Florida stand Your ground law?

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tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 20, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
What are your thoughts on this? I find it pretty effin disturbing in the way it seems to be implemented? Sounds like a loophole where anyone can claim they were afraid as justification for killing someone. It seems to have removed the whole thing where you have to prove that a life was actually in iminent danger and that the perp had the means and intentions to take a life. In Fla it seems that all you have to say is that you were afraid so you wasted him in self defense..

In the recent Zimmerman case you have a wanna be cop who could not make the force due to being Rejected roaming the streets armed looking for troubble. He spots a victim, stalks that victim and kills him then claimes he was afraid for his life? WTF
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
Terrible law. Castle Doctrine are understandable. This though? Not good.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
"Stand your ground" doesn't apply here.

There's a difference between standing your ground, and looking for trouble.

This Zimmermann guy was looking for trouble.

I don't know why he hasn't been arrested
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
You should post the text of the law itself, very disturbing. As I read it, if the shooter isn't convicted of criminal charges, then the family can't even bring a wrongful death suit in civil court.

And yeah, Zimmerman murdered that kid. Unreal that he isn't in custody.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
You can make a case for the dead teen to be in fear of his life and allowed to use deadly force against his killer, but you can bet he would be in jail now if he did. The stand your ground law should not apply here. Zimmerman was told by 911 not to pursue. So terribly sad.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
Read one piece today that outlined a few other instances in FL similarly troubling where the shooter also wasn't arrested based on this law. Scary stuff. I bet Texas is happy having the focus taken off of them. :/
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
the whole thing makes me sick..
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
From: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

The 2011 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

View Entire Chapter
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
History.—s. 1, ch. 2005-27.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
Here's some from further down the legal text (sec 776.032, (3))

"(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1). "

So they essentially immunize the guy against civil suit if they don't prosecute on the criminal side.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
#3 is the loophole. the presumed to be in iminent danger part is way to vauge. Anyone can presume anything.. Seems like FL has no interest in checking the facts to see if there was actually a real threat to human life VS a Precieved threat.

Put this in climbing terms; Anyone who precieves that a route is dangerous may add as many bolts as nessicary to make said route safe. There would be G rated 5.5 crack climbs getting retro bolted by some pansy assed wanker who precieved them to be dangerous....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 20, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
it sounds reasonable to me. Obvoiusly things are getting worse in Florida, and states rights should be a foremost consideration. #3 specifies "attacked".
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 06:14am PT
Ron, it seems like people are able to say that they were afraid for their life without haveing to prove that their life was actually in real jeprody. Precieved danger vs actual danger are very often two entirely different things.

How would you feel if one of your unarmed children was killed by a hair trigger pansy assed wimp just because that wimp was afraid? how would you feel if the shooter walked?

Without language in there that killers need to prove that they were actualy in real danger it seems like a licence to murder? Anyone can precieve any damn thing they want regardless of the reality of the situation and the cops won't touch it because the shooter will walk as long as they say they precieved danger?

It is precisly crap like this that makes me feel that the NRA are a bunch of cluless whack jobs.
I have no problem with a stand your ground law as long as you can prove that the person you shot #1 had the means to kill you or other innocent person. #2 had the intent to kill. Without the requirement of proof that there was actual danger = the means to kill and the intent to kill the law is literaly a licence to kill anyone you want as long as you say you were afraid of them. That is certainly how the law seems to be interpreted in FL if you read some of the previous cases.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 06:45am PT
Reily. they have bunch of other cases down there in FL that had not made the mainstream news.. Its the words (Precieved danger) that creates the loophole.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 21, 2012 - 08:04am PT
The law is idiotic.

First, it can easily be abused by someone wishing to commit premeditated murder. Want to get rid of someone? Follow them out to their car when they are alone, shoot them, and claim you got into an argument and "felt threatened."

Second, it ignores the basic reality that in an argument, both sides may "feel threatened." So any time an argument breaks out, the guy who shoots first wins. It's an invitation to escalate every minor dispute into a shooting match.

Third, it gives the word of the shooter precedence over other evidence. Dead people cannot dispute a shooter's claim of "feeling threatened." The law encourages shooters to make sure any witnesses are killed.

In this particular case, it turns out that Zimmerman failed to kill one one the witnesses (girlfriend on the phone.) That's what will likely get him.






crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Mar 21, 2012 - 09:42am PT
This particular case has very little to do with the law you are arguing about. It is apparent that the shooter likely chased and attacked the victim, and if this is the case the new law is not applicable.

Similarly, if the shooter's story were true, that is, if in fact he were retreating and had been jumped and attacked from behind, his right to self-defense, established in law long ago, would protect him - even without any new laws.

In general a very young and slight man unarmed, eating a snack and returning home from a store would not be found a threat to a larger man pursuing him. This fact alone makes the law in dispute irrelevant without some further evidence.

The real issue here is why the police and prosecutors in this case do not wish to investigate or pursue it. Perhaps it is a matter of them having come to know the shooter and treating him as if he were an inside member of their community. Perhaps it is racial. But this is the real issue. Fewer people would object to the results if the victim were much larger, had an established criminal record, and the shooter's story of being attacked were more credible.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 21, 2012 - 09:54am PT
America..... the land where policy supporting the creation of a civil society is sacrificed in favor of those supporting antiquated notions of the old wild west.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:16am PT
Can't find it now, but gangsters have been let off the hook after shoot outs due to this law. By the law, once a person claims they acted in self-defense, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. And as this case proves so far, you can pursue someone and then kill them if they turn on you. The law states you only have to believe you're threatened:
:776.012 Use of force in defense of person. — A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/19/3501457/floridas-self-defense-law-complicates.html
The state self-defense law eliminated a citizen's duty to retreat before using deadly force to confront an attacker. Police and prosecutors statewide have said the the law fosters a shoot-first, ask-questions-later mentality.

The law includes a provision that grants "immunity" from prosecution or civil lawsuits if a person is deemed to have acted in self-defense, though lawmakers did not clearly specify exactly who bestows the immunity.

After a series of court battles across the state, the Florida Supreme Court in December 2010 ruled that judges should be the ones to consider evidence under a looser standard than the familiar "beyond a reasonable doubt" one used before juries in criminal cases.

Since then, South Florida judges have dismissed charges in several murder cases in which defendants sought immunity based on the law.

Last month, however, Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Milton Hirsch denied the immunity claim of a Florida International University student who stabbed an unarmed football player to death during a brawl.

The law "does not justify the use of deadly force in response to threats or shows of force of any and ever kind. In ordinary circumstances a push or a slap may be met with a push or a slap, or perhaps a punch - but not with a bullet," Hirsch said.

Miami-Dade defense attorney Jeffrey Weiner, who recently had a murder case thrown out by a judge on self-defense grounds, said: "The shooter must be able to point out, preferably with witnesses, that he wasn't just seeking vigilante justice."

Still, legal experts say Zimmerman, if arrested, would probably be charged with manslaughter, not murder - and would have a strong defense under Florida's law, with a judge needing to decide first whether he is immune from prosecution.

"I think absolutely this is a case that squarely falls within the Stand Your Ground immunity statute," said defense attorney Bill Matthewman. "Even if he shouldn't have been following 1/8Martin3/8 he's not committing a crime and he can stand his ground."


This just in from Indiana. Senate Bill 1:
"Self defense. Specifies that a person may use reasonable force against any other person in certain circumstances. Provides that a person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to: (1) protect the person or a third person from unlawful force; (2) prevent or terminate the public servant's unlawful entry into the person's dwelling; or (3) prevent or terminate the public servant's criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession. Specifies that a person is not justified in using force against a public servant if: (1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime; (2) the person provokes action by the public servant with intent to injure the public servant; (3) the person has entered into combat with the public servant or is the initial aggressor; or (4) the person reasonably believes the public servant is acting lawfully or is engaged in the lawful execution of the public servant's official duties. Provides that a person is not justified in using deadly force against a public servant whom the person knows or reasonably should know is a public servant unless: (1) the person reasonably believes that the public servant is acting unlawfully or is not engaged in the execution of the public servant's official duties; and (2) the force is reasonably necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person."
Lightenin'

Gym climber
Muleshoeville
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:27am PT
Seems entirely reasonable to me. If someone is forceably entering my house or car I'm gonna be afraid for my life. If I had a gun, I wouldn't think twice about it. If I am elsewhere and someone attacks me, I'm gonna be afraid in that situation, too. People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:32am PT
You can shoot someone if you BELIEVE they are going to attempt to harm you.

There is a difference.
Lightenin'

Gym climber
Muleshoeville
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:37am PT
The way I read it is says you have to be attacked or someone has to be entering. That says to me that there has had to have been overt behavior by someone else. I may have missed it, but don't see belief?
WBraun

climber
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:47am PT
The way all laws are set up in the world are:

You can shoot anyone anytime you want anywhere.

You just have to make sure you do it right ...... :-)
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:50am PT
I think that regardless of the self-defense issue, any time someone kills someone else, they should be locked up that minute. There needs to be a period of time when the cops can investigate the incident so that they can determine if the shooter is completely nuts and likely to run around killing more people. Maybe it's cool to let someone go a few hours later but they should have initially treated this like a murder until there was any evidence at all either way.

The fact that the victim was unarmed and going about his lawful business seems like enough reason to throw out the self-defense claim immediately. There should be no "I'm a pansy with a gun and got myself into this situation because I'm an ass" defense!

It would suck for the victim but society may have been better off if this guy found another gun and killed another person a few hours later. That would have gotten rid of this concept of going scot-free after a shooting.

Dave
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

Many readers have asked whether, given the 911 recordings, a case against Zimmerman would be easier than most homicides in which "self-defense" is cited by a defendant. In Florida, the answer probably is no: The courts' interpretation of the stand-your-ground law has been extremely broad—so broad that, to win an acquittal, a defendant doesn't even have to prove self-defense, only argue for it, while to win a conviction the prosecution has to prove that self-defense was impossible.

Numerous cases have set the precedent in Florida, with the courts arguing that the law "does not require defendant to prove self-defense to any standard measuring assurance of truth, exigency, near certainty, or even mere probability; defendant's only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable." When a defendant claims self-defense, "the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense." In other words the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt never shifts from the prosecution, so it's surprisingly easy to evade prosecution by claiming self-defense.

This has led to some stunning verdicts in the state. In Tallahassee in 2008, two rival gangs engaged in a neighborhood shootout, and a 15-year-old African American male was killed in the crossfire. The three defendants all either were acquitted or had their cases dismissed, because the defense successfully argued they were defending themselves under the "stand your ground" law. The state attorney in Tallahassee, Willie Meggs, was beside himself. "Basically this law has put us in the posture that our citizens can go out into the streets and have a gun fight and the dead person is buried and the survivor of the gun fight is immune from prosecution," he said at the time.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Mar 21, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
It is worth noting that there has been more than a two-fold increase in "justifiable homicides" in Florida since the law went into effect. Most places "justifiable homicide" is a very rare determination (unless it's cops doing the shooting--a whole 'nother story)but it now seems to be pretty routine in Florida. The law in every state, including Florida pre-"stand your ground" allows the use of force, even deadly force, in self-defense in certain strictly-defined circumstances. By enacting this vast expansion of pre-existing law Florida (and probably some other states as well?) has effectively given a license to kill to armed yohos like Zimmerman--and there are plenty of others like him out there (and maybe even a few on here).
Barbarian

Trad climber
New and Bionic too!
Mar 21, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
I'm afraid for my safety with laws like this on the books. What are the implications of that?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Heinlein predicted it. The world gets more and more dangerous.
Being out in public puts you at risk.

Lock yourselves in. Work from home. Order food.

Climb in your dreams...





My prediction;
Zimmerman gets convicted of violating the civil rights of the kid in federal court, then gets taken to the cleaners in civil court but the victim's family never collects half.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
I'm afraid for my safety with laws like this on the books. What are the implications of that?

When "stand your ground" laws are combined with more and more concealed carry laws, the implications are pretty clear.

If somebody gives you a dirty look on the street, you can just cap their ass. You believed they were a threat. They might be carrying, after all.

I once knew a group of NRA and CRPA competition shooters. When they were all sitting around together, the main topic of conversation was hoping somebody would screw with them on the street. They were all drooling to plug somebody. Now these new laws are bringing paradise to their door.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
Thanks, Gary, for the clarification. The broad interpretation of the "fear" defense makes the law's application irrational, if not immoral. It sickens me to think that a Zimmerman can escape prosecution, much less, As El Cap points out, that he's potentially even insulated from civil liability. I wonder if federal Civil Rights legislation applies. That would at least trump the immunity from civil suits.

In contrast, I think someone inside a dwelling or a car has every right to believe he or she is in imminent danger of great bodily harm if someone else is trying to enter forcibly. People entering forcibly should have to overcome a very high burden of proof to show that an occupant used unreasonable force. Frankly, a law like Florida's seems, to me, perfectly justified if confined to forcible entry of occupied dwellings or cars, or walking into your home and finding an intruder. The Zimmerman situation, however, looks like a travesty right out of the worst days of the post-Reconstruction South.

John

Edit: Piton Ron, I see you beat me to it.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
In contrast, I think someone inside a dwelling or a car has every right to believe he or she is in imminent danger of great bodily harm if someone else is trying to enter forcibly.

You betcha. John, your a professional, how do you think this will evolve?

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
Gary,

There have been plenty of civil cases in which an intruder has sued the homeowner for excessive force. In most places, there's no presumption or immunity to help the homeowner. The intruder usually loses, but so does the homeowner, because the allegations require an expensive defense, and there is no "loser pays" shifting of attorney's fees.

Contrast that with the booby-trap cases. For example, an owner of a seldom-used cabin rigs a spring gun while he or she is absent. Intruder opens the door and gets shot. The homeowner loses in that situation, because he or she was not at bodily risk.

The real problem with the Florida law is section (3) which, as you point out, basically allows violence whenever and wherever you feel like it. If one Zimmerman-type killed another Zimmerman-type, that would just be Darwinian promotion of natural selection. When, on the other hand, Zimmerman kills a completely innocent victim . . . I don't even need to finish the sentence. The unspeakable injustice is obvious.

John
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
Hopefully the Feds will come in and prosecute this jackass and send him to prison for most of the rest of his life.

Edit: Good prediction, Ron.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
The state attorney in Tallahassee, Willie Meggs, was beside himself. "Basically this law has put us in the posture that our citizens can go out into the streets and have a gun fight and the dead person is buried and the survivor of the gun fight is immune from prosecution," he said at the time.

This law favors whoever is the fastest to draw and shoot, so long as is able to shoot to kill. Dead men tell no tales.

This law is good, if are a killer.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
How fast would the guy have gone to jail if he was black and shot a white kid?

There are some freaking ignorant SOB's overseeing the application of our laws in some of these places. His ass should be in jail until he can prove he was in danger. He F-ing killed an unarmed kid on a public street for Buddhas sake!

I lived in Georgia for a while and love the South for the most part, but some of them haven't joined the 21st century yet.

Pretty soon some will bust a cap on you for flipping them off.

They should fence off part of Texas for people that want to believe they still live in the Wild West. They can carry in the open and kill eachother for any percieved insult.

BTW - If someone breaks into my house, they better see me first. I don't have a gun, but I have a pretty sharp samurai sword and won't hesitate to remove the threat or portions there of.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
Sean Connery's line in The Untouchables comes to mind when I hear somebody boast of their ability with a hand held edged weapon.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Yep. Not a boast though. It is all I have ;-)

Haven't heard of too many people getting accidentally killed with sword.

Just a personal choice.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Fattrad,

I remember. I lived in LA during the peak of the road rage shootings.

I remember a movie with Steve Martin (I think the programable freeway signs were talking to him) where he told the passenger "Cover me, I am going to change lanes".

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
There have been numerous cases in So. Calif. of shots fired over getting flipped off on the freeway.

The difference, fattrad, is that in Florida, and the other states that are adapting this, the shooter will get off. A car is a deadly weapon, after all.

The Indiana law is interesting, too. You can plug "public servants" entering your house. The Republicans that passed it say it won't do what it says, but...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
In Cal they shoot for flipping the bird but in Florida they don't bother flipping off drivers because they are mostly octogenerians who can't see to begin with.

You might not be safe from pistolero vigilantes walking around the neighborhood but the roads are worse!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 22, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
You says that he is following Trayvon and then at 2:18 mutters "f*#king coons." You can clearly hear it.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2012/03/22/probably_a_bad_idea_to_mutter_a_racial_slur_on_a_911_call.html

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/florida-shooting-focuses-attention-on-stand-your-ground-law/

Trevor Dooley stood his ground, brandished his gun and killed a man after an argument over local skateboarding rules in a Florida town.

He argued in court last month that he had a right to do so under the state’s Stand Your Ground law...

...the law is currently being invoked as a key defense by Mr. Dooley.

The man he killed, David James, had been playing basketball with his 8-year-old daughter in September 2010 when he and Mr. Dooley began arguing over whether a boy on a skateboard had a right to ride on the court, according to an account in The St. Petersburg Times. There was a “physical confrontation,” the police said, during which Mr. Dooley fired the weapon he was carrying, killing Mr. James in front of his daughter.

“You agree you do not want to go to prison for killing David James?” he was asked at the trial, according to televised footage from the courtroom.

“I don’t think I should,” responded Mr. Dooley, who has been charged with manslaughter but says he feared for his life during the altercation with Mr. James.

His lawyers are seeking to have the case dismissed by a judge on the grounds that the Stand Your Ground law permitted him to defend himself with deadly force...

...Q: Can an unarmed person legally pose a deadly threat?

In case after case during the past six years, Floridians who shot and killed unarmed opponents have not been prosecuted. Former National Rifle Association President Marion Hammer, a major force behind the law’s passage, cited her own size and age in 2006 interview with the Sentinel about what she would do if confronted by a younger and larger aggressor.

“I’m 4-foot-11. I’m 67 years old,” she said. “If you came at me, and I felt that my life was in danger or that I was going to be injured, I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot you.”
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
I changed my mind...Let's fence off Florida instead of Texas.

In recent times, "stand your ground" laws extended this concept in many states beyond the home to any place where a person might lawfully be found, such as a bar or a public sidewalk. Florida's version enacted in 2005 (over the objection of many in law enforcement) is one of the most far reaching.
The law states that a person "who is attacked" anywhere he is lawfully present has "no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."
Importantly, a person cannot invoke this provision if he is "engaged in unlawful activity" or "initially provokes the use of force against himself." Finally, in Florida, once self-defense becomes an issue at trial, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense -- a heavy burden.

Read more: http://www.wxii12.com/news/30728543/detail.html#ixzz1pspnyytD

"reasonably believes"...wow...there is something that is not open to intepretation.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
How does one claim to be attacked, when he's the one doing the attacking?

This law doesn't apply here.

I don't understand why this guy hasn't been arrested.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
This case presents the road-map for any would-be murderers in Florida: simply make sure your victim isn't around to contradict you.

At best, it's vagueness will obstruct or deter prosecution of actual criminals, at worst, this law and the coverage of this case could achieve the real intent of the NRA who proposed it; even more gun sales.

TE



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
again the real huge loophole is in #3 he or she precieves the threat of grave bodily harm. Seems like any good lawer can get you off the hook with that preception clause.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Something most of the tacos can agree upon!

It's a terrible law.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
Yep, the taco agrees on two things- North Dakota sucks and you should not be able gun people down for no reason.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
I believe in Draw first....

If you feel threatened, you should be able to draw and hold them for a LEO to come. Obviously if they pull something on you or keep coming at you or your property or persons, then you use force. If they run, well, still call a LEO or get the heck out of there.

It's all circumstantial of course. I honestly think Zimmerman knew what he was doing when he called the cops. I was another way in his mind of justification. He should be charged with 1st degree murder. It was premeditated as soon as he called. Why else would he have continued if the cop told him to stop following him?

I don't believe everyone should be able to own a gun, or carry one. There's nothing practical you can really do about it... But if I know dangerous people out there are carrying, i'd feel much better carrying.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
the law isnt so different from any other states regulations regarding the carrying of concealed weapons. If some one is in my home, i have a free pass to blow holes in them, if im downtown and PERCEIVE a threat to my or anyone elses life i have a free pass to blow holes in them.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
LOL Ron, the Florida law is way different from most states that do not have a 'stand your ground' law like California. In CA if you have an alternative to deadly force, like not stalking your victim as Zimmerman did, you are required to use it.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
"Officer, all I had was my phone, and my wasr-4. I was on the phone with you guys while the guy was coming into my window with his pistol first."


This whole racial debate is pissing me off more than the law. Who cares what the guy's race is? Oh, he's white. It must be racist. NO! He's Mexican, Mexicans aren't racist!

Does anyone know where the young kid was shot on the body? Chest? Back? Head?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
Ron, you are a sick man. And I am a gun owner and former IPSC shooter.
There is a HUGE difference between a precieved threat and an actual threat. Any paranoid wanna be gunfighter can precieve a threat from just about anyone. If there is an actual iminenet threat as in the perp has both the intention and the MEANS to snuff you I am all for giveing the perp a dirt nap. Shooting people just because you are afraid of them is pathetic.
You pop someone because you are a pussy with an itchy trigger finger and that gun turns out to be a cell phone you deserve to do serious long term hard time.
Gene

climber
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence. State alcohol agents said Zimmerman pushed them while they were arresting a friend of his during an underage drinking operation at a bar. Zimmerman avoided a conviction by going into a pretrial program that is offered to people with no prior arrests.
http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/246445/19/George-Zimmerman-shooter-in-Trayvon-Martin-case

This guy had a concealed carry permit? Habitual 911 caller? Packing heat as a Neighborhood Watch guy?

