Norway tragedy...

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Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 22, 2011 - 05:01pm PT

I think this is so stupid. Who in their right mind want to piss off a bunch of Vikings? Look at what they did to Rome!


http://news.yahoo.com/norway-ripped-oslo-bomb-youth-camp-shootings-185204240.html

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
Too early to tell what or who. Early reports have a tall blond haired, Norwegian speaking man dressed as a policeman with an automatic weapon killing the children. http://www.debka.com/article/21142/ towards the bottom notes :On Utoya island, police arrested a tall, blonde, Norwegian-speaking man as the suspected gunman after he was shot and wounded. They also found explosives and hand grenades at the youth camp which had been sponsored by the prime minister's Labor party.

I know that a more mellower group of folks might not exist on the planet, and we all wish them well over this unbelievable horror show. I hope that those injured recover fast, and that the perpetrators of this outrage are brought to justice so they can never do this kind of thing again.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
Nothing like jumping to conclusions fattrad--apparently an incorrect one, as the latest bulletins indicate that an individual is in custody who is Norwegian and not believed to be connected with international terrorism. More like Oklahoma City than 9/11.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
Wow, talk about poking a lion. The world likes having Norway preoccupied with handing out Peace Prizes. There is a good reason we keep them focused on "Peace." Wow. Always beware of the quiet mellow guy... When he goes off, it will be a work of art.

AFS
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
Oh, sure. It's a coincidence the shooting happened on the same day around the same time.

Islamist groups have successfully recruited all sorts of misguided dipshits from the very countries they attack.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
...with an automatic weapon.

But those are illegal there!

All sh*t aside, this is seriously bad news.

It sounds like they have the shooter in custody. Once he is thoroughly "debriefed" maybe they'll send him off like they did Quisling.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
I know who and they believe in Islam.

What nonsense. Have you conveniently forgotten Timothy McVeigh?

Death toll is 16, probably will rise. They believe the same man did the bomb and the island attack and he's in custody.

Edit: McVeigh from Wikipedia
McVeigh was awarded a Bronze Star for his service in the first Gulf War. He had been a top-scoring gunner with the 25mm cannon of the Bradley Fighting Vehicles used by the U.S. 1st Infantry Division to which he was assigned.McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military.[83]......
McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[84] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[85] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[86] In a March, 1996, interview with Time magazine, McVeigh professed his belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[84] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[87][88] In June, 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News claiming to be an agnostic.[89] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[90]
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
Aftenposten, the main newspaper in Norway, reports two attacks. A bomb, possibly a car bomb, outside government offices in central Oslo, and shooting of ten or more at a youth summer camp in Oslo harbour. They believe the attacks may be connected, but that there is no known link to any terror organization. (Neither is there very much hard information, yet.) The attacks happened in early afternoon Friday, Oslo time, and it's now nearly midnight there. Downtown Oslo was essentially evacuated after the explosion.

http://www.aftenposten.no/

Let's not jump to conclusions about another terrible event. We'll probably know soon enough exactly what happened and why. I'll see if any cousins or friends know more, but may not hear anything until Saturday. Some work or live quite close by.
Credit: Aftenposten
A photo of the aftermath of the bomb, looking west over downtown Oslo, perhaps from Holmenkollen. The island where the shootings occurred is off the photo to the right.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
Nothing like jumping to conclusions fattrad--apparently an incorrect one, as the latest bulletins indicate that an individual is in custody who is Norwegian and not believed to be connected with international terrorism. More like Oklahoma City than 9/11.

what a crazy instance of someone correctly identifying a mistake (fattad jumping to a conclusion) and the committing the exact same mistake at the same time (saying criminal not believed to be connected with int'l terrorism).
Seems like it's too early to say, unless I'm somehow missing breaking news.
boogerman

Trad climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
Wow, total idiocy on both sides. We don't know for sure who did this yet, so saying anything definitive is certainly premature; but it's not out of line to recognize that there is a group of people in this world that make this sort of mayhem their raison detre, who are known to recruit folks from the local population to bypass racial profiling, and who have threatened Norway for reprinting the Danish cartoons of Mohammed.

Let me repeat that last bit: These are people who have threatened exactly this sort of death and destruction over printing a f*#king cartoon. There are a lot of crazy, stupid, and violent people in this world, but not many of them are quite this crazy. Harboring a strong suspicion that they may be responsible is not racist. It is not discriminatory against a race, but discriminatory towards a particular belief system, and one that clearly is deserving of it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:54pm PT
There are a lot of crazy, stupid, and violent people in this world, but not many of them are quite this crazy. Harboring a strong suspicion that they may be responsible is not racist. It is not discriminatory against a race, but discriminatory towards a particular belief system, and one that clearly is deserving of it.
perfect description of McVeigh

Police arrested the suspected gunman at the camp and the government have confirmed that he is Norwegian.
So although they know the shooter is Norwegian, indeed, we really have NO idea what this is about!
death toll now 17

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
The Muslim world tends to view Norway favourably. Norway is generous with foreign/development aid. It also takes a reasonably balanced stance in the United Nations and elsewhere on a fair solution to the Palestine/Israel question, and sometimes criticizes the USA and Canada for their blind support of Israel. Norway played a key role in the meetings that led to the Oslo accord of 1993, between the Palestinian Liberation Organization and Israel.

I don't know what views al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations have of Norway and its policies, or whether its cheap rhetoric is of much interest. al Qaeda essentially seems to be a nihilistic group, which claims to hate everyone.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
Norway is also a very oil rich country which can make it a target.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
We'll know soon enough what happened, and why. There's a lack of hard information at this point, so we can speculate all we like to no effect.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
This is KNOTT a "tragedy."

It is MASS MURDER perpetrated by a whack-job(s).
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 22, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
I know four Norwegian climbers personally and a lot of Americans with Norwegian blood.

Sorry this happened to our friends there. I hope the death toll stays small and that the perps are captured.

We're with you Norway.

Give the Israel dead horse a break Fatty, jeez. You ahow a remarkable lack of tact at times.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Jul 22, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
It's a tragedy anytime this happens, weather a market in Kabul, or Norways capital. From info trickling out it sounds like it might be the work of a neo-nazi.

I will never be able to fathom what drives some to random acts of murderous violence.
Gearhead

Trad climber
Novato Ca
Jul 22, 2011 - 08:43pm PT
No reply from Fattrad so far
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 22, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
Go Israel!

They go through this very real fear every single minute of every single day. They have rockets fired at their children just about every day.

They don't deserve it just like Norway doesn't deserve it just like Mumbai doesn't deserve it just like ....

Innocent people don't "deserve" anything except our kindness.

Yes, it is that simple.


Skip


WTF does this have to do with go Israel?? The first to jump on the Anti-Islam bandwagon with Fatty, before things are known in any detail.

I know you don't understand this skip, but there are innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, KSA, Jordan, Egypt, and yay verily, even in the future state of Palestine. Most of those innocent people in all of those countries just happen to be Muslims. God, what ignorant pigs we come off as at times.....






survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 22, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
Bump for right wing extremism.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 22, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
Faatrad....israel will defend Norway....On what? Snowshoes?
Tobia

Social climber
GA
Jul 22, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
It's a tragedy anytime this happens, whether a market in Kabul, or Norways capital

That is a point that hopefully no one will argue about.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:14am PT
Don't worry Norway or America, Israel will protect you.
F U C K O F F Fats. Seriously. Do it.

There is no way we will know what happened in Norway or why or what or any of that stuff. It's horrible to all ends of the earth a violent attack happened there. It can happen anywhere. We have no idea where is next nor why.

The world is falling to pieces with this asymmetric warfare. It really scares the crap outta me what with my son in the military now.........
QITNL

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:15am PT
Wow, this is really awful, they are reporting at least 80 dead, a lot of them kids. It sounds like the same guy set up the bombs then shot up the camp. My condolences to all of our Norwegian friends.

From
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/22/explosion-damages-buildings-in-norwegian-capital/
or
http://www.npr.org/2011/07/22/138626825/police-norway-bombing-shootings-domestic-terror

Righties or lefties, read either you wish - they share the same text:

A police official said the suspect appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organizations at all." The official spoke on condition of anonymity because that information had not been officially released by Norway's police.

"It seems it's not Islamic-terror related," the official said. "This seems like a madman's work."

The official said the attack "is probably more Norway's Oklahoma City than it is Norway's World Trade Center." Domestic terrorists carried out the 1995 attack on a federal building in Oklahoma City, while foreign terrorists were responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

The official added, however, "it's still just hours since the incident happened. And the investigation is going on with all available resources."

The attacks formed the deadliest day of terror in Western Europe since the 2004 Madrid train bombings, when shrapnel-filled bombs exploded, killing 191 people and wounding about 1,800.

The motive was unknown, but both attacks were in areas connected to the ruling Labor Party government. The youth camp, about 20 miles (35 kilometers) northwest of Oslo, is organized by the party's youth wing, and the prime minister had been scheduled to speak there Saturday.

A 15-year-old camper named Elise said she heard gunshots, but then saw a police officer and thought she was safe. Then he started shooting people right before her eyes.

"I saw many dead people," said Elise, whose father, Vidar Myhre, didn't want her to disclose her last name. "He first shot people on the island. Afterward he started shooting people in the water."

Elise said she hid behind the same rock that the killer was standing on. "I could hear his breathing from the top of the rock," she said.

She said it was impossible to say how many minutes passed while she was waiting for him to stop.
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:24am PT


Too f*#king sad. Not that they'll read it, but condolences to those affected.


I assumed that Fattrad was being ironic but maybe he was just wrong.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2011 - 12:31am PT
Fatty was being ironic... That's his "thing."
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:40am PT
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:58am PT
From reports I've read, this man was wearing a police uniform and rallied a group of children...then executing them.

Holy sh#t....
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2011 - 01:01am PT
Sociopaths always feel justified, better than the rest of "the sheep" and... They don't feel remorse. I bet this guy feels heroic. He won't be taking his own life because he feels wonderful about the results.

His IQ must be very high in order to pull this off and... He is good looking which I bet he has used throughout his life for getting his way. This also has helped his ego and confidence expand into his belief that he is a super human. He must be a master manipulator. I bet he even put his picture up just so we can all get to look at him after this event. He's stroking his ego...

Crazy mofo...

I bet he even has a plan on how to fight the courts... Claim insanity? Drugs? Etc...

I really want to shoot him.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:45am PT
Aftenposten now reports 80 or more murdered at the Labour Party youth camp on Utøya, west of Oslo. Many more injured, some seriously. Semi-automatic or automatic weapons were used, and an unexploded bomb there is being deactivated. Seven or more are dead in the bombing in downtown Oslo, as they continue to search the wreckage. As mentioned upthread, they've arrested a 32 year old man ("ethnic Norwegian") and are questioning him, and searching his apartment. I believe he was arrested at or near Utøya, and may have set the bomb off first, then travelled to the island. Unidentified sources in the police say he has links to right-wing extremists, which in context of Norwegian policing means they're putting together the details and looking for accomplices. Not speculation, in other words. Downtown Oslo, and Utøya, have largely been sealed off to the public, in part by the military.

For background:
 Norway has fewer than five million people. 90 or so deaths is proportionately about three times as many as those who died in the USA on 11/9/01.
 The Labour Party has been the government in Norway for most of the time since World War II, often in coalitions. Despite the name, it is now slightly to the left of centre, in other words a liberal democratic party with a labour thread.
 Norway abolished capital punishment after the executions of Quisling and other collaborators in 1946 - even if the attacker(s) wasn't criminally insane.
 Norway has large armed forces. All young men must serve a year, and young women may if they wish. It is normal for the armed forces to take on a civil defence role.
 Ownership of rifles and shotguns is common in Norway, for hunting. Hand guns are heavily restricted, and semi-automatic and automatic weapons essentially banned to the public.

It's now Saturday morning in Norway, and the news there is of nothing else. I'm sure my cousins and friends there, even if not directly affected, have enough to worry about without my pestering them. It seems likely that King Harald, and possibly Prime Minister Stoltenberg, will address the country today.

Fattrad, skipt: Please apologize for your ignorant comments upthread, and remove them. If you have any decency, apologize for them. Your ideological ranting has no place here - even if the attack had been by Islamic terrorists. As Mark Twain put it, better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool by some, than to open your mouth, and prove that you're a fool to everyone.
QITNL

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:05am PT
Thanks for that reply and the additional information, Mighty Hiker. Regarding the proportional loss to the country, I had a feeling that was the case.

What Fattrad wrote has been bothering me all day. That probably makes him happy. It's my fault for letting myself be bothered - but sometimes I'd rather be bothered than not.

On the other hand, I feel odd about anyone who encourages, inflames or even tolerates this rhetoric here, those who a blind eye, oh that's just Jeff. I might be the new guy here - but someone checking in for the first time on the Internet, they're gonna think - hey, this place is kinda fukked up. They don't know our politards are not climbers; nonetheless, by association, I am embarrassed. I am complicit.

I was climbing with a real cool dude up in Tuolumne last weekend. I'm sure some of you guys know him. He knows this place. But he says he never comes here, too much ugliness, too much hate. I told him I get some good info here and I make a conscious effort to contribute, but I can't argue with that.

This thread - of all threads - should never have become a political thread. A summer camp got shot up. What are the odds a couple of climbers may be among the victims? Or kids who barely got a chance?

What will we as fellow climbers do to respond to this tragedy? Probably shoot off our mouths and little else.

Okay, I'll go back into the woods now, thanks.
QITNL

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:10am PT
Well I'll tell ya, Riley Wyna, you are just throwing gas on the fire and that display of ignorance bothers me, too.
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Jul 23, 2011 - 07:46am PT
I hope the SOB dies a VERY slow death. Even if he gets life, somebody will probably get to him. This is so tragic. Poor kids.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:48am PT
Andersen said the suspect posted on websites with Christian fundamentalist tendencies.


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:52am PT
"A common topic of coversation in Norway is that this person will be convicted to the harshest penalty that we can give him, which is 21 years in prison," Sandberg said. "That means he is out after 16 years. He might be out after 14 years. And then he will be a free man. And he killed so many. We don't have laws that could lay out a penalty for what he's done."

Wow....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:03am PT
Breivik was active on Internet forums, where he made anti-Islamic posts.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4181106.ece


He would have fit right in Fatrad's Clash of Civilizations threads.
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:03am PT
AFS,

I know who and they believe in Islam.


Don't worry Norway or America, Israel will protect you.

The evil one

You stupid fat piece of trash. It was your brethren who did this.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:06am PT
I'm just reading that the company Breivik formed to acquire the fertilizer (needed to make the bomb) was formed three years ago. They think he was planning the attack for at least that long.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4181455.ece
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:11am PT
I hope fatty leaves his post up as a reminder of the hazards of reactionary thinking.

NPR is saying 85 now! Man. Condolences all around.








Jul 22, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
AFS,

I know who and they believe in Islam.


Don't worry Norway or America, Israel will protect you.

The evil one




graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:22am PT
The New York Times is saying that 91 bodies have been found so far and they are still looking.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:32am PT
Thanks, Lolli.

The death toll is now at least 91.

There was and will be an event in Norway, titled Tenn et lys for de døde og skadde etter tragedien i Oslo og Utøya. ("Light a candle for the dead and injured after the tragedy in Oslo and Utøya.") A purely private thing. About 810,000 indicate that they will participate. 4:30 PM Friday (yesterday), and again at 11:30 PM on Wednesday. (Norway time, so maybe subtract ten hours for PDT?)
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/event.php?eid=244185822272540

(I saved a screen shot of the idiotic comments made earlier by certain ignoramuses.)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:35am PT
last night, just to see what the enemy is up to, I thought i'd tune into Sun Media, our Canadian version of Fox News. Sure enough, they were ranting at length about The massacre "possibly being" the result of Islamic extremists, even though by then there was ample evidence that was not the case. They would occasionally reference the fact that the perpetrator was blond and blue eyed then return to their analysis of Islamic extremism in Norway and the likelyhood of Canada seeing a similar Islamic attack.

Yadda yadda... not once did they mention, as other networks were noting, that the blond whitey was a right winger and christian evangelist. Rather sick of them to co-opt this tragedy to further their agenda.

My profound condolences to those effected
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
Ease up there Riley. This is tragedy. I don't understand why it can't be compared to our Oklahoma city. Can you explain this?
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
Children where also killed in the Oklahoma bombing. I bet their parents understand a lot about what is going on in Norway.

It is extremely horrible and... I bet laws will change in Norway in order to persecute this guy properly.

Beyond that... The loss of a child in such a way... Oh, I can't imagine the pain.

My deepest condolences...
AFS
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
What a truly horrible thing to happen. Condolences to all who have friends, family who are struck by this tragedy.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
I was thinking of a life sentence. Torture is not my thing though he does inspire me. I do believe that some people should never be released and... I really don't think he deserves to be in a mental institution since he knew perfectly well what he was doing. I think having him around people that are truly mentally ill... Well, I bet he'll enjoy torturing his weaker fellow inmates and sweet talk out of being caught. Plus insanity is too kind a word for his kind of evil.

I would prefer him to be with rapist and murderers. They can handle him. Plus remember that he's smart, don't ever underestimate his power over others. He'll always be very dangerous.

AFS
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
Well said Lolli & thank you.
My heart goes out to everyone.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
I'm not a religious man, but my thoughts go out to all those involved, their families, and the people of Norway. That one sadistic mofo can create all this tragedy, knows it, and still carries it out deeply saddens me.

I wonder, was it a chemical imbalance that pushed him over the edge, or perhaps the constant bombardment of information from the internet and cable media that crumpled an already weak and evil mind?

I'm sorry to hear of this, and fatty can go and suck a dick, trying to tie his personal thoughts into this. Shame On You.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
Skip, your flippant response is just dumb.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:42pm PT
I was surprised by the post that said maximum penalty was 21 years, with parole after 16.
According to Wikipedia (hey it's how I do US legal research sometimes, albeit with verification), that's not quite right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway

He may spend life in prison regardless of any finding of insanity, as long as he's found to be a danger to society.

Even so, I would imagine many of the survivors may be disturbed to know that this guy could get of prison while he's still fairly young, at least I think that's how most Americans would feel. Sometimes being "nice" to criminals isn't so nice to their victims.
jamatt

Social climber
Asheville, NC
Jul 23, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
judging from how well we're all getting along when discussing this tragedy:

Credit: Walt Kelly
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
Seriously Skip, you're just being crass. I wasn't asking for input, merely stating a thought.

OK? Let it go.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
What does my nonsense mean?

Tell me what I think.

:)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jul 23, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
hey there say, all....

this was too sad, to read about... but a friend shared a lot of details, so i am here to offer condolences to norway, and the loved ones of these young children and all...

:(
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
All of Scandinavia must be in shock. Sure the cartoons Lolli sends us make fun of rivalries but they are indeed close neighbors. I've worked for a Danish company. I've travelled in Norway and Sweden, I've never felt safer. Police appear professional and are respectful and helpful. The populace also appear to strongly believe in our common humanity, the Danes I worked with, certainly. I have in-law family in Sweden. This must be terribly unnerving.
My heart goes out to all the wonderful Scandinavian people. They are tough and resilient. I don't think this will significantly alter their outlook and way of life. I certainly hope not.

Lolli.....well said
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
Vengeance is mine saith the Lord
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
One doesn't have to be a Christian to know what Jesus taught.

I agree that Justice must be brought. What is the justice for a hate monger like Jeff?

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
While we're at it, let's back off on Jeff. He's as entitled to his opinions as any of us. When we start fighting among ourselves the terrorists score a point or two. Seeding fear and dissension is one of their goals.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
While we're at it, let's back off on Jeff. He's as entitled to his opinions as any of us. When we start fighting among ourselves the terrorists score a point or two. Seeding fear and dissension is one of their goals.

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men do nothing. If Jeff is good, then he can apologize. Why is Jeff entitled to speak his mind, but those of us who disagree with him shouldn't?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
We should certainly call out people who speak nonsense, as I did in my post on page 1. We can do it respectfully without devolving into schoolyard name calling and bullying. The truth will set you free....or something like. And soon enough the full truth of this tragedy will out. The speciousness of Jeff's original post has already become apparent, it speaks for itself. Leave it be.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:31pm PT
Tha dood, you are taking my statement out of context. I was pointing out how certain observations as to the perpetrators religious affiliation was ignored by Sun Media / Fox North for the purpose of perpetuating their agenda of Islam bashing. I made no personal statement either favoring or disfavoring his religious standing.

not once did they mention, as other networks were noting, that the blond whitey was a right winger and christian evangelist

furthermore, I have many friends who are christian, and i have a great deal of respect for how they conduct themselves. Perhaps you are suggesting that I insinuated fault in the conduct of "christian Evangelists" and to be fair I may be mistaking "Evangelist" for "Fundamentalist". I'm not sure if there is a huge difference or not but one or the other was stated by a number of news media networks. Anyway, Those i find fault with, and i state as such, were the right wing propagandists Sun Media masquerading as purveyors of the News.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
Skip.. I apologized to you. Thats all I'm going to do. If you want to defend Jeff's actions, then go for it. But most of us recognize how thoughtless he was, and that he has a penchant for trying to start trouble. One doesn't have to resort to physical violence to behave inappropriately.

I don't think much of your so called Christianity either. Revelations has multiple stories about Christians like you.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
Jeff is "The evil one"
so it makes sense that he would be evil
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
I know who and they believe in Islam.

This isn't a joke. It an attempt to foster hatred and fear and rally people to his clash. Its ugly.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
Another tragic Right Winger gone mad, and wanted to kill socialists, intellectuals and Muslims.
Right Wingers just hate those people.


Anders Behring Breivik: Oslo, Norway Bombing 'Necessary'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/23/anders-behring-breivik-oslo-bombing_n_907880.html

OSLO, July 23 (Reuters) - A suspected right-wing fanatic accused of killing at least 92 people deemed his acts "atrocious" yet "necessary" as Norway mourned victims of the nation's worst attacks since World War Two.

"He has said that he believed the actions were atrocious, but that in his head they were necessary," lawyer Geir Lippestad told independent TV2 news.

Police said Breivik gave himself up after admitting to a massacre in which at least 85 people died, mostly young people attending a summer camp of the youth wing of Norway's ruling Labour Party on an idyllic island.

Breivik was also arrested for the bombing of Oslo's government district that killed seven people hours earlier. Norway's toughest sentence is 21 years in jail.

Breivik hated "cultural marxists," wanted a "crusade" against the spread of Islam and liked guns and weightlifting, web postings, acquaintances and officials said.

A video posted to the YouTube website showed several pictures of Breivik, including one of him in a Navy Seal type scuba diving outfit pointing an automatic weapon.

"Before we can start our crusade we must do our duty by decimating cultural marxism," said a caption under the video called "Knights Templar 2083" on the YouTube website, which took down the video on Saturday.

A Norwegian website provided a link to a 1,500 page electronic manifesto which says Breivik was the author. It was not possible to verify who posted the video or wrote the book.

"Once you decide to strike, it is better to kill too many than not enough, or you risk reducing the desired ideological impact of the strike," the book said.

Norway has traditionally been open to immigration, which has been criticized by the Progress Party, of which Breivik was for a short time a member. The Labour Party, whose youth camp Breivik attacked, has long been in favor of immigration.

Police took almost 1.5 hours to stop the massacre, the worst by a single gunman in modern times. "The response time from when we got the message was quick. There were problems with transport out to the island," he said, defending the delay.

Witnesses said the gunman, wearing a police uniform, was able to shoot unchallenged for a prolonged period. He picked off his victims on Utoeya island northwest of Oslo forcing youngsters to scatter in panic or to jump into the lake to swim for the mainland.


The bloodbath was believed to be the deadliest attack by a lone gunman anywhere in modern times.

The suspect, tall and blond, owned an organic farming company called Breivik Geofarm, which a supply firm said he had used to buy fertilizer -- possibly to make the Oslo bomb.

Home-grown right wing anti-government militants have struck elsewhere in the past, notably in the United States, where Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people with a truck bomb in Oklahoma City in 1995.

cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:00am PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:13am PT
The vigil Tenn et lys for de døde og skadde etter tragedien i Oslo og Utøya (Light a candle for the dead and injured after the tragedy in Oslo and Utøya), a world-wide memorial, will now be on Saturday July 31st at 11:30 PM. (Presumably Norwegian time, which translates into 1:30 PM PDT.) It seems to have been postponed.

There is nothing formal about it - simply light a candle, and think of those who died.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/event.php?eid=244185822272540

There will a vigil at the Scandinavian Centre in Burnaby tomorrow, July 24th. 6540 Thomas Street, any time from 12:30 on. There will be a book of condolences, which I imagine will be given ambassador Eikenberg to forward to Norway.

Perhaps other events are planned - I've been away all day, and so may be behind the times.

As the saying goes, better to light one candle, than curse the darkness. There are too many here who seem to want to blindly answer ignorance with ignorance, violence with violence, anger with anger, and hatred with hatred.
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Jul 24, 2011 - 09:57am PT
The political "spectrum" is warped into a circle, the extremist on the right are joined with the extremist on the left and where they meet is insanity. Their world is black and white with no shades of grey. There is no light in their blindness. What a sad and tragic event, indeed we should all light a candle to remind us we can keep the darkness away.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Thanks, Lolli.

It is a waste of time to discuss capital punishment - Norway's principles are stronger than that. They made an exception with Quisling and about ten others who were guilty of high treason during World War II, and it is still quite controversial.

Whether the murderer was insane in the legal sense remains to be seen. He was clearly a sociopath. He seems to have been able to think logically, and plan what he did, including the timing, and weapons and explosives. To the point not of attacking say Muslims, the easy tactic, but to attack those who eventually would have been the people who would be in charge of the party controlling the government which allowed and continued to allow Muslims and other "foreigners" to enter Norway.

And yes, the far left and the far right meet somewhere, and there's little to distinguish between their pathologies.

Norwegian police have now arrested six others, but there's no information as to what if any connection they had to the murderer. My guess is that the police want to know what they knew about the murderer, and/or that they're involved in simiilar groups. Indeed, anyone involved in such groups in Scandinavia can probably expect a visit from the police in the near future. Extreme right-wing, neo-Nazis, xenophobic, and the like. Those who operate the forums which such persons post to, also. (The murderer had often posted to fundamentalist Christian websites, which is suggestive if not conclusive - most hard right-wingers probably think of themselves as "Christian", although they're anything but.)

I suspect that Norway will also change its gun laws, to prohibit the public from owning automatic weapons. I was very surprised to hear that it is allowed - there is no legitimate reason for any citizen to have such a weapon.

The death toll stands at 92.

jedge, skipt et al: Please don't import US 'values' and beliefs into the discussion, or impose your ideology. It's out of place.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
Det var snilt av Fattrad.
Good on you Fattie.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
I am sorry Lolli and Reilly. But he didn't apologize for his racist comment and for jumping to conclusions. Conclusions meant to incite hatred for Islam. After all Jeff has written about Islam, that small statement isn't enough. If it had been an Islamic extremist, then he would have gloated for weeks and months and done nothing but blame Islam for destroying this world. Yet when it turns out to be someone with right wing ideologies, does he blame right wing ideology? No.. he calls him a whacko.

He is quick to blame Islam for whackos who say they follow it, but he does not blame the right wing for the whackos who profess that philosophy. It is a double standard and it is wrong.

Plus he doesn't say he is sorry for saying what he said. Just that he is wrong. He most definitely would have gloated if he had turned out to be correct. Then gone on to blame Islam for the worlds current troubles.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
Prime Minister Stoltenberg: "I have a message to the person who attacked us and the people who are behind it: You're not going to destroy us. You're not destroying our democracy and our work for a better world. We're a small country but a very proud country. No one can bomb us to be quiet. No one can shoot us to be quiet. No one can ever scare us from being Norway."

Said Friday, before there was much information on the attacks or their cause.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
Hey everyone,

Dang it, we need to stop the cycle. When someone says they are wrong, that should be good enough. When it isn't... Well, what do you want us to do... "Hate?" I don't think promoting hate is ever good. We all do massive stupid stuff. We need to get over it in order to get to the good stuff.

I'll save my hate for this killer of the children. He has earned it...

Anastasia
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Jul 24, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
Fatty - at least you had the balls to chime back in and admit it. Some don't.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 24, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Here here.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 24, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
Thats it? He doesn't apologize and you accept what he says? Mercy.. no wonder this world is messed up. No accountability for ones actions. He is the one preaching hate of Muslims and Islam. Just look at his clash of civilizations threads. Multiple thread after thread. I don't hate Jeff. I want him held accountable for his actions. Admitting he was wrong is a start, but after all that he has said about Islam, admitting he made a mistake is not nearly enough. He needs to apologize for being quick to judge.

He will go on to preach hate towards Muslims because people turn a blind eye, and then there really will be a clash of civilizations. Thats what he and his friends want.

Have at it then, but you are making a mistake if you accept that piddly answer from him.


Are you now going to say I am preaching hate against you for making a mistake?

Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
John, Seriously... He said he was wrong! It might not be in the words you specifically wanted but it's an apology. Why do you so badly need him to be beaten down? It's scaring me.

Riley, I've met the guy in person. He is the first person here to donate to any of our causes. Plus, if I am ever broken down on the road. I hope it's Fatty that drives by because... I know he would stop and help get me back on the road. From your words, you don't know him. You are like the shooter, spewing hate for the love of it.

It's wrong damn it.

Anastasia




donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 24, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
I can just imagine what this thread would be like if the perp were a bearded, swarthy Muslim instead of a blond with "chisled features."
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
Yes Donini,

Plus we will be attacking each even more... We are such a fine bunch.

AFS
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 24, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
John, Seriously... He said he was wrong! It might not be in the words you specifically wanted but it's an apology. Why do you so badly need him to be beaten down? It's scaring me.

I'm sorry that you are frightened Anastasia. Perhaps you should read Jeff's clash of civilizations threads. Then you might be frightened of the wolf in sheeps clothing. Its easy to be friendly to people you like. Jeff says Dick Cheney is a "nice" guy. He gives to charity. Et cetera Et cetera. Should we then accept that Dick Cheney is a "nice" guy? I'm sorry, but Jeff can do all sorts of nice things, but his real heart is revealed on his Clash of civilizations threads.

But lets all just look away because that is too hard. Its hard to call someone out for the blackness in their hearts. Its much easier to let bygones be bygones while they continue to foster hatred of an entire society. Hatred of blacks didn't just go away. It just got smart and went underground. Ask any black person. The same is true of Muslims. Jeff preaches fear. Read his threads.

I'm not suggesting we banish Jeff. I'm suggesting that you look deeper and don't just accept his first answer.

You are a trusting and friendly person Anastasia, and you want to believe the best of everyone. I want to believe that also, but I am too aware of where evil lurks. I'm not saying that Jeff is evil. But I am saying that how he attacks the Muslim faith is wrong.

He owes more then a simple.. "I made a mistake".

I'm not asking you to stop being friendly. I'm asking you to be more discerning.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 24, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
Sure Skip. I admit my apology was weak. I am still angry with you for making fun of me for losing my house. That was a very painful experience and to have you make fun of me for being sick and trying to do what I thought was right, was no fun. So just to be clear. I did not accept your apology for making fun of me. There was no heart in it.

Now we are on even footing. Would you like to continue?
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Jul 24, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
FACT: IS THE FARMACY CLOSED TODAY OR SUMTHIN?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
There is no explaining this. A terrible tragedy. Horrible. I can't imagine how the families feel.

But who knows? After all, this is where the word "berserk" comes from.

I am glad Lolli and Anders have brought us up to speed on Norwegian law.
I am against capitol punishment as well (sends the wrong message, doesn't effectively deter, administered unequally, and gives an easy exit for the offender), and am glad Norway eschews it, but this miscreant phsycho needs to be locked away for good.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 24, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
Must be. Farmacy closed till business picks up.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 24, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
I want to thank Lolli and Mighty Hiker, two of our resident Scandinavians for their clear, heartfelt and deeply moral posts. And I thank fattrad for his apology.

It always best to recognize our anger and then use our humanity and respect for the law to demand justice.
As Piton Ron said: capital punishment is not only immoral to many of us, it is outlawed in all but a very few industrialized nations. Most dramatically, the US, Japan, Singapore and China.
It's been shown conclusively by many studies that capital punishment is not a deterrent. Don't you think this monster (who is almost certainly sane by legal definition) would rather be executed and become a martyr? Norway will likely rethink their maximum detention laws, since there will always be a small number of incurable sociopaths who need to be locked away for the rest of their lives.

As of right now, 93 dead, 98 injured, an unstated number still missing.

dumb sucker is ok, but I do take offense to be called liberal
I am not that far to the right
Something to make me laugh out of all the nonsense.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
That so, Skip?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
It is natural to be angered by events such as those on Friday. They pass human understanding, and flout our sense of justice, fairness and decency. It is also natural to be angered by some of the posts here. Even if no one you know was directly affected, you want to respond. It's easy for such a response to be negative, or at least unconstructive.

I was out on Friday evening, and when I got home heard that over 90 were dead, and something about how it had happened. I'd planned to climb on Saturday, but was in no state to do so. Instead, I spent the day working off some energy and anger, on a graffiti-removal project at Squamish. Hard, dirty work, hanging on a rope. Something I've meant to do for a while. I had to carry about 30 litres of water, plus climbing gear, plus the Removall and stuff. 80 - 90% of the paint is gone, and after a second pass, 98+% will be. It will still be possible to see where it was - the solvents in the paint kill the underlying lichen, and so for a while there will be white instead of giant red letters. But I'll feather the edges, and try some other things to help it blend in. (Anyone know how to grow lichens, reasonably quickly?)

There's little I can do for the dead, or for Norway. (I'm a Canadian of Norwegian descent, but have spent time there at school, teaching climbing, climbing, visiting relatives, etc.) But I wanted to do something that was at least a little positive.

I'm afraid that I agree with Lolli - it doesn't seem that skipt has much to contribute here, if anything.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
Anders and Lolli,

I admire your responses and how you are both sensitive and productive about this tragedy. We all should be mourning this loss and exist beyond the pettiness of others. Me, myself and I am still too immature to pull that off, but heck, I'm trying.

We should be focusing on how to help Norway. I have no idea how, maybe we should send a joint letter of condolences to one of the climbing clubs, etc? I don't know... All I know is that Norway is a tight community and this must be extremely painful for all of them.

Anastasia
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
Prime Minister Stoltenberg, at a service in Oslo cathedral today (translated):

“You should know that we’re crying with you. We feel for you… I am proud of living in a country that has managed to stand up on its feet in such a critical time… We are still horrified over what happened. But we will never give up our values.”

Mr. Stoltenberg repeated his call to defy the terrorist’s anti-immigration and anti-multiculturalism rage by reinforcing those very values: “Our answer is more democracy, more openness, and more humanity - - but never naivety,” he told the congregation.


We are going to show up as the Norway you know,” said foreign minister Jonas Gahr Støre. “We are not going to close off our streets, we are not going to lock up our kids, we are going to stick to our democratic values."

"Police and politicians vowed to investigate a movement whose supporters range from authors of popular books on “Eurabia” and “the Muslim tide” to more violent figures like Mr. Brievik who also appear to have ties to little-known extreme-right groups. At the same time, officials vowed not to let this investigation interfere with Norway’s legendary openness."

There were two more police raids in Oslo today, but no word on arrests. The police are also investigating links with racist groups elsewhere in Europe.

Breivik apparently agrees that he did what he did, but denies criminal responsibility. He will be formally charged on Monday. It sounds like he wants a platform from which to further promote his evil, but that shouldn't get far in a well-managed trial.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/a-nation-in-mourning-defies-gunman-special-bullets-used-in-shooting-spree/article2107826/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
There will be a national minute of silence in Norway at noon on Monday July 25th, in memory of the dead. The king and prime minister will attend, and a book of condolences will be placed at the University of Oslo. Sweden will also participate in the moment of silence.

There will also be an official online condolence site - will post details when I find them.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4182655.ece
QITNL

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 05:36pm PT
I'd also like to thank Anders and Lolli for their informed and compassionate messages.

Here is another good up-to-date source of information:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/jul/24/norway-attacks-live-updates
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
Likely not dum dums (see my thread on the .303).

My guess; Glaser safety slugs.
Bullets filled with suspended shot that dumps its energy quickly causing remarkable tissue disruption.

To say that even the military doesn't use them is disingenuous.
The new unleaded "green" round that the military is moving to does a similar dump with likewise efficacy.
shady

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
Lolli:

About the insanity thing. I worked for over a decade in a psych hospital. Even though I was in the maintenance department, I learned a few things.
If this guy is indeed insane, he will never feel remorse for his deeds.
His brain construction was made without the capacity for what we call, morality, empathy or compassion.
This is why we have the ruling, "not guilty through reason of insanity." This doesn't mean he didn't do it, but more, he did do it, but he doesn't have the capacity to understand what he did was wrong, and therefore is a true threat to society, And in this case he would spend the rest of his life incarcerated.

Regardless of his sanity, he should never breath the sweet air of freedom ever again.

Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
Grrr... He doesn't deserve to be heard. I don't think "anything" he wants should be considered. His wishes and desires are "freedoms." Freedoms that should be forever denied to him for the rest of his life. Please... Someone lock him up into a solitary room where he will never have human contact again and... Throw away the key.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
Riley,
first post (but the 19th still cracks me up);

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1463876/303
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jul 24, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
Yes Riley,
The extra heinous Canadian cases are conducted with overbearing discretion concerning public interest. This is to keep the facts untainted but can lead to a perception that the victims of these crimes are being left out in the cold.

The basis from where this misunderstanding comes from is the Crown (The State)pursues punishment of a crime independent of the wishes of either the agrieved or the charged. The weight of the state has no problem going after criminals but don't expect the prosecutor to give the victim an easy ride either.

Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
I can't help but think of Richard Ramirez, a.k.a. The Night Stalker, serial killer, a man that "enjoyed killing..." I can't help remember that during his trial he had developed a "fan club." Oh, I can't express how much that disturbed me! Especially hearing how the women were so captivated by his good looks, etc. etc. I was just a child during that trial and even I understood how horrific all of it was.

Any form of attention to killers should be illegal.

How can anyone "like" someone who had committed the most terrible deeds? All I can say is I hope he is not allowed an audience. There are some very sick people who will be attracted to the murders, to him, etc.

AFS
jstan

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
Around 1790 Parisian mobs were quite rightfully angry at their mistreatment, they cut off a few heads, and millions died in the Napoleonic wars.

In the 1930's the Germans were very angry over the terms of the treaty ending WWI, they formed lynch mobs that beat up people on the street, and even more millions of people died.

Here on ST we have angry people. What have we learned that convinces us our judgment is better?

Events such as this should unify and drive us to do better.

Just the opposite has been accomplished.

The anger is multiplied.

Only a matter of time till the critical threshold is reached.

Only a matter of time.



Can we not find a better method of population control?
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
jstan,

I don't get it either. All I can figure out is that people must really love to hate. They love to judge, feel the rush of "righteous anger." They are made powerful by their convictions without care or empathy. They never bother taking the time to consider the truth behind it all, the other side of the story, etc.

I also know people say the worst things behind people's back and on the internet when they don't need to face their victims.

Heck, I know tons of people that have spoken bad things about me without ever speaking ever to me about it. It's as if they love the story so much they don't want it shaken, changed, ever exposed to the light.

It's chicken sh#t.

One day someone is going to murder another for the wrong reasons and... In many ways we've allowed it to happen.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 24, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
It makes them feel better about their own lives.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 24, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
Another nice and interesting thread Ruined By Skip
Another Right Wing Extremist Being the Apologist for heinous Right Wing Extremist behavior
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
My father is flying his Norwegian flag over his house, which is a nice touch.

It seems likely that the Norwegian legal system will be well-prepared for events tomorrow, to prevent the court appearance from becoming a circus, or providing the murderer with a platform to spew his evil.

The murders of the children took place on Utøya (="Out Island"), which is on the east side of a large, "H" shaped lake, 30 km or so northwest of Oslo. The lake is named Tyrifjorden, although it is freshwater - it's fairly common for lakes in Norway to be called 'fjords'. Geographers internationally mostly use the word for bodies of salt water.

Wes: Yes, I talked with the local garden shop, and they recommended a mixture of lichen and buttermilk (!) to regrow lichen. I'm not sure they quite understood where I need to grow the stuff, though. If I apply it during dry summer weather, it will dry up and blow away. In winter, wash away. Maybe during damp but not wet weather, giving the stuff a chance? Any advice your girlfriend can provide would be welcome.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:08am PT
There's not too much violence in the world.

The world has just the right amount of violence in it.
The world is already perfect.
It is what it is.
Ancient patterns that endlessly repeat.

Condolences to friends and families of the victims.
RIP
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:13am PT
Word.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:24am PT
It appears that one of the targets of the murderer was former prime minister Gro Harlem Brundtland, who had spoken at the youth camp at Utøya a day earlier. Prime Minister Stoltenberg was to speak at it the day after the murders. Brundtland has a high international profile.

The names of the victims will not be released for about a week. Probably not a good week for the tabloids to harass the families.

Denmark will also observe a minute of silence at noon on Monday. It's now morning there, so perhaps Lolli will check in later.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:28am PT
Credit: Scandinavia and the World website
(Suggested by Lolli earlier.)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
What doesn't make sense to me is that if you're anti-Muslim immigration, why slaughter a bunch of your on countrymen? At a youth camp?

God bless the fallen.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
Norwegian prison isn't really prison.



That looks like the Super 8 in Coos Bay. Much nicer than the Motel 6 in Eureka. It's a hell of a lot nicer than our Cadets at West Point have it.





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1277158/Halden-Prison-Inside-Norways-posh-new-jail.html

If he's found to be an especially bad egg, he's sent off to an island "prison":



That looks like the B&Bs at places like Haceta Head and Cabrillo Point Lighthouses ( which go for about $400/night and up ).



Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
Time to round up all Loony Right wingers and throw them in jail
For crimes against humanity
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
What doesn't make sense to me is that if you're anti-Muslim immigration, why slaughter a bunch of your on countrymen? At a youth camp?

God bless the fallen.

Blue, as I have read it, the youth camp these children were attending is run by the Labor Party. It may be that the killer saw them as future leaders of the party he opposes.

He is a monster.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
if this was done in US, he was already tied up to some cells in Afghanistan so we could extend the BS war for another 20 years
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
The Greater Threat: Christian Extremism From Timothy McVeigh to Anders Breivik
by Pierre Tristam
Published on Monday, July 25, 2011 by Flagler Live


Timothy McVeigh, meet Anders Behring Breivik.
Christian jihadists: Timothy McVeigh and Anders Behring Breivik.
Those two jihadists—two right-wing reactionaries, two terrorists, two anti-government white supremacists, two Christians—have a lot in common, down to the way the massacres they carried out were first mistaken for the work of Islamists by an American press rich in zealotry of its own. And they have a lot more in common with the fundamentalist politicians and ideologues among us who pretend to have nothing to do with the demons they inspire.

After the Oklahoma City bombing in April 1995, speculation flew on television news stations about Arab terrorists seen in the vicinity of the federal building. The thought that a home-grown, Midwestern Army veteran of the first Gulf war could possibly murder 168 people, including 19 children at a day care center, seemed as foreign as those Islamic lands that were then inspiring so much of bigotry’s latest American mutant. McVeigh turned out to be as all-American as he could possibly be, with extras. His paradoxical worship of the Second Amendment was the faith that fueled his hatred of a government he felt had betrayed American ideals by enabling what he called “Socialist wannabe slaves.” His idealism of a golden-age white America was the Christian translation of al-Qaeda’s idealized caliphate.

It became quickly evident that the bombing in Oslo and the massacre on Utoya Island on Friday had been carried out by Anders Breivik, who surrendered to police 40 minutes after beginning his killing spree on the island. Yet the Wall Street Journal ran an editorial on Saturday putting the blame for the attack on Islamist extremists, because “in jihadist eyes,” the paper said, “it will forever remain guilty of being what it is: a liberal nation committed to freedom of speech and conscience, equality between the sexes, representative democracy and every other freedom that still defines the West."

The paper subsequently amended its editorial to concede that Breivik “was an ethnic Norwegian with no previously known ties to Islamist groups.” But the rest of the piece still framed the attack in the context of Islamist terrorism. It’s a common tactic at the Journal and Fox News—co-owned by Rupert Murdoch’s scandal-riddled News Corp.—where facts are incidental to ideology. It is enough for the Journal to insinuate a connection for its Foxified audience to catch the drift and run with it. Breivik may be Norwegian. But he wouldn’t be doing what he did if it weren’t for the pollution of white, Christian European blood by Muslims and multiculturalists, by leftists, by Socialist wannabe slaves.

McVeigh and Breivik are bloody reminders that Western culture’s original sin—the presumption of supremacy—is alive and well and clenching many a trigger. It’ll be easy in coming days, as it was in 1995, to categorize the demons as exceptions unrepresentative of their societies. Easy, but false. Norway, like much of Europe, like the United States, is in the grips of a disturbing resurgence of right-wing fanaticism. “The success of populist parties appealing to a sense of lost national identity,” The Times reports, “has brought criticism of minorities, immigrants and in particular Muslims out of the beer halls and Internet chat rooms and into mainstream politics. While the parties themselves generally do not condone violence, some experts say a climate of hatred in the political discourse has encouraged violent individuals."

It’s convenient duplicity. The parties don’t explicitly condone violence. But they would have no appeal without explicitly endorsing beliefs of supremacy and projecting the sort of scorn and hatred for those who fall outside the tribe that cannot but lead to violence or the sort of fractured society we’ve become so familiar with. Those “Take Back America” bumper stickers share most of their DNA with the same strain of rejectionist white Europeans who think their culture is being bankrupted by Socialism and immigrants. Those idiotic anti-Sharia laws creeping up in Oklahoma, Arizona and Florida take their cues from the likes of Geert Wilder, the Dutch People’s Party leader who compares the Koran to Hitler’s Mein Kampf. Florida’s own Koran-burning Terry Jones or the Rev. Franklin Graham’s velvety crusade against Islam are Wilder’s American clones.

Timothy McVeigh’s rhetoric may have been more extreme, but it was indistinguishable from the more college-polished and aged rhetoric of anti-government reactionaries now pretending to speak for American ideals under the banner of patriots, tea parties, Fox News’s hacking of the “fair and balanced” parody, or more establishment oriented zealots in Congress. The common denominator is exclusion and heresy: those who supposedly belong to “true” American values, and those who don’t. Al-Qaeda’s loyalty oath is identical: those who belong to “true” Islamic values and those who don’t. Either way, the inclusive, tolerant, broad-minded, and yes, multicultural outlook is under siege by fundamentalism in virtually every part of society as we know it: cultural, political, economic, religious. Timothy McVeigh and Anders Breivik used bombs and rifles. More seasoned zealots use rhetoric and policies. The ongoing march of folly over the national debt is merely one example among many.

“We tend to think of national security narrowly as the risk of a military or terrorist attack,” the columnist Nicholas Kristof writes today. “But national security is about protecting our people and our national strength — and the blunt truth is that the biggest threat to America’s national security this summer doesn’t come from China, Iran or any other foreign power. It comes from budget machinations, and budget maniacs, at home.”

Islamists who may want us harm need only sit back and enjoy the view. They might as well have outsourced the job to their Christian brethren, with plenty of assists from mainstream conservatives. There’s no segregating these demons and maniacs. They’re an integral part of western culture. They’re us.

Gene

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
Norwegian police reduced the number of casualties killed from the shooting rampage by Anders Behring Breivik at the Utoeya island to 68 from 86. The number of casualties from the Oslo bombing the same day was raised to 8, Police Commissioner Oeystein Maeland spoke at press conference today.

That leaves the total number of casualties at 76, down from a previous estimate of 93.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-25/norway-police-lower-number-of-casualties-from-shooting-bomb-attacks-to-76.html

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
Please. This thread is intended to be a dignified place to remember the dead and what happened, and for civil discussion about what happened and may happen. There are lots of political threads where those of you who are so inclined can post to your hearts' content, yell at each other, and on and on. The "Republicans" thread. The fatuous "Clash of Civilizations" thread. Etc etc, with wearying monotony.

Please don't do it here. If you can't be civil, constructive, and on topic, go away.

As for the photos, supposedly of a Norwegian prison. Assume that the photos fairly show some aspects of a typical Norwegian prison, the sort of place that a mass murderer might be jailed. (We don't know that, of course. It could be somewhere where convicted drunk drivers are kept on day parole, before being released.) Even if that's the case, perhaps all it does is illustrate the flaws of other countries' prisons and rehabilitation systems.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
very sad deal. this thread though about sums up some of the issues of humanity. nearly 100 innocents needlessly and ruthlessly killed and some Supertopo posters are too busy arguing, slandering, controlling, etc. rather than getting thier own life.



FACT: IS THE FARMACY CLOSED TODAY OR SUMTHIN?
\

FACT: i think some of this crowd needs sumthin stronger than what the pharmacy has in stock!
reddirt

climber
PNW
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
[quote]Sam Harris, inciteful as always:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/christian-terrorism-and-islamophobia[/quote]

had to scroll thru link to see if you meant inciteful or insightful... think you meant the latter? funny how they're almost antonyms... at least in the context of this thread.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
Dr.F.- "Christian Jihadist"

I just posted the Article, I didn't make it up
But I agree with it

Right Wing Christian Extremists are a threat to America and the world, just like Right Wing Muslim Extremists

Sounds like McVeigh was one of your brethern DR.F.!!
No, he is not my brethern (breathren, sp?)
Lame
PP

Trad climber
SF,CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:59pm PT


There is an interresting article in the Atlantic monthly (Mind on trial) It's about the guy who shot many people from the texas library tower. apparently he had a brain tumor in an area of his brain that affected urge control and he had been to a doctor asking for help from uncontrollable violent urges. He left a note asking for his brain to be studied because he knew something was wrong. He murdered his mother ,his wife and then many people at that texas library.

un-helped mental illness can cause great tradgedies. In the US there are many mentally ill that are placed in solitary confinement in our prisons.

It seems like these things come out of no where; but they don't.



jstan

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
Systems of justice using juries populated by citizens work only if the citizenry respects the need for calm application of reason. Justice by lynch mob is the alternative.

As America wends its way into third world status, the choice as to which of these worlds we want to live in, will have to be made.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
Glenn Beck:

Beck said that the Labour party youth camp on the island, where 68 people were murdered, bore "disturbing" similarities to the Nazi party's notorious juvenile wing.

Beck, a multimillionaire darling of the Tea Party movement, said on his nationally-syndicated radio show: "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Glenn-Beck-compares-Norways-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
Have they no shame???

No.. they don't. They think shame is for the weak and they pride themselves on having no shame. They also believe that the ends justifies the means, so they will use any tool to win. Standing up to them is not easy.

Edit: to be clear, I was speaking about people like Glenn Beck.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
Is there no end to the dirt sick voices of the far right can forge in their disgusting brains and blurt out?
Have they no shame???

the incident in Norway is not a left-wing, right wing deal. anyone portraying it as such is as whacked out as the guilty whacked out SOB who killed innocents.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:00pm PT

From the above link

Here is Breivik, writing in his 1,500-page manifesto, titled “2083 — A European Declaration of Independence”:


We, the European Revolutionary Conservatives, know very well that it will take many years, even decades before we successfully manage to consolidate to a degree where we can seize political and military power in the first Western European country. In the US, the Tea party movement is one of the first physical, political manifestations which indicate that there is a great storm coming.

Another tangential connection to the tea party: In 2010, Tim Phillips, president of Americans for Prosperity, the Koch brothers-funded tea-party astroturf group, spoke at a conclave of the Progress Party, the right-wing Norwegian political party in which Breivik claims membership.



Not a right wing problem? I beg to differ


What about Jesus Camp, isn't that were they brainwashed kids to praise Geroge Bush and do mock battles with liberals, Just like Glenn Beck's Nazi Camps
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
And shouldn't we speak out against what's going on
To stop it before its too late, unlike what Nazi Germany did

Our media has declined to be responsible,
we must hold it to be responsible
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
Yep Dr. F, it's nice to think that both sides are equally to blame, but that usually isn't true.

Anyway, this is so sad.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
Just for the record, Glen beck is NOT a Christian.

That's not what Beck says.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
What a bunch of stupid comments in this thread. If you all want to bash each other, bash religion, discuss f*ckheads like Glenn Beck, whatever, you should go do it in one of the polidiot threads.


Can we start a new thread for expressing condolences to Norway? I'd support nuking this thread.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
I quite agree with Lolli - except I may be much angrier than her. It is abundantly clear that the murderer was a right-wing, nihilist, racist, inspired by but without known direct association with such groups and individuals in other countries, including in the USA. He also claims to be a "Christian", as right-wingers elsewhere often do. The details to be sorted out, but the picture is clear. No pretending otherwise. He will be dealt with in the context of Norwegian society, culture and justice.

It's easy to understand how Erik reacted as he did to what some have posted here.

Addressing the congregation at Oslo cathedral, Jens Stoltenberg, Norway's prime minister, rejected the idea that Norway will become, like Britain and America, a more restricted and frightened society. "I am proud to live in a country that has managed to stand firm," he said. "I am impressed over how much dignity, care and strength we have. We are a small country but we are a proud people. We are still shaken, but we will never give up our values. Our answer is more democracy and openness, never naivete."
If only those here could speak with similar wisdom and forebearance, and resist importing their personal beliefs and behaviours into the discussion. I expect no better of Fattrad, Dr. F, skipt and jghedge, but some others know better. Don't let those fools bait you.

There have been no significant calls in Norway for restoration of capital punishment. There is embarrassment that the attack was by a native Norwegian, although whether the police had or should have had any foreknowledge of Breivik and his plans is unknown. It seems likely that there will be a parliamentary (Storting) enquiry into what happened, and right-wing extremism.

As for Glenn Beck - well, if he flew to Norway, he would probably be arrested on arrival in Oslo.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 25, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
Well I hate to tell you this guys but the US no longer has the highest standard of living in the world.
For one thing dozens of countries educate their children better.

