The Gun debate sandbox

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1321 - 1340 of total 5834 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Temecula huh?

I used to stop off there to buy Bianchi holsters.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
I'm pretty sure they're gone from Temecula now, along with Gregory packs. Bianchi was bought up by BAE - the mega defense contractor.

Now you can buy your holster and your nuclear submarine from the same company.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
Nick I even highlighted the bogus part of the quote: "More often than not..."


The only anomaly is The District of Columbia,

Yeah, and your "anomaly" has consistently for a long time had the strictest gun control in the U.S.

Your assumption that if a gun is present it will be pulled and used is silly. If that were the case there would be millions of people being shot every day. According to Gunpolicy.org there are 270 million guns in civilian hands in the US, 88.9 guns per 100 people. I suspect that you are in the presence of guns a lot more often than you are aware.

Your statement that if I pull a gun on someone I go to jail is also false. If that person is a mortal threat I have the right to act in self defense. There are serious rules governing this type of action, as there should be (for example shooting someone who threatened you but runs when they see you are armed is not self defense,) but we do still have the right to defend ourselves.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
If that were the case there would be millions of people being shot every day. According to Gunpolicy.org there are 270 million guns in civilian hands in the US, 88.9 guns per 100 people. I suspect that you are in the presence of guns a lot more often than you are aware.

In order for your statistics to be useful, we would need to know the following:

 Percentage of the 270 million guns that are rifles (I'm pretty sure most people don't bring a rifle to Starbucks.)

 Percentage of gun owners who own multiple guns, as you seem to be implying that almost everyone has a gun. (Of gun owners I know, I can't think of any that only own one, there are a several that have a dozen.)

 Percentage of guns that never leave the home, or are only used in very specific situations (e.g. hunting, trip to the range, etc.)

Most of us regular schmucks go about our lives, come and go to work, to restaurants, to the gym, etc. and rarely come within 100 feet of a civilian-owned gun.

I like it that way.



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
You just think you don't.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Oh shit!

Your're right!

They're all around me!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
I'm on year 20 or so of carrying more or less every day..... I've never had to shoot anyone in a civilian situation nor have I had to threaten anyone. And that includes a robbery in a retail store where nobody was injured. I'm not superman nor am I expected, as a civilian, to protect anyone or anything. It's my choice. The laws are pretty clear.

Most level-headed people tend to behave that way if they're carrying a gun or not. I have educated many, many people in proper firearm handling. Over that time I've had only one guy who I would not teach, simply because he wouldn't... or couldn't... pay attention to simple tasks.

It's a shame the "gun nuts" get lumped into tidy bundles. I guess it's the same as "religious nuts", "liberals", "conservatives", "blacks", "whites", ... etc..

The need for such generalizations must be a throwback to our tribal roots.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
Costas hit the nail right on the head when he pointed out the the presence of a gun more often than not escalates the situation from shouts or fisticuffs to gunplay.


If you're concealing and some thug comes from around a corner and socks you in the side of the jaw and starts kicking you and asking for your wallet, you're not gonna ask for a fair fight. You're gonna draw and shoot him as many times as you can from point blank range til he stops.


If you're concealing and some thug comes from around a corner and has a gun and says "give me your wallet", you're most likely going to just give your wallet. If he turns and runs, you better have a good description of him.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
Two dead, crazy speculated to be in body armor still on the loose as of a few minutes ago. Jeez, maybe what would help would be even more guns in the mall.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
CNN is saying a gunman "neutralized".
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
He's been "Neutralized" in the latest report.

Unless you're wearing full body armor, including helmet, most people who practice a few times a month with their conceal carry weapon, can shoot an apple at about 25 yards. Aim for the head. That was the problem with the 1997 North Hollywood Shootout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Given the discussion just above, it's interesting the gunman used a rifle.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
After Colorado a lawyer friend asked me how many people a madman can carry ammo to kill.

Wait till someone goes postal with a 5.7 x 28mm bullpup.
You can easily carry 2K rds.

