Florida stand Your ground law?

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tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 20, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
What are your thoughts on this? I find it pretty effin disturbing in the way it seems to be implemented? Sounds like a loophole where anyone can claim they were afraid as justification for killing someone. It seems to have removed the whole thing where you have to prove that a life was actually in iminent danger and that the perp had the means and intentions to take a life. In Fla it seems that all you have to say is that you were afraid so you wasted him in self defense..

In the recent Zimmerman case you have a wanna be cop who could not make the force due to being Rejected roaming the streets armed looking for troubble. He spots a victim, stalks that victim and kills him then claimes he was afraid for his life? WTF
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
Terrible law. Castle Doctrine are understandable. This though? Not good.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
"Stand your ground" doesn't apply here.

There's a difference between standing your ground, and looking for trouble.

This Zimmermann guy was looking for trouble.

I don't know why he hasn't been arrested
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
You should post the text of the law itself, very disturbing. As I read it, if the shooter isn't convicted of criminal charges, then the family can't even bring a wrongful death suit in civil court.

And yeah, Zimmerman murdered that kid. Unreal that he isn't in custody.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
You can make a case for the dead teen to be in fear of his life and allowed to use deadly force against his killer, but you can bet he would be in jail now if he did. The stand your ground law should not apply here. Zimmerman was told by 911 not to pursue. So terribly sad.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
Read one piece today that outlined a few other instances in FL similarly troubling where the shooter also wasn't arrested based on this law. Scary stuff. I bet Texas is happy having the focus taken off of them. :/
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
the whole thing makes me sick..
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
From: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

The 2011 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

View Entire Chapter
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
History.—s. 1, ch. 2005-27.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 20, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
Here's some from further down the legal text (sec 776.032, (3))

"(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1). "

So they essentially immunize the guy against civil suit if they don't prosecute on the criminal side.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
#3 is the loophole. the presumed to be in iminent danger part is way to vauge. Anyone can presume anything.. Seems like FL has no interest in checking the facts to see if there was actually a real threat to human life VS a Precieved threat.

Put this in climbing terms; Anyone who precieves that a route is dangerous may add as many bolts as nessicary to make said route safe. There would be G rated 5.5 crack climbs getting retro bolted by some pansy assed wanker who precieved them to be dangerous....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 06:14am PT
Ron, it seems like people are able to say that they were afraid for their life without haveing to prove that their life was actually in real jeprody. Precieved danger vs actual danger are very often two entirely different things.

How would you feel if one of your unarmed children was killed by a hair trigger pansy assed wimp just because that wimp was afraid? how would you feel if the shooter walked?

Without language in there that killers need to prove that they were actualy in real danger it seems like a licence to murder? Anyone can precieve any damn thing they want regardless of the reality of the situation and the cops won't touch it because the shooter will walk as long as they say they precieved danger?

It is precisly crap like this that makes me feel that the NRA are a bunch of cluless whack jobs.
I have no problem with a stand your ground law as long as you can prove that the person you shot #1 had the means to kill you or other innocent person. #2 had the intent to kill. Without the requirement of proof that there was actual danger = the means to kill and the intent to kill the law is literaly a licence to kill anyone you want as long as you say you were afraid of them. That is certainly how the law seems to be interpreted in FL if you read some of the previous cases.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 06:45am PT
Reily. they have bunch of other cases down there in FL that had not made the mainstream news.. Its the words (Precieved danger) that creates the loophole.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:16am PT
Can't find it now, but gangsters have been let off the hook after shoot outs due to this law. By the law, once a person claims they acted in self-defense, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. And as this case proves so far, you can pursue someone and then kill them if they turn on you. The law states you only have to believe you're threatened:
:776.012 Use of force in defense of person. — A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/19/3501457/floridas-self-defense-law-complicates.html
The state self-defense law eliminated a citizen's duty to retreat before using deadly force to confront an attacker. Police and prosecutors statewide have said the the law fosters a shoot-first, ask-questions-later mentality.

The law includes a provision that grants "immunity" from prosecution or civil lawsuits if a person is deemed to have acted in self-defense, though lawmakers did not clearly specify exactly who bestows the immunity.

After a series of court battles across the state, the Florida Supreme Court in December 2010 ruled that judges should be the ones to consider evidence under a looser standard than the familiar "beyond a reasonable doubt" one used before juries in criminal cases.

Since then, South Florida judges have dismissed charges in several murder cases in which defendants sought immunity based on the law.

Last month, however, Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Milton Hirsch denied the immunity claim of a Florida International University student who stabbed an unarmed football player to death during a brawl.

The law "does not justify the use of deadly force in response to threats or shows of force of any and ever kind. In ordinary circumstances a push or a slap may be met with a push or a slap, or perhaps a punch - but not with a bullet," Hirsch said.

Miami-Dade defense attorney Jeffrey Weiner, who recently had a murder case thrown out by a judge on self-defense grounds, said: "The shooter must be able to point out, preferably with witnesses, that he wasn't just seeking vigilante justice."

Still, legal experts say Zimmerman, if arrested, would probably be charged with manslaughter, not murder - and would have a strong defense under Florida's law, with a judge needing to decide first whether he is immune from prosecution.

"I think absolutely this is a case that squarely falls within the Stand Your Ground immunity statute," said defense attorney Bill Matthewman. "Even if he shouldn't have been following 1/8Martin3/8 he's not committing a crime and he can stand his ground."


This just in from Indiana. Senate Bill 1:
"Self defense. Specifies that a person may use reasonable force against any other person in certain circumstances. Provides that a person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to: (1) protect the person or a third person from unlawful force; (2) prevent or terminate the public servant's unlawful entry into the person's dwelling; or (3) prevent or terminate the public servant's criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession. Specifies that a person is not justified in using force against a public servant if: (1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime; (2) the person provokes action by the public servant with intent to injure the public servant; (3) the person has entered into combat with the public servant or is the initial aggressor; or (4) the person reasonably believes the public servant is acting lawfully or is engaged in the lawful execution of the public servant's official duties. Provides that a person is not justified in using deadly force against a public servant whom the person knows or reasonably should know is a public servant unless: (1) the person reasonably believes that the public servant is acting unlawfully or is not engaged in the execution of the public servant's official duties; and (2) the force is reasonably necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person."
Lightenin'

Gym climber
Muleshoeville
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:27am PT
Seems entirely reasonable to me. If someone is forceably entering my house or car I'm gonna be afraid for my life. If I had a gun, I wouldn't think twice about it. If I am elsewhere and someone attacks me, I'm gonna be afraid in that situation, too. People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:32am PT
You can shoot someone if you BELIEVE they are going to attempt to harm you.

There is a difference.
Lightenin'

Gym climber
Muleshoeville
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:37am PT
The way I read it is says you have to be attacked or someone has to be entering. That says to me that there has had to have been overt behavior by someone else. I may have missed it, but don't see belief?
WBraun

climber
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:47am PT
The way all laws are set up in the world are:

You can shoot anyone anytime you want anywhere.

You just have to make sure you do it right ...... :-)
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:50am PT
I think that regardless of the self-defense issue, any time someone kills someone else, they should be locked up that minute. There needs to be a period of time when the cops can investigate the incident so that they can determine if the shooter is completely nuts and likely to run around killing more people. Maybe it's cool to let someone go a few hours later but they should have initially treated this like a murder until there was any evidence at all either way.

The fact that the victim was unarmed and going about his lawful business seems like enough reason to throw out the self-defense claim immediately. There should be no "I'm a pansy with a gun and got myself into this situation because I'm an ass" defense!

It would suck for the victim but society may have been better off if this guy found another gun and killed another person a few hours later. That would have gotten rid of this concept of going scot-free after a shooting.

Dave
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

Many readers have asked whether, given the 911 recordings, a case against Zimmerman would be easier than most homicides in which "self-defense" is cited by a defendant. In Florida, the answer probably is no: The courts' interpretation of the stand-your-ground law has been extremely broad—so broad that, to win an acquittal, a defendant doesn't even have to prove self-defense, only argue for it, while to win a conviction the prosecution has to prove that self-defense was impossible.

Numerous cases have set the precedent in Florida, with the courts arguing that the law "does not require defendant to prove self-defense to any standard measuring assurance of truth, exigency, near certainty, or even mere probability; defendant's only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable." When a defendant claims self-defense, "the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense." In other words the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt never shifts from the prosecution, so it's surprisingly easy to evade prosecution by claiming self-defense.

This has led to some stunning verdicts in the state. In Tallahassee in 2008, two rival gangs engaged in a neighborhood shootout, and a 15-year-old African American male was killed in the crossfire. The three defendants all either were acquitted or had their cases dismissed, because the defense successfully argued they were defending themselves under the "stand your ground" law. The state attorney in Tallahassee, Willie Meggs, was beside himself. "Basically this law has put us in the posture that our citizens can go out into the streets and have a gun fight and the dead person is buried and the survivor of the gun fight is immune from prosecution," he said at the time.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Mar 21, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
It is worth noting that there has been more than a two-fold increase in "justifiable homicides" in Florida since the law went into effect. Most places "justifiable homicide" is a very rare determination (unless it's cops doing the shooting--a whole 'nother story)but it now seems to be pretty routine in Florida. The law in every state, including Florida pre-"stand your ground" allows the use of force, even deadly force, in self-defense in certain strictly-defined circumstances. By enacting this vast expansion of pre-existing law Florida (and probably some other states as well?) has effectively given a license to kill to armed yohos like Zimmerman--and there are plenty of others like him out there (and maybe even a few on here).
Barbarian

Trad climber
New and Bionic too!
Mar 21, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
I'm afraid for my safety with laws like this on the books. What are the implications of that?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Heinlein predicted it. The world gets more and more dangerous.
Being out in public puts you at risk.

