Florida stand Your ground law?

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tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 20, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
What are your thoughts on this? I find it pretty effin disturbing in the way it seems to be implemented? Sounds like a loophole where anyone can claim they were afraid as justification for killing someone. It seems to have removed the whole thing where you have to prove that a life was actually in iminent danger and that the perp had the means and intentions to take a life. In Fla it seems that all you have to say is that you were afraid so you wasted him in self defense..

In the recent Zimmerman case you have a wanna be cop who could not make the force due to being Rejected roaming the streets armed looking for troubble. He spots a victim, stalks that victim and kills him then claimes he was afraid for his life? WTF
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
Terrible law. Castle Doctrine are understandable. This though? Not good.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
"Stand your ground" doesn't apply here.

There's a difference between standing your ground, and looking for trouble.

This Zimmermann guy was looking for trouble.

I don't know why he hasn't been arrested
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
You should post the text of the law itself, very disturbing. As I read it, if the shooter isn't convicted of criminal charges, then the family can't even bring a wrongful death suit in civil court.

And yeah, Zimmerman murdered that kid. Unreal that he isn't in custody.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
You can make a case for the dead teen to be in fear of his life and allowed to use deadly force against his killer, but you can bet he would be in jail now if he did. The stand your ground law should not apply here. Zimmerman was told by 911 not to pursue. So terribly sad.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
Read one piece today that outlined a few other instances in FL similarly troubling where the shooter also wasn't arrested based on this law. Scary stuff. I bet Texas is happy having the focus taken off of them. :/
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
the whole thing makes me sick..
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
From: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

The 2011 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

View Entire Chapter
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
History.—s. 1, ch. 2005-27.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
Here's some from further down the legal text (sec 776.032, (3))

"(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1). "

So they essentially immunize the guy against civil suit if they don't prosecute on the criminal side.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
#3 is the loophole. the presumed to be in iminent danger part is way to vauge. Anyone can presume anything.. Seems like FL has no interest in checking the facts to see if there was actually a real threat to human life VS a Precieved threat.

Put this in climbing terms; Anyone who precieves that a route is dangerous may add as many bolts as nessicary to make said route safe. There would be G rated 5.5 crack climbs getting retro bolted by some pansy assed wanker who precieved them to be dangerous....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 06:14am PT
Ron, it seems like people are able to say that they were afraid for their life without haveing to prove that their life was actually in real jeprody. Precieved danger vs actual danger are very often two entirely different things.

How would you feel if one of your unarmed children was killed by a hair trigger pansy assed wimp just because that wimp was afraid? how would you feel if the shooter walked?

Without language in there that killers need to prove that they were actualy in real danger it seems like a licence to murder? Anyone can precieve any damn thing they want regardless of the reality of the situation and the cops won't touch it because the shooter will walk as long as they say they precieved danger?

It is precisly crap like this that makes me feel that the NRA are a bunch of cluless whack jobs.
I have no problem with a stand your ground law as long as you can prove that the person you shot #1 had the means to kill you or other innocent person. #2 had the intent to kill. Without the requirement of proof that there was actual danger = the means to kill and the intent to kill the law is literaly a licence to kill anyone you want as long as you say you were afraid of them. That is certainly how the law seems to be interpreted in FL if you read some of the previous cases.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 06:45am PT
Reily. they have bunch of other cases down there in FL that had not made the mainstream news.. Its the words (Precieved danger) that creates the loophole.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:16am PT
Can't find it now, but gangsters have been let off the hook after shoot outs due to this law. By the law, once a person claims they acted in self-defense, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. And as this case proves so far, you can pursue someone and then kill them if they turn on you. The law states you only have to believe you're threatened:
:776.012 Use of force in defense of person. — A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/19/3501457/floridas-self-defense-law-complicates.html
The state self-defense law eliminated a citizen's duty to retreat before using deadly force to confront an attacker. Police and prosecutors statewide have said the the law fosters a shoot-first, ask-questions-later mentality.

The law includes a provision that grants "immunity" from prosecution or civil lawsuits if a person is deemed to have acted in self-defense, though lawmakers did not clearly specify exactly who bestows the immunity.

After a series of court battles across the state, the Florida Supreme Court in December 2010 ruled that judges should be the ones to consider evidence under a looser standard than the familiar "beyond a reasonable doubt" one used before juries in criminal cases.

Since then, South Florida judges have dismissed charges in several murder cases in which defendants sought immunity based on the law.

Last month, however, Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Milton Hirsch denied the immunity claim of a Florida International University student who stabbed an unarmed football player to death during a brawl.

The law "does not justify the use of deadly force in response to threats or shows of force of any and ever kind. In ordinary circumstances a push or a slap may be met with a push or a slap, or perhaps a punch - but not with a bullet," Hirsch said.

Miami-Dade defense attorney Jeffrey Weiner, who recently had a murder case thrown out by a judge on self-defense grounds, said: "The shooter must be able to point out, preferably with witnesses, that he wasn't just seeking vigilante justice."

Still, legal experts say Zimmerman, if arrested, would probably be charged with manslaughter, not murder - and would have a strong defense under Florida's law, with a judge needing to decide first whether he is immune from prosecution.

"I think absolutely this is a case that squarely falls within the Stand Your Ground immunity statute," said defense attorney Bill Matthewman. "Even if he shouldn't have been following 1/8Martin3/8 he's not committing a crime and he can stand his ground."


This just in from Indiana. Senate Bill 1:
"Self defense. Specifies that a person may use reasonable force against any other person in certain circumstances. Provides that a person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to: (1) protect the person or a third person from unlawful force; (2) prevent or terminate the public servant's unlawful entry into the person's dwelling; or (3) prevent or terminate the public servant's criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession. Specifies that a person is not justified in using force against a public servant if: (1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime; (2) the person provokes action by the public servant with intent to injure the public servant; (3) the person has entered into combat with the public servant or is the initial aggressor; or (4) the person reasonably believes the public servant is acting lawfully or is engaged in the lawful execution of the public servant's official duties. Provides that a person is not justified in using deadly force against a public servant whom the person knows or reasonably should know is a public servant unless: (1) the person reasonably believes that the public servant is acting unlawfully or is not engaged in the execution of the public servant's official duties; and (2) the force is reasonably necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person."
Lightenin'

Gym climber
Muleshoeville
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:27am PT
Seems entirely reasonable to me. If someone is forceably entering my house or car I'm gonna be afraid for my life. If I had a gun, I wouldn't think twice about it. If I am elsewhere and someone attacks me, I'm gonna be afraid in that situation, too. People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:32am PT
You can shoot someone if you BELIEVE they are going to attempt to harm you.

There is a difference.
Lightenin'

Gym climber
Muleshoeville
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:37am PT
The way I read it is says you have to be attacked or someone has to be entering. That says to me that there has had to have been overt behavior by someone else. I may have missed it, but don't see belief?
WBraun

climber
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:47am PT
The way all laws are set up in the world are:

You can shoot anyone anytime you want anywhere.

You just have to make sure you do it right ...... :-)
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:50am PT
I think that regardless of the self-defense issue, any time someone kills someone else, they should be locked up that minute. There needs to be a period of time when the cops can investigate the incident so that they can determine if the shooter is completely nuts and likely to run around killing more people. Maybe it's cool to let someone go a few hours later but they should have initially treated this like a murder until there was any evidence at all either way.

The fact that the victim was unarmed and going about his lawful business seems like enough reason to throw out the self-defense claim immediately. There should be no "I'm a pansy with a gun and got myself into this situation because I'm an ass" defense!

It would suck for the victim but society may have been better off if this guy found another gun and killed another person a few hours later. That would have gotten rid of this concept of going scot-free after a shooting.

Dave
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

Many readers have asked whether, given the 911 recordings, a case against Zimmerman would be easier than most homicides in which "self-defense" is cited by a defendant. In Florida, the answer probably is no: The courts' interpretation of the stand-your-ground law has been extremely broad—so broad that, to win an acquittal, a defendant doesn't even have to prove self-defense, only argue for it, while to win a conviction the prosecution has to prove that self-defense was impossible.

Numerous cases have set the precedent in Florida, with the courts arguing that the law "does not require defendant to prove self-defense to any standard measuring assurance of truth, exigency, near certainty, or even mere probability; defendant's only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable." When a defendant claims self-defense, "the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense." In other words the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt never shifts from the prosecution, so it's surprisingly easy to evade prosecution by claiming self-defense.

This has led to some stunning verdicts in the state. In Tallahassee in 2008, two rival gangs engaged in a neighborhood shootout, and a 15-year-old African American male was killed in the crossfire. The three defendants all either were acquitted or had their cases dismissed, because the defense successfully argued they were defending themselves under the "stand your ground" law. The state attorney in Tallahassee, Willie Meggs, was beside himself. "Basically this law has put us in the posture that our citizens can go out into the streets and have a gun fight and the dead person is buried and the survivor of the gun fight is immune from prosecution," he said at the time.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Mar 21, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
It is worth noting that there has been more than a two-fold increase in "justifiable homicides" in Florida since the law went into effect. Most places "justifiable homicide" is a very rare determination (unless it's cops doing the shooting--a whole 'nother story)but it now seems to be pretty routine in Florida. The law in every state, including Florida pre-"stand your ground" allows the use of force, even deadly force, in self-defense in certain strictly-defined circumstances. By enacting this vast expansion of pre-existing law Florida (and probably some other states as well?) has effectively given a license to kill to armed yohos like Zimmerman--and there are plenty of others like him out there (and maybe even a few on here).
Barbarian

Trad climber
New and Bionic too!
Mar 21, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
I'm afraid for my safety with laws like this on the books. What are the implications of that?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Heinlein predicted it. The world gets more and more dangerous.
Being out in public puts you at risk.

Lock yourselves in. Work from home. Order food.

Climb in your dreams...





My prediction;
Zimmerman gets convicted of violating the civil rights of the kid in federal court, then gets taken to the cleaners in civil court but the victim's family never collects half.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
I'm afraid for my safety with laws like this on the books. What are the implications of that?

When "stand your ground" laws are combined with more and more concealed carry laws, the implications are pretty clear.

If somebody gives you a dirty look on the street, you can just cap their ass. You believed they were a threat. They might be carrying, after all.

I once knew a group of NRA and CRPA competition shooters. When they were all sitting around together, the main topic of conversation was hoping somebody would screw with them on the street. They were all drooling to plug somebody. Now these new laws are bringing paradise to their door.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
Thanks, Gary, for the clarification. The broad interpretation of the "fear" defense makes the law's application irrational, if not immoral. It sickens me to think that a Zimmerman can escape prosecution, much less, As El Cap points out, that he's potentially even insulated from civil liability. I wonder if federal Civil Rights legislation applies. That would at least trump the immunity from civil suits.

In contrast, I think someone inside a dwelling or a car has every right to believe he or she is in imminent danger of great bodily harm if someone else is trying to enter forcibly. People entering forcibly should have to overcome a very high burden of proof to show that an occupant used unreasonable force. Frankly, a law like Florida's seems, to me, perfectly justified if confined to forcible entry of occupied dwellings or cars, or walking into your home and finding an intruder. The Zimmerman situation, however, looks like a travesty right out of the worst days of the post-Reconstruction South.

John

Edit: Piton Ron, I see you beat me to it.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
In contrast, I think someone inside a dwelling or a car has every right to believe he or she is in imminent danger of great bodily harm if someone else is trying to enter forcibly.

You betcha. John, your a professional, how do you think this will evolve?

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
Gary,

There have been plenty of civil cases in which an intruder has sued the homeowner for excessive force. In most places, there's no presumption or immunity to help the homeowner. The intruder usually loses, but so does the homeowner, because the allegations require an expensive defense, and there is no "loser pays" shifting of attorney's fees.

Contrast that with the booby-trap cases. For example, an owner of a seldom-used cabin rigs a spring gun while he or she is absent. Intruder opens the door and gets shot. The homeowner loses in that situation, because he or she was not at bodily risk.

The real problem with the Florida law is section (3) which, as you point out, basically allows violence whenever and wherever you feel like it. If one Zimmerman-type killed another Zimmerman-type, that would just be Darwinian promotion of natural selection. When, on the other hand, Zimmerman kills a completely innocent victim . . . I don't even need to finish the sentence. The unspeakable injustice is obvious.

John
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
The state attorney in Tallahassee, Willie Meggs, was beside himself. "Basically this law has put us in the posture that our citizens can go out into the streets and have a gun fight and the dead person is buried and the survivor of the gun fight is immune from prosecution," he said at the time.

This law favors whoever is the fastest to draw and shoot, so long as is able to shoot to kill. Dead men tell no tales.

This law is good, if are a killer.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
How fast would the guy have gone to jail if he was black and shot a white kid?

There are some freaking ignorant SOB's overseeing the application of our laws in some of these places. His ass should be in jail until he can prove he was in danger. He F-ing killed an unarmed kid on a public street for Buddhas sake!

I lived in Georgia for a while and love the South for the most part, but some of them haven't joined the 21st century yet.

Pretty soon some will bust a cap on you for flipping them off.

They should fence off part of Texas for people that want to believe they still live in the Wild West. They can carry in the open and kill eachother for any percieved insult.

BTW - If someone breaks into my house, they better see me first. I don't have a gun, but I have a pretty sharp samurai sword and won't hesitate to remove the threat or portions there of.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
Sean Connery's line in The Untouchables comes to mind when I hear somebody boast of their ability with a hand held edged weapon.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Yep. Not a boast though. It is all I have ;-)

Haven't heard of too many people getting accidentally killed with sword.

Just a personal choice.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Fattrad,

I remember. I lived in LA during the peak of the road rage shootings.

I remember a movie with Steve Martin (I think the programable freeway signs were talking to him) where he told the passenger "Cover me, I am going to change lanes".

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
There have been numerous cases in So. Calif. of shots fired over getting flipped off on the freeway.

The difference, fattrad, is that in Florida, and the other states that are adapting this, the shooter will get off. A car is a deadly weapon, after all.

The Indiana law is interesting, too. You can plug "public servants" entering your house. The Republicans that passed it say it won't do what it says, but...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
In Cal they shoot for flipping the bird but in Florida they don't bother flipping off drivers because they are mostly octogenerians who can't see to begin with.

You might not be safe from pistolero vigilantes walking around the neighborhood but the roads are worse!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 22, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
You says that he is following Trayvon and then at 2:18 mutters "f*#king coons." You can clearly hear it.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2012/03/22/probably_a_bad_idea_to_mutter_a_racial_slur_on_a_911_call.html

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/florida-shooting-focuses-attention-on-stand-your-ground-law/

Trevor Dooley stood his ground, brandished his gun and killed a man after an argument over local skateboarding rules in a Florida town.

He argued in court last month that he had a right to do so under the state’s Stand Your Ground law...

...the law is currently being invoked as a key defense by Mr. Dooley.

The man he killed, David James, had been playing basketball with his 8-year-old daughter in September 2010 when he and Mr. Dooley began arguing over whether a boy on a skateboard had a right to ride on the court, according to an account in The St. Petersburg Times. There was a “physical confrontation,” the police said, during which Mr. Dooley fired the weapon he was carrying, killing Mr. James in front of his daughter.

“You agree you do not want to go to prison for killing David James?” he was asked at the trial, according to televised footage from the courtroom.

“I don’t think I should,” responded Mr. Dooley, who has been charged with manslaughter but says he feared for his life during the altercation with Mr. James.

His lawyers are seeking to have the case dismissed by a judge on the grounds that the Stand Your Ground law permitted him to defend himself with deadly force...

...Q: Can an unarmed person legally pose a deadly threat?

In case after case during the past six years, Floridians who shot and killed unarmed opponents have not been prosecuted. Former National Rifle Association President Marion Hammer, a major force behind the law’s passage, cited her own size and age in 2006 interview with the Sentinel about what she would do if confronted by a younger and larger aggressor.

“I’m 4-foot-11. I’m 67 years old,” she said. “If you came at me, and I felt that my life was in danger or that I was going to be injured, I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot you.”
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
I changed my mind...Let's fence off Florida instead of Texas.

In recent times, "stand your ground" laws extended this concept in many states beyond the home to any place where a person might lawfully be found, such as a bar or a public sidewalk. Florida's version enacted in 2005 (over the objection of many in law enforcement) is one of the most far reaching.
The law states that a person "who is attacked" anywhere he is lawfully present has "no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."
Importantly, a person cannot invoke this provision if he is "engaged in unlawful activity" or "initially provokes the use of force against himself." Finally, in Florida, once self-defense becomes an issue at trial, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense -- a heavy burden.

Read more: http://www.wxii12.com/news/30728543/detail.html#ixzz1pspnyytD

"reasonably believes"...wow...there is something that is not open to intepretation.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
How does one claim to be attacked, when he's the one doing the attacking?

This law doesn't apply here.

I don't understand why this guy hasn't been arrested.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
This case presents the road-map for any would-be murderers in Florida: simply make sure your victim isn't around to contradict you.

At best, it's vagueness will obstruct or deter prosecution of actual criminals, at worst, this law and the coverage of this case could achieve the real intent of the NRA who proposed it; even more gun sales.

TE



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
again the real huge loophole is in #3 he or she precieves the threat of grave bodily harm. Seems like any good lawer can get you off the hook with that preception clause.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Something most of the tacos can agree upon!

It's a terrible law.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
Yep, the taco agrees on two things- North Dakota sucks and you should not be able gun people down for no reason.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
I believe in Draw first....

If you feel threatened, you should be able to draw and hold them for a LEO to come. Obviously if they pull something on you or keep coming at you or your property or persons, then you use force. If they run, well, still call a LEO or get the heck out of there.

It's all circumstantial of course. I honestly think Zimmerman knew what he was doing when he called the cops. I was another way in his mind of justification. He should be charged with 1st degree murder. It was premeditated as soon as he called. Why else would he have continued if the cop told him to stop following him?

I don't believe everyone should be able to own a gun, or carry one. There's nothing practical you can really do about it... But if I know dangerous people out there are carrying, i'd feel much better carrying.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
LOL Ron, the Florida law is way different from most states that do not have a 'stand your ground' law like California. In CA if you have an alternative to deadly force, like not stalking your victim as Zimmerman did, you are required to use it.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
"Officer, all I had was my phone, and my wasr-4. I was on the phone with you guys while the guy was coming into my window with his pistol first."


This whole racial debate is pissing me off more than the law. Who cares what the guy's race is? Oh, he's white. It must be racist. NO! He's Mexican, Mexicans aren't racist!

Does anyone know where the young kid was shot on the body? Chest? Back? Head?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
Ron, you are a sick man. And I am a gun owner and former IPSC shooter.
There is a HUGE difference between a precieved threat and an actual threat. Any paranoid wanna be gunfighter can precieve a threat from just about anyone. If there is an actual iminenet threat as in the perp has both the intention and the MEANS to snuff you I am all for giveing the perp a dirt nap. Shooting people just because you are afraid of them is pathetic.
You pop someone because you are a pussy with an itchy trigger finger and that gun turns out to be a cell phone you deserve to do serious long term hard time.
Gene

climber
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence. State alcohol agents said Zimmerman pushed them while they were arresting a friend of his during an underage drinking operation at a bar. Zimmerman avoided a conviction by going into a pretrial program that is offered to people with no prior arrests.
http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/246445/19/George-Zimmerman-shooter-in-Trayvon-Martin-case

This guy had a concealed carry permit? Habitual 911 caller? Packing heat as a Neighborhood Watch guy?

He sounds like a guy who might feel his life was threatened by his own shadow. Told not to follow Trayvon but did anyway? Whacked the kid. Something is very wrong here. The FL law, the concealed carry permit, the whatever…

Now, what did Trayvon do to merit his early demise? Remind me.

Sheesh!

g
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Actually TMC, there is an important element of the law most non-attorneys ignore.

To commit a "crime" the perpetrator must have criminal intent.
If Ron is downtown and a teenager flashes what turns out to be an airsoft gun tucked in his pants.
Ron perceives a threat, verbal or physical.
Shoots the stupid kid.

He hasn't committed a crime because there was no mens rea (criminal intent).
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
Ron, you are a sick man. And I am a gun owner and former IPSC shooter.
There is a HUGE difference between a precieved threat and an actual threat. Any paranoid wanna be gunfighter can precieve a threat from just about anyone. If there is an actual iminenet threat as in the perp has both the intention and the MEANS to snuff you I am all for giveing the perp a dirt nap. Shooting people just because you are afraid of them is pathetic.
You pop someone because you are a pussy with an itchy trigger finger and that gun turns out to be a cell phone you deserve to do serious long term hard time.

I read the law and don't see the problem with it. It only applies when the person claiming the benefit of it "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
Deciding what's "reasonable" is a huge part of lots of legal concepts and generally comes down to a jury decision (or a judge decision if the judge decides that a "reasonable" (there's that word again) jury could only see the facts one way. (But a judge cannot enter a conviction in a criminal case, no matter what the facts are.)

It's possible I'm overlooking something and the law is as bad as you all say, but it seems to me that the problem isn't with the law because most (or all) of us don't think what the shooter did was "reasonable," and so the law shouldn't even apply.

As an aside, if ElCap thinks the law means you can't successfully bring a wrongful death action if criminal charges aren't brought (or aren't successful), I believe he's mistaken.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
I have been reading every news story that pops up on yahoo the last few days concerning this issue and there are numerous refrences to AG,s and LEO's saying that they can not prosecute many of the bad shootings simply because the shooter has all the cards stacked in his favor.. the justifiable homicide rate has trippled since the enactment of the law.

Most people will probobly accept that pointing a fake gun at someone during an altrication is a good way to get a dirt nap... when that threat turns out to be imaginary in the form of a bag of skittles or a cell phone then you do need to be held accountable for your actions INMOP..
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
Give him life in jail with no possibility of parole. How the f*ck do you mix up a cup of tea and bag of skittles for anything other than those? Zimmerman could plead insanity, for whatever liberalistic bullshit reason, but he should still get life in prison nonetheless.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Ron, all the pros are saying the FL law is full of loopholes that let bad shooters off the hook. They are saying that the FL law gives the armed citizen much less restrictions than even law enforecement. That is bad juju INMOP.
laughingman

Mountain climber
Seattle WA
Mar 22, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
This tragility cements my theory it is impossible to be young Africa American Male and walk down the street safely in many towns in america without being labeled a threat.
Gene

climber
Mar 22, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
BYOB - Black Youth Out of Bounds.

So sad.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 22, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
I'd say this law is not working out.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
Well I don't want to be on the wrong side of a lawful gun owner who makes a mistake. & it happens a lot.
And as in Florida this case was not look into properly!!!!

As many aren't.

10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:19am PT
zimmerman is a wack job. he called 911 forty six consecutive times claiming he was in danger.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:09am PT
Does anyone know where the young kid was shot on the body? Chest? Back? Head?

Chest.


As for the racism angle, CNN did a clean up of the 911 audio and it's pretty clear that the shooter says "these f*#king coons, they always get away" during the call. Unless you believe the man was suddenly confronted by a family of racoons fleeing up a palm tree, I don't see any compelling reason to believe that race wasn't an issue.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 08:49am PT
The law, approved under former Governor Jeb Bush after a big push by pro-gun advocates led by the National Rifle Association, was passed over numerous objections from the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association and state law enforcement officials. Florida's Republican governor, Rick Scott, announced the formation of a task force on Thursday to "thoroughly review" the law in the wake of the Martin shooting.

"Basically it's a law that fixed something that wasn't broken, and then it created a lot of problems," said William "Willie" Meggs, veteran state attorney for the 2nd Judicial Circuit in Tallahassee, the Florida capital.

Republican State Representative Dennis Baxley, one of the authors of the Stand Your Ground law, said it did not protect people who pursued and confronted their victims, as occurred in Sanford, according to lawyers for the parents of the dead teenager.

"That's where he (Zimmerman) stepped out on thin ice away from protection of this statute," he said.

Defending Stand Your Ground, Baxley said that while errors may occur, such as the death of Martin, it was important that the law err on the side of those who fear they are facing "a perceived" threat.

"That's good public policy. I think we have a good statute and I would hate to lose anything in it that protects people from harm. It saves lives," Baxley added. End quote.

This line is what really gets under my skin!

"it was important that the law err on the side of those who fear they are facing "a perceived" threat."

Really! those who fear they are faceing a precieved threat? what a bunch of trigger happy repuglican pansy assed whimps! heck I have stood down and diffused REAL threats, Not PRECIEVED threats without ever haveing to seriously hurt anyone. These tools are simply looking for an excuse to shoot someone.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:41am PT
As an individual who works as a trial lawyer, I am highly dubious of any recording (or photograph) that has been "cleaned up"--as there is no real distinction between "cleaning up" and "manipulating". So while, Zimmerman may well have said those words--and probably did--I still can't put too much weight on them for legal purposes. However, in this case, we really don't have to, as Zimmerman's other words and actions clearly show that this was a racially-motivated intentional murder. In his first 911 that evening, he specifically, and unnecessarily mentions Mr. Martin's race, and describes that factor as being one of the reasons that he is suspicious of him. That is followed by his total disregard of the dispatcher's instructions not to follow Mr. Martin. But most disturbing of all is the part of the last call before the fatal confrontation that doesn't require any enhancing. His tone, his staccato way of speaking, and his noticeable breathing are all indicative of someone on the hunt and about to move in for the kill---extremely chilling.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:16am PT
there is no real distinction between "cleaning up" and "manipulating"

While I agree with you that it's not likely to make it in as evidence, I disagree with the above quote. There is a very clear distinction. Using simple band pass filters outside the frequency of the human voice to filter out line noise/static/etc is in no way "manipulation".
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Cold blooded murder!

And the PD are totally spineless and corrupt...
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:58am PT
Elcap--While that may be true, unless you did it yourself, how can you be certain that was the procedure followed by CNN and not some further "enhancing"? While I've had less experience with "sound", I have personally seen a number of supposedly "cleaned-up" digital images that were in fact "altered"--it is amazing what changing a few pixels can do!!!! My main point is, however, that the portions of Zimmerman's calls that didn't require any "clean-up" are damning in themselves--let alone his history of multiple prior unnecessary 911s.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:26am PT
I feel threatened by the NRA may I shoot NRA members?

I was once a member. I left the NRA because it is one of the most corrupt business around.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
what a bunch of trigger happy repuglican pansy assed whimps!

Hey, who are you calling repuglican?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Them florida gunslingers.. The ones who passed the law and those who use it to hunt people.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
I left the NRA because it is one of the most corrupt business around

+1
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Seems entirely reasonable to me. If someone is forceably entering my house or car I'm gonna be afraid for my life. If I had a gun, I wouldn't think twice about it. If I am elsewhere and someone attacks me, I'm gonna be afraid in that situation, too. People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?

Agreed
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
Hopefully the Feds will come in and prosecute this jackass and send him to prison for most of the rest of his life.

It's not a Federal Gov't issue (and Obama should keep his mouth shut). Murder, manslaughter etc occur every day and they are for the most part investigated by local authorities/jurisdictions.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Actually if there is a racial/civil rights issue, it IS a fed issue. Secondly, you seem to have missed the fact that this wasn't inside someone's house, that the killer chased and accosted the kid, and the local DA/PD have not done a damn thing to investigate. They didn't even ID the kid for several days despite his cell phone being there.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Dave, unless or until it is considered a "hate crime" or something of the sorts, I don't see the "civil right violation" in this case.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:51pm PT

Yep, this kid had a hoodie on because it was raining, and skittles in his pocket...be very afraid.

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/22/149126015/a-moms-advice-to-her-young-black-sons

ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
Sounds like Voluntary Manslaughter. If the Feds were to "rightly" get involved, it would be with investigating the LEOs in charge. But since this is starting to get political they will get involved and more spin about gun restrictions and racial dividing will occur.

It's a tragic thing that happened to this young fellow and his family.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
this brochure is clear about the use of deadly force:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/forms/P-00090-DeadlyForce-0911.pdf


it's not a bad law; i don't think there's anything in it that's disagreeable (what's bad is that it needs to be spelled out)

i doubt zimmerman can be charged with murder; likely manslaughter, but a conviction may be difficult because the only witness is dead--who can prove that zimmerman did not fear for his life?


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
I don't think there will be a need to prove anything about whether he feared for his life.

The law as written indicates that the shooter would have to be in a place he was legally entitled to be, and it appears he was in someone's yard, not his own, which I assume would be trespassing.

Seems to me the SYG law doesn't apply in this case, and therefore fear for his life is not a factor. I wonder what a jury will think about his claiming fear for his life when he got out of his car, chased the kid, accosted him, and outweighed him by about 100lb. If I'm on that jury, I ain't buying it.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
I stand by my prediction.

Civil rights is civil rights. There doesn't have to be a hate crime act, but in this case it sure sounds like there WAS.
Gene

climber
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
who can prove that zimmerman did not fear for his life?

The issue is whether Zimmerman had a reasonable fear that his life was in danger. Did he have options that would not have resulted in Trayvon’s death while maintaing his own (Zimmerman's) security? Was he told to butt out by 911? Did he? Were his actions reasonable? Let a jury decide.

g
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Mar 23, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
bookworm said,
who can prove that zimmerman did not fear for his life?

Besides all the other above information...More information the police knew the day of the shooting....Two witnesses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cWwUAbbWnk&feature=related

Two more..

This one is creepy, you can hear the kid yelling for help several times.....then the gun goes off...I feel sick after listening to this. It made me cry thinking about how scared the kid was...no one helped, and the police disregarded the witnesses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc&feature=related
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
Sounds like Voluntary Manslaughter. If the Feds were to "rightly" get involved, it would be with investigating the LEOs in charge. But since this is starting to get political they will get involved and more spin about gun restrictions and racial dividing will occur.

The issue is neither gun restrictions nor racial dividing per se, although the latter is certainly involved. If the races of shooter and shootee were reversed, would there still be no prosecution? Nonetheless, that's only part of the issue.

The Civil Rights Act has enabled prosecutions and civil actions for homocides and violence that could not have taken place under state laws. When an American is deprived of a basic right (i.e. life) because of conflicting state laws, the federal government has a legitimate federal interest, according to the 14th Amendment.

Also, this does not appear to be manslaughter, although I could see a jury reaching that conclusion. To me, Zimmerman's actions demonstrated malice aforethought, which differentiates manslaughter from murder.

One other comment: One of the particularly bizarre things about the Florida law concerns its burden of proof in a civil suit. Normally, the plaintiff's burden is a perponderance of the evidence. By making the criminal case control the civil case, it transforms the plaintiff's burden to one of beyond a reasonable doubt.

John
WBraun

climber
Mar 23, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Geraldo Rivera blames hoodie for Trayvon's death on Fox.

Don't be wearin gangsta clothing he's implying ......
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
local news is reporting the following:

zimmerman's face was bloodied

the screaming on the 911 call is zimmerman

witness who called 911 told police on the scene that he saw "a man in white" on top of and punching "a man in red": martin was wearing white, zimmerman was wearing red

Gene

climber
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
Bookworm,

Links? Sources? Thanks.

g

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
If Zimmerman IS in fact proven that it was self defense, the whole race on race issue is just gonna do a backflip and turn around onto those making a big deal of it...

And Al Sharpton will most likely go home.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?

The irony is this statement is just too much.

Premise: we need to be civil to one another. Exception: But, if we're not, the person asking for civility has the right to shoot and kill the person who allegedly acting uncivil.

That'll teach you to act civil.

This law is proof that the patients are running asylum. Need further proof? Bookworm thinks it's a good law.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
I suspect that in the old days when overtly carrying a deadly weapon was deemed acceptable that people actually were a bit more civil as the consequences for not doing so could be immediate and severe.

We have become a defiant rude self-righteous culture.
Urizen

Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
Thanks, Ron. I've been both puzzled and amused over the years by old novels (like those by Walter Scott), full of guys swaggering around armed to the teeth and yet careful to address each other so formally as, "Gentlemen," "Brave knights," or "Cavaliers." You explained it in one sentence.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
Seems like one eyewitness statementsupports Zimmerman's position and the other one's writen statement does as well.




Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt.

That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old Austin stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

"I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' "

It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground.

The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said.

"When I heard the shot, the screaming stopped," he said.

He then rushed inside and told his sister to call police.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315_1_robert-zimmerman-letter-unarmed-black-teenager

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
There are some parallels to the Tawana Brawley case in the political mob response going on here.
I would say that that example is a poor comparison. Tawana Brawley claimed to be a victim of violence from white supremicists (sp?) to explain her failure to return home by curfew. She inflicted some minor injuries on herself to support her story.

The victim here is DEAD. Moreover, that person may not see any justice given a poorly thought out, poorly drafted law that was heavily supported by a very powerful special interest group and which appears to create a presumption that the person perpetrating the violence was within his or her rights to do so.

The only comparison between the two scenarios I see is that people are proactively rallying around the person they most identify with.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Lets assume they really did have some sort of fight, we still don't know.

One had a gun and other did not.

Why would the one with a gun "fear for his life", as the law apparently requires to act?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
That's an interesting way to look at it DMT.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
Changing nothing about the original event, except reversing the races of the two individuals, and this whole thing would be on no one's radar.
I'm not sure why you would make that statement since I don't believe it's reasonable that anyone would subscribe to that view.

If an armed loser (allegedly) stalked and killed an unarmed individual and was not arrested given a new, controversial law, there would most certainly be a firestorm over the event. Imagine that the stalker were a down on his luck African American and the victim were a blonded headed teenager from a good family. You honestly don't believe that scenario would register on any kind of current events radar?

Edit: BTW, I don't disagree with the view that there are people who will mine such events for political gain, sadly, but don't be naive enough to believe that it will be limited to liberals and African-Americans.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
the kid was getting stalked, he was trying to run away and hide. that is all pretty darn clear from the texts from his phone. Zimmerman caugt up to him and they had a fight that zimmerman instigated by chaseing the kid. Fight does not go zimmermans way so the pussy pulls a gun and kills the kid. Zimmerman still instigated the whole situation.

If you carry heat you have an obligation to stay out of troubble because ANY physical confrontation you find yourself in is deadly simply because you have that gun on your person. Any physical fight that you do not finish in a knockout quickly will most likly end up being a struggle for your gun if the fight goes to ground. That puts the responsibility to stay out of fights on the CWP carrier. That is what I was taught in the armed guard Courrier class that I took.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that the guy's name is Zimmerman?
I mean, WTF?
The guy is hispanic. You could even say race is not an issue because he is swarthy skinned, BUT THEN HE GOES AND SAYS "COONS" AND HAS THE NAME ZIMMERMAN.

Crazy world.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
Well crafted caveat to keep me from calling you on your BS.


But damned if I won't fight for your right to be wacky as long as you still help people.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Zimmerman?

Yeah even Bob Dylan didn't like the name. This guy shoulda changed it before he went out gunning for coons.

This reminds me of all those "sports" out there who with a pack of dogs, several guns, a tracker and no balls go out and slaughter the innocent aninals walking the earth and grin about it, like they're some way macho dudes.

If Z-man had any fortitude he'd a put down his gat and had a fist fight with the kid. Likewise, those other guys. Why don't they arm up with a knife and go out fight a fair fight with a mountain lion.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
And f*#k guns and this idiotic gun culture..
You need a gun you are a scared pussy..
A real man will still take it away from you and shove it up your a*# anyway...
Maybe that is why ya all need more than one...
But it will never be enough if you are a scared little bitch like this killer.

This is where you lose me, and make me believe you are most likely mentally handicap in some way shape or form.

Who's the real man who's going to take my gun from me? The guy who is breaking into my house?



The "I don't have a gun because i'm not a pussy" scenario.
So I hear a person come up my stairs, okay. Then I hear them break my window. Okay. Then they come in and kill me. Okay.



The "I don't have a gun but holy sh*t i'm scared, I'm gonna tell him I do" scenario.
So I hear a person come up my stairs, okay. Then I hear them break my window. Okay "I GOT A GUN AND I'm NUH-NUH-NOT AFRAID TO USE IT!". He pulls out his gun. They come in and kill me. Okay.

The "I'm a pussy because I own a firearm to protect myself and my property" scenario.
So I hear a person come up my stairs, okay. Then I hear them break m window. Okay *grabs gun and posts behind wall, waits for them to get into a position where they CAN'T draw a gun without me shooting first*, Announces I have a gun and to freeze.

Well, from here, it's in the person breaking into my hands. If he's not a pussy, he's gonna get arrested. If he is a pussy, he's gonna get shot.


Yeah, I guess those pussy gun owners are pussies...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Ron,

His father is white, mother Peruvian.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
+1 for Reiley.
I was standing in line once to get my Hunting licence. This fat slob repuglican NRA wanker gleefully proclaims to his fat kid. " the killing starts tomorrow"

Totally disgusted me.. No honor or respect for the deer giving its life to feed his family just a need to make up for his small penis by killing whatever he can. Pathetic.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
I thought the incident at hand here occurred out on the street not in Z-man's house.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
I was standing in line once to get my Hunting licence. This fat slob repuglican NRA wanker gleefully proclaims to his fat kid. " the killing starts tomorrow"

Totally disgusted me.. No honor or respect for the deer giving its life to feed his family just a need to make up for his small penis by killing whatever he can. Pathetic.

He most likely shot the dear in the head, exclaimed "BOOM HEADSHOT!", packed up the deer, then went home and on the way ate McDonalds.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin?cid=PROD-redesign-right-next
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
I thought the incident at hand here occurred out on the street not in Z-man's house.

If this is referring to my post, I think Zimmerman should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for 1st Degree murder if it's proven it wasn't self defense.

If it is self defense, he should be charged with criminal negligence and obstruction of justice.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
There are lots of brave folks who travel in extreemly hairy circles unarmed. some make it and some don't but no questioning their cajones... Most of the folks who carry probobly do not need to. makes em feel safe or bad assed or whatever but they precieve a threat that is mostly imaginary. Some who carry do have legit reasons. The most legit reason you can find is if you are involved in any kind of domestic issues. You can guard money your whole life and never need a gun but spend 1 day protecting a woman who has just left a bad relationship and you better be ready to roll!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
You can guard money your whole life and never need a gun but spend 1 day protecting a woman who has just left a bad relationship and you better be ready to roll!

Wouldn't that make you a paranoid pussy in Riley's eyes? Carrying a gun to stop a man from beating up or killing a woman.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Pretty sure wht Riley is getting at is that a large percentage of the gun toteing crowd are makeing up for personal issues by empowering themselfs with guns. In short, they are cowards. Simeler to those who drill their way up climbs that braver men hike in their approach shoes.

There are legit reasons to carry and protecting domestic abuse victims is certainally one of them. It is best to wear a uniform as well as pack heat when doing that kind of work. The uniform helps keep the ex from thinking you are the new BF.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/nbc-obtains-george-zimmerman-voice-mail-28712026.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
If a gun is involved it is always, always bad!
Escalation, anger, wounds, death....

And how is it different with sharp pointy objects or heavy blunt ones?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Michaelb or what ever your name is..

Are you that illiterate you can't tell the difference between a d and a b?

Do you know your A,B,C's? The difference between left and right?


With your story, it's really hard to understand what the hell you're talking about. It just seems like a bunch of rambling back and forth between guns being okay and bad. Make up your mind, or speak literate.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Dude, when you go to post you do not see the previous page so unless you copy and paste the persons name from up thread it is easy to mispell it.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
Excuses for everything here huh?

He's black.
He's white.
He's 100 lbs heavier.
He's 6'2 football player.
He had a gun.
He attacked first.
That's him screaming.
His face is bleeding.

Was anyone there on this website to clear the facts up? Stop jumping to conclusions.

Regardless - There is a dead guy, and the guy who killed him is free, and that set's a lot of people off.

Zimmerman should have NOT followed him as closely to cause suspicion by the "perp" aka Martin.

He should have listened to the police when they said to stop following. With that alone he should be charged with Obstruction of Justice.

People are going to play the race card, there is NOTHING you can do about it. It sucks. It happens. Who knows if it is what drove Zimmerman to judge Martin, most likely given the phone recordings and his heightened sense of paranoia from "them" and "F*cking c...ns." Who really knows?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
Wouldn't expect anything else from repuglicans ;)
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
ahh, check out my post history, no lurker and not a liberal. I am a red neck gun owner who had to split from the repuglicans when they lost their minds and turned into a bumch of frothing at the mouth mean spirited lunatics with newt at the helm. You guys lost me back when newt went after Clinton for haveing an affair while newt was haveing an affair.... decided that voteing single issue (Gun rights) was insane and I had to look at the whole picture.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
Ron,

His father is white, mother Peruvian.

So that means Zimmerman's hispanic, right?
I mean, Obama's black, no?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
Zimmerman should have NOT followed him as closely to cause suspicion by the "perp" aka Martin.

It's been said before, but bears repeating, you are insane.


Martin "perpetrated" the crimes of being black and wearing a hoodie, while some punk tracked and shot him, because he was too much a wimp to do anything else. GFY mikeb.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:43am PT
Geraldo Rivera blames hoodie for Trayvon's death on Fox.

Don't be wearin gangsta clothing he's implying ......

Edit: Joseph and Mary picture keeps disappearing.
Sacrilege?

F*ck Geraldo. F*ck all those folks who are trying to blame the kid.

My wife teaches at a very expensive to attend Catholic High School and everybody wears a hoodie. Mary and Joseph wore 'em. Bob Dylan wears a hoodie, I wear one, and I bet alot of folks who visit this website wear one. F*ck Geraldo, he should know better. F*ckin' Al Capone wore one and if Geraldo would have found him back in Chicago would he have shot him too.

Edit 2:

I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin's death as much as George Zimmerman was


What the f*ck kind of convoluted reasoning is this?

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 06:03am PT
Thanks Jim and Reily.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that ocasionaly someone comes along who realy needs a good arse whooping. Sometimes if they get that arse whooping they turn into a better person. Not always but often it works. One of lifes great lessons.
Zimmerman seems like one of those guys. He stalks the kid, chases him causeing a confrontation that perhaps he was loseing. Instead of taking his whooping like a man and learning from it he wimps out and shoots the kid. Pathetic case of bully cowardice. It is just as pathetic and cowardly that some of the hard core Repuglicans try to defend his behavior.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 24, 2012 - 11:14am PT
He spots a victim, stalks that victim and kills him then claimes he was afraid for his life? WTF


Instead of taking his whooping like a man and learning from it he wimps out and shoots the kid.


I'll bet there's at least one more twist to the story before it's over.




monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 24, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
Ron, even the 'stand your ground' authors say the law does not apply here. Stalking someone and creating a confrontation is not 'standing your ground'.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
Why did the po'lice not arrest Z-man? The knews mentioned him possibly being an informant or having some kinda cozy deal going on. Did anyone check his house for a meth lab?

You read it here:

http://themoxiesophic.com/2012/03/16/is-george-zimmerman-a-police-informant/
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
Mar 24, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
zBrown,

That is what I was alluding to back a few pages on this thread when I commented something to the effect that the PD(PoPo's)were negligent and should be held accountable in regards to their lack of action!

The dude is an out and out racist. He steriotyped the youth and had a cold blooded death wish coursing through his mind and viens. "They always get away...F*#kin Coons!" He made a decision at that point, and followed through with it. He became the judge, jury and executioner point blank.

And the F'n cops...how pathetic!!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Ron. people are up in arms about a lot more than one case. It took this caSE to spotlight the flaws in the law but there have been many bad shootings that have walked due to the law. I have absolutly no problem with a stand your ground law. heck i think you should be allowed to fire and manuver, outflank the perp and take em down fron behind provideing they are armed and and have started a gunfight. i feel very strongly however that you should NOT be allowed to shoot anyone simply because you are afraid of them.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
I feel this law better demonstrates that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. They had a reasonable idea in that I can not run 2495fps therefor I should be able to shoot the perp with the AK rather than try to run away from him. They ended up with a law that allows you to kill unarmed people simply because you are afraid of them.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 25, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
this guy has more capacity to judge life threats than punk Z-man. Shouldn't he be licensed to kill too?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
Thats it, I am never going on a climbing trip to Florida ever again. God I am going to miss those walls!
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
The Florida law flies in the face of a fundamental principle of law enforcement and public safety. Flight is the option that experts recommend in most situations, as it is less likely to result in serious injury or death, as opposed to standing and fighting.

If you are in your home and feel threatened, you can rightfully use your gun to defend yourself, but what if the thief has a more powerful gun, a flak vest and is better trained at close range shooting than you?

You are still better off running out the back door and letting the guy take what he wants. If you want to play Rambo, go ahead, but you are risking your precious life for some silly property of some sort.

Zimmerman was evidently given proper advice by law enforcement, but failed to follow it, and the results were a tragic loss of life.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
It ain't the place that is weird it is the people.

I love beaches, reefs, sailing, canoeing, swamps, airboats, rum drinks, and hot women in bikinis.
(definitely not in that order)

The climbing potential is pretty non-existent but if you need to heal a tendon sheath anyway,..
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
Dr. F,

you refer to a ban on assault rifles.

Could you please define "assault rifle", and tell me specifically what "ban" you are referring to?





(I said "please")
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 26, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
zimmerman's friend--a black man--interviewed on fox:

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/03/26/video-zimmerman-friend-calls-for-patience-in-investigation/
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Here's another relevant piece from the NY Times that some of you may have missed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/opinion/floridas-disastrous-self-defense-law.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share

It's written by the former Miami chief of police who, along with many other chief of police in Florida, signed a letter opposing the passage of Stand Your Ground when the law was discussed in legislature. It's nice that the guns nuts see fit to ignore the advice of those persons actually in charge of our public safety. I guess they will argue that the police are just another sign of unnecessary big government.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 26, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
I wonder how different this story would be treated by the media if the kid had killed Zimmerman. After all, the kid was being followed, that can feel pretty threatening.

The fact that Zimmerman was following the kid, despite the pleadings of the 911 dispatcher, makes it difficult to claim he was standing his ground.


Here is an odd twist to this story- http://www.ajc.com/news/new-black-panthers-offer-1398575.html
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 26, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
Ok people pay attention here is the case in a nut shell for you arm chair lawyers.

Zimmerman was following the kid. Told to stop following by 911 dispatch. Continued to follow the kid.

He was not standing his ground he was provoking the kid to act and when he did he shot and killed him.

Zimmerman is going to prison and he will get a plea deal but he will be going to prison and this stand your ground law will be repealed.

If Zimmerman is going to prison, that must mean that the the "stand your ground law" doesn't immunize him from prosecution.
So what's the problem with the law?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
If Zimmerman is going to prison, that must mean that the the "stand your ground law" doesn't immunize him from prosecution.
So what's the problem with the law?

My problem with the law (as opposed to the problem with the law) is that it creates a defense based on a state of mind, and the cases construing it appear to require the prosecution to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant lacked that state of mind. It then goes on to insulate the defendant from liability in tort under state law if the defendant is found innocent.

This effectively prevents any objective punishment for, or review or compensation from, dangerous and devastating actions, and promotes neither justice nor safety.

John
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
Different view of what may have happened, says the kid attacked him. I would like to see a PD of the 2 of them. Giant football player vs. 98lb geek or what are we looking at. What if Zimmerman was a female ?

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html

Not to worry the good reverand Sharpton is on hand to smooth things out.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Different view of what may have happened, says the kid attacked him. I would like to see a PD of the 2 of them. Giant football player vs. 98lb geek or what are we looking at. What if Zimmerman was a female ?

Most people would want to attack a person that is stalking them with a gun. The kid may have acted in self-defense when confronted by an unknown person with a gun who had no business even talking to him that night. Did Zimmerman identify himself and his intentions or just start acting like he was the criminal?

They both were scared for their lives at some point during all of this but only one of them went out that night with a gun with the intention of shooting someone, should the need arise. The other just wanted to get home with his candy.

This is like hiding in the closet with a gun and waiting each night until your wife finally has a lover over to visit. It would clearly be a crime of passion because you had no way of knowing that your wife's lover would show up that night.

Dave
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 26, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Here is a collection of 911 calls related to this incident. I'll try to embed the video but I'm not familiar with this bulletin board format.


[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHMRwmGlKs8]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHMRwmGlKs8&feature=related


Sorry, I can't seem to get this vid to embed. But the link is there for anyone interested. Some of it gets pretty emotional.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 26, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
I would be having a couple drinks with my friends in the Black Panther Party

I'm thinking this scene is kind of like the painting of dogs playing poker.

then I would borrow an arsenal.

LOL
"Excuse me sir, but could I borrow your weapons and ammo to go storm a police station?"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 26, 2012 - 09:49pm PT


michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 26, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
This guy f*#ked up real, real bad by stalking and killing this kid.
This is a moron of legendary scale.
Being a paranoid, pathetic, lunatic, loser is no excuse for murder.

They need to do a psyche evaluation on Zimmerman..

How many times has he called the police?
Any psychiatrist could tell you the tone of his voice and how paranoid he sounded talking about the kid, isn't a normal paranoia. He's probably got some kind of Schizophrenia or something...
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 26, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
Manzanita man: Agreed about waiting for all the info on this particular case. I do think however that it's a poorly constructed law.

One thing that I have read that is not in congruence with your post is that there is no registered Neighborhood watch group in that neighborhood. Zimmerman was self-appointed watchman on an imaginary force. Do you have sources where it is stated there was one? Also, it is my understanding that Neighborhood Watch Groups (official ones) are prohibited from carrying guns. Again this points to his imaginary status on an imaginary group.

Not saying you are wrong. Just curious where you got your info. I'm curious to read it.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:36am PT
I'm not a great speculator. I won't speculate about an acquittal because I'm not at all certain there will be an arrest at all. Or a trial.

Or maybe you mean the grand jury no-bills this? Who knows what will happen in terms of riots if that happens. I personally don't think it'll have squat to do with the presidential election personally.

Whatever happens, Zimmerman's life is forever changed. Not sure if he'll be found to scare someone else who pops him or what. But he clearly will have to go the way of Casey Anthony - live very quietly. :/
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:10am PT
Fact; the kid was stoned...he was buying skittles and a slurpy.
He had been suspended from school for having pot in his back pack.
Fact; he had the "noids" and attacked Zimmerman

Come on, stop so much speculating. Wait for all the details

Who the hell wears a hoodie in FL anyways ? I just got back from hunting in SE Texas where it was hot & humid....hoodie weather...NOT. If you're wearing a hoodie you're hiding.

My neighborhood watch has PD from various breakins listed as "black male, 20-35 yrs". The latest hit & run on a parked car at 2am "ealy model Cadillac, BM, hoodie" Seems to be the outfit of choice for pot smokin, residential burglary hit & run thugs. I know my neighborhood, I walk my dog a mile or 2 pretty much every day. If somethings out of place I'll stop and observe but I'm not attacking anybody. But if they come at me and say WTF you looking at ? It's on.

My car got broken into in my driveway between 12am & 4am. I had just come home from the range about 11;45pm and left for work with my shotgun at 4am to go hunting after work. Lucky bastards....I'd have solved the car break in problem. Neighbors trail camera....male in a hoodie(no race, no face).
California will soon step up & ban hoodies. My neighborhood will be safer.

So the Black Panthers offered $10K for Zimmerman ?? There was an ad here for a lost pet for that much. Are they afraid it's going to get garnished or something ? What a token. Isn't that illegal ??

Riots ? You'd better believe it. Who will be the target ? Or will it be an excuse to loot as it was in South Central LA(yes, I was there).
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:39am PT
"Most people would want to attack a person that is stalking them with a gun"


huh? i'm not going to attack a person with a gun; i'm going to try to escape or create a disturbance to bring out witnesses

besides, there is no indication that martin knew zimmerman was armed; if z did have his gun drawn, it makes no sense that he would have allowed martin to attack


"Maybe you have to be from another country to really see how ridiculous law enforcement in the USA is in response to a murdered 17 year old black kid."

no, what's ridiculous is the presumption of guilt, which rejects the very foundation of our justice system; or maybe it's just your ignorance of the meaning of "murder", which has a specific definition and requires far more evidence than anyone on this site is privy to

also ridiculous is the presumption of racism just because the victim was a "17 year old black kid"; what if the races were reversed? would you assume the black shooter was racist for killing an hispanic man?

final ridiculous is the knee-jerk accusations of a conspiracy; your presumption of z's racism suggests that the police officers on the scene, the ems and coroner's personnel on the scene, and the da all conspired to cover up an obvious case of a hate crime--who's paranoid, now?

"a paranoid, pathetic, lunatic, loser"

an assessment based on a public record of such behavior? your inside information after speaking with z's friends and relatives or z himself? your years of investigative police work or psychological research?

or maybe you were subliminally influenced by the reflection in your computer screen


interesting that white people did not threaten violence when oj was acquitted or that he was never threatened after he was free and walking around living the high life...and that was AFTER all the evidence was released
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Mar 27, 2012 - 10:32am PT
The whole thrust of this thread pisses me off...

It's called a "rush to judgement" without having ALL of the details in hand. It's a strictly emotional response, and I'm all for the courts dealing with it, and not a mob rush for a lynching.

None of us KNOW the deatils, but are responding to MSM "senstionalism."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:20am PT
Duke Lacrose Team all over again.
KaiPL

Mountain climber
Boulder, Colorado
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
Florida "stand your ground" law:

3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

This seems pretty reasonable to me.

If you reasonably believe that you are in danger of great bodily harm or death, why would you not have the right to defend yourself?


As for the the Treyvon Martin case: If Zimmerman's account is true (and apparently witnesses and the physical evidence support his account) and Martin attacked him and Zimmerman was getting pummeled and having his head smacked against the pavement, it seems like Zimmerman was in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. Retreat doesn't seem to be an option in this circumstance, so "stand your ground" isn't applicable.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
tgt pictures of the young man looks just like my kid at those ages. The only difference is mine is white.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
California will soon step up & ban hoodies. My neighborhood will be safer.
No truer words were ever spoken. "People don't commit crimes; hoodies do".

That clinched it for me. He was wearing a hoody. Guilty as charged. No need to dispense capital punishment either since he's already dead. What an efficient system.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
we're "idiots" because we admit we don't have all the evidence and can't make a judgment...and because we believe the vast majority of white people--including cops--are NOT racist...and we're willing to believe that a man with black friends publicly defending him might, actually, be a decent man who put himself (that much i'll concede) in a terrible situation with a tragic outcome


you know, i actually prefer being an "idiot"
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
And it was done by a guy who in 2005 had an assault charge on a police officer and a domestic violence charge in 2007.

So what? You think that is as serious as being suspended from school for having an empty baggie? You libs have no sense of proportion!
KaiPL

Mountain climber
Boulder, Colorado
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
It's funny that people assume that the police haven't been doing anything.

"Nothing has been done by the local police."

It's true that the police didn't immediately arrest Zimmerman. However, that's not the same as doing nothing.

A murder investigation takes time. Typically longer than 48 hours. Did the local police say that the case was closed? Did they say that they didn't plan on investigating? Not that I've heard or read.

People complain about the lack of "justice" because Zimmerman wasn't immediately thrown in jail. It's becoming more and more clear that the evidence that the police had access to doesn't warrant keeping Zimmerman in jail during the investigation.

Ultimately, if the evidence collected by the investigation is sufficient, it will go to a grand jury, who will decide whether or not criminal charges are warranted. That's how our justice system works, even though Al Sharpton, the Black Panthers, Sinead O'Conner and other luminaries want to take a shortcut to "justice" and throw Zimmerman in jail without a trial (or just kill him.)



Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
NOTHING had been done for decades now. Between the hamstringing of law enforcement by politicians and lawyers making a joke out of the system nothing is the norm,
Let me understand you correctly, you're saying that the penal code, the executive branch (police, sheriffs, etc.) and the criminal courts system have been sitting idly by doing absolutely nothing for 30 yrs.? How do you explain our overcrowded prisons? How has law enforcement been hamstrung? How have lawyers been making a joke out of the system?

BTW, I don't actually expect you to provide a reasonable response to any of my questions. I'm writing more to let you know that the typical redneck 'they're taking over' crap doesn't really fly.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
And this relates to Zimmerman/Martin how?
cleo

Social climber
the canyon below the Ditch!!!!
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
Nice TGT. Your photo is a fake.

http://twitchy.com/2012/03/25/why-teamdueprocess-is-important-for-justice/
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
The Tampa Bay Times takes the approach we have seen adopted by the Times -
there is no mention of Zimmerman's bloody nose or cut to the back of his
head. Lots of rumination about how children can avoid "looking suspicious",
but no advice along the lines of "don't punch strangers in the nose".

----------------------------


(An account of the shooting with street maps and background of the players)

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/




Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Denny remeber that poor guy?

Do you remember Reginald Denny? Do you? Do you recall how he dealt with what happened?

Reginald Denny is one hell of a good man, and I doubt very much he'd appreciate his name being used against Martin.

cc:
but no advice along the lines of "don't punch strangers in the nose".

Classic. I suppose you wouldn't fight back, you'd have been on your knees kissing Zimmerman's feet, crying and pleading for him not to plug you.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
Fair enough, Ron.

BTW, yes, riots are stupid.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Did those guys burn their neighbors houses when they left to join???

Yes they did. They did not treat the conservatives of that day, who supported the king, very kindly. Read about it, it's very interesting stuff.

edit: In fairness to the patriots, the conservatives did want to hang them.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
It is absolutely stunning how the modern day conservative is rushing to defend Zimmerman. A true conservative would have no sympathy for a wannabe cop who stalks a kid, causes a confrontation, loses a fist fight and kills the kid.....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 27, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
I just hate how everyone is jumping to conclusions based on whatever side of the plane you like to sit on.

Left wing sees Zimmerman as a murderer.
Right wing sees Zimmerman as someone defending themselves.

Le' sigh, then you get the whole race issue bullsh*t.
He obviously profiled everyone who was black. Pretty racist.
Don't make it an issue about "oh the kid was black, no justice will be served because the shooter was white."
How about the issue of some kid is dead, and there isn't enough evidence to prove if it was self defense or not?

Be angry at the investigators..

The bruises on Zimmerman's face should be matched to the fists at the end of Martin's arms. Not hard at all, Riley i'm sure you've seen plenty of domestic assaults if you work in a hospital. They probably take pictures of those bruises real fast...

The investigators are just sitting on their d*cks waiting for something new to happen.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
M. very short sighted assesment there. The lead investigator wanted manslaughter. FL law makes it very easy to kill without penalty so perp walks. There is ample evidence suggesting zimmerman stalked trevon. there is little doubt that zimmerman was on the loseing end of a fist fight.. just think what a bad ass I could have been in 7th grade if VT had a law like that and I could have shot every kid that beat me in a fist fight........
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 27, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
That's exactly how I see it....

He stalked him.
Wanted to get into an altercation...
Sh*t came out sideways and he landed on his a** with some kid trying to defend himself.
Martin see's Zimmerman pull a gun.
Martin screams.
Zimmerman has self defense case....
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
The Daily Caller obtains Trayvon Martin’s tweets.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86809463/Trayvon-s-Tweets-the-Daily-Caller
















monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
Why don't you have him selling drugs at the 7/11?

Smart CC, you removed your comment about him being out smoking pot, cuz we know pot smokers are such a threat.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Mono - Remind us all why he was on a 10 day school suspension?

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Why did you remove your comment?
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Mono - troll
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
I think we can all agree there was a physical confrontation. In this case, the winner gets to make the claims about how it started.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
Mono - although his eyes are quite bloodshot is his twitter pic. Think its
because he'd been studying a lot?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Yes CC, he was a nasty kid in a hoodie, deserving to be stalked and killed by a guy 100 lbs heavier in fear of his life.
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
Zimmerman has a history of being aggressive with those he doesn't see eye to eye with...






Sanford police released a log of Zimmerman's dozens of calls to police dating back to 2004, which show a pattern of his reporting suspicious people and minor nuisances. Three other reports released by the county sheriff show Zimmerman was willing to follow wrong-doers.

In September 2003, Zimmerman called police to complain of a fellow motorist spitting on him. He followed the man until police arrived.

But the motorist, Daniel Osmun, told police that Zimmerman was tailgating and he spit his gum out the window "out of frustration" with the young man's erratic driving.

As they pulled up next to each other, the two exchanged words and "Mr. Osmun also said at one point, he thought Mr. Zimmerman was going to attack him," according to a police report. Prosecutors were contacted but no charges were ever filed against either, according to state records.

In October 2003, Zimmerman again called police as he followed a man who had apparently stolen two combination DVD/TV players from a supermarket. The suspected thief was arrested.

Then in October 2007, Zimmerman called police to report that the tires of his Dodge Durango were slashed and he suspected his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend. However, he had no proof the man, Tim Hudik, was behind the vandalism.

Hudik, however, told police that he never touched the truck - and that he so was aggravated by text message exchanges with Zimmerman that he was mulling a restraining order against Zimmerman. None was filed, according to Seminole County records.

Hudik hung up on a Miami Herald reporter Tuesday.

Zimmerman was arrested in a scuffle with an undercover officer in 2005, but the charges were dropped when he entered a pre-trial diversion program that allowed him to have a clean record.

When he applied for the citizen's police academy, Zimmerman insisted he did not know the man he scuffled with was a cop.

"I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regaurd (sic) as I hope to one day become one," he wrote in his application. "I would never have touched a police officer."

©2012 The Miami Herald




...good thing for Daniel Osmun that the police heard HIS side, as that is my best friend's (from college) brother in Sanford, and losing him for nothing would be plain wrong.




Sucking Fyko is what Zimmerman is
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-elderly-man-shoots-burglar-in-englewood-both-charged-20120326,0,3175723.story
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
"Stand Your Ground Law"
The results are entirely predictable.

WTF is the idea of allowing (encouraging) people outside the authorized law enforcement chain of command to shoot unarmed citizens upon fear of violence? Where is the training? NADA. Where is the chain of responsibility? NADA.

And this BS about Trayvon having been in trouble for marijuana?
One of the most decent, non-violent young men I know has been busted for dope.
BFD.

I don't particularly hold Zimmerman at fault. Sure he's guilty of manslaughter at least, but he was setup by the community's mass hysteria.

Riley
I don't think I have ever known anyone like Zimmerman.
You need to get out and expand your social life. There are plenty of them.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
This is the sort of loutish,hysteria-driven, mean-spirited mob mentality that has.....
led to the creation of this non-sensical and dangerous law.

hey. How about all the climbers I know who wear hoodies? How 'bout the Patagucci hoodie sweaters and guide jackets?
How 'bout the climbers who've had a MJ run-in with the law and wear hoodies on a dark night?

be careful out there, could be a target on your back.

The ONLY facts we know are that Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Zimmerman was armed. Trayvon wasn't. Trayvon had not committed any crime that night. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. And the DA did diddley squat of an investigation.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
Hoodies first became popular when it got cold.
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:07am PT
Have you ever been followed ?

Did you attack your follower ?



'
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:07am PT
The ONLY facts we know are that Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Zimmerman was armed. Trayvon wasn't. Trayvon had not committed any crime that night. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. And the DA did diddley squat of an investigation.

We don't know if Trayvon committed any crime, but it doesn't matter. The other facts ARE what we know and much of what you need to know to know something went wrong.

What really made this story blow up and take racial overtones was not the incident itself, but the police investigation of it.

The police sent out a narcotics detective, not a homicide detective.
The police dept. had complaints of racial bias in the past.
The police didn't test the shooter for drugs/alcohol but they tested the dead person
The police did a poor job interviewing witnesses.
The police didn't check Trayvon's cell phone records and talk to his girlfriend who was on the phone when the incident was happening.

The police still haven't admitted they messed up not arresting Zimmerman. They said they had no reason to doubt his claims of self defense, but the simple fact that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon means it was not a stand your ground situation. If we take Zimmerman at his word that Trayvon attacked him you still have Zimmerman pursuing Trayvon causing the confrontation. The fact that the police STILL can't admit this shows how screwed up that department is.

American justice, like American democracy might be among the best in the world, but it's still ripe for abuse and screw up. And injustice DOES often affect some people more than others and if you can't see that you are a weak, self centered person.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:37am PT
we don't know that z "pursued" martin; we know he FOLLOWED, which is perfectly reasonable for neighborhood watch; we don't know he was "ordered" to stop following but simply told "we don't need you" to follow

we know z was bloodied on his face and head

we know z claimed he was attacked, which was, at least partially, confirmed by a witness who called 911 and reported "man in white" (martin was 6'2" and wearing white) on top of and beating "man in red" (z was wearing red)

we know z is hispanic; we know z tutors black children even after funding for the program was discontinuted; we know z has black friends defending his character--one of them publicly the other without showing his face because he fears for his safety

we know z has been arrested and we know martin was suspended from school for drugs; meaning, we know nobody's record is perfect

we know the black panthers have put out a "bounty" for a man who is not a fugitive and has not even been charged with a crime; we know spike lee tweeted a private citizen's phone number that turned out to be the wrong number and now an elderly couple is being harrassed and is afraid for their safety

we know public officials are making accusations of "murder" and systemic racism, further enflaming a terrible situation

we know sometimes the system fails but most of the time it doesn't

we know nobody outside out of sanford, fl, would be having this conversation if martin wasn't black or z wasn't not black

we know that 90% of black murder victims are murdered by black assailants, and we know that nobody wants to address that issue

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:51am PT
oh, we also know zimmerman is a registered DEMOCRAT!!!



so, by the logic displayed on this thread, we can immediately assume that all democrats are violent, racist, ignorant, pathetic, psychotic, etc.


which, of course, we already knew
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 10:31am PT
validation of goldberg's "liberalism fascism":

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-27/news/os-trayvon-martin-wrong-zimmerman-20120327_1_tweets-heart-condition-twitter


hey, riley, while you're hangin' with the nbp's (assuming they let a "cracker" like you in their company) maybe you can have a few laughs about this elderly couple being driven out of their home
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
This article, allegedly leaked from the police, says Martin approached Zim as he walked away, saying "what's your problem?" "you got one now" and punched him. Them got on top and pounded his head on the ground while Zim yelled for help. Witness backs the latter half that Matin was on top & Zim calling for help.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Martin suspended 3x from school, not an empty baggy, still had some pot AND a pipe. Relevant...not really.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
I just love how they keep using Martin's pic from when he was like 12. All smiles. Not the ones of him in baggy clothes flipping off the camera.

edit: BREAKING NEWS

(CNN) -- The parents of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teen killed by a Hispanic man who claims self-defense, said Wednesday that they have faith in authorities investigating the case.

Zimmerman is now "Hispanic".

F*ck my life.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
The problem is that the Right wing in this country is part of a cult that gets all its information from the same sources and thinks the same way.


I'm trying to think of the best way to compare it to something....

I guess...

If your Black, you'll most likely see this as a hate crime, and another black kid killed after being profiled, and no justice.


Right wing, will most likely see it as a self defense, of an attack by a black kid who has been suspended from school, and posts stuff on twitter that their conservative celibate sons and daughters would never post on twitter, and that this should clearly be a clear cut case of self defense based on the "Stand your Ground" Law.


Riley, let's be friends. There's a lot more room in the middle. :)
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
I think he always was.
He certainly never looked white.
Who was saying he was white?

About every news agency when this whole thing went out of control.

Zimmerman seriously, from the sound of it, has some sort of superiority complex. Given his past criminal history, it could of all been avoided if he didn't feel like he needed to intervene every time something happened.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
The Sanford Police selectively leaked irrelevant, negative information about Martin. The authorities told the Orlando Sentinel this morning that Trayvon was suspended from school for ten days “after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.” There is no evidence that Martin was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death, nor would prior possession of marijuana be a reason for killing him. It’s unclear what the relevance of the leak was, other than to smear Martin. [Orlando Sentinel]

The marijuana stuff is at least somewhat relevant. It's well known that using marijuana causes paranoia in at least some users. If Trayvon was under the influence of marijuana and was being followed by Zimmerman, he may have overreacted and attacked Zimmerman.

Moreover, possession of marijuana is a crime, and if Trayvon had recently been engaged in criminal activity, it's entirely possible that he had the mindset of criminals and those dealing with criminals--was he being followed by a drug dealer or user who wanted to steal his marijuana? An informant?
Who knows. But people involved in criminal activity likely have a different mindset when dealing with the public compared to people not involved in criminal activity, especially activity that is frequently linked to other crimes and violence (e.g., theft of drugs and money that drug dealers and users have, rip offs during drug deals).

Speculative? Absolutely. Highly relevant? Perhaps not.
But let's not pretend that Trayvon's history of marijuana-related suspension has no relevance to this story--it's all part of the mix of trying figure out what happened.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
The worst thing this kid can be accused of is confronting someone who was stalking him. Apparently, that is an idea foreign to our Republican apologist friends. They are so used to bending over and grabbing their ankles, they think it is the norm.