We are well on our way to third world status, and when our currency is worthless lets see what happens to our hollow empire.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
is the hatefilled violent-loving xenophobic and misanthropic filth that the right winger extremists spew out into the world.

Lolli I took the liberty of making a small edit...

A lot of unbridled hate and anger hear. Understandably.

Please though, don't equate a sane person who perhaps has political or social views to the right of yours with a mass murdering extremist monster.

Perhaps one thing we can all agree on is that extremism generally does not work out well, especially when mixed with insanity.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 25, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
Not a right wing/left wing deal, huh? Forget it. No way there'll be an acceptance of changing this to a lone lunatic, acting on his own.
Had it been a muslim fundamentalist instead of a right wing fundamentalist, you'd sure be fast to blame entire religions.

read what ksolem said.....

if it were a muslim there is no way i would denounce an entire religion which is why you should not denounce right wingers....pathetic.

if he were black would you then denounce all blacks?

this thread should be nuked, while there are some good things on here it is overshadowed by emotional people wishing to cram their views of the world down others...isnt that what the whackjob was all about? think about it.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 25, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
Breivik had the luxury of bountiful time to hunt down and execute his victims.

This also appears to be an abject failure of Norway's law enforcement and security forces.

The response time between receiving notification of the assault on Utoeya and arrival of law enforcement on the scene was one hour (according to current news sources). Norway is a small country and Utoeya is not a great distance from the capitol.

I understand the Oslo bomb created a successful diversion, nonetheless when the general citizenry is disarmed by law, by default it makes them wholly dependent upon the government for their security. Practically, the government then assumes responsibility for the safety of the citizens and yet governments routinely disavow this defacto 'responsibility'.

For law enforcement to take an hour to arrive on the scene of a mass massacre of children is unacceptable and bewildering. Couldn't find a boat, couldn't get a helicopter, and couldn't hail a taxi doesn't cut it. There's no good excuse for this. The LEO response appears amateurish and poorly planned while Breivik's attack appears highly planned and disciplined.

A single armed citizen on the scene may have been able to put a swifter conclusion to this tragedy.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
is the hatefilled violent-loving xenophobic and misanthropic filth that the right winger extremists spew out into the world.

I beg to differ. It's a continuum of hate and American conservatives have employed it reliably and extensively over the past fifty years. Campaigns against blacks, homosexuals, and latinos by way of 'immigration' - all carefully worded and 'coded' - have been the mainstay strategy of all recent national republican campaigns and remain so today. Current republican campaign strategies are all based upon on and designed to stir indignation and rage against 'them'. It is the very essence of hate, bigotry, and racism regardless of how carefully crafted.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
Vi Har Valgt å Besvare Grusomhet med Nærhet
"We Have Chosen to Reply to Cruelness with Nearness/Neighbourliness"

The headline today in Norway's main newspaper, and the opening line of the crown prince's speech today. About 150,000 attended the minute of silence in downtown Oslo today, in person - about 1/4 of the population of the area. Crown Prince Håkon Magnus and Princess Martha Louise attended.

http://www.aftenposten.no/

There are apparently books of condolence at all Norwegian embassies and consulates world-wide, which are open to the public for several hours each day. I can't find anything more on the internet, apart from the "Light a Candle" site on FaceBook - there must be something.

lovegasoline: Try to look at what happened from the perspective of Norway and Norwegians, not that of the US. I appreciate that it may be difficult, but it's a very different context. Might have beens and speculation are of little help. FYI, the rate of long gun ownership in Norway is quite high, and given compulsory military service, many are trained in their use. Whether the police or military might have gotten to Utøya earlier will come out in the judicial enquiry. There is no chance of Norway allowing easy access to handguns, and given that its overall rate of violent crime is a fraction of that of the US, it's obvious why.

You don't want to know Norway's reaction to Fox News' coverage of the events.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
I do not want to get drawn into a political debate, nonetheless, despite the great strides the USA has made in civil rights in the past half century we have by no means eradicated those deep rooted hatreds. The haters have learned from their mistakes and have gone underground. It is covert instead of overt. Ask any African American if the hatred is gone. Ask any Mexican. Etc., etc.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
"That's not what Jeff Beck says"

Tha Dood - you must mean Glenn Beck! Jeff Beck woulda said "I'm goin' down"


there was a choice quote out of someones link a while back:

"Fanaticism eats its own children"


ThaDood, you seem to be pretty sensitive to the perception of intolerance and bigotry being associated with christian evangelism / fundamentalism. don't you think its is true that large segments of organized christianity has become politicized and co-opted for the purpose of demonizing anybody but themselves? I think you're right to suggest that these people are not "real" christians but they are over powering and co-opting the real meaning of christ for nefarious purposes. Where is the outrage and back lash from the "real" christians?
QITNL

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
Just in case I'm missing something here, Lolli, you are in Norway, right? Correct me if I am mistaken. Anyone else?

As far as I'm concerned, anyone in Norway or with real connections to that country can say anything they want. I'm happy to hear their first-hand reports. You're welcome to run the gamut of emotion - grief, anger, fear - as you work it out.

The rest of the world of the world paid a significant respect to us yanks a decade ago when our tragedy struck. At the time, I greatly appreciated it. Today, from this distance, I choose to issue no judgement, but only wish to express my condolences and support.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
What a crock of bullsh#t. Bush and McCain put forward honest immigration legislation. The evil one

No, it's not and you steadily push hate-based threads here on ST day in, day out. You should reconsider as it's tracts such as yours that this guy fed on.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
The Norwegian government website is at: http://www.regjeringen.no/en.html

It includes things like the address yesterday by Prime Minister Stoltenberg: http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/smk/Whats-new/Speeches-and-articles/statsministeren/statsminister_jens_stoltenberg/2011/address-by-prime-minister-in-oslo-cathed.html?id=651789

The Norwegian government's website in the USA is at http://www.norway.org/ Also http://www.norway.org/News_and_events/top-stories/Signing-of-Book-of-Condolences/ The embassy and consulates are in Washington, D.C., New York City, Houston, and San Francisco. There is an on-line condolences thingie on the Aftenposten website.

King Harald's speech: http://www.kongehuset.no/c27262/nyhet/vis.html?tid=92959

(His grandfather was King Haakon VII, who led Norway through World War II. The royal family is immensely popular.)

[All sites helpfully in English also.]

Jeff, Joseph: Please take it somewhere else.

QITNL: I'm about 1/2 Norwegian by ancestry, and have spent some time there in school, climbing, visiting cousins and friends, and teaching climbing. Probably over a half year total. I also speak Norwegian, though not fluently.
QITNL

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Thanks for the clarification, Lolli, I had a feeling you somewhere were in those parts. It's probably like watching those planes smash into the towers from the Jersey side of the Hudson, close enough to feel the blast. Too close, in fact. I've never been to Norway but did a couple of gigs in Sweden. I enjoyed the country and the people very much. Best luck.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
King Harald's speech, from Saturday:

Norway has been struck by a national tragedy. The kind of calamity that we hoped would never happen here has somehow taken place.

At Sundvolden today we met young people and their families who shared with us their gruesome stories. They have lived through a day that is beyond all comprehension. Our thoughts and deepest sympathy go out to all of those afflicted by the events in Oslo and on Utøya.

The police, rescue workers, health personnel and volunteers have worked tirelessly and heroically to save lives, in some cases at risk to their own. All of us are affected by the catastrophe that has swept over us, and we watch in disbelief as the death toll continues to rise.

In the midst of all the anguish and chaos, the Prime Minister, the Government and the ministries have responded to the situation with exceptional fortitude and resolve.

Both as individuals and as a nation it will take us a long time to digest and work our way through what we have witnessed, our grief and our feelings. We will need each other in this process. Throughout the length and breadth of our country, there are people who have lost someone they loved. Many of our children and young people are afraid today. We must make every effort to reassure them. Many will want to be together, while others will need space for quiet reflection. It is comforting that the country’s churches are open for anyone who wishes to light a candle and seeks a place to be. It is also helpful that the local authorities and volunteer organisations are providing arenas for those who feel a need to be with others.

There is still much we do not know about the background for yesterday’s atrocities, and it is essential that we let the responsible authorities continue their work to bring clarity to the situation. Some things we do know, however: the acts in Oslo and on Utøya are an attack on the Norwegian society that we hold so dear. And they represent an assault upon the very heart of Norwegian democracy.

It is when our nation is put to the test that the true strength, solidarity and courage of the Norwegian people come to the fore. We stand united behind our values.

I firmly believe that freedom is stronger than fear.

I firmly believe in an open Norwegian democracy and society.

I firmly believe that we will uphold our ability to live freely and securely in our own country.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
MH, my mind always goes to the issue of self defense when a massacre takes place and likely we hold differing views on the topic.
Out of respect for refocusing this thread, I’ll put it to rest here as there’s more apt places to discuss EU and Norwegian firearm policies and/or deficits of Norway’s law enforcement than an American climbing forum.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
lovegas is a class act compared to some on here.

this incident as riley said in a different thread has changed the psyche in norway. i am hopeful that they will do better than we have since 911...
zeta

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
I finally heard from my Norwegian friend who works in a gov't building downtown. She's ok--thankfully!--but I thought it was interesting what she wrote me:

"I was out of town when the bomb went off. It went off close to where I work and walk everyday, but our office is ok. As far as I know my coworkers are ok. I am not totally informed about people in the Ministries. It is a tragedy for our country and Oslo. It is a before and after and it will change us. But I think to the better. Probably we will be even more open than before. Still, security will be even more important. Our city has changed and I wonder how it will be to get back"

It's interesting that she wrote that life will be more 'open' even as they add much more security.. I'm sure it will radically change life there for Norwegians. It's a very sad tragedy...
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/eirik-bergesen/norway-is-passing-the-tes_b_908008.html?ref=fb&src=sp
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
I'm sure it will radically change life there for Norwegians.

I doubt that. Norwegians have been 'being Norwegian' for a very long time. One whack job is not going to unbutton a civilization. Norway will move through this strong and proud. You'll see.

DMT
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
In other news, tens of thousands of are dying of starvation in Somalia.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/somalis-flee-famine-along-roads-of-death/2011/07/25/gIQApW0VZI_story.html

Tragedy in Africa seems to go unnoticed.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
I beg to differ. It's a continuum of hate and American conservatives have employed it reliably and extensively over the past fifty years. Campaigns against blacks, homosexuals, and latinos by way of 'immigration' - all carefully worded and 'coded' - have been the mainstay strategy of all recent national republican campaigns and remain so today. Current republican campaign strategies are all based upon on and designed to stir indignation and rage against 'them'. It is the very essence of hate, bigotry, and racism regardless of how carefully crafted.

You can beg to differ all you want. But if you really want to go back 50 years you will have to find an explanation for Democrat party resistance to integration in the south. George Wallace was a candidate for the Democrat nomination for president I think in was 1964?

All I am saying is that on either side of the political or social spectrum one finds dangerous extremists. You are bordering yourself here by painting with a broad brush. "A continuum of hate... employed effectively by American conservatives..." I don't think you know what an American Conservative is. Of course neither do any of the politicians, so those of us who "get it" are almost without a voice.

Cheers to you. I am very sad about the events in Norway where my father was born in Solem.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:53pm PT
The Bombs in Afghanistan Have Landed in Norway

by Jesse McLaren
Published on Monday, July 25, 2011 by Rabble.ca
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/07/25-6


A decade of Islamophobia to justify the war in Afghanistan is now spreading violence to the West. Right-wing Islamophobe Anders Behring Breivik has killed 91 people in Norway, through the explosion of a bomb near the Prime Minister's building and a shooting spree in a youth camp organized by the Workers’ Youth League.

The initial response by international media was to blame Muslims. But when the alleged perpetrator turned out to be a blond-hair, blue-eyed Norwegian Christian nationalist, some are now denying there’s any context whatsoever for the killing. As a Norwegian official said, "It seems it's not Islamic-terror related. This seems like a madman's work."

But Breiviks was not driven by "madness," he was driven by right-wing Islamophobic politics. From 1997 to 2007 he was a member of the xenophobic "Progress Party." Since that time police chief Sveinung Sponheim describe his internet postings as having “some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views”, and others have pointed out his an admirer of prominent anti-Muslim individuals and organizations like Geert Wilders and the English Defense League.

Islamophobia

Islamophobia existed well before the terror attacks of 9/11. After the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995 (orchestrated by Gulf War veteran and right-wing extremist Timothy McVeigh), the media blamed Muslims, and the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee documented death threats against Muslims and vandalism of mosques. But for the past decade there has been a surge in Islamophobia to scapegoat populations at home and justify wars abroad. The Western countries with Islamophobic policies overlaps with those occupying Afghanistan: from the US (which incarcerated Muslims without trial in Guantanamo Bay), to Canada (which has rounded up Muslim men and pressured them to admit to terrorism, while Muslim Canadians have been abandoned abroad, and media have amplified fringe-group campaigns against prayer spaces), to France (which is banning girls who wear hijab from school, and women who wear niqab from public space), to Norway.

The website Islamophobia-watch has documented anti-Muslim racism around the world, which in Norway includes:
•2006: the Directorate for Primary and Secondary Education of Norway banned girls and women wearing niqab form school
•2007: anti-immigration politicians in Bergen threatened to use pigs feet to chase praying Muslims out of a public square.
•2009: the Norwegian government tried to ban female police officers from wearing the hijab
•April 2011: attempts were made to set up a Norwegian Defense League -- modeled on the English Defense League--with a demonstration was called against the “Islamic occupation of Noway”. While only 10-15 Islamophobes turned up, up to 1000 people attended a counter-demonstration
•May 2011: a school in Bergen had to be evacuated when a national newspaper received a message threatening “A massacre at Gimle school Bergen. Everyone that stands in the way will die, especially Muslims.”

But police have refused to see Islamophobia as a threat. “It’s surprising, because the Norwegian police have long said that the right wing extremist community was under control,” said Hegghammer, of the Norwegian Defense Research Establishment.

Fight poverty, racism and militarism

As Martin Luther King famously said:

“The bombs in Vietnam explode at home. They destroy the hopes and possibilities for a decent America. If we reversed investments and gave the armed forces the anti-poverty budget, the generals could be forgiven if they walked off the battlefield in disgust. Poverty, urban problems and social progress generally are ignored when the guns of war become a national obsession.”

The horrific crimes of Anders Behring Breivik have exposed the consequences of war and Islamophobia, which are intensifying in the economic crisis. To counter this we must follow the words of King: "Our only hope today lies in our ability to recapture the revolutionary spirit and go into a sometimes hostile world declaring eternal hostility to poverty, racism, and militarism."


Aren't Fatty and Bluey part of Islamophobia terrorist group
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
George Wallace was a candidate for the Democrat nomination
Ksolem

Come on, he could have been called a Democrat at the time

But by all standards he was a Right Wing Extremist racist with an Authoritarian bent on creating Fear

Just like Today's Right Wing Islamophobe Republicans
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
I don't think you know what an American Conservative is. Of course neither do any of the politicians, so those of us who "get it" are almost without a voice.

Cheers to you. I am very sad about the events in Norway where my father was born in Solem.


As Always, Mr. Solem speaks the rational truth.

I am not a "right-winger". I'm a conservative, with a streak of nationalistic pride that can be construed as similar to the douche-bag. But I would never condone those kind of actions. The killing of innocents is never right. It is murder, and wrong.

Don't confuse conservatives like myself with whack-jobs like this dude. And I'm pretty far right-wing. But this dude was to the right of me...

I think he was just crazy. His actions made no logical sense to his 'cause'. He wanted to protect his national pride by killing liberal countrymen? That leads to fascism. A one party state.

Fascism is not liberating, but condemning your state to failure. He hated Muzzies and killed liberally indoctrinated Norwegian kids. What an as#@&%e.

He should be put down like a biting dog. He will continue to spew his hate.

I hate to say it, but after lengthy interrogations and water-boardings...kill him.

He will spread his hate otherwise.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
Bluey
I will let your post enrage as is

You my friend, are a right winger neo-con

Water board him ?
You are also a sick puppy

I disagree with you completely
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
Why We Were Attacked in Norway

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jalees-rehman/why-we-were-attacked-in-n_b_907567.html

Breivik's comments are quite characteristic of the growing far-right political movements in Europe, therefore it is quite possible that the motives for his terrorist acts may have been in part influenced by this right-wing extremist ideology. Breivik's dislike for left-wing politicians may also explain why he chose a youth camp of the social democratic Labor Party as a target for his attack. The tragic irony is that in many ways, right-wing extremists in Europe who promote a culture of hatred against mostly Muslim immigrants are not too dissimilar from Muslim right wing extremists, who in turn try to promote a culture of hatred against "unbelievers." Both groups strongly resist the progressive-liberal values that are represented by the center-left political parties, both groups want to replace multiculturalism and tolerance of the "other" with a more homogeneous and traditional society, and members of both groups have shown that they are willing to use violent means to achieve their goals.

One of the biggest shocks to all of us was that these attacks occurred in Norway, which is characterized by an open and peaceful society. However, if one looks at it from the perspective of religious or political right-wing extremists, Norway is exactly the kind of country that would offend such extremists. The fact that the society in Norway is tolerant, peaceful, promotes progressive-liberal values, provides strong welfare support, while maintaining a high level of quality of life must be a thorn in the flesh of right-wing extremists. This is why the response to these horrifying events has to be cautious. When I heard the Norwegian Prime Minister Stoltenberg respond to the attacks by saying "You will not destroy us, you will not destroy our democracy and our idea for a better world," I felt a great sense of relief and some pride in being a progressive-liberal European. If the ultimate goal of right-wing extremists is to undermine our core values and try to force our hand by giving up the tolerant and open societies we have built in Europe, we cannot let them win.

It just sounds all to familiar to the American Right Wing Fox News listener type person that could be mentally unstable.
Why do we have to set them off with the Poison that the right wing media are allowed to get away with
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
You my friend, are a right winger neo-con

Wrong! Examine my ideologies further. I'm more of a conservative, Catholic, nationalist. Very similar to douche-bag murderer, but far from a Neo-con. Look to Fatty for that.

Water board him ?
You are also a sick puppy

I disagree with you completely


Hey, dipsh#t, do you want to stop another similar attack? He said there were 2 other cells similar to his.

You want to go 'easy' on this lunatic and risk another attack? Get the car battery out and battery cables.

These people need to be stopped. Whatever it takes. Like I said, this dude should face death penaly after we extract intel from him.

You say that's inhumane, I say having another 80 kids killed in cold blood is inhumane.

Stop it!
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
Tell us more about how we should deal with him

You seem to know all the good methods of dealing with people in humane ways

By all means, Keep digging...

IMO, prison is good enough for any criminal or right wing terrorist
If he said there are 2 other right wing hate group cells like his, we can get the info out w/out torture, as always
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
Why prison? why should he live when so many others have died?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
Because that is the law of their land. If they surrender the law in their times of greatest need then the law meant nothing to begin with.

DMT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
Goatboy at least had something useful to add, which is that thousands of children around the world die unnoticed every day, from disease, hunger, politics and violence. Generally those with other than white (pink) skins. All the more poignant in that the UN recently declared that famine once again stalks the Horn of Africa, and the Norwegian government immediately committed millions of dollars to famine relief. (The total is around $50 million, if I read it rightly.) And there is another famine in North Korea, due to the totalitarian regime's incompetence.

The arraignment of the murderer today was held in camera, due to security concerns, and he will be held for eight weeks before the next hearing. For the first four, he will be in solitary, having only contact with his lawyer. The police continue to investigate whether there were accomplices, and links to other terrorists. The murderer claims such things.

Credit: internet
Credit: internet

(Except when quoting another source, I refuse to identify the murderer by name.)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:08am PT
Stories and photos of the young people who died at Utøya.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/norways-future-leaders-overflowed-with-idealism-to-make-a-better-world/article2109593/

Not for the faint of heart.

The death toll is now 68 there, 8 in Olso, for 76 total. There are still many missing. The dead include a 51 year old off-duty police officer who got his ten year old son to safety, then confronted the murderer. Trond Berntsen was the step-brother of Norway's crown princess. Two of the dead in Olso were members of the Storting (parliament).
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:46am PT
Because that is the law of their land

It wasn't the law when Vidkun Quisling was put to death by order of the Norwegian Supreme Court (sentence pronounced by chief justice Erik Solem.)

Yes I have studied the controversy about that. Sometimes closure is a good thing. Death awaits each of us. Some beg for it...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:22am PT
Kris, any relation? There seems to be a tiny place named Solem, near Namsos. My family's from near Tretten, though of course there are cousins all over.

Norway's post-war treatment of German war criminals and of collaborators, remains a subject of debate. It abolished capital punishment before the war. The government in exile, which could legitimately claim to be the de jure but not de facto government, passed decrees in 1941-42 that provided penalties for treason during the war, including reinstatement of capital punishment for high treason. Somewhat hypothetical then, but not after liberation in May 1945.

About 28,750 were arrested for crimes during the war, and very public trials held. In the end, 25 of the 30 Norwegians convicted of treason were executed by firing squad. Another 12 Germans were executed for war crimes by Norway, and three other Germans by the Allies. (Five Germans were executed in Poland for war crimes against Polish prisoners of war in Norway.) The court was within its powers to pass such sentences, but there was vocal public debate about whether Norway should have the death penalty at all. There was also the legal issue that the newly-elected Storting had not yet met to ratify the acts of the wartime government in exile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_purge_in_Norway_after_World_War_II

Norway's record during the war, and behaviour after the war, are still a matter of some debate. The subject recently resurfaced with the movie Max Manus, about a saboteur-hero who specialized in blowing up German ships. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Manus); He led a charmed life, although many of his comrades died, and many more civilians were killed by the Germans in retaliation. Norway suffered greatly in the war, although compared with Poland, Yugoslavia, Belarus or the Jews of Europe, relatively few died. The north was devastated during the German withdrawal of 1944 - 45.

One embarrassment is that Norwegian women who married or had babies by German soldiers were often mistreated after the war, sometimes persecuted. Although in many cases it was simply young people doing what they do. One of them was the mother of Anni-Frid Lyngstad, later a lead singer of ABBA. She was forced to emigrate to Sweden in 1946. The European Court of Human Rights later ruled in their favour.

(ABBA has refused to allow its songs to be played at meetings and rallies of right-wing parties.)
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:50am PT
Any relation? I am told so, an uncle of my father. The resemblance is siginificant.

Yes Solem is near Namsos, north of Trondhiem. I would like to visit there. My cousin did and she came back with beautiful pictures and stories.

This thing makes me very sad. Nothing else to say.

Pate

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:01am PT
bluering, you're being an ignorant overall wearing 3rd grade drop out buck toothed cousin f*#king as#@&%e again.

someone should waterboard your son, or wife, then tell us how much you're still into it.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:03am PT
Thinking of the families and the country of Norway... it's heartbreaking...

music...no words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mty_PAkcOEc
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:13am PT
Thanks, Nita.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:42am PT
No matter how newt gingrich, sarah palin, bloody glenn beck or for that matter any right winger dances around the subject, I think it is obvious that the xenophobic, nationalistic and survival of the fittest values that they proudly promote as moral and right do indeed breed such sentiment as drove this guy to kill. Of course the sentiment is seldom acted upon, but the argument that there is no direct link between the rogue actor and the sentiment is specious at best. There is nothing new here and there is much evidence throughout history to support this link. No matter what the supposed differences exist in politics, any tribe that steeps itself in authoritarian dogma, from stalinist Russia to the Taliban to the current freaky Republican cult in the USA is a breeding ground for extremist flakes intend on creating and pursuing enemies. The right will say the left is just as guilty but this is not true. If Maoist China was ever"leftist" it sure as hell didn't stay that way. It established itself as an authoritarian state to rival Nazi Germany. The economic system isn't really the issue. It is the politics of power and subjugation of the citizenry that creates the authoritarian regime.

Of course this isn't the right wingers intent. They want everyone just to get along just like everyone else - just on their terms and anyone who thinks otherwise can expect the wrath of god.



http://thetyee.ca/Life/2011/07/26/NorwayNightmare/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
Last Wednesday, Texas executed a man by lethal injection. The man, Mark Stroman, murdered two men in late 2001, and seriously injured a third. All three worked at convenience stores. Stroman was a white supremacist, and was enraged by the terrorist attacks of September 2001. He murdered Vasudev Patel, from India, and Waqar Hasan,a Pakistani immigrant. The third man, Rais Bhuiyan from Bangladesh, was shot in the face and lost an eye. Stroman thought that they were all Arabs and Muslims - none were Arab, and only two of them were Muslims.

You may ask why I mention this. The reason is that the survivor, Rais Bhuiyan, petitioned to have the execution stopped, saying that "Killing him is not the solution. He's learning from his mistake. If he's given a chance, he's able to reach out to others and spread that message to others." Bhuiyan said his religious beliefs as a Muslim required him to forgive the man.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/21/texas-executes-911-revenge-killer

In a similar vein, the sons of Mohandas Gandhi called for the death sentences of the conspirators who murdered their father to be commuted, as did his friend Jawaharlal Nehru, although to no avail.

There are other ways to react to violence and hatred than with more of the same. Certainly Norway is a fortunate country, perhaps better able to live its principles than most. It is materially wealthy, fairly homogenous, has strong values, and is a little protected from the world, by geography if nothing else. It would be all to easy after what has happened for it to strike out blindly. It would solve nothing, and no one would learn anything.

Yes, there are legitimate questions about whether the Norwegian police should have been more alert to terrorist threats, whether generally, from right-wing extremists, or otherwise. And in particular whether they knew of should have known of the threat from the murderer, and whether they could have reacted more effectively to the news of shootings at Utøya. That should come out in the eventual enquiry, which is likely to be thorough, and not tainted by politics. And perhaps there is a need for a constructive public debate there about immigration, values, and assimilation. Not simple subjects.

Could have, would have, should have speculation doesn't add to the discussion. Norway, and indeed most liberal democracies around the world, have rejected liberal gun laws. (Their police mostly aren't armed.) Setting aside the rhetoric, their view is that increased gun ownership destabilizes society, and leads to greater violence. Whichever is the chicken and whichever the egg, guns (especially handguns) and increased violence go together. Also, that ownership of handguns doesn't reduce crime, or allow the public to protect itself.

Imposing US beliefs and ideology on that discussion isn't productive, both due to it being hypothetical, and because Norway is different. It can be difficult to understand the perspectives of others, but try.

In the case of the massacre, would you have armed children and teenagers against an unimaginable threat, and would that have helped?

It is surprising that the murderer didn't kill himself, but I guess he was hoping to have a pulpit from which to preach hatred. Doesn't look like it will happen. It is also somewhat surprising that he wasn't killed by the police, given how heavily armed he was, that a special tactics group was sent, and that it would have been all too easy to dispense rough 'justice'. Perhaps he didn't resist?
raymond phule

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:58pm PT

It is surprising that the murderer didn't kill himself, but I guess he was hoping to have a pulpit from which to preach hatred. Doesn't look like it will happen. It is also somewhat surprising that he wasn't killed by the police, given how heavily armed he was, that a special tactics group was sent, and that it would have been all too easy to dispense rough 'justice'. Perhaps he didn't resist?