Lock yourselves in. Work from home. Order food.

Climb in your dreams...





My prediction;
Zimmerman gets convicted of violating the civil rights of the kid in federal court, then gets taken to the cleaners in civil court but the victim's family never collects half.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
I'm afraid for my safety with laws like this on the books. What are the implications of that?

When "stand your ground" laws are combined with more and more concealed carry laws, the implications are pretty clear.

If somebody gives you a dirty look on the street, you can just cap their ass. You believed they were a threat. They might be carrying, after all.

I once knew a group of NRA and CRPA competition shooters. When they were all sitting around together, the main topic of conversation was hoping somebody would screw with them on the street. They were all drooling to plug somebody. Now these new laws are bringing paradise to their door.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
Thanks, Gary, for the clarification. The broad interpretation of the "fear" defense makes the law's application irrational, if not immoral. It sickens me to think that a Zimmerman can escape prosecution, much less, As El Cap points out, that he's potentially even insulated from civil liability. I wonder if federal Civil Rights legislation applies. That would at least trump the immunity from civil suits.

In contrast, I think someone inside a dwelling or a car has every right to believe he or she is in imminent danger of great bodily harm if someone else is trying to enter forcibly. People entering forcibly should have to overcome a very high burden of proof to show that an occupant used unreasonable force. Frankly, a law like Florida's seems, to me, perfectly justified if confined to forcible entry of occupied dwellings or cars, or walking into your home and finding an intruder. The Zimmerman situation, however, looks like a travesty right out of the worst days of the post-Reconstruction South.

John

Edit: Piton Ron, I see you beat me to it.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
In contrast, I think someone inside a dwelling or a car has every right to believe he or she is in imminent danger of great bodily harm if someone else is trying to enter forcibly.

You betcha. John, your a professional, how do you think this will evolve?

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
Gary,

There have been plenty of civil cases in which an intruder has sued the homeowner for excessive force. In most places, there's no presumption or immunity to help the homeowner. The intruder usually loses, but so does the homeowner, because the allegations require an expensive defense, and there is no "loser pays" shifting of attorney's fees.

Contrast that with the booby-trap cases. For example, an owner of a seldom-used cabin rigs a spring gun while he or she is absent. Intruder opens the door and gets shot. The homeowner loses in that situation, because he or she was not at bodily risk.

The real problem with the Florida law is section (3) which, as you point out, basically allows violence whenever and wherever you feel like it. If one Zimmerman-type killed another Zimmerman-type, that would just be Darwinian promotion of natural selection. When, on the other hand, Zimmerman kills a completely innocent victim . . . I don't even need to finish the sentence. The unspeakable injustice is obvious.

John
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 21, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
The state attorney in Tallahassee, Willie Meggs, was beside himself. "Basically this law has put us in the posture that our citizens can go out into the streets and have a gun fight and the dead person is buried and the survivor of the gun fight is immune from prosecution," he said at the time.

This law favors whoever is the fastest to draw and shoot, so long as is able to shoot to kill. Dead men tell no tales.

This law is good, if are a killer.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
How fast would the guy have gone to jail if he was black and shot a white kid?

There are some freaking ignorant SOB's overseeing the application of our laws in some of these places. His ass should be in jail until he can prove he was in danger. He F-ing killed an unarmed kid on a public street for Buddhas sake!

I lived in Georgia for a while and love the South for the most part, but some of them haven't joined the 21st century yet.

Pretty soon some will bust a cap on you for flipping them off.

They should fence off part of Texas for people that want to believe they still live in the Wild West. They can carry in the open and kill eachother for any percieved insult.

BTW - If someone breaks into my house, they better see me first. I don't have a gun, but I have a pretty sharp samurai sword and won't hesitate to remove the threat or portions there of.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
Sean Connery's line in The Untouchables comes to mind when I hear somebody boast of their ability with a hand held edged weapon.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Yep. Not a boast though. It is all I have ;-)

Haven't heard of too many people getting accidentally killed with sword.

Just a personal choice.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Fattrad,

I remember. I lived in LA during the peak of the road rage shootings.

I remember a movie with Steve Martin (I think the programable freeway signs were talking to him) where he told the passenger "Cover me, I am going to change lanes".

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 21, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
There have been numerous cases in So. Calif. of shots fired over getting flipped off on the freeway.

The difference, fattrad, is that in Florida, and the other states that are adapting this, the shooter will get off. A car is a deadly weapon, after all.

The Indiana law is interesting, too. You can plug "public servants" entering your house. The Republicans that passed it say it won't do what it says, but...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 21, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
In Cal they shoot for flipping the bird but in Florida they don't bother flipping off drivers because they are mostly octogenerians who can't see to begin with.

You might not be safe from pistolero vigilantes walking around the neighborhood but the roads are worse!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 22, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
You says that he is following Trayvon and then at 2:18 mutters "f*#king coons." You can clearly hear it.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2012/03/22/probably_a_bad_idea_to_mutter_a_racial_slur_on_a_911_call.html

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/florida-shooting-focuses-attention-on-stand-your-ground-law/

Trevor Dooley stood his ground, brandished his gun and killed a man after an argument over local skateboarding rules in a Florida town.

He argued in court last month that he had a right to do so under the state’s Stand Your Ground law...

...the law is currently being invoked as a key defense by Mr. Dooley.

The man he killed, David James, had been playing basketball with his 8-year-old daughter in September 2010 when he and Mr. Dooley began arguing over whether a boy on a skateboard had a right to ride on the court, according to an account in The St. Petersburg Times. There was a “physical confrontation,” the police said, during which Mr. Dooley fired the weapon he was carrying, killing Mr. James in front of his daughter.

“You agree you do not want to go to prison for killing David James?” he was asked at the trial, according to televised footage from the courtroom.

“I don’t think I should,” responded Mr. Dooley, who has been charged with manslaughter but says he feared for his life during the altercation with Mr. James.

His lawyers are seeking to have the case dismissed by a judge on the grounds that the Stand Your Ground law permitted him to defend himself with deadly force...

...Q: Can an unarmed person legally pose a deadly threat?

In case after case during the past six years, Floridians who shot and killed unarmed opponents have not been prosecuted. Former National Rifle Association President Marion Hammer, a major force behind the law’s passage, cited her own size and age in 2006 interview with the Sentinel about what she would do if confronted by a younger and larger aggressor.

“I’m 4-foot-11. I’m 67 years old,” she said. “If you came at me, and I felt that my life was in danger or that I was going to be injured, I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot you.”
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
I changed my mind...Let's fence off Florida instead of Texas.

In recent times, "stand your ground" laws extended this concept in many states beyond the home to any place where a person might lawfully be found, such as a bar or a public sidewalk. Florida's version enacted in 2005 (over the objection of many in law enforcement) is one of the most far reaching.
The law states that a person "who is attacked" anywhere he is lawfully present has "no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."
Importantly, a person cannot invoke this provision if he is "engaged in unlawful activity" or "initially provokes the use of force against himself." Finally, in Florida, once self-defense becomes an issue at trial, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense -- a heavy burden.

Read more: http://www.wxii12.com/news/30728543/detail.html#ixzz1pspnyytD

"reasonably believes"...wow...there is something that is not open to intepretation.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
How does one claim to be attacked, when he's the one doing the attacking?

This law doesn't apply here.

I don't understand why this guy hasn't been arrested.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Mar 22, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
This case presents the road-map for any would-be murderers in Florida: simply make sure your victim isn't around to contradict you.

At best, it's vagueness will obstruct or deter prosecution of actual criminals, at worst, this law and the coverage of this case could achieve the real intent of the NRA who proposed it; even more gun sales.

TE



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
again the real huge loophole is in #3 he or she precieves the threat of grave bodily harm. Seems like any good lawer can get you off the hook with that preception clause.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Something most of the tacos can agree upon!

It's a terrible law.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
Yep, the taco agrees on two things- North Dakota sucks and you should not be able gun people down for no reason.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
I believe in Draw first....

If you feel threatened, you should be able to draw and hold them for a LEO to come. Obviously if they pull something on you or keep coming at you or your property or persons, then you use force. If they run, well, still call a LEO or get the heck out of there.

It's all circumstantial of course. I honestly think Zimmerman knew what he was doing when he called the cops. I was another way in his mind of justification. He should be charged with 1st degree murder. It was premeditated as soon as he called. Why else would he have continued if the cop told him to stop following him?

I don't believe everyone should be able to own a gun, or carry one. There's nothing practical you can really do about it... But if I know dangerous people out there are carrying, i'd feel much better carrying.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
LOL Ron, the Florida law is way different from most states that do not have a 'stand your ground' law like California. In CA if you have an alternative to deadly force, like not stalking your victim as Zimmerman did, you are required to use it.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
"Officer, all I had was my phone, and my wasr-4. I was on the phone with you guys while the guy was coming into my window with his pistol first."


This whole racial debate is pissing me off more than the law. Who cares what the guy's race is? Oh, he's white. It must be racist. NO! He's Mexican, Mexicans aren't racist!

Does anyone know where the young kid was shot on the body? Chest? Back? Head?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
Ron, you are a sick man. And I am a gun owner and former IPSC shooter.
There is a HUGE difference between a precieved threat and an actual threat. Any paranoid wanna be gunfighter can precieve a threat from just about anyone. If there is an actual iminenet threat as in the perp has both the intention and the MEANS to snuff you I am all for giveing the perp a dirt nap. Shooting people just because you are afraid of them is pathetic.
You pop someone because you are a pussy with an itchy trigger finger and that gun turns out to be a cell phone you deserve to do serious long term hard time.
Gene

climber
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence. State alcohol agents said Zimmerman pushed them while they were arresting a friend of his during an underage drinking operation at a bar. Zimmerman avoided a conviction by going into a pretrial program that is offered to people with no prior arrests.
http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/246445/19/George-Zimmerman-shooter-in-Trayvon-Martin-case

This guy had a concealed carry permit? Habitual 911 caller? Packing heat as a Neighborhood Watch guy?

He sounds like a guy who might feel his life was threatened by his own shadow. Told not to follow Trayvon but did anyway? Whacked the kid. Something is very wrong here. The FL law, the concealed carry permit, the whatever…

Now, what did Trayvon do to merit his early demise? Remind me.

Sheesh!

g
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Actually TMC, there is an important element of the law most non-attorneys ignore.

To commit a "crime" the perpetrator must have criminal intent.
If Ron is downtown and a teenager flashes what turns out to be an airsoft gun tucked in his pants.
Ron perceives a threat, verbal or physical.
Shoots the stupid kid.

He hasn't committed a crime because there was no mens rea (criminal intent).
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
Ron, you are a sick man. And I am a gun owner and former IPSC shooter.
There is a HUGE difference between a precieved threat and an actual threat. Any paranoid wanna be gunfighter can precieve a threat from just about anyone. If there is an actual iminenet threat as in the perp has both the intention and the MEANS to snuff you I am all for giveing the perp a dirt nap. Shooting people just because you are afraid of them is pathetic.
You pop someone because you are a pussy with an itchy trigger finger and that gun turns out to be a cell phone you deserve to do serious long term hard time.

I read the law and don't see the problem with it. It only applies when the person claiming the benefit of it "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
Deciding what's "reasonable" is a huge part of lots of legal concepts and generally comes down to a jury decision (or a judge decision if the judge decides that a "reasonable" (there's that word again) jury could only see the facts one way. (But a judge cannot enter a conviction in a criminal case, no matter what the facts are.)

It's possible I'm overlooking something and the law is as bad as you all say, but it seems to me that the problem isn't with the law because most (or all) of us don't think what the shooter did was "reasonable," and so the law shouldn't even apply.

As an aside, if ElCap thinks the law means you can't successfully bring a wrongful death action if criminal charges aren't brought (or aren't successful), I believe he's mistaken.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
I have been reading every news story that pops up on yahoo the last few days concerning this issue and there are numerous refrences to AG,s and LEO's saying that they can not prosecute many of the bad shootings simply because the shooter has all the cards stacked in his favor.. the justifiable homicide rate has trippled since the enactment of the law.

Most people will probobly accept that pointing a fake gun at someone during an altrication is a good way to get a dirt nap... when that threat turns out to be imaginary in the form of a bag of skittles or a cell phone then you do need to be held accountable for your actions INMOP..
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
Give him life in jail with no possibility of parole. How the f*ck do you mix up a cup of tea and bag of skittles for anything other than those? Zimmerman could plead insanity, for whatever liberalistic bullshit reason, but he should still get life in prison nonetheless.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Ron, all the pros are saying the FL law is full of loopholes that let bad shooters off the hook. They are saying that the FL law gives the armed citizen much less restrictions than even law enforecement. That is bad juju INMOP.
laughingman

Mountain climber
Seattle WA
Mar 22, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
This tragility cements my theory it is impossible to be young Africa American Male and walk down the street safely in many towns in america without being labeled a threat.
Gene

climber
Mar 22, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
BYOB - Black Youth Out of Bounds.

So sad.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 22, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
I'd say this law is not working out.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
Well I don't want to be on the wrong side of a lawful gun owner who makes a mistake. & it happens a lot.
And as in Florida this case was not look into properly!!!!

As many aren't.

10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:19am PT
zimmerman is a wack job. he called 911 forty six consecutive times claiming he was in danger.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:09am PT
Does anyone know where the young kid was shot on the body? Chest? Back? Head?

Chest.


As for the racism angle, CNN did a clean up of the 911 audio and it's pretty clear that the shooter says "these f*#king coons, they always get away" during the call. Unless you believe the man was suddenly confronted by a family of racoons fleeing up a palm tree, I don't see any compelling reason to believe that race wasn't an issue.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 08:49am PT
The law, approved under former Governor Jeb Bush after a big push by pro-gun advocates led by the National Rifle Association, was passed over numerous objections from the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association and state law enforcement officials. Florida's Republican governor, Rick Scott, announced the formation of a task force on Thursday to "thoroughly review" the law in the wake of the Martin shooting.

"Basically it's a law that fixed something that wasn't broken, and then it created a lot of problems," said William "Willie" Meggs, veteran state attorney for the 2nd Judicial Circuit in Tallahassee, the Florida capital.

Republican State Representative Dennis Baxley, one of the authors of the Stand Your Ground law, said it did not protect people who pursued and confronted their victims, as occurred in Sanford, according to lawyers for the parents of the dead teenager.

"That's where he (Zimmerman) stepped out on thin ice away from protection of this statute," he said.

Defending Stand Your Ground, Baxley said that while errors may occur, such as the death of Martin, it was important that the law err on the side of those who fear they are facing "a perceived" threat.

"That's good public policy. I think we have a good statute and I would hate to lose anything in it that protects people from harm. It saves lives," Baxley added. End quote.

This line is what really gets under my skin!

"it was important that the law err on the side of those who fear they are facing "a perceived" threat."

Really! those who fear they are faceing a precieved threat? what a bunch of trigger happy repuglican pansy assed whimps! heck I have stood down and diffused REAL threats, Not PRECIEVED threats without ever haveing to seriously hurt anyone. These tools are simply looking for an excuse to shoot someone.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:41am PT
As an individual who works as a trial lawyer, I am highly dubious of any recording (or photograph) that has been "cleaned up"--as there is no real distinction between "cleaning up" and "manipulating". So while, Zimmerman may well have said those words--and probably did--I still can't put too much weight on them for legal purposes. However, in this case, we really don't have to, as Zimmerman's other words and actions clearly show that this was a racially-motivated intentional murder. In his first 911 that evening, he specifically, and unnecessarily mentions Mr. Martin's race, and describes that factor as being one of the reasons that he is suspicious of him. That is followed by his total disregard of the dispatcher's instructions not to follow Mr. Martin. But most disturbing of all is the part of the last call before the fatal confrontation that doesn't require any enhancing. His tone, his staccato way of speaking, and his noticeable breathing are all indicative of someone on the hunt and about to move in for the kill---extremely chilling.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:16am PT
there is no real distinction between "cleaning up" and "manipulating"

While I agree with you that it's not likely to make it in as evidence, I disagree with the above quote. There is a very clear distinction. Using simple band pass filters outside the frequency of the human voice to filter out line noise/static/etc is in no way "manipulation".
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Cold blooded murder!

And the PD are totally spineless and corrupt...
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:58am PT
Elcap--While that may be true, unless you did it yourself, how can you be certain that was the procedure followed by CNN and not some further "enhancing"? While I've had less experience with "sound", I have personally seen a number of supposedly "cleaned-up" digital images that were in fact "altered"--it is amazing what changing a few pixels can do!!!! My main point is, however, that the portions of Zimmerman's calls that didn't require any "clean-up" are damning in themselves--let alone his history of multiple prior unnecessary 911s.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:26am PT
I feel threatened by the NRA may I shoot NRA members?

I was once a member. I left the NRA because it is one of the most corrupt business around.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
what a bunch of trigger happy repuglican pansy assed whimps!

Hey, who are you calling repuglican?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Them florida gunslingers.. The ones who passed the law and those who use it to hunt people.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
I left the NRA because it is one of the most corrupt business around

+1
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Seems entirely reasonable to me. If someone is forceably entering my house or car I'm gonna be afraid for my life. If I had a gun, I wouldn't think twice about it. If I am elsewhere and someone attacks me, I'm gonna be afraid in that situation, too. People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?

Agreed
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
Hopefully the Feds will come in and prosecute this jackass and send him to prison for most of the rest of his life.

It's not a Federal Gov't issue (and Obama should keep his mouth shut). Murder, manslaughter etc occur every day and they are for the most part investigated by local authorities/jurisdictions.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Actually if there is a racial/civil rights issue, it IS a fed issue. Secondly, you seem to have missed the fact that this wasn't inside someone's house, that the killer chased and accosted the kid, and the local DA/PD have not done a damn thing to investigate. They didn't even ID the kid for several days despite his cell phone being there.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Dave, unless or until it is considered a "hate crime" or something of the sorts, I don't see the "civil right violation" in this case.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:51pm PT

Yep, this kid had a hoodie on because it was raining, and skittles in his pocket...be very afraid.

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/22/149126015/a-moms-advice-to-her-young-black-sons

ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
Sounds like Voluntary Manslaughter. If the Feds were to "rightly" get involved, it would be with investigating the LEOs in charge. But since this is starting to get political they will get involved and more spin about gun restrictions and racial dividing will occur.

It's a tragic thing that happened to this young fellow and his family.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
this brochure is clear about the use of deadly force:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/forms/P-00090-DeadlyForce-0911.pdf


it's not a bad law; i don't think there's anything in it that's disagreeable (what's bad is that it needs to be spelled out)

i doubt zimmerman can be charged with murder; likely manslaughter, but a conviction may be difficult because the only witness is dead--who can prove that zimmerman did not fear for his life?


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
I don't think there will be a need to prove anything about whether he feared for his life.

The law as written indicates that the shooter would have to be in a place he was legally entitled to be, and it appears he was in someone's yard, not his own, which I assume would be trespassing.

Seems to me the SYG law doesn't apply in this case, and therefore fear for his life is not a factor. I wonder what a jury will think about his claiming fear for his life when he got out of his car, chased the kid, accosted him, and outweighed him by about 100lb. If I'm on that jury, I ain't buying it.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
I stand by my prediction.

Civil rights is civil rights. There doesn't have to be a hate crime act, but in this case it sure sounds like there WAS.
Gene

climber
Mar 23, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
who can prove that zimmerman did not fear for his life?

The issue is whether Zimmerman had a reasonable fear that his life was in danger. Did he have options that would not have resulted in Trayvon’s death while maintaing his own (Zimmerman's) security? Was he told to butt out by 911? Did he? Were his actions reasonable? Let a jury decide.

g
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Mar 23, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
bookworm said,
who can prove that zimmerman did not fear for his life?

Besides all the other above information...More information the police knew the day of the shooting....Two witnesses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cWwUAbbWnk&feature=related

Two more..

This one is creepy, you can hear the kid yelling for help several times.....then the gun goes off...I feel sick after listening to this. It made me cry thinking about how scared the kid was...no one helped, and the police disregarded the witnesses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc&feature=related
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
Sounds like Voluntary Manslaughter. If the Feds were to "rightly" get involved, it would be with investigating the LEOs in charge. But since this is starting to get political they will get involved and more spin about gun restrictions and racial dividing will occur.

The issue is neither gun restrictions nor racial dividing per se, although the latter is certainly involved. If the races of shooter and shootee were reversed, would there still be no prosecution? Nonetheless, that's only part of the issue.

The Civil Rights Act has enabled prosecutions and civil actions for homocides and violence that could not have taken place under state laws. When an American is deprived of a basic right (i.e. life) because of conflicting state laws, the federal government has a legitimate federal interest, according to the 14th Amendment.

Also, this does not appear to be manslaughter, although I could see a jury reaching that conclusion. To me, Zimmerman's actions demonstrated malice aforethought, which differentiates manslaughter from murder.

One other comment: One of the particularly bizarre things about the Florida law concerns its burden of proof in a civil suit. Normally, the plaintiff's burden is a perponderance of the evidence. By making the criminal case control the civil case, it transforms the plaintiff's burden to one of beyond a reasonable doubt.

John
WBraun

climber
Mar 23, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Geraldo Rivera blames hoodie for Trayvon's death on Fox.

Don't be wearin gangsta clothing he's implying ......
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
local news is reporting the following:

zimmerman's face was bloodied

the screaming on the 911 call is zimmerman

witness who called 911 told police on the scene that he saw "a man in white" on top of and punching "a man in red": martin was wearing white, zimmerman was wearing red

Gene

climber
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
Bookworm,

Links? Sources? Thanks.

g

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
If Zimmerman IS in fact proven that it was self defense, the whole race on race issue is just gonna do a backflip and turn around onto those making a big deal of it...

And Al Sharpton will most likely go home.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?

The irony is this statement is just too much.

Premise: we need to be civil to one another. Exception: But, if we're not, the person asking for civility has the right to shoot and kill the person who allegedly acting uncivil.

That'll teach you to act civil.

This law is proof that the patients are running asylum. Need further proof? Bookworm thinks it's a good law.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
I suspect that in the old days when overtly carrying a deadly weapon was deemed acceptable that people actually were a bit more civil as the consequences for not doing so could be immediate and severe.

We have become a defiant rude self-righteous culture.
Urizen

Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
Thanks, Ron. I've been both puzzled and amused over the years by old novels (like those by Walter Scott), full of guys swaggering around armed to the teeth and yet careful to address each other so formally as, "Gentlemen," "Brave knights," or "Cavaliers." You explained it in one sentence.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
Seems like one eyewitness statementsupports Zimmerman's position and the other one's writen statement does as well.




Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt.

That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old Austin stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

"I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' "

It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground.

The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said.

"When I heard the shot, the screaming stopped," he said.

He then rushed inside and told his sister to call police.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315_1_robert-zimmerman-letter-unarmed-black-teenager

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
There are some parallels to the Tawana Brawley case in the political mob response going on here.
I would say that that example is a poor comparison. Tawana Brawley claimed to be a victim of violence from white supremicists (sp?) to explain her failure to return home by curfew. She inflicted some minor injuries on herself to support her story.

The victim here is DEAD. Moreover, that person may not see any justice given a poorly thought out, poorly drafted law that was heavily supported by a very powerful special interest group and which appears to create a presumption that the person perpetrating the violence was within his or her rights to do so.

The only comparison between the two scenarios I see is that people are proactively rallying around the person they most identify with.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Lets assume they really did have some sort of fight, we still don't know.

One had a gun and other did not.

Why would the one with a gun "fear for his life", as the law apparently requires to act?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
That's an interesting way to look at it DMT.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
Changing nothing about the original event, except reversing the races of the two individuals, and this whole thing would be on no one's radar.
I'm not sure why you would make that statement since I don't believe it's reasonable that anyone would subscribe to that view.

If an armed loser (allegedly) stalked and killed an unarmed individual and was not arrested given a new, controversial law, there would most certainly be a firestorm over the event. Imagine that the stalker were a down on his luck African American and the victim were a blonded headed teenager from a good family. You honestly don't believe that scenario would register on any kind of current events radar?

Edit: BTW, I don't disagree with the view that there are people who will mine such events for political gain, sadly, but don't be naive enough to believe that it will be limited to liberals and African-Americans.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
the kid was getting stalked, he was trying to run away and hide. that is all pretty darn clear from the texts from his phone. Zimmerman caugt up to him and they had a fight that zimmerman instigated by chaseing the kid. Fight does not go zimmermans way so the pussy pulls a gun and kills the kid. Zimmerman still instigated the whole situation.

If you carry heat you have an obligation to stay out of troubble because ANY physical confrontation you find yourself in is deadly simply because you have that gun on your person. Any physical fight that you do not finish in a knockout quickly will most likly end up being a struggle for your gun if the fight goes to ground. That puts the responsibility to stay out of fights on the CWP carrier. That is what I was taught in the armed guard Courrier class that I took.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that the guy's name is Zimmerman?
I mean, WTF?
The guy is hispanic. You could even say race is not an issue because he is swarthy skinned, BUT THEN HE GOES AND SAYS "COONS" AND HAS THE NAME ZIMMERMAN.

Crazy world.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
Well crafted caveat to keep me from calling you on your BS.


But damned if I won't fight for your right to be wacky as long as you still help people.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Zimmerman?

Yeah even Bob Dylan didn't like the name. This guy shoulda changed it before he went out gunning for coons.

This reminds me of all those "sports" out there who with a pack of dogs, several guns, a tracker and no balls go out and slaughter the innocent aninals walking the earth and grin about it, like they're some way macho dudes.

If Z-man had any fortitude he'd a put down his gat and had a fist fight with the kid. Likewise, those other guys. Why don't they arm up with a knife and go out fight a fair fight with a mountain lion.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
And f*#k guns and this idiotic gun culture..
You need a gun you are a scared pussy..
A real man will still take it away from you and shove it up your a*# anyway...
Maybe that is why ya all need more than one...
But it will never be enough if you are a scared little bitch like this killer.

This is where you lose me, and make me believe you are most likely mentally handicap in some way shape or form.

Who's the real man who's going to take my gun from me? The guy who is breaking into my house?



The "I don't have a gun because i'm not a pussy" scenario.
So I hear a person come up my stairs, okay. Then I hear them break my window. Okay. Then they come in and kill me. Okay.



The "I don't have a gun but holy sh*t i'm scared, I'm gonna tell him I do" scenario.
So I hear a person come up my stairs, okay. Then I hear them break my window. Okay "I GOT A GUN AND I'm NUH-NUH-NOT AFRAID TO USE IT!". He pulls out his gun. They come in and kill me. Okay.

The "I'm a pussy because I own a firearm to protect myself and my property" scenario.
So I hear a person come up my stairs, okay. Then I hear them break m window. Okay *grabs gun and posts behind wall, waits for them to get into a position where they CAN'T draw a gun without me shooting first*, Announces I have a gun and to freeze.

