The Gun debate sandbox

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1361 - 1380 of total 5891 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 12, 2012 - 02:30am PT
Well, fortunately this whack was clearly incompetent with weapons and we got off extremely lucky compared to what could have gone down. It's getting to the point where they're going to need to put swat team members on a daily rotation through malls with a decent weapon on hand in the security office. Too much damage can be done before regular cops or a swat team outside a mall can respond and get in the door.

And with regard to armed citizens taking on a well-armed and armored fellow gun nut of even moderate competence with weapons? Right. Sorry, I wouldn't count on more ST gun guys responding effectively than I can count on one hand and that's on a good day.
dogtown

Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
Dec 12, 2012 - 06:24am PT
Me and Jeff
Me and Jeff
Credit: dogtown
My bud Jeff and I and his Apache gunship that has turned people in to pink spary with his awesome chain cannon.
And yes we are gun nuts!!It's a Wyoming thing.
Got terrorists? Not much crime in the hood or the state for the matter. BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE FIRE ARMS.Well not all but a lot. Lots of laws on the books regarding guns already. It also should remain a state thing keep the fed out of it.
jahil

Social climber
London, Paris, WV & CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
Looks like all you gun nuts failed to protect 27 people in Connecticut today. Enough of your stupid whining 2nd amendment bullsh*t, you all deserve to lose your toys, no exceptions, every single one of you.
We dont need a militia to protect us from anyone, we all need protection from the NRA whack jobs and the destruction that you enable.

steve
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Well, fortunately this whack was clearly incompetent with weapons

Unfortunately not the case with the latest.


Susan
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Looks like all you gun nuts failed to protect 27 people in Connecticut today. Enough of your stupid whining 2nd amendment bullsh*t, you all deserve to lose your toys, no exceptions, every single one of you.
We dont need a militia to protect us from anyone, we all need protection from the NRA whack jobs and the destruction that you enable.


well said
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
Enough of your stupid whining 2nd amendment bullsh*t, you all deserve to lose your toys, no exceptions, every single one of you.

So, a monster in human form commits a heinous act, and instead of trying to find a way to identify and stop such individuals you come up with the usual knee jerk reaction that somehow this is the fault of people like me who need, obviously, to be punished and have our liberties taken away, as if that will help.

I deserve to lose? I am not the one who is committing the evil.

I understand your frustration and anger. I feel it too, directed differently though. My rage is directed at the individual who is capable and willing to do this thing. And I am frustrated that there was no one at the scene who could defend those innocent victims.

I am not just making the usual point about someone at the scene having a gun. Rather, it will be interesting to see as time passes how many clues there were that this guy was nuts. Clues which went ignored.

I hate to say this, but it is a more logical conclusion than yours. If our children are among our post precious and valuable creations, perhaps putting them all together in one place with no security whatsoever is not such a smart idea.

drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Outlaw those horrible, violent video games.
We train and desensitize our kids to guns and violence from a young age.
Then when they're older and depressed, on drugs, or whatever, and have access to guns....
bad sh#t happens.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
Kristian Solem Wrote:
So, a monster in human form commits a heinous act, and instead of trying to find a way to identify and stop such individuals you come up with the usual knee jerk reaction that somehow this is the fault of people like me who need, obviously, to be punished and have our liberties taken away, as if that will help.

I deserve to lose? I am not the one who is committing the evil.

I understand your frustration and anger. I feel it too, directed differently though. My rage is directed at the individual who is capable and willing to do this thing. And I am frustrated that there was no one at the scene who could defend those innocent victims.

I am not just making the usual point about someone at the scene having a gun. Rather, it will be interesting to see as time passes how many clues there were that this guy was nuts. Clues which went ignored.

I hate to say this, but it is a more logical conclusion than yours. If our children are among our post precious and valuable creations, perhaps putting them all together in one place with no security whatsoever is not such a smart idea.

That is nothing but doublespeak and rationalization.

Yeah, we just need to look for "clues" - that's the answer!

And the last sentence is severely f*#ked up.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
That is nothing but doublespeak and rationalization.

Please explain.

I tried to make my point clearly using language. You come back saying I am using "doublespeak and rationalization" but make no example. This is intellectually weak. If you agree with Jahil that taking away my guns and those in the hands of other non crazy Americans will somehow magically stop such acts of evil committed by insane people please explain your logic instead of lust uttering nonsense put downs and insults without substance.

And what is "Seriously f*#ked up" about the suggestion that some security at our schools might be wise?

