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monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 13, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
“Even as generously construed in Heller,” he said, “the Second Amendment provides no obstacle to regulations prohibiting the ownership or use of the sorts of automatic weapons used in the tragic multiple killings in Virginia, Colorado and Arizona in recent years. The failure of Congress to take any action to minimize the risk of similar tragedies in the future cannot be blamed on the court’s decision in Heller.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/us/gun-plans-dont-conflict-with-justices-08-ruling.html?_r=0
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
Says the guy who's trying to tell me that the 2nd amendment doesn't say what it actually says.

So you are saying the use of the words "THE PEOPLE" in the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 9th and 10th amendments have differing meanings?

Your reading of the second, by interpreting the preamble as some kind of limitation of rights (actually it is an affirmation of states rights) flies in the face of the main statement which has absolute clarity:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The article I linked above covers very thoroughly just how those words were arrived at and what was meant by them.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
The third program area [interstate loss or theft] has no enabling regulation. The interstate theft program addresses the many difficulties faced when firearms that are being shipped fail to arrive at their intended destination. Because the circumstances of their disappearance are so often unknown, it is not immediately clear whether they were stolen or misplaced. For this reason, this program area addresses both theft and loss under a uniform procedure, which is described in detail in the ensuing paragraphs.

How do guns disappear? More importantly why is there no FEDERALLY REQUIRED REPORTING for the disappearance of GUNS during INTERSTATE SHIPMENTS?

State and local law enforcement agencies often lack the jurisdiction or authority to investigate these interstate movements, particularly when the point of loss has not been determined.

However, an accurate determination of the full extent of all firearm thefts and losses in America is not possible. One of the leading factors is that there is no requirement that non-licensees report stolen firearms. A second is that among those non-licensees that want to report firearms thefts and losses, there is frequently an inability to accurately identify the firearms.


This is absurdly irresponsible. And this is what your NRA memberships go to support... more irresponsible bullshit to boost gun sales while disregarding public safety... all due to a deliberate misinterpretation of the 2nd amendment.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-3317-2.pdf
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
bang bang - the big bang

The Big Bang Theory

Dolphins may also be able to immobilize or even kill their prey using bursts of high-frequency sound. This idea was proposed in passing by a number of scientists but was first systematically investigated by the American and Danish marine mammal researchers Kenneth and Bertel Modl, in the first 'full-scale review' of the idea in 1983.

This 'big bang' theory suggests that, even if dolphins cannot kill their prey outright with bursts of sound, they can impair their prey's equilibrium or sensory system, making them easier to capture.

The 'big bang' theory may explain: how dolphins can catch prey that can easily out-distance and out-maneuver them; why dolphins have lost a large number of their functional teeth and their once-powerful jaws; and the high degree of co-operation between dolphins, necessary because they are carrying around the equivalent of a 'loaded gun'.

These so-called 'loud impulse sounds' have been recorded during predation in the wild by bottlenose dolphins and killer whales, made when the animals were hunting mullet and salmon respectively.

Norris and colleagues presented further evidence in 1989, based on experiments where the exposed anchovies to pneumatically-generated 'loud impulse sounds' similar to those recorded in the wild. They discovered that these sounds killed and injured the anchovies. More scientific evidence will be needed before conclusive proof of this theory can be obtained.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
The real question then, is what in our culture causes us to tolerate violence at every level,

UK: 3.5 times the violent crime rate, 1/3 the murder rate.

It ain't cultural, access to killing tools makes all the difference.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Was in the Cabelas in Grand Junction yesterday. They still have lots of ammo but are rationing 10 boxes per customer.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
I meant to say it isn't Uhmerikuhn ("our") culture specifically.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 13, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

2.1 million defensive uses of guns in the US each year.

11,493 gun deaths.





Remove guns from the good guys.





Gun deaths stay the same. 2.1 million incidences that turn into rapes or murders.






Net result!??? Violence rate increases to match that of the UK. Everybody Happy Happy Happy.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 13, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
Was it written by the same people who wrote the 2nd?

Actually quite a bit of it was. The author extensively uses letters, speeches, minutes of meetings and so forth from the discussions and debates which led to The Bill of Rights.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 13, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
You have no idea where the bill of rights came from do you?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
ksolem - it is not tenable that the authors of the Constitution intended any of the amendments to condone illegal actions against the government at constituted.

Certainly one can pick language from the debate prior to the draft and the eventual words of the particular article, that seem to indicate that people should have the "right" so as to protect themselves against a tyrannical government, but if they meant that, why didn't they say that?

Now, choosing to have universal and unimpeded access to guns will result in those guns being used for their intended function: to kill.

That is plain and simple, you can say they are used as a deterrent, but the threat behind the deterrent is death, absolute.

The choice to continue to interpret the "right to bear arms" is a choice that essentially prioritize this right to unimpeded access against the deaths that are inevitable because of the access. I haven't seen an argument that counters that...

Once again, there is only one reason to possess fire arms, and as stated in the 2nd amendment, it is not the right to hunt game, but to protect "a free state," by the possession of a lethal force.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
I guess Ed didn't read it either, or he would understand why non political uses of arms, and specific enumerations of arms were left out of the bill.

Now, choosing to have universal and unimpeded access to guns will result in those guns being used for their intended function: to kill

Please Ed, no one is arguing for "universal unimpeded" access to arms. This is far from the case today - unless you are a criminal and buy your guns on the black market - And the second amendment, in context with the others, does not guarantee such a thing either.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
delete


piss on it
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Dr Hartouni writes:

"Certainly one can pick language from the debate prior to the draft and the eventual words of the particular article, that seem to indicate that people should have the "right" so as to protect themselves against a tyrannical government, but if they meant that, why didn't they say that?"


I think they did, when the second amendment was written "...being necessary to the security of a free state...".

A state where citizens are not armed was seen by those guys as being something short of free.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
I'm a gun owner in favor of reasonable gun control as part of the solution to reducing mass murders.

I think I mentioned before Norton that Hedge wants to see all guns banned. That idea, at least in this country, is pretty far out in left field, so to speak.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Guns don't kill people, lead and copper do...I'm with Norton on reducing mass murder...If we banned lead and copper and substituted rubber , the death rate from gun violence would diminish....RJ
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
Hedge:
Banning guns seems to me to be just as much of a moral imperative as banning slavery was

We understand that's the way it seems to you. You've made that clear ad nauseum. That's not the way it seems to everyone though.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
That's being a drama queen?


ok Joe, maybe not a good choice of words


but you gotta admit your repetitive little dick associations to gun owners who don't see things as you do is pretty dumb, not relevant, and just an intentional insult

right Joe?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
"...being necessary to the security of a free state..."

To understand the meaning here, one must first understand what the reference of "a free state" is about. It is not about the Federal Govt. It is specifically about the freedom, sovereignty if you will, of the states. The Federalists won the day, and so the Bill of Rights came to be. There was deep seated distrust of a strong central government.

From the synopsis of Dr. Halbrook's book The Founder's Second Amendment (I just ordered a copy:)

"The proposed Bill of Rights was then considered for adoption by the states. No record exists of any criticism of “the right of the people to keep and bear arms,” although the militia clause was taken to task for not actually doing anything. The Bill of Rights was finally adopted in 1791.

Meanwhile, the nature of a well-regulated militia was debated in Congress. The Militia Act of 1792 would require that all able-bodied white males enroll in the militia and provide their own arms. Both the power of the states to maintain militias and the right of individuals to have arms for self-defense, as Chapter 14 shows, were considered basic.

The historical evidence set forth in this book suggests that the Founders had a predilection for both a well-regulated militia and an individual right to have arms, and that they envisioned that the two clauses of the Amendment would complement rather than be in tension with each other."

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
The conservative SCOTUS that upheld Heller sees no problems with regulating gun ownership of private individuals. We heavily regulate full-autos, the same can be done for semi-auto assault weapons. It's ultimately up to SCOTUS to decide what's constitutional.

In fact, SCOTUS has upheld semi-auto assault-weapon bans in the past.
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