Climbers are used to dealing with potential lethality, but most people are repelled by it.
Still, nobody gets out alive and the world is a dangerous place.

If you don't want guns within 100' of you then keep your distance!
jstan

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
Wait till someone goes postal with a 5.7 x 28mm bullpup.
You can easily carry 2K rds.

Climbers are used to dealing with potential lethality, but most people are repelled by it.
Still, nobody gets out alive and the world is a dangerous place.

If you don't want guns within 100' of you then keep your distance!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
Given the discussion just above, it's interesting the gunman used a rifle.

Why not? They're scarier. More accurate. Easier to handle groupings. Higher capacity. Higher kill rate. Way more effective than handguns.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
Back to the District of Columbia, it's interesting to note that after the Supreme Court nullified the "no handguns" law there, violent crime dropped significantly while property crimes rose by about the same amount.

Koz I was by no means implying that nearly everyone has a gun, just how many are out there in civilian hands. My wife and I for example have six, 3 long, 2 short that work, 1 short that is an antique.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
That antique works pretty good for fixing Rabbits.


VW's that is.

;-)
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
That's funny. That may well be the last time I fired that pistol...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
"maybe what would help would be even more guns in the mall."

I've hear that guns are banned in the mall. Prohibited. There are signs stating such. You are welcome to speculate on what would or could have been if the signs were not there stating "Guns prohibited". Regardless, all the honest folks had left theirs in the car safe or at home. As demanded.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
Kris, you are correct in that I misused a figure of speach. Obviously, no can actually know how often a guns presence escalates things. Having personally witnessed two incidents where a minor traffic altercation turned into a shooting no doubt prejudices my point of view. One resulted in two murders, both sent young men to prison for long stays.

What can be known for certain is that if no gun is present, no gunplay will occur. That is what I really meant to say, and I apologize for mis-speaking.

As you noted in D.C. property crimes went up. How many of those were aimed at obtaining a gun via a burglary? And violent crime has been dropping all over the country for years as has been well documented by the FBI, so more concealed weapons in D.C. were not the panacea the gun lobby made them out to be.

The change in gun laws in D.C. roughly coincided with the end of the crack cocaine boom, so there were a lot fewer young men engaged in combat for their corner spots. The demographics of the area have also been changing as some areas that were previously very low income and very high unemployment experienced an influx of the huge numbers of new government employees and contractors brought in by the "war on terror". They had to live somewhere and many very bad neighborhoods underwent significant gentrification as the newcomers sought reasonably priced real estate.

There's no simplistic explanation to be had, no matter how badly the pro-gun faction wants to spin it. The "armed society is a polite society" platitude might be judged against the backdrop of history.

In one of the most well armed parts of the wild West, Tombstone Arizona, you had to surrender your weapons to the law to be allowed into town. It was the only way they were able to curtail the near constant hail of lead the town had been experiencing. If that is your idea of a polite society you should probably move to the Gaza strip.

More guns equal more gun violence and more gun accidents, that's the bottom line. And by the way, I was an avid hunter growing up. by the time I got through the sixth grade I'd bagged two deer, hundreds of rabbits and many hundreds of birds, mostly quail with a fair number of ducks and one pheasant.

I don't hate guns, I actually love to shoot. I stopped hunting as I became more environmentally aware and personally witnessed the numbers of wildlife in my neck of the woods (4 corners) drop fairly dramatically. Now I would much rather see wild animals in the woods than take them home, never to be seen again. The loss of habitat in the West is disturbing and must be reversed. The hunting of top predators doesn't help either. What passes for big game just isn't as big as it used to be.

So don't paint me as a gun hater. I'm just realistic about things. Not many of the NRA crowd can make that claim. The NRA has turned into an anti-government, un-American extremist group in my point of view.

Our country needs to have more reasonable gun policies and we can only get there with considerate discussion. And at this point that seems out of reach of the pro gun lobby. The inability to compromise isn't a starting point for reasoned discussion.
Messages 1321 - 1340 of total 5834 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews