
Syvert Knudsen (17)
Bano Rashid (18)
Even Flugstad Malmedal (18)
Synne Røyneland (18)
Simon Sæbø (18)
Diderik Aamodt Olsen (19)
Gunnar Linaker (23)
Kai Hauge (32)
Hanne Annette Balch Fjalestad (43)
Trond Berntsen (51)
Anne Lise Holter (51)
Tove Åshill Knutsen (56)
Hanne Marie Orvik Endresen (61)
Kevin Daae Berland
Silje Stamneshagen
Gizem Dogan

Photos and short biographies at http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4186173.ece

One was from Georgia, and one from New Zealand. At least five have names that aren't traditionally Norwegian.

As for the murderer's "manifesto". Well, all such killers seem to have them. They're superficially plausible, as are all conspiracy theories. That is, there's a lot of incontrovertible facts and analysis. A history professor I once had, known as an arch-conservative, had a favourite trick, which was to assign readings from Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, and similar writings. His point being that much of what was in such writings had some truth, sometimes disturbingly so. You can't say that any of these people - Hitler, Marx, the unabomber, the Oklahoma City murderers, and on and on - were completely wrong. Life is nowhere near that simple.

They're wrong, and evil, in the self-serving conclusions they come to, and the actions that they take based on those conclusions.

As for the complex interrelationship between Islam and the West, going back to the 7th century, many of you would benefit from reading Norman Davis' "Europe: A History". Neither the West nor Islam is anything like a monolith, and the intertwined civilizations have a long history together. Whatever the beliefs of some, and present challenges, it seems likely that the Norwegians will continue to view world affairs in an informed and nuanced manner, bearing in mind their nation's values and goals. The Vikings appear in Islamic sources from the 10th century, after all.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:28am PT
True LG...very true...

But the crux is in who can do that?
And no, not everyone can be that kind of monster.
Plenty of German people, although no where near a majority, fought back and were ultimately crushed by the Nazis.
It is complex.

The thread nazis have done a great disservice to this thread.
There is much to learn here.
Much that is just under the surface.

This article does a good job discussing a few of the issues Norway is dealing with. Not all peace and utopia.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/world/europe/29norway.xml


Edit- nice post Anders..


Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:38am PT
Thanks for that link MH.
I've been looking for sites that had pictures of the victims, but couldn't find anything comprehensive (unfortunately, my browser is having issues loading all the pics in the link you posted). Would like to see a site in English as well, so if you find one please post up.

It's important to put an individual face on the victims instead of them being mere statistics.
And to learn who they were.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:53am PT
Interesting LG...
I guess perhaps fundamentalism is not necessarily confined to a certain faith?
You can be a fundamentalist in your own personal made up religion(all any religion is anyway), which combines knights, nationalism, racism, pride, fairly tales and valor and an infinite amount of other crap

Really, to try and answer Jenny, isn't fundamentalism the twisting, hardening or ultimate perversion of any belief system anyway?
Where religious belief approaches a cult?


I dunno..

See, Anders last post I could call the opposite of fundamentalism for the moat part.
His discussion of Hitler's manifesto is intelligent and well balanced.

But even Anders shows a little fundamentalist programming in the end- sort of a Norway super nation utopia bias that is obvious in some of his words, his love of Nordic and even his hate of Hockey and parts of Canadian nationalism.
Nothing wrong with it...
And who knows maybe Norway is the most peaceful country in the world right now.
Holland is supposed to be another leading progressive country.
But I know growing up in a house full of Dutch man and Norwegians there are plenty of ass holes in both nations.
It is interesting though...

You can sort of even see the roots of this in Anders pride of Norway.
Extrapolate the foreigners f*#king up the perfect Utopia.
Pride, rascism, nationalism, tribalism ..all kinds of disease there.
Probably much deeper than our conscious mind....deep into our animal mind
Very interesting eh?

reddirt

climber
PNW
Jul 29, 2011 - 01:01am PT
a little fundamentalist

isn't that a bit oxymoronic...
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 29, 2011 - 01:12am PT
All you ever wanted to know about fundamentalism and a whole lot ya didn't..

Covers the LDS.
I like that it covers Tibetan Buddhism also. I found many forms of Buddhism, including.and especialy Tibetan, to be ironic in there fundamentalist nature considering Buddha's true teachings are pretty much the opposite of fundamentalism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism



Haha, good one Reddirt..
reddirt

climber
PNW
Jul 29, 2011 - 01:22am PT
Unfortunately I have an exceptionally keen fundie radar & Anders is no fundamentalist...
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 01:59am PT
Riley Wyna:
Really, to try and answer Jenny, isn't fundamentalism the twisting, hardening or ultimate perversion of any belief system anyway?

It may be useful to make a distinction between A.) fundamentalist ‘holding a strict literal interpretation of the main texts of a religious faith’, B.) religious (or other) fanatic, and C.) a strict believer, but one holding a belief that is not a literal one.

--------------


Might Hiker:
They're wrong, and evil, in the self-serving conclusions they come to, and the actions that they take based on those conclusions.

Murderers, shopkeepers, climbers, capitalists, communists, secularists, fundamentalists all subscribe to an ideology. Speaking broadly, who's to say which is 'true', or 'right', or wrong', or 'evil'? More importantly, what does truth (or right, wrong, evil, etc) matter, and what is its measure? It seems to me there's a moving target as 'truth', and the means of discerning it, will differ depending upon the operative ideology.

The conundrum of 'fundamentalist' contemporary multiculturalism (is that a term?) is the value it places upon multiple coexistent ideologies each originating from vastly different origins. Political correctness would entail being open to and supportive of these multiple and vastly different ideologies, correct? But what to do when opposing ideologies are not merely rhetorical constructs but real and appear to be mutually exclusive, generate friction, or have as a basic immutable tenet the annihilation of the other? The orthodox Jew under the ideological influence of the multicultural politically correct nation-state wants to embrace his fellow neighbor, the Nazi. And visa versa. Two opposing different systems of Purity: Jew=Chosen People; Nazi=Master Race. But the Nazi's ideology is to exterminate the Jew. So the ideology that multiple cultures with real and vast differences can and should coexist, on the same neighborhood block, is flawed? Indeed, what would occur is a mutual annihilation of the original ideologies (Judaism, Nazism - exit stage left) and a conversion into some assimilated mutation, in effect an altogether different and new incorporative ideology ductile enough to contain the differences. But that is no longer multiculturalism, correct? That's a conversion. And a destruction of the mainstay of the original ideology.


Perhaps the dirty secret of multiculturalism is that multiculturalism isn't multiple cultures living together at all: it's perhaps really a new ideology of assimilation that includes a component that mythologizes itself as being open and receptive to the ‘other’ while at the same time demanding homogeneity regarding basic ideas and ideals, while also maintaining an aspect of ductility which allows for a superficial mutation of the dominant ideology which serves a function to propagate the mythology of opposites coexisting?




Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 29, 2011 - 05:02am PT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43933511/ns/politics-more_politics/

Right wing American morons strike again
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 29, 2011 - 05:05am PT
Perhaps the dirty secret of multiculturalism is that multiculturalism isn't multiple cultures living together at all: it's perhaps really a new ideology of assimilation that includes a component that mythologizes itself as being open and receptive to the ‘other’ while at the same time demanding homogeneity regarding basic ideas and ideals, while also maintaining an aspect of ductility which allows for a superficial mutation of the dominant ideology which serves a function to propagate the mythology of opposites coexisting?

You just described the American Way bro. Its not new at all, its as hold as the hills.

DMT
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 29, 2011 - 07:48am PT
Same old fundamentalist half truths and jibberish we get from the Taliban, Evangelicals, Nationalist Jews or even the Mormons


These groups are poles apart on many issues. Are you sure you want to unify them in one grouping?


Jennie, The reality is that these groups ARE VERY MUCH unitied in philosophy - that of unwavering belief in a supernatural authority and that serving this authority in this world is rewarded by attainment of a better world through death. They are also unified in their social and political structures that adhere to fundamentals of authoritarianism. The fact that various adherents of this philosophy are at odds with each other has more to do with tribalism. They eat their own because they dress different.