A scrawny kid had the balls to stand up to a bigger, and armed, thug and he's the one being smeared by the right wing. Classic.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
The marijuana stuff is at least somewhat relevant. It's well known that using marijuana causes paranoia in at least some users. If Trayvon was under the influence of marijuana and was being followed by Zimmerman, he may have overreacted and attacked Zimmerman.

That's hilarious on SO many levels!

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
we know that 90% of black murder victims are murdered by black assailants, and we know that nobody wants to address that issue

Holy crap, is this really true?

If so, the race-card players should take a moment to reflect on this...

While Zimmerman is very likely a kook with a gun who got in over his head,
the "kid" was most certainly knott an angel, despite what the pre-pubescent pic might
lead us to believe.

And it takes 2 to tango...

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
A scrawny kid had the balls to stand up to a bigger, and armed, thug and he's the one being smeared by the right wing. Classic.

Sadly, this is most likely the case. Unfortunately, one side is making it about race, while the other is trying to dig up trash on the kid to justify shooting him. It's f*cking bullsh*t.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
michaeld, this kid should be a hero to the right wing. Instead of waiting for somebody else to do it for him, he took action and stood up for himself. Then a corrupt and evil government screwed him over after he was dead.

In the meantime, there is the case of Trevor Dooley. Dooley, with a handgun tucked into his pants, left his house and crossed the street to a park to tell a kid he couldn't skateboard there. A father playing basketball with his daughter argued with him about that.

Dooley turned and started back to his house. The father went after him, and grabbed him. Dooley shot the father.

The two cases seem similar don't they? The instigator, who was armed, turned away, and then shot in self-defense when confronted.

Yet Dooley is on trial while Zimmerman is free. Isn't that curious? Especially since Dooley is black and the guy he shot is white.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Yes Hardman, that is the case: Most violent crime is intraracial.

It varies a little bit year to year, but in general, about 90% of blacks murdered were murdered by blacks. About 7-8% of blacks were murdered by a white.

For whites, about 85% were murdered by whites. And about 14% were murdered by whites.

(Differences come from 'unknown' or 'other' victims.)

Keep in mind that the FBI at the national level does not collect victim or offender Hispanic origin data (some states do). So, these number only refer to race (white, black, other in this case). Most Hispanics are white so most Hispanics are going to be found in the white category.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
A tragic encounter is when you hit a cow on your dirt bike.
Both sides are making it about race.


What happened is --- An adult seems to have stalk, confronted, & shot & killed a juvenile. & the police did nothing until pressured.


Something is way wrong period.


Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Both sides are making it about race.

-which is fućking bullshìt!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Agreed Jebus.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
There's something very unsavory about this form of argument. Like justifying rape in the case of short skirts or the like.

OK, two guys got into a beef, one of them is dead. And we don't have all the facts.

Better?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but all the (usual) assumptions make me dizzy.

Since we are making assumptions, I'll assume that Zimmerman called him a "coon" (as you can hear him say on the 911 tape). Or maybe the N-word? Then "the kid" starts beating the crap outta Zimmerman, and he shoots Martn.

Again, two to tango...

It does seem odd that Zimmerman is knott in jail. Can't wait to hear the whole story!
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
if this thread isnt proof positive of the media and their abilities to stir the poop

Ron, shouldn't some poop have been stirred here?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
deleted
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Can't wait to hear the whole story!

Agreed, Hardman, but we do have a lot of facts now, the 911 tapes most significantly. None of which make Zimmerman look good, IMO.

If it's OK to shoot someone because they had an empty baggie, I would never have survived HIGH school.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Gary,a certain amount Yes,,but NO MORE than the dead counted on the evening news last night.

Couldn't agree with you more, Ron.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
Agreed, Hardman, but we do have a lot of facts now, the 911 tapes most significantly. None of which make Zimmerman look good, IMO.

If he really said "fućking coons" on the 911 tape (and it certainly sounds like it), then there should be hell to pay, regardless of the circumstances of the shooting. It does sound like the wanna-be cop was looking for a fight, his bravery bolstered by the firearm.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
It's interesting to me how an initial discussion about the "Florida Stand Your Ground Law," about which we have virtually all available information, morphed into a Martin/Zimmerman discussion, about which we lack some (though, in my opinion, not a whole lot of) information.

Sure, there are people who will use any excuse, legitimate or otherwise, to stir things up. To me in this case, however, the facts we already know about the Zimmerman/Martin tragedy (I assume that no matter how you feel about this, any time an unarmed man is shot dead [and even some times when an armed on is] constitutes a tragedy) make a discussion of the wisdom of that law timely and rather important.

I guess I analyze it this way. If someone shoots another in self-defense, no [edit: United States] law of which I am aware authorizes prosecution. Florida's law differs from that norm because its interpretation lacks objectivity in determining self-defense.

The law itself requires a "reasonable" belief. That implies an objective standard. Unfortunately, as I understand it, the case law undermines that objectivity to the point where prosecution becomse difficult if the defendant can provide evidence of fear, even if a reasonable person would not so fear.

If I am correct, does such a law make for a safer society? That, to me, should constitute the policy debate. those who decry the press's playing of this in a manner of "Judgment first, then trial" (as the Queen of Hearts said in Through the Looking Glass) have, I think, a legitimate point, although I know of almost nowhere else where Zimmerman would still be free and uncharged. That doesn't apply, however, to a discussion of the Florida law. How many more Trayvon Martin's can we bury and maintain our souls?

John
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Agreed Hardman. We don't know a lot. And the media does not get details right frequently in cases like this.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
If he really said "fućking coons" on the 911 tape (and it certainly sounds like it), then there should be hell to pay, regardless of the circumstances of the shooting."

what if he didn't make any racist comment but really did kill martin for racial reasons? how would you prove that? would you argue that his volunteer tutoring of black children on the weekends was just a cover, to help in his defense when he just happened to find the perfect opportunity to kill an innocent black man in a scenario that he could plausibly argue self-defense, something he's been dreaming about his entire life? would you argue that his black friends who are defending his character were also part of his grand scheme to hide his racism? would you argue that these men are too naive to recognize a racist when they meet one or that they are victims of some deeply psychological self-loathing inspired by their racist society?

and what if he did make the comment? would that make him a racist? ever call a woman a 'bitch'? does that make you a misogynist? you say, 'regardless of the circumstances': what if martin did attack him? would the comment be a sure sign of racism? or fear? or anger? what if i come home to find a black man raping my wife and i call him a "coon" as i shoot him? am i guilty of a hate crime? can you prove, based only on that extraordinary moment, that i'm a racist?

consider: i murder a black man because...

1) i want to take his watch

2) i want to see what it's like to watch a man die

3) i want to prove i'm tough

4) i think it's fun

5) i felt dissed when he stepped on my toe

6) i was mugged by a black man and want revenge

7) i was hired to kill him

8) i hate black people

now, which is the worst? only one murder is given special designation by federal legislation and it's one that is virtually impossible to prove


when we have members of congress declaring this was a murder before a trial, before a grand jury, before any charges, and before the evidence has been made public; when we have an elderly couple forced to flee their home for their own safety just because somebody named george zimmerman once lived at that address and their address was tweeted TWICE by a celebrity with thousands of followers; when we have a racial organization offering a cash "bounty" for a man that hasn't been charged and is not a fugitive, we need to seriously step back and consider the possibility that this could turn into something far worse
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 28, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
The law itself requires a "reasonable" belief. That implies an objective standard. Unfortunately, as I understand it, the case law undermines that objectivity to the point where prosecution becomse difficult if the defendant can provide evidence of fear, even if a reasonable person would not so fear.

The word "reasonable" in the statute doesn't "imply" an objective standard, it is an objective standard.
Can you cite the case law (or explain the basis for your "understanding") that, if I understand you right, someone can be immunized from prosecution on the basis of an unreasonable fear?

If your understanding is right, then I would agree that the law --as interpreted by the courts-- has a major flaw, but that flaw isn't at all apparent from the text of the law.

(Some other parts of the law, such as the notion that it changes the burden of proof in civil suits, may indeed be FUBAR, but I don't seen any connection between that and your point above.)
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Quite certain that Obama was commenting that a child who looked a lot like what his son would have looked like was killed. I see this at work all the time. Guys on the construction site who have daughters have zero tolerance for raunchy humor directed twords young girls. Its a parent thing. You can turn it into a race thing if you want but INMOP the gut reaction was a parent thing.
Just have to say this again as it is just so blareingly obvious and disgusting.
The modern day conservative seems to foster a sh#t ton of small minded mean spirited weirdos. My dad was as Republican as you could get back in the day before it was spelled Repuglican. Decorated WW11 vet who took on Tiger tanks with a bazooka. I garentee you that if he was alive today that he would disown the current repuglican party and there is no way in hell that he would be sticking up for zimmerman. My dad was a man of integrity and compasion. Two qualitys almost completly lacking in the modern day conservative.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 28, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
The Florida special prosecutor investigating the Trayvon Martin shooting is bringing in independent voice analysis experts to go over the 911 tapes. Zimmerman said it was him screaming for help, if it's determined in was Martin, Zimmerman will be in deep sh#t. If it's Z unfortuneatly we probably won't learn much about what really happended but it will bolster his claim of self defense.

This case kind of strikes a chord with me. When I was in college a friend and I got the address of a rental house from an agent who told us we could go take a look. I guess we did look suspicious, we were there at dusk, in an empty van, looking in the windows with a flashlight. But it was an empty house.

A cop showed up, started questioning us, and a jackass, beer bellied, low class, neighbor comes up accusing us of being the thiefs that have been buglarizing the neigborhood. For about 10 minutes we were polite, understanding, and explained the situation. But the neighbor started addressing me directly accusing and cussing at me, I finally lost my temper and went off saying something like "You say we were here for 10 minutes or more looking in the windows right? It's an empty house idiot, how long are we going to case an EMPTY house?, You are totally wrong right now but you are too stupid or stubborn to realize it and you are accusing innocent people. You're the one causing the problem right now. There's no way we'd rent this place with an as#@&%e neighbor like you next door. Call the listing agent and see if we talked to her earlier today." After my outburst the cop stopped believing the nieghbor and started believing us because what I said made sense, but the neighbor still was unconvinced and pissed that the cop didn't think we were guilty at that point. The cop left but my friend and I had to sit there in his van for another 15 minutes or so because his van has a glitch where it wouldn't start until it cooled down. The whole time we were waiting for the neigbor to come back out with a gun or something.

And we were college student white kids. I can't imagine what would have happened if we were black. The cop seemed reasonable and it probably wouldn't have mattered to him, but the neighbor was an as#@&%e who couldn't see he was wrong even when I told him how illogical his view was, just the type to be racist.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 28, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
JE: If someone shoots another in self-defense, no [edit: United States] law of which I am aware authorizes prosecution. Florida's law differs from that norm because its interpretation lacks objectivity in determining self-defense.

In Canada, and I believe many US states, an independent party or parties - police, prosecution, grand jury - determines whether it appears that there was an objective, reasonable basis for the claim of self-defence or not, based on the evidence. In turn, a court hears the evidence and makes the decision. Laws like this allow an interested party, who may often be the only surviving witness, to make that decision.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 28, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
JE: If someone shoots another in self-defense, no [edit: United States] law of which I am aware authorizes prosecution. Florida's law differs from that norm because its interpretation lacks objectivity in determining self-defense.

MH: In Canada, and I believe many US states, an independent party or parties - police, prosecution, grand jury - determines whether it appears that there was an objective, reasonable basis for the claim of self-defence or not, based on the evidence. In turn, a court hears the evidence and makes the decision. Laws like this allow an interested party, who may often be the only surviving witness, to make that decision.

JE hasn't responded to my earlier post, but it appears that he is wrong in his clam that Florida's law "lacks objectivity in determining self-defense." (If he or anyone else can show I'm wrong, notwithstanding the "plain meaning" of the statute, which requires reasonableness, I'll give thanks for the correction.)

MH--I'm not an expert on Florida criminal law, but I've yet to see any suggestion that the Florida law would be applied any differently from any other criminal law statute (and US criminal law is almost entirely statutory). The law in question doesn't change how the system works (police investigate, DA decides whether to bring charges, defense doesn't apply if the defendant's behavior isn't "reasonable"). There may (or may not) be problems with the FL law, but so far no one has shown any connection to those perceived problems and anything that has happened in the investigation of this case.



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
Bla bla bla, take it you have not read any of refrences to multiple cases where the FLA law has made it difficult for prosecuters to have a case resulting in letting the murderer free. In most states the shooter has to prove that the person he shot was in the preocess of taking the shooters life or that of annother person. The perp must have the intention to kill and the means to kill . In VT if I think you are trying to kill me and I waste you and your gun turns out to be a bag of skittles I go to prison. IN FL I walk without even a trip to the police station.
In FL the threat does not have to be real. The way it is worded the court has ruled by the letter of the law VS the intent of the law setting pressidence that the threat does not have to be real, it can be imagined. If you are afraid for your life you may shoot regardless of the fact that your life was not actually in danger.

That precidence that has been established in FL greatly affected this case. The cops knew they couldn't make anything stick so they didn't try very hard.. The SYG law set the precidence. The shooter walks without even a trip downtown.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
thought experiment

Is there any chance in hell that if a Black guy shot an unarmed White guy in Florida that he wouldn't have been charged or taken to jail

I think no chance at all

which is the problem

Peace

Karl
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
this thread is so full of outright BS from both sides that it is hilarious.

the police at the scene wanted to arrest the Zman so dont sh#t on them.

many of you want to condemn Zman without a trial, do you need a noose? really?

none of us know the facts until we actually sit in the jbox during the trial. all you f*#ks are doing is proving what blind as#@&%es you are whether you are on one side or the other......
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Not sure if we do know that is zimmerman? if it is it is the first time that I was aware that they brought him downtown for questioning? he certainly looks physicaly fine in the video.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 28, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
This shows why in the old days the trials were more speedy.

The longer this drags on the more polarizing it becomes.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
Zimmerman is not a cop. He had absolutely no business following and confronting Martin, who nobody has alleged or even hinted was committing a crime of any sort. The 911 dispatcher instructed him to desist. He didn't, but rather continued to stalk Martin and at some point confronted him.

There is no "defense" here, only aggression on the part of Zimmerman.

The investigating detective wanted to file homicide charges. Apparently he was overridden by a state judicial official.

Zimmerman should be arrested and there should be a trial.

@blahblah - Your statments are the stupidest thing I've read in many years.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Is there any chance in hell that if a Black guy shot an unarmed White guy in Florida that he wouldn't have been charged or taken to jail

Google Trevor Dooley and your question will be answered, Karl.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:16am PT
zimmerman was taken to jail and released when the da determined there was not enough evidence to hold him; however, that was not the end of the investigation

f displays his limited vocabulary when he claims "kill" is synonymous with "murder"; he also shows his contempt for the justice system by admitting he does not need to hear any evidence to determine if a crime has been committed
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:53am PT
Karl has so little faith in his fellow man. I would hope that equal treatment would take place.

As my grandpa used to say, "Hope in one hand and sh#t in the other and see which one fills up first."

Google Trevor Dooley.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:01am PT
Zimmerman is not a cop. He had absolutely no business following and confronting Martin,

Personally, I'd rather wait to hear the evidence, but I would like to point out that the common notion that it is only the job of the police to confront criminals is disingenuous.
The main job of police is to clean up messes. Being pro-active is great, but they can't be everywhere at once.

The front line in the war on crime is and always has been right in everyone's face. Certainly an uncomfortable notion but deal with it!

You can run and hide, put three locks on the door, or you can chose to become pro-active.

The truth is that far more criminals are justifiably shot by civilians than cops.

That said, if Zimmerman was out looking for somebody to shoot, then put him in prison.
But if he was performing a legitimate neighborhood watch and confronted a suspicious person who became suddenly so violent that he had little time to react, then I don't intend to second guess him from the comfort of my gun room.
Nor do I think anyone who hasn't been the victim of a felony ought to be.

Let the justice system chew on this one.


I still stand by my prediction;
Federal charges for civil rights violation, civil mega-judgement but little coin to show for it
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:32am PT
But Ron, is walking on the sidewalk back to your house with candy criminal?
WBraun

climber
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:34am PT
They just released a video of Zimmerman after he was arrested at the police station and it appears in that video he had no injuries and no broken nose.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-shooter-george-zimmerman-appears-uninjured-police-video-night-shooting-article-1.1052433
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:36am PT
The likely scenario, judging from the various accounts is that Zimmerman thought Trayvon looked suspicious, law enforcement told him to back off, but he followed him anyway, disregarding their advice. Trayvon was then the one who felt threatened. It was the man following him who possessed a gun, after all, not him!!

Even if Trayvon turned on Zimmerman and punched him out, he also had the right to self-defense, didn't he? If Zimmerman can claim self defense against someone, even though he was following the guy, he had a gun, and the other guy didn't, how much more so could Trayvon have made the same claim. No one thus far has seemed to grasp the point that Trayvon has as much a right to act in self-defense as Zimmerman. Trayvon's in-laws, after all lived in that neighborhood, he had a perfect right to be there.

If I were in charge of admissions for the Florida police academy, I don't think I'd take Zimmerman
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:48am PT
Even if Trayvon turned on Zimmerman and punched him out, he also had the right to self-defense, didn't he? If Zimmerman can claim self defense against someone, even though he was following the guy, he had a gun, and the other guy didn't, how much more so could Trayvon have made the same claim. No one thus far has seemed to grasp the point that Trayvon has as much a right to act in self-defense as Zimmerman. Trayvon's in-laws, after all lived in that neighborhood, he had a perfect right to be there.

Actually I think lots of people have "grasped" your point, and it may be be correct (although it's not obvious to me that Trayvon would have the legal right to start beating the crap out of George, even if George was following Trayvon and being an obnoxious jerk by asking him where he was going / what he was doing).

It is hypothetically possible to have a situation where two people would have the legal right to act in self-defense and use deadly force against each other. In that case, it's just the luck of the draw who comes out on top, but no crime has been committed.

Here's an analogy: not every automobile accident is the result of negligence on the part of either driver. You may have an Escalade steamroll a SmartCar where the SmartCar driver did nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean the Escalde driver is liable under criminal or civil law.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
"appears uninjured"...granted, that calls into question the police report that states z was "bloody" on his face and the back of his head; however, it's not a "smoking gun"

it simply doesn't make sense that the police lied on their official report then took z to the police station where they KNEW there would be multiple cameras to reveal their false report; also, the cops would have to be certain that others on the scene (witnesses, ems personnel, and possibly coroner's and da personnel) would conspire to cover for them

the logical explanation (though still entirely based on speculation) is as follows: police are required to take injured suspects (note, z is cuffed in the back seat of the patrol car, which proves he was taken into custody) to the hospital if needed or render first aid on the scene; so, it makes sense that z would be cleaned up by the time he arrived at the police station


"Trayvon was then the one who felt threatened. It was the man following him who possessed a gun, after all, not him!!"

again, you're not thinking logically; you assume z had his gun drawn, which makes martin look pretty stupid (or at least reckless) for attacking a man who's holding a gun on him rather than running away or screaming for help

yes, martin had a right to be there, but residents also have a right to be suspicious if they don't recognize somebody walking in their neighborhood at night; and there's nothing illegal (or even wrong) about confronting such a person--especially following a rash of burglaries--to which the reasonable response is "my name is trayvon martin; my family lives on this street; you can follow me there to be sure"
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
We'll never know what really happened. I'm guessing Zimmerman tried to detain Martin cuz he knew the cops were on the way and didn't want 'another one' to get away as he said on 911 tape. Any kind of physical contact could easily escalate into a fight.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
you compare this incident to the holocaust, and i'm the one who be ashamed?


the whole purpose of neighborhood watch is to "watch" for suspicious activity; yes, martin was, technically, a child, but he was also 6'2" and walking with his hood up on a warm florida night; there had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood; there is NOTHING wrong with asking such a person to identify himself

bruce, you're the one who assumes this was a racial incident and fueled by hatred when you have NO PROOF whatsoever; in fact, the evidence we have about z's racial attitudes point to exactly the opposite (i.e. black men defending his character)
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
Yep Bookwarm, WATCH, means you watch and report. Don't confront and detain. He knew the cops were on the way.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
zimmerman derangement syndrome: trayvon martin's death = the holocaust = global warming skepticism = acceptance (sic) of gays


bad news, f, but i think bruce might be looking to take your place; you better come up with something way more unhinged than "murder"
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
bookworm:
and walking with his hood up on a warm florida night

Bookie, do you ever get anything right? You seem to have some sort of recurring problems with facts. And not just in this thread.

Trayvon Martin, 17, died Feb. 26 in a dark pathway some 20 minutes after a neighborhood watch volunteer called police saying he thought a young stranger looked suspicious. It was raining, and the volunteer thought the kid in the hoodie walked too slow and peeked in windows.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html

Is it possible you've got anything else wrong?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
How come we didn't have to wait on a report on Trevor Dooley?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
oops, one wrong fact--i guess i'm a racist hoping for a black holocaust; just ignore everything else


The Corner

The one and only.

10 Things That We’ve Learned from the Trayvon Martin Tragedy

By Victor Davis Hanson
March 29, 2012 11:27 A.M.

1) So far there has been very little new light shed on exactly what happened on the night of the shooting. It is likely that Mr. Zimmerman will be arrested on some sort of charge, local, state, or federal, and more likely that most will believe that such an arrest is as much a necessary price to soothe racial passions as it is likely to be based on careful review of existing evidence.

2) Identity in this ill society is everything — something to be put on and taken off as one sees advantage. Civil-rights supporters prefer to wear hoodies in rallies and demonstrations in solidarity with the hooded Mr. Martin, but prefer the media to continue to show pictures of a young-looking victim in football attire that better offers a sympathetic portrait to the general public. Hispanic and Democratic George Zimmerman, had he Hispanicized his name (something like a Jorge Zimmerman, or had he used his mother’s Latino maiden name), would have either found a supportive chorus from Latino activists, or the entire case of Latino-black crime would not have had commensurate resonance. If Mr. Zimmerman were applying for a civil-service job, no one would have created the new rubric “white Hispanic.” Even at this late date, if he were to use his mother’s maiden name as part of a hyphenated last name, he would earn more empathy. Unfortunately, he found himself pigeonholed as a white conservative vigilante, not a Hispanic Democrat, and that has made all the difference in his media profile.

3) The hysteria is not just over the death of a young African-American male, because hundreds are tragically killed to near silence every year, 94 percent of them by other African-American males. Nor is the outrage over a supposed white war against black men, given that in incidents of interracial crime, the latter kill the former far more frequently. Nor is it just over the decision, so far, of the police not to arrest and indict George Zimmerman, because hundreds of black assailants of other blacks each year find themselves not charged for capital crimes, because of the proven difficulties of obtaining critical affidavits, and the reluctance of eye-witnesses to come forward in the inner-city. In general, there are no marches or demonstrations over what has become a case of sheer carnage of one particular racial and gender group in our cities, or the frequent inability to bring murder suspects to trial. Finally, if the deceased had been white, and there are numerous whites killed each year in self-defense cases, with the facts as we know them so far unchanged, there would be zero national interest.

4) There are no such things any more as overtly recognized racial smears, at least not in the absolute sense. They now depend on perceptions of who says what and why, a relative condition. The country is obsessed with decoding a scratchy tape to ascertain whether Mr. Zimmerman said “cold, coons, goons, or punks,” with the idea that if the garbled word proves a racial slur, then we have the magical key that will supposedly unlock the case — even as the late Travyon Martin self-identified himself with the N-word on his Twitter account and used it of his friends. No one can explain why Mr. Martin felt a need to so self-identify; no one seems to care; and no one can provide rules of the conditions under which (who says it, and when, why, how) society must deplore the use of such an epithet.

5) The country is unhinged and pays no attention to simple logic. The mother of Trayvon Martin deplores society’s supposed media obsession over her son, even as she seeks to trademark her son’s name for traditional marketing purposes, after avowing her legal efforts are only to protect his legacy. We are to deplore the use of past information about Mr. Martin that might lend background information to the case (past suspensions, possible drug use, alleged possession of possible stolen items, etc.) that seems at odds with the narratives provided by the media, but simultaneously must be told that in the past Mr. Zimmerman was a vigilante, racist, had brushes with the law, was a bad credit risk, etc. In short, we are to accept that background information is a relative issue, and a necessary means only if it leads to proper ends.

6) There really is no law. The Martins have legitimate questions about the absence of an indictment, as do many in this country who are unhappy with the use of self-defense pleas. That said, no one believes the Black Panthers will be charged with a felony for posting an open-season bounty on Mr. Zimmerman; no one believes that Spike Lee’s deliberate attempt to incite a mob reaction at the Zimmerman residence will even be considered a misdemeanor; and no one believes that a crowd of protestors detouring into a pharmacy to loot it will face arrests for theft. Everyone believes that if he were to emulate any of the above behavior in a non-racially-charged case, he would most surely risk some sort of legal repercussions.

7) There can be no more presidential editorializing. In this case, the Gates matter, the Fluke incident, and the Giffords tragedy, the president weighed in only to find his commentary either unsupported by facts, premature, prejudicial, or abjectly partisan. Nor will the attorney general weigh in, given that he has lost credibility after nonsensically calling the nation “cowards” for not wishing for a dialogue on race on his terms, referring to African-Americans as “my people,” and alleging racism as the cause of congressional questioning of his handling of the Fast and Furious debacle.

8) Mr. Zimmerman indeed may be guilty of second-degree murder, some sort of manslaughter, criminal negligence, or innocent by reason of self-defense. But we are at a point now where such considerations have become secondary to the larger agendas of activists. Mr. Sharpton, Mr. Jackson, the Black Panther Party, the Black Caucus, Spike Lee, and others may feel their invective and shoot-from-the-hip allegations are necessary to ensure an indictment, given the history of racial bias in this country; but fairly or not that aim seems secondary to their larger interests in racial scapegoating and acrimony for careerist reasons. Of course, they are not worried about such criticism, but it nonetheless is widely shared, as the opportunism and lack of ethics of the current self-identified civil-rights establishment is becoming a national consensus.

9) Most who editorialize so passionately on this case, black and white, live in cities, but most likely as far away from those neighborhoods and inner-city schools where murder is an epidemic as they can. They are engaging in de facto profiling in every aspect of their and their childrens’ lives, based on general perceptions, personal experience, and statistical data. Profiling and stereotyping are for others; a “good” or “safe” area is for the more sensitive and educated.

10) If an outsider were dispassionately to collate the public statements of the Black Caucus, the number of widely publicized racial controversies, and the charges of racism and counter-racism in the last three years, then one would conclude that racial relations, at least at the media and sensationalized level, from 2009–2012 were both far more emphasized and far worse, and the country far more polarized, than at any time in recent memory. In short, we are entering a dangerous phase in which millions of Americans have resigned themselves to allowing elites to construct one sort of reality, while they disengage from it and privately live quite another.


the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
martin was, technically, a child, but he was also 6'2" and walking with his hood up on a warm florida night; there had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood; there is NOTHING wrong with asking such a person to identify himself

We don't know the details yet and may never know, but it's no surprise to see those on the right quick to support a LEO wannabe with a gun vs. an unarmed black person who was doing nothing wrong.

He was "technically" a child. He WAS a child. Interesting use of technically there.

It sounds like he had his hood down until he realized he was being followed then put it up. And it was raining. Even suggesting blame for wearing a hood up is like blaming a rape victim for being dressed provocatively. It doesn't justify anything.

There is nothing wrong with asking a person to identify themselves, but if that person refuses or ignores the asker, they can do NOTHING about it.

Bottom line Zimmerman was pursuing Martin. If we take Zimmerman at his word that Martin attacked him (which sounds like BS to me by how Z describes it, why is someone going to all of a sudden risk their own safety and attack someone else who had 100 pounds on him?) Z still pursued him which led to the confrontation. Even if it was self defense Z should have been arrested and shares blame for creating the situation.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
right, i see someone 6'2" and i automatically think "child"

and nobody is "defending" zimmerman; we're simply responding to the unhinged rhetoric, the seemingly instinctive accusations of racism, the conspiracy theories, the fact that a militant group has offered a "bounty" for zimmerman (for what, his...capture?...he's not even a fugitive), the fact that spike lee tweeted an incorrect address for zimmerman and forced an elderly couple to flee their home and go into hiding, the fact that roseanne barr has tweeted the address for zimmerman's parents, the fact that a rap artist has released a song calling for violence, the fact that members of congress--our supposed "lawmakers"--are trashing the legal system by declaring zimmerman guilty of first degree murder and racial profiling, etc.

if zimmerman is guilty of stalking and murdering martin, he should receive the death penalty...but he should first receive a fair trial



The Media and Black Homicide Victims

By Heather Mac Donald
March 29, 2012 7:00 A.M.

Cable mogul Evan Shapiro had a stunningly clueless Trayvon Martin entry on Huffington Post yesterday asking: Why doesn’t the media cover more black crime victims?

Shapiro, the president of indie cable broadcaster IFC, should pose the same question to Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and every member of the black protest establishment: Why don’t you protest more black crime victims? The answer would be the same in all cases: Because the only black victims who interest the race industry and its mainstream media handmaidens are blacks who have been killed by “white” civilians, including honorary whites like Martin’s killer George Zimmerman, or blacks who have been killed or offended by the police (black officers will do here in a pinch).

Unfortunately, there are very few such victims. Ninety-three percent of all black homicide casualties from 1980 to 2008 were killed by other blacks, and are thus of no interest whatsoever to today’s race advocates, because they fail to support the crucial story line that blacks remain under siege by a racist white power structure.

The coverage of New York City’s West Indian Day Parade in September 2011 exemplifies this rule. The New York Times and other local outlets spilled an enormous amount of ink on an altercation between a black city councilman, Jumaane Williams, and the New York Police Department. Williams had tried to cross a police line, and, when he was not allowed to pass, got into a scuffle with some officers. He was then handcuffed and held until the police verified his identity. The city’s Public Advocate, a New York State Assemblyman, and Williams charged the police with racism, claiming that the treatment of Williams exemplified the “siege mentality” with which the police treat black men in New York City. To this day, the Williams detention is regularly mentioned by the New York Times in its constant coverage of the alleged racism of the NYPD.

What else happened on that parade day in 2011? A black-on-black bloodbath:

In the pre-dawn celebrations known as J’ouvert that open the parade, one man was fatally shot, crowds were sprayed with gunfire, and several people were stabbed. A shooting at a McDonald’s at 6 am triggered a stampede. The police repeatedly had to break up mobs that formed after gunfire. . . .

Later that day, a shootout near the parade route killed its intended victim as well as a 55-year-old mother who had been standing nearby; the two police officers who responded to the murders were also shot. Police also arrested someone in the vicinity of the parade who shot off several rounds without hitting anyone. The day’s violence would have likely been even worse had officers not removed 15 guns from spectators; each of those potentially life-saving stops would undoubtedly be condemned as racial profiling by the ACLU and its backers in the City Council and in Albany.

Previous West Indian Day Parades were hardly more pacific; the violence includes a man shot in the leg in 2007; another leg shooting and a stabbing in 2006; a man shot to death in 2005; and in 2003, a stabbing in the neck and someone who, from his perch on a parade float, shot into a group of spectators and killed one of them.

None of this violence was given the intense and loving press treatment accorded to the detention of Jumaane Williams. In fact, it was barely mentioned at all, even though, arguably, it is more serious to be shot dead than to be briefly detained by the police. Nothing prevented Al Sharpton from protesting the killings and stabbings that day. However, only Councilman Williams falls into the favored category of, in this case, black victim offended by the police, and so his detention was the only event that day worth noting.

On Halloween 2010, five-year-old Aaron Shannon Jr. was playing in his family’s backyard in his Spiderman costume in South Central Los Angeles. Two gangbangers from the Kitchen Crips, seeking to avenge a previous gang shooting, shot randomly towards some houses and killed Shannon, also wounding the boy’s grandfather and uncle. Sharpton, Inc., was perfectly free to make the names of Shannon’s killers, Leonard Hall Jr., 21, and Marcus Denson, 18, as infamous as that of George Zimmerman. But the race baiters never showed up. The killing aroused not the slightest interest from them because it was useless in aiding the white racism conceit. And so no one outside Shannon’s immediate circle remembers today who Hall and Denson are, even though Shannon was at least as innocent as Trayvon Martin (whose image as combined Eagle Scout-St. Francis of Assisi has in any case come under some stress of late, information, that, if true, is not irrelevant to assessing Zimmerman’s self-defense claim.)

We know the names of virtually every unarmed black civilian shot by the New York Police Department in recent years — Amadou Diallo, Patrick Dorismond, Sean Bell — as well we should. To the extent that botched police tactics or training contributed to these tragic killings, the incidents are rightly publicized so that they can be prevented from reoccurring. Here’s the difference between these killings — they are a tiny handful — and the routine black-on-black killings that occur by the dozen every day across the country. The officers who mistakenly shot their victims thinking they were facing a deadly threat set out that morning to protect people, often in minority neighborhoods, not to injure anyone. A significant number of black-on-black shootings, however, like many shootings among all races, are done in cold blood.

Here’s another difference between police killings of blacks, white-on-black killings, and black-on-black killings: Sheer numbers. There were nine civilian victims of police gunfire last year in New York City; there were several hundred black homicide victims in the city, almost all shot by other blacks or Hispanics, none of them given substantial press coverage. Nationwide, in 2005, there were 2,646 black victims of other blacks, compared to 349 black victims of whites or Hispanics. The relative rates of interracial killings are wildly skewed towards black on white killings: There were two and a half times as many white and Hispanic victims of civilian black killers in 2009 as there were black victims of civilian white and Hispanic killers, even though the black population is one-sixth that of whites and Hispanics combined. Yet to read columnists such as the Times’s Charles Blow or to listen to the professional racial extortionists, it is the police and whites who are the biggest threat to blacks, not other blacks.

A further prudential reason why the routine black gangbanger victim gets so little coverage: He is not particularly appealing. Though he had the misfortune of being the victim that day, he could just as easily have been the perpetrator the next day. That is true of many white-on-white homicides as well.

Shapiro, of course, has another explanation for the absence of coverage of most black crime victims: The media is too white, especially in its upper ranks. The “stunning under-representation of minorities at the TOP of our national and local news organizations creates an institutional lack of empathy for minority victims of violent crime,” he writes. Has he noticed that Trayvon Martin is not exactly being ignored? As soon as the media got wind of the story, it ran with it. When Amadou Diallo was shot by four NYPD officers in 1999, the New York Times ran three and a half articles a day on the incident for several months.

If Sharpton protested outside the jail cell of the routine robber or gunman in East New York with as much zeal as he devotes to allegedly racist whites or to the police, if he ever stigmatized black killers of blacks, the phony problem of “racial profiling” might go away, since it is merely an epiphenomenon of black crime. Protesting or covering black crime, however, would require bringing out some uncomfortable truths, such as the fact that the homicide rate among black males of the ages of 14 to 24 is nearly ten times that of white and Hispanic young males combined. Evan Shapiro mentions the elevated rates of black homicide victimization but somehow neglects to include the black homicide commission rate. His column flawlessly exemplifies the ignorance of the Hollywood elites regarding today’s racial realities.

— Heather Mac Donald is a contributing editor of City Journal and the author of Are Cops Racist?

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
oops, one wrong fact

In your dreams. It's a constant cascade of misinformation from you.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
"In order to receive a "fair" trail, there must first be a trial.

That is the issue."

ok, but there has to be sufficient evidence to formally charge somebody; then, there has to be sufficient evidence to take the case to trial


again, zimmerman was cuffed and taken into custody, not, as some seem to suggest, patted on the back and sent on his merry way

it appears the da ordered zimmerman released that night based on the LAW (the law seems clear to me, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be amended or even repealed, but, until that time, it must be followed) but that doesn't mean the investigation ended, either; the police can't just hold anybody indefinitely without a charge

and a trial might still happen, but i think it would be wrong if the trial happens just because of political pressure
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
Personally, I'd rather wait to hear the evidence, but I would like to point out that the common notion that it is only the job of the police to confront criminals is disingenuous. The main job of police is to clean up messes. Being pro-active is great, but they can't be everywhere at once.

Not everywhere, but they were there in Sanford. You're overlooking the fact that the cops were on the way and that he was told not to follow him.

There is a whole line of argument initiated by academics, but actually implemented in e.g. NYC that it is more beneficial for the police to actively prevent the messes than to clean them up. In the situation under discussion here, had Z-man obeyed the dispatcher there would not have been a big mess, the cops could have confonted Martin and busted him for formerly possessing marijuana or some such.

I'm inclined to agree that it will all end up a "civil rights" violation.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
somebody should be arrested for this:

https://twitter.com/#!/KillZimmerman

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
A 140 pound 6'2" kid.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
The case of Emmett Till.

The defense asserted that Bryant and Milam [two of the murderers] had taken Till, but had let him go.

Sound familiar? Z-man asserts that he "lost" Martin and then Martin snuck up and punched him in the nose from behind.



Suppose

Z-man decides he's gonna rape a woman. Follows(stalks) her. When questioned he states that he figured she was a prostitute walking the streets.

Z-man is an aspiring car-jacker. He follows(stalks) a driver in the parking lot. When questioned he states he thought the car was stolen.

Z-man...

Why were you carrying a gun? Because it's legal. I carry, therefore I am.

These are hypetheticals, don't wet yourself. Substitute J-man if you'd like.



graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
walking with his hood up on a warm florida night;

The news reports say it was a cold rainy night.

The weather data for Sanford, Florida for February 26th supports this:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

High: 69
Low: 53
Precipitation (rain): 0.20 in.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
Kid should have told Zimmerman, "go ahead call the LEO"

Kid should have gotten of the phone with gf and called 911 himself.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
A 140 pound 6'2" kid

You sure about that weight?
Do you know anyone of that height / weight?
I see skinny, strong climbers all the time, but I don't think I've seen anone that tall, that light. Not saying it's impossible, but that sounds fishy . . .
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
blahblah:
You sure about that weight?
Do you know anyone of that height / weight?
I see skinny, strong climbers all the time, but I don't think I've seen anone that tall, that light. Not saying it's impossible, but that sounds fishy . . .

Police have not moved from their official statement of the shooting. But as the controversy grows, so does the number of voices disputing the official version that watch captain George Zimmerman gave to police: that the six-foot, three-inch, 140-pound teen assaulted him when Zimmerman, 28, tried to question him. In fear for his life, he pulled Kel Tek 9mm handgun from his waistband and shot.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/v-fullstory/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
"Ah, I'm finally getting it... so, because he looked like an adult black man, that made Tayvon a threat duly subject to gunfire. Sounds reasonable"


unhinged; you know i was responding to the claims that zimmerman killed "a child", which, you know, implies zimmerman knew he was only 17

unhinged; you, again, claim zimmerman shot him because he was black, or, specifically, because "he looked...black"; you have no PROOF that this was a racially motivated crime (or a crime, at all) and, of course, ignore my repeated reminders that zimmerman has BLACK friends defending him (one who remains anonymous because he fears for his safety--oh, brave new world that a man fears for his safety if he speaks up for his friend)

"Because Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight!"

unhinged; again, you imply that zimmerman was "stalking" martin or was looking for somebody to "fight" or, since he was carrying his gun, somebody to kill




"All of which wouldn't have apologists now look like such scum bags for trying to justify why it's perfectly okay an unarmed youth is dead for no good reason."

unhinged; NOBODY is claiming it's "perfectly okay" that martin is dead; NOBODY is happy that he's dead; and NOBODY is claiming there's a "good reason" he's dead...we are, in fact, claiming there's a reason he's dead but NOBODY (besides zimmerman) knows what that reason is even though many people are claiming they do know; we're simply claiming there's no way, based on the evidence that has been made public, to know if zimmerman committed murder (1 or 2) or manslaughter or any crime at all; in fact, the evidence released so far indicates that he acted within the law (and that's not a defense of the law); we're simply trying to quell the rage before somebody else gets hurt

"And, before we get into that can of worms, I am pro-gun ownership, just not pro psycho idiot"

unhinged: you have no way of knowing if zimmerman is "psycho"; i agree, he put himself in a bad situation, but that's not a crime; and, yes, i'll take the word of his BLACK friends that zimmerman is a good man and a good citizen over the rantings of sharpton, jackson, farrakhan, spike lee, roseanne barr, doctor f, bruce kay, etc.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 29, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
fact:

none of us know the whole story. only what the news channels has sppon fed us and they tend to spoon feed us the stuff that sells.

some of you guys would have been lynching people early on back in the old west times....

tragic? yes. but face it, if you were attacked and knocked down and afraid for your life and you were carrying, would you shoot to save yourself?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
unhinged; you know i was responding to the claims that zimmerman killed "a child", which, you know, implies zimmerman knew he was only 17

He killed a child, whether or not he knew how old the kid was. Age is objective, not subjective.

unhinged; you, again, claim zimmerman shot him because he was black, or, specifically, because "he looked...black"; you have no PROOF that this was a racially motivated crime (or a crime, at all) and, of course, ignore my repeated reminders that zimmerman has BLACK friends defending him (one who remains anonymous because he fears for his safety--oh, brave new world that a man fears for his safety if he speaks up for his friend)

Other than he called the kid a f*#king coon?

"Because Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight!"

unhinged; again, you imply that zimmerman was "stalking" martin or was looking for somebody to "fight" or, since he was carrying his gun, somebody to kill

It was implied that Zimmerman was stalking the kid when Zimmerman left his car to stalk the kid, don't you think?




"All of which wouldn't have apologists now look like such scum bags for trying to justify why it's perfectly okay an unarmed youth is dead for no good reason."

unhinged; NOBODY is claiming it's "perfectly okay" that martin is dead; NOBODY is happy that he's dead; and NOBODY is claiming there's a "good reason" he's dead...we are, in fact, claiming there's a reason he's dead but NOBODY (besides zimmerman) knows what that reason is even though many people are claiming they do know; we're simply claiming there's no way, based on the evidence that has been made public, to know if zimmerman committed murder (1 or 2) or manslaughter or any crime at all; in fact, the evidence released so far indicates that he acted within the law (and that's not a defense of the law); we're simply trying to quell the rage before somebody else gets hurt

All well and good.

"And, before we get into that can of worms, I am pro-gun ownership, just not pro psycho idiot"

unhinged: you have no way of knowing if zimmerman is "psycho"; i agree, he put himself in a bad situation, but that's not a crime; and, yes, i'll take the word of his BLACK friends that zimmerman is a good man and a good citizen over the rantings of sharpton, jackson, farrakhan, spike lee, roseanne barr, doctor f, bruce kay, etc.

Forget the strawmen. Let's look at the best case scenario for Zimmerman. He left his car armed, pursued a kid who was guilty of nothing more than walking home. The kid confronted his stalker, got the best of the situation and got shot.

That's the best case scenario for Zimmerman. Ugly, isn't it?

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
You can't hit someone if you are afraid for your life? I thought that was the whole point of the Florida law. Don't back down, take it to your adversary.

Lesson: use a gun, not your fists.
nature

climber
CO
Mar 29, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
no kidding monolith. apparently the biggest mistake here was Trayvon not packing and defending himself (under the FL law). Of course then Trayvon would be in custody...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
The way the law is written and has been interpreted by the couts is just crazy legal murder.

Two neighbors argue about trash bag limits on collection day. One shoots the other unarmed man in the chest with a 9mm and walks. FL Stand your ground.

Man goes nuts on basketball court. goes home comes back with gun. shoots and kills the unarmed man who tries to disarm him. FL stand your ground.

Wanna be cop follows and intimidates black kid ( the text messages to his GF confirm he felt threatened) Unarmed kid ends up shot and dead. FL stand your ground.

There are hundreds more of these. About eighty per year since 2006. Guys like Buley and Ron A, Donald etc who keep voiceing support for this law are sick individuals.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
There is a lot of opportunism going on. There are a lot of people ready to condemn Z without all the facts. I've seen video of rallies with mob mentality that would lynch Z if he was there. That's wrong, and if you are against that fine. But many are defending Z by attacking Martin. Or justifying what is known that Z did which led to the confrontation.

Forget the strawmen. Let's look at the best case scenario for Zimmerman. He left his car armed, pursued a kid who was guilty of nothing more than walking home. The kid confronted his stalker, got the best of the situation and got shot.

Much is unclear. Hopefully we'll know more (I'd really like to know who was screaming for help). But given the best case scenario for Z above it's BS he was not charged and a thorough and logical investigation was done.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
He wasn't exactly told not to follow.

The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that".

Hair splitting perhaps, but such details get scrutinized.





Still waiting to hear all the evidence,...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
I have done body guard training, took the courses passed the test been licenced to be an armed bodyguard. There is absolutly no way many of these FL shootings would go unprosecuted in VT. They have removed all the obsticals from the ROE that are supposed to keep you on your toes and make damn sure that your shot is justified before you send that round down range. Once you pull that trigger you can NEVER get that round back or reverse whatever consequences it causes.

The ROE for trained combat troops in Afganistan right now is much more restrictive than the ROE for untrained gunslingers in Forida.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
your claims of "stalking" imply zimmerman intended to kill him from the start; there's NO PROOF of that

it also implies, if you know anything about hunting, that zimmerman had his gun drawn, ready to shoot; there's NO PROOF of that; but this also implies martin attacked a man (according to eyewitness accounts) holding a gun, which certainly means he acted stupidly


all we KNOW is that zimmerman was FOLLOWING martin; was that stupid? in hindsight, yes; in the moment, not necessarily

would i have done it? if i was on neighborhood watch and there had been a rash of burglaries and the person in question was not familiar to me in my gated community and i had a cell phone to call the cops...maybe

so you claim it doesn't matter that zimmerman didn't know martin was only 17 even if he was 6'2"; so, if martin was only 5'2", it wouldn't be so bad that zimmerman killed him if martin was 18???




Studly

Trad climber
WA
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
So if I'm a black man or teenager in Florida and I am wearing a hoody and I see George Zimmerman, it seems like I can legally blow him away because I would be in fear of my life knowing that he kills black people in hoodies. No wonder Zimmerman is holded up. They better send him to prison because if that boy is out walking the streets again he is going to look like a piece of swiss cheese when theyre done with him. and all perfectly legal.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
Fattrad- I don't know much about this subject and hopefully you can edumacate me a little. Do you think the proper way to go about this would be a Grand Jury investigation to decide if there is probable cause for an arrest? What are the option for law enforcement at this point? Thanks for any feedback.


My gut instinct is to declare Zimmerman guilty and hang him myself. But my gut instinct has been wrong before. I'd like see justice served, not revenge. I guess what I'm saying is this case has created a lot of internal conflicts within myself. My emotional self wants one thing while my rational self wants something else.


I just listened to an interview with the victims dad. My heart goes out to his family, I hope they can eventually find peace. Such a senseless tragedy. :-(
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
He intended to confront him. I'd call that stalking. First following in his car, then getting out. If he had just stayed in his car, it would have come under the usual duty of a Neighborhood Watch. Watch and report.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
Bookworm you are one sick dude. read the transcripts of the 911 call from z man. even without the coon refrence it is the classic dialouge of a man on the hunt. I know a thing or two about hunting.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
Nobody wants another lynching. What many want is thorough due process. For both sides.

none of us know all the facts. thats a fact jack.

let due process run its course.

when this story first hit i was with you guys ready to string zman to the highest tree.

now, it would seem that of course zman screwed up. i agree. but if the kid attacked him when zman was headed back to his vehicle, then this is one of those totally f*#ked up situations where the kid paid for his life by thinking he could just go thump someone.

bottom line.......none of you know all the facts. therefore, you are ignorant of all of the facts, therefore, you and I are simply spoutikng of what the press feeds us......

you guys do remember WMD's in Iraq right? lets bomb the f*#kers right???

still willing to make decisions on less than the facts?

edit:

i quoted this because although this guy disagreed with me i totally agree with the statement in quotes.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
Ok dead serious on this one. Rules Of Engagement =ROE

ROE for highly trained coalition troops in Afganistan right now is that the person Must not only be armed but aso be engageing you. If you do not see the busniss end of that AK or RPG poining directly at you, you may not engage. In many instances the US troops must wait untill the haji's actually fire on them to engage.
Florida ROE for untrained gunslingers. Any time you are afraid for your life you may open fire without requireing the person you shoot to be armed. There is also no requirement that your life actually be in danger only that you feared that your life was in danger.

Repuglicans, the most cowardly species on the planet these days.......

BTW fatty has it mostly right on this one. Zimmerman screwed up real bad and in most states even if Trevan engaged him in a fist fight zimmerman still goes down for instigateing the confrontation that ended in a homocide.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
I imagine if everyone who feels strongly about this case wrote to Disneyworld in Florida and told them that you would not be bringing your family this year due to this murder and the Stand your ground law, that the law would change pretty quickly. Because in Florida, money is what the rich folks that hide in their condos and big homes and make these laws understand. Get the Theme Parks in Florida concerned, and you will see change happen pretty quickly.
Maybe even start a boycott of Florida business and orange juice on Facebook. It can't help but take off like a raging wildfire. Hit em where it counts.
nature

climber
CO
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
if Z stays free some advice for him: move to a state w/o the stand your ground law.

someone will pick a fight and will shoot him and will claim they felt threatened if he stays in his hood and especially if he stays neighborhood watch.
nature

climber
CO
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
There would be no trial, that you patiently advise everyone to wait for, if there was not the public outcry and discussion that you advocate against.

worth repeating
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Dr. F how do you know they were Cubanos? brown?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
^^^ everybody's got too much time on their hands (including me).
But, you gotta take 'Zimmy' off that list. Zimmy is Bob Dylan and he wears a hoodie.

You know all those h-angels at Altamont were acting in self-defense too. F*ckin' coon had a gun didn't he? The neighborhood bullies rough up another black guy and he pulls his weapon out (in self-defense) and he ends up with a knife through his chest.


recognize z-man here?


First 40 seconds of this oughta do it "hey people ... hey people ... c'mon let's be cool ... "

[Click to View YouTube Video]






Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
well if they were in Florida they must be Cuban...or Dominican, Haitian, Seminole, Jewish, Don Johnson...


..wait. Is this a Politard thread? out.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
@wanted poster

You know it's the leftists, cuz if it was the rightists, there'd be bullet holes in Z-man's head and an X drawn through his face.

How many of these posters have been posted by sick-ass right wingers who advocate killing doctors?

It was the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. Florida woulda loved 'em if only they hadn't been f*ckin' coons. Rag up and bang.

Coward and liar that he is, z-man never woulda challenged a Panther. Not that they were right, but they were not the chickensh*t that z-man is.




Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Good point manzanita man. They have this irrational obsession with white on black murder. It's absurd.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Easy there folks.......
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:06am PT
WHY does the MEDIA focus on

the media focuses on whatever Rupert tells the media to focus on... journalism is long dead.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:20am PT
Armed man kills unarmed juvenile on a public street and is not charged.

FACKT
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:28am PT
then WHY does the MEDIA focus on RACE whenever given a chance?

Good question!

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/
nature

climber
CO
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:29am PT
StahlBro +1


oh Donald it must suck not having your brother skipt here as now your pathetic whines fall on deaf ears.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:54am PT
definitely not bursting any bubbles Donald...

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2012 - 01:05am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
correct. Agree
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 01:24am PT
The NWP (New White Panthers) are offering a $1,000 bounty on Spike Lee. On 2nd thought , spike lee lower case. He is a bigot, accused of hate crimes & must be brought to justice. A Chip in account in forth coming....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 30, 2012 - 02:11am PT


Emmett Louis Till (July 25, 1941 – August 28, 1955)
Murdered in Mississippi at the age of 14.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 30, 2012 - 02:21am PT
What's that got to do with this case?
Degaine

climber
Mar 30, 2012 - 03:26am PT
chaz wrote:

What's that got to do with this case?


What do the Black Panthers - or any of what bookworm and DT are spewing - have to do with this case?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:07am PT
Yeah - What donald said, he got a purty mouth.

FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:56am PT
Riley Wyna - Dr. F I don't usual agree with you guys ----- but Thank you for standing up for justice & against the sick blatant racism on this thread.
Fattrad I rarely agree with you --- but thank you for trying to stay centered & wait for the facts.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Mar 30, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Looks like Bobby Rush isn't the only one in his district that considers hoodies a fashion statement.



http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/03/30/Hoodie-Wearing-Gunmen-Kill-1-Wound-5-in-Rushs-Chicago-District
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
Dude it's stupid on both sides ----
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
Jekyll and Hyde




Zimmerman, the 28-year-old Sanford, Fla., neighborhood watch volunteer who shot the unarmed 17-year-old Martin to death last month, was fired from a job securing illegal house parties for “being too aggressive,” according to the New York Daily News, which quoted a former colleague of Zimmerman’s. According to the co-worker, Zimmerman worked for two agencies that provided security for house parties from 2001 to 2005.

“Usually he was just a cool guy,” said the former co-worker, who the newspaper didn't name. “But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When dude snapped, he snapped.” The Daily News said Zimmerman earned $50 to $100 a night for the parties. He was fired for being too aggressive with patrons.

“He had a temper and he became a liability,” the newspaper quoted the former co-worker as saying. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
I was not trying to prove anything


just adding some new information to the mix


is that ok?

do you have to prove something to post on this thread?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:26pm PT

no need to ask me when you can answer your own question


why don't you exercise personal responsibility and read the link I provided?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
Manazita, You are definatly one totaly sick dude. perhaps winning the grand prize. Meathead dumbass racist of the thread. Quite an accomplishment.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2012 - 07:11am PT
Please don't insult rednecks like that. Many myself included are damn good people, don't watch NASCAR or buy into the repuglican fantasy....
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 31, 2012 - 10:44am PT
You know the term redneck comes from the coal miners unions. The union men would tie a red scarf around their neck to ID them selfs form the thugs hired by the coal companies.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2012 - 10:56am PT
I thought it had something to do with working outside and getting the back of your neck sunburned? of course the modern version are mostly wannabes who work @ Wallmart and spend their money on NASCAR stickers....
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:28am PT
There is no need to prove a ignorant racist wrong.
michae1

Gym climber
san jose
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:36am PT
i have noticed that when some of the people here , don't like or agree with someone it starts to become nothing more then name calling, just saying
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:51am PT
when there's no place for reason in a debate, there's is no reason to debate...


WBraun

climber
Mar 31, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
i have noticed that when some of the people here , don't like or agree with someone it starts to become nothing more then name calling, just saying


This forum is not a structured moderated debate forum.

It's still the wild west. There's gunslingers at every turn.

If you're shot at better duck or shoot back. :-)

If you want to debate in a civil matter then go to court with a judge to moderate.

If you can't handle some peoples replies then just skip over them and ignore them.

Or are you that weak and fall apart if someone calls you an idiot, stupid or moron?

Americans are stupid .... :-)

lol


FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 31, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
There are some far right folks on this thread that have questioned what happened & have said wait for things to sort them selfs out, without showing any racism. With those people I can have a discussion. With out right sick racist there is no room for discussion. All you can do is point out what they are.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 31, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
That kid in the hoodie looked suspicious, so what. Call 911 whine about it and forget it.

The idiot ignored his instructions and training and went after the kid. He created a confrontation that did not exist, it was not needed.

If the kid was being an ass and the guy with the guy was being an ass and the kid hit the guy in the nose, the guy shot him dead.

There's the evidence. The kid is dead. The guy killed him because he failed to use common sense and follow the rules. He is protected by a law that was not intended for use in this situation. He needs to be prosecuted on those grounds. He's wide open for civil prosecution.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-video-shows-injury-george-zimmermans/story?id=16055412#.T3nrtvBSS8A

New report supports Zimmerman's claim that he had a significant injury to the back of his head at time of arrest.

This doesn't fully exonerates him, but it supports the guess as to what happened that many of us have: Zimmerman was being a weird jerk related at least in part to wannabe cop syndrome complete with racial profiling, a fight ensued, and the guy with the gun is suspected of murder of the guy without the gun is dead.

A big unknown is how much Trayvon was a completely innocent victim and how much did he escalated situation that was, at least initially, not of his own making. We'll probably never get to the bottom of that one.

While this is an interesting case, I'm not sure why it's captivated the American public.
Check this out for a recent, crazy hate crime that seems a lot more shocking to me:
http://kdvr.com/2012/04/01/man-shot-to-death-after-early-morning-traffic-altercation/

Maybe no one cares because no whites involved (as victims or perps)?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
If Obama had a son, he'd look like Trayvon...

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
"Maybe no one cares because no whites involved (as victims or perps)?"
Or maybe because they are some POS Gang Bangers, Drug Dealers or some other from of criminal that is killed and visits most large ERs on most days in America?

No, the victim in the Denver case I referred to was a black immigrant from Sudan, who was gunned down in front of his family by Hispanics (in a stolen car) who had thrown bottles at the black guy and yelled the N word.
They had the black guy's brother on the local TV news--he held the victim in has arms as he died. I know nothing about the black guy or his family, but pretty outrageous that you suggest that he may have been a gang banger or drug dealer. Absolutely zero evidence of that. (And remember, your favorite victim Trayvon was under suspension for drugs.)

The victim in the Denver caase had called the police, who told him to wait at a certain place for police to arrive. But by killers were faster than the police. Maybe a lesson for some of you liberals who don't think people should worry about their safety--just call cops if there's any trouble?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Enhance

I watched Blade Runner recently, don't remember seeing all those folks in it. Super Editor's cut?

Do microscopes, telescopes, MRI's, X-Rays etc. help us see something new or just help us find what we already think is there?

Was Z-man out West recently, endurance runner Micah True was found dead, might have been wearing a hoodie.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Wait, didn't Obama have an unarmed man shot????? OBL

I believe it was a group decision.

Don't we have to have a full investigation before statements like this can be made? Likewise, we probably need to have an investigation of whether the investigators mentioned above are competant to perform such an investigation.

....

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
the Fool blurted:

Wait, didn't Obama have an unarmed man shot????? OBL


damn right President Obama ordered the SEALS to kill that bastard who killed 3000 Americans.

Unlike Republican Bush who gave up even trying to find Bin Laden.

And get used to it, President Obama will kill anyone he considers a threat to the security of the United States.

Little pussies Romney and Santorum would probably "pray" rather than kill em.

Grow up Fattrad
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
fattrad
I'm not sure if Zimmerman is guilty or innocent at this point.
Guilty of what?

Do you think he's NOT guilty of chasing down a young man in the dark?
NOT guilty of accosting him?
NOT guilty of ignoring the dispatcher's advice (legally not a "command") to back off?
Did Zimmerman have ANY reason to believe that Trayvon had committed a crime?
OR that Trayvon was going to assault him before Zimmerman started his pursuit?
What LEGAL obligation was Trayvon under to halt when Zimmerman started to pursue him?

Zimmerman certainly created the confrontation. What exactly transpired during the confrontation is yet to be known. It's also largely irrelevant.

The problems with this sort of law in this situation should now be obvious.
You have untrained people, who think they are protecting their community, on the street with weapons. They are also NOT in the LEO chain of command. Ergo there is no LEO chain of responsibility.
He's not in uniform, has no badge.
The very definition of Loose Cannon. Or we could substitute the term "vigilante".
Did the dispatcher have the legal authority to call Zimmerman back? I don't think so. If he did, Zimmerman then failed to follow the directions of an officer.

Now think about it from Trayvon's point of view. Young man walking down a residential street at night. Minding his own business. Thinking of whatever he wanted to do when he got back to the house. Suddenly there's an older man chasing him down the street, yelling at him. So Trayvon has to make a split second choice, run like hell or turn and confront his pursuer. Again we don't know yet exactly what happened. Whether he had tried to flee and Zimmerman caught up with him, or if he turned towards Zimmerman, Trayvon had every reason to believe he was going to be attacked. He therefore had EVERY right to defend himself.
That's the sad, yet inevitable ending.
That's the root of the problem with this cockamaney law. And why more episodes like this are inevitable.

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
George Zimmerman, the man who shot and killed 17-year-old teen Trayvon Martin in Florida last month, was not the one screaming for help on the 911 tapes of the incident, according to two forensic experts who analyzed the evidence.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120401/zimmerman-not-the-one-screaming-911-tapes-trayvon-martin
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
THAT CHANGES INTO SELP-DEFENSE

Precisely......but the other way around........it's entirely possible, even likely, Trayvon was whacking this nut so he could get away. And he had EVERY right to.
I've been assaulted on campus at night....by two (not one) college red-shirted football players (they were wearing their letter jackets).
Because I had long hair and a beard and it was the 60's.
They had been following me and then yelled at me, I turned around, one of them slugged me and I knocked him flat on his arse. I had EVERY right. Or I had every right to run like hell if I'd suspected he was going to slug me. By the time his buddy picked him up off the ground I was running like the wind. That's the way it's supposed to end when no one's carrying a firearm.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
THAT CHANGES INTO SELP-DEFENSE

Nope, they were both standing their ground. Who kills first wins.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
It's self defense when the pursued has to defend himself against a pursuer. Even more so when then pursuer has no legal reason for the pursuit.

So many what if's and how comes and why's at this point
No fattrad.
Please read my first few statements. These are KNOWN facts. They are known now and they were known to the Sanford PD at the time.

Trayvon had committed no crime (and none had been reported that evening)
Trayvon was unarmed.
He was pursued by Zimmerman.
The dispatcher had told Zimmerman not to pursue.
They ended up in an altercation.
Zimmerman shot Trayvon dead.
Zimmerman had no official LEO capacity.

The only ifs concern the final face-off before Zimmerman shot Trayvon.

Oh,
And the Sanford Police didn't arrest Zimmerman even though they KNEW he had killed Trayvon; and they let Trayvon lie in the morgue for 3 days.

What you did or didn't do as a trained and deputized LEO is irrelevant.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
Zimmerman did have the right to walk up to Martin, and say something. Even if he had to follow Martin for a while to make contact.

You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida.

I still don't know why Zimmerman hasn't been charged with something.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
I have faith in your Riley! :)

They need to use Zimmerman as an example.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
Chaz
largely I agree with you.
You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida

Except your final conclusion "even if you are in Florida". Apparently you can, and in 19 other states.
Jorroh

climber
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
Lets face it, this is the sort of stuff that happens when you let an organization like the NRA write legislation.

tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
I see the problem is that my understanding of the stand your ground law is that it was written so that the average citizen that is being attacked by a thug and in fear for his or her life can use deadly force to protect themselves vs. having to flea.

As to Zimmerman, and others who for whatever reason are essentially looking for trouble, I don't think the law should apply. I consider a large percentage of police officers being insuficiently trained to be carying firearms. Security guards, neighborhood watch etc have IMHO no business carying firearms. Tazers and pepper spray with training, ok, but they should not have firearms.

To me the entire sad event really needs to be broken up and addressed in several ways.

First and foremost a family is grieving the sensless loss of their child, cut down in the prime of life. I can't imagine the grief they are going through, and turning it into a national media and political event is disgusting.

The second issue is whether or not there is any basis to claims of this being racially motivated. Unfortunatley I don't see how this issue can be accurately assessed and dealt with as it has blown up before the facts have been adressed.

Finally the stand your ground law, which I don't see getting a fair shake due to the racial overtones that have overwelmed supporting a grieving family and being able to investigate the case in an unbiased way to see whether or not Mr. Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
Jorroh nails it:

Lets face it, this is the sort of stuff that happens when you let an organization like the NRA write legislation.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
You know all those h-angels at Altamont were acting in self-defense too. F*ckin' coon had a gun didn't he? The neighborhood bullies rough up another black guy and he pulls his weapon out (in self-defense) and he ends up with a knife through his chest.

I looked at the Meredith Hunter entry on Wikipedia. Comparing him to Trevon Martin is quite a stretch...

(excerpt)
Fueled by LSD and large amounts of amphetamines, the crowd had also become antagonistic and unpredictable, attacking each other, the Angels, and the performers. By the time the Rolling Stones took stage in the early evening, the mood had taken a decidedly ugly turn as numerous fights began to erupt between Angels and crowd members and within the crowd itself. Projectiles started being thrown at the stage. The Angels retaliated by hurling back full cans of beer from their stockpile and swinging sawed-off weighted pool cues and motorcycle chains to drive the crowd farther back from the stage.

Lead singer Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones (who had already been punched by a concertgoer within seconds of emerging from his helicopter[4]) was visibly intimidated by the unruly situation, urging everyone to "Just be cool down in the front there, don't push around." Within a minute of starting their third song, "Sympathy for the Devil", a fight erupted in the front of the crowd, at the foot of the stage. After a lengthy pause and another appeal for calm, the band restarted "Sympathy" and continued their set with less incident until the start of "Under My Thumb". At this point, two of the Hell's Angels got into a scuffle with Hunter when he attempted to get onstage with other fans. One of the Hell's Angels grabbed Hunter's head, punched him, and chased him back into the crowd.

After a few seconds Hunter angrily returned to the front of the stage where, according to Gimme Shelter producer Porter Bibb, Hunter's girlfriend Patty Bredahoff found him and tearfully begged him to calm down and move farther back in the crowd with her. By her report he was enraged, irrational and "so high he could barely walk".[5] Rock Scully, who could see the audience clearly from the top of a truck by the stage, noticed Hunter clearly in the crowd, remembering, that “I saw what he was looking at, that he was crazy, he was on drugs, and that he had murderous intent. There was no doubt in my mind that he intended to do terrible harm to Mick or somebody in the Rolling Stones, or somebody on that stage."[6]

At this point, footage from the documentary shows Hunter (seen in the film in a lime-green suit) drawing a long-barreled black revolver from his jacket and pointing it in the air.[7] The film clearly shows a bright orange flash at the end of the pistol in one frame. Porter Bibb says it is impossible to determine whether the flash is a gunshot, a reflection, or something else.[8] The film then shows Hells Angel Alan Passaro, armed with a knife, running at Hunter from the side, parrying the gun with his left hand and stabbing him with his right. The footage was shot by Eric Saarinen who was on stage taking pictures of the crowd. Saarinen was unaware of having caught the incident on film. This was discovered more than a week later when rushes were screened in the New York offices of the Maysles Brothers.

In the film sequence, lasting about two seconds, a six-foot opening in the crowd appears, leaving Patty Bredahoff in the center. Hunter enters the opening from the left, his hand rises and the silhouette of a revolver is clearly seen against Bredahoff's bright crocheted dress. Passaro is seen entering from the right and delivering two stabs as he pushes Hunter off screen. The opening closes around Bredahoff. Passaro is reported to have stabbed Hunter five times in the upper back. Witnesses also reported Hunter was stomped on by several Hells Angels while he was on the ground. The gun was recovered and turned over to police. Hunter's autopsy later confirmed his girlfriend's report that he did have methamphetamine in his bloodstream at the time of his death.

Aftermath

Passaro was arrested and charged with murder for Meredith's death, but was acquitted on the grounds of self-defense after the jury viewed the footage from the concert showing Hunter drawing the revolver and pointing it in the air."
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
A wacko going off. No racial overtones. What's your point? Is there a controversial law involved?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
4000 black young men died violently last year.

The poverty pimps

nary a peep.


Didn't lead to a politically or financially productive narrative.

Same for a dead Christian.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
Why doesn't the gun lobby make a big deal about this? Try to make it easier to own/carry guns.

After all, if some were packin in that classroom, the shooter might have thought twice?

Makes about as much sense as your contrived argument.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
race, controversial law, upsurge of justifiable homocide incidents.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
chaz:
You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida.

The way Florida courts have been interpreting this law, you could shoot Tyson.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
TGT: out of 4000 young black men killed 3975 were killed by other black men. doehttp://www.supertopo.com/inc/postreply.php?topic_id=1780615&tn=540#snt that prove that blacks are racist against blacks WAY more often than whites are against blacks?

No, what that proves is you have major issues with logic.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:02am PT
Gary writes:

"The way Florida courts have been interpreting this law, you could shoot Tyson."


I'm not so sure, Gary. I see a clear distinction between standing your ground, and starting some sh#t. Based on how things escalated, and how things turned out, a reasonable person would have to say Zimmerman was the one starting some sh#t.

I'd bet the "stand your ground" law doesn't even apply here. At least I hope it doesn't. The guy who wrote the law thinks it doesn't apply here.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:50am PT
dr.f: do you believe the media or are you going to wait until the law decides?

manzanita man, pot.. kettle...

edit: manzanita man, my statement has nothing to do with what you wrote below...
.....




People's true colors are certainly here for all to read..






monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:07am PT
cultural identity
WBraun

climber
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:41am PT
I don't see anybody calling you names?

You weak ass shrub .....
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:06am PT
Anonymous Racist, I mean Malodorus Vegetation, I mean Manzanita man wrote:

im not a racist but i do hate stupid people. its just that the blacks do

stupid sh#t so often, it makes it look like racism.

LOL.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:14am PT
The fet, I wish i would of copied that post...before it was edited...


edit: and where in the sam hill are the pictures from the Bill Graham memorial??
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 3, 2012 - 09:53am PT
manzanita man, when on the 911 recording, Zimmerman called Martin a "f*#king coon", in your opinion, did that perhaps lead some to the conclusion that there might be racial component to this incident?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 3, 2012 - 11:13am PT
Nita, Pics are prints and 35mm negatives in our "projects" closet, along with 30 years of pre-digital photos that I haven't seen in 10+ years. I don't have a scanner at home. I'll check at work and see if I can do a color scan there. Thanks for the reminder :-)
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
manzanita man, when on the 911 recording, Zimmerman called Martin a "f*#king coon"

As I understand it, that's a contention, not a fact.

As a weird aspect to all of this, who actually uses "coon" as a racial epithet these days (no points awarded for saying "Zimmerman")?
I'd be interested in hearing whether anyone who knows him ever heard him use that word or one of a similar vintage.

I suppose every group has its own slang, but "coon" (in reference to black people, not the little animal) doesn't sound like a word that would come out of the mouth of anyone under about 50, even if they are racist. Maybe the slang is different in different places, I don't know.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
Blahblah, I actually know several people - many younger than I - who use that derogatory term. Clearly it was learned from older family members and tolerated in the communities in which they live.

Of course that proves nothing about Zimmerman, but I know youngins' to use such language. :/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
It isn't the killing of a black guy that's news.

It's that everyone knows who shot an unarmed guy and he doesn't even get arrested for it. "

That's news and different than the 4000 other murders

Peace

Karl
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
As a weird aspect to all of this, who actually uses "coon" as a racial epithet these days

Have you ever lived, or spent time in the deep south? As someone who is a descendant of north Georgia poor white trash, redneck racist stock on one side (my grandfather proudly displayed his KKK belt buckle and Lester Maddox signed "ni**er knocker" miniature axe handle in his doublewide), let me assure you that "coon" is still prominently in the lexicon.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
Have you ever lived, or spent time in the deep south? As someone who is a descendant of north Georgia poor white trash, redneck racist stock on one side (my grandfather proudly displayed his KKK belt buckle and Lester Maddox signed "ni**er knocker" miniature axe handle in his doublewide), let me assure you that "coon" is still prominently in the lexicon.

ha...Bruce K.. beat me to the repost.

ot... ..

Elcapinyoazz, i've hung with you at the facelift, and know you are a cool person/ good peeps..... Wondering how you and your grandfather... are so very different?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
Not just the grandfather, almost everyone on that side of the family including my birth father. Racial slurs were, and are, regularly used in those households.

Other side of the family was very different, parents divorced when I was a toddler and I lived with the sane side...still in GA though.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
Cajuns in LA are still called "coonasses" to this day.

AND?

No {Coonass, Vietnamese, Neighborhood Watcher} ever called me a n*gger?

EDIT:

Come to think of it, I did meet some in Aspen and they did refer to themselves as coonasses though they used the Arcadian pronunciation.

I just checked at Arcadian-Cajun.com and there is no mention of coonasses on that site.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
Are there that many cajuns in Los Angeles?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 3, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
Elcap and I have similar families apparently. :/
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 3, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
Just curious as this thread is titled stand your ground law, what would you think of this scenario?

An elderly black woman who carries a firearm with her for self protection. A white thug attacks her, and instead of hobbling off to the old folks home, she draws her gun and fires, killing the thug.

Is the law on it's face bad? Do you think she should have no legal backing to defend herself as she couldn't apply the castle doctrine? I'm thinking with Florida being one of the retirment capitals in our country, perhaps this was more the intent of the law.

Back to Trayvon, the problem is those with racial and antigun agendas have jumped on this case, and have made the job of the police to properly investigate the case, as well as the DA to prosecute it impartially extremely difficult.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 3, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
^ So right...

This is only hot news because if a political Agenda...

Race card can easily be played.
Gun card can easily be played.

Just way too much going on for the media to not get all d*ck hungry for.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 3, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
An elderly black woman who carries a firearm with her for self protection. A white thug attacks her, and instead of hobbling off to the old folks home, she draws her gun and fires, killing the thug.

She wouldn't need the "stand your ground" law to defend herself. She's still have a good self-defense claim.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
Tolman, in theory I have no problem at all with a stand your ground law if it is written in such a way that it is not a free license to blast anyone who gets your pantys in a bunch. As stated previously I can not run 2,495fps (wolf 122gr hp out of a chinese SKS) heck I can not even run 850fps=.45ACP. The problem with the FLA law is that it was written with some major loopholes and case precident has shown that it is very easy to get away with murder with this law.

There is absoultly NO REQUIREMENT TO PROVE THAT DEADLY FORCE WAS DIRECTED AT THE SHOOTER. All the shooter needs to do is state that THEY WERE AFRAID FOR THEIR LIFE and they can shoot any damn person they want for free. How would you feel if somone killed your child and then claimed they wrere afraid and they walked?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
have made the job of the police to properly investigate the case, as well as the DA to prosecute it impartially extremely difficult

Uh bro? Maybe you missed the part where the Popo and DA didn't investigate sh#t and considered it a closed case before the media storm started?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
Elcap. Not sure if that is one of my quotes or not though I do know that I have brought up that point several times. I was refering to case precident affecting prosecution on many levels. there is enough case precident for shooters walking that the prosecuters seem to give up pretty darn easy and both prosecutors and police cite case precident as their excuse for letting zimmerman go free.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Was quoting Tolman there Tradman, should have used the full sentence to avoid confusion, my bad.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
There is absoultly NO REQUIREMENT TO PROVE THAT DEADLY FORCE WAS DIRECTED AT THE SHOOTER. All the shooter needs to do is state that THEY WERE AFRAID FOR THEIR LIFE and they can shoot any damn person they want for free. How would you feel if somone killed your child and then claimed they wrere afraid and they walked?

Yo, that's not at all what the law says. It's been posted on this thread, and, in relevant part, it requires that the person claiming self defense "reasonably believes [the use of force including deadly force] is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

John E, who I'm sure is a nice guy and knowledgeable about lots of things, posted that it was his "understanding" that the law has been interpreted to be subjective.
I called him out on that, and challenged him to provide any support for his "understanding." That's the last we've heard from him on this thread.

So I'll repeat the challenge: anyone who wants to say that the Florida's SYG law allows you to use deadly force just because you, subjectively, are afraid of something, please explain your reasoning. If your reasoning is something like "that's what John E said" or "that's what CNN said some Florida chief of police said", that's fine, but let me assure you that's nothing close to an argument that would even be admissible in any court in the country, and is really infantile from a lawyer's perspective.



zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
Sanford Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival, told the Miami Herald that she met Zimmerman in September, 2011 at a community neighborhood watch presentation. Dorival stated that she gave a warning with respect to vigilante behavior at that meeting: “I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out,’ ” Dorival said. “‘Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about not being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”

The dispatcher recommended that he not take any action, and informed him that police were on the way. Zimmerman reported that Martin had started running. The dispatcher asked him if he was following Martin and he affirmed that he was. The dispatcher informed him that this was not necessary, saying, "We don't need you to do that."[69] Zimmerman affirmed "OK" and said he would meet the police by the mailboxes. However, before hanging up he changed his mind and said “Actually, could you have him call me, and I’ll tell him where I’m at?”[70]

2:07 minutes into the police call Zimmerman says "he's running". 2:37 into the call Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran". After he can't tell the dispatcher the address of his current location, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman for his apartment number. Zimmerman tells him the numbers of his street address and then at 3:35 adds "Oh crap, I don't want to give it all out. I don't know where this kid is". Zimmerman appears to hang up at the 4:05 mark, almost two minutes after the comment that Martin was running. The recording ends at 4:11

69.^ Clint Van Zandt, 911 calls released in deadly Florida shooting, MSNBC, Retrieved 2012-03-21.

70.^ Robles, Frances. "What is known, what isn’t about Trayvon Martin’s death - Trayvon Martin". MiamiHerald.com. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2725442_p2/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
anyone who wants to say that the Florida's SYG law allows you to use deadly force just because you, subjectively, are afraid of something, please explain your reasoning.

You already answered it. All beliefs are subjective.

"reasonably believes [the use of force including deadly force] is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:50pm PT

You already answered it. All beliefs are subjective.

Perhaps, but they're not all reasonable, which is what the law requires.
In other words, if you have a subjective, but unreasonable belief that force is required, you get no help from the SYG law. That reasonableness requirement is what imparts objectivity into the SYG law.

Thanks for at least paying attention.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Why was z-man carrying a gun? Most of us have gone to the store thousands of times and never needed to pack.

From what's been said so far, Martin committed no crime, yet in violation of the established (stated, re-iterated, sanctioned police) procedures, Martin was stalked by z-man. Clearly Martin had reason to fear for his life and would have been protected had he shot z-man with his ice tea. Martin's only bad in this was not to be carrying.

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
blahblah, google the law. You'll find plenty of instances supporting JohnE's take on this.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
@blah

Perhaps, but they're not all reasonable, which is what the law requires.

I'm sure if you ask z-man he'll say his were reasonable.

The law does not afford the authority to the police to determine reasonability. Therefore, z-man should have been arrested and the court system would be able to take a shot at deciding whether his actions were reasonable.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
As part of the jury instructions, the judge carefully explained the California laws that applied to self defense. I remember that the law was very generous toward the person defending themselves. For example it was OK to use disproportionate force and the person only needed to perceive a threat. The CA law and FL law have a lot in common

-which is why the Hell's Angel who stabbed Meridth Hunter to death at Altomont was acquitted.

Drawing a gun is no small threat...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
blahblah, google the law. You'll find plenty of instances supporting JohnE's take on this.

Gary, I don't need plenty, I need one from a Florida appellate court.
Got one? If not, while you of course are free to post whatever you want, as is John E, me, and the man on the moon, I'll just respectfully note that John E made an extraordinary claim regarding the Florida statute, which apparently you believe as well, but neither you nor John E have provided a shred of evidence to support your claim.

I'm sure I can use google to find support for cold fusion, perpetual motion machines, etc.
But I'm not the one making a claim here.
Either you got the proof or you don't.
Gene

climber
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
but let me assure you that's nothing close to an argument that would even be admissible in any court in the country, and is really infantile from a lawyer's perspective.

I think that all most folks want is that this event be placed before a jury in court so that the facts can be determined and a verdict made.

The problem, as I see it, is that the SYG legislation in many cases precludes a public airing of the event in a court of law. That's not good. Exoneration of a shooter based on his/her take of the situation should not stand without scrutiny.

g


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
The term "reasonable" is frequently used in statutes and judicial opinions. It almost never, if ever, means subjective reasonable belief. That would be nuts even by NRA standards

For better or worse, lots of states have these laws, including a similar statute in California.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
{The Myth of the Reasonable Man :: The Case of Fardell v. Potts: A. P. Herbert}
It is impossible to travel anywhere or to travel for long in that confusing forest of learned judgments which constitutes the Common Law of England without encountering the Reasonable Man. He is at every turn, an ever-present help in time of trouble, and his apparitions mark the road to equity and right. There has never been a problem, however difficult, which His Majesty’s judges have not in the end been able to resolve by asking themselves the simple question, ‘Was this or was it not the conduct of a reasonable man?’ and leaving that question to be answered by the jury.

I have called him a myth; and, in so far as there are few, if any, of his mind and temperament to be found in the ranks of living men, the title is well chosen. But it is a myth which rests upon solid and even, it may be, upon permanent foundations. The Reasonable Man is fed and kept alive by the most valued andenduring of our juridical institutions-the common jury.

Hateful as he must necessarily be to any ordinary citizen who privately considers him, it is a curious paradox that where two or three are gathered together in one place they will with one accord pretend an admiration for him; and, when they are gathered together in the formidable surroundings of a British jury, they are easily persuaded that they themselves are, each and generally, reasonable men.

Without stopping to consider how strange a chance it must have been that has picked fortuitously from a whole people no fewer than twelve examples of a species so rare, they immediately invest themselves with the attributes of the Reasonable Man, and are therefore at one with the Courts in their anxiety to support the tradition that such a being in fact exists Thus it is that while the Economic Man has under the stress of modern conditions almost wholly disappeared from view his Reasonable cousin has gained in power with every case in which he has figured.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
I am certainly not a lawer and not going to be able to tell you exactly what part of the law gets these people free. I did however read several storys on yahoo news that quoted Florida prosecuters and law enforcement personel saying how terrible the law is and that it makes it extreemly dificult to convict murders who use this defence. Also read from several sorces a stat where justifiable homicide more that trippled anually since the law was enacted. Does that mean there are more shootings or are there just more people succesfully useing this defense?

When I took my bodyguard classes and got my armed guard licence there was no debate period about shooting unarmed people. The instructors (state police)stressed over and over that the threat must be real, not precieved. The threat must also be in the present. Threats in the past even if that past is only 5 seconds ago do not count. Guy thretens you with a gun then lowers that gun and you shoot him while he was no longer threatening you and you go to jail.. the threat had to be iminent and real. I feel that the culprit in the FL law is probobly the word PRECIEVED. That word allows the threat to be not real but imaginary depending on your preception. The guy who shot his neighbor in FL over garbage bags shot him 10 ft from his front door. Unarmerd guy in a routine argument about how many garbage bags you are allowed on your lawn the armed neighbor blasts him with a 9mm and walks. No way in hell that flys in any northern state. Heard on the radio today that the highest rates of STD's teen pregnancys and crime are all in the southern/ Red states... Go figure............
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 3, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
tradmanclimbs said:
. The instructors (state police)stressed over and over that the threat must be real, not precieved. The threat must also be in the present. Threats in the past even if that past is only 5 seconds ago do not count. Guy thretens you with a gun then lowers that gun and you shoot him while he was no longer threatening you and you go to jail.. the threat had to be iminent and real.

this is exactly what I was taught in my State Concealed Carry Class, thank you

so, would not this also be the legal "intent" behind Florida's law to prosecute or not?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
ontheedge. FL law uses reasonable and precieved in the same sentance. Probobly that is where the problem lies as well as the FL courts interpretation of the statue.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
FL prosecuters and police have voiced conciderable concern that their law makes it too easy to get away with murder and the courts seem to have proven their point quite convinceingly.
Tobia

Social climber
GA
Apr 4, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
If you have ever spent time in Louisiana you might have noticed a few of these stickers on the bumpers or windows of pickup trucks:


BITD the stickers just had the RCA letters and mimicked the old RCA electronics logo; some things change.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 12:56am PT
@Tobia - well you're alot closer to Louisiana than most of us and from my limited experience coonasses (CoonAsses?) don't object to the term.

For the sake of this thread though a f*ckin' coon is not quite the same thing as a CoonAss.


Better call Santorum first, but wouldn't z-man have been justified in shooting this f*ckin coon who was raping his dog?






Tobia

Social climber
GA
Apr 5, 2012 - 06:15am PT
That's the emblem, zbrown. I haven't been to Louisiana in a coon's age. The last time I was there was to take my aunt home, 14 months after Katrina.

Prior to that I lived there for several years, (uptown) in the mid to late 70's and again in the early 80's working offshore but keeping a home-base in New Orleans. Working offshore we would embark and disembark from anywhere between Houma, LA and Corpus Christi, TX. Lots and lots of proud RCA's.

Another point, living in what is regarded as the "deep south" now, I haven't heard the racist term "coon" in many years; if I hear a derogatory reference to a black person it is usually the n-word.

On the other hand, I don't put myself in a position where racism is an issue; sometimes you can't avoid it. I am not of that mentality.

Locality is not synonymous with attitude.

I was raised in the era of segregation, when Lester Maddox was passing out his ax handles, "separate but equal" schools, waiting rooms, lunch counter rules, etc. I have witnessed it up close and personally.

Unbeknown to some people just because you were born in such an environment does not mean these beliefs are embedded in your genes.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 06:22am PT
Looks like the dog is likeing it....
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 5, 2012 - 08:52am PT
blahbla:
Gary, I don't need plenty, I need one from a Florida appellate court.

You'll have to do your own research, I'm really busy right now. The economy is picking up! And why do you think there has been an appeal? Would a person who's walked because of this law appeal the case?

I think this is why so many people are Republican voters. They prefer to be spoon fed their opinions, rather than forming their own based on their own analysis and research of what's going on. There are exceptions, of course, old school Republicans like JohnE. I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions, but you can see that he thinks for himself, and doesn't march in lock step with the Wall Street owned main stream media.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 5, 2012 - 10:08am PT

You'll have to do your own research, I'm really busy right now. The economy is picking up! And why do you think there has been an appeal? Would a person who's walked because of this law appeal the case?

I think this is why so many people are Republican voters. They prefer to be spoon fed their opinions, rather than forming their own based on their own analysis and research of what's going on. There are exceptions, of course, old school Republicans like JohnE. I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions, but you can see that he thinks for himself, and doesn't march in lock step with the Wall Street owned main stream media.

Gary--
I'm not a "Republican voter" in general, but I've formed an opinion that you and John E are full of it on this issue (whether the SYG would protect someone who has a subjective but unreasonable fear). My opinion is formed by reading the statute and keeping an open mind if anyone presents any evidence that the statute hasn't been interpreted according to what appears to be its "plain meaning."

How did you form your opinion?

Oh, and to answer your question about why there may be an appeal: a prosecutor should and likely would appeal a judge's determination that the SYG law protects people who claim self defense but have unreasonable fears. Prosecutors appeal judges' decisions all the time--what they cannot appeal is a jury's acquittal.

If you don't understand that appellate decisions are the basic way that laws are interpreted in the US, that's fine, but it shows you really don't know the first thing about how the legal system works. You may want to reconsider making snide remarks about the quality of other people's opinions.

Glad your business is picking up--I too have more lucrative ways of spending time than posting here, but hey you gotta have a non-climbing related hobby, right?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:57am PT
To get back off the topic, I hadn't heard "ace boon coon" used in a long time, but it's still around. These guys don't frequent the ST so here it is:

I think this covers about all the bases, even gots a "goon-ah" @ :22

Has anyone checked z-man's iPod?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
I would assume that Florida has some version of an "anti-stalking" law. It does.

California Penal Code Section 646.9 seems to require "repeatedly" and "maliciously"

Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly
follows or willfully and maliciously harasses another person and who
makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in
reasonable fear for his or her safety, or the safety of his or her
immediate family is guilty of the crime of stalking

Florida seems to be modeled upon California (the first in 1990) and includes pretty much the same language.

Florida’s law states in part that “any person who willfully,
maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another
person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place
that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury,
commits the offense of aggravated stalking.”

Now we need to see if these two qualifiers have been upheld in the courts.

Also, haven't seen how and why the investigator's recommendation that z-man be arrested and charged with manslaughter was over-ridden.

I imagine he's under order not to discuss it publicly, will be interesting to see what the special prosecutor comes up with.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 5, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
blahblah
Gary--
I'm not a "Republican voter" in general, but I've formed an opinion that you and John E are full of it on this issue (whether the SYG would protect someone who has a subjective but unreasonable fear). My opinion is formed by reading the statute and keeping an open mind if anyone presents any evidence that the statute hasn't been interpreted according to what appears to be its "plain meaning."

How did you form your opinion?

By reading some Florida papers reporting on court cases. How did you form your opinion?

If I had access to the Southern Reporter I'd try to see if there were any appeals. But I don't want to pay for access to it online, and my weekends are too busy to allow time to head to the law library. If you have any references to support your side, I'd be happy to read them. Really.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 5, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
Zimmerman aggressively stalks Martin because he is a racist-profiling-wannabe cop.

Martin stands his ground when confronted, according to "Stand Your Ground" law.

Zimmerman is getting his butt kicked by someone 100lbs lighter than him.

Zimmerman shoots and murders Martin, then claims self defense...

Instigation / Stalking should DEFINITELY be a limiting factor in the "Stand Your Ground" law.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 5, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
zBrown - Officially stalking requires repeated events. So there can be no legal action on the basis of stalking. BTW, most states use language provided by the feds such as you posted.

Still, this is not to say that it appears Zimmerman stalked (in the colloquial sense of the word) Trayvon.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 5, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Looks like Zimmerman may be going to Jail, now that the higher (grown) ups have gotten involved.

link?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 5, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
Gary,
You no longer need to head to the law library to find reported cases, check out
http://scholar.google.com/schhp?hl=en
Choose "legal opinions and journals," select "advanced search," and select Florida courts.
(For what it's worth, I am a lawyer and do lots of legal research with Google--it's not yet a complete replacement for paid databases, but it's got an incredible amount of useful content.)

I spent just a few minutes and didn't really see any cases on point, but I may not have come across them.

As I think I mentioned, I've formed by view on this by reading the statute and noting the word "reasonable" in the relevant section.
I freely admit to being skeptical and cynical, but I'm more inclined to rely on the statute than on a cop's characterization of it, or even a DA's for that matter.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 5, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
I don't know Dr. F. As much as I don't like what I've heard about Zimmerman's behavior (and who knows if what is in the media is complete or correct), he may not. The court has to work with the laws it is given. Time will tell.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
Officially stalking requires repeated events

@crimpergirl - What's your authority for this? Other than what I quoted about the law in CA and FL?

otherwise:

Why was the invesitgator's recommendation to arrest and charge z-man not followed?

Why was there no (or minimal) attempt to collect evidence?

Why was the call for an ambulance canceled?

Why the delay in notifying the parents of Martin's death?

In how many cases where "stand your ground" was employed as a defense was the defendant not arrested immediately?

Is there a case where stalking was deemed to have occurred even without it having been habitual or repeated?

Why are z-man's two lawyers unwilling to say even whether or not he was treated by a doctor, urgent care, or hospital for his injuries?

Why is the fact that z-man was counseled in about Sept. 2011 about not confronting anyone ignored?

Does z-man have a job? Does he carry his weapon to work? Why was he carrying a weapon when he asserts he was just going to the local store?

Is z-man licensed to carry a weapon? Was the license up-to-date?

Why are there attempts to ignore z-man's prior behavior? There is a strong possibility that it will be allowed if this makes it to trial. Possibly Martin's too. From what's available so far Martin doesn't and z-man does have a pattern of volatile, agressive behavior. The argument is that it goes to the state of mind of each individual at the time of the incident.

Isn't it true that z-man and OJ attended Neighborhood Watch Killers Bootcamp together in 2006?
...





Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 6, 2012 - 11:27am PT
blahblah, thanks for that link. I will check it out. Once in a while I research boundary law, and that'll come in handy.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 6, 2012 - 11:39am PT
@crimpergirl - What's your authority for this? Other than what I quoted about the law in CA and FL?

I'm a violent crime researcher and one of my areas of expertise is violence against women. A good part of that deals with stalking. I've been involved indirectly as these laws were being implemented so the elements of the crime are known to me (e.g., the repeated measure). As a researcher, having a clear definition - derived from the law - is necessary for measurement of the issue. I have published articles talking about estimates derived from this definition (what is good and bad about it). I lecture about it annually. I don't hold myself up to be the end-all be-all stalking expert, but I do know that stalking requires a "two or more times" aspect to it legally.

How people use the term in a day to day sense is likely different.

edit: Note the language in the definition you posted:

Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly
follows or willfully and maliciously harasses another person and who
makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in
reasonable fear for his or her safety, or the safety of his or her
immediate family is guilty of the crime of stalking

The 'repeatedly' part (meaning 2 or more times) is where the problem is imo. Zimmerman did not legally "stalk" Trayvon to the extent he did not follow him on two or more occasions.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 7, 2012 - 03:01am PT
@crimpergirl

Since you spend alot of time in this arena (most likely more than all of us on the thread combined), are you aware of any instance where stalking was deemed to have occurred based on one instance alone. For example, has anyone obtained a restraining order based on one occurrence of intimidating behavior?

I'm not questioning what you said, just what your comment was based upon. As I've looked into the California's statute, instituted in response to Ms. Saldana's stalking, it seems that other states derived their implementations from it. However, it seems that the language could have differed, and more importantly, judicial interpretation of the language, in other states.

I suppose it's time everybody has a look at what the Florida Law says, here an excerpt:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 8, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
Z - this gets a bit beyond my expertise. Maybe some attorneys can chime in. I know one could get a restraining order prior to the stalking laws for other reasons. I am uncertain how "intimidating behavior" is viewed legally. It'd be nice to hear others' thoughts on that.

Stalking in most places requires two + times plus other elements such as the victim feeling reasonable fear. If not, lots of mother-in-laws could be arrested for stalking. (hardy har har).

I wonder if legally there is something about 'hunting'. Based on the info we've heard (again, may be inaccurate and/or incomplete), it seems Zimmerman could be in trouble for a hunting type of behavior. Anyone?

Theresa Saldana's attack, and especially the murder of Rebecca Schaeffer by a stalker put stalking really on the map (and in the minds of policy makers). There is some great literature out there about the folks who were trying to get attention to stalking for some time before these event. It was after their attacks that it finally stuck. California led the way on this. The federal govt then offered language based on CA and many states adopted it. Please note that in the academic world, there are many who poo-poo the notion of stalking - view it as a socially constructed problem. Interested stuff.

Attorneys? Thoughts on Z's questions?

Also let me say that I am more familiar with the federal level of this stuff. Not so much the state level.

Hey, check this out: "Fourteen states may classify stalking as a felony upon first offense. Thirty-five states classify stalking
as a felony upon the second offense and/or when the crime involves aggravating factors" (from: http://www.ncvc.org/src/AGP.Net/Components/DocumentViewer/Download.aspxnz?DocumentID=41531);. As you noted earlier, FL is a 'repeated' states so someone has to do it repeatedly to technically stalk.

Wish I knew more Z. Interesting questions.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 9, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
Expect an arrest soon.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 9, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c3#/video/crime/2012/04/09/tsr-sylvester-man-beaten-baltimore.cnn

Too bad this guy was too drunk to stand his ground.
Where are the Black Panthers? Al Sharpton?
No outrage when a white guy with a $1300 watch gets beaten, robbed, and humiliated by a bunch of black people.


But when there is absolutely no evidence in a case where a 1/2 white man kills a black kid, they go ape-sh#t.

No i didn't use ape in a literal sense.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 9, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
^Thanks FAT. So there is possibly some judicial precedent for stalking to have occurred in a single act. Be interesting to know if the judge ever actually used the term stalking.

Kidding and arguing aside, it seems a tragedy that z-man did not follow the tenets of police recommended neighborhood watch procedure and just wait for them to arrive. I wonder why?

I'm curious if someone just got him aside and asked now, whether he'd say, yeah I wish I would have stayed in the truck like they to wanted me too.

^michaeld - good point. I watched it twice (you get a different anti-smoking message each time, sure glad I don't use 'em). Offends the hell out of me. It's a strange phenomenon, how one story take off (obviously this one wasnt' completely ignored since you have the link) and another doesn't. If I figure it out, I'll let everyone in on it after a make a billion dollars in advertizing consulting.



michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 9, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
Why would Treyvon hang up on his girlfriend if he got attacked?


I've heard conflicting stories where she said after the fact that she heard him get into an altercation with someone.

Then another where she said he'd call her back.... Which is it?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 9, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Everything you just posted is the confusion. There is no evidence. It's all opinions on what happened. What can ya do?

Go climb.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 9, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
It's clear now from mm's link that blacks will kill whites. Thanks.

No wonder Zman was afraid for his life. He was confronting a black kid.

Zman was just doing his part to even the score against blacks.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 9, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
Because Zimmerman called the guy a coon,

Except he never did.


He said it was "f*#king cold"

There's been a lot of irresponsible reporting on this case that should rise to the level of criminality.

Seems there's a huge market for
angertainment
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 9, 2012 - 09:59pm PT

He said it was "f*#king cold"

The latest was he said "punk" (not coon and not cold).

I feel slightly vindicated in my post way upthread to the effect of "who the heck says coon these days"? (A few people responded that the term is in current use in their families and I'm sure they're telling it like they see it, but I still got a little smug satisfaction when the enhanced audio shows he didn't say coon).

Re: posted link of people (who happened to be black) beating the hell of some some guy (who happened to be white), laughing and videoing it--didn't have anything to do with race, at least I didn't hear any suggestion from the newscasters that it did. Us simpletons need to be told when race is a factor in a crime (Zimmerman) and when it doesn't (Baltimore beating), because it's not totally obvious until someone tells you . . .
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 9, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
F*#king cold? Good time to put up the hoodie.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 9, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
that he followed him after

the dispatcher said that they dont need him to? how does that show racial

motivation? anyone?


good point, actually!

Yes, quite possible Zimmerman did not know the race of the adult looking person.

But, what Zimmerman DID know for sure was that he personally had a gun.

Zimmerman also knew that he could just turn around and LEAVE, but chose not to.

In fact, he was TOLD to let it go, "we don't need you to do that".


Instead, Zimmerman chose not to just simply get away, to leave the scene.

And if he would have, the kid would very probably still be alive.



zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 12:26am PT
at 6' tall and wearing a hoodie, he could have been any age.

at that time in feb., its dark. how does zman know that martin isnt armed?

he doesnt. that he followed him after

the dispatcher said that they dont need him to? how does that show racial

motivation? anyone?

He followed and got out of his truck against the expressed intent of the dispatcher and his prior indoctrination into the neighborhood watch program. Read above if you can't find it. If it had been a six foot tall unarmed white girl with a hoodie would he have killed her too. It was dark you know. Or do you? How much lighting is there on the path? Some folks are saying it's race related, it may or may not have been, still more than likely it was murder. He's getting away with it so far because of a bizarre law on the books in Florida. Take some time and read the law.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 10, 2012 - 01:22am PT
Some folks are saying it's race related, it may or may not have been, still more than likely it was murder. He's getting away with it so far because of a bizarre law on the books in Florida. Take some time and read the law

Your injunction to "take some time and read the law" is good advice--I've done that and don't see how the law changes the proper outcome of this case as compared to the laws in any other state (and many have laws similar to Florida's).

But that's all been hashed out. What's more interesting to me is your observation that "more than likely it was murder." I may or may not agree with that (I'd prefer to wait until the investigation is complete.) But if the strongest you can come up with is "more than likely," then he shouldn't in fact be charged with anything.

People charged with crimes must be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. You may feel it's significantly more likely that he's guilty, and even that the evidence against him is "clear and convincing," but that's not enough to get a conviction.

A consequence of our guilt beyond a reasonable doubt standard is that in some cases people who many of us think are guilty, and who probably are guilty to the extent such a thing can be objectively determined, will escape justice. That's just the way the system works--it's not perfect, but it's better than most of the alternatives!

Here's my crash course legal lesson of the day (and as always, there are exceptions, these are the general rules):
In civil cases, the party bringing the suit must prove the charges against the defendant by a mere "preponderance of the evidence," that is, anything even a smidge greater than 50%;
In criminal cases, the state must proves the charges "beyond a reasonable doubt" (which can't be quantified, but everyone would agree that it's something MUCH greater than 50%).

This knowledge may explain some seeming anomalies in the law, such as how OJ could have acquitted in his murder trial but found liable in the civil trial brought by the victims' families.

I would have liked to see someone try to get standing to represent Caylee Anothony (get appointed "next friend" or executor of her estate or something) and sue Casey for killing her!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 10, 2012 - 03:50am PT
here is an article for all you trayvon supporters. whos racist more?

http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html


Who's racist more? The guy who writes the captions...

Feral N*gger? Yeah.... Only in the south.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
I've done that and don't see how the law changes the proper outcome of this case

You've determined the proper outcome? You don't see how the law factors in?

People charged with crimes must be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. You may feel it's significantly more likely that he's guilty, and even that the evidence against him is "clear and convincing," but that's not enough to get a conviction.

Can't get anything either way without him being arrested, charged and tried. It is my opinion that he is "more than likely guilty", which I'm entitled to and which more than likely would keep me off the jury in Florida.

"Reasonable" is a horrendous legal myth, but it's in the law - read above.

I've done that and don't see how the law changes the proper outcome of this case as compared to the laws in any other state (and many have laws similar to Florida's).

Since you've read it, then you've probably observed that it's a horribly drafted law, whose language allows the self-defense assertion in a completely overly broad range of circumstances. Take a look through the literature and see where it has been invoked.

Which states' laws have you read in order to make the above comparison?

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 10, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Since you've read it, then you've probably observed that it's a horribly drafted law, whose language allows the self-defense assertion in a completely overly broad range of circumstances. Take a look through the literature and see where it has been invoked.

Which states' laws have you read in order to make the above comparison

Vermont's and Florida's specifically as related to this issue, and generally common law and "general" United State's law (things like miscellaneous cases from around the US, Model Penal Code for illustrative purposes) in law school.
Vermont's law may actually be more favorable to someone alleging self defense in this type of instance. Pretty funny VT case noting that a coward may have a greater right to use self defense that a person of normally bravery! You can't make that stuff up (and I'm not making it up).

The Florida law may well be horribly drafted, but no one on this thread (that I've seen, and I've followed it pretty closely) has been able to identify how any problems with it may apply to this case. (Lots of the law has to do with things like rights to self defense in vehicles and dwellings.)

Care to enlighten us? People like tradman will point out that they read something where a FL police chief or prosecutor said it's a bad law. That may well be true, but is entirely unpersuasive to anyone who knows anything about law.

And get the jargon right--if you're referring to cases (which are the only places where the law could actually be "invoked"), that's not referred to as "literature" in the legal world.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
^
I didn't realize this thread was in the "legal world". Folks invoke their constitutional right not to answer a question when they appear before a congressional committee. These clearly are not cases in the legal world or anywhere else. I've noticed that people weak in the ability to reason often lapse into jargon, or the defense of it's use, to cover over the deficieny.

In the real world two is not many (VT, FL).

I'm not gonna look it up, but I'm sure you can find where the police "invoked" the law as their justification for not arresting zman.

I'll repeat it:

Can't get anything either way without him being arrested, charged and tried.


Re-read section 776.041 which describes when the defense will not be allowed. None of these determinations is specified to be made by the police, they are determinations that must be made at the time of the trial, after the arrest.

EDIT: Out of curiosity I surveyed 3 successful attorneys (all top of the class Stanford Law grads, and one who clerked for a Federal judge. None found the use of the term literature offensive or incorrect when referring to legal writings.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Apr 10, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
So here is how this works- NRA for better or worse gets no retreat law passed. Local DA/Police chief have "close" call under that law. 99.9% of arrests and prosecutions concern people who are undeniably guilty. The DA and police chief are politicians. Arrest and and attempt to prosecute zimmerman = huge fight with NRA funded defense. Lose and you are probably out of a job. Easy answer.

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 10, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
The saddest part (other than the death of the young man) of this event, is that it will make it clear to everyone in a state with similar laws that all they have to do in order to kill people they don't like is catch them alone.

No witnesses = "I was in fear for my life." = No legal proceedings.

And where does that lead? To an endless chain of murder and counter-murder.

Something Mr. Zimmerman is no doubt thinking about now.

It reminds me of a murder that happened in Vancouver about twenty years ago. A friend of mine was the lead detective on the case, which went to trial, and which featured incontrovertible evidence of the killer's guilt. But the verdict was "Not guilty." I think either the police or the prosecutor's office made an error somewhere along the way, and some of the evidence was ruled inadmissible, and the guy walked.

I commented to Robb the next day that he must be pretty upset at seeing justice denied on a technicality, but he just laughed and said something like "Nah. He'll be dead in a week. He'd have been safer in jail."

And so it turned out. Shot dead within a few days of walking out of the courtroom. And this was in peace-loving Canada, not the US where every second person is packing.

Seems to me that this law gives anybody who doesn't like you the ability to kill you and walk away unworried - as long as they catch you alone.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 10, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
No one here really knows what happened and much of the press coverage has been "angertainment" and completely speculative when it hasn't been intentionally misleading.

To start with the "gated community" is a rather ordinary high density condo / apartment complex with 60% minority residents.

The only time line I've heard from anyone with even second hand knowledge (interview with Zimmerman's father so there's obviously a bias, but just about all of this would be verifiable in an investigation.) goes like this.

Zimmerman is on his way out of the complex to go grocery shopping (not patrolling) when he sees someone, not a resident, prowling around units that had been previously robbed multiple times.

Z calls cops and begins following Martin

M ducks down a walkway between units and Z looses sight of him.

Z is driving down the parking side of the complex and stops to walk to the other side of the complex down a transverse walkway to get an address off the other side for the cops. Still hasn't seen M since he first disappears

On the way back to his car M comes up the walk between units and approaches Z saying "you got a problem"

Z replies "no I don't have a problem"

M punches Z, knocks him down and starts pounding on him.

Z pulls his pistol and shoots M.


If those are the facts, there shouldn't be any charges. The "Stand Your Ground" law would have no bearing on the case at all.
The forensics would show contact powder burns on W's clothing and body
Eyewitnesses saw M on top of Z and Z screaming.

Pure self defense and all Z's statements checked out.

It may be as simple as that.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 10, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
What's W stand for?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 10, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
"W" stands for "Martin".
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 10, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
fixed it
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 10, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
We'll never know who escalated to a physical altercation, since no one saw that. Powder residue, present or not, can be explained away as well.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
^aaah-ha! 'roid rage - maybe? Too bad they didn't see fit to do some blood collection on z-man that night, despite doing it on Martin's body.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
Zimmerman is on his way out of the complex to go grocery shopping (not patrolling)

I've asked this before. Even if you're licensed and inclined to like your guns, how often do you pack when going up to the grocery store. Not that the gun just happened to be in the truck, he's wearing in a holster on his belt. Right?

he sees someone, not a resident, prowling

TGT this little narrative is bullsh#t. Why waste time posting it?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 10, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
from zBrown:
I'm not gonna look it up, but I'm sure you can find where the police "invoked" the law as their justification for not arresting zman.

Well, since the Florida SYG law sets forth the law of self-defense Florida, yeah, that would be the reason why no charges have been brought against Zimmerman. Duhh.

The issue is whether charges would have been brought under previous FL law, i.e., does the FL SYG law make any difference in this case. Did the police ever say anything about that? You "sure"?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 10, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
TGT this little narrative is bullsh#t. Why waste time posting it?

And what evidence do you have that the one you have bought into isn't as well?

Like "angertainment"?

Everyone involved in this has an axe to grind and the MSM have already been caught in several fabrications.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:28am PT
blacks commit 50x more hate crimes against whites than whites do against blacks.

now there's some factual reporting.

edit-The New Nation is your source of facts? that's f*#king hilarious. are you LEB?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:39am PT
This is where MM reinforces his world view:

http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html

Hey MM, the 50x link goes nowhere. What a dumbass.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:50am PT
FYI, crime is not necessarily hate crime.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:55am PT
The last full report of the NCVS was issued in 1994.

hmmm kinda antiquated info for an annual report. got anything from this century? oh yeah The New Nation. Thanks for the laughs...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:57am PT
where's the link to your proof?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 12:22pm PT

And what evidence do you have that the one you have bought into isn't as well?

Like "angertainment"?


Wasn't me.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Well, since the Florida SYG law sets forth the law of self-defense Florida, yeah, that would be the reason why no charges have been brought against Zimmerman. Duhh.

The issue is whether charges would have been brought under previous FL law, i.e., does the FL SYG law make any difference in this case. Did the police ever say anything about that? You "sure"?

You're the one who said it couldnt' be invoked, except in a case. So was it invoked here - duh, duh, blah blah

You mentioned law school, so I’m wondering if you actually have a law license. If you do, it’s a real testament to the demand for your skills (or more appropriately lack thereof) as an attorney that you do so much of your “legal work” pro bono on the SuperTopo forum.

Don't bother to reply, it's very boring chatting with you. I can talk to real attorneys anytime I desire.


michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/11/prosecutor-to-announce-decision-on-zimmerman/?hpt=hp_c1
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
this is from the justice dpartment.

The best and most complete evidence comes from the Justice Department. Its annual National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) canvasses a representative sample of about 80,000 Americans, from roughly 43,000 households. From this survey, a picture of crime is painted by its victims. The last full report of the NCVS was issued in 1994. From it we learn that blacks committed 1,600,951 violent crimes against whites. In the same year, whites committed 165,345 such offenses against blacks. Despite being only 13 percent of the population, blacks committed more than 90 percent of the violent interracial crime. Less than 15 percent of these had robbery as a motive. The rest were assaults and rapes.

The NCVS has been ongoing since 1972/73. Reports using it published by the Justice Department have also continued until the present. The statement that the last full report was published in 1994 is a puzzling one. I think they may be referring to an online report that stopped for a while (stopped in 1995) due to a lack of personnel.

And here is a 'full report' from 2007 (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus07.pdf);.

Still, the numbers reported in the quote do not strike me as accurate. I'd like to see where that was taken from. Also, one must know that the NCVS collects rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault and simple assault in terms of 'violent crimes.' About 2/3 of all violent crimes are simple assaults.

Also, the data collection is not antiquated, but is instead a data collection effort that has been the model used across the globe.

And as noted, violent crime is no necessarily a 'hate crime'. Yes, some in the general population call all crimes a hate crime. I wonder if they call terrorism just regular crime too? Hate crime has a specific meaning.

And, not surprising, the NCVS has been used to offer a report on hate crimes in the United States. The most recent is here: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/hc0309.pdf. Those interested in the race of the victim may want to check out Table 9.

BTW, the NCVS is my specialty. Happy to answer any other questions about it and crime data in general.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
Time to lawyer up Zimmie...again, I guess since the other pair of lawyers split:

"NBC News is now reporting that George Zimmerman – the Sanford, Florida neighborhood watch supervisor who shot Trayvon Martin – will be charged in connection with the shooting. The Washington Post also reported that Zimmerman will be charged. Zimmerman’s lawyers on Tuesday withdrew their counsel in the case.



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
Well, it looks like Zimmerman will be charged after all. I hope justice prevails.

John
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
^ ^ ^
But how can that be, when Zimmerman has the protection of the FL SYG law?

Quick, we need all the ST legal experts (maybe zBrown and his crack team of consultants) to get on it. Time for a literature search!
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
Yeah blah. Touched a nerve huh? Your check is in the mail and it's small, commensurate with your contribution and ability. Let us know if have trouble finding your way to the mailbox. We'll get someone over there to help you.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
Murder 2 and he is in custody.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
That special-prosecutor woman is a joke!

She claims the authorities acted quickly, even though they waited a month-and-a-half to do anything.

Most murder suspects are arrested at the moment they're identified and located, with charges coming no less than 72 hours later. At least the ones around here are. They're a good bit slower in Florida.


Is tonight's Riot at the Fruitvale BART Station still on?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
Wonder what Zimmerman's attorney is going to use as his defense: suffering from PTSD: resulting from intensely frightening, disturbing, shocking, painful and/or life-threatening situations.

Did he have PTSD before he shot or after?
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
Its impossible that fat old George Zimmerman could ever run and catch
17 yr old football player Trayvon Martin and start a fist fight.

While speedy Trayvon easily ran and caught waddling George and started the fight. And while pounding Georges head on the ground, he sees the gun, reaches for it, misses, and pays the ultimate price.




michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
Just gotta wait for the evidence to come out . . .
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
There won't be any more evidence about who escalated to physical confrontation. Nobody else saw it.

Doesn't matter that Martin was on top at some point, if he did not start the escalation, he's entitled to defend himself.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
It shouldn't matter how badly Zimmerman was injured because Martin was fighting for his life.

Apparently, Zimmerman wasn't wounded badly enough. Maybe if Martin had been more violent, he'd still be with us.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
What Fattrad said.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
"Unless you've been in law enforcement or a criminal prosecutor, you have no idea how difficult it is to investigate a difficult homicide case"

Yeah, especially if you don't start the damn investigation until a month and media shitstorm later.

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
If they brought charges they probably have a good case. But I believe in innocent until proven guilty so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

The cries for help on the 911 call sounded to me like a teenager. Zimmerman claims it was him. One of the fist things I heard from the prosecutor was she was going to have the voice analyzed. Some independent voice analysts said it wasn't Z. If Zimmerman got caught in a lie there he f*#ked up big time. Also Z's story to me sounds fishy. Why is T going to attack him out of nowhere, it doesn't make sense.

As I said I'm not condemning Z yet. What he said could be true. I'm glad this is going to trial. But the limited evidence I've read so far and the charges being filed lead me to believe he confronted T, a fight started, and he shot him. His actions also portray a man saddled with guilt, which he probably wouldn't have if things went down like he said they did.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
Expert witnesses can be bought quite easily. It may be a battle of expert witnesses and proof beyond a reasonable doubt for 12 people will be tough.
Gene

climber
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
Let both sides bring it on in front of a judge and jury. Let the judge referee and the jury decide. That's how it should work. Good move.

g
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
We'll see if it even goes to trial. I do look forward to hearing more information.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
All the Martin's wanted was an arrest...

They didn't specify a conviction...

Kind of stupid in my opinion. They need someone to take the downfall.

Were they there? No.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Possibly, murder 2 was filed, to get a manslaughter plea later. Seems risky. Why not manslaughter to start?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
What's going to happen if this turns into an innocent verdict say around September?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
"Race" riots.

Kinda like when you call a hooker a whore and she says "f*#k you"...
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
Black on white riots. Lead by Al Sharpton, reinforced by the Black Panthers.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Yepp.....

But hey, it adds to the intensity right?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
"Unless you've been in law enforcement or a criminal prosecutor, you have no idea how difficult it is to investigate a difficult homicide case"

Just like you can't know that cancer is bad unless you've had it I guess.


zBrown,

You don't know anything.

But I did say it was most likely murder and your law enforcement gal in the trenches above agrees. Good guess huh? Dumbass.

When you get some free time put together a dosier on how it is that you know so much. Most everyone that I read around here seems to agree that you know nothing and are stupid to boot. The closest thing I can think of that matches you is Beavis having a conversation with Butthead.





Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 12, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Affidavit of Probable Cause has been posted:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.affidavit.pdf?hpt=hp_t1