He didn't resist being captured.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
Unnskyld if this has been discussed but I find it beyond my comprehension that
the police said it would have taken them longer to "requisition" a chopper than
to drive to Utøya. I know the crime rate is lower than low there but there
are emergencies other than crime that require a speedy response, especially
if the police have to requisition a chopper. That is living with one's
head in the sand.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
Lock him up for good.
Give him no voice.
Feed him with a stick.









Anders,
people actually still play Abba at "meetings"??
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
I like what Piton says. I wish him no contact with others so he'll never have a voice. A number for a name and... May he never have a grave stone, anything that will allow his name to exist, ever.

Anastasia
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
No matter how newt gingrich, sarah palin, bloody glenn beck or for that matter any right winger dances around the subject, I think it is obvious that the xenophobic, nationalistic and survival of the fittest values that they proudly promote as moral and right do indeed breed such sentiment as drove this guy to kill.

I don't think its obvious at all. How about connecting the dots for me... from Newt to the dude in Norway.

No short cuts. I call BULLSH#T.

DMT
dirtbag

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
I'm not going to suggest a link with those folks listed above, Dingus.

However, there is evidence that he was a fan of prominent American Islamophobes, notably blogger Pamela Geller (who does have some influence in American conservative circles):

http://www.slate.com/id/2299967/

Is Geller to blame? 99% no, but at the same time we cannot pretend that such rantings by her, and others, including presidential candidate Herman Cain, aren't at the very least a bit reckless.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
I don't think its obvious at all. How about connecting the dots for me... from Newt to the dude in Norway.

I do so love your innocently disingenuous side...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:52pm PT
DMT - google Authoritarian personality.

Tell me something - you see no parallels between christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism? Republicans and the Taliban?

By the way, i don't have a particular hate on for authoritarianism. Its a great way to run certain businesses, like a war for instance. However running a civilized society that way is for deviant nightmares who have no care for anybody but thier own tribe, whatever that may be.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
According to the dude skipt, and i'd say he has a point, the killer is not a christian despite what he claims. And obama... do you think he has proven himself to be no christian?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
DMT - I just looked up their theme song, or maybe its their national anthem once they get their caliphate or shining city on the hil established.


From the words of Frank Zappa, social and political critic extraordinaire:


DUMB ALL OVER (A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE)

Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now our behaviour is dumb
And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race or the other whatever from the face of the planet altogether
They call it "The Earth" which is a dumb kinda name but they named it right 'cause we behave the same
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over, yes we are, dumb all over, near and far, dumb all over, black 'n white, people, we is not wrapped tight
And nerds on the left, nerds on the right
Religious fanatics on the air every night, sayin' the bible tells the story and makes the details sound real gory about what to do if the geeks over there don't believe in the book we got over here
You can't run a race without no feet
And pretty soon there won't be no street for dummies to jog on or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics can make it be all gone
I mean it won't blow up and disappear, it'll just look ugly for a thousand years
You can't run a country by a book of religion
Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgeon of foolish rules of ancient date, designed to make you all feel great while you fold, spindle and mutilate those unbelievers from a neighbouring state
To arms, to arms
Hooray! That's great, two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate they ship the parts to mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get down)
Not his, not hers but what the hey
The good book says, "It's gotta be that way"
But their book says, "Revenge the crusades"
With whips 'n chains and hand grenades
Two arms, two arms
Have another and another
Our Cod says, "There ain't no other"
Our Cod says, "It's all ok"
Our god says "This is the way"
It says in the book, "Burn and destroy"
And repent and redeem and revenge and deploy and rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'Cause they don't go for what's in the book and that makes 'em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up and stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb to poof them out of existence while leaving their real estate just where we need it to use again for temples in which to praise our god, 'cause he can really take care of business
And when his humble TV servant with humble white hair and humble glasses and a nice brown suit and maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls, tells us our god says it's ok to do this stuff, then we gotta do it
'Cause if we don't do it we ain't "Gwine up to hebbin"
Depending on which book you're using at the time
Can't use theirs, it don't work, it's all lies, gotta use mine
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night, everyday
Hey, we can't really be dumb if we're just following god's orders
Well let's get serious, god knows what he's doin'
He wrote this book here and the book says, "He made us all to be just like him"
So, if we're dumb, then god is dumb and maybe even a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
DMT - google Authoritarian personality.

Tell me something - you see no parallels between christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism? Republicans and the Taliban?

What's the Islamic Fundamentalism and the Taliban have to do with Newt and the dude in Norway? I am not seeing the connection.

I see any sort of entrenched fundamentalism as the enemy of free breathing peoples and I don't care from what political spectrum such fundamentalism arises, left, right, center, whatever.

I see plenty of fundamentalism from the American left, plays out on this board daily.

DMT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
Credit: Aftenposten
Yesterday's memorial in Oslo. The street shown is Karl Johan, which is the main street leading from the central station, past the Storting (parliament) to the royal palace. The number of people present yesterday was as great or greater than any previous occasion, which is saying a lot - Karl Johan is the location of the annual national day festivities on May 17th, and also saw the Liberation Day parade on June 7th, 1945.

Credit: Aftenposten
The condolences written in a book at the embassy in Washington, by a well-known American who writes left-handed. Perhaps he saw the post about it yesterday.

There will apparently be a national memorial early next week, followed by funerals for all those who died.

The murderer's motives may never be entirely clear, even to him. It seems safe to say that he drew inspiration from right-wing, xenophobic, racist, and "Christian" sources - often combined. Some of them in the US. Whether he had any real links with any of them, or accomplices, remains to be seen. Despite what our mothers told us, names and words can hurt others, sometimes badly. If his motives were in part based on the inflammatory and poisonous rhetoric of others, they share some of the blame. Freedom of speech is good, but doesn't extend to inciting others to hatred and violence, overtly or implicitly.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
I see any sort of entrenched fundamentalism as the enemy of free breathing peoples

Then you do see my point. My contention is with application and percieved entitlement to power. I don't give a flying f*#k what anybody would like to believe in spiritually or otherwise, so long as one confines it to themselves. These f*#kwads see themselves as entitled to apply their code of ethics on the rest of us, regardless of democratic process, based on their unwavering belief in their righteousness.

I can see how some may think i'm making a bit of a stretch of logic in the link to the republicans, but i suggest it it a matter of degree not sentiment. Fundamentally, all these guys believe its their way or the highway. Left or right truly has nothing to do with it. It has to do with unwavering loyalty to ideology and the righteous insistence on their typically god given right to apply it. That is precisely why democracy and all the necessary factors required to support it, is of vital importance to a civil society.

Humility is absent.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
Another new low from Glen Beck. This idiot is making sure the the rest of the world knows how rediculous the far right is in the US. Or maybe the far right has disowned him and his nazi fetish already too.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895169/ns/world_news-europe/

The people of Norway need our support you boneheads.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 26, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
to a civil society.

There's the rub. Comes down to cooperative vs. predatory. Some would mold us all into predators - take what you can when you can, let the other predators feed themselves.

Others would mold us all communist pink and demand everything be done for the good of the whole, regardless of individual desires.

I say fundamentalism in either aspect is not good and leads directly to conflict and war. Its not a republican thing, sorry I don't buy it.

But cheers anyway
DMT
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
I agree with you but i would say that the repugs are riding on that carpet
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
There is now at least one FaceBook page with a collection of information and photos of the tragedy and its aftermath, and where people express their sympathies.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Norway-My-most-sincere-condolences-to-the-people-of-Norway/259681244045283?ref=ts&sk=wall

The person originating and moderating is Antonio Correia, who appears to live in Britain.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
American Republican party = the party of fundamentalists...Bachman, Palin, evangelicals, Christian right voting block, KKK rejects who live in the South and to many other wackos to list....

No it's not. And you're using this as a political tool, dude. I'm a right-winger.

You're making ridiculous affiliations.

Kinda like me saying all people who like clean air are ELF supporters and need to be watched. Or Ted Kazinski. Or the SDS or Weather Underground.

Think, people. This guy was psychotic and is a murderer. Bachman, Palin, and even the idiots in the Westboro Church do not condone killing innocents. Don't try to draw ridiculous parallels and say it's a right-wing thing. It's an extremist thing. Kinda like Islam. Only a somewhat small minority are radical enough to kill civis for their cause. Not the whole religion.

Don't castigate the whole movement because of one or a few asshats! It's just illogical when you delve into it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
Guys, please save it for another thread.
sullly

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
Best to you Lollie and Mighty Hiker. I'm embarrassed by how this thread has been poisoned.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
Guys, please save it for another thread.


Do we really need another thread? I think everybody here sympathizes and feels remorse, but it's a wider discussion of how this happens and how to prevent it.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
Photographs, names and short biographies of about 1/3 of the dead.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/norway-dead-interactive

I'd had the impression that the Norwegian police wouldn't be releasing the names until early next week, but maybe that changed, or The Guardian has other sources. The interactive graphic is set up so that they can add the other victims. The youngest dead was 14. Several bodies haven't been found yet, and they continue to search the lake.

The exchange of text messages between a 16 year old girl on the island and her mother, from after the shootings started until the murderer surrendered.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/26/norway-attacks-survivor-texts-mother
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
I'd had the impression that the Norwegian police wouldn't be releasing the names until early next week, but maybe that changed, or The Guardian has other sources. The interactive graphic is set up so that they can add the other victims. The youngest dead was 14. Several bodies haven't been found yet, and they continue to search the lake.

The exchange of text messages between a 16 year old girl on the island and her mother, from after the shootings started until the murderer surrendered.

I have no words to describe this kind of evil in the guise of being a 'Christian'. There really are none, except that he has defiled a peaceful religion and dragged it into the mud.

In a way I'm a realist/sadist when I try to mentally play-out how this gut did this. And when I have mental images of him in a police uniform rounding up the kids, and then willfully gunning them down, as many as possible...I get sick and upset with the human race and the inherent evil in some people.

Same thing with the throat-cutting videos that Al-Qaeda was doing for a while. I made the mistake of watching a couple.

You have to sit there in horror and ask yourself,"How can somebody actually do that to another human being and walk away fine with it?"

It's evil. That's the only way I see it. Most people CANNOT do that. They won't.

This gut in Norway was similar. Just inhumane. Evil.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
There are still another 2 Right Wing Christain Hate Group Cells we have to Find and Waterboard
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Collie-Rad-O! (FC to be exact)
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
" except that he has defiled a peaceful religion and dragged it into the mud"

Christianity a "peaceful religion"...that's rich! Do your homework dude...
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
Bluey says to me

Hey, dipsh#t, do you want to stop another similar attack? He said there were 2 other cells similar to his.

You want to go 'easy' on this lunatic and risk another attack?

Did we get the info on the other 2 right wing Christian Hate Group Cells yet

We should waterboard him, and then all the rest of them once we get them. right

Just like you wanted

He should be put down like a biting dog. He will continue to spew his hate.

I hate to say it, but after lengthy interrogations and water-boardings...kill him.

He will spread his hate otherwise.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
The events are being referred to in some Norwegian news media as "22/7".

An article reporting on how what happened, and Norway's reaction to it, has been reported in major foreign news media, and about the reaction in world cities.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4184266.ece

(Sorry, only in Norwegian, but very positive. Not surprisingly, Fox News and the Wall Street Journal are the two sources that have attempted an ideological twist, and are being ignored.)

And an article about some of the young people who were killed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/26/norway-shooting-survivors-honour-activists
QITNL

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:21am PT
I'm deeply impressed by the dignified and measured response to the tragedy by the government, authorities and citizens of Norway. From what I've been reading during the aftermath, they are a very noble and enlightened society. Along with my sympathy, I offer my admiration.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:51am PT
(Glen Beck) states(on & off the record)that he is a Mormon. There is a vast difference. this is not the place or time to discuss it, but for starters/instance, they(LDS)do not believe that JC is Divine(God).


Inaccurate statement, thaDood.

I grew up within Mormonism and continue to be a member. The Divinity of Christ is indoctrinated from early childhood on. That is fact, sir.

Some believers seem to think they've been awarded unique and solitary ownership of the title Christian.

Glenn Beck grew up Roman Catholic, attending Catholic schools and was Catholic most of his life. He married a Mormon woman and converted. No disrespect to Catholics but I question whether he “understood” EITHER Catholocism OR Mormonism.

Mr Beck may be on an obstinate, hardheaded path to excommunication. Some Utah newspapers have suggested it… with many readers agreeing. There’s even a Facebook account: Excommunicate Glenn Beck. One contributor posting:

”Beck is a socialpathic, ammoral demagogue and a threat to society. He SHOULD and MUST be excommunicated for his public denouncement/rejection of Christ's Gospel of justice and mercy to the oppressed. If Jesus could call Peter, his chief disciple, "Satan" , how infinitely more should this perversion of humanity be so called.”


Sincere apologies for diverting the discussion.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:58am PT
The Norwegian government's official on-line book of condolences is at http://blogg.regjeringen.no/protokoll/

It's in Norwegian, but pretty straightforward. Click on your cursor in the box where it says "skriv din kommentar her", under Prime Minister Stoltenberg's comments, then type away. Postings are mainly in Norwegian and English, but many other languages also. Click on "vis flere kommentarer" at the bottom to see more.

The site must be monitored for inappropriate posts, but there's nothing specific about that. Pseudonyms may be used.

I've refrained from saying much about the Norwegian reaction to Fox News and Glenn Beck. Let's just say that they are repelled by both, and they couldn't care less what religion Beck has - if any. Whatever he may say, his actions indicate that he is not a meaningful follower of any religion.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
The search for bodies in Tyrifjorden continues, but it sounds like there may not be many more found. Only one is now known to be missing. 400 to 500 were on Utøya when the murderer arrived. (There hasn't been anything on how many were injured, and the police won't issue an official list of the dead and wounded for a few days.)

Prime Minister has announced an independent public enquiry into the tragedy, including "whether more could have been done both to prevent the attacks and respond to them".

"I think what we have seen is that there is going to be one Norway before and one Norway after 22 July," he said. "But I hope and also believe that the Norway we will see after will be more open, a more tolerant society than what we had before."

94% of Norwegians approve generally of the government and Stoltenberg's response, and 82% specifically approve of what he said in his speech on Saturday.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Takk-Jens-Stoltenberg/255147837828656

There was a bomb scare at the Oslo's central station today, which led to it being evacuated. The innumerable items placed in memorials around Norway, particularly in front of Oslo cathedral, are being examined to ensure they are innocent.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/27/norway-victims-named-search-continues

The murderer, calling himself "Andrew Berwick", sent his rambling 1,500 page "manifesto" to 1,003 people by e-mail about 90 minutes before the bomb exploded in Oslo. Many were outside Norway, but all have been identified, and presumably many will be having a visit from the police.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 27, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
Yes Fatty
Waterboard all the Christian Right Wingers to see what other atrocities they have planned.
They are worse than the Muslims, who haven't terrorised Norway
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
FatTrad, Craig, etc: Please don't be rude, irrelevant, or both.

FatTrad: If Norway was to waterboard anyone, it would be right-wingers, including people like many of your associates, if not you. Luckily it's a civilized country. FYI, the killer's first name is about as common in Norway as "Jeffrey" is in the USA. It is derived from the Greek "Andreas", which means "man", and in English would usually be Andrew.

FatTrad: Whatever the Swiss may be doing, Prime Minister Stoltenberg has clearly spoken out in favour of tolerance and democracy, and is strongly supported by the people of Norway. I'm sure there will be a constructive discussion in Norway of these matters over the next months, and Norwegians will decide what's best for their country, in context of its needs and values. There may be a need for more effort to assimilate immigrants - many of whom are UN refugees - but your ignorant hatred and blind support of Israel wouldn't be welcome there.

Lolli: Right on, as usual. I went to the consulate today to sign the book of condolences. An emotional scene.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
Jeff, you are posting five year old articles, about a different country. Can't you have enough respect to keep that crap to your fantasy "Clash" threads?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
I admire the Norwegians; sure seem to be some strong willed and principled people. They don't abandon those principles in tough times, curtailing civil rights, over reacting and inventing new government agencies to leverage and take advantage of fear or panic (unlike some people I know). Instead they seem steadfast in their resolve and as a people seem to be drawing closer together.

Every Norwegian I ever met went out of her way to roll out the welcome mat and seemed intrigued to meet and talk to an American. And it goes without saying, to a person, they could speak my language but I could not speak theirs. Didn't seem to matter to them.

DMT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
Jeff, whether or not he was mentally ill in the medico-legal sense, the killer was motivated by a variety of beliefs, sources and ideologies. Anti-Islam. Racist. Anti-women. And on and on. But the fact is that most of them were right-wing, often far right-wing, in their orientation. Full of hatred, violence and evil. Some from the US, a home of extreme right-wing rhetoric, hate and violence. You can twist and spin it all you like, to no avail. I did little more than to report the fact.

And, as far as the murderer was concerned, he was killing Muslims. But the main element is that he hated, and as a result devastated Norway. The details aren't important.

Your insistence on importing your distorted world view into this is inappropriate and unwelcome. I went to the Norwegian Centre for Holocaust and Genocide Studies when I was there a year ago. It opened in 2006. And I have a Jewish friend who lives in Bergen. Perhaps I should check with her and her partner about what the real situation is? http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memorials/oslo/
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
There ya go pig man, big man show these sheep who you are....
The charade you are....

awesome, i'm listening to animals right now!
Timid TopRope

Social climber
Paradise, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
In my last three posts I have not posted my views.

That's true. In your last three posts you continue to be a dick politicizing a national tragedy. You have yet again dropped another notch on my esteem meter.

America could learn a lot from Norway but unfortunately our national hubris prevents such discourse.

Lolli, I send my heartfelt condolences to you and your country.

All but my immediate family still live in Switzerland. Pretty close to fifty fifty between my liberal and conservative relatives. The conservative ones probably dislike minarets and star of davids equally.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:47am PT
Police now estimate that 200,000 attended the commemorative rally in Oslo on Monday. 76 died in the attacks, 96 were treated in hospital for injuries - many continue to be - and one person is still missing.

They are considering whether to charge the murderer with crimes against humanity, which carries a maximum sentence of 30 years, instead of terrorism, for which the sentence is 21 years. In either case, the sentence can be extended in five year increments if there is any risk of repeat offences, so the practical likelihood is that he will be in jail for the rest of his life. It seems unlikely that he would survive long if ever released, even in Norway.

His defence lawyer - probably state appointed - is Geir Lippestad. He is a fairly high profile lawyer, which is how the murderer probably knew Lippestad's name. However, he is also a member of the Labour Party, which bore the brunt of the attacks.

“Someone has to do this job,” the lawyer told a news conference. Mr. Lippestad, who received Mr. Breivik’s request through the police the day after Friday’s bombings and shootings, said he spent 10 to 12 hours making up his mind before agreeing to accept the case as a matter of principle. “My first reaction was that this was too difficult,” he said. “But then I sat down with family, friends and colleagues and we said that today is the time to think about democracy, and if I said no to this job, then I would say no to democracy.”

Which is exactly how democracy and the rule of law ought to work - everyone, however apparently loathsome, is entitled to a competent defence.

Lippestad knows that the case will involve a lot of pressure, in particular from the news media.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/reluctant-lawyer-agrees-to-defend-norway-killer/article2110303/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
A small boy lays a flower at a memorial opposite Utøya.
Credit: Getty Images

(See also previous, new, post. I wanted this photo here.)

weschrist: check your ST e-mail.
raymond phule

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 03:09pm PT

In my last three posts I have not posted my views. It seems that Europe and Norway have plenty of racists, well beyond the killer madman and his friends.

This is obviously true but what is your point?
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Jul 28, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
Not all republicans or conservatives are violent.

Not all liberals or democrats are pacifists.

Not all whites are rich, blacks are poor, or the culture of one country/religions/...superior to another.

Why must we see the world in black and white? I'm good, anyone who doesn't share my identical value system = evil?

I know most of the poking is in "fun". There was no fun for those Norewgian children hunted and slaughtered like animals for 90 minutes while the 911 operators focused on the down town distraction.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 28, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
MH had it right to begin with - focus on the victims and Norway, and let the trolls rot in hell.

DMT
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 28, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
I don't understand this will to kill him off so quickly. What for?
Death is too easy. If he's dead he escapes.

If he doesn't get death, he gets the "penalty" of Norwegian "prison." Did you see the pictures of Norwegian "prisons" posted earlier in this thread?--as the poster noted, they look somewhat better than typical US budget hotel accommodations, more like a nice mid-range bed and breakfast!

No matter how "enlightened" Norwegians are, perhaps that's going a little too far?
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 28, 2011 - 07:30pm PT
Does it really matter what kind of prison treatment he gets?
NO

Only the revenge seekers need more.

He is out of society, that is all that matters,
please Stop harping on his prison treatment.
It only shows a lack of civility

After 21 years in prison No matter what his treatment is
He will not kill again, that can be assured
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
After 21 years in prison No matter what his treatment is
He will not kill again, that can be assured

Really. How?
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 28, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
YOU MAKE SURE that he can't buy weapons

Boy, that was a tough one
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
YOU MAKE SURE that he can't buy weapons

Boy, that was a tough one

If he figured he might be out in 21 years he could easily have a weapons cache hidden away somewhere. This guy is a good planner. I think the bomb was a diversionary attack to distract the police so he would have more time to kill children.

I am against the death penalty in nearly all cases. But sadly once in a great while someone commits an act which I think rises to the level of a capital crime. I don’t see it as a punishment or an escape, but rather a way to close the event. Speaking for myself it would be hard enough to have to try and pick up the pieces and move on in life after losing a child in such a senseless and bizarre act of violence, but to have to do so knowing every minute that the killer, who so carefully planned his mayhem, is wiling away his hours in relative comfort and could be released in a few years would be even more difficult.

I wonder how the parents of the slain children would poll on this question on a secret ballot.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Jul 28, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
Go on

Rant on..
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
Go on?

You lost me there, Doc...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
Go on

Rant on..

Nice edit. You call my post a rant?? Of all people...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
Skis against the Atom, by Knut Haukelid, is a first hand account of the Norwegian resistance effort to prevent Germany from using Norways extensive hydro power plants to produce heavy water for their atomic bomb program.

Those people were Heroes.

Off topic I know, but only sort of.
shady

Trad climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
Mighty Hiker..
This is going to hurt, but be brave. It's for a good cause.

My grandfather had a fireplace and hearth that had living lichen on it, it was beautiful.
He would nourish it by spraying beer on it a few times a year. He enjoyed darker brews, but this might finally be a good use for Bud-lite.
Thank you for your restoration efforts.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
Cool story...thanks

The bit about sinking the ferry is incomplete. As I recall from the book, the village was on one side of the Fiord and the place where many villagers worked was on the other, so the ferry carried many people to and from work each day. Haukelid, when he planted the bomb on board, knew he could not warn the villagers because if they did not show up to ride to work the Germans would know something was up.

He knowingly sent a boatload of his fellow countrymen to their death in order to defeat the German effort to get out their heavy water.

Hard choices.

Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:21am PT
Breivik isn't afraid of death.

Anyone who single handedly undertook nine years of disciplined and meticulous planning and preparation and then executed the plan to success, despite all the apparent dangers along the way, is not overwhelmed with the fear of confronting death. He transformed himself into a kind of revolutionary warrior, in his own words a Crusading knight.

I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding about what went down and I'm trying to make sense of it myself. I've just started to skim Breivik's manifesto (‘2083 A European Declaration of Independence’). The copy I downloaded unfortunately has no table of contents. A large section of it appears to be an examination of Western European cultural, religious, and political history. My first impression is that it made me cognizant of how very little I know about Western European history or Islamic history in general (I'm a college trained artist in NYC so my most familiar history is art history, but I couldn't name a handful of Islamic artists if my life depended on it). My ignorance thus complicates the reading. Nonetheless, there's no doubt that the DNA of Europe's history has encoded the modern world.

He identifies in part with early Western European Christian history. As an example, the dispensation of Indulgences by the church reduced one's temporal punishment due for past sins. Crusaders were offered plenary indulgence by the Pope (recall that many believe abuse of Indulgences to be the major precipitant of the Protestant Reformation). I think(?) Breivik believes that he awaits Martyrdom, and that his sacrifice as a Crusader has earned him a spiritual payoff in the form of an Indulgence.

I understand the emotional mechanism that makes people want to dismiss Breivik as insane and sweep him and his ideas under the carpet, however I think it unwise. I do not think he is insane. Evil yes. But his writing doesn’t strike me as the product of insanity. He has a fully developed, fully matured, ideology. He didn't arise in a vacuum. Furthermore, the populations of entire nations have adopted exponentially more improbable ideologies than his and equally violent. National/regional/global crises have a way of consolidating ideologies. Look at Rwanda. Look at Bosnia. Look at Iraq. But do not ignore Western Europe. Much has gone down in Western Europe in the past century and much will go down there in the future and it is highly naïve to think otherwise.

Comprehending ideologically what Breivik believes is not incompatible with respect for the memories of his victims. I think that their deaths demand our attention to this. You do not protect against something like this by ignoring it, pretending it does not exist, sticking your head in the sand, and therefore it’s not a threat. That gross oversight is the primary reason behind the total failure of Norway’s security forces. I suspect they will not make that same mistake twice. A paradigm shift has occurred and with it Norway will become a different place.

It may be best to take any discussion of this to another thread.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 29, 2011 - 12:29am PT
Very interesting analysis, Gas. Probably the best I've heard yet.

I'll post my thoughts on QITNL's thread.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 29, 2011 - 01:19am PT
Riley, I get what you are saying, but at what point does justifying killing dozens of innocent people become psychosis?

Psychotics can be really high functioning in many areas. You have to be more than stupid to butcher so many people
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 02:47am PT
There is no need to rehash this.

The Nazis proved to the world that one can be a gentle loving father, husband, brother, and son by night and a murderer of innocent men, women, and children by day. No conflict. All in the same individual.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 29, 2011 - 03:17am PT
He is insane in the fundamentalist sense.


What exactly is "the fundamentalist sense" Riley? "Fundamentalist" has become Supertopo's favorite snarl word. But it's debatable if the word has significant meaning used by itself.

Fundamentalism relates to a specific system of beliefs that one can fundamentally adhere to. Certainly there are atheist fundamentalists...if one is unwavering in his or her belief that there is no god...don't they fit the category of atheist fundamentalist?


Same old fundamentalist half truths and jibberish we get from the Taliban, Evangelicals, Nationalist Jews or even the Mormons


These groups are poles apart on many issues. Are you sure you want to unify them in one grouping?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 03:18am PT
He is insane in the fundamentalist sense.

Not quite. Not in my opinion. We need to be careful of projecting our own stereotypes onto him.
In fact he appears to be tolerant of several religious faiths, but not Islam.