Central to the definition of fundamentalist is that their belief is immune to evidence to the contrary. Religious code provides the best foundation for countering the logic of rational critical thinking. The notion that atheists, or scientists, or stamp collectors or fly fishermen can be "fundamentalists" is a bit of a stretch and I think Dawkins provides this explanation best:


Richard Dawkins has rejected the charge of "fundamentalism," arguing that critics mistake his "passion"—which he says may match that of evangelical Christians—for an inability to change his mind. Dawkins asserts that the atheists' position is not a fundamentalism that is unable to change its mind, but is held based on the verifiable evidence; as he puts it: "The true scientist, however passionately he may "believe" in evolution for example, knows exactly what would change his mind: evidence! The fundamentalist knows that nothing will."[43] Put another way, Dawkins states:
...Maybe scientists are fundamentalist when it comes to defining in some abstract way what is meant by 'truth'. But so is everybody else. I am no more fundamentalist when I say evolution is true than when I say it is true that New Zealand is in the southern hemisphere. We believe in evolution because the evidence supports it, and we would abandon it overnight if new evidence arose to dispute it. No real fundamentalist would ever say anything like that...[54]
The truth of the holy book is an axiom, not the end product of a process of reasoning. The book is true, and if the evidence seems to contradict it, it is the evidence that must be thrown out, not the book.
Continuing, Dawkins explains the reason he seems so passionate "is because the evidence for evolution is overwhelmingly strong and I am passionately distressed that my opponent can't see it."

For examples of non religious fundamentalism see "climate change skeptics". More than once I posed the question to the chief on that thread "If you were presented with affirmative evidence of the existence and negative effect of AGW by an authority that you respect and have faith in, would you accept it?"

it was met with evasion, dismissal or stony silence.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 08:31am PT
Bruce Kay:
Richard Dawkins has rejected the charge of "fundamentalism," arguing that critics mistake his "passion"—which he says may match that of evangelical Christians—for an inability to change his mind.


Will Dawkins change his mind on basic ideological issues, for example his faith in reductive reason as the means to arrive at Truth, or the fetish of the number '1' (scientific method reductive reasoning to arrive at ONE answer, why not THREE or FOUR answers?), etc. And where is his proof that reason is the sole means of arriving at truth other than his faith that this is so?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 29, 2011 - 08:44am PT
LG.... that is an interesting question. Is ones belief in deductive reasoning unwavering? are there other processes of explaining reality? and while we're at it, whats the meaning of life anyway?

I think you're digging deeper than I'm capable of going but by all means keep going! I've been finding the discussion quite interesting lately
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 08:47am PT
Multiculturalism polices the dominant cultural ideology not only against other cultures, but also against earlier ideological components of its own culture so that its values are those of (post)modernity. For example, there's very little tolerance in the USA now for some old school folk in Massachusetts who want to conduct a Salem type witch trial ... Salem style waterboarding by submerging the potential witch in a pond with weighted rocks to see if she floats. Or very little tolerance for Jim Crow laws.

The response would be just as immediate and severe as the contemporary USA response to the Plains Indians attempting to reclaim their nomadic buffalo hunting culture. They'd be shut down, arrested, and booked within a day.


From my post upthread:
Perhaps the dirty secret of multiculturalism is that multiculturalism isn't multiple cultures living together at all: it's perhaps really a new ideology of assimilation that includes a component that mythologizes itself as being open and receptive to the ‘other’ while at the same time demanding homogeneity regarding basic ideas and ideals, while also maintaining an aspect of ductility which allows for a superficial mutation of the dominant ideology which serves a function to propagate the mythology of opposites coexisting?

When we multiculturalists are confronted with the contradictions within our own ideology, we seem to have invented Political Correctness as one mechanism of the "ductility which allows for a superficial mutation of the dominant ideology". Political Correctness is the dominant ideology adjusting itself to incorporate and assimilate superficial elements of the 'other' secondary cultures. The remaining major elements of the secondary cultures are left on the editing room floor.



Norway maybe has been fortunate insofar as the dominant culture hasn't been deeply challenged since the Nazis came to visit.

For example I read on Wikipedia that now there's only 818 Jews in Norway.

Perhaps the current generation of Norwegians, due to their high standard of living and relatively homogenous culture haven't needed to confront the prospect of a significant cultural threat to their dominant culture. And things may likely remain that way. However, in the aftermath of the recent tragedy I imagine that the cultural discourse will now become more prominent, as will the issue of immigration. Because of Breivik's stated motivations, there's invariably going to be significant discourse regarding these topics ... unless Norway undergoes a form of national repression, declares Breivik insane, and attempts to carry on as if nothing has happened.


God, I'd hate to contaminate this thread by introducing the WoS controversy here (for the sake of climbing content), however one possibility is that the same general 'cultural' issues that we've been discussing have played out in Yosemite in the 1980s with similar dynamics: traditional dominant culture vs. secondary culture, policing of boarders, 'climbing multiculturalism', climbing political correctness in the Valley now and then, etc. It may even point to a way of understanding and reconciling with the past without having to resort to historical revisionism or losing face. It's worth exploring.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 10:10am PT
Bruce Kay:
Is ones belief in deductive reasoning unwavering?

Belief in deductive reasoning is a characteristic of Western culture.
Belief in deductive reasoning is a significant traditional distinction between a scientific ideology and a religious ideology.

If one truly believes that one can have their head cut off and buried and the body can come back to life, or that one can literally die and resurrect that is incompatible with a true belief in deductive reasoning and science.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
LG: I'll let you know if I come across information about the dead in English. The Guardian had at least a partial presentation.

I haven't heard anything further regarding a national service, but believe it's likely there'll be one in the next few days.

Fundamentalism, multiculturalism, assimilation, etc. There's not much doubt that Norway will discuss those things in the next while. This thread reminds me, though, how profoundly different the various nations and cultures are in some ways. Canada and the US, despite many superficial similarities. More so either Canada or the US, and Norway. The melting pot really isn't an option, given the homogeneity and uniqueness of Norwegian culture, and that immigrants are less than 10% of the population. (Significantly greater in both Canada and the US.) In the end, I suspect that Norway will continue to go its own way, true to its own values. You can argue that they're wealthy and somewhat insulated, and so have choices others don't. Or you can just say they're trying their own way, which is different, and may work for them.

Norwegians are if nothing else very determined, once they've made up their minds, and there is a strong national ethos. They'll do what they think best.

As for professional ice hockey. Well, I've never had a television. But from what I've seen of hockey (and television), it's entirely compromised by commercial 'values', promotes a culture and values (violence, money...) that are repugnant, and distorts Canadian culture. It's an ugly business, even if at times it can be entertaining. Perhaps it's consistent with my partly-Norwegian heritage that I am repelled by it, notwithstanding that the easy way would be to go along with the crowd. Not at all fundamentalist - just determined in my views.

Also, there's no doubt that hockey causes rioting, and that it's great fun baiting those of its supporters that are blind to its excesses and stupidity.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 29, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
I've done a lot of business in Canada, worked for a Canadian firm for a few years, and worked for a Canadian for several years more. I love Canada and her people and have had to learn in my own fashion and measure the differences.

The similarities are not superficial, they are real. The differences are not imagined, they are real as well.

From cool west coasters to heartland Winnipeggers to passive aggressive Ottawans to schizo Quebecers to Scots living in Newfoundland... love the country and celebrate both the common ground and our delightful differences.

Like curling leagues. Delightfully bizarre.

Eh?

DMT
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 29, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Newfoundlanders are of Irish decent Dingus.


You guys are funny.

"determined in my ways"
Uhh huh..

Sounds like Norway is a pretty special country Anders.
Sure hope someone doesn't screw it up?

They taught a lot of multi-cultural stuff in nursing school in Canada
Even as a young guy I pretty much instinctively knew multiculturalism was crap.
And after taking care and working with every imaginable race, creed, and nationality on the planet in many countries and from the top of Alaska to the bottom of Texas I can safely say that all people are the same with superficial differences.
There is much more difference between me and a red neck Albertan or neighbor than there is between me and a funny, cool, intelligent Tibetan or Eskimo or Mexican, and.on and on.
And much less differences between me and any climber than there is between me and any non climber no matter what they believe.