I think DRJefe's observation above is a good one.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
My bud Jeff and I and his Apache gunship that has turned people in to pink spary with his awesome chain cannon.

sweet.
No desensitization here in America!
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
My bud Jeff and I and his Apache gunship that has turned people in to pink spary with his awesome chain cannon.
And yes we are gun nuts!

doesn't impress me dude.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
Dogtown's post get my vote as the most idiotic of 2012.
this just in

climber
north fork
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
Ksolem, Nicely put.

Dogtown???
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
I was trying to think of an argument to own a gun. I own a few, I never go out and shoot them and in general am unimpressed with firearms in general. To be honest I haven't really thought much lately about why someone should have a right to own a gun or not own one. I then thought back to the LA riots that I lived and worked through. I was working at a fire station in Hollywood at the time. I remember after all hell broke loose the LAPD apologizing to us and asking if we were armed? They realized they would not be able to help us, we were on our own. That night while our truck was responding g to one of thousands of fires a guy pulled up on the drivers side of the truck and fired into the cab striking our driver I the throat. If not for the quick thinking of one of the fireman he would have died. The fireman reached up and pulled the air brake and also stuck his finger into the hole in the side of Scott's neck stopping the profuse bleeding. Scott survived but suffers to this day from speech impairment and motor deficit. What also struck me during the riots, as if one of my co workers being shot wasn't enough was the way the business community in Holkywood and all over LA Took up arms to defend themselves and their businesses. I saw owners on roofs with rifles defending their property and homes in some cases while buildings next door that had no protection were looted and burned to the ground.

I soon started carrying a weapon with me to work and continued to for several months afterward. I fortunetly never had to use it.

The riots reminded me that things can change in an instant and that I can't always rely on the local law enforcement for my families protection. I hope I never have to use my gun but it gives me a little piece of mind knowing that I know how to use it if God forbid the need ever arises.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
What Tami says about guns being controlled in Canada but people getting guns is interesting. We have Switzerland, a land full of automatic rifles with nothing like this, contrasted with Mexico, a land of gun control yet paradoxically full of gun violence. I think Anastasia is onto something I've not considered before.

"The whole gun debate is distracting, we are avoiding the real issue. We as a nation are suffering because we lack a proper social structure. We don't have town squares, a place where people can connect to those living around them. This whole individual bubble isolation isn't working. We need to fix how we relate, be a real neighborhood instead of just people sharing a street and never talking to each other. Seriously folks, isn't it obvious???

People are getting sick and no one is noticing or... Helping... That needs to change BIG TIME. We are social animals. We need each other."

Anything worth saying once is worth saying twice.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
Yes, you f*#ks that resist any form of gun control deserve to lose your precious toys.

I own guns and believe in our right to have them, but the small penis, gun fetish, self centered as#@&%es who support the NRA and it's goal to resist background checks, high capacity magazines, easy access to assault weapons, and the like should take a good look in the mirror and realize they are helping make sure psychos can get these weapons.

There will always be crazy f*#ks like the POS in Conn. who are going to kill people. The harder it is for them to get assault weapons, body armor, high capacity mags, etc the less likely this type of thing will happen, or at least they'll be able to kill way less people.

But I imagine all the cowardly gun toters will rationalize this and say we should arm teachers, or the crazy people will get them anyway. B.S. The easier it is to get dangerous guns the more the crazy people will have them. Period. If you can't admit that you are full of sh#t.

We should have guns but they should be much more controlled. It's a small price to pay when sh#t like this happens and we have done so little to help prevent it. I'd have no problem registering my guns (it's pretty ridiculous that I have guns that I legally don't have to register), and providing ballistic fingerprinting for them. And it should be very regulated to buy handguns and assault type guns and if you run blackmarket ones you should be in jail for a long time.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

Eleven facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States
Posted by Ezra Klein on December 14, 2012 at 2:07 pm