Even concerning the Christian faith his beliefs appear to be leavened with a sort of practicality that one wouldn't expect from a strident fundamentalist. I read a passage of his discussing prayer, that is to say why to use prayer immediately before a 'mission', such as the mission he undertook with the bomb and shootings. He wrote something along the lines that one may not believe in an afterlife, but that they should pray anyway because prayer may give them a psychological boost and that it wouldn't take anything away from them and even if there's no afterlife prayer could help by simply providing a space and time to focus the mind in preparation. More importantly he believes that for a 'Knight' belief in an afterlife will make them a more aggressive, effective, and unstoppable warrior because they have overcome one of man's primary limitations, the fear of death, so the afterlife belief is important for the psychologically enabling mechanism it produces. A warrior that does not fear dying is more formidable and in his opinion just a small number of such warriors can achieve significant results.

At least in that bit I read, he allowed for a range of ways to relate to religious belief and Practicality and success seemed paramount.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 29, 2011 - 03:27am PT
The names of the 41 dead released so far by Norwegian police.

Tamta Lipartelliani (23)
Kevin Daae Berland (15)
Silje Stamneshagen (18)
Hanne Kristine Fridtun (19)
Kjersti Berg Sand (26)
Håkon Ødegaard (17)
Sondre Furseth Dale (17)
Henrik André Pedersen (27)
Eivind Hovden (15)
Rolf Christopher Johansen Perreau (25)
Sverre Flåte Bjørkavåg (28)
Eva Kathinka Lütken (14)
Ismail Haji Ahmed (19)
Maria Maagerø Johannesen (17)
Modupe Ellen Awoyemi (15)
Lene Maria Bergum (19)
Guro Vartdal Håvoll (18)
Marianne Sandvik (16)
Andreas Dalby Grønnesby (17)
Sondre Kjøren (17)
Bendik Rosnæs Ellingsen (18)
Gizam Dogan (17)
Snorre Haller (20)
Johannes Buø (14)
Sharidyn Svebakk-Bøhn (14)
Birgitte Smetbak (15)
Margrethe Bøyum Kløven (15)
Syvert Knudsen (17)
Bano Rashid (18)
Even Flugstad Malmedal (18)
Synne Røyneland (18)
Simon Sæbø (18)
Diderik Aamodt Olsen (19)
Gunnar Linaker (23)
Kai Hauge (32)
Hanne Annette Balch Fjalestad (43)
Trond Berntsen (51)
Anne Lise Holter (51)
Tove Åshill Knutsen (56)
Hanne Marie Orvik Endresen (61)
Kevin Daae Berland
Silje Stamneshagen
Gizem Dogan

Photos and short biographies at http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4186173.ece

One was from Georgia, and one from New Zealand. At least five have names that aren't traditionally Norwegian.

As for the murderer's "manifesto". Well, all such killers seem to have them. They're superficially plausible, as are all conspiracy theories. That is, there's a lot of incontrovertible facts and analysis. A history professor I once had, known as an arch-conservative, had a favourite trick, which was to assign readings from Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, and similar writings. His point being that much of what was in such writings had some truth, sometimes disturbingly so. You can't say that any of these people - Hitler, Marx, the unabomber, the Oklahoma City murderers, and on and on - were completely wrong. Life is nowhere near that simple.

They're wrong, and evil, in the self-serving conclusions they come to, and the actions that they take based on those conclusions.

As for the complex interrelationship between Islam and the West, going back to the 7th century, many of you would benefit from reading Norman Davis' "Europe: A History". Neither the West nor Islam is anything like a monolith, and the intertwined civilizations have a long history together. Whatever the beliefs of some, and present challenges, it seems likely that the Norwegians will continue to view world affairs in an informed and nuanced manner, bearing in mind their nation's values and goals. The Vikings appear in Islamic sources from the 10th century, after all.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 03:38am PT
Thanks for that link MH.
I've been looking for sites that had pictures of the victims, but couldn't find anything comprehensive (unfortunately, my browser is having issues loading all the pics in the link you posted). Would like to see a site in English as well, so if you find one please post up.

It's important to put an individual face on the victims instead of them being mere statistics.
And to learn who they were.
reddirt

climber
PNW
Jul 29, 2011 - 04:01am PT
a little fundamentalist

isn't that a bit oxymoronic...
reddirt

climber
PNW
Jul 29, 2011 - 04:22am PT
Unfortunately I have an exceptionally keen fundie radar & Anders is no fundamentalist...
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 04:59am PT
Riley Wyna:
Really, to try and answer Jenny, isn't fundamentalism the twisting, hardening or ultimate perversion of any belief system anyway?

It may be useful to make a distinction between A.) fundamentalist ‘holding a strict literal interpretation of the main texts of a religious faith’, B.) religious (or other) fanatic, and C.) a strict believer, but one holding a belief that is not a literal one.

--------------


Might Hiker:
They're wrong, and evil, in the self-serving conclusions they come to, and the actions that they take based on those conclusions.

Murderers, shopkeepers, climbers, capitalists, communists, secularists, fundamentalists all subscribe to an ideology. Speaking broadly, who's to say which is 'true', or 'right', or wrong', or 'evil'? More importantly, what does truth (or right, wrong, evil, etc) matter, and what is its measure? It seems to me there's a moving target as 'truth', and the means of discerning it, will differ depending upon the operative ideology.

The conundrum of 'fundamentalist' contemporary multiculturalism (is that a term?) is the value it places upon multiple coexistent ideologies each originating from vastly different origins. Political correctness would entail being open to and supportive of these multiple and vastly different ideologies, correct? But what to do when opposing ideologies are not merely rhetorical constructs but real and appear to be mutually exclusive, generate friction, or have as a basic immutable tenet the annihilation of the other? The orthodox Jew under the ideological influence of the multicultural politically correct nation-state wants to embrace his fellow neighbor, the Nazi. And visa versa. Two opposing different systems of Purity: Jew=Chosen People; Nazi=Master Race. But the Nazi's ideology is to exterminate the Jew. So the ideology that multiple cultures with real and vast differences can and should coexist, on the same neighborhood block, is flawed? Indeed, what would occur is a mutual annihilation of the original ideologies (Judaism, Nazism - exit stage left) and a conversion into some assimilated mutation, in effect an altogether different and new incorporative ideology ductile enough to contain the differences. But that is no longer multiculturalism, correct? That's a conversion. And a destruction of the mainstay of the original ideology.


Perhaps the dirty secret of multiculturalism is that multiculturalism isn't multiple cultures living together at all: it's perhaps really a new ideology of assimilation that includes a component that mythologizes itself as being open and receptive to the ‘other’ while at the same time demanding homogeneity regarding basic ideas and ideals, while also maintaining an aspect of ductility which allows for a superficial mutation of the dominant ideology which serves a function to propagate the mythology of opposites coexisting?




Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 29, 2011 - 08:05am PT
Perhaps the dirty secret of multiculturalism is that multiculturalism isn't multiple cultures living together at all: it's perhaps really a new ideology of assimilation that includes a component that mythologizes itself as being open and receptive to the ‘other’ while at the same time demanding homogeneity regarding basic ideas and ideals, while also maintaining an aspect of ductility which allows for a superficial mutation of the dominant ideology which serves a function to propagate the mythology of opposites coexisting?

You just described the American Way bro. Its not new at all, its as hold as the hills.

DMT
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 29, 2011 - 10:48am PT
Same old fundamentalist half truths and jibberish we get from the Taliban, Evangelicals, Nationalist Jews or even the Mormons


These groups are poles apart on many issues. Are you sure you want to unify them in one grouping?


Jennie, The reality is that these groups ARE VERY MUCH unitied in philosophy - that of unwavering belief in a supernatural authority and that serving this authority in this world is rewarded by attainment of a better world through death. They are also unified in their social and political structures that adhere to fundamentals of authoritarianism. The fact that various adherents of this philosophy are at odds with each other has more to do with tribalism. They eat their own because they dress different.

Central to the definition of fundamentalist is that their belief is immune to evidence to the contrary. Religious code provides the best foundation for countering the logic of rational critical thinking. The notion that atheists, or scientists, or stamp collectors or fly fishermen can be "fundamentalists" is a bit of a stretch and I think Dawkins provides this explanation best:


Richard Dawkins has rejected the charge of "fundamentalism," arguing that critics mistake his "passion"—which he says may match that of evangelical Christians—for an inability to change his mind. Dawkins asserts that the atheists' position is not a fundamentalism that is unable to change its mind, but is held based on the verifiable evidence; as he puts it: "The true scientist, however passionately he may "believe" in evolution for example, knows exactly what would change his mind: evidence! The fundamentalist knows that nothing will."[43] Put another way, Dawkins states:
...Maybe scientists are fundamentalist when it comes to defining in some abstract way what is meant by 'truth'. But so is everybody else. I am no more fundamentalist when I say evolution is true than when I say it is true that New Zealand is in the southern hemisphere. We believe in evolution because the evidence supports it, and we would abandon it overnight if new evidence arose to dispute it. No real fundamentalist would ever say anything like that...[54]
The truth of the holy book is an axiom, not the end product of a process of reasoning. The book is true, and if the evidence seems to contradict it, it is the evidence that must be thrown out, not the book.
Continuing, Dawkins explains the reason he seems so passionate "is because the evidence for evolution is overwhelmingly strong and I am passionately distressed that my opponent can't see it."

For examples of non religious fundamentalism see "climate change skeptics". More than once I posed the question to the chief on that thread "If you were presented with affirmative evidence of the existence and negative effect of AGW by an authority that you respect and have faith in, would you accept it?"

it was met with evasion, dismissal or stony silence.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 11:31am PT
Bruce Kay:
Richard Dawkins has rejected the charge of "fundamentalism," arguing that critics mistake his "passion"—which he says may match that of evangelical Christians—for an inability to change his mind.


Will Dawkins change his mind on basic ideological issues, for example his faith in reductive reason as the means to arrive at Truth, or the fetish of the number '1' (scientific method reductive reasoning to arrive at ONE answer, why not THREE or FOUR answers?), etc. And where is his proof that reason is the sole means of arriving at truth other than his faith that this is so?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 29, 2011 - 11:44am PT
LG.... that is an interesting question. Is ones belief in deductive reasoning unwavering? are there other processes of explaining reality? and while we're at it, whats the meaning of life anyway?

I think you're digging deeper than I'm capable of going but by all means keep going! I've been finding the discussion quite interesting lately
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 11:47am PT
Multiculturalism polices the dominant cultural ideology not only against other cultures, but also against earlier ideological components of its own culture so that its values are those of (post)modernity. For example, there's very little tolerance in the USA now for some old school folk in Massachusetts who want to conduct a Salem type witch trial ... Salem style waterboarding by submerging the potential witch in a pond with weighted rocks to see if she floats. Or very little tolerance for Jim Crow laws.

The response would be just as immediate and severe as the contemporary USA response to the Plains Indians attempting to reclaim their nomadic buffalo hunting culture. They'd be shut down, arrested, and booked within a day.


From my post upthread:
Perhaps the dirty secret of multiculturalism is that multiculturalism isn't multiple cultures living together at all: it's perhaps really a new ideology of assimilation that includes a component that mythologizes itself as being open and receptive to the ‘other’ while at the same time demanding homogeneity regarding basic ideas and ideals, while also maintaining an aspect of ductility which allows for a superficial mutation of the dominant ideology which serves a function to propagate the mythology of opposites coexisting?

When we multiculturalists are confronted with the contradictions within our own ideology, we seem to have invented Political Correctness as one mechanism of the "ductility which allows for a superficial mutation of the dominant ideology". Political Correctness is the dominant ideology adjusting itself to incorporate and assimilate superficial elements of the 'other' secondary cultures. The remaining major elements of the secondary cultures are left on the editing room floor.



Norway maybe has been fortunate insofar as the dominant culture hasn't been deeply challenged since the Nazis came to visit.

For example I read on Wikipedia that now there's only 818 Jews in Norway.

Perhaps the current generation of Norwegians, due to their high standard of living and relatively homogenous culture haven't needed to confront the prospect of a significant cultural threat to their dominant culture. And things may likely remain that way. However, in the aftermath of the recent tragedy I imagine that the cultural discourse will now become more prominent, as will the issue of immigration. Because of Breivik's stated motivations, there's invariably going to be significant discourse regarding these topics ... unless Norway undergoes a form of national repression, declares Breivik insane, and attempts to carry on as if nothing has happened.


God, I'd hate to contaminate this thread by introducing the WoS controversy here (for the sake of climbing content), however one possibility is that the same general 'cultural' issues that we've been discussing have played out in Yosemite in the 1980s with similar dynamics: traditional dominant culture vs. secondary culture, policing of boarders, 'climbing multiculturalism', climbing political correctness in the Valley now and then, etc. It may even point to a way of understanding and reconciling with the past without having to resort to historical revisionism or losing face. It's worth exploring.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 29, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
Bruce Kay:
Is ones belief in deductive reasoning unwavering?

Belief in deductive reasoning is a characteristic of Western culture.
Belief in deductive reasoning is a significant traditional distinction between a scientific ideology and a religious ideology.

If one truly believes that one can have their head cut off and buried and the body can come back to life, or that one can literally die and resurrect that is incompatible with a true belief in deductive reasoning and science.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 29, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
LG: I'll let you know if I come across information about the dead in English. The Guardian had at least a partial presentation.

I haven't heard anything further regarding a national service, but believe it's likely there'll be one in the next few days.

Fundamentalism, multiculturalism, assimilation, etc. There's not much doubt that Norway will discuss those things in the next while. This thread reminds me, though, how profoundly different the various nations and cultures are in some ways. Canada and the US, despite many superficial similarities. More so either Canada or the US, and Norway. The melting pot really isn't an option, given the homogeneity and uniqueness of Norwegian culture, and that immigrants are less than 10% of the population. (Significantly greater in both Canada and the US.) In the end, I suspect that Norway will continue to go its own way, true to its own values. You can argue that they're wealthy and somewhat insulated, and so have choices others don't. Or you can just say they're trying their own way, which is different, and may work for them.

Norwegians are if nothing else very determined, once they've made up their minds, and there is a strong national ethos. They'll do what they think best.

As for professional ice hockey. Well, I've never had a television. But from what I've seen of hockey (and television), it's entirely compromised by commercial 'values', promotes a culture and values (violence, money...) that are repugnant, and distorts Canadian culture. It's an ugly business, even if at times it can be entertaining. Perhaps it's consistent with my partly-Norwegian heritage that I am repelled by it, notwithstanding that the easy way would be to go along with the crowd. Not at all fundamentalist - just determined in my views.

Also, there's no doubt that hockey causes rioting, and that it's great fun baiting those of its supporters that are blind to its excesses and stupidity.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 29, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
I've done a lot of business in Canada, worked for a Canadian firm for a few years, and worked for a Canadian for several years more. I love Canada and her people and have had to learn in my own fashion and measure the differences.

The similarities are not superficial, they are real. The differences are not imagined, they are real as well.

From cool west coasters to heartland Winnipeggers to passive aggressive Ottawans to schizo Quebecers to Scots living in Newfoundland... love the country and celebrate both the common ground and our delightful differences.

Like curling leagues. Delightfully bizarre.

Eh?

DMT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 29, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
The final death toll is now set at 77, and all victims have been identified and families notified. Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) has been reading out all the names of those who have been identified each night after the 6:00 PM news. The complete list, with home town and age, is on the Norwegian police website - https://www.politi.no/Kampanje_70.xhtml

It was a selfish relief that I don't recognize any of the names, although it's likely that cousins and friends knew some of the dead, or their families.

A useful English language site with information about Norway, the attacks, and related matters:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/

Including an article as to why foreigners don't "get" Norway:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/28/foreigners-just-dont-get-norway/

It may not be the most profound analysis, but is well worth reading. And it mirrors many things already said here.

I still haven't heard anything about a state memorial, or when the "22/7 Commission" will be required to report by. I expect the latter to be very thorough, very public, and quite untainted by political bias.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 30, 2011 - 02:57am PT
Friday was St. Olav's Day - he is the patron saint of Norway. (He wasn't very saintly, but then..) Flags throughout Norway were flown at half mast, in honour of the dead.

The 'most read' article on the Aftenposten website as of earlier today was one that was highly critical of Fox News' twisted coverage of the events and their cause. There has been a quite negative reaction - the thing which surprises me being that many (if any) Norwegians watch Fox News (presumably on the internet), or care about it.

Two psychiatrists have been appointed to examine the accused, to determine whether he is sane and fit to stand trial. One is considered the most experienced criminal psychiatrist in Norway. They must deliver their report by November 1st.

Far upthread someone posted photos, allegedly of the sort of prison in which the accused would be kept. The prison is the Halden Fengsel, which is a fairly new medium to low security prison serving Østfold. Not a place for violent criminals - perhaps the US media was lazy, or had an agenda, in suggesting otherwise.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 30, 2011 - 11:02am PT
Prime Minister Stoltenberg's address at Oslo Cathedral a few days ago. So you can all learn some Norwegian. (click on the "cc" on the popup toolbar on the bottom of the photo to get a translation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oPbd9UvZuY

Crown Prince Håkon Magnus' address at Oslo city hall on Monday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT2Iy_eJj8E (Norwegian only)
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 31, 2011 - 06:50am PT
The Wikipedia article, in my opinion, appears slanted as an opinionated commentary and somewhat different than the material ABB wrote. He seems to me to operate more along the lines of an undercover secret agent. He cultivated a normal outward persona as an extension of his past, all the while polishing and shaping it to provide the necessary cover story to conceal the planning, acquisition, and fabrication stages of his 'one man cell' terrorist activity.


Like the prisoners released from incarceration at the Bastille prison during the French Revolution, or the prisoners released from Iraqi prisons during the US invasion, he believes that Norway/Europe's 'multiculturalist/cultural Marxist' regime will be deposed during a regime change in future decades brought about by a revolution that he helped to initiate, at which time he will be released from prison by the new government.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 31, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
Credit: Reuters

The coverage in the news media is now more about details, and individual stories. The first of the dead to be buried was on Friday - Bano Rashid, a Kurdish young woman (18) originally from Iraq.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/29/norway-terror-attacks-victim-funeral?INTCMP=SRCH

It seems unlikely that the murderer will ever be freed, or if he was, that he would survive for long. It appears that he may also have been planning to bomb the palace in Oslo, and the headquarters of the Labour Party, but was prevented from doing so, possibly by the logistics. The police are also looking for two Swedish right-wing extremists with whom he was in contact, and who may have worked for him on the 'farm' where he prepared. They are also pursuing other of his contacts.

Former Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland's thoughts on what happened, and the aftermath for Norway: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/29/gro-expects-long-mourning-process/ She just missed being murdered on Utøya, having left the island about an hour before the killer arrived. She is an extremely popular senior stateswoman.

There was a mini-scandal in Norway last year, when it was discovered that the US embassy had been engaging in surveillance of Norwegians, outside the immediate area of its embassy. The public and government were outraged. However, the prosecutor recently decided not to press charges. It seems likely that there were some confidential diplomatic discussions between the governments with regard to what is and isn't acceptable.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/28/norway-drops-us-surveillance-case/

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Book+condolence+grieving+Norwegians+signed+Vancouver+consulate+Wednesday/5166932/story.html?cid=megadrop_story
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 31, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
MH, how many were shot on Utøya and survived? I can't seem to find any reports.

I can't imagine ABB will ever get out of prison no matter what Norway's laws are as he's too much of a threat (the prison release scenario I posted unthread is ABB's own belief and self-indoctrination).

Once it became known a Caucasian Christian was responsible for the attacks many news sources had reversed themselves calling ABB a criminal not a terrorist. But ABB's writings clearly demonstrate that his intentions are to effect political change by sending a message of terror to his political enemies so as to coerce them into changing their political positions and as a media marketing tool to introduce his political ideas to the broader public discourse.

From what I was reading regarding Norway (MH's links and others) it does appear to be an unusually open society (the PM bicycles to work, etc.). It would be a shame for that to end in order to balance the need for increased security.

Post 9/11 the USA dramatically transformed into a fearful paranoid culture and the Patriot Act deepened that vibe and challenged our liberties. Ordinary people became apprehensive about speaking their opinions. The mistrust was pervasive and then the unwarranted invasion of Iraq. Looking back the total package is like some sort of nightmare. Hopefully Norway will be spared that. Then there's the very real successes of terrorism such as Spain ordering it's troops out of Iraq in 2004. There's also the usual conspiracy theories abounding about who is 'really' behind the Norway killings and for what ulterior ends.



Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jul 31, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
here is an interesting take on the deal in Norway. Andrew Nikiforuk is a canadian writer and critic of the Tar sands development and the political support for it from the Alberta and Federal government.
This article seems to be a critique of Norways similar position as a "Petro state", although he claims their handling of the resource is infinitely superior to that of Canada, Nigeria, Sudan or other third world kleptocracies.

I guess he's saying that gross wealth, no matter how you handle it, is a bit of a poison. He speculates that the killer and the twisted xenophobic rightwing mind set, which is on the upswing in Norway, may have spun off of this circumstance. beats me, but maybe someone with more insight could comment.



http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/07/27/NorwayTragedyAndOil/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 1, 2011 - 11:27am PT
LG, the estimate is that there were 700 people on Utøya when the murderer arrived. He came by what seems to have been a foot ferry - it's not a big island. He must have had a big bag with his weapons and ammunition, which would have been a bit odd, but perhaps his uniform deterred anyone from asking what he was doing.

Of the 700 or so, 69 were killed. The overall total of those who were treated in hospital for injuries was 96, but 10 - 20% of them must have been related to the downtown bomb. So the number physically injured at Utøya would have been 70 to 80.

The first person accounts of survivors (mostly in Norwegian) are not for the faint of heart.

I believe that the murders will cause Norway and its people a period of sorrow and self-examination, in terms of their country, its values, and its place in the world. Ultimately, though, I believe that what happened will lead them to reaffirm who and what they are, perhaps with some modifications. They will also learn from what happened in the US both before and after 11/9, and the way in which those events were twisted for political gain. It seems unlikely that Norway will react in a similar frightened, violent way, or that it can be manipulated into overreacting. It's very different culture and society.

The events have led to a significant jump in support for the Labour Party and Prime Minister Stoltenberg, and drop in support for the right-wing Progress Party which the killer belonged to. The opposite of the desired effect.

Whether "oil corrupts" is a thesis worth exploring is another matter. It has to some extent in Canada, where oil and gas definitely talk and politicians listen, first in Alberta and now nationally. I suspect less so in Norway, given very different national dynamics. As a result of oil and gas it became a much wealthier country, but they've consciously and openly worked to temper the effects.

The killer still claims that there are two other cells, and that he had accomplices. He says he will disclose the names if the government, the leaders of the armed forces, and the king all resign.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Outpouring+sympathy+Norway+Labour+after+massacre/5186206/story.html
tinker b

climber
the commonwealth
Aug 1, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
i am watching thenorwegion parliment procedings on cspan. they all look and sund like anders.
they have really focused on how they will react from this stressing free speech, love, and maintaining their norwegien integrety. i am imprssed.
they read the names of the dead and their ages. it is so sad to hear about so many young. the anders look alike played violin. my thoughts go out to folks over there.
peace
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 2, 2011 - 02:47am PT
A memorial was held in the Storting (parliament) today, attended by both King Harald and Crown Prince Håkon, and many from the families of the victims. The names of the 77 dead were read.

The Storting has decided that there will be a national day of mourning on August 21st, including a memorial concert. It will be at the largest suitable venue in the country.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/01/day-of-mourning-to-be-held-21-august/

It appears that the murderer was delayed on his way into and out of Oslo on July 22nd, due to a car accident. He had originally intended to set his bomb several hours earlier, but by mid afternoon many people had left work on a summer Friday. He would then have arrived at Utøya earlier, in time for the large rally attended by Gro Harlem Brundtland. The bomb also had reduced effect in that the vehicle was parked above an underground tunnel, which absorbed much of the blast.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/01/breivik-delayed-new-details-reveal/

And a journalist's perspective - a writer from The Guardian, sent to try to talk with families and friends at Bardu, which is north of Trondheim. It has 4,000 inhabitants - two died at Utøya, and two were injured.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/01/talk-survivors-norway-attacks
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 2, 2011 - 10:39am PT
terroristic violence is a legitimate solution is one that he could have easily picked up on the left.

HAHAHHAHAHa. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Where do you find these comedic gems?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 2, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
skip, who is Daniel Greenfield, and where was his inflammatory article published? Some right-wing Israeli blog? Most of what he says is ideologically driven innuendo - his agenda seems a simplistic pro-Israel, pro-US, anti-Muslim one.

Norway will undoubtedly go through a period of self-examination as a result of what happened. A significant minority of Norwegians are less than comfortable with the reality of immigration and assimilation, or to be more accurate, uncomfortable with change. Whether it will lead to any change in its national policies is another matter. They're determined folk.

Norway has long rejected the extremism promoted in Greenfield's article. It supports Israel, but not blindly, particularly that country's intransigence with regard to coming to a reasonable settlement with the Palestinians, and the utterly uncritical support it is given by some in the US and other countries. It also supports the Palestinians, but again not blindly. It is a credit to Norway that although it sees the situation as it is, it doesn't cry "a plague on all your houses", but instead works with both as best it can.

The suggestion that anti-Semitism is common in Norway is laughable, and questioning some of the policies of Israel is hardly the same thing. No doubt there are a few true anti-Semites in Norway, and a few anti-Islam bigots also - exposing them, especially the fanatics, seems a likely priority. But stating that Norway's Labour Party long ago had links with international communism, and jumping to the conclusion that that "proves" anything, or claiming that the murders were somehow linked to state terrorism, is absurd. A sad attempt by what seems to be an American-Israeli author of unknown credibility to blow some dog whistles, in the hope that his extreme audience will drool.

Let me re-emphasize. Norway tends to go its own way in these matters. It doesn't care for the narrow ideological blinkers that the US often adopts, and attempts by ideologically motivated and ignorant US writers to frame the discussion within their narrow prisms are of little use.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Aug 2, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
Skip
That is repulsive
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Aug 2, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
here's the Frontpage web site.

http://frontpagemag.com/author/daniel-greenfield/



Skipt, have you ever considered offering up your mind to science?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 2, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
Glenn Beck compared the Workers Youth League camp to a Hitler Youth camp

Anybody who quotes Glenn Beck on anything other than recommendations for donuts
is instantly suspect, at best/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 2, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
Some discussion, but not true debate, has begun with regard to tightened gun control in Norway. It started a year or more ago, and will now be heightened. The police want tighter regulations, in particular with regard to semi-automatic rifles and handguns. There are about 1.2 million registered firearms in Norway, with about 400,000 holding licences - although many relate to military and civil defence.

A discussion of whether there should be life sentences for mass murders and similar crimes has also begun. Norway has local and regional elections this autumn, and national elections next year.

It seems likely that there will be much discussion before any decision, and they'll wait until the parliamentary enquiry has finished. It seems likely that tighter regulations will eventually result, possibly combined with measures to reduce illegal importation of firearms.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/02/police-will-have-stricter-gun-control/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 3, 2011 - 02:38am PT
The following offers some helpful insights, from a Norwegian perspective.
A Blogosphere of Bigots

By Jostein Gaarder and Thomas Hylland Eriksen

Published: July 28, 2011

Room For Debate - Will the Norway Massacre Deflate Europe's Right Wing?

The killings could weaken nationalist fervor in Europe, as the Oklahoma City bombing cooled off militias in the U.S. in the late 1990s.

It is tempting to view ABB, the self-described Christian crusader behind the July 22 massacre in Norway, as an isolated case of pure evil. Yet history has taught us that such acts of violence rarely occur independent of their social and cultural surroundings. The assassination of Sweden’s prime minister, Olof Palme, on a Stockholm street in 1986, like the January shooting of Representative Gabrielle Giffords outside a shopping mall in Arizona, took place at a time when caustic antigovernment rhetoric was widespread.

Mr. Breivik managed to commit two terrorist attacks in a single afternoon. But the hatred and contempt from which he drew his deranged determination were shared with many others throughout the international right-wing blogosphere.

The racism and bigotry that have simmered for years on anti-Islamic and anti-immigration Web sites in Norway and other European countries and in the United States made it possible for him to believe he was acting on behalf of a community that would thank him. As John Donne famously put it, “No man is an island ... every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.”

Norway’s security police had estimated that only a small number of Norwegians belonged to domestic right-wing extremist groups in 2010 and that they did not pose a security threat — an estimate that clearly has turned out to be erroneous. There may be only a few known members of ragged and powerless white-power groups, but the thousands of right-wing extremists who don’t belong to recognized groups are harder to pin down.

The global Islamophobic blogosphere consists of loosely connected networks of people — including students, civil servants, capitalists, and neo-Nazis. Many do not even see themselves as “right-wing,” but as defenders of enlightened values, including feminism.

The Islamophobes of Norway have no manifesto, but they share three fundamental views: that Norway is in the hands of a treacherous, spineless, politically correct elite that has betrayed the pure spirit of Norwegian culture by permitting demographic contamination; that Muslims will never be truly integrated (even if they pretend to be); and that there is a Muslim conspiracy to gain political dominance across Europe.

Hatred of Muslims and resentment of the left — one of us has repeatedly received resentful diatribes against the “multiculturalist elite,” and was mentioned in Mr. Breivik’s own writings — is not confined to Norway. Mr. Breivik has praised Gates of Vienna, a Web site that compares contemporary Europe to long-ago wars with the Ottomans. He has praised writers like Bruce Bawer, the American author of “While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within,” and Bat Ye’Or, the pseudonym for the British author of the conspiratorial “Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis.” He is an enthusiastic reader of the virulently anti-Islamic blog of Pamela Geller, an American who leads the group “Stop Islamization of America” and gained notoriety for her opposition to an Islamic center near ground zero in Manhattan.

Europe’s new right is, in other words, not neo-Nazi; it has swapped anti-Semitism for Islamophobia. After a hiatus of several hundred years, fear of Islam reemerged around 1989, as the Cold War was ending and Iranian mullahs issued a fatwa against the British writer Salman Rushdie. It gained popularity as increasing numbers of Muslims entered Europe as immigrants in the 1990s, and became widespread in the aftermath of 9/11. Traditional racism may actually be waning in several European countries, but hostility toward Islam and animosity toward Muslim immigrants and their children is on the rise.

Norwegian society is changing, and rapid immigration has no doubt led to tensions. In a country of under 5 million people, the number of immigrants and their children has doubled to over 550,000 in the last 15 years. Many of them are Poles and Swedes seeking work, and their presence is uncontroversial. Others have arrived as refugees and asylum-seekers from countries like Somalia, Iraq and Bosnia. And a substantial number have come to Norway to join relatives or spouses already in the country. About 200,000 — including more than 30,000 Pakistanis — have roots in Muslim countries.

Because of our healthy economy, fueled by North Sea oil, controversies over immigration tend to concern culture rather than economics. The perception that immigrants are patriarchal and insular has sparked controversies over everything from school excursions to swimming lessons to disrespect for female teachers. Yet many “new Norwegians” fully participate in society. Indeed, some of them were at work in the government buildings destroyed last week; others were taking part in the Utoya summer camp.

Conceding that a culturally diverse society raises knotty and complex social and political questions is one thing. It is quite another to state that a multicultural society is impossible, or that Islam is incompatible with democracy. Yet the blogosphere to which Mr. Breivik belonged took these views as a basic premise.

It is too early to tell if anything positive can emerge from this tragedy. In the upcoming elections, Norway’s Labor Party will likely receive many sympathy votes and the right could be adversely affected by its associations with Islamophobia. In the long run, the situation is less certain. In other Scandinavian countries, Social Democrats have been pushed to the right by anti-immigration parties. We hope that Norway’s longstanding consensus about immigration and integration policies will not be eroded.

Until last week, Norwegian authorities did not see the far right as a security threat. Mr. Breivik has now shown that those who claim to protect the next generation of Norwegians against Islamist extremism are, in fact, the greater menace.
Jostein Gaarder is the author of “Sophie’s World” and many other books. Thomas Hylland Eriksen is a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/opinion/Gaarder-Eriksen.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=norway%20massacre&st=cse
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 3, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
•KARAR MUSTAFA QASIM (19)

•PORNTIP ARDAM (21)

•JAMIL RAFAL MOHAMAD JAMIL (20)

•MONA ABDINUR (18)

•TAMTA LIPARTELLIANI (23)

•ISMAIL HAJI AHMED (19)

•MODUPE ELLEN AWOYEMI (15)

•GIZEM DOGAN (17)

•BANO ABOBAKAR RASHID (18)

Most of these nine (out of 77 dead) have been identified as refugees, or children of refugees, from Muslim countries. Five or six, at least, have names of undoubtable Muslim origin. There have been suggestions that the killer targeted young people with non-Nordic features on Utøya.

Names and ages taken from the Norwegian police website: https://www.politi.no/Kampanje_70.xhtml

(Posted in reply to skipt's now amended statement that no Muslims were killed, which demanded names.)
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 3, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
There have been suggestions that the killer targeted young people with non-Nordic features on Utøya.

I assume you mean "non-Caucasian" (or "non-white" in more plain English).
From the pictures I've seen, you can't really tell if someone is "Nordic" by looking at them, even though of course things like percentage of people with blond hair, height, etc. vary somewhat among countries.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 3, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
Time will tell what exactly happened, and some things may never be clear. There seem to have been a disproportionate number of persons from "visible minorities" killed on Utøya, and there have been suggestions that the killer was targeting them particularly. Their being both involved in the Labour Party and apparent beneficiaries of its supposedly lax immigration policies (based on skin colour and perhaps dress) might have been a motive. The evidence would be anything that survivors saw or heard, the actions of the murderer, and the actual results.

That said, the killer was anti-immigration and in particular anti-Islam. The details as to how he acted out his beliefs are less important - he killed a lot of Norwegian citizens.

Despite stereotypes, many in Nordic countries aren't tall, with blonde hair and blue eyes. A fair number are shorter, and have brown hair, and there's some admixture of persons with black hair and brown eyes. Anyone with beige, brown or black skin probably came to Norway (or the parents thereof came to Norway) since the 1970s, as there was little immigration, especially refugee resettlement, before the oil and gas money started to come in.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 4, 2011 - 12:26am PT
An interactive display, with photos of all the dead, and mini-biographies, in English.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/europe/Norway-Victims-Oslo-Utoya.html?ref=world
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Aug 4, 2011 - 06:08am PT
Fear and Loathing in Norway.
Chapter 2: The Weirdness


http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/03/westboro-baptists-to-picket-funerals/comment-page-1/

Westboro Baptists to ‘picket’ funerals

The Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church, known for their protests at the funerals of American soldiers killed in Iraq, has threatened to picket the burials of victims of the recent terrorist attacks in Norway.

A press release from the church, titled “Norway must repent or perish,” announces protests at the funerals “to warn the living: they died for your sins.” The message goes on to describe the perpetrator of the attacks, Anders Behring Breivik, as “formed” and “appointed” by God and “sent… to punish Norway,” adding that “Norway made being a fag legal in 1972, and passed laws for fags to marry and adopt children in 2008. Did you think God would wink at that in-your-face sin forever?.”

‘National policy to ridicule God’
A spokesperson for the Westboro Baptists, Steve Drain, confirmed to Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) that the church was planning to travel to Norway.

‘One of the worst ideas in the world’
A chief of staff with the Oslo police district, Johan Fredriksen, told NRK that “if they go through with what they are threatening, I can only certify that this is one of the worst ideas in the world at the moment.” Fredriksen went on to say that “normal thinking people do not think in such a way,” adding that he does not think “they deserve more attention.” While Fredriksen himself said he “had a problem with taking this seriously,” he nonetheless promised that the police would “manage to take care of it” if the threats were followed through. “These statements confirm that humans are the world’s most complicated construction, this is beyond any common sense and we have problems with relating to it,” Fredriksen concluded.






"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"
-HST



PS: thanks for the link Anders.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 4, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
Yes, I saw the article about the Westboro "christians", and decided to ignore it. All they want is publicity for their evil, and I see no reason to aid them.

Should they manage to get to Norway, they may be denied entry into the country - I'm sure that the FBI will happily provide Norwegian police with a list of names. And if they should somehow get to Norway, and find their way to a funeral, they may find that Norwegian laws and mores regarding freedom of speech (stupidity) are different than in the US. Most likely result is that they'd be arrested for causing a disturbance, jailed, and deported. Although as freedom of religion is constitutionally guaranteed in Norway, they won't be charged with satanism.

The news media is now looking at the police response to reports of the shootings, in particular helicopter use. Mostly second-guessing, as the enquiry will look at it in exhaustive detail. I haven't seen anything specific, but the suggestion is that the parliamentary commission will report within a year. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/ut%c3%b8ya-helicopter-response-scrutinized/
Rancidfish

Trad climber
Oslo, Norway
Aug 4, 2011 - 02:53pm PT


To quote a t-shirt i saw Jonny Copp wear on the film The Sharp End: Unf*#k the world






Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 5, 2011 - 01:23am PT
Velkommen! Du er nye her. Er du klatrer? Spiser du lutefisk? Kan du kanskje fortelle om Norge og Oslo nå, spesielt siden Utøya?
Rancidfish

Trad climber
Oslo, Norway
Aug 5, 2011 - 07:20am PT

Takk skal du ha.

Yes, I'm a climber. Mainly trad and i recently got into aid climbing.
Lutefisk, man that taste like sh#t. Almost as bad as rakfisk (rotten fish)

Norway is doin' alright, a lot of funerals this week tho. In the major newspapers there's pics form a new funeral almost every day. It also says in the paper today that the Norwegian Police will be getting help from the FBI. Because the US has something called "Passenger Name Records (PNR)" I think they're tryin' to figure out if he's part of a cell or have been working on his own.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 5, 2011 - 07:48am PT
Let the Westboro folks leave, then close the door. Don't let em back - terrorist organization. Norway won't let them in - let em go to Duibai. They can stay in Michael Jackson's old suite.

DMT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 5, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
Thanks, RF!

As of today, there have been funerals or memorials for 61 of the 77 dead. Most are attended by at least one high-ranking member of the government.

The ocean of flowers that was placed at many memorial locations, particularly downtown Oslo, is starting to be collected. Cards, books and related things are to be stored by the national archives - the sort of thing that might eventually be used in a permanent memorial.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/05/flowers-taken-in-as-dead-laid-to-rest/

The police have discovered the identity of a blogger who calls himself "fjordman", to whom the murderer repeatedly referred in his "manifesto". The blogger lives in Norway, had an extremist website until 2005, but claims never to have met the murderer, and has disavowed his actions. (THey had e-mail contact, and 'fjordman' continued to post to right-wing sites after ending his own.) The police continue to question him, and also the murderer, in particular with regard to links with other right-wing fanatics, in Norway and other countries.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/breivik-police-question-fjordman/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 9, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
Issues of racism and discrimination continue to be hotly debated in Norway in the aftermath to the Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings that the confessed perpetrator claims were an attack on the country’s multiculturalism.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/08/calls-to-tackle-racism-after-attacks/

There has also been considerable discussion of these issues in Canada since the murders. A higher proportion of Canadians are immigrants than almost any other developed country, although most are economic immigrants and family reunification rather than refugees such as in Norway. There are tensions, and concerns about assimilation and such, but a steadily growing economy can mask many things.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 9, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
Anders
Thanks for the great link to the Norwegian news in English.
This is a fine article explaining the Norwegian attitude towards "law and order" and the resilience of their society.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/28/foreigners-just-dont-get-norway/
I hope many people can learn from their strength of character.
jstan

climber
Aug 9, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
I searched on the article Skipt posted. It appeared in Front Page Mag at the link immediately below.

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/08/01/something-rotten-in-norway/

Images appearing with the article.

Credit: jstan

The next two photos were part of a series of changing graphics
Credit: jstan
Credit: jstan


Information on the author at the bottom of the piece.

About Daniel Greenfield
Daniel Greenfield, a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is a New York writer focusing on radical Islam. He is completing a book on the international challenges America faces in the 21st century.

Then I went to Canadafreepress, cf. link to get more bio
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/members/1/Greenfield/

First a graphic of the author:
Credit: jstan


Then a list of his most recent articles.




Most Recent Articles:
Next 65 Columns - >>

Civilization’s End - Aug 9, 2011

The Warrior’s Tale - Aug 8, 2011

Cannibals, Vampires and Terrorists—Oh My! - Aug 7, 2011

Government Amateurs vs Government Professionals - Aug 3, 2011

The Emperor of Debt is Naked - Aug 2, 2011

A Land Without History - Aug 1, 2011

Lynching Herman Cain - Jul 31, 2011

A Clash of Histories - Jul 28, 2011

A New Deal for America - Jul 27, 2011

Debunking 6 Myths About Anders Breivik - Jul 26, 2011

Anders Behring Breivik and the High Cost of Muslim Immigration - Jul 25, 2011

Every Man a Trillionaire - Jul 22, 2011

Edge of the Spending New Frontier - Jul 21, 2011

Outraged Protest Tours - The Tourism Package for Leftists Who Hate Israel - Jul 20, 2011

The End of Afghanistan - Jul 19, 2011

Is Obama Our Gorbachev? - Jul 18, 2011

No Red Lines for the Left - Jul 17, 2011

Sometimes the Bear Gets You - Jul 15, 2011

The Permanent Muslim Civil War - Jul 14, 2011

The Warsaw Ghetto with an Internet Cafe - Jul 13, 2011

Maskophobia, Murderphobia and Bombphobia - Jul 12, 2011

A Disparity in Power is Not a Disparity in Morals - Jul 11, 2011

Government of Sociopaths - Jul 10, 2011

Hell Has a New Resident and Mexico Has a New Hero - Jul 9, 2011

China’s Second Great Leap Forward - Jul 7, 2011

The Jewish Vote - Jul 6, 2011

The Last Refuge of Liberty - Jul 5, 2011

Why Do We Still Celebrate the 4th of July? - Jul 4, 2011

Cowboys vs Superheroes - Jul 3, 2011

Leave Me Alones vs Make It Betters - Jun 29, 2011

Mad Media and Jewish Dogs - Jun 29, 2011

Get Well, Hugo - Jun 28, 2011

The Progressive Reactionarism of the Postmodern Left - Jun 27, 2011

Good News From Libya - Jun 26, 2011

No Muslim Terrorism To See Here - Jun 25, 2011

A Long Walk Through New York - Jun 23, 2011

Technocracy Isn’t Policy - Jun 22, 2011

A Two State Solution for Turkey? - Jun 21, 2011

How Environmentalists Cause War and Repression - Jun 20, 2011

America in a Chinese Mirror - Jun 19, 2011

No Telling Where To Go Next - Jun 18, 2011

The Liberal Apocalypse - Jun 16, 2011

Never Again - Jun 15, 2011

Loughner and the Insane State - Jun 14, 2011

Redistributing Freedom to Tyranny - Jun 12, 2011

The “Muslims First” Foreign Policy - Jun 12, 2011

What Does It All Mean - Jun 11, 2011

Beer, Ham and Muslim Shoes - Jun 10, 2011

The Rise of the Post-American Empires - Jun 8, 2011

A River of Race Runs Through It - Jun 7, 2011

Scandal Nation - Jun 6, 2011

Sink To the Bottom With Me - Jun 5, 2011

Behind the Weinergate - Jun 4, 2011

Socialism’s Army of Occupation - Jun 2, 2011

The Great Error of Israeli Normalization - Jun 1, 2011

Immemorial - May 31, 2011

Will Islam Destroy Itself? - May 30, 2011

A Day at the Races - May 29, 2011

An Enemy We Dare Not Name - May 28, 2011

Failed State Colonization - The Greatest Threat of Our Time - May 26, 2011

Scarecrow Empires and Broken Alliances - May 25, 2011

How the Left Went Wrong on Islam - May 24, 2011

Three Cheers for Terroristine - May 23, 2011

End of the World - May 22, 2011

Peace In Our Weekend - May 20, 2011


Edit:

Please note the text on the Coulter graphic

"Be among the first......"

I think evolutionary psychologists should make a study of our right wing. It will show the value of and make the future of this new discipline.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 9, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
Thanks, John - this seems to pretty much confirm the hypothesis that Greenfield is little more than an incendiary extremist, peddling his particular brand of hate. Perhaps there's some truth to some of what he says, but it's so wrapped in his ideology and agenda as to be of little consequence. No doubt there are a few in Norway, and so many other countries, of similar views. Hopefully none of them will turn their fanatacism into action. One is too many.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 9, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
Norway police are not yet convinced that Breivik acted alone. There is some evidence that he was seen with what may be accomplices a few days prior and there are questions about how he planned to escape, possibly with assistance.
The search for anyone who knew about the plans or helped Breivik continues. Reports by newspaper Aftenposten suggest that Breivik was seen wearing a “NATO sweater” covered in police markings and with two other men, not thought to be locals, in a grocery store in Kragerø, Telemark, just days before he carried out the attacks. Car monitoring records seen by the newspaper suggest that none of the vehicles registered in Breivik’s names had been driven into Kragerø, suggesting he went there by other means.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/09/experts-and-hackers-aid-terror-police/
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 10, 2011 - 01:02am PT
Jstan,, Sounds like that guy is one those people paid by the right to produce that stuff. Like your link suggested.

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml
jstan

climber
Aug 10, 2011 - 01:41am PT
Could be John.

Credit for the link, however, is due HFCS. HFCS is kind of a weird character. There is no part of the internet he has not poked into. I think he was the one who clued Klimmer into the back of the moon thing.

:-)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 10, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
Guys like David Yerushalmi, Frank Gaffney, and Daniel Greenfield are driving forces behind the current wave of bigotry, hate, and racism directed at muslims in the US. They've been pushing a bogus 'anti-Sharia' agenda in state legislatures which amounts to this cycle's Willie Horton. 'Sharia', like 'immigration' is simply Rovian-speak for election-driven hate speech.
jstan

climber
Aug 10, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
"ABOUT THE SOVEREIGN
The Sovereign is a monthly tabloid newspaper featuring incendiary content about current events and life. Called "The World's Only Truth Newspaper", The Sovereign features the alternative news you won't read anywhere else."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 10, 2011 - 07:15pm PT


Could be John.

Credit for the link, however, is due HFCS. HFCS is kind of a weird character. There is no part of the internet he has not poked into. I think he was the one who clued Klimmer into the back of the moon thing.

:-)




I've learned nothing from HFCS, except exceptional patience.


I was onto the the Apollo 20 story when it first broke in April 2007. Cmd. William Rutledge ("retiredafb"), if he is real and the story has any truth to it did for mankind an amazing thing. Regardless of the truth of story regarding Apollo 20, the mothership exists. Many official images from Apollo 15 and Apollo 17 and others verify it. It's big. It's massive. And it's not ours.


The Norway tragedy is very sad. Stuff like this shouldn't happen to anyone. Violence and hate of any kind is unChristian. He who claims to be a Christian and hates and uses violence against another human being or creature of GOD is not a Christian.

All you have to ask is "What would Jesus do?"

Many atrocities are done in GOD's name but he has nothing to do with it. They scapegoat GOD and use his name erroneously.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 10, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
Klimmer, lets not take this thread in that direction. Jstan was just trying to give HFCS the credit for the link John and I talked about. Thats all.
jstan

climber
Aug 10, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
Both Klimmer and HFCS are interesting sorts. If anything I said was interpreted as being other than fun, I must very sincerely apologize. Sometimes things get so serious we need a bit of whimsy. My bad.

I figured what I said was so far off the wall it could not be taken seriously.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 11, 2011 - 02:29am PT
We return now to your regular programming, after something of a digression.

One interesting development is that Norwegian charities have noted considerably increased interest since 7/22, including more donations and members. One cause that has seen growth in donations has been famine relief for Somalia. A little light can overcome a lot of darkness.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/09/norwegians-more-giving-after-attacks/

However, there has been some news media criticism of the police response to the terrorist attacks. Response time and route, helicopter use and non-use, communications, etc. Whether there's anything to it remains to be seen, and the press do like to jump to conclusions. Also, the police may be the only relatively 'safe' subject to criticize.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/10/new-criticism-of-terror-response/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 11, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
The police response to criticism of their response:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/11/police-answer-terror-critics/

Again, it should all come out in the enquiry. This is likely just preliminary jostling.

(The "Views and News from Norway" website seems a credible English language source on events in that country, from their perspective. Aftenposten used to have an English summary of news on its website, but that was cancelled a few years ago. News from Norway tries to take its place, but also has other sources.)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 12, 2011 - 12:29pm PT
The independent commission to investigate and report on the events of 7/22 has now been appointed, and must report by August 10th, 2012. There are ten members - nine Norwegians, plus one member with policing experience from Denmark. The commission has its own budget and secretariat. As its work will be very public, one hopes the commission will be painstaking and thorough. It seems like a credible group with the right sort of qualifications - it seems that opposition parties were at least consulted with regard to the appointments, and terms of reference for the commission.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/12/22-july-attacks-commission-appointed/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 15, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
The murderer was recently taken to Utøya, to help the police reconstruct what happened. There were fears that it would turn into a news media/public spectacle, but that did not occur. The island has been under police authority since July 22nd, but will be returned to the youth wing of the Labour Party next week. (Norway has a somewhat different legal system, based IIRC in part on the Napoleonic code. The rights of defendants are if anything better protected in reality than say in the US, but defendants also have some obligation to co-operate with the police and courts.)
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/14/gunman-returns-to-his-crime-scene/

The official period of mourning ends on August 21st. There will be a memorial and concert at the Oslo Spektrum on that date, featuring amongst other things a reunion performance by the band A-ha, the only Norwegian group ever to have a #1 hit in the US, in 1985.

A statement from band members Magne Furuholmen, Paul Waaktaar-Savoy and Morten Harket read, “on July 22, we were, like everyone else in Norway and the rest of the world, shaken to our very core by the cruelty of the events and the terrible provocation against everything we stand for. We are at the same time very proud to belong to a small country where people, politicians and the royal household are united and show solidarity in encountering such a tragedy, and we are grateful to have been asked about participating in the memorial concert. We do this in order to honour those that have been taken away from us, to pay tribute to everyone that did, and is still doing, an awe-inspiring job, and in order to show our sympathy for those left behind that are now in mourning.”

The memorial will be broadcast live by state television NRK, I suspect also on its website - perhaps even with English subtitles (?).

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/12/a-ha-reunite-for-memorial-concert/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 19, 2011 - 02:34am PT
There is a documentary on the events of 22nd July, on the NRK (Norwegian state television) website. In Norwegian only, AFAIK - maybe it's been posted to YouTube with subtitles? It includes a fair amount of footage from the summer camp on Utøya, beforehand. http://www.nrk.no/nett-tv/klipp/774282/

There was a memorial event in Ballard (Seattle district, with lots of Scandinavians, and allegedly home of the largest syttende mai parade outside of Norway) on August 14th, called Alt for Norge ("Everything for Norway") - the motto of the immensely popular King Haakon VII.

Still haven't worked out if NRK will webcast the memorial on Sunday (4:00 AM PDT), outside Norway, or if so whether it would be subtitled in English.
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Aug 19, 2011 - 09:12am PT
optimism bleeds into despair
like the dawn colors upon an ink night sky.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:44am PT
Well, in this case it might be initial grief, despair and anger slowly blending into something more positive, at least on a national level. For the families of the dead and injured it may be another thing. But Norway as a whole made a clear choice soon after 22nd July, as to how it would react.

The bereaved, survivors, and families of survivors and the dead, have reacted strongly against criticism of the police for their response to the murders on Utøya. Some are calling on the news media and others to end their "witch hunt" and sensationalism, and even have a FaceBook site with over 15,000 followers.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/19/survivors-mourners-and-police-defend-terror-response/

The weekend's memorial ceremonies began today with a visit to the island by survivors, families, and dignitaries. The official period of mourning ends on Sunday. The last funeral for one of the 77 dead was today - it was delayed while the young women's sister recovered from her wounds. Lots more at:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/19/memorials-to-end-mourning-period/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
Sunday's memorial in Oslo was broadcast live on NRK. The recording is also on their website.
http://www.nrk.no/nett-tv/direkte/nrk1/

A report on the memorial ceremony and concert:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/norway-holds-memorial-service-for-massacre-victims/article2136402/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2136402
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 21, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
A fine photo essay about the tragedy:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/14/world/europe/20110814-NORWAY.html?ref=world#1

And another report on today's memorial:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/9808308
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 22, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
Credit: NRK
King Harald, speaking at the opening of the memorial yesterday. The ceremony was attended by the families of the dead and injured, police and emergency workers, the entire royal family, the Storting (parliament), the presidents and prime ministers of Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland, and many others. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/21/mourning-monarch-topped-memorial/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 22, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
Prime Minister Stoltenberg, making an equally well-received speech at the end of the memorial.
Credit: NRK
“Today we’re stopping time to remember the dead,” Stoltenberg said when the applause finally died down. “We do this as one nation. Together we won over hate. Together we embraced openness, tolerance and fellowship.”
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/21/heros-welcome-for-prime-minister/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
The Health Department has now released full details as to the dead and wounded. 77 died in the attacks, 69 at Utøya and eight in Oslo from the bomb. 159 were injured, and six continue to receive significant medical care. The remainder have been released, or are now in local rehabilitation facilities.

There were about 500 people on Utøya when the murderer arrived. Almost all of the 69 who died there did so from gunshot wounds.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/23/health-chief-updates-casualty-figures/

The murderer last appeared in court on Friday, and continues to be held incommunicado, in Norway's maximum security prison. He is only permitted contact with his lawyer, a minister, a doctor, and prison officials, and that will continue for another four weeks, at least. His complaint that being held in isolation amounts to torture fell on deaf ears.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
One of the goals of the murderer was to cripple the Labour Party, which for much of the last 80 years has formed the government of Norway, or led coalition governments.