Differences are very superficial and are amplified incredibly on the net which substitutes and is analogous for how our own instincts and mind are contorted by books, and hate rigid thinking and preconceived ideas of people.
And I tell you now, having met hundreds of ST folks, no matter what you think you know about someone on the net you will often be wrong when you meet them in real life and wrong again when you get to know them deeply.
Funny that when you meet people on ST you can find that they are often the opposite of the belief systems they profess with the supposed racist and hateful fundamentalist having the warmest heart and the peace loving socialist being the most condescending and angry.

( And no I am not talking about my friend Anders. I am trying to understand this tragedy by disagreeing with him and playing off anders a bit on this thread but he truly is easily one of the warmest and most wonderful people I have ever met and he definitely does walk the walk, as reddirt says...no fundy radar going off in Anders)


Personly the only thing that mattered to me was genetics. I had kids with and married a Mayan, mostly because I loved her and couldn't help it, but also because I was keenly aware that I wanted to have babies as far away from my genic pool with the strongest person possible. So, I got kids who never get sick among other great genetic gifts.

To bad this guy didn't have a family with a nice foreign girl and have a wonderful life of children and love- probably would have been better than the confused hell he now lives.

Perhaps, the ultimate problem here is emotional damage, isolation and stunting?
This gives me insight into what Waters was trying to say in the Nazi song after Pink had built the wall.
The real answers to this tragedy are probably found in this guys past. Something or someone gave him far to many bricks for the wall.

Riley
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 29, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
The final death toll is now set at 77, and all victims have been identified and families notified. Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) has been reading out all the names of those who have been identified each night after the 6:00 PM news. The complete list, with home town and age, is on the Norwegian police website - https://www.politi.no/Kampanje_70.xhtml

It was a selfish relief that I don't recognize any of the names, although it's likely that cousins and friends knew some of the dead, or their families.

A useful English language site with information about Norway, the attacks, and related matters:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/

Including an article as to why foreigners don't "get" Norway:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/28/foreigners-just-dont-get-norway/

It may not be the most profound analysis, but is well worth reading. And it mirrors many things already said here.

I still haven't heard anything about a state memorial, or when the "22/7 Commission" will be required to report by. I expect the latter to be very thorough, very public, and quite untainted by political bias.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 29, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
"I believe that the majority of the foreign journalists (sent to Norway to cover Friday’s terrorist attacks and their aftermath) had minimal knowledge of Norwegian society and culture,”

An understatement perhaps...


Good link Anders..

I think it is time finally, next year maybe, to go back there with my kids.


Riley
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 29, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
Friday was St. Olav's Day - he is the patron saint of Norway. (He wasn't very saintly, but then..) Flags throughout Norway were flown at half mast, in honour of the dead.

The 'most read' article on the Aftenposten website as of earlier today was one that was highly critical of Fox News' twisted coverage of the events and their cause. There has been a quite negative reaction - the thing which surprises me being that many (if any) Norwegians watch Fox News (presumably on the internet), or care about it.

Two psychiatrists have been appointed to examine the accused, to determine whether he is sane and fit to stand trial. One is considered the most experienced criminal psychiatrist in Norway. They must deliver their report by November 1st.

Far upthread someone posted photos, allegedly of the sort of prison in which the accused would be kept. The prison is the Halden Fengsel, which is a fairly new medium to low security prison serving Østfold. Not a place for violent criminals - perhaps the US media was lazy, or had an agenda, in suggesting otherwise.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 30, 2011 - 08:02am PT
Prime Minister Stoltenberg's address at Oslo Cathedral a few days ago. So you can all learn some Norwegian. (click on the "cc" on the popup toolbar on the bottom of the photo to get a translation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oPbd9UvZuY

Crown Prince Håkon Magnus' address at Oslo city hall on Monday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT2Iy_eJj8E (Norwegian only)
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 31, 2011 - 01:49am PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

It seems to me that he is delusional enough to possibly be schizophrenic.
Brings up an entire new area of conversation where we have these high functioning schizoid personalities operating in our society- ex: The Beautiful Mind
I've long held Glen Beck is at least schizoid and it makes me think that some of the logic problems, we see on ST that are easily delusional in their own right, aren't Indicative of a much more pervasive delusion problem in our society.
Sort of easier to understand a lot of sh#t that goes on in the world looking at it through this type of prism.
Riley
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 31, 2011 - 03:50am PT
The Wikipedia article, in my opinion, appears slanted as an opinionated commentary and somewhat different than the material ABB wrote. He seems to me to operate more along the lines of an undercover secret agent. He cultivated a normal outward persona as an extension of his past, all the while polishing and shaping it to provide the necessary cover story to conceal the planning, acquisition, and fabrication stages of his 'one man cell' terrorist activity.


Like the prisoners released from incarceration at the Bastille prison during the French Revolution, or the prisoners released from Iraqi prisons during the US invasion, he believes that Norway/Europe's 'multiculturalist/cultural Marxist' regime will be deposed during a regime change in future decades brought about by a revolution that he helped to initiate, at which time he will be released from prison by the new government.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 31, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
Credit: Reuters

The coverage in the news media is now more about details, and individual stories. The first of the dead to be buried was on Friday - Bano Rashid, a Kurdish young woman (18) originally from Iraq.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/29/norway-terror-attacks-victim-funeral?INTCMP=SRCH

It seems unlikely that the murderer will ever be freed, or if he was, that he would survive for long. It appears that he may also have been planning to bomb the palace in Oslo, and the headquarters of the Labour Party, but was prevented from doing so, possibly by the logistics. The police are also looking for two Swedish right-wing extremists with whom he was in contact, and who may have worked for him on the 'farm' where he prepared. They are also pursuing other of his contacts.

Former Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland's thoughts on what happened, and the aftermath for Norway: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/29/gro-expects-long-mourning-process/ She just missed being murdered on Utøya, having left the island about an hour before the killer arrived. She is an extremely popular senior stateswoman.

There was a mini-scandal in Norway last year, when it was discovered that the US embassy had been engaging in surveillance of Norwegians, outside the immediate area of its embassy. The public and government were outraged. However, the prosecutor recently decided not to press charges. It seems likely that there were some confidential diplomatic discussions between the governments with regard to what is and isn't acceptable.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/28/norway-drops-us-surveillance-case/

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Book+condolence+grieving+Norwegians+signed+Vancouver+consulate+Wednesday/5166932/story.html?cid=megadrop_story
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 31, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
MH, how many were shot on Utøya and survived? I can't seem to find any reports.

I can't imagine ABB will ever get out of prison no matter what Norway's laws are as he's too much of a threat (the prison release scenario I posted unthread is ABB's own belief and self-indoctrination).

Once it became known a Caucasian Christian was responsible for the attacks many news sources had reversed themselves calling ABB a criminal not a terrorist. But ABB's writings clearly demonstrate that his intentions are to effect political change by sending a message of terror to his political enemies so as to coerce them into changing their political positions and as a media marketing tool to introduce his political ideas to the broader public discourse.

From what I was reading regarding Norway (MH's links and others) it does appear to be an unusually open society (the PM bicycles to work, etc.). It would be a shame for that to end in order to balance the need for increased security.

Post 9/11 the USA dramatically transformed into a fearful paranoid culture and the Patriot Act deepened that vibe and challenged our liberties. Ordinary people became apprehensive about speaking their opinions. The mistrust was pervasive and then the unwarranted invasion of Iraq. Looking back the total package is like some sort of nightmare. Hopefully Norway will be spared that. Then there's the very real successes of terrorism such as Spain ordering it's troops out of Iraq in 2004. There's also the usual conspiracy theories abounding about who is 'really' behind the Norway killings and for what ulterior ends.



Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 31, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
here is an interesting take on the deal in Norway. Andrew Nikiforuk is a canadian writer and critic of the Tar sands development and the political support for it from the Alberta and Federal government.
This article seems to be a critique of Norways similar position as a "Petro state", although he claims their handling of the resource is infinitely superior to that of Canada, Nigeria, Sudan or other third world kleptocracies.

I guess he's saying that gross wealth, no matter how you handle it, is a bit of a poison. He speculates that the killer and the twisted xenophobic rightwing mind set, which is on the upswing in Norway, may have spun off of this circumstance. beats me, but maybe someone with more insight could comment.



http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/07/27/NorwayTragedyAndOil/
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 31, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
LG- of course it differs-he is a delusional liar who lived in a fantasy world.

