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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Jul 21, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
NOT specifically Jaybro. BUT, if one gets proficient at shooting (ie practice) one should be able to contain their shots to a "kill zone" which is normally "center mass". Center mass being roughly the size of ones head. Yes a DIFFICULT situation but NOT impossible - we will never know the end result. Had i been there i would have taken it as a responsiblity to try and stop the attack. Much like i would if some crazy were to approach a crag and start shooting.

In regards to my recent incident here, NOT ONE lyon county dectective sgt or deputy asked me about my gun or the fact that was the first thing i reached for upon hearing the shots ring out. They didnt even ask to see it to see if it had been discharged. I acted out of concern for others as well as my immediate surroundings, and must have been judged prudent in my actions, as not one of them told me i should have just ducked and covered.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 21, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
Seems odd they didn't ask you that question,maybe not if they'd already accounted for the shots fired....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Jul 21, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
the "odds" are NEVER good in such a situation. Nor are they good one on one across a camp fire. They certainly werent good for those guys stepping off landing craft on Utah beach.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 21, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
There is no rational reason that assault rifles should be legal in modern society.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Jul 21, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
JD, any modern repeating rifle could be considered an assualt rifle. Doesnt matter ir its a remington semi auto or an ar 15 the trigger can be squeezed just as fast.

edit: I know we have all thse fancy new mean looking weapons like ARs and SIGs and the AK/SKs, but for all the look and labelling, they still fire the same as any semi auto. UNLESS modified to shoot FULLY auto, they are one in the same as Dads deer hunting rig. The term "assualt rifle" in and of itself is meaningless.
khanom

Trad climber
The Dessert
Jul 21, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
How is that where people like cragman see the looming specter of communism, I see fascism?



Edit: The term "assualt rifle" in and of itself is meaningless.

Completely agree.

beef supreme

climber
the west
Jul 21, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
Been following both of these threads, interesting commentary on a terrible event; and naturally this would turn into a political gun debate- look at the news, it's not just sTopians that have taken it there.

I have to ask the gun control crowd though: if you found yourself in that situation- would you rather there be a chance of someone else having a firearm or would you rather know, without a doubt, that no one else in the room had a gun aside from the crazy fuk shooting everyone? Think about it, because when you preach gun control, especially concealed carry, that is what you're potentially creating.

I, for one, would much rather know that at least there was a chance of someone being able to put a stop to or deter the event- many of you have said the chances of that are slim to none- but there would be a chance no?

The discussion about 'automatic weapons' or 'assault rifles' has no bearing here- there isn't anything special about a .223 that looks like a full auto if it isn't.

Reading some of the comments on the original thread about gun control makes me really wonder about some of you people. I mean, for fuks sake, we're climbers to varying degree right? Doesn't that involve some sort of risk/decision making process? Isn't it rooted, in some degree, in freedom of choice? Ok, free soloing is dangerous... should it be illegal? I always wonder why it's against the law to kill yourself, or not wear a seatbelt- it's my fukin body, fuk you. How about personal responsibility!?

I am of the opinion that govt control is part of the reason our society is finding itself in the situation it is: I would argue that because of restrictive rules 'to protect people' that people have stopped thinking for themselves, stopped looking for cars at crosswalks, and stopped looking out for their own well being because it's been ingrained that 'the man' will protect you. There seems to be, in my own twisted perspective of reality, an almost orchestrated attempt to get people to become 'un-responsible', to depend on the govt/the man/ big brother/ whatever.

Also to blame: a culture of violence, I don't think anyone would refute that.

Just my thoughts, best wishes to the victims and their families; I hope that society doesn't waste too much on the perp.





Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 21, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
Beef, I would MUCH rather know there was only one wacko with a gun in a given situation like that. Only one shooter to keep an eye on. Yes it is theoretically possible that another gunner could save the day like a superhero, but given human falibity I have to think the odds would be that it would put more people at greater danger.
beef supreme

climber
the west
Jul 21, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
I understand your reasoning for being afraid of another person shooting in a situation like that, but, what I don't understand is why you imply that another person would be a 'wacko' as well.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 21, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
Law of averages.

For every Cragman or Shack, how many wannabe 'gangstas' or rox' are there?
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jul 21, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
A couple of things from my perspective ( middle aged Canadian female who does not and has not ever owned firearms )

Canada still has shootings the way Americans do. These are mostly gang-related killings or criminal-element stuff not using registered firearms. We have strong gun control and yet nefarious types still have guns.

Forcibly seizing guns from legitimate registered owners is only going to return the guns of legitimate registered owners. The "bad guys" will still have 'em. ( q/v paragraph above ) Ergo you will still have a problem.

Using this latest mass-murder incident as a reason to debate gun-control is a red-herring. We are once again distracted and traumatized by the news into believing we are at risk. Your government will only capitalize on that fear. Look at what you allowed to happen in the time following 911........

beef supreme

climber
the west
Jul 21, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
I dunno how many wanna be gangsters there may be, perhaps you have a point. But if you want to use the 'law of averages' then I'd apply it to someone being of use in a situation like that.

Most of the people that I've met that have anything to do with guns are responsible with their firearms, those that do/have a concealed carry aren't 'wanna be gansters' either. Doesn't mean that they're not out there, wanna be 'heros' or whatever, but I'm more concerned about the real gangsters/ people of violence/ criminals/ etc.
beef supreme

climber
the west
Jul 21, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
totally, 100% agree with you Tami
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 21, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
Donnini....You just crapped in the gun deabte litter box...go get a rake and cover it.......RJ
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Jul 21, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
Jaybro all of my group of freinds and climbing buddies shoot and own weapons. MOST have ccws, and practice on a normal basis. I would bet them all to possess the needed traits. Theres a reason you dont hear of the citizen vs bad guy that shoots the bad guy dead. Those stories are barely a blip on the media screen. Probably the same thoughts Wyatt Earp had when he started dissarming towns BITD. Good in theory but increased the possible "pidgeon" for the bad guys. It may just be a case of denial that we are somehow more civilized than any other region on the planet. We had the originators of the constitution tell us what would be required to flush the system and we also ignored that in favor of our civlity and letting the good times roll.. the hundreds of thousands of KNOWN gang members here proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that civility is being trumped by nare-do-wells. I can only ask the Sheriff why we have over a thousand KNOWN gang members here. IF they KNOW they are gang members, there should be that many KNOWN funerals and or arrests shortly there after. Instead its just a census thing in these days of PC and immigration gone amuck.
beef supreme

climber
the west
Jul 21, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
toadgas, maybe you're onto something about crazy genetics. didn't malcom gladwel write about that in blink or (drawing a blank on the other book i've read of his)- anyway, about the violent portions of appalacia and family feuds?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 21, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Donnini was in special forces..? I retract the litter box remark...Was just joking.......RJ
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 21, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Okay, I'm sure they do too. But like Shack said, you dont know how someone will react until they are in the situation. I, for one, do not care to be part of their learning curve,

And btw, I dont think the socio-ethnic cleansing of gang members that you implied is the answer either
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 21, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
Maybe the solution is for Americans to wear flak jackets in public just like the Israelis being issued Gas Masks by their government...?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jul 21, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
NOW the fundamental issue is .....Americans themselves! but we can't exactly outlaw being an American, eh? America has 22x more gun homicides then the other 10 wealthiest Western countries. So what's the deal? my guess is subtle genetic mutations or variations that immigrants coming to America all had in common. Increased testosterone may be one of them. Think about it...long ago in Europe or Asia, the guy who wanted to immigrate to America was likely an ornery ass-hole type guy, stronger and angrier and somewhat less intelligent than his neighbors; anti-social and possibly generally combative...he wanted to leave his humble village and go stake his claim in the American wilderness or the dank, tough alleys of NYC or Boston; he hated his fuking neighbors to begin with! soooooo, what happens? this ornery, anti-social strain of homo sapiens comes to America and has babies who are anti-social ass-holes! and they have babies who are ass-holes, on and on! next thing you know, you have an entire country of gun-happy whackos who don't trust their neighbors, are anti-social, and are generally fukin NUTS

Fine writing!
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