Since July 22nd, membership in the Labour Party has risen by nearly 8,000 members, or about 15%. Many of the new members are actively involved in the party, and haven't just joined out of sympathy.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/11/01/labour-party-membership-soars/
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 2, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
One glint of good news out of the tragedy.
Was remembering this horrorshow just the other day.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 16, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
The murderer had his first public court appearance yesterday. A number of survivors of his attack were present in court. He started to rant about his fantasies, but was cut off several times by the judge. He was heavily guarded, and continues to be held in high-security, with little contact with the world.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/11/15/breiviks-altered-sense-of-reality/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 16, 2011 - 08:43pm PT
It's always a gud ploy to rant in court if you're looking for a lighter sentence, ikke sant?
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Nov 29, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
Looks like he will spend the rest of his life in a sanitarium:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/29/world/europe/norway-terror-suspect/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
I'm not sure what to make of this. Hopefully it will all come out in the trial. I assumed that he would be declared insane in part to discredit his ideas and actions. I of course have no training in psychology, nor do I have experience with schizophrenics.

Aside from his ideology and his right wing extremist politics, which we are rightfully disturbed with, he appears to be an inordinately resourceful and focused individual. I know many people without a fraction of the focus this guy has. I've read several parts of his manifesto: it's lucid and he makes his points. He has commentary on many things including interpersonal relationships, family, religions, etc. and lives a sort of double life writing about his need to keep his ideas and plans secret so as not to get arrested. He deceives those around him but more as a security measure or to prevent their getting into trouble, and also to avoid conflicts such as disagreeable political arguments with people he wants to maintain friendships with. That doesn't seem schizto and could apply to anyone cheating on his or her spouse. His preparation for his massacre was fastidiously researched.


The article above claims he believes he was 'chosen' to decide who lives or dies.

I think of all the religious people I know, who inform me they know that they are saved and will have eternal life while they know others are damned; been instructed to do things by higher powers, or who believe they have been chosen to 'save' people from eternal damnation': others who claim to be immortal and will be reincarnated. OTOH, perhaps they too are insane. But many people find that their faith falters when really put to the test, whereas this guy really believed and put his beliefs to the ultimate test. From what I read, people that knew him didn't seem to think he stood out as a whack job.

Maybe we'll never get the whole story.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
What else would you expect in a liberal, broken society. This is not justice.

Justice would be life in PRISON, maybe with limited access, or the death penalty.

He's a dangerous mind. It cannot be cured in my opinion.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 29, 2011 - 09:27pm PT
It may make little practical difference. The murderer will either spend the rest of his life, or most of it, in a maximum security prison, or in a maximum security insane asylum.

bluering, you seem threatened by the idea that there are not only societies and countries that make different choices than the US, but that some of their choices may be better. Norway is hardly 'broken', by any rational measure - and the actions of one sociopath, whether or not he's clinically insane, don't prove otherwise. By virtually all measures, Norway is doing very well, often better than the US. And it has for the last 80 years usually had liberal democratic governments. Much of its material wealth relates to the oil and gas developed since the mid 1970s, but not all, and its cultural values and behaviours long predate that. Why does that both you so much?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 29, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
What else would you expect in a liberal, broken society. This is not justice.

And yet, they have significantly less crime than anywhere in the country you call home. Curious ....don't you think Bluie?

How do you explain that?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
Riley, have you read that guy's manifesto?


Even though we all disagree with his ideology, he has a worldview and he has thought it through pretty rigorously, researched it (including historically), more so than most people. Due to the condition he perceives things in, the progression of affairs, the power of the state, and difficulty in making any change, he believes a revolution is necessary. He believes it needs a role model so he steps up to the plate. He views himself as an early precursor to a civil war which will engulf Eurasia.

I'm in no way validating his actions or his ideas, and what he did was reprehensible. From his extensive writing and journals, and cursory interviews of the people that knew him, it just doesn't add up to stark raving lunatic. Rather, it reads like a man on a mission, and a man with exceptional reserves of determination, motivation, reflection, self reliance, and action. A very unusual mixture manifested in one individual. But certifiably insane?

That guy from Arizona seems to be cut from a different cloth and looks to be a classic bottled in bond nutcase.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 29, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Bluering,

He IS in prison. There is a very good reason the psycho murderers are separated from the reasonable murderers.

They are beyond reason.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 29, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
The diagnosis is apparently paranoid schizophrenia. The murderer objects.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/11/29/breivik-offended-by-insanity-claim/
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/11/29/breivik-declared-criminally-insane/

The trial will still proceed in April. The psychiatrists' report (commissioned by the court) goes to a forensic medical commission, and is then presented at the start of the trial, essentially to determine if the accused is fit to stand trial. The courts rarely do other than what such reports recommend.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
Jim, the thing that is striking is that guy appears reasonable in his writings, no matter how far out they are. It's reasonable but ideologically far right and militant. Unpopular, rare, but not 'unreasonable'.

Plenty of state regimes have operated with similar MOs.
nature

climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:05pm PT
related in a way (not directly):

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2016889346_halman30.html

Huizinga said Jason Halman will be held under psychiatric evaluation two more months and might remain that way rather than face prison time. Huizinga said Jason has been told of his brother's death, but recently asked when he'd be able to visit him.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
MH, from your source:
"Breivik was once again being questioned by police Tuesday evening, after being given his insanity diagnosis. Court-appointed psychiatrists have determined, after 36 hours of interviewing Breivik this fall, that he is delusional and believes he’s a knight on a mission to wage war against those who allow multi-cultural societies.


Breivik, who also was said to have had a difficult childhood, was determined to completely lack feelings of human empathy and is unable to understand the perspective his victims and society have on his attacks."


I call BS on this.
In his manifesto he wrote how others would not understand his mission and how they would view him as a monster. He himself admitted that what he was going to do was a terrible thing; he wrote he didn't enjoy having to do it, and did not look forward to it. ... but he believed he had to do it nonetheless. He completely understood the societal ramifications. He also wrote of his love for the people in is life that he was close to and also wanting to protect them from being affiliated with his crime so having to distance himself from them in large part for their safety. From what I remember reading, he believed life was good and worth living, but that some things were worth making a sacrifice for. He didn't appear suicidal because he surrendered: all he had to do was point his gun or charge the police when they had him in their gunsights and he would have suicided himself. He didn't, he wanted to live. He also wrote about reflecting long on about those sort of decisions.



It just seems incredibly fishy to me.
I had an inclination this is what the state would do. I think whatever else he is or may be, Brievik has a very strong mind and very strong will. My sense is they really want to just melt his brain with drugs.


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
The murderer's having been diagnosed as insane does essentially mean that he won't have an opportunity at his trial to spout his beliefs and theories. There'll be a relatively short hearing, and he'll be put away for life. He may eventually have contact with the outside world at whatever institution he's put in, and will no doubt remain an object of macabre fascination, but won't have a bully pulpit for his ranting.

The Norwegian definition of criminally insane, and its application, may differ from that of other countries.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
The problem with leftist-type societies like this is that they discourage their own heritage and faith in favor of diversity, mostly for the sake of apparent political correctness and it makes them feel superior.

This dude, while wrong to take the actions he did, resented that and fought back against what he perceived to be an immigrant degradation of his culture and country.

Be careful before you equate my nationalism to his. He acted wrong and did the exact thing he was fighting against. Pretty illogical. Maybe crazy.

My bottom line is that in their quest to be diverse and multi-cultual, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Holland, and several other Euro countries have allowed immigrants into their countries in large quantities who have no desire to assimilate. In fact, many come to integrate their backwards ideals.

I would agree with those who dislike this. It does happen here too. South of the border types and those who leave Michigan and Minnesota to go back and fight Jihad in Somalia, Pakistan, and elsewhere.

This dude in Norway should be treated the same way as a radical terrorist. He should be put down like a rabid dog, or confined forever with no external contact. You gave up your right to talk to others freely or interact with them.

some recent stories;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8917675/Christian-worker-loses-her-job-after-being-targeted-by-Islamic-extremists.html

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2011/11/brussels-jewish-girl-attacked-by.html
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:22pm PT
Lovesgas,

I think this little piece of creation is a good example of someone being reasoned doesn't pass the test of being logical.

Nazi Punks F*#k Off as the old song goes.
Dr. F.

climber
Retired Climber, SoCal
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
Maybe we should Water Board him first
Just for torture's sake
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
Blueski,

The same comfortable vitriol was aimed at the wave of Italian immigrants to the USA as well as Canada. Were the people consumed by hate really identifying with one political stripe or another, or just bigots with a fear of "the other"?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
MH,
I don't think he needs the bully pulpit.
He wrote that manifesto and was certain to bring it up to polish, then disseminate it, before he acted. It contains his version of his legacy and is now an historical document.

I can understand the Norwegian government not wanting him to be granted a platform in the courtroom. And true, I do not know Norwegian insanity laws nor am I a psychologist.

But in order for Norway to prevail against him, they should grant him a fair trial, even if that means he gets to speak out. Then Norwegian justice can follow its course as an example of that against which Brievik assaulted. But if they just railroad him into insanity, even though it may be a popular fate for him, it strikes me as a mistake.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
The same comfortable vitriol was aimed at the wave of Italian immigrants to the USA as well as Canada. Were the people consumed by hate really identifying with one political stripe or another, or just bigots with a fear of "the other"?


No, it was different. Italians (and other immigrants) had to undergo careful screenings, swear alliegiance to America, and assimilate into our culture. They did so willfullfuly. The sick ones were quaraninied and cured or sent back.

There is where Fatty's clash makes sense. Now, we do not do that. In fact, we have quotas that dictate we have to allow certain quantities from certain countries for the sake of diversity. That is insane!

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
Sorry loves gas,

But all reasonable societies draw censure towards obvious garbage. there is justifiably no interest in entertaining the psychotic avenues of though of a lot of people, let alone the influence of a Right wing fascist mental case.

And Steve, do cohesive VS antagonistic societies necessarily have a leg up on producing idiots ?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
Jim,
Have you read his writings?
He has an extreme ideology, no argument.
But he also fortifies it with historical precedent, in large part with Christian culture, the Crusades, and the wars fought with somewhat similar ideology that is in the DNA of, and which has shaped, modern Europe.


He sees himself as a freedom fighter, in the lineage of the literal Christian crusader. It's infused with the history of militant Christianity which has a long and deep history, state sanctioned. It is heavy duty stuff for sure. I disagree with him*, but he doesn't strike me as illogical or unreasonable, but rather as 100% committed to his cause, making no excuses, and unrepentant. It is this latter part that makes him such a threat.


*Proviso: I have very little historical study of the crusades and early European Christian history.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:42pm PT
War, easy now- heritage and faith are the only way we can get back to the Middle Ages. We have to hurry, the Rapture is just around the corner.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
And Steve, do cohesive VS antagonistic societies necessarily have a leg up on producing idiots ?


Not necessarily, but antagonistic ones I'd guess have a higher tendency to produce 'idiots'. You need to define what you mean by that.

For example, would there be less animosity or 'idiocy' if immigrants assimilated to the country they chose to immigrate to? Or less?

There will always be ethnic tensions among different groups, but sometimes they're not violent in cultures that assimilate well. A common bond is there, as evidenced by the limies, grease-balls, kikes, and chiners coming to the USA.

It just seems like the Islamic immigrants are much more violent and outspoken against the native cultures, much more insistat on pushing their culture on us, instead of accepting our culture.

Of course this is worse in Europe than here.



It is heavy duty stuff for sure. I disagree with him*, but he doesn't strike me as illogical or unreasonable, but rather as 100% committed to his cause, making no excuses, and unrepentant. It is this latter part that makes him such a threat.

This is why Geert Wilders is gaining popularity in Northern Europe. He fights it the right way. Through legislation and intelligence. Not violence.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
Loves gas,

Reason is a slippery thing. Personally, I've had my mind changed by the weight of logic, though it required a kicking and screaming acceptance.

It's reasonable to accept the grievances of the past and plead for redress but it's not logical because of all the vectors of change and the disingenuous nature of holding a grudge.

(the other side were just as shot through during the "discourse".)
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
Jim,
This stuff isn't cut and dry.
You'd have to read his writings and then make that call. Until then, you are speculating on how he put his ideas together.

As a 'mutliculturalist', wouldn't it make sense for you to accept the existence of different cultural traditions?

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
lg: In most countries, the first step in a criminal trial (once jurisdiction is established) is to determine whether or not the accused is fit to stand trial. That is, whether or not the person is sane, understands what is happening, and is able to instruct counsel. Certainly in Canada and Norway, I think in the US and most other countries with the rule of law. So the psychologists' report more or less has the effect of denying the murderer a pulpit, but that's not the choice of the government. The judge decides.

You can be reasonably sure that if there's any problem with the diagnosis of insanity, it will be raised.

br: My bottom line is that in their quest to be diverse and multi-cultual, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Holland, and several other Euro countries have allowed immigrants into their countries in large quantities who have no desire to assimilate.

Norway is a much more homogenous society and culture than the USA. A much higher proportion of US residents were born elsewhere than those of Norway. And, partly because the US has 70 times the population of Norway, there are a lot more immigrants in the US who refuse to assimilate, or even reject the values of their adopted home. We have the same problem in Canada, also a land of immigrants. Some Afghans who immgrated to Canada, and then murdered family members in so-called "honour" killings, are currently on trial, and the latest exhibit A for the anti-immigration crowd. All of whose ancestors were immigrants.

There are enclaves of immigrants in Canada and the US (Amish, Mennonite, orthodox Jews...) who've never assimilated. As long as they render unto Caesar, and don't cause problems, so what?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
Norway is a much more homogenous society and culture than the USA. A much higher proportion of US residents were born elsewhere than those of Norway.

Since when? Historically? I doubt it!

Probably the last 30 years. If that.


As long as they render unto Caesar, and don't cause problems, so what?


Ah! The crux.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
Lets talk about being social.

This doesn't require an individual to become SOCIALIST, but more like what goes on day in, day out between all the suffering humans from all levels of insight.

This could be reasonable and logical if deference to the other's opinion wasn't accepted outright but still respected as long as there was barbeque, and Summer shirts on. The other people generally would be ... alright.

And vice versa.

This skinhead Nazi piece of sh#t who shot up a bunch of kids at Summer camp is a complete departure from the incredible diversity we enjoy in being citizens of a country and a planet at the same time.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
Jim,
He's anti-Nazi and anti-skinhead, these are another issues he writes about.
You'd have to read his manifesto to grasp his perspective. Regarding understanding who this guy is, one has to make the distinction that analysis is not legitimacy.

OTOH:
What about James Brown?
What about the US Civil War?
French Resistance in WWII?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
Excitable States: While immigration has increased drastically over the last century, the foreign born share of the population was still higher in 1900 (about 20%) than it is today (about 10%).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

(Some, such as bluering, might advocate adding to that number the children of such immigrants, maybe their grandchildren and greatgrandchildren. Some just never assimilate, eh?)

Canuckleheads: The 2006 Census enumerated 6,186,950 individuals who were born outside of Canada. They represented one in five (19.8%) of the total population. This is the highest proportion of foreign-born population in 75 years.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/rt-td/immcit-eng.cfm

Norway: The number of immigrants in Norway is currently approximately 601,000, which corresponds to 12.2 percent of the total population (2011).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Norway

Of course, a lot of immigration, e.g. from the USA to Canada, or from Sweden to Norway, is hardly noticeable.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
This skinhead Nazi piece of sh#t who shot up a bunch of kids at Summer camp is a complete departure from the incredible diversity we enjoy in being citizens of a country and a planet at the same time.

This is the distinctiontion I was making between his tactics and mine. I feel mostly the same way as this murderer. But I do not pull triggers over the subject. I try to affect change through legislation and political means, not personally, or violently.

Dude was a murderer. I just want a country full of America-loving patriots. Muslim or not.

The man is incorregible. He can never be allowed in public again, or to transfer his hate otherwise.

(Some, such as bluering, might advocate adding to that number the children of such immigrants, maybe their grandchildren and greatgranchildren. Some just never assimilate, eh?)

I think there may be a valid arguement there. You know me well.

I'd attribute it to more radical Imams stiring up sh#t as newer immigrants from war-areas who weren't properly screened. Sh#t-disturbers. We have them here too. Bill Ayers.
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
I just want a country full of America-loving patriots. Muslim or not.

Just an honest question: to what end?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
This guys not an immigrant Blurring.

Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
Bluering:
This is the distinctiontion I was making between his tactics and mine. I feel mostly the same way as this murderer. But I do not pull triggers over the subject. I try to affect change through legislation and political means, not personally, or violently.


Are you so sure you feel the same way as he? Have you read his manifesto?
He thinks democracy is part of the problem and that it is too late for democracy to reverse things.


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
You're right Loves gas, I am freely exposed as someone who had no time for this individual's "manifesto". (f*#k, I hate that word because it infers intelligent resonance to anyone staking a claim to those who don't but want to live the romance)

Anyone who thinks a bunch of teenagers playing volleyball in the Summer Sun were suitable, despicable target for a politically motivated son of a bitch who had only himself to answer to when looking in the mirror every morning should think harder...

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
Just an honest question: to what end?


A country that functions again within it's means, with no ethnic hatred. Animosity is o.k., you're never gonna kill that, just less hatred.

Anyone who thinks a bunch of teenagers playing volleyball in the Summer Sun were suitable, despicable target for a politically motivated son of a bitch who had only himself to answer to when looking in the mirror every morning should think harder...

Gotta agree with Jimmy here. There's no excuse. None, for targeting and slaughtering kids intentionally. Illogical and crazy.

Still doesn't mean a bullet wouldn't serve justice. Just one from a firing squad...

Sorry to be so grim. I am tired of sympythy for murderers. And I'm a Jesus-loving man, just seen too much injustice go free.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
Jim,
I'll repeat it in case you didn't read it he first go round:

Analysis is not legitimization.


You'd have to read his manifesto. Otherwise, there's no point in discussing it, as you are going to fall back onto stereotypes that do not define Breivik or his motives, but rather something else entirely.

I did not find his manifesto to be drivel. I thought it was a lucid exegesis of a particular ideology.

In the context of his beliefs, and his militarism, his actions are consistent and make perfect sense. He identifies himself with a crusader. Crusader's killed.



I'll leave it at that.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
I did not find his manifesto to be drivel. I thought it was a lucid exegesis of a particular ideology.


All the more reason to terminate his evil mind....
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:53pm PT
Killing his mind doesn't alter anything Bluering, his ideas are already out there and a part of history.

He also wrote what he felt the state would have to do to him.

No matter, his personal fate is sealed one way or the other. Although, if they do not zap his mind, there exists the possibility that he could one day be released from prison. He believes the revolution he planned will occur years from now and he may eventually be released from prison when a new regime takes power.


Gotta agree with Jimmy here. There's no excuse. None, for targeting and slaughtering kids intentionally. Illogical and crazy.

Bluering, hadn't you been following his motives in the news? The killings were not just the killing of any kids. They were carefully planned assassinations to stop political succession. In the manner in which a prince is killed. And as PR for his ideas.

We are going over old ground.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
Of course you did Gas !

It was reasonable and hinted as logic.

Reason, logic, all great portals to understanding. The unhappy premise in rectifying all the promise of premise is reality.

The reality is this man was so full of righteous indignity that he felt it was reasonable to kill children to make a point about thought to the children's politically directed parents as it applied to their kids going to camp.

I think the politics were washed away by the tears of having their children murdered and replaced with sorrow.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 30, 2011 - 12:08am PT
No, he saw the kids as the elite youth with specialized political indoctrination, unique political potential, special political opportunity, and groomed for political leadership: the fruit of the future leadership of Norway.


Yes, it's a horrible thing to contemplate.



Look what we did to Saddam's sons.
It's nothing new. You see this sort of thing all throughout recorded history, extinguishing royal bloodlines. Breivik, in a modern democracy, added a terrible twist.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 30, 2011 - 12:11am PT
They were carefully planned assassinations to stop political succession. In the manner in which a prince is killed. And as PR for his ideas.

We are going over old ground.


This makes it o.k.? If I disagree with brainwashed commies who indoctrinate their kids, I can kill them?

No! You "re-educate", or whatever you wanna call it. You "deprogram" them. You have no right to kill them.

I hate to use Soviet terms in this case. But many kids are raised with odd belief systems, including Christians.

Bottom line. YOU CAN'T KILL THEM!!!! Maybe jail the parents though...


Look what we did to Saddam's sons.


No comparison at all, dude! His son's were fully reponsible adult assasins. They were evil boys who died in a firefight. May they rot in hell.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 30, 2011 - 12:12am PT
I gotta say this is too theoretical for my spirit.

Adults are able and willing to make choices that have consequential gravity.

Why are you trying to conceptualize the reason behind a psychopath's mass murder of kids who were having fun ?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 30, 2011 - 12:16am PT
Jim,
I'm not 'conceptualizing' reasons here. Nor is any conceptualization needed.

Facts:
It was a crime.
There was a motive.
The motive was crystal clear and was carefully elaborated beforehand.
The motive is maintained and confirmed after the crime.


The other option is to reject all that and just say he's crazy and call it good.

Sorry,that serves nobody, least of all the victims.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 30, 2011 - 12:27am PT
I think I know what's going on here.

LG, is a gov't or liberal troll (who's also prominant in the OWS thread) who is trying to draw out right-wing extremists who would espouse violence.

Nice try.

Most right-wingers are peaceful people who want to be left alone! Look to your bankers, politicians, and lobbyists for crooks before you look here!

We want to be left alone!!!!! F*#k off!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 30, 2011 - 12:34am PT
Could you please explain that nonsense in context to this thread War ?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 30, 2011 - 12:38am PT
Bluering: your'e delusional. Take a breath.


I'm not trying to provoke anyone. I'm trying to analyse.
It appears that the topic, and the attendant wound, is too fresh for many people to handle reasonably, without becoming emotionally overwrought and confrontational.


There is a political ideology behind the crimes and which motivated the crimes. Fact.

It is not Nazism. Fact.

It's not skinheads. Fact.

It's not a random act of violence. Fact.


Edit:
His manifesto is interesting reading, but is not for everyone. He writes about the inception of a sort of jihad, a crusade, but a Western European crusade to reverse what he calls Marxist mutliculturalism. He also designates what he calls 'suicidal humanists' as those who are unwittingly and complacently abetting the destruction of western European Christian culture. At this stage he believes violence is the only means to alter things as he claims that the universities, the media, advertising, government, etc. have been too embedded with these ideologues to reverse themselves and practitioners risk ostracism and loss of career if they express views contrary to multiculturalism/Marxism. Therefor he has no hope for democracy to initiate the social/political change, but rather through violent revolution, which he believes will take decades but needs to start somewhere. He has a list of various critical targets in order of importance. He will start it with an over the top action that will stand as an historic example for future crusaders. It's more complex than that, but that's the nutshell. It's a radical right wing militant revolutionary ideology.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 30, 2011 - 12:45am PT
There is a political ideology behind the crimes and which motivated the crimes. Fact.

Yeah, and it's Washington, not a party.

This is is why I'm on the Cain-Train. He's an a-political conservative. Newt, Obama, Barney Frank, and even Romney are fools for the parties.

Cain ain't. And that's why they smear him. He represents us first, party second. He's a good guy. All the smears are obvious bullsh#t.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 30, 2011 - 12:51am PT
Sorry Loves Gas,

But this guy put the spotlight on the muscle behind the ideology. His crowd are not the true believers but the defenders of purity.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 30, 2011 - 01:01am PT
LG, I know all about nationalism, NAZI-ism, Islamic radicalism, anti-semitism, and whie-supremeicy. I prolly know more than you on several of those topics, I follow this sh#t. I'm a right-wing Christian.

That said, you have to be open to others who may have more perspective on these issues, and all the issues involved. Wheather it's Jew-bashing or Arab-hate!

After watching all this crap, I tend to agree with you. There seems to be a free-for-all on Jew/Christian hatin'.

What do I do? What I've always done....talk about it. ANd if some people don't like it, they can f*#k off!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 30, 2011 - 01:05am PT
As for your edit Loves gas,

What he has said is completely in line with the National Socialist Party. The short version of that name is Nazi.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 30, 2011 - 01:20am PT
No Jim you are wrong.
Dead wrong.

He writes at length about Nazism and Jews. He is not anti-Semitic and he opposes Nazism.

You have chosen to stick your head in the sand thus you are ignorant and must feed off popular stereotypes. It is not an intellectual's approach to understanding what occurred.

I'll leave it at that. The facts are there if you wish to find them.


Bluering, you seem to have a fair bit in common with Breivik in ends, if not in means to the ends. He proclaims to dislike violence but doesn't see any other option to 'salvage' the remnants of Christian Western European culture (he's not concerned with what goes on elsewhere). Perhaps he is more realistic then you are: you will never get the sort of Christian nation you seek through Democratic means. It's a pipe dream. Recognize it as such. I'm not seeking to be offensive, provocative, or insulting, but merely realistic.

Breivik's dream is also a pipe dream. But it is to some small degree more realistic than yours.

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 30, 2011 - 01:54am PT
Loves gas,

Read up on the ideals of National Socialism as defined by Adolph Hitler. Our boy in Norway was a Nazi.

ps. and insane.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Nov 30, 2011 - 02:07am PT
Jim,
I've read Mein Kampf and plenty of other material on Nazism.

My father has Nazi bullet holes in his back from escaping the cattle cars, his family and most of his relatives were butchered, and he survived Buchenwald.

Read Breivik.
He's no Nazi.


Breivik is the product of something else entirely and a different ideology. He is the most notable example of it.

There's a kind of willed ignorance out there as regards events in Norway.

You can remain adamantly stubborn and ignorant, or become informed.
No matter.



PS: were all the Nazis and/or all the Schutzstaffel insane?
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Nov 30, 2011 - 03:00am PT
Blue, you write
That said, you have to be open to others who may have more perspective on these issues, and all the issues involved.

And then you write
What do I do? What I've always done....talk about it. ANd if some people don't like it, they can f*#k off!

That doesn't exactly strike me as someone being open to other's perspectives.But then, maybe I'm somehow reading this wrong?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 30, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
Full post from Slaton's post above;

LG, I know all about nationalism, NAZI-ism, Islamic radicalism, anti-semitism, and whie-supremeicy. I prolly know more than you on several of those topics, I follow this sh#t. I'm a right-wing Christian.

That said, you have to be open to others who may have more perspective on these issues, and all the issues involved. Wheather it's Jew-bashing or Arab-hate!

After watching all this crap, I tend to agree with you. There seems to be a free-for-all on Jew/Christian hatin'.

What do I do? What I've always done....talk about it. ANd if some people don't like it, they can f*#k off!

Slayton, please keep my posts in context.

If someone does not want to talk about differences or why they hate, then yeah, they can go f*#k themselves. I'd rather not resort to throat-cutting or shooting.

But if someone wants to try to understand different points of view before dismissing them, I'll talk. I may disagree in the end, but I'll dialogue about it.
Dr. F.

climber
Retired Climber, SoCal
Nov 30, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
What would a Right Winger do?

Inflict the worst possible punishment possible, disregarding all LAWS and ethical responsibilities of a civilised society.

It makes them happy to inflict pain and torture as revenge.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 30, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
This guy is mentally ill, too:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-1130-salon-shooting-20111130,0,4443791.story

He also killed a bunch of people, but because he did it in California, he's not going to a *hospital*. He's going to get the death penalty.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 30, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
Dr. F,

I am reasonably left of center politically as it applies to the idealism of sharing with the unfortunate. But I do have a brain that can entertain reasoned thinking from the other street. This doesn't equal acceptance of any merry obfuscation from anyone.

If you really think the leftists only hold sweetness and light in their hearts and just want a better world for all, you need to stop thinking the world is easily divided into football teams.

The murderer of these children is a conservative reactionary who thought it was a good idea to kill the children of perceived leftists who were bent on changing the COMPLECTION of a society.

Does this sound familiar, Lovesgasoline ? (by the way, a "manifesto" is generally a rant with heels and lipstick. Exuberantly romantic and thinky )

Back to the Left - Right thing.

There's lots of arbitrarily dead people who used their right to free speech. "As long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it" goes the old song.

Some leftist were apalled at the ingratitude of their subjects and this is why the good stuff always gets left undone by the thin skinned, butthurt who think they are taking the moral high ground.
Dr. F.

climber
Retired Climber, SoCal
Nov 30, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
I was just elaborating on Bluering responses
He is the one that is not happy that the punishment is not severe enough, True?

I was not making a blanket statement for all conservatives

I favor the laws that are in place
If they mean a life in the Ritz, so be it
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 30, 2011 - 10:59pm PT
Life is indeed held cheap

When the price demanded for taking them is

"reasonable".
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 1, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
There now seems to some doubt as to whether the psychiatric hospital where the murderer is likely to end up is secure enough. However, given that the hearing/trial won't be until April, they'll no doubt figure it out by then. About 90% of Norwegians want him imprisoned for his natural life, no possibility of release.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/12/01/psychiatric-unit-has-history-of-escapes/
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/11/30/must-have-faith-in-the-legal-system/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
Anybody who guns down 77 innocent, unarmed people is a murderer. Technically a mass-murderer.

I don't give a f*#k why he did it as long as he's prosecuted as such. Sure he's crazy as a secondary fact legally, but he's a F*#KING MASS-MURDERER PRIMARILY!!! I don't need to hear why he's sick. Try to explain to 77 families why this son of a bitch should live one more day. Could you do that?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Dec 2, 2011 - 03:09am PT
Jim wrote:
Loves gas,

Read up on the ideals of National Socialism as defined by Adolph Hitler. Our boy in Norway was a Nazi.






Above you will see the emblem designed by Breivik for his 'Justicular Knights' .
Note carefully that the imagery is a sword thrust through a skull emblazoned with the crescent & star of Islam, the hammer and sickle of Communism, and the swastika of Nazism.

These are his three ideological enemies: Islam, Communism/Marxism, Nazism.

Jim, the world is chock full of militant extremists, you can’t just lump them all together. They have vastly different ideologies, agendas, goals, and enemies. To understand the threat each poses, it's necessary to understand precisely what the ideology is.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Dec 2, 2011 - 03:43am PT
In my opinion they will never let him stand at trial and speak under any circumstances, therefore they have to declare him insane, whether he is or not. I think he's dangerous, a fanatic believer, and a martyr, but not insane.

His 'compendium' (his term: I call it a manifesto but he never uses that term: he titled it '2083 A European Declaration of Independence' ) has an entire section regarding his future court appearance, including an opening statement and the full prepared text of a proposed closing statement. He writes clearly that he has no intent whatsoever to win the trial and intends to use the trail as a platform to gain sympathizers and build recruitment. The opening statement includes many harsh demands, including demanding immediate control of the government by patriots. He writes that he understands he'll be ridiculed but will proceed regardless.
From his compendium:

"To the jury and/or members of the court; I am standing here today as a Justiciar Knight Commander of the PCCTS, Knights Templar, a pan-European organisation which is a part of the patriotic National Resistance Movements in all Western European countries. I represent the highest national military and political authority considering the fact that we are the only military force in this country that represents the free patriotic people, as we are not on the pay roll of the category A and B traitors that you refer to as your superiors. When I speak, I speak on behalf of millions of Europeans who does not want to see their culture and territorial rights taken from them, who does not want to live under current or future dhimmitude and who does not accept that their own leaders are selling them against their will to Islamic slavery.

The current multiculturalist regimes of Western Europe are not at all democratic, this country is not democratic. They haven‘t been democratic since the 1950s..."


He goes on to describe how the court and state institutions are traitors, in great detail.
It's my opinion they will never let this guy have a fair trial. I would be very surprised if they do.
And I think that that's a mistake, because it's the very thing that Breivik criticizes and in some way it will legitimize him. If the democracy is strong, they should grant him a fair trial, let him put on his defense, then throw the book at him based on his plea, the evidence, and the law.
QITNL

climber
Dec 2, 2011 - 05:37am PT
What a depressing thread. I hate all of you so-called people. And I hope you know that.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 2, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
lg: They will first give him a fair hearing as to whether or not he's insance, in the legal meaning of the word. Apparently there is talk of allowing him to be examined by non-Norwegian psychologists, if he truly wants to argue that he's not insance.

He will have at least something of platform in that there will be a hearing on his mental fitness and capacity. How much use he'll make of it is another matter - courts everywhere tend to squelch such behaviour.

If he's found fit to stand trial, then he may have other opportunities to spew.

We can argue all day about whether it's "just" for him to be treated in this way, but it won't change what has happened or will happen.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
How fit does he really need to be?

All he has to do to stand trial is sit in the courtroom and keep his mouth shut.
Dr. F.

climber
Retired Climber, SoCal
Dec 2, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
These are his three ideological enemies: Islam, Communism/Marxism, Nazism.

Thats Bluering's Religion!!!
But Bluering is a Nazi, so it doesn't make sense
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 22, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
An independent review commission has confirmed the court-appointed psychiatrists' opinion that the murderer is criminally insane. It sounds like the seven-person committee wasn't unanimous in its report, and that some members wanted a second examination to be conducted.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/12/22/commission-upholds-insanity-claim/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 12, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
The debate about whether the murderer was legally insane continues:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/01/12/debate-over-breiviks-fate-wont-cease/

Perhaps somewhat academic - either way he'll never be released.
cowpoke

climber
Jun 21, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
announced today that prosecution will go with legally insane (or more directly "lack of accountability"). haven't seen English-language press covering it yet, but: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/22juli/Derfor-mener-de-Breivik-er-utilregnelig--6855573.html#.T-NI51L5Dwk

either way he'll never be released.
In Oslo today, that is not a universally believed assumption.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 21, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
Here's a summary, in English: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/06/21/prosecutors-want-breivik-committed/

The prosecution argued in closing yesterday that there was enough doubt about the murderer's mental health that he should be committed to psychiatric treatment. It's now up to the court to decide if it will be that, or jail with a 21 year sentence, plus (likely) the equivalent of a "dangerous offender" declaration, which would make it unlikely he'd ever be released.

If/when he's finished his sentence, or been successfully treated, a court would have to consider whether he should be released. Possibly decades from now, who can say for sure?
juar

Sport climber
socal
Jun 21, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
BACK to the battlefield?!?!?

90% of those held were entirely uninvolved. simply people who got abducted cuz we were paying for heads.

WE introduced a battlefield to their regular lives
WE instigated the hostilities
WE are the aggressor

this guys manifesto was littered with the bullshit people like you think is gospel

hes your boys,
albeit more exuberant than your honesty can take






Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 22, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
The case has now concluded, and the court will issue its verdict on August 24th.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/06/22/dramatic-end-to-10-weeks-of-hell/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 18, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
One year after terror struck the hearts of Norwegians, the security walls around Oslo’s bombed government complex are gone and plans are in place for an upcoming weekend of memorial events. Sunday July 22nd will feature official speeches, wreath-layings, a large outdoor concert where tens of thousands gathered in sorrow in Oslo last year, and moments of quiet reflection.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/17/norway-gets-ready-to-remember/

(OK, sorry - it's sort of political. But it is about a country with a lot of mountains.)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 20, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
Just a few hundred meters away from the scene of Norway’s worst attacks since World War II is a well-preserved message from the war itself. The message may encourage those venturing towards the island of Utøya, either during the first anniversary this weekend of last summer’s terrorist attacks on the island, or anytime.

The "Vi Vil Vinne" (We Will Win) war memorial is located just 200 meters from a makeshift memorial to the victims of the massacre on the island of Utøya last year, and uncannily relevant as Norwegians recover from the tragedy. Various memorial events will be held this weekend, tied to the first anniversary of the terrorist attacks on July 22, 2011. PHOTO: Views and News

Motorists driving north on the narrow road along the Tyrifjord known as Ringeriksveien, just under and paralleling the E16 highway, will encounter the message on the way to Utvika and the mainland dock for Utøya. It amounts to three words painted on the asphalt in the middle of the road: Vi Vil Vinne (We Will Win), with emphasis on the capital “Vs” for victory.

They were first painted, illegally, by three young men from Oslo in 1941, a year after Norway was invaded by Nazi Germany. The trio – brothers Henrik and Frans Aubert and their friend Egil Breen – unwittingly or not thus created an important symbol for the Norwegian resistance movement (Hjemmefronten, the home front) as they battled Nazi forces.
Credit: Mighty Hiker
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/18/encouraging-words-as-utoya-memorials-loom/
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 20, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Perhaps somewhat academic - either way he'll never be released.

Do Norwegians believe in rehabilitation?


Are they the type who prefer to throw away the key, and will adjust the legal system to accommodate such urges?



I'm not a news hound, nonetheless I don't recall any other major news event emanating from Norway over the past year. When I hear 'Norway' I think of Troll Wall and Brevik. I wonder if there's a significant Brevik (anti-Brevik) industry ensconced there, T-shirts, buttons, posters, books, memorial items.
We sure did milk the living sh|t out of Ground Zero and 9/11. Even directly after the towers went down, it was a major tourist hit, I'd never seen so many tourists flocking to downtown Manhattan huddled in deep throngs to get a glimpse of the site of carnage.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 20, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
Lovegasoline

In Norway there is absolutely a certain belief in rehabilitation, especially concerning young people breaking the law. Still young people who end up in jail are often put in jail with people with a long criminal record, which gives them an education they don't need.

In Breivik's case I don't think many people in Norway believe in rehabilitation. He has his own ideology and he is not going to let it go.

Like the fox in this story I think he will not let his belief go:
"There was once a fox who was so utterly without cunning that he not only constantly fell into traps but could not even distinguish a trap from what was not a trap.… After this fox had spent his entire youth in other people’s traps … he decided to completely withdraw from the fox world, and began to build a den [Fuchsbau].… He built himself a trap as a den, sat down in it, pretended it was a normal den (not out of cunning, but because he had always taken the traps of others for their dens).… This trap was only big enough for him.… Nobody could fall into his trap, because he was sitting in it himself.… If one wanted to visit him in the den where he was at home, one had to go into his trap. Of course everybody could walk right out of it, except him.… The fox living in the trap said proudly: so many fall into my trap; I have become the best of all foxes. And there was even something true in that: nobody knows the trap business [das Fallenwesen] better than he who has been sitting in a trap all his life."

Let us hope few people will fall into a trap like his.

There is no "I-hate-Breivik"-industry in Norway (as far as I know). The tendency is to make an industry of loving one another, a common future and so on. I like this tendency.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Jul 20, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
Your interpretation, not mine.

I was a believer in rehabilitation when I was young. Now that I am old, I can't say that I am optimistic about rehabilitation or that it could take place in a criminal institution.

People have different motivations for visiting ground zero or any other such site. It is part of our collective history, and of course people want to see for their own eyes the images that they stared at on television. My family was in the tower. I had colleagues that were in the tower. I am an EMT, and that mass casualty incident is significant. It isn't merely a morbid curiousity. There is a desire to honor those that gave so much - living and dead. I do not begrudge a few dollars to do so and do not feel that is crass commercialism. Everyone needs to earn a living, and some are no longer living.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 20, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
I wasn't implying that it was simply - or even - morbid curiosity. It was interesting to see the tourists and also, like any other event, how quickly and extensively the T-shirt, tchotchka, and souvenir business took off and became a zoo of its own with all the battles over commerce, territory, etc. That's the USA. I just have no grasp of Norwegian culture and consumerism. Living in NYC, and a member of this deranged consumer culture, I just assumed that Norway would be choked with hawkers selling souvenirs and it's hard for me to imagine otherwise. That's why I'm asking.

We've got 9/11 everything you could possibly want to buy here. Not to mention online. There's probably a collectors market, auction records, the whole nine.


Nobody knows the future of Norway. I wonder if Brevik after 21 years or whatever in a cush Norwegian prison could come to change his ideology, i.e. could be rehabilitated and reconciled. Particularly if he came to an awareness that his political and cultural predictions were inaccurate and he came to regret his actions. Is the Norwegian cultural psyche open to that possibility or do they just want to be rid of him?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Jul 20, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
I couldn't help but notice this Norway discussion, since I read an article in Nat. Geo. Mag from 1974 just last week which wondered about the Samit people of northern Norway, numbering then in that country about 25,000. They derived their traditional living from herding the nomadic reindeer. The nut of the article was that this segment was neither fish nor fowl in the sense that their ways no longer supported enough families to continue the way of life except for those who were able to increase the size of their herds while the range for grazing was shrinking.

I suppose my concern is more for the outcome of this problem rather than the ultimate fate or rehab of the "little Hitler," Brevik. He seems a bit of a fascist, from what I have heard, to say the least. Which I will. He is not worth thinking about. He is best left to his black thoughts and we simply ought to go on with the really interesting and important problems which need addressing.

In light of today's shootings in Colorado, this may seem callous, but the same can be said in the future of this new version of Brevik. When the law's done with him, forget about him.

I don't wish to debate this with anyone. I haven't the time to waste.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 21, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Rehabilitation would be a major consideration in sentencing the murderer, assuming that he's found guilty, rather than not guilty by reason of insanity. It is a key element in Scandinavian judicial systems, more so than in many countries. So he would be offered a variety of programs for rehabilitation. Whether he goes through them, and how he does, would probably affect the renewal of his sentence. In other words, if he in time shows genuine remorse, and change, he might (big might) change the terms or length of his sentence. It's pretty hypothetical at this point, but they'll at least try. Whether it'd make a real difference to the custody and sentence may be another matter.

There doesn't seem any 'industry' in Norway related to this. Different countries and societies, different values. There will be numerous memorials on Sunday, attended by the royal family and leading politicians. There will also be a large memorial concert in downtown Oslo, possibly including an appearance from Bruce Springsteen, which is expected to draw up to 200,000 people, plus television. They certainly won't let the memory of the dead grow dim.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 22, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
The melody Springsteen is playing in the memorial concert in Oslo right now.



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 22, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Rehabilitation would be a major consideration in sentencing the murderer, assuming that he's found guilty, rather than not guilty by reason of insanity.


Don't be foolish and liberal, Anders. You cannot rehabilitate that kind of crazy.

Better to lock him up forever, or kill him. Look what he did.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
Thanks, Marlow! Are you at the concert at Rådhusplassen? There were estimates that 200,000 would attend.

Your post, and today's memorials and concert, provide a definitive answer to bluering's question. I only hope that the murderer was strapped into a chair and made to watch it all on television, and see how he failed. (Particularly the songs "We Shall Overcome" and "Children of the Rainbow".) Perhaps he will never be rehabilitated - indeed, it seems likely. He may never be released from whatever institution he ends up in. But should a nation abandon its values and all hope that he can be rehabilitated, for revenge? It's a far greater victory if Norway sticks to its principles despite what happened, and learns from it.
WBraun

climber
Jul 22, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Not guilty by reason of insanity?

You have to be stupid to not see that an act like that is purely insane no matter how you want to spin it.

The guy is already insane and guilty.

Norway is stupid and there's no trail needed.

He's already guilty and insane.

No sane man does sh!t like this.

Norway is stupid and insane not to see that ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 22, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Mighty Hiker
I'm not at Rådhusplassen. I am seeing the concert on TV. It was a valuable statement balancing the sorrow and the belief in a common future. No hate, no fear.

WBraun
Norway has no ears and no eyes, but stoopid Marlow has and he sees the insanity. ;o)

Edited
Mighty Hiker: WBraun is just fuking around. Your point is well made. I am glad the ideologically blinded or insane (common sense insane) Breivik has the same rights as every Norwegian.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Yes, in the popular use of the word, the murderer in Norway was insane. Whether he legally was isn't quite the same thing.

Even in the USA, murderers (usually) have the right to a public, fair trial under the law. They're not "perps" or insane until a court says they are. Why should Norway do otherwise? Maybe the trial was just "going through the motions", but it's a necessary part of the process.

Will you say the state of Colorado is stupid and insane when it holds a public trial under its laws for the murderer from Friday night, and as part of that considers whether the killer was insane? If so, your own constitution and supreme court disagree, rather clearly.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 23, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
Yes, I knew Werner was being mischievous. It's not like him. The Norwegians are in any case a stubborn folk, and have settled on their course of action.

The point of the events on Sunday was to remember the dead and injured, and their families and friends. It seems to have been a very poignant day, with essentially all of Norway involved. 60,000 are estimated to have attended the outdooor memorial concert at the square outside Oslo's city hall, on a cold and rainy evening, and there were appropriate ceremonies at Utøya and elsewhere that were very well attended, including past and present members of the Norwegian government, the royal family, and representatives of foreign governments. Members of the Norwegian government conspicuously were without visible security detachments, as usual, as they insist on being approachable figures, a privilege which the public and news media rarely abuse.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/opinion/jonas-gahr-store-learning-from-norways-tragedy.html?_r=1 (Norway's foreign minister)

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/22/springsteen-we-shall-overcome/
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/22/pilgrimage-back-to-massacre-scene/
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/22/photo-special-remembering-july-22/
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/22/honour-the-dead-by-celebrating-life/
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 13, 2012 - 07:36am PT
I appreciate the willingness of the commission of inquiry to see the world and actions for what they were during the attack/terror the 22/7.

Some conclusions:

 The 22/7-attack could have been prevented if already established security measures/instructions had been followed.

 The authorities ability to protect people at Utøya failed. Quicker actions by the police had been possible. The gun-man could have been stopped earlier.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 18, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
State Police Director Øystein Mæland has become the first casualty of this week’s scathingly critical report on how Norwegian police failed to efficiently respond to last year’s terrorist attacks in Norway. Mæland announced his resignation just as leaders of Norway’s political parties were launching a debate of their own over the report on Thursday night.
The odd thing is, he'd only taken on that role two months before the attacks, and for that reason no one was holding him responsible, although neither was he getting vocal support. It appears that he simply did the honourable thing.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/08/16/police-chief-quits-lacked-support/

Prime Minister Stoltenberg continues to have a high level of support.

The verdict on the murderer, and his sentence, should be on August 24th.
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Aug 18, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
This is all still very mind numbing to think about. So many, so much lost.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
All these shooting tragedies are mind blowing.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:16am PT
Norway’s home-grown confessed terrorist Anders Behring Breivik knew what he was doing when he killed 77 persons in and around Oslo on July 22 last year, the city court in Oslo ruled on Friday. The court, finding Breivik sane at the time of his murderous rampage, sentenced him to Norway’s longest prison term of 21 years, with a provision that can allow him to be held in custody for the rest of his life.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/08/24/breivik-ruled-sane-and-sent-to-jail/
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:27am PT
I sure hope that doesn't mean that psycho is up for "parole" every 10 years. None of the victims should EVER have to worry about him getting out.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:47am PT
I am a live and let live kinda guy, but 21 years for a guy that young seems a bit lenient. Does 21 years mean 21 years in Norway?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
All these shooting tragedies are mind blowing.


I assume you're aware of this morning in New York?

To paraphrase Eric Beck.... at either end of the socio-economic spectrum lies a gun culture. One being various lawless frontiers like Somalia, Afghanistan, Congo, etc.... The other end being one particularly lawless frontier nation - The Excited States of America. Either way the attitude is the same.

Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Saw thi son the news today and was shocked to hear thats his sentence and he has a treadmill and a computer in his cell.

Hello Norway!

This POS shot 77 people blew up a building and hurt countless others.

Feel free to cut his head off we will not judge you for it.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
treadmill and a computer
It's still a cell within a prison. The computer has no internet connection, so it's little more than a typewriter, he may not even be allowed video games.

A novel concept, that prison with a treadmill so he can stay healthy is anything like being outside, beyond the walls.
A good written description of his prison is here:
[url]="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19354906"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19354906[/url]

Insights into the Norwegian penal philosophy from the BBC article
"The idea is to increase contacts with the prison staff who are tasked with keeping him active, doing physical exercise with him, talking to him," Ms Bjercke told the Associated Press news agency. "Isolation is torture."
"I like to put it this way: he's a human being," said Ms Bjercke. "He has human rights. This is about creating a humane prison regime."

The modern prison has 12 wings and can hold 124 prisoners, overseen by 230 staff who can monitor them via surveillance cameras.

The last time a man escaped from Ila was in 2004, and he was caught within minutes, according to prison governor Knut Bjarkeid.

While none of the prison officers are armed with guns, they do have access to batons and can use tear gas if required.


As if the US' inhumane prison regime is effective. With the highest rate of incarceration in the US/Canada/Europe. Higher even than Russia.
And Norway is the lowest
The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world (743 per 100,000 population), Russia has the second highest rate (577 per 100,000), followed by Rwanda (561 per 100,000).[8] As of year-end 2009 the USA rate was 743 adults incarcerated in prisons and jails per 100,000 population.[4][8] At year-end 2007 the United States had less than 5% of the world's population[29] and 23.4% of the world's prison and jail population (adult inmates).[9]
By comparison the incarceration rate in England and Wales[clarification needed] in October 2011 was 155 people imprisoned per 100,000 residents;[30] the rate for Norway in May 2010 was 71 inmates per 100,000;[31] Netherlands in April 2010 was 94 per 100,000;[32] Australia in June 2010 was 133 per 100,000;[33] and New Zealand in October 2010 was 203 per 100,000.[34]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

Time Magazine article on a new Norwegian prison in 2010
Countries track recidivism rates differently, but even an imperfect comparison suggests the Norwegian model works. Within two years of their release, 20% of Norway's prisoners end up back in jail. In the U.K. and the U.S., the figure hovers between 50% and 60%
[url="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz24UhF59NB["]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz24UhF59NB[[/url]


Do I think Brevik's prison sentence should have been longer. Yes, I'd say life without possibility of parole.
Do I think Norway will re-think their prison sentencing laws? Yes.
Do I think Brevik is going to get out in his lifetime?
No.
The additional criminal sentence of forvaring (protective custody) tacked on to Breivik’s 21-year term means he’ll be subject to a court evaluation of the danger he poses to society every five years. Breivik has never expressed regret and testified that he’d carry out attacks again. If he maintains that position and is thus still deemed dangerous 21 years from now, he can be sentenced to another five years in prison, and be subject to such five-year extensions for the rest of his life or at least until he’s considered to no longer be dangerous.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/08/24/breivik-ruled-sane-and-sent-to-jail/

Should we be just like Norway? no
Could we learn a LOT about incarceration from Norway and other European countries. You bet.
Should we make our prison systems more humane? Certainly, and it will save us BIG money. Of course it will also put a lot of prison employees out of work. Hurt the profits of the companies where we've outsourced prison operations.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
Look at it this way. sooner or later (decades perhaps) the terrifying and humbling truth of all his delusions of grandeur and moral depravity will become apparent to him and then, if still interested in salvaging any vestige of human decency remaining, he must convince many skeptics or outright don't give a shitters that he is somehow worthy of a second kick at the can. Or his delusions continue. Either way he lives a life of complete, absolute and utter unfulfilled potential. Life itself becomes torture. surely any climber can figure this out. Those with vengeance in your heart can be satisfied with that or go see a shrink or better yet, the dalai Lama.

If you kill him you kill yourself, or at least the basis of any civil society, like texas for instance.

You ever wonder how any so called christian can be pro death penalty without the slightest sense of hypocrisy?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
We're not talking about rehabilitating an 18 year old druggie who robbed a bank and killed a security guard on the way out. This isn't a guy who hated the government and went to shoot up a miltary base.

This is an adult sociopath who methodically killed 70+ children. Sociopaths cannot be fixed. You either kill them immediately, the appropriate reaction, or you bury them so deep in a hole that they can never get out. I say "reaction" and not punishment because that's what it is. Punishment is meant to correct behavior and is a waste of time with sociopaths. This is simply removing dangerous garbage from the planet. If you cut a malignant mole off your thigh would you then keep it in your pocket?

I fully understand those opposed to the death penalty in cases where there's even the slightest possibility the accused didn't do it.

But those who suggest this person qualifies as human and has rights have never met real evil.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
Thanks, HT and Bruce. Helpful contributions, especially those of HT. It would have been quite understandable to others had Norway sentenced the murderer to life in prison (which in effect it has), or even executed him. There are certainly people in Norway who'd support the latter, just as there is a xenophobic right-wing minority. It's a country that has for the most part moved past blind retribution, and arguably has a more enlightened judicial and penal system. That may or may not be "better", or "right", but that's their choice.

FWIW, to many outsiders (and Norwegians) the choices of the US when it comes to guns, authoritarianism, crime, violence, and its judicial and penal system seem much less reasoned or defensible than those of Norway.

When Norway was attacked by Germany in April 1940, it took many Norwegians and its government by surprise. Despite ample warnings, they were unprepared, and indeed a few thought the British were attacking. (The English had mined some of the sea approaches to Norway, to deter Germany-bound shipping, e.g. iron ore from Narvik, and soon enough would have interdicted the shipping lanes, at least. But on a relatively amicable basis.) Many asked why it was happening to Norway, although there were ample strategic grounds for what the Germans did, and what the British might have done. The reaction to the murders last year was in some ways similar - there's perhaps an element of naivete, or insularity, in Norwegian attitudes. Perhaps what happened will temper that with bitter experience that the world in fact isn't always a nice place.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
there's perhaps an element of naivete, or insularity, in Norwegian attitudes. Perhaps what happened will temper that with bitter experience that the world in fact isn't always a nice place.
How many mass murderers has Norway had?
As far as I can find, only Breivik, 77 dead.
Sweden has had 4 in over 100 years, total 25 dead.

Perhaps the Norwegians are resilient enough and smart enough to not overreact. To not start locking up every murderer for life or to hang the worst of them.
They are likely reasonable enough to realize they have much lower crime and especially murder rates than the US are are not likely to emulate our legal and penal systems.

You CAN bet they're already paying much closer attention to neo-Fascists and racist hate groups.
Norwegians fought the Germans throughout WWII and never surrendered in spite of over 400,000 occupying German troops, a puppet government and many collaborators. They are very tough people.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Uh, so this relatively young man with a proven will to kill mass quantities is getting out in 10-20 years?

This is what liberal idealism has wrought. Very smart and sophisticated. Very intellectual and enlightened.

F*#king idiots are begging for it again....I'd say they deserve what the sow, but that would be unfair to the future victims...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
Please read the above, and links. Breivik was sentenced to 21 years. Even after 21 years he can't just be released - there has to be a report that he's no longer a danger to the public, and otherwise the sentence is renewed, five years at a time.

You seem to have difficulty accepting that other peoples have different value systems, and even threatened by it. Norway is in many ways a mo