Well, from here, it's in the person breaking into my hands. If he's not a pussy, he's gonna get arrested. If he is a pussy, he's gonna get shot.


Yeah, I guess those pussy gun owners are pussies...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Ron,

His father is white, mother Peruvian.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
+1 for Reiley.
I was standing in line once to get my Hunting licence. This fat slob repuglican NRA wanker gleefully proclaims to his fat kid. " the killing starts tomorrow"

Totally disgusted me.. No honor or respect for the deer giving its life to feed his family just a need to make up for his small penis by killing whatever he can. Pathetic.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
I thought the incident at hand here occurred out on the street not in Z-man's house.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
I was standing in line once to get my Hunting licence. This fat slob repuglican NRA wanker gleefully proclaims to his fat kid. " the killing starts tomorrow"

Totally disgusted me.. No honor or respect for the deer giving its life to feed his family just a need to make up for his small penis by killing whatever he can. Pathetic.

He most likely shot the dear in the head, exclaimed "BOOM HEADSHOT!", packed up the deer, then went home and on the way ate McDonalds.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin?cid=PROD-redesign-right-next
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
I thought the incident at hand here occurred out on the street not in Z-man's house.

If this is referring to my post, I think Zimmerman should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for 1st Degree murder if it's proven it wasn't self defense.

If it is self defense, he should be charged with criminal negligence and obstruction of justice.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
There are lots of brave folks who travel in extreemly hairy circles unarmed. some make it and some don't but no questioning their cajones... Most of the folks who carry probobly do not need to. makes em feel safe or bad assed or whatever but they precieve a threat that is mostly imaginary. Some who carry do have legit reasons. The most legit reason you can find is if you are involved in any kind of domestic issues. You can guard money your whole life and never need a gun but spend 1 day protecting a woman who has just left a bad relationship and you better be ready to roll!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
You can guard money your whole life and never need a gun but spend 1 day protecting a woman who has just left a bad relationship and you better be ready to roll!

Wouldn't that make you a paranoid pussy in Riley's eyes? Carrying a gun to stop a man from beating up or killing a woman.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Pretty sure wht Riley is getting at is that a large percentage of the gun toteing crowd are makeing up for personal issues by empowering themselfs with guns. In short, they are cowards. Simeler to those who drill their way up climbs that braver men hike in their approach shoes.

There are legit reasons to carry and protecting domestic abuse victims is certainally one of them. It is best to wear a uniform as well as pack heat when doing that kind of work. The uniform helps keep the ex from thinking you are the new BF.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/nbc-obtains-george-zimmerman-voice-mail-28712026.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
If a gun is involved it is always, always bad!
Escalation, anger, wounds, death....

And how is it different with sharp pointy objects or heavy blunt ones?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Michaelb or what ever your name is..

Are you that illiterate you can't tell the difference between a d and a b?

Do you know your A,B,C's? The difference between left and right?


With your story, it's really hard to understand what the hell you're talking about. It just seems like a bunch of rambling back and forth between guns being okay and bad. Make up your mind, or speak literate.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Dude, when you go to post you do not see the previous page so unless you copy and paste the persons name from up thread it is easy to mispell it.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
Excuses for everything here huh?

He's black.
He's white.
He's 100 lbs heavier.
He's 6'2 football player.
He had a gun.
He attacked first.
That's him screaming.
His face is bleeding.

Was anyone there on this website to clear the facts up? Stop jumping to conclusions.

Regardless - There is a dead guy, and the guy who killed him is free, and that set's a lot of people off.

Zimmerman should have NOT followed him as closely to cause suspicion by the "perp" aka Martin.

He should have listened to the police when they said to stop following. With that alone he should be charged with Obstruction of Justice.

People are going to play the race card, there is NOTHING you can do about it. It sucks. It happens. Who knows if it is what drove Zimmerman to judge Martin, most likely given the phone recordings and his heightened sense of paranoia from "them" and "F*cking c...ns." Who really knows?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
Wouldn't expect anything else from repuglicans ;)
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
ahh, check out my post history, no lurker and not a liberal. I am a red neck gun owner who had to split from the repuglicans when they lost their minds and turned into a bumch of frothing at the mouth mean spirited lunatics with newt at the helm. You guys lost me back when newt went after Clinton for haveing an affair while newt was haveing an affair.... decided that voteing single issue (Gun rights) was insane and I had to look at the whole picture.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
Ron,

His father is white, mother Peruvian.

So that means Zimmerman's hispanic, right?
I mean, Obama's black, no?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
Zimmerman should have NOT followed him as closely to cause suspicion by the "perp" aka Martin.

It's been said before, but bears repeating, you are insane.


Martin "perpetrated" the crimes of being black and wearing a hoodie, while some punk tracked and shot him, because he was too much a wimp to do anything else. GFY mikeb.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:43am PT
Geraldo Rivera blames hoodie for Trayvon's death on Fox.

Don't be wearin gangsta clothing he's implying ......

Edit: Joseph and Mary picture keeps disappearing.
Sacrilege?

F*ck Geraldo. F*ck all those folks who are trying to blame the kid.

My wife teaches at a very expensive to attend Catholic High School and everybody wears a hoodie. Mary and Joseph wore 'em. Bob Dylan wears a hoodie, I wear one, and I bet alot of folks who visit this website wear one. F*ck Geraldo, he should know better. F*ckin' Al Capone wore one and if Geraldo would have found him back in Chicago would he have shot him too.

Edit 2:

I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin's death as much as George Zimmerman was


What the f*ck kind of convoluted reasoning is this?

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 06:03am PT
Thanks Jim and Reily.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that ocasionaly someone comes along who realy needs a good arse whooping. Sometimes if they get that arse whooping they turn into a better person. Not always but often it works. One of lifes great lessons.
Zimmerman seems like one of those guys. He stalks the kid, chases him causeing a confrontation that perhaps he was loseing. Instead of taking his whooping like a man and learning from it he wimps out and shoots the kid. Pathetic case of bully cowardice. It is just as pathetic and cowardly that some of the hard core Repuglicans try to defend his behavior.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 24, 2012 - 11:14am PT
He spots a victim, stalks that victim and kills him then claimes he was afraid for his life? WTF


Instead of taking his whooping like a man and learning from it he wimps out and shoots the kid.


I'll bet there's at least one more twist to the story before it's over.




monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 24, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
Ron, even the 'stand your ground' authors say the law does not apply here. Stalking someone and creating a confrontation is not 'standing your ground'.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
Why did the po'lice not arrest Z-man? The knews mentioned him possibly being an informant or having some kinda cozy deal going on. Did anyone check his house for a meth lab?

You read it here:

http://themoxiesophic.com/2012/03/16/is-george-zimmerman-a-police-informant/
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
Mar 24, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
zBrown,

That is what I was alluding to back a few pages on this thread when I commented something to the effect that the PD(PoPo's)were negligent and should be held accountable in regards to their lack of action!

The dude is an out and out racist. He steriotyped the youth and had a cold blooded death wish coursing through his mind and viens. "They always get away...F*#kin Coons!" He made a decision at that point, and followed through with it. He became the judge, jury and executioner point blank.

And the F'n cops...how pathetic!!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Ron. people are up in arms about a lot more than one case. It took this caSE to spotlight the flaws in the law but there have been many bad shootings that have walked due to the law. I have absolutly no problem with a stand your ground law. heck i think you should be allowed to fire and manuver, outflank the perp and take em down fron behind provideing they are armed and and have started a gunfight. i feel very strongly however that you should NOT be allowed to shoot anyone simply because you are afraid of them.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
I feel this law better demonstrates that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. They had a reasonable idea in that I can not run 2495fps therefor I should be able to shoot the perp with the AK rather than try to run away from him. They ended up with a law that allows you to kill unarmed people simply because you are afraid of them.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 25, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
this guy has more capacity to judge life threats than punk Z-man. Shouldn't he be licensed to kill too?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
Thats it, I am never going on a climbing trip to Florida ever again. God I am going to miss those walls!
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
The Florida law flies in the face of a fundamental principle of law enforcement and public safety. Flight is the option that experts recommend in most situations, as it is less likely to result in serious injury or death, as opposed to standing and fighting.

If you are in your home and feel threatened, you can rightfully use your gun to defend yourself, but what if the thief has a more powerful gun, a flak vest and is better trained at close range shooting than you?

You are still better off running out the back door and letting the guy take what he wants. If you want to play Rambo, go ahead, but you are risking your precious life for some silly property of some sort.

Zimmerman was evidently given proper advice by law enforcement, but failed to follow it, and the results were a tragic loss of life.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
It ain't the place that is weird it is the people.

I love beaches, reefs, sailing, canoeing, swamps, airboats, rum drinks, and hot women in bikinis.
(definitely not in that order)

The climbing potential is pretty non-existent but if you need to heal a tendon sheath anyway,..
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 25, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
Dr. F,

you refer to a ban on assault rifles.

Could you please define "assault rifle", and tell me specifically what "ban" you are referring to?





(I said "please")
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 26, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
zimmerman's friend--a black man--interviewed on fox:

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/03/26/video-zimmerman-friend-calls-for-patience-in-investigation/
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Here's another relevant piece from the NY Times that some of you may have missed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/opinion/floridas-disastrous-self-defense-law.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share

It's written by the former Miami chief of police who, along with many other chief of police in Florida, signed a letter opposing the passage of Stand Your Ground when the law was discussed in legislature. It's nice that the guns nuts see fit to ignore the advice of those persons actually in charge of our public safety. I guess they will argue that the police are just another sign of unnecessary big government.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 26, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
I wonder how different this story would be treated by the media if the kid had killed Zimmerman. After all, the kid was being followed, that can feel pretty threatening.

The fact that Zimmerman was following the kid, despite the pleadings of the 911 dispatcher, makes it difficult to claim he was standing his ground.


Here is an odd twist to this story- http://www.ajc.com/news/new-black-panthers-offer-1398575.html
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 26, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
Ok people pay attention here is the case in a nut shell for you arm chair lawyers.

Zimmerman was following the kid. Told to stop following by 911 dispatch. Continued to follow the kid.

He was not standing his ground he was provoking the kid to act and when he did he shot and killed him.

Zimmerman is going to prison and he will get a plea deal but he will be going to prison and this stand your ground law will be repealed.

If Zimmerman is going to prison, that must mean that the the "stand your ground law" doesn't immunize him from prosecution.
So what's the problem with the law?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
If Zimmerman is going to prison, that must mean that the the "stand your ground law" doesn't immunize him from prosecution.
So what's the problem with the law?

My problem with the law (as opposed to the problem with the law) is that it creates a defense based on a state of mind, and the cases construing it appear to require the prosecution to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant lacked that state of mind. It then goes on to insulate the defendant from liability in tort under state law if the defendant is found innocent.

This effectively prevents any objective punishment for, or review or compensation from, dangerous and devastating actions, and promotes neither justice nor safety.

John
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
Different view of what may have happened, says the kid attacked him. I would like to see a PD of the 2 of them. Giant football player vs. 98lb geek or what are we looking at. What if Zimmerman was a female ?

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html

Not to worry the good reverand Sharpton is on hand to smooth things out.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 26, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Different view of what may have happened, says the kid attacked him. I would like to see a PD of the 2 of them. Giant football player vs. 98lb geek or what are we looking at. What if Zimmerman was a female ?

Most people would want to attack a person that is stalking them with a gun. The kid may have acted in self-defense when confronted by an unknown person with a gun who had no business even talking to him that night. Did Zimmerman identify himself and his intentions or just start acting like he was the criminal?

They both were scared for their lives at some point during all of this but only one of them went out that night with a gun with the intention of shooting someone, should the need arise. The other just wanted to get home with his candy.

This is like hiding in the closet with a gun and waiting each night until your wife finally has a lover over to visit. It would clearly be a crime of passion because you had no way of knowing that your wife's lover would show up that night.

Dave
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 26, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Here is a collection of 911 calls related to this incident. I'll try to embed the video but I'm not familiar with this bulletin board format.


[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHMRwmGlKs8]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHMRwmGlKs8&feature=related


Sorry, I can't seem to get this vid to embed. But the link is there for anyone interested. Some of it gets pretty emotional.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 26, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
I would be having a couple drinks with my friends in the Black Panther Party

I'm thinking this scene is kind of like the painting of dogs playing poker.

then I would borrow an arsenal.

LOL
"Excuse me sir, but could I borrow your weapons and ammo to go storm a police station?"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 26, 2012 - 09:49pm PT


michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 26, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
This guy f*#ked up real, real bad by stalking and killing this kid.
This is a moron of legendary scale.
Being a paranoid, pathetic, lunatic, loser is no excuse for murder.

They need to do a psyche evaluation on Zimmerman..

How many times has he called the police?
Any psychiatrist could tell you the tone of his voice and how paranoid he sounded talking about the kid, isn't a normal paranoia. He's probably got some kind of Schizophrenia or something...
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 26, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
Manzanita man: Agreed about waiting for all the info on this particular case. I do think however that it's a poorly constructed law.

One thing that I have read that is not in congruence with your post is that there is no registered Neighborhood watch group in that neighborhood. Zimmerman was self-appointed watchman on an imaginary force. Do you have sources where it is stated there was one? Also, it is my understanding that Neighborhood Watch Groups (official ones) are prohibited from carrying guns. Again this points to his imaginary status on an imaginary group.

Not saying you are wrong. Just curious where you got your info. I'm curious to read it.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:36am PT
I'm not a great speculator. I won't speculate about an acquittal because I'm not at all certain there will be an arrest at all. Or a trial.

Or maybe you mean the grand jury no-bills this? Who knows what will happen in terms of riots if that happens. I personally don't think it'll have squat to do with the presidential election personally.

Whatever happens, Zimmerman's life is forever changed. Not sure if he'll be found to scare someone else who pops him or what. But he clearly will have to go the way of Casey Anthony - live very quietly. :/
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:10am PT
Fact; the kid was stoned...he was buying skittles and a slurpy.
He had been suspended from school for having pot in his back pack.
Fact; he had the "noids" and attacked Zimmerman

Come on, stop so much speculating. Wait for all the details

Who the hell wears a hoodie in FL anyways ? I just got back from hunting in SE Texas where it was hot & humid....hoodie weather...NOT. If you're wearing a hoodie you're hiding.

My neighborhood watch has PD from various breakins listed as "black male, 20-35 yrs". The latest hit & run on a parked car at 2am "ealy model Cadillac, BM, hoodie" Seems to be the outfit of choice for pot smokin, residential burglary hit & run thugs. I know my neighborhood, I walk my dog a mile or 2 pretty much every day. If somethings out of place I'll stop and observe but I'm not attacking anybody. But if they come at me and say WTF you looking at ? It's on.

My car got broken into in my driveway between 12am & 4am. I had just come home from the range about 11;45pm and left for work with my shotgun at 4am to go hunting after work. Lucky bastards....I'd have solved the car break in problem. Neighbors trail camera....male in a hoodie(no race, no face).
California will soon step up & ban hoodies. My neighborhood will be safer.

So the Black Panthers offered $10K for Zimmerman ?? There was an ad here for a lost pet for that much. Are they afraid it's going to get garnished or something ? What a token. Isn't that illegal ??

Riots ? You'd better believe it. Who will be the target ? Or will it be an excuse to loot as it was in South Central LA(yes, I was there).
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:39am PT
"Most people would want to attack a person that is stalking them with a gun"


huh? i'm not going to attack a person with a gun; i'm going to try to escape or create a disturbance to bring out witnesses

besides, there is no indication that martin knew zimmerman was armed; if z did have his gun drawn, it makes no sense that he would have allowed martin to attack


"Maybe you have to be from another country to really see how ridiculous law enforcement in the USA is in response to a murdered 17 year old black kid."

no, what's ridiculous is the presumption of guilt, which rejects the very foundation of our justice system; or maybe it's just your ignorance of the meaning of "murder", which has a specific definition and requires far more evidence than anyone on this site is privy to

also ridiculous is the presumption of racism just because the victim was a "17 year old black kid"; what if the races were reversed? would you assume the black shooter was racist for killing an hispanic man?

final ridiculous is the knee-jerk accusations of a conspiracy; your presumption of z's racism suggests that the police officers on the scene, the ems and coroner's personnel on the scene, and the da all conspired to cover up an obvious case of a hate crime--who's paranoid, now?

"a paranoid, pathetic, lunatic, loser"

an assessment based on a public record of such behavior? your inside information after speaking with z's friends and relatives or z himself? your years of investigative police work or psychological research?

or maybe you were subliminally influenced by the reflection in your computer screen


interesting that white people did not threaten violence when oj was acquitted or that he was never threatened after he was free and walking around living the high life...and that was AFTER all the evidence was released
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Mar 27, 2012 - 10:32am PT
The whole thrust of this thread pisses me off...

It's called a "rush to judgement" without having ALL of the details in hand. It's a strictly emotional response, and I'm all for the courts dealing with it, and not a mob rush for a lynching.

None of us KNOW the deatils, but are responding to MSM "senstionalism."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:20am PT
Duke Lacrose Team all over again.
KaiPL

Mountain climber
Boulder, Colorado
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
Florida "stand your ground" law:

3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

This seems pretty reasonable to me.

If you reasonably believe that you are in danger of great bodily harm or death, why would you not have the right to defend yourself?


As for the the Treyvon Martin case: If Zimmerman's account is true (and apparently witnesses and the physical evidence support his account) and Martin attacked him and Zimmerman was getting pummeled and having his head smacked against the pavement, it seems like Zimmerman was in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. Retreat doesn't seem to be an option in this circumstance, so "stand your ground" isn't applicable.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
tgt pictures of the young man looks just like my kid at those ages. The only difference is mine is white.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
California will soon step up & ban hoodies. My neighborhood will be safer.
No truer words were ever spoken. "People don't commit crimes; hoodies do".

That clinched it for me. He was wearing a hoody. Guilty as charged. No need to dispense capital punishment either since he's already dead. What an efficient system.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
we're "idiots" because we admit we don't have all the evidence and can't make a judgment...and because we believe the vast majority of white people--including cops--are NOT racist...and we're willing to believe that a man with black friends publicly defending him might, actually, be a decent man who put himself (that much i'll concede) in a terrible situation with a tragic outcome


you know, i actually prefer being an "idiot"
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
And it was done by a guy who in 2005 had an assault charge on a police officer and a domestic violence charge in 2007.

