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Messages 1381 - 1400 of total 6519 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
You just think you don't.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Oh shit!

Your're right!

They're all around me!
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
-


speakin of gun crazies--there may be a mass shooting in a Clackamas Co shopping mall today--anyone know details yet?



-
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
I'm on year 20 or so of carrying more or less every day..... I've never had to shoot anyone in a civilian situation nor have I had to threaten anyone. And that includes a robbery in a retail store where nobody was injured. I'm not superman nor am I expected, as a civilian, to protect anyone or anything. It's my choice. The laws are pretty clear.

Most level-headed people tend to behave that way if they're carrying a gun or not. I have educated many, many people in proper firearm handling. Over that time I've had only one guy who I would not teach, simply because he wouldn't... or couldn't... pay attention to simple tasks.

It's a shame the "gun nuts" get lumped into tidy bundles. I guess it's the same as "religious nuts", "liberals", "conservatives", "blacks", "whites", ... etc..

The need for such generalizations must be a throwback to our tribal roots.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
Costas hit the nail right on the head when he pointed out the the presence of a gun more often than not escalates the situation from shouts or fisticuffs to gunplay.


If you're concealing and some thug comes from around a corner and socks you in the side of the jaw and starts kicking you and asking for your wallet, you're not gonna ask for a fair fight. You're gonna draw and shoot him as many times as you can from point blank range til he stops.


If you're concealing and some thug comes from around a corner and has a gun and says "give me your wallet", you're most likely going to just give your wallet. If he turns and runs, you better have a good description of him.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
Two dead, crazy speculated to be in body armor still on the loose as of a few minutes ago. Jeez, maybe what would help would be even more guns in the mall.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
CNN is saying a gunman "neutralized".
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
He's been "Neutralized" in the latest report.

Unless you're wearing full body armor, including helmet, most people who practice a few times a month with their conceal carry weapon, can shoot an apple at about 25 yards. Aim for the head. That was the problem with the 1997 North Hollywood Shootout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Given the discussion just above, it's interesting the gunman used a rifle.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
After Colorado a lawyer friend asked me how many people a madman can carry ammo to kill.

Wait till someone goes postal with a 5.7 x 28mm bullpup.
You can easily carry 2K rds.

Climbers are used to dealing with potential lethality, but most people are repelled by it.
Still, nobody gets out alive and the world is a dangerous place.

If you don't want guns within 100' of you then keep your distance!
jstan

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
Wait till someone goes postal with a 5.7 x 28mm bullpup.
You can easily carry 2K rds.

Climbers are used to dealing with potential lethality, but most people are repelled by it.
Still, nobody gets out alive and the world is a dangerous place.

If you don't want guns within 100' of you then keep your distance!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
Given the discussion just above, it's interesting the gunman used a rifle.

Why not? They're scarier. More accurate. Easier to handle groupings. Higher capacity. Higher kill rate. Way more effective than handguns.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
Back to the District of Columbia, it's interesting to note that after the Supreme Court nullified the "no handguns" law there, violent crime dropped significantly while property crimes rose by about the same amount.

Koz I was by no means implying that nearly everyone has a gun, just how many are out there in civilian hands. My wife and I for example have six, 3 long, 2 short that work, 1 short that is an antique.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
That antique works pretty good for fixing Rabbits.


VW's that is.

;-)
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
That's funny. That may well be the last time I fired that pistol...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
"maybe what would help would be even more guns in the mall."

I've hear that guns are banned in the mall. Prohibited. There are signs stating such. You are welcome to speculate on what would or could have been if the signs were not there stating "Guns prohibited". Regardless, all the honest folks had left theirs in the car safe or at home. As demanded.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
Kris, you are correct in that I misused a figure of speach. Obviously, no can actually know how often a guns presence escalates things. Having personally witnessed two incidents where a minor traffic altercation turned into a shooting no doubt prejudices my point of view. One resulted in two murders, both sent young men to prison for long stays.

What can be known for certain is that if no gun is present, no gunplay will occur. That is what I really meant to say, and I apologize for mis-speaking.

As you noted in D.C. property crimes went up. How many of those were aimed at obtaining a gun via a burglary? And violent crime has been dropping all over the country for years as has been well documented by the FBI, so more concealed weapons in D.C. were not the panacea the gun lobby made them out to be.

The change in gun laws in D.C. roughly coincided with the end of the crack cocaine boom, so there were a lot fewer young men engaged in combat for their corner spots. The demographics of the area have also been changing as some areas that were previously very low income and very high unemployment experienced an influx of the huge numbers of new government employees and contractors brought in by the "war on terror". They had to live somewhere and many very bad neighborhoods underwent significant gentrification as the newcomers sought reasonably priced real estate.

There's no simplistic explanation to be had, no matter how badly the pro-gun faction wants to spin it. The "armed society is a polite society" platitude might be judged against the backdrop of history.

In one of the most well armed parts of the wild West, Tombstone Arizona, you had to surrender your weapons to the law to be allowed into town. It was the only way they were able to curtail the near constant hail of lead the town had been experiencing. If that is your idea of a polite society you should probably move to the Gaza strip.

More guns equal more gun violence and more gun accidents, that's the bottom line. And by the way, I was an avid hunter growing up. by the time I got through the sixth grade I'd bagged two deer, hundreds of rabbits and many hundreds of birds, mostly quail with a fair number of ducks and one pheasant.

I don't hate guns, I actually love to shoot. I stopped hunting as I became more environmentally aware and personally witnessed the numbers of wildlife in my neck of the woods (4 corners) drop fairly dramatically. Now I would much rather see wild animals in the woods than take them home, never to be seen again. The loss of habitat in the West is disturbing and must be reversed. The hunting of top predators doesn't help either. What passes for big game just isn't as big as it used to be.

So don't paint me as a gun hater. I'm just realistic about things. Not many of the NRA crowd can make that claim. The NRA has turned into an anti-government, un-American extremist group in my point of view.

Our country needs to have more reasonable gun policies and we can only get there with considerate discussion. And at this point that seems out of reach of the pro gun lobby. The inability to compromise isn't a starting point for reasoned discussion.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
Our country needs less people.

We need to stop letting any immigrant in.

Need to stop expanding at such a rapid rate.

Need less Harris Ranch's, and more Wild Life preserves.

Need more cops, not lawyers.

Need more of these (Tent City Jails)
http://www.mcso.org/JailInformation/TentCity.aspx
Tent City Inmates.
Tent City Inmates.
Credit: michaeld


And less of these
Individual cells. Multiple stories. Really really expensive.
Individual cells. Multiple stories. Really really expensive.
Credit: michaeld
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 12, 2012 - 12:53am PT
Having personally witnessed two incidents where a minor traffic altercation turned into a shooting no doubt prejudices my point of view.

Seriously you have personally witnessed to minor traffic altercations escalate into gunfights?? Where?

I reject your Tombstone analogy. The guys shooting up the town were drunk desperate criminals. Hardly the law abiding citizen whose right to own guns I advocate.

The inability to compromise isn't a starting point for reasoned discussion.

Maybe I misunderstood your position. I read “no guns, no gunplay.” I also read the claim that “more often than not” when a gun is present “gunplay” will ensue. I still can’t figure out how that is misusing a figure of speech. Anyway surely you can see how I would take your position as hard line without interest in compromise based on your statements. I’m glad you’re not a gun hater, but you sure did paint yourself as one.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 12, 2012 - 02:30am PT
Well, fortunately this whack was clearly incompetent with weapons and we got off extremely lucky compared to what could have gone down. It's getting to the point where they're going to need to put swat team members on a daily rotation through malls with a decent weapon on hand in the security office. Too much damage can be done before regular cops or a swat team outside a mall can respond and get in the door.

And with regard to armed citizens taking on a well-armed and armored fellow gun nut of even moderate competence with weapons? Right. Sorry, I wouldn't count on more ST gun guys responding effectively than I can count on one hand and that's on a good day.
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