When we first collected much of this data, it was after the Aurora, Colo. shootings, and the air was thick with calls to avoid “politicizing” the tragedy. That is code, essentially, for “don’t talk about reforming our gun control laws.”
Let’s be clear: That is a form of politicization. When political actors construct a political argument that threatens political consequences if other political actors pursue a certain political outcome, that is, almost by definition, a politicization of the issue. It’s just a form of politicization favoring those who prefer the status quo to stricter gun control laws.
Since then, there have been more horrible, high-profile shootings. Jovan Belcher, a linebacker for the Kansas City Chiefs, took his girlfriend’s life and then his own. In Oregon, Jacob Tyler Roberts entered a mall holding a semi-automatic rifle and yelling “I am the shooter.” And, in Connecticut, at least 27 are dead — including 18 children — after a man opened fire at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
If roads were collapsing all across the United States, killing dozens of drivers, we would surely see that as a moment to talk about what we could do to keep roads from collapsing. If terrorists were detonating bombs in port after port, you can be sure Congress would be working to upgrade the nation’s security measures. If a plague was ripping through communities, public-health officials would be working feverishly to contain it.
Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. But that’s unacceptable. As others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn’t “too soon.” It’s much too late.
What follows here isn’t a policy agenda. It’s simply a set of facts — many of which complicate a search for easy answers — that should inform the discussion that we desperately need to have.

1. Shooting sprees are not rare in the United States.
Mother Jones has tracked and mapped every shooting spree in the last three decades. “Since 1982, there have been at least 61 mass murders carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii,” they found. And in most cases, the killers had obtained their weapons legally:

2. Eleven of the 20 worst mass shootings in the last 50 years took place in the United States.
Time has the full list here. In second place is Finland, with two entries.

3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland.
As David Lamp writes at Cato, “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’”

4. Of the 11 deadliest shootings in the US, five have happened from 2007 onward.
That doesn’t include Friday’s shooting in Sandy Hook, Connecticut. The AP put the early reported death toll at 27, which would make it the second-deadliest mass shooting in US history.
5. America is an unusually violent country. But we’re not as violent as we used to be.
Kieran Healy, a sociologist at Duke University, made this graph of “deaths due to assault” in the United States and other developed countries. We are a clear outlier.

As Healy writes, “The most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the U.S. is than other OECD countries (except possibly Estonia and Mexico, not shown here), and (2) the degree of change—and recently, decline—there has been in the U.S. time series considered by itself.”

6. The South is the most violent region in the United States.
In a subsequent post, Healy drilled further into the numbers and looked at deaths due to assault in different regions of the country. Just as the United States is a clear outlier in the international context, the South is a clear outlier in the national context:

7. Gun ownership in the United States is declining overall.
“For all the attention given to America’s culture of guns, ownership of firearms is at or near all-time lows,” writes political scientist Patrick Egan. The decline is most evident on the General Social Survey, though it also shows up on polling from Gallup, as you can see on this graph:

The bottom line, Egan writes, is that “long-term trends suggest that we are in fact currently experiencing a waning culture of guns and violence in the United States. “

8. More guns tend to mean more homicide.
The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states. Citations here.

9. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.
Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:

“The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state,” explains Florida. “It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place – assault weapons’ bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements. Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).”

10. Gun control, in general, has not been politically popular.
Since 1990, Gallup has been asking Americans whether they think gun control laws should be stricter. The answer, increasingly, is that they don’t. “The percentage in favor of making the laws governing the sale of firearms ‘more strict’ fell from 78% in 1990 to 62% in 1995, and 51% in 2007,” reports Gallup. “In the most recent reading, Gallup in 2010 found 44% in favor of stricter laws. In fact, in 2009 and again last year, the slight majority said gun laws should either remain the same or be made less strict.”

11. But particular policies to control guns often are.
An August CNN/ORC poll asked respondents whether they favor or oppose a number of specific policies to restrict gun ownership. And when you drill down to that level, many policies, including banning the manufacture and possession of semi-automatic rifles, are popular.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
"I own guns and believe in our right to have them, but the small penis, gun fetish, self centered as#@&%es who support the NRA and it's goal to resist background checks, high capacity magazines, easy access to assault weapons, and the like should take a good look in the mirror and realize they are helping make sure psychos can get these weapons."

+1

Enter the 'slippery slope' retort from the gun-nutz...

10...

9....

8....
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
"My bud Jeff and I and his Apache gunship that has turned people in to pink spary with his awesome chain cannon.
And yes we are gun nuts!!It's a Wyoming thing.
Got terrorists? Not much crime in the hood or the state for the matter. BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE FIRE ARMS.Well not all but a lot. Lots of laws on the books regarding guns already. It also should remain a state thing keep the fed out of it."

yea, dogtown is obviously a sackless deranged idiot. I really liked how he ended with the whole separation of powers argument though. It showed his willingness to listen to other ignorant f*#ks who have no idea about constitutional law issues. Nice job dogtown, you f*#king moron!
Messages 1361 - 1380 of total 5891 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews