Florida stand Your ground law?

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Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:55pm PT



Nobody will retry this case after Z. is acquitted, possibly by a hung jury.


Jessguess, with a hung jury, I think it will go to retrial.

You have to admit though, he looks real thuggish in that photo above.


I think Gary is kidding. Trayvon looks kinda delicate compared to high school "toughs" I remember. But the tiny girlfriend does make him look very tall.

Yes, I think many teen boys do talk about fighting...perhaps not the science and tech group, but in general male student body, there's a pecking order based on physical prowess.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
Yes, I think many teen boys do talk about fighting...perhaps not the science and tech group, but in general male student body, there's a pecking order based on physical prowess.

I'm not sure if you intended it, but your statement about teens talking about fighting seems a little misleading.
Trayvon's texts weren't talking about fighting in the abstract: they were a discussion about a particular fight he's been in, how he'd won that fight, and how he was planning to further confront the loser. The person Trayvon was texting with said Trayvon should stop fighting so much!

If I were on the jury, that would be very interesting information to consider regarding who may have initiated the physical confrontation. But the jury didn't get that information, apparently at least in part because the judge thinks that 7-year olds can hack password protected phones.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
I don't understand why Zimmerman can stand his ground, but Martin can't.
There's the core of it right there.

6 point summation for the prosecution:
a - Zimmerman thought he was "protecting" the neighborhood from the thieves
b - Zimmerman thought he was "deputized" in a sense
c - Zimmerman is a wannabe cop, a vigilante
d - Zimmerman profiled a kid in a hoodie as a bad guy.
e - Zimmerman persisted in tailing TM after the 911 dispatcher told him "we don't want you to do that"
f - How was Trayvon supposed to know the guy confronting him in the night was NOT a thug?

implication: Zimmerman was on a "mission" that night and Trayvon stood HIS ground. Which HE had every right to do.

Which EVERY one of us should have the right to do.
Long ago in a valley far away two drunk lettered athletes followed me in the night. They yelled at me and I turned to face them. One of them threw a punch and hit me in the mouth. I decked him and cleared out before his buddy knew what had happened. Did I mention I think they went for me because I had long hair and a beard they thought I would be easy prey?
I had EVERY right to defend myself. As did Trayvon.

This is precisely why Police are required to wear distinctive uniforms and badges. So you KNOW they have the authority to stop you. Even they don't have the right to automatically shoot you unless they've identified themselves and subsequently you actively resist and they have no other recourse.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Did anyone see the fight Trayvon was texting about, Blahblah?

Maybe he felt insecure about being thinnish and was doing some empty bragging.

I've heard men, young and old boast about epic tavern fights in which they were victorious...but they never come to work with marks on their face so...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Did anyone see the fight Trayvon was texting about, Blahblah?

Maybe he felt insecure about being thinnish and was doing some empty bragging.

I've heard men, young and old boast about epic tavern fights in which they were victorious...but they never come to work with marks on their face so...

Trayvon was only "thinnish" by the standards of obese Americans (a la our friend Zimm, who merited a 0.5 on athletic scale of 1 to 10). You can bet in most of the world Trayvon would be looked at as the well nourished, healthy guy he was (take a look at the pic of him without his shirt on).

I calculated Trayvon's BMI--it's 22. Not underweight or even close to it--really a perfect physical specimen.
As I've said before, Trayvon's very close in size to Alex Honnold, except I'd guess Trayvon outweighs Honnold by 5 or 10 pounds.
Trayvon was built like a high level middleweight boxer, looks a little like a young Bernard "The Executioner" Hopkins.

Of course it's possible Trayvon was lying about his fighting (maybe he lost the fight, maybe he wasn't even it), just like the prosecution star witness was an admitted serial liar and Zimm was caught in some lies. So with all these liars, can't you find some reasonable doubt?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
who needs a judge and jury when you gotsd supertaco!

the supreme idiots court of condemnation.

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
So with all these liars, can't you find some reasonable doubt?


Yes, I enertain some doubts he intended to shoot Trayvon (in the beginning). But no doubt he pushed the encounter without authority and brought a firearm into it.

The mistakes Trayvon may have made did not justify being shot...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
I'd guess Trayvon outweighs Honnold by 5 or 10 pounds.
Trayvon was built like a high level middleweight boxer

You'd guess, huh? Well that's scientific.

The medical examiners report: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/martin.autopsy.pdf

Cites him as 5'11, 158.

That is pretty scrawny.Honnold, btw, is about the same height and 160ish, so actually heavier than TM. And Honnold is scrawny too, I've bouldered with him and he is thin and does not strike an imposing or even particularly muscular or athletic figure.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
You'd guess, huh? Well that's scientific.

The medical examiners report: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/martin.autopsy.pdf

Cites him as 5'11, 158.

That is pretty scrawny.Honnold, btw, is about the same height and 160ish, so actually heavier than TM. And Honnold is scrawny too, I've bouldered with him and he is thin and does not strike an imposing or even particularly muscular or athletic figure.

I'd guess because I don't know exactly how much Honnold weighs. Sounds like you don't either, except to say "160ish," so he's just about exactly the same size as Trayvon, if you're right.
Th two best climbers I've personally spent a lot of time climbing with are about 5'10, low 150s, and about 6', about 140. The 6' guy is "scrawny," naturally thin, but really more wiry. The 5'10 guy is just thin and muscular, with low body fat and thin legs. Either one of them would easily kick "average Joe's" ass in a fight--they're rangy, athletic guys.

If you don't think Honnold is muscular, what are you, a bodybuilder? I thought this was a climber site.

Poor scrawny guy &#40;actually a very fit looking Alex Honnold&#41;
Poor scrawny guy (actually a very fit looking Alex Honnold)
Credit: blahblah

Oh and if you want to be Mr. Science: what's your support for saying 5'11, 158 is "pretty scrawny"? Especially if you extremely low body fat, which Trayvon appeared be, based on pics I've seen.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
if you think that you have a right to attack someone because you perceive that he is following you and he asks you what you're doing, you just may wind up a dead idiot.

Yeah, I'm sure everyone here teaches their teenagers to engage in conversations with strangers who follow them at night. Besides, that isn't what happened.

Look at the record you dipsh#t. Zimmer was following him and had convinced himself he was "up to no good or on drugs or something." Based on what? Skin color, age, and a hoodie? Absolutely NOTHING in the record shows that Martin did anything to indicate he was "up to no good or on drugs or something."

Zimmer went around the building to confront Martin apparently because "these as#@&%es always get away." How did Zimmer determine the teenage boy was an as#@&%e trying to get away with anything?

Martin had no where to run. He stood his ground... or perhaps tried to get around Zimmer, which would clearly start a fight when it involves an overzealous wannabe cop with an attitude problem.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Martin had no where to run. He stood his ground... or perhaps tried to get around Zimmer, which would clearly start a fight when it involves an overzealous wannabe cop with an attitude problem.

Zimm had already called the cops. If Trayvon would have just stood there, they could have both stood there until the cop arrived. And then Zimm would have looked like the fool that he in fact was.
Or Trayvon could have called the cops, his dad, his bro, or he could have asked the girlfriend he was talking to to call for help. Remember he was talking on his cell phone as he was being "chased" (actually followed, in part) by Zimm, and he had "escaped" Zimm before the final confrontation. What happened between the initial following, the "escape," and the final conflict is anyone's guess.

The girlfriend on the phone with Trayvon didn't even try to find out what happened to Trayvon for days--is that consistent with her having a conversation with someone who seemed to be in imminent fear for his life? Or someone was mad at a "cracker" who was dissing him and needed his fat ass kicked?

If you think Travyon tried to dart around Zimm or something and Zimm grabbed him, I suppose that's possible, but there isn't any evidence to support that. All of the evidence is that, at the end, Trayvon was on top, Zimm on the bottom, getting the crap beat out of his obese ass by a much more athletic guy.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Blahblar, Honnold himself cites 160 as his BW. Not guessing there, just repeating the man himself's claim.

You seen many 5'11" 160 dudes? They are skinny. Not that hard to figure out, not really a matter of debate to most. I could make most skinny people loook pretty buff with a 10min iron pumping session, some oil, and harsh overhead lighting.

In any case, enjoy the speculation.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Zimm had already called the cops

yes, and what was it they told him not to do again?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Zimm had already called the cops.

Yes, and they told him not to follow Martin.

If Trayvon would have just stood there, they could have both stood there until the cop arrived.

How do you know he didn't just stand there? How do you know he didn't try to walk around Zimm? How do you know Zimm didn't have his weapon drawn when he came around the building? You don't. All you know is Zimm followed him, confronted him, and shot him. Why? Skin color, age, and a hoodie... NOTHING ELSE. He could have tailed him, saw where he lived, and directed the cops there. Instead he came AROUND a building to get in his path and confront him.

Do you have kids? My niece and nephew, whose parents are police officers, would NEVER just stand there when a stranger follows them in a car and then comes around a building, blocking their safe passage to home.

You are a complete fuking idiot.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
Norton, you're a little late to the party, but check out Zimm's actual response, the follow up question about which way TM was headed, etc.
It gets complicated. Anyway, as the dispatcher testified, they have no right to "tell" people what to do, and they don't "tell" people what to do.

As I've written before, Zimm shouldn't have followed TM, he does have moral culpability (if not legal culpability, which remains to be seen). If Zimm does somehow get acquitted, I kind of hope TM's family does bring a successful civil suit (the different burden of proof is big).


ElCap--I'll admit TM was a pretty lean dude if you admit that Zimm is a fat-as-crap, short little butterball. So what was the point again?



Do you have kids? My niece and nephew, whose parents are police officers, would NEVER just stand there when a stranger follows them in a car and then comes around a building, blocking their safe passage to home.

You are a complete fuking idiot.

If your niece and nephew are as fuking retarded as you are, perhaps they would just carry on a conversation with whoever they were talking to on the phone and not ask them for help, and not call for help themselves.
And then they'd probably attack whoever was following them, instead of trying to run away.
IQ is genetic in part, yes?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Stand your ground: A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

1) a)“Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person which causes substantial emotional distress to that person and serves no legitimate purpose.

2) A person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/

Zimmerman was engaged in an unlawful activity. Therefore, "stand your ground" does not apply.

You lose again blahbullsh#t, but you're no doubt used to it by now.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
What'd Zimmermann do that was unlawful? ( before he shot Martin )
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
You can read, right?

1) a)“Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person which causes substantial emotional distress to that person and serves no legitimate purpose.

2) A person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Hey, Wessy cracked the case! Zimm can't use SYG, because he's guilty of stalking!!
Oh wait, Zimm wasn't even charged with stalking. And the prosecution never even argued that Zimm wasn't entitled to assert self-defense based on unlawful activity, or that Zimm engaged in any unlawful activity other than shooting Trayvon.
Sorry, wrong again. At least you're consistent.

How about giving some safe-streets lessons to your nieces and nephews: tell them when they're strolling around chatting on their phones and see they're being followed, don't tell the person they're talking to call for help or terminate the call and call for help themselves, just chill out for a few minutes, and if you see the guy following you again, it's time to attack!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Norton, you're a little late to the party,

actually, blah

I have read every post on this thread from the beginning in addition to watching the trial on TV

however, I have not posted until recently as I did not feel I had a comprehensive understanding of the facts from both sides until the trial was very nearly over

maybe I should have just jumped in along with everyone else and decided way back in time?
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