He sounds like a guy who might feel his life was threatened by his own shadow. Told not to follow Trayvon but did anyway? Whacked the kid. Something is very wrong here. The FL law, the concealed carry permit, the whatever…

Now, what did Trayvon do to merit his early demise? Remind me.

Sheesh!

g
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Actually TMC, there is an important element of the law most non-attorneys ignore.

To commit a "crime" the perpetrator must have criminal intent.
If Ron is downtown and a teenager flashes what turns out to be an airsoft gun tucked in his pants.
Ron perceives a threat, verbal or physical.
Shoots the stupid kid.

He hasn't committed a crime because there was no mens rea (criminal intent).
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
Ron, you are a sick man. And I am a gun owner and former IPSC shooter.
There is a HUGE difference between a precieved threat and an actual threat. Any paranoid wanna be gunfighter can precieve a threat from just about anyone. If there is an actual iminenet threat as in the perp has both the intention and the MEANS to snuff you I am all for giveing the perp a dirt nap. Shooting people just because you are afraid of them is pathetic.
You pop someone because you are a pussy with an itchy trigger finger and that gun turns out to be a cell phone you deserve to do serious long term hard time.

I read the law and don't see the problem with it. It only applies when the person claiming the benefit of it "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
Deciding what's "reasonable" is a huge part of lots of legal concepts and generally comes down to a jury decision (or a judge decision if the judge decides that a "reasonable" (there's that word again) jury could only see the facts one way. (But a judge cannot enter a conviction in a criminal case, no matter what the facts are.)

It's possible I'm overlooking something and the law is as bad as you all say, but it seems to me that the problem isn't with the law because most (or all) of us don't think what the shooter did was "reasonable," and so the law shouldn't even apply.

As an aside, if ElCap thinks the law means you can't successfully bring a wrongful death action if criminal charges aren't brought (or aren't successful), I believe he's mistaken.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
I have been reading every news story that pops up on yahoo the last few days concerning this issue and there are numerous refrences to AG,s and LEO's saying that they can not prosecute many of the bad shootings simply because the shooter has all the cards stacked in his favor.. the justifiable homicide rate has trippled since the enactment of the law.

Most people will probobly accept that pointing a fake gun at someone during an altrication is a good way to get a dirt nap... when that threat turns out to be imaginary in the form of a bag of skittles or a cell phone then you do need to be held accountable for your actions INMOP..
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
Give him life in jail with no possibility of parole. How the f*ck do you mix up a cup of tea and bag of skittles for anything other than those? Zimmerman could plead insanity, for whatever liberalistic bullshit reason, but he should still get life in prison nonetheless.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
Tradman,, indeed i may be a sick man, but each case is looked at- and self defense is either found or not. A reason for justifiable homicide is either found or not. No different than what already takes place in most all states. That is the repsonsibility of each and every lawfull gun owner to be able to discern real threats. If i would have been at the IHOP that fatefull morning,,i would have indeed decided that was a Real THREAT and would have acted accoridingly. Theres always the retarded that will give a black eye to whatever law, or side there is, but i should remind you that millions of gun owners shot no one today....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Ron, all the pros are saying the FL law is full of loopholes that let bad shooters off the hook. They are saying that the FL law gives the armed citizen much less restrictions than even law enforecement. That is bad juju INMOP.
laughingman

Mountain climber
Seattle WA
Mar 22, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
This tragility cements my theory it is impossible to be young Africa American Male and walk down the street safely in many towns in america without being labeled a threat.
Gene

climber
Mar 22, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
BYOB - Black Youth Out of Bounds.

So sad.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 22, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
I'd say this law is not working out.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
Well I don't want to be on the wrong side of a lawful gun owner who makes a mistake. & it happens a lot.
And as in Florida this case was not look into properly!!!!

As many aren't.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:13am PT
I'm absolutely stunned that anyone can't figure out the fundamental evil of this law or any of your other right to blow somebody away laws. It is pure right wing meanness masquerading as "self defense".

Anybody who can't see that half the population is incapable of responsibly handling a fire arm even when they're sober and thinks their individual "right to bear arms" supercedes any civic responsibility has no brains, or is a right wing dog turd.

Why the hell do think you have speed limits? to enforce fuel economy? No dummy because half the population would be too dangerous without them. So whats the freaking difference with fire arms?

Delusional.
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:19am PT
zimmerman is a wack job. he called 911 forty six consecutive times claiming he was in danger.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:09am PT
Does anyone know where the young kid was shot on the body? Chest? Back? Head?

Chest.


As for the racism angle, CNN did a clean up of the 911 audio and it's pretty clear that the shooter says "these f*#king coons, they always get away" during the call. Unless you believe the man was suddenly confronted by a family of racoons fleeing up a palm tree, I don't see any compelling reason to believe that race wasn't an issue.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:49am PT
Global warming and rising sea levels are going to water down Florida's Stand Your Ground law eventually.

DMT
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 08:49am PT
The law, approved under former Governor Jeb Bush after a big push by pro-gun advocates led by the National Rifle Association, was passed over numerous objections from the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association and state law enforcement officials. Florida's Republican governor, Rick Scott, announced the formation of a task force on Thursday to "thoroughly review" the law in the wake of the Martin shooting.

"Basically it's a law that fixed something that wasn't broken, and then it created a lot of problems," said William "Willie" Meggs, veteran state attorney for the 2nd Judicial Circuit in Tallahassee, the Florida capital.

Republican State Representative Dennis Baxley, one of the authors of the Stand Your Ground law, said it did not protect people who pursued and confronted their victims, as occurred in Sanford, according to lawyers for the parents of the dead teenager.

"That's where he (Zimmerman) stepped out on thin ice away from protection of this statute," he said.

Defending Stand Your Ground, Baxley said that while errors may occur, such as the death of Martin, it was important that the law err on the side of those who fear they are facing "a perceived" threat.

"That's good public policy. I think we have a good statute and I would hate to lose anything in it that protects people from harm. It saves lives," Baxley added. End quote.

This line is what really gets under my skin!

"it was important that the law err on the side of those who fear they are facing "a perceived" threat."

Really! those who fear they are faceing a precieved threat? what a bunch of trigger happy repuglican pansy assed whimps! heck I have stood down and diffused REAL threats, Not PRECIEVED threats without ever haveing to seriously hurt anyone. These tools are simply looking for an excuse to shoot someone.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:58am PT
Bang on Tradman

"Basically it's a law that fixed something that wasn't broken, and then it created a lot of problems,"


classic right wing legislation

"it was important that the law err on the side of those who fear they are facing "a perceived" threat."


and classic right wingers! "Fear" and "Perceived" being the operative words!
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:41am PT
As an individual who works as a trial lawyer, I am highly dubious of any recording (or photograph) that has been "cleaned up"--as there is no real distinction between "cleaning up" and "manipulating". So while, Zimmerman may well have said those words--and probably did--I still can't put too much weight on them for legal purposes. However, in this case, we really don't have to, as Zimmerman's other words and actions clearly show that this was a racially-motivated intentional murder. In his first 911 that evening, he specifically, and unnecessarily mentions Mr. Martin's race, and describes that factor as being one of the reasons that he is suspicious of him. That is followed by his total disregard of the dispatcher's instructions not to follow Mr. Martin. But most disturbing of all is the part of the last call before the fatal confrontation that doesn't require any enhancing. His tone, his staccato way of speaking, and his noticeable breathing are all indicative of someone on the hunt and about to move in for the kill---extremely chilling.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:16am PT
there is no real distinction between "cleaning up" and "manipulating"

While I agree with you that it's not likely to make it in as evidence, I disagree with the above quote. There is a very clear distinction. Using simple band pass filters outside the frequency of the human voice to filter out line noise/static/etc is in no way "manipulation".
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Cold blooded murder!

And the PD are totally spineless and corrupt...
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:58am PT
Elcap--While that may be true, unless you did it yourself, how can you be certain that was the procedure followed by CNN and not some further "enhancing"? While I've had less experience with "sound", I have personally seen a number of supposedly "cleaned-up" digital images that were in fact "altered"--it is amazing what changing a few pixels can do!!!! My main point is, however, that the portions of Zimmerman's calls that didn't require any "clean-up" are damning in themselves--let alone his history of multiple prior unnecessary 911s.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:00am PT
The law that keeps on giving:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706789_miami-judge-stabbing-in-the-back.html#storylink=addthis

Judge Beth Bloom threw out the murder charge against a man who chased a car burglar for more than a block and then stabbed him, killing him.

FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:26am PT
I feel threatened by the NRA may I shoot NRA members?

I was once a member. I left the NRA because it is one of the most corrupt business around.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
what a bunch of trigger happy repuglican pansy assed whimps!

Hey, who are you calling repuglican?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Them florida gunslingers.. The ones who passed the law and those who use it to hunt people.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
I left the NRA because it is one of the most corrupt business around

+1
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Seems entirely reasonable to me. If someone is forceably entering my house or car I'm gonna be afraid for my life. If I had a gun, I wouldn't think twice about it. If I am elsewhere and someone attacks me, I'm gonna be afraid in that situation, too. People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?

Agreed
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
Hopefully the Feds will come in and prosecute this jackass and send him to prison for most of the rest of his life.

It's not a Federal Gov't issue (and Obama should keep his mouth shut). Murder, manslaughter etc occur every day and they are for the most part investigated by local authorities/jurisdictions.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
It is a federal issue when local authorities don't comply with Federal civil rights laws when applying state and local law.

Try this one on Netflix: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095647/

Even the guys who wrote the "stand your ground" law - the ones in the pocket of the NRA - think the guy should be prosecuted.




Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Actually if there is a racial/civil rights issue, it IS a fed issue. Secondly, you seem to have missed the fact that this wasn't inside someone's house, that the killer chased and accosted the kid, and the local DA/PD have not done a damn thing to investigate. They didn't even ID the kid for several days despite his cell phone being there.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Dave, unless or until it is considered a "hate crime" or something of the sorts, I don't see the "civil right violation" in this case.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
If they chose not to prosecute - or even investigate - because the victim was black, it becomes a civil rights issue.

And it sure does look that way.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:51pm PT

Yep, this kid had a hoodie on because it was raining, and skittles in his pocket...be very afraid.

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/22/149126015/a-moms-advice-to-her-young-black-sons

ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
Sounds like Voluntary Manslaughter. If the Feds were to "rightly" get involved, it would be with investigating the LEOs in charge. But since this is starting to get political they will get involved and more spin about gun restrictions and racial dividing will occur.

It's a tragic thing that happened to this young fellow and his family.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
this brochure is clear about the use of deadly force:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/forms/P-00090-DeadlyForce-0911.pdf


it's not a bad law; i don't think there's anything in it that's disagreeable (what's bad is that it needs to be spelled out)

i doubt zimmerman can be charged with murder; likely manslaughter, but a conviction may be difficult because the only witness is dead--who can prove that zimmerman did not fear for his life?


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
I don't think there will be a need to prove anything about whether he feared for his life.

The law as written indicates that the shooter would have to be in a place he was legally entitled to be, and it appears he was in someone's yard, not his own, which I assume would be trespassing.

Seems to me the SYG law doesn't apply in this case, and therefore fear for his life is not a factor. I wonder what a jury will think about his claiming fear for his life when he got out of his car, chased the kid, accosted him, and outweighed him by about 100lb. If I'm on that jury, I ain't buying it.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
I stand by my prediction.

Civil rights is civil rights. There doesn't have to be a hate crime act, but in this case it sure sounds like there WAS.
Gene

climber
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
who can prove that zimmerman did not fear for his life?

The issue is whether Zimmerman had a reasonable fear that his life was in danger. Did he have options that would not have resulted in Trayvon’s death while maintaing his own (Zimmerman's) security? Was he told to butt out by 911? Did he? Were his actions reasonable? Let a jury decide.

g
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Mar 23, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
bookworm said,
who can prove that zimmerman did not fear for his life?

Besides all the other above information...More information the police knew the day of the shooting....Two witnesses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cWwUAbbWnk&feature=related

Two more..

This one is creepy, you can hear the kid yelling for help several times.....then the gun goes off...I feel sick after listening to this. It made me cry thinking about how scared the kid was...no one helped, and the police disregarded the witnesses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc&feature=related
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
Sounds like Voluntary Manslaughter. If the Feds were to "rightly" get involved, it would be with investigating the LEOs in charge. But since this is starting to get political they will get involved and more spin about gun restrictions and racial dividing will occur.

The issue is neither gun restrictions nor racial dividing per se, although the latter is certainly involved. If the races of shooter and shootee were reversed, would there still be no prosecution? Nonetheless, that's only part of the issue.

The Civil Rights Act has enabled prosecutions and civil actions for homocides and violence that could not have taken place under state laws. When an American is deprived of a basic right (i.e. life) because of conflicting state laws, the federal government has a legitimate federal interest, according to the 14th Amendment.

Also, this does not appear to be manslaughter, although I could see a jury reaching that conclusion. To me, Zimmerman's actions demonstrated malice aforethought, which differentiates manslaughter from murder.

One other comment: One of the particularly bizarre things about the Florida law concerns its burden of proof in a civil suit. Normally, the plaintiff's burden is a perponderance of the evidence. By making the criminal case control the civil case, it transforms the plaintiff's burden to one of beyond a reasonable doubt.

John
WBraun

climber
Mar 23, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Geraldo Rivera blames hoodie for Trayvon's death on Fox.

Don't be wearin gangsta clothing he's implying ......
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
local news is reporting the following:

zimmerman's face was bloodied

the screaming on the 911 call is zimmerman

witness who called 911 told police on the scene that he saw "a man in white" on top of and punching "a man in red": martin was wearing white, zimmerman was wearing red

Gene

climber
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
Bookworm,

Links? Sources? Thanks.

g

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
If Zimmerman IS in fact proven that it was self defense, the whole race on race issue is just gonna do a backflip and turn around onto those making a big deal of it...

And Al Sharpton will most likely go home.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
The kid was on the phone with his girlfriend when he was attacked.

A local TV station verified the phone records.

Hard to attack someone when you are chatting on the phone.

Blood on Zimmerman's face? Gee, how did that happen? All he did was shot someone in the chest at close range.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
"It's not a Federal Gov't issue (and Obama should keep his mouth shut). Murder, manslaughter etc occur every day and they are for the most part investigated by local authorities/jurisdictions. "

It becomes a federal issue when it ends up a civil rights violation. But we'll see what the hell they do now with pressure on them. They didn't seem interested in filing charges at all.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?

The irony is this statement is just too much.

Premise: we need to be civil to one another. Exception: But, if we're not, the person asking for civility has the right to shoot and kill the person who allegedly acting uncivil.

That'll teach you to act civil.

This law is proof that the patients are running asylum. Need further proof? Bookworm thinks it's a good law.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
I suspect that in the old days when overtly carrying a deadly weapon was deemed acceptable that people actually were a bit more civil as the consequences for not doing so could be immediate and severe.

We have become a defiant rude self-righteous culture.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
DEADWOOD was more "civil" than the Bay area an most nights.. just sayin..
Urizen

Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
Thanks, Ron. I've been both puzzled and amused over the years by old novels (like those by Walter Scott), full of guys swaggering around armed to the teeth and yet careful to address each other so formally as, "Gentlemen," "Brave knights," or "Cavaliers." You explained it in one sentence.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
Florida is an interesting and f*#ked up state, and quite unique politically. Its the odd place where red neck conservatives swallow their natural prejudice to ally with hispanic Cuban emigres consumed with Red Hated against 'those liberal New Yorkers' in a perpetual effort to stuff ballot boxes and steal elections.

These are the facts. Just like Texas, of COURSE they have whacked gun laws, whaddaya expect?

Funny to see the shifting allegiances based strictly upon a selfish interpretation of 2nd amendment has me laughing out loud, literally.

DMT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
Seems like one eyewitness statementsupports Zimmerman's position and the other one's writen statement does as well.




Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt.

That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old Austin stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

"I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' "

It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground.

The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said.

"When I heard the shot, the screaming stopped," he said.

He then rushed inside and told his sister to call police.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315_1_robert-zimmerman-letter-unarmed-black-teenager

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
There are some parallels to the Tawana Brawley case in the political mob response going on here.
I would say that that example is a poor comparison. Tawana Brawley claimed to be a victim of violence from white supremicists (sp?) to explain her failure to return home by curfew. She inflicted some minor injuries on herself to support her story.

The victim here is DEAD. Moreover, that person may not see any justice given a poorly thought out, poorly drafted law that was heavily supported by a very powerful special interest group and which appears to create a presumption that the person perpetrating the violence was within his or her rights to do so.

The only comparison between the two scenarios I see is that people are proactively rallying around the person they most identify with.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Lets assume they really did have some sort of fight, we still don't know.

One had a gun and other did not.

Why would the one with a gun "fear for his life", as the law apparently requires to act?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
Guns don't take away the fear. They reinforce it. People carry personal protection weapons OUT OF FEAR.

DMT
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
That's an interesting way to look at it DMT.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
Changing nothing about the original event, except reversing the races of the two individuals, and this whole thing would be on no one's radar.
I'm not sure why you would make that statement since I don't believe it's reasonable that anyone would subscribe to that view.

If an armed loser (allegedly) stalked and killed an unarmed individual and was not arrested given a new, controversial law, there would most certainly be a firestorm over the event. Imagine that the stalker were a down on his luck African American and the victim were a blonded headed teenager from a good family. You honestly don't believe that scenario would register on any kind of current events radar?

Edit: BTW, I don't disagree with the view that there are people who will mine such events for political gain, sadly, but don't be naive enough to believe that it will be limited to liberals and African-Americans.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
Take away the word 'weapon' and you have a perfect description of trad climbing.

Fear is sometimes good. Leads to survival.

True enough and just like with trad climbing too much fear is crippling as is a humongous rack. The ones with the biggest racks tend to tote the most fear and travel the least.


DMT
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
the kid was getting stalked, he was trying to run away and hide. that is all pretty darn clear from the texts from his phone. Zimmerman caugt up to him and they had a fight that zimmerman instigated by chaseing the kid. Fight does not go zimmermans way so the pussy pulls a gun and kills the kid. Zimmerman still instigated the whole situation.

If you carry heat you have an obligation to stay out of troubble because ANY physical confrontation you find yourself in is deadly simply because you have that gun on your person. Any physical fight that you do not finish in a knockout quickly will most likly end up being a struggle for your gun if the fight goes to ground. That puts the responsibility to stay out of fights on the CWP carrier. That is what I was taught in the armed guard Courrier class that I took.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
Fear is sometimes good. Leads to survival.


I rest my case.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
Seems that some are now trying to argue that starting a fight that you end up losing makes it OK to kill someone instead of taking your lumps like a man.

Maybe Florida should name it the "Government Protects the Coward" law.

Because that's what Zimmerman and his defenders seem to be claiming.

So much for personal responsibility.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that the guy's name is Zimmerman?
I mean, WTF?
The guy is hispanic. You could even say race is not an issue because he is swarthy skinned, BUT THEN HE GOES AND SAYS "COONS" AND HAS THE NAME ZIMMERMAN.

Crazy world.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
Oh Donald, it isn't you I'm at war with. Its the ignorant and arrogant dog turd right wingers.


Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
Well crafted caveat to keep me from calling you on your BS.


But damned if I won't fight for your right to be wacky as long as you still help people.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Zimmerman?

Yeah even Bob Dylan didn't like the name. This guy shoulda changed it before he went out gunning for coons.

This reminds me of all those "sports" out there who with a pack of dogs, several guns, a tracker and no balls go out and slaughter the innocent aninals walking the earth and grin about it, like they're some way macho dudes.

If Z-man had any fortitude he'd a put down his gat and had a fist fight with the kid. Likewise, those other guys. Why don't they arm up with a knife and go out fight a fair fight with a mountain lion.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
And f*#k guns and this idiotic gun culture..
You need a gun you are a scared pussy..
A real man will still take it away from you and shove it up your a*# anyway...
Maybe that is why ya all need more than one...
But it will never be enough if you are a scared little bitch like this killer.

This is where you lose me, and make me believe you are most likely mentally handicap in some way shape or form.

Who's the real man who's going to take my gun from me? The guy who is breaking into my house?



The "I don't have a gun because i'm not a pussy" scenario.
So I hear a person come up my stairs, okay. Then I hear them break my window. Okay. Then they come in and kill me. Okay.



The "I don't have a gun but holy sh*t i'm scared, I'm gonna tell him I do" scenario.
So I hear a person come up my stairs, okay. Then I hear them break my window. Okay "I GOT A GUN AND I'm NUH-NUH-NOT AFRAID TO USE IT!". He pulls out his gun. They come in and kill me. Okay.

The "I'm a pussy because I own a firearm to protect myself and my property" scenario.
So I hear a person come up my stairs, okay. Then I hear them break m window. Okay *grabs gun and posts behind wall, waits for them to get into a position where they CAN'T draw a gun without me shooting first*, Announces I have a gun and to freeze.

Well, from here, it's in the person breaking into my hands. If he's not a pussy, he's gonna get arrested. If he is a pussy, he's gonna get shot.


Yeah, I guess those pussy gun owners are pussies...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Ron,

His father is white, mother Peruvian.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
+1 for Reiley.
I was standing in line once to get my Hunting licence. This fat slob repuglican NRA wanker gleefully proclaims to his fat kid. " the killing starts tomorrow"

Totally disgusted me.. No honor or respect for the deer giving its life to feed his family just a need to make up for his small penis by killing whatever he can. Pathetic.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
I thought the incident at hand here occurred out on the street not in Z-man's house.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
I was standing in line once to get my Hunting licence. This fat slob repuglican NRA wanker gleefully proclaims to his fat kid. " the killing starts tomorrow"

Totally disgusted me.. No honor or respect for the deer giving its life to feed his family just a need to make up for his small penis by killing whatever he can. Pathetic.