It seems the brick in the wall that probably did it was his Daddy not loving him.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 1, 2011 - 08:27am PT
LG, the estimate is that there were 700 people on Utøya when the murderer arrived. He came by what seems to have been a foot ferry - it's not a big island. He must have had a big bag with his weapons and ammunition, which would have been a bit odd, but perhaps his uniform deterred anyone from asking what he was doing.

Of the 700 or so, 69 were killed. The overall total of those who were treated in hospital for injuries was 96, but 10 - 20% of them must have been related to the downtown bomb. So the number physically injured at Utøya would have been 70 to 80.

The first person accounts of survivors (mostly in Norwegian) are not for the faint of heart.

I believe that the murders will cause Norway and its people a period of sorrow and self-examination, in terms of their country, its values, and its place in the world. Ultimately, though, I believe that what happened will lead them to reaffirm who and what they are, perhaps with some modifications. They will also learn from what happened in the US both before and after 11/9, and the way in which those events were twisted for political gain. It seems unlikely that Norway will react in a similar frightened, violent way, or that it can be manipulated into overreacting. It's very different culture and society.

The events have led to a significant jump in support for the Labour Party and Prime Minister Stoltenberg, and drop in support for the right-wing Progress Party which the killer belonged to. The opposite of the desired effect.

Whether "oil corrupts" is a thesis worth exploring is another matter. It has to some extent in Canada, where oil and gas definitely talk and politicians listen, first in Alberta and now nationally. I suspect less so in Norway, given very different national dynamics. As a result of oil and gas it became a much wealthier country, but they've consciously and openly worked to temper the effects.

The killer still claims that there are two other cells, and that he had accomplices. He says he will disclose the names if the government, the leaders of the armed forces, and the king all resign.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Outpouring+sympathy+Norway+Labour+after+massacre/5186206/story.html
tinker b

climber
the commonwealth
Aug 1, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
i am watching thenorwegion parliment procedings on cspan. they all look and sund like anders.
they have really focused on how they will react from this stressing free speech, love, and maintaining their norwegien integrety. i am imprssed.
they read the names of the dead and their ages. it is so sad to hear about so many young. the anders look alike played violin. my thoughts go out to folks over there.
peace
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 1, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
A memorial was held in the Storting (parliament) today, attended by both King Harald and Crown Prince Håkon, and many from the families of the victims. The names of the 77 dead were read.

The Storting has decided that there will be a national day of mourning on August 21st, including a memorial concert. It will be at the largest suitable venue in the country.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/01/day-of-mourning-to-be-held-21-august/

It appears that the murderer was delayed on his way into and out of Oslo on July 22nd, due to a car accident. He had originally intended to set his bomb several hours earlier, but by mid afternoon many people had left work on a summer Friday. He would then have arrived at Utøya earlier, in time for the large rally attended by Gro Harlem Brundtland. The bomb also had reduced effect in that the vehicle was parked above an underground tunnel, which absorbed much of the blast.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/01/breivik-delayed-new-details-reveal/

And a journalist's perspective - a writer from The Guardian, sent to try to talk with families and friends at Bardu, which is north of Trondheim. It has 4,000 inhabitants - two died at Utøya, and two were injured.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/01/talk-survivors-norway-attacks
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Aug 2, 2011 - 12:15am PT
Something Rotten in Norway

Posted By Daniel Greenfield
FrontPage

Anders Breivik’s attack on the youth camp of the Norwegian Labour Party has its most obvious precedent in the Maalot Massacre when Palestinian Muslim gunmen attacked an Israeli elementary school, taking over a hundred children hostage, and then using automatic weapons to kill as many of them as they could. But the link between Maalot and Utoya is more than casual. The Workers Youth League which ran the camp had a long history of supporting the same kind of terrorists who had perpetrated the Maalot Massacre.

Lars Gule, is the Secretary General of the Norwegian Humanist Association, and a defender of Muslims having the right to discriminate against women and gays. (The two are not a contradiction in Norway.) He was the leader of the Workers Youth League at the University of Bergen– and a DFLP terrorist.

The DFLP were the perpetrators of the Maalot Massacre. And two years after that attack, Lars Gule was trained by the DFLP and dispatched to Israel via Norway with explosives hidden in the covers of his books.

“The Suspect had made ​​it known to his employers that he wanted to take human life… to strengthen Palestinian fighting spirit and morale,” Norwegian police records noted.

None of this impeded Gule’s career in any way. He went on to the University of Bergen and served as the head of the Workers Youth League, the organization that was targeted in the Utoya attack. Today he is a prominent figure on the left.

How can we make sense of this? Glenn Beck compared the Workers Youth League camp to a Hitler Youth camp. He was close, but not entirely right. The roots of the Workers Youth League are actually Communist.

Norway’s Labour Party was a member of the Communist International. The Workers Youth League was formed by the merger of the Left Communist Youth League and the Socialist Youth League of Norway. We often use “Communist” as a pejorative– but in this case the Utoya camp, literally was a Communist youth camp.

The day before the massacre, Norwegian Foreign Minister Gahre-Store visited the camp and was greeted with banners calling for a boycott of Israel, and Gahre-Store responded with an Anti-Israel speech to cheers from the campers. There is something ominous about such indoctrination of hate. It is not quite on the level of the Hitler Youth, but neither is it a world apart.

In the 1930′s, Germans were encouraged to blame their problems on the Jews. In this decade, Norwegians are encouraged to blame their problems on the Jews. There are few children of workers at the Workers Youth League camp. They are for the most part the children of the party, the sons and daughters of bureaucrats and party leaders, training the next generation to perpetrate the Labour Party state.

Breivik came from that same background. The son of the left wing elite. And if his parents’ marriage had not collapsed, with the young boy allotting a share of the blame to the Labour Party, he would likely have a comfortable spot in the socialist state. Breivik may have turned against his roots, but the idea that terroristic violence is a legitimate solution is one that he could have easily picked up on the left.

Gahre-Store may have been greeted with a banner calling for the boycott of Israel, but he would never have been greeted with one calling for a boycott of terrorists. And indeed if there is an Islamist terrorist group that Gahre-Store doesn’t support, it’s hard to find. Gahre-Store had called for negotiating with Al-Shahaab in Somalia, an Al-Qaeda offshoot, he spoke with Hamas leader Khaled Mashal and called for a reconciliation with the Taliban.

Nor is the Workers Youth League call for the destruction of Israel a recent one. In the 70's, the movement was already pushing for a One State Solution. The man who led the organization then went on to become the country’s Foreign Minister playing a key role in the Oslo Accords that turned Israel into a free fire zone for the terrorist allies of the League and the Labour Party.

Media commentators have made a great deal of Breivik’s radicalization, but despite his death toll, his radicalization seems to be an isolated event in comparison to the magnitude of radicalization at Utoya. If Breivik’s violence and bigotry is to be condemned– shouldn’t the species of violence and bigotry at Utoya be condemned as well?

The left can hold up Utoya as an example, but there are a legion of counterexamples. Nor the least of which is Lars Gule, traveling with explosives in his backpack, on a journey that took him from DFLP terrorist to Workers Youth League leader.

And behind that is the larger string of DFLP and Fatah atrocities. And that of other terrorist groups around the world. The Utoya attack cannot be viewed as an isolated event. It must be seen within the context of support for terrorism as a valid tactic. An idea that goes back to the Marxist roots of the Labour Party and which is embodied in its political support for terrorism. And its manifest hostility to the victims of terrorism.

Breivik and Lars Gule had their common origins in a country dominated by a political left which sees violence as a legitimate tool of political change, while dehumanizing its victims. Norway’s ambassador to Israel carefully distinguished between the Utoya attack and the terrorist attacks on Israelis. The latter would go away if Israel just followed Gahre-Store’s example and negotiated with Hamas.

But what Norway’s political elite failed to grasp is that the genie of terrorism cannot be kept in a lamp, to emerge only at your command. Once you legitimize terrorism as a tool of political change, you lose the ability to determine who will make use of it. Breivik followed the example of Lars Gule, that of the Marxist terrorists, whose intellectual legacy is the black tar that seeps through the painted walls of Norwegian foreign policy.

The hatred and terrorist collaboration on display at Utoya was the symptom of a larger disease. “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark,” Marcellus proclaims in Hamlet. It’s equally rotten in Norway.

Breivik was one expression of that rottenness. But there are many others. Like Lars Gule, and his vision of a secular atheism living side by side with bigoted Islamism. Or Gahre-Store following in the footsteps of countless left wing foreign ministers by opening Norway’s doors to every Islamist terrorist group out there. Or the children being groomed to become the future leaders of Norway taught to hate as fervently as their Fatah associates.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 2, 2011 - 03:41am PT
Anyway...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gNZtlATY39wIKJDWCwtxn8jPIk3A?docId=9cbf6cfa038246859d02f8ca18c86c7e

He is completely insane...
Put him in a hospital for life and be done with it

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 2, 2011 - 07:39am PT
terroristic violence is a legitimate solution is one that he could have easily picked up on the left.

HAHAHHAHAHa. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Where do you find these comedic gems?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 2, 2011 - 09:27am PT
skip, who is Daniel Greenfield, and where was his inflammatory article published? Some right-wing Israeli blog? Most of what he says is ideologically driven innuendo - his agenda seems a simplistic pro-Israel, pro-US, anti-Muslim one.

Norway will undoubtedly go through a period of self-examination as a result of what happened. A significant minority of Norwegians are less than comfortable with the reality of immigration and assimilation, or to be more accurate, uncomfortable with change. Whether it will lead to any change in its national policies is another matter. They're determined folk.

Norway has long rejected the extremism promoted in Greenfield's article. It supports Israel, but not blindly, particularly that country's intransigence with regard to coming to a reasonable settlement with the Palestinians, and the utterly uncritical support it is given by some in the US and other countries. It also supports the Palestinians, but again not blindly. It is a credit to Norway that although it sees the situation as it is, it doesn't cry "a plague on all your houses", but instead works with both as best it can.

The suggestion that anti-Semitism is common in Norway is laughable, and questioning some of the policies of Israel is hardly the same thing. No doubt there are a few true anti-Semites in Norway, and a few anti-Islam bigots also - exposing them, especially the fanatics, seems a likely priority. But stating that Norway's Labour Party long ago had links with international communism, and jumping to the conclusion that that "proves" anything, or claiming that the murders were somehow linked to state terrorism, is absurd. A sad attempt by what seems to be an American-Israeli author of unknown credibility to blow some dog whistles, in the hope that his extreme audience will drool.

Let me re-emphasize. Norway tends to go its own way in these matters. It doesn't care for the narrow ideological blinkers that the US often adopts, and attempts by ideologically motivated and ignorant US writers to frame the discussion within their narrow prisms are of little use.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Aug 2, 2011 - 09:34am PT
Skip
That is repulsive
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Aug 2, 2011 - 09:56am PT
here's the Frontpage web site.

http://frontpagemag.com/author/daniel-greenfield/



Skipt, have you ever considered offering up your mind to science?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 2, 2011 - 10:00am PT
Glenn Beck compared the Workers Youth League camp to a Hitler Youth camp

Anybody who quotes Glenn Beck on anything other than recommendations for donuts
is instantly suspect, at best/
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Aug 2, 2011 - 10:04am PT
Mighty Hiker,

Looks like Norway has much to reflect on.



The evil one
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 2, 2011 - 10:45am PT
Some discussion, but not true debate, has begun with regard to tightened gun control in Norway. It started a year or more ago, and will now be heightened. The police want tighter regulations, in particular with regard to semi-automatic rifles and handguns. There are about 1.2 million registered firearms in Norway, with about 400,000 holding licences - although many relate to military and civil defence.

A discussion of whether there should be life sentences for mass murders and similar crimes has also begun. Norway has local and regional elections this autumn, and national elections next year.

It seems likely that there will be much discussion before any decision, and they'll wait until the parliamentary enquiry has finished. It seems likely that tighter regulations will eventually result, possibly combined with measures to reduce illegal importation of firearms.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/02/police-will-have-stricter-gun-control/
BES1'st

climber
USA
Aug 2, 2011 - 11:52am PT
If Breivik is tried and convicted of terrorism he could face up to 21
years in prison. An alternative custody arrangement, however, could keep
him behind bars indefinitely.

http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/601034-lawyer-norwegian-attacker-demands.html#.2396-stage-hero1-1

The previous mentioned was read from the OC Register paper editorial.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 2, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
The following offers some helpful insights, from a Norwegian perspective.
A Blogosphere of Bigots

By Jostein Gaarder and Thomas Hylland Eriksen

Published: July 28, 2011

Room For Debate - Will the Norway Massacre Deflate Europe's Right Wing?

The killings could weaken nationalist fervor in Europe, as the Oklahoma City bombing cooled off militias in the U.S. in the late 1990s.

It is tempting to view ABB, the self-described Christian crusader behind the July 22 massacre in Norway, as an isolated case of pure evil. Yet history has taught us that such acts of violence rarely occur independent of their social and cultural surroundings. The assassination of Sweden’s prime minister, Olof Palme, on a Stockholm street in 1986, like the January shooting of Representative Gabrielle Giffords outside a shopping mall in Arizona, took place at a time when caustic antigovernment rhetoric was widespread.

Mr. Breivik managed to commit two terrorist attacks in a single afternoon. But the hatred and contempt from which he drew his deranged determination were shared with many others throughout the international right-wing blogosphere.

The racism and bigotry that have simmered for years on anti-Islamic and anti-immigration Web sites in Norway and other European countries and in the United States made it possible for him to believe he was acting on behalf of a community that would thank him. As John Donne famously put it, “No man is an island ... every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.”

Norway’s security police had estimated that only a small number of Norwegians belonged to domestic right-wing extremist groups in 2010 and that they did not pose a security threat — an estimate that clearly has turned out to be erroneous. There may be only a few known members of ragged and powerless white-power groups, but the thousands of right-wing extremists who don’t belong to recognized groups are harder to pin down.

The global Islamophobic blogosphere consists of loosely connected networks of people — including students, civil servants, capitalists, and neo-Nazis. Many do not even see themselves as “right-wing,” but as defenders of enlightened values, including feminism.

The Islamophobes of Norway have no manifesto, but they share three fundamental views: that Norway is in the hands of a treacherous, spineless, politically correct elite that has betrayed the pure spirit of Norwegian culture by permitting demographic contamination; that Muslims will never be truly integrated (even if they pretend to be); and that there is a Muslim conspiracy to gain political dominance across Europe.

Hatred of Muslims and resentment of the left — one of us has repeatedly received resentful diatribes against the “multiculturalist elite,” and was mentioned in Mr. Breivik’s own writings — is not confined to Norway. Mr. Breivik has praised Gates of Vienna, a Web site that compares contemporary Europe to long-ago wars with the Ottomans. He has praised writers like Bruce Bawer, the American author of “While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within,” and Bat Ye’Or, the pseudonym for the British author of the conspiratorial “Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis.” He is an enthusiastic reader of the virulently anti-Islamic blog of Pamela Geller, an American who leads the group “Stop Islamization of America” and gained notoriety for her opposition to an Islamic center near ground zero in Manhattan.

Europe’s new right is, in other words, not neo-Nazi; it has swapped anti-Semitism for Islamophobia. After a hiatus of several hundred years, fear of Islam reemerged around 1989, as the Cold War was ending and Iranian mullahs issued a fatwa against the British writer Salman Rushdie. It gained popularity as increasing numbers of Muslims entered Europe as immigrants in the 1990s, and became widespread in the aftermath of 9/11. Traditional racism may actually be waning in several European countries, but hostility toward Islam and animosity toward Muslim immigrants and their children is on the rise.

Norwegian society is changing, and rapid immigration has no doubt led to tensions. In a country of under 5 million people, the number of immigrants and their children has doubled to over 550,000 in the last 15 years. Many of them are Poles and Swedes seeking work, and their presence is uncontroversial. Others have arrived as refugees and asylum-seekers from countries like Somalia, Iraq and Bosnia. And a substantial number have come to Norway to join relatives or spouses already in the country. About 200,000 — including more than 30,000 Pakistanis — have roots in Muslim countries.

Because of our healthy economy, fueled by North Sea oil, controversies over immigration tend to concern culture rather than economics. The perception that immigrants are patriarchal and insular has sparked controversies over everything from school excursions to swimming lessons to disrespect for female teachers. Yet many “new Norwegians” fully participate in society. Indeed, some of them were at work in the government buildings destroyed last week; others were taking part in the Utoya summer camp.

Conceding that a culturally diverse society raises knotty and complex social and political questions is one thing. It is quite another to state that a multicultural society is impossible, or that Islam is incompatible with democracy. Yet the blogosphere to which Mr. Breivik belonged took these views as a basic premise.

It is too early to tell if anything positive can emerge from this tragedy. In the upcoming elections, Norway’s Labor Party will likely receive many sympathy votes and the right could be adversely affected by its associations with Islamophobia. In the long run, the situation is less certain. In other Scandinavian countries, Social Democrats have been pushed to the right by anti-immigration parties. We hope that Norway’s longstanding consensus about immigration and integration policies will not be eroded.

Until last week, Norwegian authorities did not see the far right as a security threat. Mr. Breivik has now shown that those who claim to protect the next generation of Norwegians against Islamist extremism are, in fact, the greater menace.
Jostein Gaarder is the author of “Sophie’s World” and many other books. Thomas Hylland Eriksen is a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/opinion/Gaarder-Eriksen.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=norway%20massacre&st=cse
skipt

Mountain climber
Washington
Aug 3, 2011 - 12:10am PT
Mighty Hiker,

This was the horrible act of a nut job.

There is no reason for the good people of Norway to start a witch hunt for those they don't agree with.

He was going after "Socialists." And rejecting his upbringing...


Skip
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 3, 2011 - 09:47am PT
•KARAR MUSTAFA QASIM (19)

•PORNTIP ARDAM (21)

•JAMIL RAFAL MOHAMAD JAMIL (20)

•MONA ABDINUR (18)

•TAMTA LIPARTELLIANI (23)

•ISMAIL HAJI AHMED (19)

•MODUPE ELLEN AWOYEMI (15)

•GIZEM DOGAN (17)

•BANO ABOBAKAR RASHID (18)

Most of these nine (out of 77 dead) have been identified as refugees, or children of refugees, from Muslim countries. Five or six, at least, have names of undoubtable Muslim origin. There have been suggestions that the killer targeted young people with non-Nordic features on Utøya.

Names and ages taken from the Norwegian police website: https://www.politi.no/Kampanje_70.xhtml

(Posted in reply to skipt's now amended statement that no Muslims were killed, which demanded names.)
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 3, 2011 - 10:17am PT
There have been suggestions that the killer targeted young people with non-Nordic features on Utøya.

I assume you mean "non-Caucasian" (or "non-white" in more plain English).
From the pictures I've seen, you can't really tell if someone is "Nordic" by looking at them, even though of course things like percentage of people with blond hair, height, etc. vary somewhat among countries.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 3, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
Time will tell what exactly happened, and some things may never be clear. There seem to have been a disproportionate number of persons from "visible minorities" killed on Utøya, and there have been suggestions that the killer was targeting them particularly. Their being both involved in the Labour Party and apparent beneficiaries of its supposedly lax immigration policies (based on skin colour and perhaps dress) might have been a motive. The evidence would be anything that survivors saw or heard, the actions of the murderer, and the actual results.

That said, the killer was anti-immigration and in particular anti-Islam. The details as to how he acted out his beliefs are less important - he killed a lot of Norwegian citizens.

Despite stereotypes, many in Nordic countries aren't tall, with blonde hair and blue eyes. A fair number are shorter, and have brown hair, and there's some admixture of persons with black hair and brown eyes. Anyone with beige, brown or black skin probably came to Norway (or the parents thereof came to Norway) since the 1970s, as there was little immigration, especially refugee resettlement, before the oil and gas money started to come in.
BES1'st

climber
USA
Aug 3, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
bluering I suspected this. Reference::History the 4'th paragraph
counting the 1 sentence preceding as a paragraph.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(Norway)

BES1'st

climber
USA
Aug 3, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
The trade I did for 20+ years was considered the second most
dangerous trade in the US. *You could not work on a job site until
18 years of age, hence a student work permit did not allow it.
Not just over there but here in the US also I see appointments
at age 17 when by statutory provision most jobs in politics also
require the age of 18, noting politics don't appear to be safe.

*At 18 years of age there is still much learning prior to being
allowed to make decisions and perform the work.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 3, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
An interactive display, with photos of all the dead, and mini-biographies, in English.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/europe/Norway-Victims-Oslo-Utoya.html?ref=world
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Aug 4, 2011 - 03:08am PT
Fear and Loathing in Norway.
Chapter 2: The Weirdness


http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/03/westboro-baptists-to-picket-funerals/comment-page-1/

Westboro Baptists to ‘picket’ funerals

The Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church, known for their protests at the funerals of American soldiers killed in Iraq, has threatened to picket the burials of victims of the recent terrorist attacks in Norway.

A press release from the church, titled “Norway must repent or perish,” announces protests at the funerals “to warn the living: they died for your sins.” The message goes on to describe the perpetrator of the attacks, Anders Behring Breivik, as “formed” and “appointed” by God and “sent… to punish Norway,” adding that “Norway made being a fag legal in 1972, and passed laws for fags to marry and adopt children in 2008. Did you think God would wink at that in-your-face sin forever?.”

‘National policy to ridicule God’
A spokesperson for the Westboro Baptists, Steve Drain, confirmed to Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) that the church was planning to travel to Norway.

‘One of the worst ideas in the world’
A chief of staff with the Oslo police district, Johan Fredriksen, told NRK that “if they go through with what they are threatening, I can only certify that this is one of the worst ideas in the world at the moment.” Fredriksen went on to say that “normal thinking people do not think in such a way,” adding that he does not think “they deserve more attention.” While Fredriksen himself said he “had a problem with taking this seriously,” he nonetheless promised that the police would “manage to take care of it” if the threats were followed through. “These statements confirm that humans are the world’s most complicated construction, this is beyond any common sense and we have problems with relating to it,” Fredriksen concluded.






"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"
-HST



PS: thanks for the link Anders.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 4, 2011 - 11:28am PT
Yes, I saw the article about the Westboro "christians", and decided to ignore it. All they want is publicity for their evil, and I see no reason to aid them.

Should they manage to get to Norway, they may be denied entry into the country - I'm sure that the FBI will happily provide Norwegian police with a list of names. And if they should somehow get to Norway, and find their way to a funeral, they may find that Norwegian laws and mores regarding freedom of speech (stupidity) are different than in the US. Most likely result is that they'd be arrested for causing a disturbance, jailed, and deported. Although as freedom of religion is constitutionally guaranteed in Norway, they won't be charged with satanism.

The news media is now looking at the police response to reports of the shootings, in particular helicopter use. Mostly second-guessing, as the enquiry will look at it in exhaustive detail. I haven't seen anything specific, but the suggestion is that the parliamentary commission will report within a year. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/ut%c3%b8ya-helicopter-response-scrutinized/
Rancidfish

Trad climber
Oslo, Norway
Aug 4, 2011 - 11:53am PT


To quote a t-shirt i saw Jonny Copp wear on the film The Sharp End: Unf*#k the world






Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 4, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
Velkommen! Du er nye her. Er du klatrer? Spiser du lutefisk? Kan du kanskje fortelle om Norge og Oslo nå, spesielt siden Utøya?
Rancidfish

Trad climber
Oslo, Norway
Aug 5, 2011 - 04:20am PT

Takk skal du ha.

Yes, I'm a climber. Mainly trad and i recently got into aid climbing.
Lutefisk, man that taste like sh#t. Almost as bad as rakfisk (rotten fish)

Norway is doin' alright, a lot of funerals this week tho. In the major newspapers there's pics form a new funeral almost every day. It also says in the paper today that the Norwegian Police will be getting help from the FBI. Because the US has something called "Passenger Name Records (PNR)" I think they're tryin' to figure out if he's part of a cell or have been working on his own.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 5, 2011 - 04:48am PT
Let the Westboro folks leave, then close the door. Don't let em back - terrorist organization. Norway won't let them in - let em go to Duibai. They can stay in Michael Jackson's old suite.

DMT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 5, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
Thanks, RF!

As of today, there have been funerals or memorials for 61 of the 77 dead. Most are attended by at least one high-ranking member of the government.

The ocean of flowers that was placed at many memorial locations, particularly downtown Oslo, is starting to be collected. Cards, books and related things are to be stored by the national archives - the sort of thing that might eventually be used in a permanent memorial.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/05/flowers-taken-in-as-dead-laid-to-rest/

The police have discovered the identity of a blogger who calls himself "fjordman", to whom the murderer repeatedly referred in his "manifesto". The blogger lives in Norway, had an extremist website until 2005, but claims never to have met the murderer, and has disavowed his actions. (THey had e-mail contact, and 'fjordman' continued to post to right-wing sites after ending his own.) The police continue to question him, and also the murderer, in particular with regard to links with other right-wing fanatics, in Norway and other countries.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/breivik-police-question-fjordman/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 9, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
Issues of racism and discrimination continue to be hotly debated in Norway in the aftermath to the Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings that the confessed perpetrator claims were an attack on the country’s multiculturalism.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/08/calls-to-tackle-racism-after-attacks/

There has also been considerable discussion of these issues in Canada since the murders. A higher proportion of Canadians are immigrants than almost any other developed country, although most are economic immigrants and family reunification rather than refugees such as in Norway. There are tensions, and concerns about assimilation and such, but a steadily growing economy can mask many things.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 9, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
Anders
Thanks for the great link to the Norwegian news in English.
This is a fine article explaining the Norwegian attitude towards "law and order" and the resilience of their society.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/28/foreigners-just-dont-get-norway/
I hope many people can learn from their strength of character.
jstan

climber
Aug 9, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
I searched on the article Skipt posted. It appeared in Front Page Mag at the link immediately below.

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/08/01/something-rotten-in-norway/

Images appearing with the article.

Credit: jstan

The next two photos were part of a series of changing graphics
Credit: jstan
Credit: jstan


Information on the author at the bottom of the piece.

About Daniel Greenfield
Daniel Greenfield, a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is a New York writer focusing on radical Islam. He is completing a book on the international challenges America faces in the 21st century.

Then I went to Canadafreepress, cf. link to get more bio
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/members/1/Greenfield/

First a graphic of the author:
Credit: jstan


Then a list of his most recent articles.




Most Recent Articles:
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A New Deal for America - Jul 27, 2011

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Anders Behring Breivik and the High Cost of Muslim Immigration - Jul 25, 2011

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The Permanent Muslim Civil War - Jul 14, 2011

The Warsaw Ghetto with an Internet Cafe - Jul 13, 2011

Maskophobia, Murderphobia and Bombphobia - Jul 12, 2011

A Disparity in Power is Not a Disparity in Morals - Jul 11, 2011

Government of Sociopaths - Jul 10, 2011

Hell Has a New Resident and Mexico Has a New Hero - Jul 9, 2011

China’s Second Great Leap Forward - Jul 7, 2011

The Jewish Vote - Jul 6, 2011

The Last Refuge of Liberty - Jul 5, 2011

Why Do We Still Celebrate the 4th of July? - Jul 4, 2011

Cowboys vs Superheroes - Jul 3, 2011

Leave Me Alones vs Make It Betters - Jun 29, 2011

Mad Media and Jewish Dogs - Jun 29, 2011

Get Well, Hugo - Jun 28, 2011

The Progressive Reactionarism of the Postmodern Left - Jun 27, 2011

Good News From Libya - Jun 26, 2011

No Muslim Terrorism To See Here - Jun 25, 2011

A Long Walk Through New York - Jun 23, 2011

Technocracy Isn’t Policy - Jun 22, 2011

A Two State Solution for Turkey? - Jun 21, 2011

How Environmentalists Cause War and Repression - Jun 20, 2011

America in a Chinese Mirror - Jun 19, 2011

No Telling Where To Go Next - Jun 18, 2011

The Liberal Apocalypse - Jun 16, 2011

Never Again - Jun 15, 2011

Loughner and the Insane State - Jun 14, 2011

Redistributing Freedom to Tyranny - Jun 12, 2011

The “Muslims First” Foreign Policy - Jun 12, 2011

What Does It All Mean - Jun 11, 2011

Beer, Ham and Muslim Shoes - Jun 10, 2011

The Rise of the Post-American Empires - Jun 8, 2011

A River of Race Runs Through It - Jun 7, 2011

Scandal Nation - Jun 6, 2011

Sink To the Bottom With Me - Jun 5, 2011

Behind the Weinergate - Jun 4, 2011

Socialism’s Army of Occupation - Jun 2, 2011

The Great Error of Israeli Normalization - Jun 1, 2011

Immemorial - May 31, 2011

Will Islam Destroy Itself? - May 30, 2011

A Day at the Races - May 29, 2011

An Enemy We Dare Not Name - May 28, 2011

Failed State Colonization - The Greatest Threat of Our Time - May 26, 2011

Scarecrow Empires and Broken Alliances - May 25, 2011

How the Left Went Wrong on Islam - May 24, 2011

Three Cheers for Terroristine - May 23, 2011

End of the World - May 22, 2011

Peace In Our Weekend - May 20, 2011


Edit:

Please note the text on the Coulter graphic

"Be among the first......"

I think evolutionary psychologists should make a study of our right wing. It will show the value of and make the future of this new discipline.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 9, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
Thanks, John - this seems to pretty much confirm the hypothesis that Greenfield is little more than an incendiary extremist, peddling his particular brand of hate. Perhaps there's some truth to some of what he says, but it's so wrapped in his ideology and agenda as to be of little consequence. No doubt there are a few in Norway, and so many other countries, of similar views. Hopefully none of them will turn their fanatacism into action. One is too many.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 9, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
Norway police are not yet convinced that Breivik acted alone. There is some evidence that he was seen with what may be accomplices a few days prior and there are questions about how he planned to escape, possibly with assistance.
The search for anyone who knew about the plans or helped Breivik continues. Reports by newspaper Aftenposten suggest that Breivik was seen wearing a “NATO sweater” covered in police markings and with two other men, not thought to be locals, in a grocery store in Kragerø, Telemark, just days before he carried out the attacks. Car monitoring records seen by the newspaper suggest that none of the vehicles registered in Breivik’s names had been driven into Kragerø, suggesting he went there by other means.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/09/experts-and-hackers-aid-terror-police/
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 9, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
Jstan,, Sounds like that guy is one those people paid by the right to produce that stuff. Like your link suggested.

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml
jstan

climber
Aug 9, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
Could be John.

Credit for the link, however, is due HFCS. HFCS is kind of a weird character. There is no part of the internet he has not poked into. I think he was the one who clued Klimmer into the back of the moon thing.

:-)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 10, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
Guys like David Yerushalmi, Frank Gaffney, and Daniel Greenfield are driving forces behind the current wave of bigotry, hate, and racism directed at muslims in the US. They've been pushing a bogus 'anti-Sharia' agenda in state legislatures which amounts to this cycle's Willie Horton. 'Sharia', like 'immigration' is simply Rovian-speak for election-driven hate speech.
BES1'st

climber
USA
Aug 10, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
I just saw this magazine for the first time.
http://www.magazines.com/product/the-sovereign

That is not the issue on the stand right now.
The one on the stand has a article dealing with
Russia, Google and alleged agreement to a US
Senate inquiry.

The article notes that the US currently needs more domestic
terrorist such as the minutemen who won US sovereignty.
The article also discusses current rights violations associated
to religions though mostly Christian in this one.

If interested call me immediately to make arrangements
for me to purchase it for you. 7144704148.
BES1'st

climber
USA
Aug 10, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
You do not need to call me, however if you called and did what
I asked I will return it noting this. Here is the issue.

August 2011
Issue 26

Here is the headline news.
1. US Order To Shut Down Millions Of Christian Websites Shocks World.