So what? You think that is as serious as being suspended from school for having an empty baggie? You libs have no sense of proportion!
KaiPL

Mountain climber
Boulder, Colorado
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
It's funny that people assume that the police haven't been doing anything.

"Nothing has been done by the local police."

It's true that the police didn't immediately arrest Zimmerman. However, that's not the same as doing nothing.

A murder investigation takes time. Typically longer than 48 hours. Did the local police say that the case was closed? Did they say that they didn't plan on investigating? Not that I've heard or read.

People complain about the lack of "justice" because Zimmerman wasn't immediately thrown in jail. It's becoming more and more clear that the evidence that the police had access to doesn't warrant keeping Zimmerman in jail during the investigation.

Ultimately, if the evidence collected by the investigation is sufficient, it will go to a grand jury, who will decide whether or not criminal charges are warranted. That's how our justice system works, even though Al Sharpton, the Black Panthers, Sinead O'Conner and other luminaries want to take a shortcut to "justice" and throw Zimmerman in jail without a trial (or just kill him.)



Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
NOTHING had been done for decades now. Between the hamstringing of law enforcement by politicians and lawyers making a joke out of the system nothing is the norm,
Let me understand you correctly, you're saying that the penal code, the executive branch (police, sheriffs, etc.) and the criminal courts system have been sitting idly by doing absolutely nothing for 30 yrs.? How do you explain our overcrowded prisons? How has law enforcement been hamstrung? How have lawyers been making a joke out of the system?

BTW, I don't actually expect you to provide a reasonable response to any of my questions. I'm writing more to let you know that the typical redneck 'they're taking over' crap doesn't really fly.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
And this relates to Zimmerman/Martin how?
cleo

Social climber
the canyon below the Ditch!!!!
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
Nice TGT. Your photo is a fake.

http://twitchy.com/2012/03/25/why-teamdueprocess-is-important-for-justice/
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
The Tampa Bay Times takes the approach we have seen adopted by the Times -
there is no mention of Zimmerman's bloody nose or cut to the back of his
head. Lots of rumination about how children can avoid "looking suspicious",
but no advice along the lines of "don't punch strangers in the nose".

----------------------------


(An account of the shooting with street maps and background of the players)

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/




Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Denny remeber that poor guy?

Do you remember Reginald Denny? Do you? Do you recall how he dealt with what happened?

Reginald Denny is one hell of a good man, and I doubt very much he'd appreciate his name being used against Martin.

cc:
but no advice along the lines of "don't punch strangers in the nose".

Classic. I suppose you wouldn't fight back, you'd have been on your knees kissing Zimmerman's feet, crying and pleading for him not to plug you.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
Fair enough, Ron.

BTW, yes, riots are stupid.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Did those guys burn their neighbors houses when they left to join???

Yes they did. They did not treat the conservatives of that day, who supported the king, very kindly. Read about it, it's very interesting stuff.

edit: In fairness to the patriots, the conservatives did want to hang them.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 27, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
It is absolutely stunning how the modern day conservative is rushing to defend Zimmerman. A true conservative would have no sympathy for a wannabe cop who stalks a kid, causes a confrontation, loses a fist fight and kills the kid.....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 27, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
I just hate how everyone is jumping to conclusions based on whatever side of the plane you like to sit on.

Left wing sees Zimmerman as a murderer.
Right wing sees Zimmerman as someone defending themselves.

Le' sigh, then you get the whole race issue bullsh*t.
He obviously profiled everyone who was black. Pretty racist.
Don't make it an issue about "oh the kid was black, no justice will be served because the shooter was white."
How about the issue of some kid is dead, and there isn't enough evidence to prove if it was self defense or not?

Be angry at the investigators..

The bruises on Zimmerman's face should be matched to the fists at the end of Martin's arms. Not hard at all, Riley i'm sure you've seen plenty of domestic assaults if you work in a hospital. They probably take pictures of those bruises real fast...

The investigators are just sitting on their d*cks waiting for something new to happen.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
M. very short sighted assesment there. The lead investigator wanted manslaughter. FL law makes it very easy to kill without penalty so perp walks. There is ample evidence suggesting zimmerman stalked trevon. there is little doubt that zimmerman was on the loseing end of a fist fight.. just think what a bad ass I could have been in 7th grade if VT had a law like that and I could have shot every kid that beat me in a fist fight........
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 27, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
That's exactly how I see it....

He stalked him.
Wanted to get into an altercation...
Sh*t came out sideways and he landed on his a** with some kid trying to defend himself.
Martin see's Zimmerman pull a gun.
Martin screams.
Zimmerman has self defense case....
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
The Daily Caller obtains Trayvon Martin’s tweets.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86809463/Trayvon-s-Tweets-the-Daily-Caller
















monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
Why don't you have him selling drugs at the 7/11?

Smart CC, you removed your comment about him being out smoking pot, cuz we know pot smokers are such a threat.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Mono - Remind us all why he was on a 10 day school suspension?

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Why did you remove your comment?
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Mono - troll
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
I think we can all agree there was a physical confrontation. In this case, the winner gets to make the claims about how it started.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
Mono - although his eyes are quite bloodshot is his twitter pic. Think its
because he'd been studying a lot?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Yes CC, he was a nasty kid in a hoodie, deserving to be stalked and killed by a guy 100 lbs heavier in fear of his life.
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Mar 27, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
Zimmerman has a history of being aggressive with those he doesn't see eye to eye with...






Sanford police released a log of Zimmerman's dozens of calls to police dating back to 2004, which show a pattern of his reporting suspicious people and minor nuisances. Three other reports released by the county sheriff show Zimmerman was willing to follow wrong-doers.

In September 2003, Zimmerman called police to complain of a fellow motorist spitting on him. He followed the man until police arrived.

But the motorist, Daniel Osmun, told police that Zimmerman was tailgating and he spit his gum out the window "out of frustration" with the young man's erratic driving.

As they pulled up next to each other, the two exchanged words and "Mr. Osmun also said at one point, he thought Mr. Zimmerman was going to attack him," according to a police report. Prosecutors were contacted but no charges were ever filed against either, according to state records.

In October 2003, Zimmerman again called police as he followed a man who had apparently stolen two combination DVD/TV players from a supermarket. The suspected thief was arrested.

Then in October 2007, Zimmerman called police to report that the tires of his Dodge Durango were slashed and he suspected his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend. However, he had no proof the man, Tim Hudik, was behind the vandalism.

Hudik, however, told police that he never touched the truck - and that he so was aggravated by text message exchanges with Zimmerman that he was mulling a restraining order against Zimmerman. None was filed, according to Seminole County records.

Hudik hung up on a Miami Herald reporter Tuesday.

Zimmerman was arrested in a scuffle with an undercover officer in 2005, but the charges were dropped when he entered a pre-trial diversion program that allowed him to have a clean record.

When he applied for the citizen's police academy, Zimmerman insisted he did not know the man he scuffled with was a cop.

"I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regaurd (sic) as I hope to one day become one," he wrote in his application. "I would never have touched a police officer."

©2012 The Miami Herald




...good thing for Daniel Osmun that the police heard HIS side, as that is my best friend's (from college) brother in Sanford, and losing him for nothing would be plain wrong.




Sucking Fyko is what Zimmerman is
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-elderly-man-shoots-burglar-in-englewood-both-charged-20120326,0,3175723.story
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
"Stand Your Ground Law"
The results are entirely predictable.

WTF is the idea of allowing (encouraging) people outside the authorized law enforcement chain of command to shoot unarmed citizens upon fear of violence? Where is the training? NADA. Where is the chain of responsibility? NADA.

And this BS about Trayvon having been in trouble for marijuana?
One of the most decent, non-violent young men I know has been busted for dope.
BFD.

I don't particularly hold Zimmerman at fault. Sure he's guilty of manslaughter at least, but he was setup by the community's mass hysteria.

Riley
I don't think I have ever known anyone like Zimmerman.
You need to get out and expand your social life. There are plenty of them.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
This is the sort of loutish,hysteria-driven, mean-spirited mob mentality that has.....
led to the creation of this non-sensical and dangerous law.

hey. How about all the climbers I know who wear hoodies? How 'bout the Patagucci hoodie sweaters and guide jackets?
How 'bout the climbers who've had a MJ run-in with the law and wear hoodies on a dark night?

be careful out there, could be a target on your back.

The ONLY facts we know are that Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Zimmerman was armed. Trayvon wasn't. Trayvon had not committed any crime that night. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. And the DA did diddley squat of an investigation.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 27, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
Hoodies first became popular when it got cold.
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:07am PT
Have you ever been followed ?

Did you attack your follower ?



'
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:07am PT
The ONLY facts we know are that Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Zimmerman was armed. Trayvon wasn't. Trayvon had not committed any crime that night. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. And the DA did diddley squat of an investigation.

We don't know if Trayvon committed any crime, but it doesn't matter. The other facts ARE what we know and much of what you need to know to know something went wrong.

What really made this story blow up and take racial overtones was not the incident itself, but the police investigation of it.