He most likely shot the dear in the head, exclaimed "BOOM HEADSHOT!", packed up the deer, then went home and on the way ate McDonalds.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin?cid=PROD-redesign-right-next
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
I thought the incident at hand here occurred out on the street not in Z-man's house.

If this is referring to my post, I think Zimmerman should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for 1st Degree murder if it's proven it wasn't self defense.

If it is self defense, he should be charged with criminal negligence and obstruction of justice.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
There are lots of brave folks who travel in extreemly hairy circles unarmed. some make it and some don't but no questioning their cajones... Most of the folks who carry probobly do not need to. makes em feel safe or bad assed or whatever but they precieve a threat that is mostly imaginary. Some who carry do have legit reasons. The most legit reason you can find is if you are involved in any kind of domestic issues. You can guard money your whole life and never need a gun but spend 1 day protecting a woman who has just left a bad relationship and you better be ready to roll!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
You can guard money your whole life and never need a gun but spend 1 day protecting a woman who has just left a bad relationship and you better be ready to roll!

Wouldn't that make you a paranoid pussy in Riley's eyes? Carrying a gun to stop a man from beating up or killing a woman.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
An opinion piece from the Charleston Conservative Examiner.

Not exactly a credible source.

Zimmerman weighed 100 pounds more than the kid.

If that version of the story is true, he was getting his ass kicked by someone much smaller than him in a fight that he started himself.

Then he resorts to hiding behind a gun. A complete coward.

And a murderer.

The best part about the Florida "Stand Your Ground" law is that now any person who is even in the vicinity of Zimmerman would reasonably be threatened by presence of this trigger happy, trouble-making, coward. Guess what that means?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Pretty sure wht Riley is getting at is that a large percentage of the gun toteing crowd are makeing up for personal issues by empowering themselfs with guns. In short, they are cowards. Simeler to those who drill their way up climbs that braver men hike in their approach shoes.

There are legit reasons to carry and protecting domestic abuse victims is certainally one of them. It is best to wear a uniform as well as pack heat when doing that kind of work. The uniform helps keep the ex from thinking you are the new BF.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/nbc-obtains-george-zimmerman-voice-mail-28712026.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
If a gun is involved it is always, always bad!
Escalation, anger, wounds, death....

And how is it different with sharp pointy objects or heavy blunt ones?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Michaelb or what ever your name is..

Are you that illiterate you can't tell the difference between a d and a b?

Do you know your A,B,C's? The difference between left and right?


With your story, it's really hard to understand what the hell you're talking about. It just seems like a bunch of rambling back and forth between guns being okay and bad. Make up your mind, or speak literate.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Dude, when you go to post you do not see the previous page so unless you copy and paste the persons name from up thread it is easy to mispell it.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
Excuses for everything here huh?

He's black.
He's white.
He's 100 lbs heavier.
He's 6'2 football player.
He had a gun.
He attacked first.
That's him screaming.
His face is bleeding.

Was anyone there on this website to clear the facts up? Stop jumping to conclusions.

Regardless - There is a dead guy, and the guy who killed him is free, and that set's a lot of people off.

Zimmerman should have NOT followed him as closely to cause suspicion by the "perp" aka Martin.

He should have listened to the police when they said to stop following. With that alone he should be charged with Obstruction of Justice.

People are going to play the race card, there is NOTHING you can do about it. It sucks. It happens. Who knows if it is what drove Zimmerman to judge Martin, most likely given the phone recordings and his heightened sense of paranoia from "them" and "F*cking c...ns." Who really knows?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
woo hoo out to tgt and donald! thanks for keeping up the opposition. somebodies got to do it, eh?

We know you don't mean it. I mean what self respecting climber would wallow in that pigs trough?

Anyway, jolly good work. keep it up.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
Wouldn't expect anything else from repuglicans ;)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
not at all. you guys are great! so consistent

unwavering even

a bastion of ram rod discipline amidst an ocean of liberal chaos.

And as you say, guns freed this nation and continue to do so.

Without choice nuggets like that this thread would have bit the biscuit a while ago.

Hey lets talk about gays for a while. Do you fear them as well?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
ahh, check out my post history, no lurker and not a liberal. I am a red neck gun owner who had to split from the repuglicans when they lost their minds and turned into a bumch of frothing at the mouth mean spirited lunatics with newt at the helm. You guys lost me back when newt went after Clinton for haveing an affair while newt was haveing an affair.... decided that voteing single issue (Gun rights) was insane and I had to look at the whole picture.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
"Make up your mind, or speak literate"

HAHAHAHAHA !
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
Ron,

His father is white, mother Peruvian.

So that means Zimmerman's hispanic, right?
I mean, Obama's black, no?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
Zimmerman should have NOT followed him as closely to cause suspicion by the "perp" aka Martin.

It's been said before, but bears repeating, you are insane.


Martin "perpetrated" the crimes of being black and wearing a hoodie, while some punk tracked and shot him, because he was too much a wimp to do anything else. GFY mikeb.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:43am PT
Geraldo Rivera blames hoodie for Trayvon's death on Fox.

Don't be wearin gangsta clothing he's implying ......

Edit: Joseph and Mary picture keeps disappearing.
Sacrilege?

F*ck Geraldo. F*ck all those folks who are trying to blame the kid.

My wife teaches at a very expensive to attend Catholic High School and everybody wears a hoodie. Mary and Joseph wore 'em. Bob Dylan wears a hoodie, I wear one, and I bet alot of folks who visit this website wear one. F*ck Geraldo, he should know better. F*ckin' Al Capone wore one and if Geraldo would have found him back in Chicago would he have shot him too.

Edit 2:

I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin's death as much as George Zimmerman was


What the f*ck kind of convoluted reasoning is this?

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Mar 24, 2012 - 02:22am PT
The logic and reason of law cannot be turned into an emotional battle cry.

Here we have a title like in a book or movie replace the code of law. Instead of the criminal or civil code of XYZ,123 we have our heart strings pulled with titled nonsense like "Stand you ground law" or "I hurt, real or imagined law" as long as there is a feeling about...something.

The common law worked great for a very long time concerning two wrongs don't make a right. It was always understood that just because someone f*#ked up, it did not give the aggrieved the right to willfully f*#k up unreasonably more in order to win. That's about reasonable force and no more to defend yourself.

You can always pick up your pride and have another day after being humiliated. It's sort of different when your dignity is worth more than the other guy's life... That's where morality takes the lead over ethics defined by stupid logic.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 06:03am PT
Thanks Jim and Reily.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that ocasionaly someone comes along who realy needs a good arse whooping. Sometimes if they get that arse whooping they turn into a better person. Not always but often it works. One of lifes great lessons.
Zimmerman seems like one of those guys. He stalks the kid, chases him causeing a confrontation that perhaps he was loseing. Instead of taking his whooping like a man and learning from it he wimps out and shoots the kid. Pathetic case of bully cowardice. It is just as pathetic and cowardly that some of the hard core Repuglicans try to defend his behavior.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 24, 2012 - 08:24am PT
we have our heart strings pulled with titled nonsense like "Stand you ground law" or "I hurt, real or imagined law" as long as there is a feeling about...something.


Oh boy Jim do you nail the essence of the dark little burnt crisp of the the right wing heart.

Let me stroke my gun, I want to feel it. The weight of it in my arms gives me a hard on
my feelings rule me and that is my right. If I feel you are a threat, thats good enough for me and well to tell the truth ,I kinda like it that way.



" Feelings just lead us on till we know where we're goin' mhmm....


Lorreta Lynn, 1975
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 24, 2012 - 11:14am PT
He spots a victim, stalks that victim and kills him then claimes he was afraid for his life? WTF


Instead of taking his whooping like a man and learning from it he wimps out and shoots the kid.


I'll bet there's at least one more twist to the story before it's over.




Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 24, 2012 - 11:34am PT
I'll bet there's at least one more twist to the story before it's over.


I'll bet that there's shitloads of twists.

What does that have to do with the fundamental flaw of the law in question?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 24, 2012 - 11:52am PT
I find it a bit curious of how "up in arms" some of you are about a law that is quite specific in wording. ONE incident getting all this attention as how many others died LAST NIGHT from gun play?? The only major difference between florids law and the rest of the country is the stnad your ground addition. What that means to me is IF some nare-do-well attempts to attack me or mine, instead of having to high tail it out of there if a chance arises, i can now just go ahead and plug him w/o having to evacuate the area and thus remove a threat from the next potential victims...

We had a case in Reno not to long ago of a lady with a small child who some jackwagon attempted to rob in a parking lot. She took out her 9mm and blew holes in him. She faced a trial over that- and one of the defenses arguemnets was that she had "room to escape". I personally thought it went down perfect and so did the judge...
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
So Ron,

If Mrs. Ninemillimeter's parking lot bullets kept going through the robber and found a place in you or yours' head, how happy would you be at the judge's reasoning ? Collateral damage is a white wash term that realy means someone f*#ked up.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
Well first,, its against the odds that a 9mm round will pass through a perp, especially hollow points, which is why its a good protection round. The reason a lot of police now use fourty cals is due to 9mm rounds NOT penetrating well enough.. The lady "might" have been able to out run the perp,, but NOT with a three year old by her side. She was thinking of her CHILD, not herself. She removed a societal threat and did not let him go onto the next victim.. IF a guy is going to rob a young woman with a three year old child he got exactly what he deserved with the exception that the woman needs to learn critical center mass and head shots a wee better. That way we wouldnt have to support the bazturd in prison...

Credit: Ron Anderson
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
1,500,000,000 Muslims killed no one yesterday.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
uhmmmm that is more than likely incorrect.....^^^ check yur news!;-)
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 24, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
Ron, even the 'stand your ground' authors say the law does not apply here. Stalking someone and creating a confrontation is not 'standing your ground'.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
Why did the po'lice not arrest Z-man? The knews mentioned him possibly being an informant or having some kinda cozy deal going on. Did anyone check his house for a meth lab?

You read it here:

http://themoxiesophic.com/2012/03/16/is-george-zimmerman-a-police-informant/
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
Mar 24, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
zBrown,

That is what I was alluding to back a few pages on this thread when I commented something to the effect that the PD(PoPo's)were negligent and should be held accountable in regards to their lack of action!

The dude is an out and out racist. He steriotyped the youth and had a cold blooded death wish coursing through his mind and viens. "They always get away...F*#kin Coons!" He made a decision at that point, and followed through with it. He became the judge, jury and executioner point blank.

And the F'n cops...how pathetic!!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Ron. people are up in arms about a lot more than one case. It took this caSE to spotlight the flaws in the law but there have been many bad shootings that have walked due to the law. I have absolutly no problem with a stand your ground law. heck i think you should be allowed to fire and manuver, outflank the perp and take em down fron behind provideing they are armed and and have started a gunfight. i feel very strongly however that you should NOT be allowed to shoot anyone simply because you are afraid of them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 25, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
I do agree 100% with that Tradman..I wasnt really referencing this case- but it seems to demonstrate "loop-holes" go both ways..Of course,, we mostly know that loop-holes are another way of saying a lack of common sense...Early western towns functioned better with about fifty "laws" and a case by case trial of the facts steered by common sense,, then came lawyers...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
I feel this law better demonstrates that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. They had a reasonable idea in that I can not run 2495fps therefor I should be able to shoot the perp with the AK rather than try to run away from him. They ended up with a law that allows you to kill unarmed people simply because you are afraid of them.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 25, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
this guy has more capacity to judge life threats than punk Z-man. Shouldn't he be licensed to kill too?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
Thats it, I am never going on a climbing trip to Florida ever again. God I am going to miss those walls!
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
The Florida law flies in the face of a fundamental principle of law enforcement and public safety. Flight is the option that experts recommend in most situations, as it is less likely to result in serious injury or death, as opposed to standing and fighting.

If you are in your home and feel threatened, you can rightfully use your gun to defend yourself, but what if the thief has a more powerful gun, a flak vest and is better trained at close range shooting than you?

You are still better off running out the back door and letting the guy take what he wants. If you want to play Rambo, go ahead, but you are risking your precious life for some silly property of some sort.

Zimmerman was evidently given proper advice by law enforcement, but failed to follow it, and the results were a tragic loss of life.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
It ain't the place that is weird it is the people.

I love beaches, reefs, sailing, canoeing, swamps, airboats, rum drinks, and hot women in bikinis.
(definitely not in that order)

The climbing potential is pretty non-existent but if you need to heal a tendon sheath anyway,..
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
Riley,

Were the man eating ancient beasts retired Canadian grandmothers ?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
Dr. F,

you refer to a ban on assault rifles.

Could you please define "assault rifle", and tell me specifically what "ban" you are referring to?





(I said "please")
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 26, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
zimmerman's friend--a black man--interviewed on fox:

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/03/26/video-zimmerman-friend-calls-for-patience-in-investigation/
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Mar 26, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
I'm perfectly fine with waiting for this to go to trial. One thing that I found interesting was new photos put up of both Zimmerman and Martin. One shows Martin throwing double middle fingers like a gangsta and the other shows Zimmerman smiling, hair cut nicely, and wearing a suit. It's really incredible how these photos make you think differently about each person.

I'm with some other friends in that how the media is presenting this story is pretty prejudicial. I still think Zimmerman was a fool to play cop by stalking Martin. That isn't likely to change.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Here's another relevant piece from the NY Times that some of you may have missed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/opinion/floridas-disastrous-self-defense-law.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share

It's written by the former Miami chief of police who, along with many other chief of police in Florida, signed a letter opposing the passage of Stand Your Ground when the law was discussed in legislature. It's nice that the guns nuts see fit to ignore the advice of those persons actually in charge of our public safety. I guess they will argue that the police are just another sign of unnecessary big government.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 26, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
I wonder how different this story would be treated by the media if the kid had killed Zimmerman. After all, the kid was being followed, that can feel pretty threatening.

The fact that Zimmerman was following the kid, despite the pleadings of the 911 dispatcher, makes it difficult to claim he was standing his ground.


Here is an odd twist to this story- http://www.ajc.com/news/new-black-panthers-offer-1398575.html
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Mar 26, 2012 - 03:08pm PT

Ok people pay attention here is the case in a nut shell for you arm chair lawyers.

Zimmerman was following the kid. Told to stop following by 911 dispatch. Continued to follow the kid.

He was not standing his ground he was provoking the kid to act and when he did he shot and killed him.

Zimmerman is going to prison and he will get a plea deal but he will be going to prison and this stand your ground law will be repealed.

In the mean time I suspect that every black kid with a hoodie and a bag of skittles will fear for his or her life in Florida.

Sh#t if I lived in that hood I would have shot Zimmerman talk about a kook. There was not a neighborhood watch group in the neighborhood. He was the only member if there was one.

This makes him a vigilante once he shot the kid.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 26, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
Ok people pay attention here is the case in a nut shell for you arm chair lawyers.

Zimmerman was following the kid. Told to stop following by 911 dispatch. Continued to follow the kid.

He was not standing his ground he was provoking the kid to act and when he did he shot and killed him.

Zimmerman is going to prison and he will get a plea deal but he will be going to prison and this stand your ground law will be repealed.

If Zimmerman is going to prison, that must mean that the the "stand your ground law" doesn't immunize him from prosecution.
So what's the problem with the law?
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Mar 26, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
He wasn't standing his ground he was following the kid and in the end any lawyer worth their salt will show he provoked the kids actions.

Standing your ground means you stood your ground, you were threatened where you were standing and took action to protect yourself.

This f*#king nut took it upon himself to follow the kid around and in the end got what he was looking for. A reaction to his action and that in his sick and twisted mind meant he could shoot the kid.

Here is an example for you. Where I live if you break into my house and I shoot and kill you too f*#king bad for you as long as your in my house. If you break in and I shoot you after you have run out the front door I'm going down for murder.

In this case if Zimmerman had been hanging out if front of his house and the kid rolls up tells him to give him his money and wallet and brandishes a knife or a gun and maybe neither but Zimmerman feels threatened and he shoots the kid he is off on the stand your ground law.

Remember that Zimmerman followed this kid he was never in any danger other than the danger he put himself in following the kid around the neighborhood.

The guy was a vigilante and a opportunist who probably knew the law but in some sick way was playing out his fantasy to be a LEO. In the end a young kid is dead, and this guys taking up space in a prison.

The problem with the LAW is that it is too vague and can lead to BS like this. Even in my example above you give people the opportunity to kill people even if the perp has no weapon or means to actually hurt you. How about all the bums who asked you for change and you felt threatened and all of a sudden you pull a gun out and shoot him. I guess you could in Florida use the law to say you felt threatened so you shot him.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
If Zimmerman is going to prison, that must mean that the the "stand your ground law" doesn't immunize him from prosecution.
So what's the problem with the law?

My problem with the law (as opposed to the problem with the law) is that it creates a defense based on a state of mind, and the cases construing it appear to require the prosecution to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant lacked that state of mind. It then goes on to insulate the defendant from liability in tort under state law if the defendant is found innocent.

This effectively prevents any objective punishment for, or review or compensation from, dangerous and devastating actions, and promotes neither justice nor safety.

John
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:08pm PT

My problem with the law (as opposed to the problem with the law) is that it creates a defense based on a state of mind, and the cases construing it appear to require the prosecution to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant lacked that state of mind. It then goes on to insulate the defendant from liability in tort under state law if the defendant is found innocent.

This effectively prevents any objective punishment for, or review from, dangerous and devastating actions, and promotes neither justice nor safety.

John


Kind of the modern day twinkie defense, huh?

What if a paranoid schizophrenic feels threatened by, well, everybody?

It sounds like a law for people who watched too many Charlie Bronson films.
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
Different view of what may have happened, says the kid attacked him. I would like to see a PD of the 2 of them. Giant football player vs. 98lb geek or what are we looking at. What if Zimmerman was a female ?

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html

Not to worry the good reverand Sharpton is on hand to smooth things out.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Different view of what may have happened, says the kid attacked him. I would like to see a PD of the 2 of them. Giant football player vs. 98lb geek or what are we looking at. What if Zimmerman was a female ?

Most people would want to attack a person that is stalking them with a gun. The kid may have acted in self-defense when confronted by an unknown person with a gun who had no business even talking to him that night. Did Zimmerman identify himself and his intentions or just start acting like he was the criminal?

They both were scared for their lives at some point during all of this but only one of them went out that night with a gun with the intention of shooting someone, should the need arise. The other just wanted to get home with his candy.

This is like hiding in the closet with a gun and waiting each night until your wife finally has a lover over to visit. It would clearly be a crime of passion because you had no way of knowing that your wife's lover would show up that night.

Dave
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 26, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Here is a collection of 911 calls related to this incident. I'll try to embed the video but I'm not familiar with this bulletin board format.


[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHMRwmGlKs8]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHMRwmGlKs8&feature=related


Sorry, I can't seem to get this vid to embed. But the link is there for anyone interested. Some of it gets pretty emotional.

Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Mar 26, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
They both were scared for their lives at some point during all of this but only one of them went out that night with a gun with the intention of shooting someone, should the need arise. The other just wanted to get home with his candy.


He was out with a gun and he followed this kid around with a gun and when the kid finally let his mind run free that the guy following him was going to kill him he acted and we all know the end result.

This guy might be free now but in the next week he will be locked up post bail and the lawyer up process will begin.

Imagine being a black a kid and being followed by some big man whom you do not know. Where the hell is your head and how hard is your heart pounding just imagining what this crazy person is doing following you.

Remember this is a kid raised I'm sure on plenty of violent games,TV and street violence, and now all that sh#t is following him.

Tragic and sad this is where we are now. What would you have done had you seen this large man following a kid around??
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 26, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
I would be having a couple drinks with my friends in the Black Panther Party

I'm thinking this scene is kind of like the painting of dogs playing poker.

then I would borrow an arsenal.

LOL
"Excuse me sir, but could I borrow your weapons and ammo to go storm a police station?"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 26, 2012 - 09:49pm PT



michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 26, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
This guy f*#ked up real, real bad by stalking and killing this kid.
This is a moron of legendary scale.
Being a paranoid, pathetic, lunatic, loser is no excuse for murder.

They need to do a psyche evaluation on Zimmerman..

How many times has he called the police?
Any psychiatrist could tell you the tone of his voice and how paranoid he sounded talking about the kid, isn't a normal paranoia. He's probably got some kind of Schizophrenia or something...
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 26, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
i have alot more to say on this matter but wont. how about waiting until ALL the evidence is presented before jumping to conclusions. read this.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/26/justice/florida-teen-shooting/?hpt=us_c1

facts: zimmerman had a valid concealed weapons permit.
he was an active member of a gated community watch program on patrol.
he saw someone that he didnt recognize in his area.
he called 911
the dispatcher couldnt see what he sees
he says he was attacked and he has a broken nose and lacerations to the back of his head to back that story. [unless he broke his own nose and bashed the back of his head before the cops arrived.]

etc..........

i only got 1 thing to say. how many riots happened when OJ was acquitted?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 26, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
Manzanita man: Agreed about waiting for all the info on this particular case. I do think however that it's a poorly constructed law.

One thing that I have read that is not in congruence with your post is that there is no registered Neighborhood watch group in that neighborhood. Zimmerman was self-appointed watchman on an imaginary force. Do you have sources where it is stated there was one? Also, it is my understanding that Neighborhood Watch Groups (official ones) are prohibited from carrying guns. Again this points to his imaginary status on an imaginary group.

Not saying you are wrong. Just curious where you got your info. I'm curious to read it.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 26, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
acquitted. riots everywhere.

this is still the outcome.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:21am PT
this article says everyone has the right[if they have a permit] but they dont recommend it.

http://www.connectamarillo.com/news/story.aspx?id=734803#.T3E90DEgeDs
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:28am PT
let me ask this.
if zimmerman is acquitted, with obama saying that trayvon martin would be what his son would look like if he had a son,and including traylons recent past. how do you think that will affect the upcoming election? go crazy...
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:36am PT
I'm not a great speculator. I won't speculate about an acquittal because I'm not at all certain there will be an arrest at all. Or a trial.