2. Boss Bashes NSA Bastards.

This is the number of the store selling the issue and he noted this number
is public and also on the internet. 7148367247 There was only 1 issue when
I just checked.
jstan

climber
Aug 10, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
"ABOUT THE SOVEREIGN
The Sovereign is a monthly tabloid newspaper featuring incendiary content about current events and life. Called "The World's Only Truth Newspaper", The Sovereign features the alternative news you won't read anywhere else."
BES1'st

climber
USA
Aug 10, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
Yes from what little I read thats what I got from it. I thought she would
be interested if still(?) or on(?) the state school board and if she is
still interested in history. Its being sold within a college neighborhood.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 10, 2011 - 04:15pm PT


Could be John.

Credit for the link, however, is due HFCS. HFCS is kind of a weird character. There is no part of the internet he has not poked into. I think he was the one who clued Klimmer into the back of the moon thing.

:-)




I've learned nothing from HFCS, except exceptional patience.


I was onto the the Apollo 20 story when it first broke in April 2007. Cmd. William Rutledge ("retiredafb"), if he is real and the story has any truth to it did for mankind an amazing thing. Regardless of the truth of story regarding Apollo 20, the mothership exists. Many official images from Apollo 15 and Apollo 17 and others verify it. It's big. It's massive. And it's not ours.


The Norway tragedy is very sad. Stuff like this shouldn't happen to anyone. Violence and hate of any kind is unChristian. He who claims to be a Christian and hates and uses violence against another human being or creature of GOD is not a Christian.

All you have to ask is "What would Jesus do?"

Many atrocities are done in GOD's name but he has nothing to do with it. They scapegoat GOD and use his name erroneously.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 10, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
Klimmer, lets not take this thread in that direction. Jstan was just trying to give HFCS the credit for the link John and I talked about. Thats all.
jstan

climber
Aug 10, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
Both Klimmer and HFCS are interesting sorts. If anything I said was interpreted as being other than fun, I must very sincerely apologize. Sometimes things get so serious we need a bit of whimsy. My bad.

I figured what I said was so far off the wall it could not be taken seriously.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 10, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
We return now to your regular programming, after something of a digression.

One interesting development is that Norwegian charities have noted considerably increased interest since 7/22, including more donations and members. One cause that has seen growth in donations has been famine relief for Somalia. A little light can overcome a lot of darkness.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/09/norwegians-more-giving-after-attacks/

However, there has been some news media criticism of the police response to the terrorist attacks. Response time and route, helicopter use and non-use, communications, etc. Whether there's anything to it remains to be seen, and the press do like to jump to conclusions. Also, the police may be the only relatively 'safe' subject to criticize.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/10/new-criticism-of-terror-response/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 11, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
The police response to criticism of their response:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/11/police-answer-terror-critics/

Again, it should all come out in the enquiry. This is likely just preliminary jostling.

(The "Views and News from Norway" website seems a credible English language source on events in that country, from their perspective. Aftenposten used to have an English summary of news on its website, but that was cancelled a few years ago. News from Norway tries to take its place, but also has other sources.)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 12, 2011 - 09:29am PT
The independent commission to investigate and report on the events of 7/22 has now been appointed, and must report by August 10th, 2012. There are ten members - nine Norwegians, plus one member with policing experience from Denmark. The commission has its own budget and secretariat. As its work will be very public, one hopes the commission will be painstaking and thorough. It seems like a credible group with the right sort of qualifications - it seems that opposition parties were at least consulted with regard to the appointments, and terms of reference for the commission.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/12/22-july-attacks-commission-appointed/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 15, 2011 - 09:23am PT
The murderer was recently taken to Utøya, to help the police reconstruct what happened. There were fears that it would turn into a news media/public spectacle, but that did not occur. The island has been under police authority since July 22nd, but will be returned to the youth wing of the Labour Party next week. (Norway has a somewhat different legal system, based IIRC in part on the Napoleonic code. The rights of defendants are if anything better protected in reality than say in the US, but defendants also have some obligation to co-operate with the police and courts.)
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/14/gunman-returns-to-his-crime-scene/

The official period of mourning ends on August 21st. There will be a memorial and concert at the Oslo Spektrum on that date, featuring amongst other things a reunion performance by the band A-ha, the only Norwegian group ever to have a #1 hit in the US, in 1985.

A statement from band members Magne Furuholmen, Paul Waaktaar-Savoy and Morten Harket read, “on July 22, we were, like everyone else in Norway and the rest of the world, shaken to our very core by the cruelty of the events and the terrible provocation against everything we stand for. We are at the same time very proud to belong to a small country where people, politicians and the royal household are united and show solidarity in encountering such a tragedy, and we are grateful to have been asked about participating in the memorial concert. We do this in order to honour those that have been taken away from us, to pay tribute to everyone that did, and is still doing, an awe-inspiring job, and in order to show our sympathy for those left behind that are now in mourning.”

The memorial will be broadcast live by state television NRK, I suspect also on its website - perhaps even with English subtitles (?).

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/12/a-ha-reunite-for-memorial-concert/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
There is a documentary on the events of 22nd July, on the NRK (Norwegian state television) website. In Norwegian only, AFAIK - maybe it's been posted to YouTube with subtitles? It includes a fair amount of footage from the summer camp on Utøya, beforehand. http://www.nrk.no/nett-tv/klipp/774282/

There was a memorial event in Ballard (Seattle district, with lots of Scandinavians, and allegedly home of the largest syttende mai parade outside of Norway) on August 14th, called Alt for Norge ("Everything for Norway") - the motto of the immensely popular King Haakon VII.

Still haven't worked out if NRK will webcast the memorial on Sunday (4:00 AM PDT), outside Norway, or if so whether it would be subtitled in English.
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Aug 19, 2011 - 06:12am PT
optimism bleeds into despair
like the dawn colors upon an ink night sky.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
Well, in this case it might be initial grief, despair and anger slowly blending into something more positive, at least on a national level. For the families of the dead and injured it may be another thing. But Norway as a whole made a clear choice soon after 22nd July, as to how it would react.

The bereaved, survivors, and families of survivors and the dead, have reacted strongly against criticism of the police for their response to the murders on Utøya. Some are calling on the news media and others to end their "witch hunt" and sensationalism, and even have a FaceBook site with over 15,000 followers.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/19/survivors-mourners-and-police-defend-terror-response/

The weekend's memorial ceremonies began today with a visit to the island by survivors, families, and dignitaries. The official period of mourning ends on Sunday. The last funeral for one of the 77 dead was today - it was delayed while the young women's sister recovered from her wounds. Lots more at:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/19/memorials-to-end-mourning-period/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:47am PT
Sunday's memorial in Oslo was broadcast live on NRK. The recording is also on their website.
http://www.nrk.no/nett-tv/direkte/nrk1/

A report on the memorial ceremony and concert:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/norway-holds-memorial-service-for-massacre-victims/article2136402/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2136402
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
A fine photo essay about the tragedy:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/14/world/europe/20110814-NORWAY.html?ref=world#1

And another report on today's memorial:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/9808308
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 22, 2011 - 10:31am PT
Credit: NRK
King Harald, speaking at the opening of the memorial yesterday. The ceremony was attended by the families of the dead and injured, police and emergency workers, the entire royal family, the Storting (parliament), the presidents and prime ministers of Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland, and many others. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/21/mourning-monarch-topped-memorial/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 22, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
Prime Minister Stoltenberg, making an equally well-received speech at the end of the memorial.
Credit: NRK
“Today we’re stopping time to remember the dead,” Stoltenberg said when the applause finally died down. “We do this as one nation. Together we won over hate. Together we embraced openness, tolerance and fellowship.”
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/21/heros-welcome-for-prime-minister/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
The Health Department has now released full details as to the dead and wounded. 77 died in the attacks, 69 at Utøya and eight in Oslo from the bomb. 159 were injured, and six continue to receive significant medical care. The remainder have been released, or are now in local rehabilitation facilities.

There were about 500 people on Utøya when the murderer arrived. Almost all of the 69 who died there did so from gunshot wounds.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/23/health-chief-updates-casualty-figures/

The murderer last appeared in court on Friday, and continues to be held incommunicado, in Norway's maximum security prison. He is only permitted contact with his lawyer, a minister, a doctor, and prison officials, and that will continue for another four weeks, at least. His complaint that being held in isolation amounts to torture fell on deaf ears.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
One of the goals of the m