Or maybe you mean the grand jury no-bills this? Who knows what will happen in terms of riots if that happens. I personally don't think it'll have squat to do with the presidential election personally.

Whatever happens, Zimmerman's life is forever changed. Not sure if he'll be found to scare someone else who pops him or what. But he clearly will have to go the way of Casey Anthony - live very quietly. :/
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:48am PT
crimpegirl: i agree with you.
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:10am PT
Fact; the kid was stoned...he was buying skittles and a slurpy.
He had been suspended from school for having pot in his back pack.
Fact; he had the "noids" and attacked Zimmerman

Come on, stop so much speculating. Wait for all the details

Who the hell wears a hoodie in FL anyways ? I just got back from hunting in SE Texas where it was hot & humid....hoodie weather...NOT. If you're wearing a hoodie you're hiding.

My neighborhood watch has PD from various breakins listed as "black male, 20-35 yrs". The latest hit & run on a parked car at 2am "ealy model Cadillac, BM, hoodie" Seems to be the outfit of choice for pot smokin, residential burglary hit & run thugs. I know my neighborhood, I walk my dog a mile or 2 pretty much every day. If somethings out of place I'll stop and observe but I'm not attacking anybody. But if they come at me and say WTF you looking at ? It's on.

My car got broken into in my driveway between 12am & 4am. I had just come home from the range about 11;45pm and left for work with my shotgun at 4am to go hunting after work. Lucky bastards....I'd have solved the car break in problem. Neighbors trail camera....male in a hoodie(no race, no face).
California will soon step up & ban hoodies. My neighborhood will be safer.

So the Black Panthers offered $10K for Zimmerman ?? There was an ad here for a lost pet for that much. Are they afraid it's going to get garnished or something ? What a token. Isn't that illegal ??

Riots ? You'd better believe it. Who will be the target ? Or will it be an excuse to loot as it was in South Central LA(yes, I was there).
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:39am PT
"Most people would want to attack a person that is stalking them with a gun"


huh? i'm not going to attack a person with a gun; i'm going to try to escape or create a disturbance to bring out witnesses

besides, there is no indication that martin knew zimmerman was armed; if z did have his gun drawn, it makes no sense that he would have allowed martin to attack


"Maybe you have to be from another country to really see how ridiculous law enforcement in the USA is in response to a murdered 17 year old black kid."

no, what's ridiculous is the presumption of guilt, which rejects the very foundation of our justice system; or maybe it's just your ignorance of the meaning of "murder", which has a specific definition and requires far more evidence than anyone on this site is privy to

also ridiculous is the presumption of racism just because the victim was a "17 year old black kid"; what if the races were reversed? would you assume the black shooter was racist for killing an hispanic man?

final ridiculous is the knee-jerk accusations of a conspiracy; your presumption of z's racism suggests that the police officers on the scene, the ems and coroner's personnel on the scene, and the da all conspired to cover up an obvious case of a hate crime--who's paranoid, now?

"a paranoid, pathetic, lunatic, loser"

an assessment based on a public record of such behavior? your inside information after speaking with z's friends and relatives or z himself? your years of investigative police work or psychological research?

or maybe you were subliminally influenced by the reflection in your computer screen


interesting that white people did not threaten violence when oj was acquitted or that he was never threatened after he was free and walking around living the high life...and that was AFTER all the evidence was released
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Mar 27, 2012 - 10:32am PT
The whole thrust of this thread pisses me off...

It's called a "rush to judgement" without having ALL of the details in hand. It's a strictly emotional response, and I'm all for the courts dealing with it, and not a mob rush for a lynching.

None of us KNOW the deatils, but are responding to MSM "senstionalism."
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:08am PT
Bookworm, repeat after me:

**Things don't look too good for the tool.
**

I bet you can't do it no matter how overwealhming "appearances" are.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:20am PT
Duke Lacrose Team all over again.
KaiPL

Mountain climber
Boulder, Colorado
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
Florida "stand your ground" law:

3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

This seems pretty reasonable to me.

If you reasonably believe that you are in danger of great bodily harm or death, why would you not have the right to defend yourself?


As for the the Treyvon Martin case: If Zimmerman's account is true (and apparently witnesses and the physical evidence support his account) and Martin attacked him and Zimmerman was getting pummeled and having his head smacked against the pavement, it seems like Zimmerman was in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. Retreat doesn't seem to be an option in this circumstance, so "stand your ground" isn't applicable.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
tgt pictures of the young man looks just like my kid at those ages. The only difference is mine is white.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 27, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
only three dead in the bay area last night,, must be the weather. This "case" ,, one isolated one,, get press like theres no tommorrow pushed by ---politics. It is ODD that the "good shootings" that happen even in Florida get one teensie article in a paper at best. I myself know someone whom shot a burglar entering his bedroom through the window at 200 am, but you never heard A WORD about that..

It has been the focus of GUBBMENT to disarm the citezenry for a while now. Theres TONS of research into this.. Just look up Soros. So States now counter this with increasingly provocative legislation, and arms sales are at all time highs while our cities become literal killing fields while our GUBBMENT does NOTHING to solve those problems.

This reminds me of a period in our history....
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
California will soon step up & ban hoodies. My neighborhood will be safer.
No truer words were ever spoken. "People don't commit crimes; hoodies do".

That clinched it for me. He was wearing a hoody. Guilty as charged. No need to dispense capital punishment either since he's already dead. What an efficient system.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
Agree Riley,, that is the reason i point out the other incidents..NOTHING had been done for decades now. Between the hamstringing of law enforcement by politicians and lawyers making a joke out of the system nothing is the norm, other that tally up the deaths at the end of the year for a juicy news broadcast. Our wild lands to our cities are now being infested by those that seek to do harm- here in my town, the sheriffs tells us of how many KNOWN gang members there are here now, but thats it. Most arent even citizens yet they seem to have "rights" so NOTHING is done once again..Ive had gang dealings outside my shop door yet nothing has been done with that gang that inhabits the subdivision to the west of me.

So to expect anything to be done about this case is like wishing,, and you know what they say about that.;-)
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
we're "idiots" because we admit we don't have all the evidence and can't make a judgment...and because we believe the vast majority of white people--including cops--are NOT racist...and we're willing to believe that a man with black friends publicly defending him might, actually, be a decent man who put himself (that much i'll concede) in a terrible situation with a tragic outcome


you know, i actually prefer being an "idiot"
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
And it was done by a guy who in 2005 had an assault charge on a police officer and a domestic violence charge in 2007.

So what? You think that is as serious as being suspended from school for having an empty baggie? You libs have no sense of proportion!
KaiPL

Mountain climber
Boulder, Colorado
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
It's funny that people assume that the police haven't been doing anything.

"Nothing has been done by the local police."

It's true that the police didn't immediately arrest Zimmerman. However, that's not the same as doing nothing.

A murder investigation takes time. Typically longer than 48 hours. Did the local police say that the case was closed? Did they say that they didn't plan on investigating? Not that I've heard or read.

People complain about the lack of "justice" because Zimmerman wasn't immediately thrown in jail. It's becoming more and more clear that the evidence that the police had access to doesn't warrant keeping Zimmerman in jail during the investigation.

Ultimately, if the evidence collected by the investigation is sufficient, it will go to a grand jury, who will decide whether or not criminal charges are warranted. That's how our justice system works, even though Al Sharpton, the Black Panthers, Sinead O'Conner and other luminaries want to take a shortcut to "justice" and throw Zimmerman in jail without a trial (or just kill him.)



Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
NOTHING had been done for decades now. Between the hamstringing of law enforcement by politicians and lawyers making a joke out of the system nothing is the norm,
Let me understand you correctly, you're saying that the penal code, the executive branch (police, sheriffs, etc.) and the criminal courts system have been sitting idly by doing absolutely nothing for 30 yrs.? How do you explain our overcrowded prisons? How has law enforcement been hamstrung? How have lawyers been making a joke out of the system?

BTW, I don't actually expect you to provide a reasonable response to any of my questions. I'm writing more to let you know that the typical redneck 'they're taking over' crap doesn't really fly.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Call me a typical redneck if you wish,, but do so more directly as being a dimbwit,, clarity is crucial!...

Yes,, the sheriff telling me how many KNOWN GANG members exist, and telling me they have "that right" may seem pro-active to some,, but not i...Having the border patrol set idly by warning us citizens NOT to go into areas due to it being dangerous while they themselves cant "do" anything about it may seem pro-active to some also,, but not i.. Having the local county sherriff tell me "theres really nothing we can do" after reporting shots fired outside the shop might also seem pro-active yet to me it falls a bit short. To have my wild lands taken over by cartel operations isnt very "positive" either...



ps. Denny remeber that poor guy?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
And this relates to Zimmerman/Martin how?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
as in ALL threads,, there is a drift to them...you must have drifted left when we went right...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
something ive mentioned a few times has received NO rage from anyone.

Are you all MEDIA PAWNS!?

otherwise,, there would be some rage over just last nights Bay area tally alone, yet,,,crickets....

And you can bet this will more than likely turn into a racial issue becuase they are acting like media pawns as well.

this one isolated incident doesnt not represent the slandering of ANY group, until the media says so then,,, the shite hits the fan. IF we are ALL equal,,,,,,,then this was something between two different men that needs to be properly ironed out in court and done in short order with just the facts. Nothing more need be said really. But as we are seeing,, the news WILL turn up the flame to get the pot boiling---racial over tones, gun legislation over tones and that ilk are done on purpose - for political gesturing period....Meanwhile,, your local news will give you the evenings tally of murders , shootings, stabbings and gang activities..


itzawl just peace love and doves man....
cleo

Social climber
the canyon below the Ditch!!!!
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
Nice TGT. Your photo is a fake.

http://twitchy.com/2012/03/25/why-teamdueprocess-is-important-for-justice/
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
The Tampa Bay Times takes the approach we have seen adopted by the Times -
there is no mention of Zimmerman's bloody nose or cut to the back of his
head. Lots of rumination about how children can avoid "looking suspicious",
but no advice along the lines of "don't punch strangers in the nose".

----------------------------


(An account of the shooting with street maps and background of the players)

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/




Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Denny remeber that poor guy?

Do you remember Reginald Denny? Do you? Do you recall how he dealt with what happened?

Reginald Denny is one hell of a good man, and I doubt very much he'd appreciate his name being used against Martin.

cc:
but no advice along the lines of "don't punch strangers in the nose".

Classic. I suppose you wouldn't fight back, you'd have been on your knees kissing Zimmerman's feet, crying and pleading for him not to plug you.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
Exuse me Gary, but that was hardly a reference against anyone in this case, it was a reply to the post that mentioned the riots. It tied in with my post of how the MEDIA manipulates everthing including people, for political reasons, and the utter stupidity of riots...


edit: Toadgas,, ive heard much the same...
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
Fair enough, Ron.

BTW, yes, riots are stupid.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 27, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
Seriuosly Gary? Comparing the resolve, reason, and dedication the malitia had at the onset of a revolution to Watts?? Did those guys burn their neighbors houses when they left to join???


edit: we lived near Watts and saw the smoke. My brother was right downtown, stuck in an induction center for the USAF, waiting to head out to basic trng. Watched it all from windows. One of my stronger earlier childhood memories was my Dad, bolting out the door of our home with his 30-06 to join the neighbors in "discouraging" a "group" that had shown up in the area in a short school bus. said bus vacated said area.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Did those guys burn their neighbors houses when they left to join???

Yes they did. They did not treat the conservatives of that day, who supported the king, very kindly. Read about it, it's very interesting stuff.

edit: In fairness to the patriots, the conservatives did want to hang them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 27, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
anyone that supported the king was a traitor, thus treated like an enemy. sound reasoning anytime...
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
It is absolutely stunning how the modern day conservative is rushing to defend Zimmerman. A true conservative would have no sympathy for a wannabe cop who stalks a kid, causes a confrontation, loses a fist fight and kills the kid.....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 27, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
I just hate how everyone is jumping to conclusions based on whatever side of the plane you like to sit on.

Left wing sees Zimmerman as a murderer.
Right wing sees Zimmerman as someone defending themselves.

Le' sigh, then you get the whole race issue bullsh*t.
He obviously profiled everyone who was black. Pretty racist.
Don't make it an issue about "oh the kid was black, no justice will be served because the shooter was white."
How about the issue of some kid is dead, and there isn't enough evidence to prove if it was self defense or not?

Be angry at the investigators..

The bruises on Zimmerman's face should be matched to the fists at the end of Martin's arms. Not hard at all, Riley i'm sure you've seen plenty of domestic assaults if you work in a hospital. They probably take pictures of those bruises real fast...

The investigators are just sitting on their d*cks waiting for something new to happen.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
M. very short sighted assesment there. The lead investigator wanted manslaughter. FL law makes it very easy to kill without penalty so perp walks. There is ample evidence suggesting zimmerman stalked trevon. there is little doubt that zimmerman was on the loseing end of a fist fight.. just think what a bad ass I could have been in 7th grade if VT had a law like that and I could have shot every kid that beat me in a fist fight........
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 27, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
That's exactly how I see it....

He stalked him.
Wanted to get into an altercation...
Sh*t came out sideways and he landed on his a** with some kid trying to defend himself.
Martin see's Zimmerman pull a gun.
Martin screams.
Zimmerman has self defense case....
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
The Daily Caller obtains Trayvon Martin’s tweets.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86809463/Trayvon-s-Tweets-the-Daily-Caller
















monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
Why don't you have him selling drugs at the 7/11?

Smart CC, you removed your comment about him being out smoking pot, cuz we know pot smokers are such a threat.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Mono - Remind us all why he was on a 10 day school suspension?

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Why did you remove your comment?
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Mono - troll
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
I think we can all agree there was a physical confrontation. In this case, the winner gets to make the claims about how it started.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
Mono - although his eyes are quite bloodshot is his twitter pic. Think its
because he'd been studying a lot?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Yes CC, he was a nasty kid in a hoodie, deserving to be stalked and killed by a guy 100 lbs heavier in fear of his life.
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
Zimmerman has a history of being aggressive with those he doesn't see eye to eye with...






Sanford police released a log of Zimmerman's dozens of calls to police dating back to 2004, which show a pattern of his reporting suspicious people and minor nuisances. Three other reports released by the county sheriff show Zimmerman was willing to follow wrong-doers.

In September 2003, Zimmerman called police to complain of a fellow motorist spitting on him. He followed the man until police arrived.

But the motorist, Daniel Osmun, told police that Zimmerman was tailgating and he spit his gum out the window "out of frustration" with the young man's erratic driving.

As they pulled up next to each other, the two exchanged words and "Mr. Osmun also said at one point, he thought Mr. Zimmerman was going to attack him," according to a police report. Prosecutors were contacted but no charges were ever filed against either, according to state records.

In October 2003, Zimmerman again called police as he followed a man who had apparently stolen two combination DVD/TV players from a supermarket. The suspected thief was arrested.

Then in October 2007, Zimmerman called police to report that the tires of his Dodge Durango were slashed and he suspected his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend. However, he had no proof the man, Tim Hudik, was behind the vandalism.

Hudik, however, told police that he never touched the truck - and that he so was aggravated by text message exchanges with Zimmerman that he was mulling a restraining order against Zimmerman. None was filed, according to Seminole County records.

Hudik hung up on a Miami Herald reporter Tuesday.

Zimmerman was arrested in a scuffle with an undercover officer in 2005, but the charges were dropped when he entered a pre-trial diversion program that allowed him to have a clean record.

When he applied for the citizen's police academy, Zimmerman insisted he did not know the man he scuffled with was a cop.

"I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regaurd (sic) as I hope to one day become one," he wrote in his application. "I would never have touched a police officer."

©2012 The Miami Herald




...good thing for Daniel Osmun that the police heard HIS side, as that is my best friend's (from college) brother in Sanford, and losing him for nothing would be plain wrong.




Sucking Fyko is what Zimmerman is
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-elderly-man-shoots-burglar-in-englewood-both-charged-20120326,0,3175723.story
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
"Stand Your Ground Law"
The results are entirely predictable.

WTF is the idea of allowing (encouraging) people outside the authorized law enforcement chain of command to shoot unarmed citizens upon fear of violence? Where is the training? NADA. Where is the chain of responsibility? NADA.

And this BS about Trayvon having been in trouble for marijuana?
One of the most decent, non-violent young men I know has been busted for dope.
BFD.

I don't particularly hold Zimmerman at fault. Sure he's guilty of manslaughter at least, but he was setup by the community's mass hysteria.

Riley
I don't think I have ever known anyone like Zimmerman.
You need to get out and expand your social life. There are plenty of them.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
This is the sort of loutish,hysteria-driven, mean-spirited mob mentality that has.....
led to the creation of this non-sensical and dangerous law.

hey. How about all the climbers I know who wear hoodies? How 'bout the Patagucci hoodie sweaters and guide jackets?
How 'bout the climbers who've had a MJ run-in with the law and wear hoodies on a dark night?

be careful out there, could be a target on your back.

The ONLY facts we know are that Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Zimmerman was armed. Trayvon wasn't. Trayvon had not committed any crime that night. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. And the DA did diddley squat of an investigation.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
Hoodies first became popular when it got cold.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
We have gangs here that wear various colored plaid shirts,, the same kind ive worn for decades. Ive been eyeballed over the shirt,, im sure. Is it fair? No...but peace is just a quickdraw away. I wore plaid shits way before the jackwagon gang trash decided they were cool. I got squatters rights...
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:07am PT
Have you ever been followed ?

Did you attack your follower ?



'
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:07am PT
The ONLY facts we know are that Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Zimmerman was armed. Trayvon wasn't. Trayvon had not committed any crime that night. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. And the DA did diddley squat of an investigation.

We don't know if Trayvon committed any crime, but it doesn't matter. The other facts ARE what we know and much of what you need to know to know something went wrong.

What really made this story blow up and take racial overtones was not the incident itself, but the police investigation of it.

The police sent out a narcotics detective, not a homicide detective.
The police dept. had complaints of racial bias in the past.
The police didn't test the shooter for drugs/alcohol but they tested the dead person
The police did a poor job interviewing witnesses.
The police didn't check Trayvon's cell phone records and talk to his girlfriend who was on the phone when the incident was happening.

The police still haven't admitted they messed up not arresting Zimmerman. They said they had no reason to doubt his claims of self defense, but the simple fact that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon means it was not a stand your ground situation. If we take Zimmerman at his word that Trayvon attacked him you still have Zimmerman pursuing Trayvon causing the confrontation. The fact that the police STILL can't admit this shows how screwed up that department is.

American justice, like American democracy might be among the best in the world, but it's still ripe for abuse and screw up. And injustice DOES often affect some people more than others and if you can't see that you are a weak, self centered person.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:37am PT
we don't know that z "pursued" martin; we know he FOLLOWED, which is perfectly reasonable for neighborhood watch; we don't know he was "ordered" to stop following but simply told "we don't need you" to follow

we know z was bloodied on his face and head

we know z claimed he was attacked, which was, at least partially, confirmed by a witness who called 911 and reported "man in white" (martin was 6'2" and wearing white) on top of and beating "man in red" (z was wearing red)

we know z is hispanic; we know z tutors black children even after funding for the program was discontinuted; we know z has black friends defending his character--one of them publicly the other without showing his face because he fears for his safety

we know z has been arrested and we know martin was suspended from school for drugs; meaning, we know nobody's record is perfect

we know the black panthers have put out a "bounty" for a man who is not a fugitive and has not even been charged with a crime; we know spike lee tweeted a private citizen's phone number that turned out to be the wrong number and now an elderly couple is being harrassed and is afraid for their safety

we know public officials are making accusations of "murder" and systemic racism, further enflaming a terrible situation

we know sometimes the system fails but most of the time it doesn't

we know nobody outside out of sanford, fl, would be having this conversation if martin wasn't black or z wasn't not black

we know that 90% of black murder victims are murdered by black assailants, and we know that nobody wants to address that issue

stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:44am PT
"we know spike lee tweeted a private citizen's phone number that turned out to be the wrong number and now an elderly couple is being harrassed and is afraid for their safety"

Great job, Spike Lee! What an as#@&%e.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:51am PT
oh, we also know zimmerman is a registered DEMOCRAT!!!



so, by the logic displayed on this thread, we can immediately assume that all democrats are violent, racist, ignorant, pathetic, psychotic, etc.


which, of course, we already knew
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 28, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Spike Lee is a retard...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 10:31am PT
validation of goldberg's "liberalism fascism":

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-27/news/os-trayvon-martin-wrong-zimmerman-20120327_1_tweets-heart-condition-twitter


hey, riley, while you're hangin' with the nbp's (assuming they let a "cracker" like you in their company) maybe you can have a few laughs about this elderly couple being driven out of their home
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 28, 2012 - 11:55am PT
spike lee and company deserve a BEATdown. wheres that idiots rage against the other 100 deaths caused by gangs since this incident?? No where.... He comes out of his dank hole to grab what ever headline he can out of this. He needs his tweeter shoved up his arse...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
Credit: bookworm
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
This article, allegedly leaked from the police, says Martin approached Zim as he walked away, saying "what's your problem?" "you got one now" and punched him. Them got on top and pounded his head on the ground while Zim yelled for help. Witness backs the latter half that Matin was on top & Zim calling for help.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Martin suspended 3x from school, not an empty baggy, still had some pot AND a pipe. Relevant...not really.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
I just love how they keep using Martin's pic from when he was like 12. All smiles. Not the ones of him in baggy clothes flipping off the camera.

edit: BREAKING NEWS

(CNN) -- The parents of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teen killed by a Hispanic man who claims self-defense, said Wednesday that they have faith in authorities investigating the case.

Zimmerman is now "Hispanic".

F*ck my life.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
The problem is that the Right wing in this country is part of a cult that gets all its information from the same sources and thinks the same way.


I'm trying to think of the best way to compare it to something....

I guess...

If your Black, you'll most likely see this as a hate crime, and another black kid killed after being profiled, and no justice.


Right wing, will most likely see it as a self defense, of an attack by a black kid who has been suspended from school, and posts stuff on twitter that their conservative celibate sons and daughters would never post on twitter, and that this should clearly be a clear cut case of self defense based on the "Stand your Ground" Law.


Riley, let's be friends. There's a lot more room in the middle. :)
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
I think he always was.
He certainly never looked white.
Who was saying he was white?

About every news agency when this whole thing went out of control.

Zimmerman seriously, from the sound of it, has some sort of superiority complex. Given his past criminal history, it could of all been avoided if he didn't feel like he needed to intervene every time something happened.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
The Sanford Police selectively leaked irrelevant, negative information about Martin. The authorities told the Orlando Sentinel this morning that Trayvon was suspended from school for ten days “after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.” There is no evidence that Martin was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death, nor would prior possession of marijuana be a reason for killing him. It’s unclear what the relevance of the leak was, other than to smear Martin. [Orlando Sentinel]

The marijuana stuff is at least somewhat relevant. It's well known that using marijuana causes paranoia in at least some users. If Trayvon was under the influence of marijuana and was being followed by Zimmerman, he may have overreacted and attacked Zimmerman.

Moreover, possession of marijuana is a crime, and if Trayvon had recently been engaged in criminal activity, it's entirely possible that he had the mindset of criminals and those dealing with criminals--was he being followed by a drug dealer or user who wanted to steal his marijuana? An informant?
Who knows. But people involved in criminal activity likely have a different mindset when dealing with the public compared to people not involved in criminal activity, especially activity that is frequently linked to other crimes and violence (e.g., theft of drugs and money that drug dealers and users have, rip offs during drug deals).

Speculative? Absolutely. Highly relevant? Perhaps not.
But let's not pretend that Trayvon's history of marijuana-related suspension has no relevance to this story--it's all part of the mix of trying figure out what happened.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
The worst thing this kid can be accused of is confronting someone who was stalking him. Apparently, that is an idea foreign to our Republican apologist friends. They are so used to bending over and grabbing their ankles, they think it is the norm.

A scrawny kid had the balls to stand up to a bigger, and armed, thug and he's the one being smeared by the right wing. Classic.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
The marijuana stuff is at least somewhat relevant. It's well known that using marijuana causes paranoia in at least some users. If Trayvon was under the influence of marijuana and was being followed by Zimmerman, he may have overreacted and attacked Zimmerman.

That's hilarious on SO many levels!

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
we know that 90% of black murder victims are murdered by black assailants, and we know that nobody wants to address that issue

Holy crap, is this really true?

If so, the race-card players should take a moment to reflect on this...

While Zimmerman is very likely a kook with a gun who got in over his head,
the "kid" was most certainly knott an angel, despite what the pre-pubescent pic might
lead us to believe.

And it takes 2 to tango...

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
A scrawny kid had the balls to stand up to a bigger, and armed, thug and he's the one being smeared by the right wing. Classic.

Sadly, this is most likely the case. Unfortunately, one side is making it about race, while the other is trying to dig up trash on the kid to justify shooting him. It's f*cking bullsh*t.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
michaeld, this kid should be a hero to the right wing. Instead of waiting for somebody else to do it for him, he took action and stood up for himself. Then a corrupt and evil government screwed him over after he was dead.

In the meantime, there is the case of Trevor Dooley. Dooley, with a handgun tucked into his pants, left his house and crossed the street to a park to tell a kid he couldn't skateboard there. A father playing basketball with his daughter argued with him about that.

Dooley turned and started back to his house. The father went after him, and grabbed him. Dooley shot the father.

The two cases seem similar don't they? The instigator, who was armed, turned away, and then shot in self-defense when confronted.

Yet Dooley is on trial while Zimmerman is free. Isn't that curious? Especially since Dooley is black and the guy he shot is white.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Yes Hardman, that is the case: Most violent crime is intraracial.

It varies a little bit year to year, but in general, about 90% of blacks murdered were murdered by blacks. About 7-8% of blacks were murdered by a white.

For whites, about 85% were murdered by whites. And about 14% were murdered by whites.

(Differences come from 'unknown' or 'other' victims.)

Keep in mind that the FBI at the national level does not collect victim or offender Hispanic origin data (some states do). So, these number only refer to race (white, black, other in this case). Most Hispanics are white so most Hispanics are going to be found in the white category.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
A tragic encounter is when you hit a cow on your dirt bike.
Both sides are making it about race.


What happened is --- An adult seems to have stalk, confronted, & shot & killed a juvenile. & the police did nothing until pressured.


Something is way wrong period.


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
if this thread isnt proof positive of the media and their abilities to stir the poop, USING RACE as the excelerator then nothing is..
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
Holy crap, is this really true?

If so, the race-card players should take a moment to reflect on this...

While Zimmerman is very likely a kook with a gun who got in over his head,
the "kid" was most certainly knott an angel, despite what the pre-pubescent pic might
lead us to believe.

And it takes 2 to tango...

There's something very unsavory about this form of argument. Like justifying rape in the case of short skirts or the like.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Both sides are making it about race.

-which is fućking bullshìt!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Agreed Jebus.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
There's something very unsavory about this form of argument. Like justifying rape in the case of short skirts or the like.

OK, two guys got into a beef, one of them is dead. And we don't have all the facts.

Better?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but all the (usual) assumptions make me dizzy.

Since we are making assumptions, I'll assume that Zimmerman called him a "coon" (as you can hear him say on the 911 tape). Or maybe the N-word? Then "the kid" starts beating the crap outta Zimmerman, and he shoots Martn.

Again, two to tango...

It does seem odd that Zimmerman is knott in jail. Can't wait to hear the whole story!
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
if this thread isnt proof positive of the media and their abilities to stir the poop

Ron, shouldn't some poop have been stirred here?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
deleted
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
I probably agree with more than disagree with you, but the phrase seems to justify something that really isn't.

Both sides seem to be missing the mark with this one and the arguments are much more telling about those who make them than they are about what may or may not have gone on that night. Ugly.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
Gary,a certain amount Yes,,but NO MORE than the dead counted on the evening news last night. Instead,, it has turned into a "racial" thing and threats of riots etc etc. THAT has been powered by the media/politicians for their own gain and to hell with the fact it CONTINUES and advertises the "race wars" . Or at least thats the way i see it. Even that flea of society spike lee is up to the usual.

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Can't wait to hear the whole story!

Agreed, Hardman, but we do have a lot of facts now, the 911 tapes most significantly. None of which make Zimmerman look good, IMO.

If it's OK to shoot someone because they had an empty baggie, I would never have survived HIGH school.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Gary,a certain amount Yes,,but NO MORE than the dead counted on the evening news last night.

Couldn't agree with you more, Ron.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
Agreed, Hardman, but we do have a lot of facts now, the 911 tapes most significantly. None of which make Zimmerman look good, IMO.

If he really said "fućking coons" on the 911 tape (and it certainly sounds like it), then there should be hell to pay, regardless of the circumstances of the shooting. It does sound like the wanna-be cop was looking for a fight, his bravery bolstered by the firearm.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
It's interesting to me how an initial discussion about the "Florida Stand Your Ground Law," about which we have virtually all available information, morphed into a Martin/Zimmerman discussion, about which we lack some (though, in my opinion, not a whole lot of) information.

Sure, there are people who will use any excuse, legitimate or otherwise, to stir things up. To me in this case, however, the facts we already know about the Zimmerman/Martin tragedy (I assume that no matter how you feel about this, any time an unarmed man is shot dead [and even some times when an armed on is] constitutes a tragedy) make a discussion of the wisdom of that law timely and rather important.

I guess I analyze it this way. If someone shoots another in self-defense, no [edit: United States] law of which I am aware authorizes prosecution. Florida's law differs from that norm because its interpretation lacks objectivity in determining self-defense.

The law itself requires a "reasonable" belief. That implies an objective standard. Unfortunately, as I understand it, the case law undermines that objectivity to the point where prosecution becomse difficult if the defendant can provide evidence of fear, even if a reasonable person would not so fear.

If I am correct, does such a law make for a safer society? That, to me, should constitute the policy debate. those who decry the press's playing of this in a manner of "Judgment first, then trial" (as the Queen of Hearts said in Through the Looking Glass) have, I think, a legitimate point, although I know of almost nowhere else where Zimmerman would still be free and uncharged. That doesn't apply, however, to a discussion of the Florida law. How many more Trayvon Martin's can we bury and maintain our souls?

John
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Agreed Hardman. We don't know a lot. And the media does not get details right frequently in cases like this.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
If he really said "fućking coons" on the 911 tape (and it certainly sounds like it), then there should be hell to pay, regardless of the circumstances of the shooting."

what if he didn't make any racist comment but really did kill martin for racial reasons? how would you prove that? would you argue that his volunteer tutoring of black children on the weekends was just a cover, to help in his defense when he just happened to find the perfect opportunity to kill an innocent black man in a scenario that he could plausibly argue self-defense, something he's been dreaming about his entire life? would you argue that his black friends who are defending his character were also part of his grand scheme to hide his racism? would you argue that these men are too naive to recognize a racist when they meet one or that they are victims of some deeply psychological self-loathing inspired by their racist society?

and what if he did make the comment? would that make him a racist? ever call a woman a 'bitch'? does that make you a misogynist? you say, 'regardless of the circumstances': what if martin did attack him? would the comment be a sure sign of racism? or fear? or anger? what if i come home to find a black man raping my wife and i call him a "coon" as i shoot him? am i guilty of a hate crime? can you prove, based only on that extraordinary moment, that i'm a racist?

consider: i murder a black man because...

1) i want to take his watch

2) i want to see what it's like to watch a man die

3) i want to prove i'm tough

4) i think it's fun

5) i felt dissed when he stepped on my toe

6) i was mugged by a black man and want revenge

7) i was hired to kill him

8) i hate black people

now, which is the worst? only one murder is given special designation by federal legislation and it's one that is virtually impossible to prove


when we have members of congress declaring this was a murder before a trial, before a grand jury, before any charges, and before the evidence has been made public; when we have an elderly couple forced to flee their home for their own safety just because somebody named george zimmerman once lived at that address and their address was tweeted TWICE by a celebrity with thousands of followers; when we have a racial organization offering a cash "bounty" for a man that hasn't been charged and is not a fugitive, we need to seriously step back and consider the possibility that this could turn into something far worse
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 28, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
The law itself requires a "reasonable" belief. That implies an objective standard. Unfortunately, as I understand it, the case law undermines that objectivity to the point where prosecution becomse difficult if the defendant can provide evidence of fear, even if a reasonable person would not so fear.

The word "reasonable" in the statute doesn't "imply" an objective standard, it is an objective standard.
Can you cite the case law (or explain the basis for your "understanding") that, if I understand you right, someone can be immunized from prosecution on the basis of an unreasonable fear?

If your understanding is right, then I would agree that the law --as interpreted by the courts-- has a major flaw, but that flaw isn't at all apparent from the text of the law.

(Some other parts of the law, such as the notion that it changes the burden of proof in civil suits, may indeed be FUBAR, but I don't seen any connection between that and your point above.)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 28, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
He should have just kept his mouth shut about a local/state issue.

holy crap fatty, you really are a tool aren't you?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Quite certain that Obama was commenting that a child who looked a lot like what his son would have looked like was killed. I see this at work all the time. Guys on the construction site who have daughters have zero tolerance for raunchy humor directed twords young girls. Its a parent thing. You can turn it into a race thing if you want but INMOP the gut reaction was a parent thing.
Just have to say this again as it is just so blareingly obvious and disgusting.
The modern day conservative seems to foster a sh#t ton of small minded mean spirited weirdos. My dad was as Republican as you could get back in the day before it was spelled Repuglican. Decorated WW11 vet who took on Tiger tanks with a bazooka. I garentee you that if he was alive today that he would disown the current repuglican party and there is no way in hell that he would be sticking up for zimmerman. My dad was a man of integrity and compasion. Two qualitys almost completly lacking in the modern day conservative.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 28, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
The Florida special prosecutor investigating the Trayvon Martin shooting is bringing in independent voice analysis experts to go over the 911 tapes. Zimmerman said it was him screaming for help, if it's determined in was Martin, Zimmerman will be in deep sh#t. If it's Z unfortuneatly we probably won't learn much about what really happended but it will bolster his claim of self defense.

This case kind of strikes a chord with me. When I was in college a friend and I got the address of a rental house from an agent who told us we could go take a look. I guess we did look suspicious, we were there at dusk, in an empty van, looking in the windows with a flashlight. But it was an empty house.

A cop showed up, started questioning us, and a jackass, beer bellied, low class, neighbor comes up accusing us of being the thiefs that have been buglarizing the neigborhood. For about 10 minutes we were polite, understanding, and explained the situation. But the neighbor started addressing me directly accusing and cussing at me, I finally lost my temper and went off saying something like "You say we were here for 10 minutes or more looking in the windows right? It's an empty house idiot, how long are we going to case an EMPTY house?, You are totally wrong right now but you are too stupid or stubborn to realize it and you are accusing innocent people. You're the one causing the problem right now. There's no way we'd rent this place with an as#@&%e neighbor like you next door. Call the listing agent and see if we talked to her earlier today." After my outburst the cop stopped believing the nieghbor and started believing us because what I said made sense, but the neighbor still was unconvinced and pissed that the cop didn't think we were guilty at that point. The cop left but my friend and I had to sit there in his van for another 15 minutes or so because his van has a glitch where it wouldn't start until it cooled down. The whole time we were waiting for the neigbor to come back out with a gun or something.

And we were college student white kids. I can't imagine what would have happened if we were black. The cop seemed reasonable and it probably wouldn't have mattered to him, but the neighbor was an as#@&%e who couldn't see he was wrong even when I told him how illogical his view was, just the type to be racist.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 28, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
JE: If someone shoots another in self-defense, no [edit: United States] law of which I am aware authorizes prosecution. Florida's law differs from that norm because its interpretation lacks objectivity in determining self-defense.

In Canada, and I believe many US states, an independent party or parties - police, prosecution, grand jury - determines whether it appears that there was an objective, reasonable basis for the claim of self-defence or not, based on the evidence. In turn, a court hears the evidence and makes the decision. Laws like this allow an interested party, who may often be the only surviving witness, to make that decision.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 28, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
JE: If someone shoots another in self-defense, no [edit: United States] law of which I am aware authorizes prosecution. Florida's law differs from that norm because its interpretation lacks objectivity in determining self-defense.

MH: In Canada, and I believe many US states, an independent party or parties - police, prosecution, grand jury - determines whether it appears that there was an objective, reasonable basis for the claim of self-defence or not, based on the evidence. In turn, a court hears the evidence and makes the decision. Laws like this allow an interested party, who may often be the only surviving witness, to make that decision.

JE hasn't responded to my earlier post, but it appears that he is wrong in his clam that Florida's law "lacks objectivity in determining self-defense." (If he or anyone else can show I'm wrong, notwithstanding the "plain meaning" of the statute, which requires reasonableness, I'll give thanks for the correction.)

MH--I'm not an expert on Florida criminal law, but I've yet to see any suggestion that the Florida law would be applied any differently from any other criminal law statute (and US criminal law is almost entirely statutory). The law in question doesn't change how the system works (police investigate, DA decides whether to bring charges, defense doesn't apply if the defendant's behavior isn't "reasonable"). There may (or may not) be problems with the FL law, but so far no one has shown any connection to those perceived problems and anything that has happened in the investigation of this case.



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
Bla bla bla, take it you have not read any of refrences to multiple cases where the FLA law has made it difficult for prosecuters to have a case resulting in letting the murderer free. In most states the shooter has to prove that the person he shot was in the preocess of taking the shooters life or that of annother person. The perp must have the intention to kill and the means to kill . In VT if I think you are trying to kill me and I waste you and your gun turns out to be a bag of skittles I go to prison. IN FL I walk without even a trip to the police station.
In FL the threat does not have to be real. The way it is worded the court has ruled by the letter of the law VS the intent of the law setting pressidence that the threat does not have to be real, it can be imagined. If you are afraid for your life you may shoot regardless of the fact that your life was not actually in danger.

That precidence that has been established in FL greatly affected this case. The cops knew they couldn't make anything stick so they didn't try very hard.. The SYG law set the precidence. The shooter walks without even a trip downtown.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 28, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
For those who are saying "we don't have all the facts" ...

True, we don't. But neither did the cops when they decided not to press charges. They had a dead child (and it is noteworthy that he was, legally, a child), no idea whether the shooter was under the influence, and very little other evidence.

And yet somehow they decided the appropriate course of action after a child was killed was to do nothing.

No wonder folks believe that race was an issue. Because race was one of the few facts that the cops actually had when they made their decision. They seemed to take no interest in obtaining any more facts.

So, sure, we need to get all the facts. And only because of the public outrage are the authorities now interested in the facts.







Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 28, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
Empowering the paranoid. Strong work, Florida. I still want to hang my dick out in the Keys, but, you know, this complicates matters.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 28, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
You can see how badly Zimmerman got beat up here:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Or can you?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
thought experiment

Is there any chance in hell that if a Black guy shot an unarmed White guy in Florida that he wouldn't have been charged or taken to jail

I think no chance at all

which is the problem

Peace

Karl
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
this thread is so full of outright BS from both sides that it is hilarious.

the police at the scene wanted to arrest the Zman so dont sh#t on them.

many of you want to condemn Zman without a trial, do you need a noose? really?

none of us know the facts until we actually sit in the jbox during the trial. all you f*#ks are doing is proving what blind as#@&%es you are whether you are on one side or the other......
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Not sure if we do know that is zimmerman? if it is it is the first time that I was aware that they brought him downtown for questioning? he certainly looks physicaly fine in the video.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 28, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
This shows why in the old days the trials were more speedy.

The longer this drags on the more polarizing it becomes.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
Zimmerman is not a cop. He had absolutely no business following and confronting Martin, who nobody has alleged or even hinted was committing a crime of any sort. The 911 dispatcher instructed him to desist. He didn't, but rather continued to stalk Martin and at some point confronted him.

There is no "defense" here, only aggression on the part of Zimmerman.

The investigating detective wanted to file homicide charges. Apparently he was overridden by a state judicial official.

Zimmerman should be arrested and there should be a trial.

@blahblah - Your statments are the stupidest thing I've read in many years.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Is there any chance in hell that if a Black guy shot an unarmed White guy in Florida that he wouldn't have been charged or taken to jail

Google Trevor Dooley and your question will be answered, Karl.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:16am PT
zimmerman was taken to jail and released when the da determined there was not enough evidence to hold him; however, that was not the end of the investigation

f displays his limited vocabulary when he claims "kill" is synonymous with "murder"; he also shows his contempt for the justice system by admitting he does not need to hear any evidence to determine if a crime has been committed
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:40am PT
thought experiment

Is there any chance in hell that if a Black guy shot an unarmed White guy in Florida that he wouldn't have been charged or taken to jail

I think no chance at all

which is the problem

Peace

Karl




Karl,, whos fault would that be?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:53am PT
Karl has so little faith in his fellow man. I would hope that equal treatment would take place.

As my grandpa used to say, "Hope in one hand and sh#t in the other and see which one fills up first."

Google Trevor Dooley.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:01am PT
Zimmerman is not a cop. He had absolutely no business following and confronting Martin,

Personally, I'd rather wait to hear the evidence, but I would like to point out that the common notion that it is only the job of the police to confront criminals is disingenuous.
The main job of police is to clean up messes. Being pro-active is great, but they can't be everywhere at once.

The front line in the war on crime is and always has been right in everyone's face. Certainly an uncomfortable notion but deal with it!

You can run and hide, put three locks on the door, or you can chose to become pro-active.

The truth is that far more criminals are justifiably shot by civilians than cops.

That said, if Zimmerman was out looking for somebody to shoot, then put him in prison.
But if he was performing a legitimate neighborhood watch and confronted a suspicious person who became suddenly so violent that he had little time to react, then I don't intend to second guess him from the comfort of my gun room.
Nor do I think anyone who hasn't been the victim of a felony ought to be.

Let the justice system chew on this one.


I still stand by my prediction;
Federal charges for civil rights violation, civil mega-judgement but little coin to show for it
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:32am PT
But Ron, is walking on the sidewalk back to your house with candy criminal?
WBraun

climber
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:34am PT
They just released a video of Zimmerman after he was arrested at the police station and it appears in that video he had no injuries and no broken nose.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-shooter-george-zimmerman-appears-uninjured-police-video-night-shooting-article-1.1052433
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:36am PT
The likely scenario, judging from the various accounts is that Zimmerman thought Trayvon looked suspicious, law enforcement told him to back off, but he followed him anyway, disregarding their advice. Trayvon was then the one who felt threatened. It was the man following him who possessed a gun, after all, not him!!

Even if Trayvon turned on Zimmerman and punched him out, he also had the right to self-defense, didn't he? If Zimmerman can claim self defense against someone, even though he was following the guy, he had a gun, and the other guy didn't, how much more so could Trayvon have made the same claim. No one thus far has seemed to grasp the point that Trayvon has as much a right to act in self-defense as Zimmerman. Trayvon's in-laws, after all lived in that neighborhood, he had a perfect right to be there.

If I were in charge of admissions for the Florida police academy, I don't think I'd take Zimmerman
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:48am PT
Even if Trayvon turned on Zimmerman and punched him out, he also had the right to self-defense, didn't he? If Zimmerman can claim self defense against someone, even though he was following the guy, he had a gun, and the other guy didn't, how much more so could Trayvon have made the same claim. No one thus far has seemed to grasp the point that Trayvon has as much a right to act in self-defense as Zimmerman. Trayvon's in-laws, after all lived in that neighborhood, he had a perfect right to be there.

Actually I think lots of people have "grasped" your point, and it may be be correct (although it's not obvious to me that Trayvon would have the legal right to start beating the crap out of George, even if George was following Trayvon and being an obnoxious jerk by asking him where he was going / what he was doing).

It is hypothetically possible to have a situation where two people would have the legal right to act in self-defense and use deadly force against each other. In that case, it's just the luck of the draw who comes out on top, but no crime has been committed.

Here's an analogy: not every automobile accident is the result of negligence on the part of either driver. You may have an Escalade steamroll a SmartCar where the SmartCar driver did nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean the Escalde driver is liable under criminal or civil law.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
"appears uninjured"...granted, that calls into question the police report that states z was "bloody" on his face and the back of his head; however, it's not a "smoking gun"

it simply doesn't make sense that the police lied on their official report then took z to the police station where they KNEW there would be multiple cameras to reveal their false report; also, the cops would have to be certain that others on the scene (witnesses, ems personnel, and possibly coroner's and da personnel) would conspire to cover for them

the logical explanation (though still entirely based on speculation) is as follows: police are required to take injured suspects (note, z is cuffed in the back seat of the patrol car, which proves he was taken into custody) to the hospital if needed or render first aid on the scene; so, it makes sense that z would be cleaned up by the time he arrived at the police station


"Trayvon was then the one who felt threatened. It was the man following him who possessed a gun, after all, not him!!"

again, you're not thinking logically; you assume z had his gun drawn, which makes martin look pretty stupid (or at least reckless) for attacking a man who's holding a gun on him rather than running away or screaming for help

yes, martin had a right to be there, but residents also have a right to be suspicious if they don't recognize somebody walking in their neighborhood at night; and there's nothing illegal (or even wrong) about confronting such a person--especially following a rash of burglaries--to which the reasonable response is "my name is trayvon martin; my family lives on this street; you can follow me there to be sure"
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
and there's nothing illegal (or even wrong) about confronting such a person

OK Bookie I call total bull on that. Legal yes, Morally its completely out of line. Do you mean to tell me that you would want someone challenging your legitimacy and freedom to walk to the store to get skittles? Do you realize that this sort of attitude festyered with "The Jewish Problem" in Nazi Germany right through the thirties and nobody called moral bullshit on it?

you should be ashamed of yourself
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
There were two people involved in this story.

One of them was a child.

The other was an adult with a history of criminal convictions for violence.

And yet some here argue that only one of them had the right to defend themselves.

What else distinguishes these two people?

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
We'll never know what really happened. I'm guessing Zimmerman tried to detain Martin cuz he knew the cops were on the way and didn't want 'another one' to get away as he said on 911 tape. Any kind of physical contact could easily escalate into a fight.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
you compare this incident to the holocaust, and i'm the one who be ashamed?


the whole purpose of neighborhood watch is to "watch" for suspicious activity; yes, martin was, technically, a child, but he was also 6'2" and walking with his hood up on a warm florida night; there had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood; there is NOTHING wrong with asking such a person to identify himself

bruce, you're the one who assumes this was a racial incident and fueled by hatred when you have NO PROOF whatsoever; in fact, the evidence we have about z's racial attitudes point to exactly the opposite (i.e. black men defending his character)
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
There was no neighborhood watch.

We also have something called "police."

Zimmerman was neither.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
Yep Bookwarm, WATCH, means you watch and report. Don't confront and detain. He knew the cops were on the way.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
I'm telling you a certain portion of our population is predisposed to defy moral reason with instinct pacifying ideology. How else do you explain such things as entrenched denial of Global warming, lack of acceptance of gays, add infinitum.

So do I advocate a final solution to "The Right Wing Problem"?

Not at all, but that dosn't mean we should idly stand by while they seek to impose thier morally bankrupt will on the rest of us.

As far as I'm concerned they can satisfy thier infantile impulses in a job running a garbage dump or ticketing expired parking stalls.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
citizens are encouraged to be proactive.

indeed, to the point of armed confrontation over suspicion of looking funny
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
zimmerman derangement syndrome: trayvon martin's death = the holocaust = global warming skepticism = acceptance (sic) of gays


bad news, f, but i think bruce might be looking to take your place; you better come up with something way more unhinged than "murder"
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
bookworm:
and walking with his hood up on a warm florida night

Bookie, do you ever get anything right? You seem to have some sort of recurring problems with facts. And not just in this thread.

Trayvon Martin, 17, died Feb. 26 in a dark pathway some 20 minutes after a neighborhood watch volunteer called police saying he thought a young stranger looked suspicious. It was raining, and the volunteer thought the kid in the hoodie walked too slow and peeked in windows.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html

Is it possible you've got anything else wrong?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
Hood up on a rainy night? Shoot him!
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
How come we didn't have to wait on a report on Trevor Dooley?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
oops, one wrong fact--i guess i'm a racist hoping for a black holocaust; just ignore everything else


The Corner

The one and only.

10 Things That We’ve Learned from the Trayvon Martin Tragedy

By Victor Davis Hanson
March 29, 2012 11:27 A.M.

1) So far there has been very little new light shed on exactly what happened on the night of the shooting. It is likely that Mr. Zimmerman will be arrested on some sort of charge, local, state, or federal, and more likely that most will believe that such an arrest is as much a necessary price to soothe racial passions as it is likely to be based on careful review of existing evidence.

2) Identity in this ill society is everything — something to be put on and taken off as one sees advantage. Civil-rights supporters prefer to wear hoodies in rallies and demonstrations in solidarity with the hooded Mr. Martin, but prefer the media to continue to show pictures of a young-looking victim in football attire that better offers a sympathetic portrait to the general public. Hispanic and Democratic George Zimmerman, had he Hispanicized his name (something like a Jorge Zimmerman, or had he used his mother’s Latino maiden name), would have either found a supportive chorus from Latino activists, or the entire case of Latino-black crime would not have had commensurate resonance. If Mr. Zimmerman were applying for a civil-service job, no one would have created the new rubric “white Hispanic.” Even at this late date, if he were to use his mother’s maiden name as part of a hyphenated last name, he would earn more empathy. Unfortunately, he found himself pigeonholed as a white conservative vigilante, not a Hispanic Democrat, and that has made all the difference in his media profile.

3) The hysteria is not just over the death of a young African-American male, because hundreds are tragically killed to near silence every year, 94 percent of them by other African-American males. Nor is the outrage over a supposed white war against black men, given that in incidents of interracial crime, the latter kill the former far more frequently. Nor is it just over the decision, so far, of the police not to arrest and indict George Zimmerman, because hundreds of black assailants of other blacks each year find themselves not charged for capital crimes, because of the proven difficulties of obtaining critical affidavits, and the reluctance of eye-witnesses to come forward in the inner-city. In general, there are no marches or demonstrations over what has become a case of sheer carnage of one particular racial and gender group in our cities, or the frequent inability to bring murder suspects to trial. Finally, if the deceased had been white, and there are numerous whites killed each year in self-defense cases, with the facts as we know them so far unchanged, there would be zero national interest.

4) There are no such things any more as overtly recognized racial smears, at least not in the absolute sense. They now depend on perceptions of who says what and why, a relative condition. The country is obsessed with decoding a scratchy tape to ascertain whether Mr. Zimmerman said “cold, coons, goons, or punks,” with the idea that if the garbled word proves a racial slur, then we have the magical key that will supposedly unlock the case — even as the late Travyon Martin self-identified himself with the N-word on his Twitter account and used it of his friends. No one can explain why Mr. Martin felt a need to so self-identify; no one seems to care; and no one can provide rules of the conditions under which (who says it, and when, why, how) society must deplore the use of such an epithet.

5) The country is unhinged and pays no attention to simple logic. The mother of Trayvon Martin deplores society’s supposed media obsession over her son, even as she seeks to trademark her son’s name for traditional marketing purposes, after avowing her legal efforts are only to protect his legacy. We are to deplore the use of past information about Mr. Martin that might lend background information to the case (past suspensions, possible drug use, alleged possession of possible stolen items, etc.) that seems at odds with the narratives provided by the media, but simultaneously must be told that in the past Mr. Zimmerman was a vigilante, racist, had brushes with the law, was a bad credit risk, etc. In short, we are to accept that background information is a relative issue, and a necessary means only if it leads to proper ends.

6) There really is no law. The Martins have legitimate questions about the absence of an indictment, as do many in this country who are unhappy with the use of self-defense pleas. That said, no one believes the Black Panthers will be charged with a felony for posting an open-season bounty on Mr. Zimmerman; no one believes that Spike Lee’s deliberate attempt to incite a mob reaction at the Zimmerman residence will even be considered a misdemeanor; and no one believes that a crowd of protestors detouring into a pharmacy to loot it will face arrests for theft. Everyone believes that if he were to emulate any of the above behavior in a non-racially-charged case, he would most surely risk some sort of legal repercussions.

7) There can be no more presidential editorializing. In this case, the Gates matter, the Fluke incident, and the Giffords tragedy, the president weighed in only to find his commentary either unsupported by facts, premature, prejudicial, or abjectly partisan. Nor will the attorney general weigh in, given that he has lost credibility after nonsensically calling the nation “cowards” for not wishing for a dialogue on race on his terms, referring to African-Americans as “my people,” and alleging racism as the cause of congressional questioning of his handling of the Fast and Furious debacle.

8) Mr. Zimmerman indeed may be guilty of second-degree murder, some sort of manslaughter, criminal negligence, or innocent by reason of self-defense. But we are at a point now where such considerations have become secondary to the larger agendas of activists. Mr. Sharpton, Mr. Jackson, the Black Panther Party, the Black Caucus, Spike Lee, and others may feel their invective and shoot-from-the-hip allegations are necessary to ensure an indictment, given the history of racial bias in this country; but fairly or not that aim seems secondary to their larger interests in racial scapegoating and acrimony for careerist reasons. Of course, they are not worried about such criticism, but it nonetheless is widely shared, as the opportunism and lack of ethics of the current self-identified civil-rights establishment is becoming a national consensus.

9) Most who editorialize so passionately on this case, black and white, live in cities, but most likely as far away from those neighborhoods and inner-city schools where murder is an epidemic as they can. They are engaging in de facto profiling in every aspect of their and their childrens’ lives, based on general perceptions, personal experience, and statistical data. Profiling and stereotyping are for others; a “good” or “safe” area is for the more sensitive and educated.

10) If an outsider were dispassionately to collate the public statements of the Black Caucus, the number of widely publicized racial controversies, and the charges of racism and counter-racism in the last three years, then one would conclude that racial relations, at least at the media and sensationalized level, from 2009–2012 were both far more emphasized and far worse, and the country far more polarized, than at any time in recent memory. In short, we are entering a dangerous phase in which millions of Americans have resigned themselves to allowing elites to construct one sort of reality, while they disengage from it and privately live quite another.


the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
martin was, technically, a child, but he was also 6'2" and walking with his hood up on a warm florida night; there had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood; there is NOTHING wrong with asking such a person to identify himself

We don't know the details yet and may never know, but it's no surprise to see those on the right quick to support a LEO wannabe with a gun vs. an unarmed black person who was doing nothing wrong.

He was "technically" a child. He WAS a child. Interesting use of technically there.

It sounds like he had his hood down until he realized he was being followed then put it up. And it was raining. Even suggesting blame for wearing a hood up is like blaming a rape victim for being dressed provocatively. It doesn't justify anything.

There is nothing wrong with asking a person to identify themselves, but if that person refuses or ignores the asker, they can do NOTHING about it.

Bottom line Zimmerman was pursuing Martin. If we take Zimmerman at his word that Martin attacked him (which sounds like BS to me by how Z describes it, why is someone going to all of a sudden risk their own safety and attack someone else who had 100 pounds on him?) Z still pursued him which led to the confrontation. Even if it was self defense Z should have been arrested and shares blame for creating the situation.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
right, i see someone 6'2" and i automatically think "child"

and nobody is "defending" zimmerman; we're simply responding to the unhinged rhetoric, the seemingly instinctive accusations of racism, the conspiracy theories, the fact that a militant group has offered a "bounty" for zimmerman (for what, his...capture?...he's not even a fugitive), the fact that spike lee tweeted an incorrect address for zimmerman and forced an elderly couple to flee their home and go into hiding, the fact that roseanne barr has tweeted the address for zimmerman's parents, the fact that a rap artist has released a song calling for violence, the fact that members of congress--our supposed "lawmakers"--are trashing the legal system by declaring zimmerman guilty of first degree murder and racial profiling, etc.

if zimmerman is guilty of stalking and murdering martin, he should receive the death penalty...but he should first receive a fair trial



The Media and Black Homicide Victims

By Heather Mac Donald
March 29, 2012 7:00 A.M.

Cable mogul Evan Shapiro had a stunningly clueless Trayvon Martin entry on Huffington Post yesterday asking: Why doesn’t the media cover more black crime victims?

Shapiro, the president of indie cable broadcaster IFC, should pose the same question to Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and every member of the black protest establishment: Why don’t you protest more black crime victims? The answer would be the same in all cases: Because the only black victims who interest the race industry and its mainstream media handmaidens are blacks who have been killed by “white” civilians, including honorary whites like Martin’s killer George Zimmerman, or blacks who have been killed or offended by the police (black officers will do here in a pinch).

Unfortunately, there are very few such victims. Ninety-three percent of all black homicide casualties from 1980 to 2008 were killed by other blacks, and are thus of no interest whatsoever to today’s race advocates, because they fail to support the crucial story line that blacks remain under siege by a racist white power structure.

The coverage of New York City’s West Indian Day Parade in September 2011 exemplifies this rule. The New York Times and other local outlets spilled an enormous amount of ink on an altercation between a black city councilman, Jumaane Williams, and the New York Police Department. Williams had tried to cross a police line, and, when he was not allowed to pass, got into a scuffle with some officers. He was then handcuffed and held until the police verified his identity. The city’s Public Advocate, a New York State Assemblyman, and Williams charged the police with racism, claiming that the treatment of Williams exemplified the “siege mentality” with which the police treat black men in New York City. To this day, the Williams detention is regularly mentioned by the New York Times in its constant coverage of the alleged racism of the NYPD.

What else happened on that parade day in 2011? A black-on-black bloodbath:

In the pre-dawn celebrations known as J’ouvert that open the parade, one man was fatally shot, crowds were sprayed with gunfire, and several people were stabbed. A shooting at a McDonald’s at 6 am triggered a stampede. The police repeatedly had to break up mobs that formed after gunfire. . . .

Later that day, a shootout near the parade route killed its intended victim as well as a 55-year-old mother who had been standing nearby; the two police officers who responded to the murders were also shot. Police also arrested someone in the vicinity of the parade who shot off several rounds without hitting anyone. The day’s violence would have likely been even worse had officers not removed 15 guns from spectators; each of those potentially life-saving stops would undoubtedly be condemned as racial profiling by the ACLU and its backers in the City Council and in Albany.

Previous West Indian Day Parades were hardly more pacific; the violence includes a man shot in the leg in 2007; another leg shooting and a stabbing in 2006; a man shot to death in 2005; and in 2003, a stabbing in the neck and someone who, from his perch on a parade float, shot into a group of spectators and killed one of them.

None of this violence was given the intense and loving press treatment accorded to the detention of Jumaane Williams. In fact, it was barely mentioned at all, even though, arguably, it is more serious to be shot dead than to be briefly detained by the police. Nothing prevented Al Sharpton from protesting the killings and stabbings that day. However, only Councilman Williams falls into the favored category of, in this case, black victim offended by the police, and so his detention was the only event that day worth noting.

On Halloween 2010, five-year-old Aaron Shannon Jr. was playing in his family’s backyard in his Spiderman costume in South Central Los Angeles. Two gangbangers from the Kitchen Crips, seeking to avenge a previous gang shooting, shot randomly towards some houses and killed Shannon, also wounding the boy’s grandfather and uncle. Sharpton, Inc., was perfectly free to make the names of Shannon’s killers, Leonard Hall Jr., 21, and Marcus Denson, 18, as infamous as that of George Zimmerman. But the race baiters never showed up. The killing aroused not the slightest interest from them because it was useless in aiding the white racism conceit. And so no one outside Shannon’s immediate circle remembers today who Hall and Denson are, even though Shannon was at least as innocent as Trayvon Martin (whose image as combined Eagle Scout-St. Francis of Assisi has in any case come under some stress of late, information, that, if true, is not irrelevant to assessing Zimmerman’s self-defense claim.)

We know the names of virtually every unarmed black civilian shot by the New York Police Department in recent years — Amadou Diallo, Patrick Dorismond, Sean Bell — as well we should. To the extent that botched police tactics or training contributed to these tragic killings, the incidents are rightly publicized so that they can be prevented from reoccurring. Here’s the difference between these killings — they are a tiny handful — and the routine black-on-black killings that occur by the dozen every day across the country. The officers who mistakenly shot their victims thinking they were facing a deadly threat set out that morning to protect people, often in minority neighborhoods, not to injure anyone. A significant number of black-on-black shootings, however, like many shootings among all races, are done in cold blood.

Here’s another difference between police killings of blacks, white-on-black killings, and black-on-black killings: Sheer numbers. There were nine civilian victims of police gunfire last year in New York City; there were several hundred black homicide victims in the city, almost all shot by other blacks or Hispanics, none of them given substantial press coverage. Nationwide, in 2005, there were 2,646 black victims of other blacks, compared to 349 black victims of whites or Hispanics. The relative rates of interracial killings are wildly skewed towards black on white killings: There were two and a half times as many white and Hispanic victims of civilian black killers in 2009 as there were black victims of civilian white and Hispanic killers, even though the black population is one-sixth that of whites and Hispanics combined. Yet to read columnists such as the Times’s Charles Blow or to listen to the professional racial extortionists, it is the police and whites who are the biggest threat to blacks, not other blacks.

A further prudential reason why the routine black gangbanger victim gets so little coverage: He is not particularly appealing. Though he had the misfortune of being the victim that day, he could just as easily have been the perpetrator the next day. That is true of many white-on-white homicides as well.

Shapiro, of course, has another explanation for the absence of coverage of most black crime victims: The media is too white, especially in its upper ranks. The “stunning under-representation of minorities at the TOP of our national and local news organizations creates an institutional lack of empathy for minority victims of violent crime,” he writes. Has he noticed that Trayvon Martin is not exactly being ignored? As soon as the media got wind of the story, it ran with it. When Amadou Diallo was shot by four NYPD officers in 1999, the New York Times ran three and a half articles a day on the incident for several months.

If Sharpton protested outside the jail cell of the routine robber or gunman in East New York with as much zeal as he devotes to allegedly racist whites or to the police, if he ever stigmatized black killers of blacks, the phony problem of “racial profiling” might go away, since it is merely an epiphenomenon of black crime. Protesting or covering black crime, however, would require bringing out some uncomfortable truths, such as the fact that the homicide rate among black males of the ages of 14 to 24 is nearly ten times that of white and Hispanic young males combined. Evan Shapiro mentions the elevated rates of black homicide victimization but somehow neglects to include the black homicide commission rate. His column flawlessly exemplifies the ignorance of the Hollywood elites regarding today’s racial realities.

— Heather Mac Donald is a contributing editor of City Journal and the author of Are Cops Racist?

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
oops, one wrong fact--i guess i'm a racist hoping for a black holocaust; just ignore everything else

I'm actually on Fattrad's side on this to wait for more facts, and I do not hope to see race riots. It will definitely be serial apologists like you who will help fan the flames into something more serious though.

and nobody is "defending" zimmerman

If you hadn't noticed, he seemed to "defend" himself quite thoroughly already.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
oops, one wrong fact

In your dreams. It's a constant cascade of misinformation from you.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
if zimmerman is guilty of stalking and murdering martin, he should receive the death penalty...but he should first receive a fair trial

In order to receive a "fair" trail, there must first be a trial.

That is the issue.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
"In order to receive a "fair" trail, there must first be a trial.

That is the issue."

ok, but there has to be sufficient evidence to formally charge somebody; then, there has to be sufficient evidence to take the case to trial


again, zimmerman was cuffed and taken into custody, not, as some seem to suggest, patted on the back and sent on his merry way

it appears the da ordered zimmerman released that night based on the LAW (the law seems clear to me, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be amended or even repealed, but, until that time, it must be followed) but that doesn't mean the investigation ended, either; the police can't just hold anybody indefinitely without a charge

and a trial might still happen, but i think it would be wrong if the trial happens just because of political pressure
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
Personally, I'd rather wait to hear the evidence, but I would like to point out that the common notion that it is only the job of the police to confront criminals is disingenuous. The main job of police is to clean up messes. Being pro-active is great, but they can't be everywhere at once.

Not everywhere, but they were there in Sanford. You're overlooking the fact that the cops were on the way and that he was told not to follow him.

There is a whole line of argument initiated by academics, but actually implemented in e.g. NYC that it is more beneficial for the police to actively prevent the messes than to clean them up. In the situation under discussion here, had Z-man obeyed the dispatcher there would not have been a big mess, the cops could have confonted Martin and busted him for formerly possessing marijuana or some such.

I'm inclined to agree that it will all end up a "civil rights" violation.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
somebody should be arrested for this:

https://twitter.com/#!/KillZimmerman

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 29, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
right, i see someone 6'2" and i automatically think "child"

Ah, I'm finally getting it... so, because he looked like an adult black man, that made Tayvon a threat duly subject to gunfire. Sounds reasonable ;).

But if Tayvon looked so dangerous, why did Zimmerman approach him in the first place? Because Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight! If he hadn't had his metallic courage on him, some of the more likely possible outcomes for Zimmerman are: he would have kept his distance and never gotten into an altercation in the first place; he would have taken his beat down like a man; or, he would have beat up an ultimately innocent minor. All of which wouldn't have apologists now look like such scum bags for trying to justify why it's perfectly okay an unarmed youth is dead for no good reason.

And, before we get into that can of worms, I am pro-gun ownership, just not pro psycho idiot.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
A 140 pound 6'2" kid.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
The case of Emmett Till.

The defense asserted that Bryant and Milam [two of the murderers] had taken Till, but had let him go.

Sound familiar? Z-man asserts that he "lost" Martin and then Martin snuck up and punched him in the nose from behind.



Suppose

Z-man decides he's gonna rape a woman. Follows(stalks) her. When questioned he states that he figured she was a prostitute walking the streets.

Z-man is an aspiring car-jacker. He follows(stalks) a driver in the parking lot. When questioned he states he thought the car was stolen.

Z-man...

Why were you carrying a gun? Because it's legal. I carry, therefore I am.

These are hypetheticals, don't wet yourself. Substitute J-man if you'd like.



graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
walking with his hood up on a warm florida night;

The news reports say it was a cold rainy night.

The weather data for Sanford, Florida for February 26th supports this:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

High: 69
Low: 53
Precipitation (rain): 0.20 in.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
Kid should have told Zimmerman, "go ahead call the LEO"

Kid should have gotten of the phone with gf and called 911 himself.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
A 140 pound 6'2" kid

You sure about that weight?
Do you know anyone of that height / weight?
I see skinny, strong climbers all the time, but I don't think I've seen anone that tall, that light. Not saying it's impossible, but that sounds fishy . . .
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
He had a BMI of 18 by one online calculator given the numbers reported in this forum. Under 18.5 is considered underweight by some sources. He was a young man though, a lot of people tend to "fill out" as they get older. Not that I personally know what that's like...
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
blahblah:
You sure about that weight?
Do you know anyone of that height / weight?
I see skinny, strong climbers all the time, but I don't think I've seen anone that tall, that light. Not saying it's impossible, but that sounds fishy . . .

Police have not moved from their official statement of the shooting. But as the controversy grows, so does the number of voices disputing the official version that watch captain George Zimmerman gave to police: that the six-foot, three-inch, 140-pound teen assaulted him when Zimmerman, 28, tried to question him. In fear for his life, he pulled Kel Tek 9mm handgun from his waistband and shot.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/v-fullstory/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
"Ah, I'm finally getting it... so, because he looked like an adult black man, that made Tayvon a threat duly subject to gunfire. Sounds reasonable"


unhinged; you know i was responding to the claims that zimmerman killed "a child", which, you know, implies zimmerman knew he was only 17

unhinged; you, again, claim zimmerman shot him because he was black, or, specifically, because "he looked...black"; you have no PROOF that this was a racially motivated crime (or a crime, at all) and, of course, ignore my repeated reminders that zimmerman has BLACK friends defending him (one who remains anonymous because he fears for his safety--oh, brave new world that a man fears for his safety if he speaks up for his friend)

"Because Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight!"

unhinged; again, you imply that zimmerman was "stalking" martin or was looking for somebody to "fight" or, since he was carrying his gun, somebody to kill




"All of which wouldn't have apologists now look like such scum bags for trying to justify why it's perfectly okay an unarmed youth is dead for no good reason."

unhinged; NOBODY is claiming it's "perfectly okay" that martin is dead; NOBODY is happy that he's dead; and NOBODY is claiming there's a "good reason" he's dead...we are, in fact, claiming there's a reason he's dead but NOBODY (besides zimmerman) knows what that reason is even though many people are claiming they do know; we're simply claiming there's no way, based on the evidence that has been made public, to know if zimmerman committed murder (1 or 2) or manslaughter or any crime at all; in fact, the evidence released so far indicates that he acted within the law (and that's not a defense of the law); we're simply trying to quell the rage before somebody else gets hurt

"And, before we get into that can of worms, I am pro-gun ownership, just not pro psycho idiot"

unhinged: you have no way of knowing if zimmerman is "psycho"; i agree, he put himself in a bad situation, but that's not a crime; and, yes, i'll take the word of his BLACK friends that zimmerman is a good man and a good citizen over the rantings of sharpton, jackson, farrakhan, spike lee, roseanne barr, doctor f, bruce kay, etc.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 29, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
fact:

none of us know the whole story. only what the news channels has sppon fed us and they tend to spoon feed us the stuff that sells.

some of you guys would have been lynching people early on back in the old west times....

tragic? yes. but face it, if you were attacked and knocked down and afraid for your life and you were carrying, would you shoot to save yourself?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
unhinged; you know i was responding to the claims that zimmerman killed "a child", which, you know, implies zimmerman knew he was only 17

He killed a child, whether or not he knew how old the kid was. Age is objective, not subjective.

unhinged; you, again, claim zimmerman shot him because he was black, or, specifically, because "he looked...black"; you have no PROOF that this was a racially motivated crime (or a crime, at all) and, of course, ignore my repeated reminders that zimmerman has BLACK friends defending him (one who remains anonymous because he fears for his safety--oh, brave new world that a man fears for his safety if he speaks up for his friend)

Other than he called the kid a f*#king coon?

"Because Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight!"

unhinged; again, you imply that zimmerman was "stalking" martin or was looking for somebody to "fight" or, since he was carrying his gun, somebody to kill

It was implied that Zimmerman was stalking the kid when Zimmerman left his car to stalk the kid, don't you think?




"All of which wouldn't have apologists now look like such scum bags for trying to justify why it's perfectly okay an unarmed youth is dead for no good reason."

unhinged; NOBODY is claiming it's "perfectly okay" that martin is dead; NOBODY is happy that he's dead; and NOBODY is claiming there's a "good reason" he's dead...we are, in fact, claiming there's a reason he's dead but NOBODY (besides zimmerman) knows what that reason is even though many people are claiming they do know; we're simply claiming there's no way, based on the evidence that has been made public, to know if zimmerman committed murder (1 or 2) or manslaughter or any crime at all; in fact, the evidence released so far indicates that he acted within the law (and that's not a defense of the law); we're simply trying to quell the rage before somebody else gets hurt

All well and good.

"And, before we get into that can of worms, I am pro-gun ownership, just not pro psycho idiot"

unhinged: you have no way of knowing if zimmerman is "psycho"; i agree, he put himself in a bad situation, but that's not a crime; and, yes, i'll take the word of his BLACK friends that zimmerman is a good man and a good citizen over the rantings of sharpton, jackson, farrakhan, spike lee, roseanne barr, doctor f, bruce kay, etc.

Forget the strawmen. Let's look at the best case scenario for Zimmerman. He left his car armed, pursued a kid who was guilty of nothing more than walking home. The kid confronted his stalker, got the best of the situation and got shot.

That's the best case scenario for Zimmerman. Ugly, isn't it?

Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 29, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
some of you guys would have been lynching people early on back in the old west times....

The word "lynch" here is just too ironic.

It would even be funny if we were not talking about a dead child.

The reason there is outrage is because there was a lynching. Martin was tried and executed for a crime that never even occurred. All because of the acts of one person who had no authority whatsoever and who now accepts no responsibility whatsoever.

Nobody wants another lynching. What many want is thorough due process. For both sides.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
You can't hit someone if you are afraid for your life? I thought that was the whole point of the Florida law. Don't back down, take it to your adversary.

Lesson: use a gun, not your fists.
nature

climber
CO
Mar 29, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
no kidding monolith. apparently the biggest mistake here was Trayvon not packing and defending himself (under the FL law). Of course then Trayvon would be in custody...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
The way the law is written and has been interpreted by the couts is just crazy legal murder.

Two neighbors argue about trash bag limits on collection day. One shoots the other unarmed man in the chest with a 9mm and walks. FL Stand your ground.

Man goes nuts on basketball court. goes home comes back with gun. shoots and kills the unarmed man who tries to disarm him. FL stand your ground.

Wanna be cop follows and intimidates black kid ( the text messages to his GF confirm he felt threatened) Unarmed kid ends up shot and dead. FL stand your ground.

There are hundreds more of these. About eighty per year since 2006. Guys like Buley and Ron A, Donald etc who keep voiceing support for this law are sick individuals.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 29, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Martin probably was not allowed to carry a gun because he was 17.

He couldn't even vote for/against the idiots that passed this law.

But I'll bet if he had done the shooting, they would try him as an adult.




the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
There is a lot of opportunism going on. There are a lot of people ready to condemn Z without all the facts. I've seen video of rallies with mob mentality that would lynch Z if he was there. That's wrong, and if you are against that fine. But many are defending Z by attacking Martin. Or justifying what is known that Z did which led to the confrontation.

Forget the strawmen. Let's look at the best case scenario for Zimmerman. He left his car armed, pursued a kid who was guilty of nothing more than walking home. The kid confronted his stalker, got the best of the situation and got shot.

Much is unclear. Hopefully we'll know more (I'd really like to know who was screaming for help). But given the best case scenario for Z above it's BS he was not charged and a thorough and logical investigation was done.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
He wasn't exactly told not to follow.

The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that".

Hair splitting perhaps, but such details get scrutinized.





Still waiting to hear all the evidence,...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
I have done body guard training, took the courses passed the test been licenced to be an armed bodyguard. There is absolutly no way many of these FL shootings would go unprosecuted in VT. They have removed all the obsticals from the ROE that are supposed to keep you on your toes and make damn sure that your shot is justified before you send that round down range. Once you pull that trigger you can NEVER get that round back or reverse whatever consequences it causes.

The ROE for trained combat troops in Afganistan right now is much more restrictive than the ROE for untrained gunslingers in Forida.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
your claims of "stalking" imply zimmerman intended to kill him from the start; there's NO PROOF of that

it also implies, if you know anything about hunting, that zimmerman had his gun drawn, ready to shoot; there's NO PROOF of that; but this also implies martin attacked a man (according to eyewitness accounts) holding a gun, which certainly means he acted stupidly


all we KNOW is that zimmerman was FOLLOWING martin; was that stupid? in hindsight, yes; in the moment, not necessarily

would i have done it? if i was on neighborhood watch and there had been a rash of burglaries and the person in question was not familiar to me in my gated community and i had a cell phone to call the cops...maybe

so you claim it doesn't matter that zimmerman didn't know martin was only 17 even if he was 6'2"; so, if martin was only 5'2", it wouldn't be so bad that zimmerman killed him if martin was 18???




Studly

Trad climber
WA
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
So if I'm a black man or teenager in Florida and I am wearing a hoody and I see George Zimmerman, it seems like I can legally blow him away because I would be in fear of my life knowing that he kills black people in hoodies. No wonder Zimmerman is holded up. They better send him to prison because if that boy is out walking the streets again he is going to look like a piece of swiss cheese when theyre done with him. and all perfectly legal.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
Fattrad- I don't know much about this subject and hopefully you can edumacate me a little. Do you think the proper way to go about this would be a Grand Jury investigation to decide if there is probable cause for an arrest? What are the option for law enforcement at this point? Thanks for any feedback.


My gut instinct is to declare Zimmerman guilty and hang him myself. But my gut instinct has been wrong before. I'd like see justice served, not revenge. I guess what I'm saying is this case has created a lot of internal conflicts within myself. My emotional self wants one thing while my rational self wants something else.


I just listened to an interview with the victims dad. My heart goes out to his family, I hope they can eventually find peace. Such a senseless tragedy. :-(
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
He intended to confront him. I'd call that stalking. First following in his car, then getting out. If he had just stayed in his car, it would have come under the usual duty of a Neighborhood Watch. Watch and report.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
Bookworm you are one sick dude. read the transcripts of the 911 call from z man. even without the coon refrence it is the classic dialouge of a man on the hunt. I know a thing or two about hunting.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
unhinged; NOBODY is claiming it's "perfectly okay" that martin is dead; NOBODY is happy that he's dead; and NOBODY is claiming there's a "good reason" he's dead...we are, in fact, claiming there's a reason he's dead but NOBODY (besides zimmerman) knows what that reason is even though many people are claiming they do know; we're simply claiming there's no way, based on the evidence that has been made public, to know if zimmerman committed murder (1 or 2) or manslaughter or any crime at all; in fact, the evidence released so far indicates that he acted within the law (and that's not a defense of the law); we're simply trying to quell the rage before somebody else gets hurt

We do agree to some extent then. There's no known reason at this point. But the outrage doesn't come from nowhere does it? The known facts cast a pall outside of the reasons for shooting. Do you have a boy? How would you feel if an armed man gunned him down, your boy armed with nothing more than his fists?

Call me unhinged if you will, I'm merely parroting what I see you saying to see if it fits better in a different suit. And what if you find your mental gyrations were in the service of a murderer? Will you study your responses so astutely then?


Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
Nobody wants another lynching. What many want is thorough due process. For both sides.

none of us know all the facts. thats a fact jack.

let due process run its course.

when this story first hit i was with you guys ready to string zman to the highest tree.

now, it would seem that of course zman screwed up. i agree. but if the kid attacked him when zman was headed back to his vehicle, then this is one of those totally f*#ked up situations where the kid paid for his life by thinking he could just go thump someone.

bottom line.......none of you know all the facts. therefore, you are ignorant of all of the facts, therefore, you and I are simply spoutikng of what the press feeds us......

you guys do remember WMD's in Iraq right? lets bomb the f*#kers right???

still willing to make decisions on less than the facts?

edit:

i quoted this because although this guy disagreed with me i totally agree with the statement in quotes.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
Ok dead serious on this one. Rules Of Engagement =ROE

ROE for highly trained coalition troops in Afganistan right now is that the person Must not only be armed but aso be engageing you. If you do not see the busniss end of that AK or RPG poining directly at you, you may not engage. In many instances the US troops must wait untill the haji's actually fire on them to engage.
Florida ROE for untrained gunslingers. Any time you are afraid for your life you may open fire without requireing the person you shoot to be armed. There is also no requirement that your life actually be in danger only that you feared that your life was in danger.

Repuglicans, the most cowardly species on the planet these days.......

BTW fatty has it mostly right on this one. Zimmerman screwed up real bad and in most states even if Trevan engaged him in a fist fight zimmerman still goes down for instigateing the confrontation that ended in a homocide.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
I imagine if everyone who feels strongly about this case wrote to Disneyworld in Florida and told them that you would not be bringing your family this year due to this murder and the Stand your ground law, that the law would change pretty quickly. Because in Florida, money is what the rich folks that hide in their condos and big homes and make these laws understand. Get the Theme Parks in Florida concerned, and you will see change happen pretty quickly.
Maybe even start a boycott of Florida business and orange juice on Facebook. It can't help but take off like a raging wildfire. Hit em where it counts.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
I imagine if everyone who feels strongly about this case wrote to Disneyworld in Florida and told them that you would not be bringing your family this year due to this murder and the Stand your ground law, that the law would change pretty quickly. Because in Florida, money is what the rich folks that hide in their condos and big homes and make these laws understand. Get the Theme Parks in Florida concerned, and you will see change happen pretty quickly.
Maybe even start a boycott of Florida business and orange juice on Facebook. It can't help but take off like a raging wildfire. Hit em where it counts.


I see we have us one of them genuine thinking men on our hands. Good idea!
nature

climber
CO
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
if Z stays free some advice for him: move to a state w/o the stand your ground law.

someone will pick a fight and will shoot him and will claim they felt threatened if he stays in his hood and especially if he stays neighborhood watch.
nature

climber
CO
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
There would be no trial, that you patiently advise everyone to wait for, if there was not the public outcry and discussion that you advocate against.

worth repeating
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
im just waiting. but i cancelled a business trip to los angeles until this all blows over. i am WAYYY too white to be in that area. think jim gaffigan.


but my dog is black so i am not racist.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Dr. F how do you know they were Cubanos? brown?
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
toadgas: you have wayyy to much free time. you need to get out of your mommas basement.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
^^^ everybody's got too much time on their hands (including me).
But, you gotta take 'Zimmy' off that list. Zimmy is Bob Dylan and he wears a hoodie.

You know all those h-angels at Altamont were acting in self-defense too. F*ckin' coon had a gun didn't he? The neighborhood bullies rough up another black guy and he pulls his weapon out (in self-defense) and he ends up with a knife through his chest.



recognize z-man here?



First 40 seconds of this oughta do it "hey people ... hey people ... c'mon let's be cool ... "








Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
well if they were in Florida they must be Cuban...or Dominican, Haitian, Seminole, Jewish, Don Johnson...


..wait. Is this a Politard thread? out.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
fattrad and bookworm: you are 2 of the very few on this post with common sense. are the blacks going to blame it on the whites or the mexicans?

George Michael Zimmerman was born in 1983, the third of four children of Robert and Gladys Zimmerman. Robert, a retired military man and magistrate judge, describes the family as multiracial, telling the Orlando Sentinel that "George is a Spanish-speaking minority with many black family members and friends." Gladys is of Peruvian descent. George grew up in Manassas, Va., where neighbors describe the Zimmermans as very religious — George was an altar boy and evening receptionist at the family's parish, All Saints Catholic Church. The Zimmerman children attended Catholic school through eighth grade, then public high school. The family moved to Florida about a decade ago. George married Shellie Nicole Dean, a cosmetologist, in 2007.


What does he do for a living?
At the time he shot Martin, Zimmerman was working as an underwriter at mortgage risk-management firm Digital Risk. He had also been working on an associates degree at Seminole State College from 2009, with an eye toward law enforcement, until the school pushed him out after the shooting, citing safety reasons. In 2008, Zimmerman completed a 14-week citizens' police academy program offered by the Seminole Sheriff's Department. Zimmerman has also worked in the past as an insurance agent, and at used-car seller CarMax.

Has he had any previous run-ins with the law?
Yes, both as a victim and suspect. In 2001, Zimmerman was the victim of an unspecified minor criminal assault in Manassas. In 2005, he was arrested after a shoving match with a cop. A month later, he entered into a domestic violence dispute with ex-fiancée Veronica Zauzo; it was settled with a mutual restraining order.

What else do we know about Zimmerman?
He registered as a Democrat in 2002, according to The Washington Free Beacon. Craig Sonner, Zimmerman's lawyer, told CNN that his client had recently mentored a young black boy, taking him out to play basketball and helping raise money for the boy's church.

And what about this neighborhood watch business?
Admirers and critics in the neighborhood agree that Zimmerman was a dedicated neighborhood watch volunteer — he called 911 at least 46 times in the past six years, complaining about everything from unruly children at the pool to uncollected trash to open garages, but his recent calls focused on what he deemed suspicious characters, most of them black. Zimmerman was key in starting the neighborhood watch program, which was set up with help from the Sanford Police Department and not affiliated with the national Neighborhood Watch organization.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
@wanted poster

You know it's the leftists, cuz if it was the rightists, there'd be bullet holes in Z-man's head and an X drawn through his face.

How many of these posters have been posted by sick-ass right wingers who advocate killing doctors?

It was the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. Florida woulda loved 'em if only they hadn't been f*ckin' coons. Rag up and bang.

Coward and liar that he is, z-man never woulda challenged a Panther. Not that they were right, but they were not the chickensh*t that z-man is.




manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
what i think is funny is that of the 1000s of people that are murdered in the U.S.A. every year, that jesse jackson and co. only center on the [[white or other on black crimes. that shows racism againts whites. if you dont understand that, you are retarded.


cmon all you retards.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Good point manzanita man. They have this irrational obsession with white on black murder. It's absurd.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
at least you know.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:01am PT
Manzanitaman has an accurate take on it. IF all me are created equal by the constitution, laws and legislations, then WHY does the MEDIA focus on RACE whenever given a chance? WHY does Spike the flea-lee come crawling out of his hole when an incident such as this occurs, yet they remain silent throughout the other two thousand deaths in between such "juicy" incidents?????? They are much like the war on drugs, in the fact that they support and incite the RACE WARS in order to garnish those valuable headlines, quips and political sentiment.Thats as much a crime as the rest of it imho...
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Easy there folks.......
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:06am PT
WHY does the MEDIA focus on

the media focuses on whatever Rupert tells the media to focus on... journalism is long dead.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:10am PT
True that..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:19am PT
someon needs to tweet that to spike flea.^^^^^^^^^^^
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:20am PT
Armed man kills unarmed juvenile on a public street and is not charged.

FACKT
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:28am PT
then WHY does the MEDIA focus on RACE whenever given a chance?

Good question!

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/
nature

climber
CO
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:29am PT
StahlBro +1


oh Donald it must suck not having your brother skipt here as now your pathetic whines fall on deaf ears.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:31am PT
at LEAST five other shootings that night in the bay area alone FAKT. No one gave the slightest rip of a care. They got all of 40 seconds of news coverage. Those werent "juicy enough"..There is no rage for the real problems, but let the media heard the sheeples along when they get a "juicy" one..
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:54am PT
definitely not bursting any bubbles Donald...

in the distinction lies the discrimination
in the distinction lies the discrimination
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2012 - 01:05am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
correct. Agree
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 01:24am PT
The NWP (New White Panthers) are offering a $1,000 bounty on Spike Lee. On 2nd thought , spike lee lower case. He is a bigot, accused of hate crimes & must be brought to justice. A Chip in account in forth coming....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 30, 2012 - 02:11am PT




Emmett Louis Till (July 25, 1941 – August 28, 1955)
Murdered in Mississippi at the age of 14.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 30, 2012 - 02:21am PT
What's that got to do with this case?
Degaine

climber
Mar 30, 2012 - 03:26am PT
chaz wrote:

What's that got to do with this case?


What do the Black Panthers - or any of what bookworm and DT are spewing - have to do with this case?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:07am PT
Yeah - What donald said, he got a purty mouth.

FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:56am PT
Riley Wyna - Dr. F I don't usual agree with you guys ----- but Thank you for standing up for justice & against the sick blatant racism on this thread.
Fattrad I rarely agree with you --- but thank you for trying to stay centered & wait for the facts.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Mar 30, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Looks like Bobby Rush isn't the only one in his district that considers hoodies a fashion statement.



http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/03/30/Hoodie-Wearing-Gunmen-Kill-1-Wound-5-in-Rushs-Chicago-District
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
toadgas: did you forget to mention that those 46 calls to 911 were over a 6

year period of being a member of the neighborhood watch. by leaving out the 6

year part, you make it sound like he is calling 911 all the time. you are

doing the same thing as the rest of the black community is doing, only saying

part of the story to make your side look right. in the 6 years of being in

the neighborhood watch, how many times has zimmerman had a confrontation

that you can show? the ONLY evidence that the black community has that this

was racially motivated is that zimmerman is 1/2 white. do you have anything

else? show me the evidence. his voter registration list him as hispanic

yet you blame it on the white man and bring out the race card. are you

talking crap about hispanics because he was 1/2? no. bring on your

rationalizations about this being a race crime, i would like to hear them.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
so let me get this right. jesse jackson and the black community are fighting

racism against blacks by promoting racism against whites? is that right? WOW


im not a racist but i do hate stupid people. its just that the blacks do

stupid sh#t so often, it makes it look like racism. oakland raider fans as an

example. lose a superbowl= riot and destroy other peoples property. win a

superbowl=riot and destroy other peopls property. ANY reason to riot and

destroy and steal other people property= stupidity= im not a racist, just

prejudice against stupidity. doesnt matter the race, stupidity is

stupidity.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
Dude it's stupid on both sides ----
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
and the proof in the pudding is that if zimmerman is found guilty= riots in the streets with destruction and looting of other peoples property.

zimmerman found NOT guilty=riots in the streets with destruction and looting of other peoples property.


ANY reason to riot.

prove me wrong retards.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
frumy: really? common sense vs. whatever makes my side look good?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
Jekyll and Hyde




Zimmerman, the 28-year-old Sanford, Fla., neighborhood watch volunteer who shot the unarmed 17-year-old Martin to death last month, was fired from a job securing illegal house parties for “being too aggressive,” according to the New York Daily News, which quoted a former colleague of Zimmerman’s. According to the co-worker, Zimmerman worked for two agencies that provided security for house parties from 2001 to 2005.

“Usually he was just a cool guy,” said the former co-worker, who the newspaper didn't name. “But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When dude snapped, he snapped.” The Daily News said Zimmerman earned $50 to $100 a night for the parties. He was fired for being too aggressive with patrons.

“He had a temper and he became a liability,” the newspaper quoted the former co-worker as saying. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
norton: was she black or white or other? you are not proving anything.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
I was not trying to prove anything


just adding some new information to the mix


is that ok?

do you have to prove something to post on this thread?
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
you didnt answer the question. was she white or black.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:26pm PT

no need to ask me when you can answer your own question


why don't you exercise personal responsibility and read the link I provided?
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
and another thing. you cant have a million man march if you are working. thats why whites dont have a million man march, WE ARE ALL WORKING. get a fuking job, stupid
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
riley:what are you even saying? didnt make any sense at all. you might as well typed hykgfyhjkfryhjutyhjdtjfyuketyjuetykiery6ukier6yuie45u because your thinking makes that much sense.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
norton: the link doesnt answer the question i asked. was she black or white? the black community is making this a racially motivated crime with NO evidence except that he is 1/2 white, and you are bringing something up from his past that you have no idea of the circumstance around THAT situation[ maybe the drunk chick spit in his face or something else etc...] grasping at straws much.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
i can see that common sense doesnt run rampant on this thread.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
riley: you are STILL not proving anything i say as wrong. and i am a redneck not a halfwit, deal with it.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
Manazita, You are definatly one totaly sick dude. perhaps winning the grand prize. Meathead dumbass racist of the thread. Quite an accomplishment.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2012 - 07:11am PT
Please don't insult rednecks like that. Many myself included are damn good people, don't watch NASCAR or buy into the repuglican fantasy....
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 31, 2012 - 10:44am PT
You know the term redneck comes from the coal miners unions. The union men would tie a red scarf around their neck to ID them selfs form the thugs hired by the coal companies.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2012 - 10:56am PT
I thought it had something to do with working outside and getting the back of your neck sunburned? of course the modern version are mostly wannabes who work @ Wallmart and spend their money on NASCAR stickers....
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:21am PT
you can call me all the names you want, i dont care. none of you are proving what i said is wrong.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:28am PT
There is no need to prove a ignorant racist wrong.
michae1

Gym climber
san jose
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:36am PT
i have noticed that when some of the people here , don't like or agree with someone it starts to become nothing more then name calling, just saying
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:51am PT
when there's no place for reason in a debate, there's is no reason to debate...


WBraun

climber
Mar 31, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
i have noticed that when some of the people here , don't like or agree with someone it starts to become nothing more then name calling, just saying


This forum is not a structured moderated debate forum.

It's still the wild west. There's gunslingers at every turn.

If you're shot at better duck or shoot back. :-)

If you want to debate in a civil matter then go to court with a judge to moderate.

If you can't handle some peoples replies then just skip over them and ignore them.

Or are you that weak and fall apart if someone calls you an idiot, stupid or moron?

Americans are stupid .... :-)

lol


FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 31, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
There are some far right folks on this thread that have questioned what happened & have said wait for things to sort them selfs out, without showing any racism. With those people I can have a discussion. With out right sick racist there is no room for discussion. All you can do is point out what they are.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 31, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
That kid in the hoodie looked suspicious, so what. Call 911 whine about it and forget it.

The idiot ignored his instructions and training and went after the kid. He created a confrontation that did not exist, it was not needed.

If the kid was being an ass and the guy with the guy was being an ass and the kid hit the guy in the nose, the guy shot him dead.

There's the evidence. The kid is dead. The guy killed him because he failed to use common sense and follow the rules. He is protected by a law that was not intended for use in this situation. He needs to be prosecuted on those grounds. He's wide open for civil prosecution.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 31, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
was just at the grocery store, looking at the "rags" in the check out line. ALL of them having the same BS about this ONE incident---NONE of them with pics of spike the flea-lee or his debacle in this,, not one. Not one mentioned how many deaths from gang related or inner city related shootings stabbings etc were comitted on the same night across the US. Its all about "the juice"...Im not buyin any of it...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-video-shows-injury-george-zimmermans/story?id=16055412#.T3nrtvBSS8A

New report supports Zimmerman's claim that he had a significant injury to the back of his head at time of arrest.

This doesn't fully exonerates him, but it supports the guess as to what happened that many of us have: Zimmerman was being a weird jerk related at least in part to wannabe cop syndrome complete with racial profiling, a fight ensued, and the guy with the gun is suspected of murder of the guy without the gun is dead.

A big unknown is how much Trayvon was a completely innocent victim and how much did he escalated situation that was, at least initially, not of his own making. We'll probably never get to the bottom of that one.

While this is an interesting case, I'm not sure why it's captivated the American public.
Check this out for a recent, crazy hate crime that seems a lot more shocking to me:
http://kdvr.com/2012/04/01/man-shot-to-death-after-early-morning-traffic-altercation/

Maybe no one cares because no whites involved (as victims or perps)?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
If Obama had a son, he'd look like Trayvon...

Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
Let's Enhance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxq9yj2pVWk
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
"Maybe no one cares because no whites involved (as victims or perps)?"
Or maybe because they are some POS Gang Bangers, Drug Dealers or some other from of criminal that is killed and visits most large ERs on most days in America?

No, the victim in the Denver case I referred to was a black immigrant from Sudan, who was gunned down in front of his family by Hispanics (in a stolen car) who had thrown bottles at the black guy and yelled the N word.
They had the black guy's brother on the local TV news--he held the victim in has arms as he died. I know nothing about the black guy or his family, but pretty outrageous that you suggest that he may have been a gang banger or drug dealer. Absolutely zero evidence of that. (And remember, your favorite victim Trayvon was under suspension for drugs.)

The victim in the Denver caase had called the police, who told him to wait at a certain place for police to arrive. But by killers were faster than the police. Maybe a lesson for some of you liberals who don't think people should worry about their safety--just call cops if there's any trouble?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Enhance

I watched Blade Runner recently, don't remember seeing all those folks in it. Super Editor's cut?

Do microscopes, telescopes, MRI's, X-Rays etc. help us see something new or just help us find what we already think is there?

Was Z-man out West recently, endurance runner Micah True was found dead, might have been wearing a hoodie.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Wait, didn't Obama have an unarmed man shot????? OBL

I believe it was a group decision.

Don't we have to have a full investigation before statements like this can be made? Likewise, we probably need to have an investigation of whether the investigators mentioned above are competant to perform such an investigation.

....

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
the Fool blurted:

Wait, didn't Obama have an unarmed man shot????? OBL


damn right President Obama ordered the SEALS to kill that bastard who killed 3000 Americans.

Unlike Republican Bush who gave up even trying to find Bin Laden.

And get used to it, President Obama will kill anyone he considers a threat to the security of the United States.

Little pussies Romney and Santorum would probably "pray" rather than kill em.

Grow up Fattrad
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
fattrad
I'm not sure if Zimmerman is guilty or innocent at this point.
Guilty of what?

Do you think he's NOT guilty of chasing down a young man in the dark?
NOT guilty of accosting him?
NOT guilty of ignoring the dispatcher's advice (legally not a "command") to back off?
Did Zimmerman have ANY reason to believe that Trayvon had committed a crime?
OR that Trayvon was going to assault him before Zimmerman started his pursuit?
What LEGAL obligation was Trayvon under to halt when Zimmerman started to pursue him?

Zimmerman certainly created the confrontation. What exactly transpired during the confrontation is yet to be known. It's also largely irrelevant.

The problems with this sort of law in this situation should now be obvious.
You have untrained people, who think they are protecting their community, on the street with weapons. They are also NOT in the LEO chain of command. Ergo there is no LEO chain of responsibility.
He's not in uniform, has no badge.
The very definition of Loose Cannon. Or we could substitute the term "vigilante".
Did the dispatcher have the legal authority to call Zimmerman back? I don't think so. If he did, Zimmerman then failed to follow the directions of an officer.

Now think about it from Trayvon's point of view. Young man walking down a residential street at night. Minding his own business. Thinking of whatever he wanted to do when he got back to the house. Suddenly there's an older man chasing him down the street, yelling at him. So Trayvon has to make a split second choice, run like hell or turn and confront his pursuer. Again we don't know yet exactly what happened. Whether he had tried to flee and Zimmerman caught up with him, or if he turned towards Zimmerman, Trayvon had every reason to believe he was going to be attacked. He therefore had EVERY right to defend himself.
That's the sad, yet inevitable ending.
That's the root of the problem with this cockamaney law. And why more episodes like this are inevitable.

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
George Zimmerman, the man who shot and killed 17-year-old teen Trayvon Martin in Florida last month, was not the one screaming for help on the 911 tapes of the incident, according to two forensic experts who analyzed the evidence.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120401/zimmerman-not-the-one-screaming-911-tapes-trayvon-martin
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
Seven DEAD in shootings at a small Oakland University today!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
THAT CHANGES INTO SELP-DEFENSE

Precisely......but the other way around........it's entirely possible, even likely, Trayvon was whacking this nut so he could get away. And he had EVERY right to.
I've been assaulted on campus at night....by two (not one) college red-shirted football players (they were wearing their letter jackets).
Because I had long hair and a beard and it was the 60's.
They had been following me and then yelled at me, I turned around, one of them slugged me and I knocked him flat on his arse. I had EVERY right. Or I had every right to run like hell if I'd suspected he was going to slug me. By the time his buddy picked him up off the ground I was running like the wind. That's the way it's supposed to end when no one's carrying a firearm.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
THAT CHANGES INTO SELP-DEFENSE

Nope, they were both standing their ground. Who kills first wins.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
It's self defense when the pursued has to defend himself against a pursuer. Even more so when then pursuer has no legal reason for the pursuit.

So many what if's and how comes and why's at this point
No fattrad.
Please read my first few statements. These are KNOWN facts. They are known now and they were known to the Sanford PD at the time.

Trayvon had committed no crime (and none had been reported that evening)
Trayvon was unarmed.
He was pursued by Zimmerman.
The dispatcher had told Zimmerman not to pursue.
They ended up in an altercation.
Zimmerman shot Trayvon dead.
Zimmerman had no official LEO capacity.

The only ifs concern the final face-off before Zimmerman shot Trayvon.

Oh,
And the Sanford Police didn't arrest Zimmerman even though they KNEW he had killed Trayvon; and they let Trayvon lie in the morgue for 3 days.

What you did or didn't do as a trained and deputized LEO is irrelevant.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
Its breaking news,, 7 dead so far, shooter in custody Oikos University in Oakland...Wonder if the rags will put that one on their covers?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
Zimmerman did have the right to walk up to Martin, and say something. Even if he had to follow Martin for a while to make contact.

You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida.

I still don't know why Zimmerman hasn't been charged with something.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
I have faith in your Riley! :)

They need to use Zimmerman as an example.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
Chaz
largely I agree with you.
You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida

Except your final conclusion "even if you are in Florida". Apparently you can, and in 19 other states.
Jorroh

climber
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
Lets face it, this is the sort of stuff that happens when you let an organization like the NRA write legislation.

tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
I see the problem is that my understanding of the stand your ground law is that it was written so that the average citizen that is being attacked by a thug and in fear for his or her life can use deadly force to protect themselves vs. having to flea.

As to Zimmerman, and others who for whatever reason are essentially looking for trouble, I don't think the law should apply. I consider a large percentage of police officers being insuficiently trained to be carying firearms. Security guards, neighborhood watch etc have IMHO no business carying firearms. Tazers and pepper spray with training, ok, but they should not have firearms.

To me the entire sad event really needs to be broken up and addressed in several ways.

First and foremost a family is grieving the sensless loss of their child, cut down in the prime of life. I can't imagine the grief they are going through, and turning it into a national media and political event is disgusting.

The second issue is whether or not there is any basis to claims of this being racially motivated. Unfortunatley I don't see how this issue can be accurately assessed and dealt with as it has blown up before the facts have been adressed.

Finally the stand your ground law, which I don't see getting a fair shake due to the racial overtones that have overwelmed supporting a grieving family and being able to investigate the case in an unbiased way to see whether or not Mr. Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
Jorroh nails it:

Lets face it, this is the sort of stuff that happens when you let an organization like the NRA write legislation.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
HT,

Good points. Clear and logical. I hope that common sense also prevails in the FL courts so that this family can at least see some justice.



Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
You know all those h-angels at Altamont were acting in self-defense too. F*ckin' coon had a gun didn't he? The neighborhood bullies rough up another black guy and he pulls his weapon out (in self-defense) and he ends up with a knife through his chest.

I looked at the Meredith Hunter entry on Wikipedia. Comparing him to Trevon Martin is quite a stretch...

(excerpt)
Fueled by LSD and large amounts of amphetamines, the crowd had also become antagonistic and unpredictable, attacking each other, the Angels, and the performers. By the time the Rolling Stones took stage in the early evening, the mood had taken a decidedly ugly turn as numerous fights began to erupt between Angels and crowd members and within the crowd itself. Projectiles started being thrown at the stage. The Angels retaliated by hurling back full cans of beer from their stockpile and swinging sawed-off weighted pool cues and motorcycle chains to drive the crowd farther back from the stage.

Lead singer Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones (who had already been punched by a concertgoer within seconds of emerging from his helicopter[4]) was visibly intimidated by the unruly situation, urging everyone to "Just be cool down in the front there, don't push around." Within a minute of starting their third song, "Sympathy for the Devil", a fight erupted in the front of the crowd, at the foot of the stage. After a lengthy pause and another appeal for calm, the band restarted "Sympathy" and continued their set with less incident until the start of "Under My Thumb". At this point, two of the Hell's Angels got into a scuffle with Hunter when he attempted to get onstage with other fans. One of the Hell's Angels grabbed Hunter's head, punched him, and chased him back into the crowd.

After a few seconds Hunter angrily returned to the front of the stage where, according to Gimme Shelter producer Porter Bibb, Hunter's girlfriend Patty Bredahoff found him and tearfully begged him to calm down and move farther back in the crowd with her. By her report he was enraged, irrational and "so high he could barely walk".[5] Rock Scully, who could see the audience clearly from the top of a truck by the stage, noticed Hunter clearly in the crowd, remembering, that “I saw what he was looking at, that he was crazy, he was on drugs, and that he had murderous intent. There was no doubt in my mind that he intended to do terrible harm to Mick or somebody in the Rolling Stones, or somebody on that stage."[6]

At this point, footage from the documentary shows Hunter (seen in the film in a lime-green suit) drawing a long-barreled black revolver from his jacket and pointing it in the air.[7] The film clearly shows a bright orange flash at the end of the pistol in one frame. Porter Bibb says it is impossible to determine whether the flash is a gunshot, a reflection, or something else.[8] The film then shows Hells Angel Alan Passaro, armed with a knife, running at Hunter from the side, parrying the gun with his left hand and stabbing him with his right. The footage was shot by Eric Saarinen who was on stage taking pictures of the crowd. Saarinen was unaware of having caught the incident on film. This was discovered more than a week later when rushes were screened in the New York offices of the Maysles Brothers.

In the film sequence, lasting about two seconds, a six-foot opening in the crowd appears, leaving Patty Bredahoff in the center. Hunter enters the opening from the left, his hand rises and the silhouette of a revolver is clearly seen against Bredahoff's bright crocheted dress. Passaro is seen entering from the right and delivering two stabs as he pushes Hunter off screen. The opening closes around Bredahoff. Passaro is reported to have stabbed Hunter five times in the upper back. Witnesses also reported Hunter was stomped on by several Hells Angels while he was on the ground. The gun was recovered and turned over to police. Hunter's autopsy later confirmed his girlfriend's report that he did have methamphetamine in his bloodstream at the time of his death.

Aftermath

Passaro was arrested and charged with murder for Meredith's death, but was acquitted on the grounds of self-defense after the jury viewed the footage from the concert showing Hunter drawing the revolver and pointing it in the air."
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Apr 2, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
7 dead 3 wounded by korean man at a christian university - Oakland Ca.


it will be ok since they were christians im thinkin,, knowing Obamas views. the media will concour.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
A wacko going off. No racial overtones. What's your point? Is there a controversial law involved?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
my point is ALL this press -totally manipulated to turn "racial" is to garner support of a party. No mention of the number that die every day in the USA> but TONS over one isolated incident where two most likely to be jack wagons ended up in violent confrontation. I wait with baited breath to see if spike the flea lee comes out in protest of the korean shooting chrirstians lol! Lets see if that makes every RAGS cover. This whole thread is what THEY wanted. Election time, have to make the most out of the juice!


edit:heck,, i cant hardly get a nibble on this thread, thus the proof of how zombied you all are on about one little incident in a state none of you are even close to...STATES rights are our ONLY hope. If you dont like them, dont live there. Lots of Californians here, you should be talking about whats going on in your own hoods!!!
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
hey ron, i agree. but i heard the shooter in oakland was 1/8 white on his mothers side and 1 of the victims is 1/5 black on the fathers side. isnt that just cause for jackson and co to have another million man im unemployed and on welfare march?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
4000 black young men died violently last year.

The poverty pimps

nary a peep.


Didn't lead to a politically or financially productive narrative.

Same for a dead Christian.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
Ya just never know the angles they will dig up..what i do fully realize is that it will be twisted for an agenda and most likely be guano ...
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
Why doesn't the gun lobby make a big deal about this? Try to make it easier to own/carry guns.

After all, if some were packin in that classroom, the shooter might have thought twice?

Makes about as much sense as your contrived argument.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
tell me why woould this one TINY incident be on the cover of every RAG mag out there!?? with election time coming. THINK about it....Step away,,,look at a longer turn of events due to this media blitzkreig.... Then ask why are they ignoring others much,, much worse.....
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
race, controversial law, upsurge of justifiable homocide incidents.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
tell me why woould this one TINY incident be on the cover of every RAG mag out there!?? with election time coming. THINK about it....Step away,,,look at a longer turn of events due to this media blitzkreig.... Then ask why are they ignoring others much,, much worse.....


It's like that all the time. Real genocide and atrocities go down and we focus on stuff like Natalie Holloway. Real issues are on the table and all we care about is the President's pecker.

It is a messed up law and this case highlights that. That it's gaining traction as a race issue kind of loses the point, methinks, but race still is an issue in this country, don't fool yourself.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
chaz:
You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida.

The way Florida courts have been interpreting this law, you could shoot Tyson.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
TGT: out of 4000 young black men killed 3975 were killed by other black men. doesnt that prove that blacks are racist against blacks WAY more often than whites are against blacks? just asking.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
TGT: out of 4000 young black men killed 3975 were killed by other black men. doehttp://www.supertopo.com/inc/postreply.php?topic_id=1780615&tn=540#snt that prove that blacks are racist against blacks WAY more often than whites are against blacks?

No, what that proves is you have major issues with logic.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
numbers dont lie.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
hate crime = i hate you so i am going to kill you. if i went to downtown oakland and walked around, i would be shot. why? because i am white. is that racism? yes if you have common sense, no if you are black. give me a logical rebuttal instead of name calling. name calling just proves that the truth hurts.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:02am PT
Gary writes:

"The way Florida courts have been interpreting this law, you could shoot Tyson."


I'm not so sure, Gary. I see a clear distinction between standing your ground, and starting some sh#t. Based on how things escalated, and how things turned out, a reasonable person would have to say Zimmerman was the one starting some sh#t.

I'd bet the "stand your ground" law doesn't even apply here. At least I hope it doesn't. The guy who wrote the law thinks it doesn't apply here.