The police sent out a narcotics detective, not a homicide detective.
The police dept. had complaints of racial bias in the past.
The police didn't test the shooter for drugs/alcohol but they tested the dead person
The police did a poor job interviewing witnesses.
The police didn't check Trayvon's cell phone records and talk to his girlfriend who was on the phone when the incident was happening.

The police still haven't admitted they messed up not arresting Zimmerman. They said they had no reason to doubt his claims of self defense, but the simple fact that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon means it was not a stand your ground situation. If we take Zimmerman at his word that Trayvon attacked him you still have Zimmerman pursuing Trayvon causing the confrontation. The fact that the police STILL can't admit this shows how screwed up that department is.

American justice, like American democracy might be among the best in the world, but it's still ripe for abuse and screw up. And injustice DOES often affect some people more than others and if you can't see that you are a weak, self centered person.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:37am PT
we don't know that z "pursued" martin; we know he FOLLOWED, which is perfectly reasonable for neighborhood watch; we don't know he was "ordered" to stop following but simply told "we don't need you" to follow

we know z was bloodied on his face and head

we know z claimed he was attacked, which was, at least partially, confirmed by a witness who called 911 and reported "man in white" (martin was 6'2" and wearing white) on top of and beating "man in red" (z was wearing red)

we know z is hispanic; we know z tutors black children even after funding for the program was discontinuted; we know z has black friends defending his character--one of them publicly the other without showing his face because he fears for his safety

we know z has been arrested and we know martin was suspended from school for drugs; meaning, we know nobody's record is perfect

we know the black panthers have put out a "bounty" for a man who is not a fugitive and has not even been charged with a crime; we know spike lee tweeted a private citizen's phone number that turned out to be the wrong number and now an elderly couple is being harrassed and is afraid for their safety

we know public officials are making accusations of "murder" and systemic racism, further enflaming a terrible situation

we know sometimes the system fails but most of the time it doesn't

we know nobody outside out of sanford, fl, would be having this conversation if martin wasn't black or z wasn't not black

we know that 90% of black murder victims are murdered by black assailants, and we know that nobody wants to address that issue

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:51am PT
oh, we also know zimmerman is a registered DEMOCRAT!!!



so, by the logic displayed on this thread, we can immediately assume that all democrats are violent, racist, ignorant, pathetic, psychotic, etc.


which, of course, we already knew
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 10:31am PT
validation of goldberg's "liberalism fascism":

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-27/news/os-trayvon-martin-wrong-zimmerman-20120327_1_tweets-heart-condition-twitter


hey, riley, while you're hangin' with the nbp's (assuming they let a "cracker" like you in their company) maybe you can have a few laughs about this elderly couple being driven out of their home
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
This article, allegedly leaked from the police, says Martin approached Zim as he walked away, saying "what's your problem?" "you got one now" and punched him. Them got on top and pounded his head on the ground while Zim yelled for help. Witness backs the latter half that Matin was on top & Zim calling for help.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Martin suspended 3x from school, not an empty baggy, still had some pot AND a pipe. Relevant...not really.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
I just love how they keep using Martin's pic from when he was like 12. All smiles. Not the ones of him in baggy clothes flipping off the camera.

edit: BREAKING NEWS

(CNN) -- The parents of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teen killed by a Hispanic man who claims self-defense, said Wednesday that they have faith in authorities investigating the case.

Zimmerman is now "Hispanic".

F*ck my life.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
The problem is that the Right wing in this country is part of a cult that gets all its information from the same sources and thinks the same way.


I'm trying to think of the best way to compare it to something....

I guess...

If your Black, you'll most likely see this as a hate crime, and another black kid killed after being profiled, and no justice.


Right wing, will most likely see it as a self defense, of an attack by a black kid who has been suspended from school, and posts stuff on twitter that their conservative celibate sons and daughters would never post on twitter, and that this should clearly be a clear cut case of self defense based on the "Stand your Ground" Law.


Riley, let's be friends. There's a lot more room in the middle. :)
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
I think he always was.
He certainly never looked white.
Who was saying he was white?

About every news agency when this whole thing went out of control.

Zimmerman seriously, from the sound of it, has some sort of superiority complex. Given his past criminal history, it could of all been avoided if he didn't feel like he needed to intervene every time something happened.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
The Sanford Police selectively leaked irrelevant, negative information about Martin. The authorities told the Orlando Sentinel this morning that Trayvon was suspended from school for ten days “after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.” There is no evidence that Martin was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death, nor would prior possession of marijuana be a reason for killing him. It’s unclear what the relevance of the leak was, other than to smear Martin. [Orlando Sentinel]

The marijuana stuff is at least somewhat relevant. It's well known that using marijuana causes paranoia in at least some users. If Trayvon was under the influence of marijuana and was being followed by Zimmerman, he may have overreacted and attacked Zimmerman.

Moreover, possession of marijuana is a crime, and if Trayvon had recently been engaged in criminal activity, it's entirely possible that he had the mindset of criminals and those dealing with criminals--was he being followed by a drug dealer or user who wanted to steal his marijuana? An informant?
Who knows. But people involved in criminal activity likely have a different mindset when dealing with the public compared to people not involved in criminal activity, especially activity that is frequently linked to other crimes and violence (e.g., theft of drugs and money that drug dealers and users have, rip offs during drug deals).

Speculative? Absolutely. Highly relevant? Perhaps not.
But let's not pretend that Trayvon's history of marijuana-related suspension has no relevance to this story--it's all part of the mix of trying figure out what happened.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
The worst thing this kid can be accused of is confronting someone who was stalking him. Apparently, that is an idea foreign to our Republican apologist friends. They are so used to bending over and grabbing their ankles, they think it is the norm.

A scrawny kid had the balls to stand up to a bigger, and armed, thug and he's the one being smeared by the right wing. Classic.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
The marijuana stuff is at least somewhat relevant. It's well known that using marijuana causes paranoia in at least some users. If Trayvon was under the influence of marijuana and was being followed by Zimmerman, he may have overreacted and attacked Zimmerman.

That's hilarious on SO many levels!

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
we know that 90% of black murder victims are murdered by black assailants, and we know that nobody wants to address that issue

Holy crap, is this really true?

If so, the race-card players should take a moment to reflect on this...

While Zimmerman is very likely a kook with a gun who got in over his head,
the "kid" was most certainly knott an angel, despite what the pre-pubescent pic might
lead us to believe.

And it takes 2 to tango...

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
A scrawny kid had the balls to stand up to a bigger, and armed, thug and he's the one being smeared by the right wing. Classic.

Sadly, this is most likely the case. Unfortunately, one side is making it about race, while the other is trying to dig up trash on the kid to justify shooting him. It's f*cking bullsh*t.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
michaeld, this kid should be a hero to the right wing. Instead of waiting for somebody else to do it for him, he took action and stood up for himself. Then a corrupt and evil government screwed him over after he was dead.

In the meantime, there is the case of Trevor Dooley. Dooley, with a handgun tucked into his pants, left his house and crossed the street to a park to tell a kid he couldn't skateboard there. A father playing basketball with his daughter argued with him about that.

Dooley turned and started back to his house. The father went after him, and grabbed him. Dooley shot the father.

The two cases seem similar don't they? The instigator, who was armed, turned away, and then shot in self-defense when confronted.

Yet Dooley is on trial while Zimmerman is free. Isn't that curious? Especially since Dooley is black and the guy he shot is white.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Yes Hardman, that is the case: Most violent crime is intraracial.

It varies a little bit year to year, but in general, about 90% of blacks murdered were murdered by blacks. About 7-8% of blacks were murdered by a white.

For whites, about 85% were murdered by whites. And about 14% were murdered by whites.

(Differences come from 'unknown' or 'other' victims.)

Keep in mind that the FBI at the national level does not collect victim or offender Hispanic origin data (some states do). So, these number only refer to race (white, black, other in this case). Most Hispanics are white so most Hispanics are going to be found in the white category.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
A tragic encounter is when you hit a cow on your dirt bike.
Both sides are making it about race.


What happened is --- An adult seems to have stalk, confronted, & shot & killed a juvenile. & the police did nothing until pressured.


Something is way wrong period.


Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Both sides are making it about race.

-which is fućking bullshìt!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Agreed Jebus.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
There's something very unsavory about this form of argument. Like justifying rape in the case of short skirts or the like.

OK, two guys got into a beef, one of them is dead. And we don't have all the facts.

Better?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but all the (usual) assumptions make me dizzy.

Since we are making assumptions, I'll assume that Zimmerman called him a "coon" (as you can hear him say on the 911 tape). Or maybe the N-word? Then "the kid" starts beating the crap outta Zimmerman, and he shoots Martn.

Again, two to tango...

It does seem odd that Zimmerman is knott in jail. Can't wait to hear the whole story!
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
if this thread isnt proof positive of the media and their abilities to stir the poop

Ron, shouldn't some poop have been stirred here?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
deleted
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Can't wait to hear the whole story!

Agreed, Hardman, but we do have a lot of facts now, the 911 tapes most significantly. None of which make Zimmerman look good, IMO.

If it's OK to shoot someone because they had an empty baggie, I would never have survived HIGH school.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Gary,a certain amount Yes,,but NO MORE than the dead counted on the evening news last night.

Couldn't agree with you more, Ron.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
Agreed, Hardman, but we do have a lot of facts now, the 911 tapes most significantly. None of which make Zimmerman look good, IMO.

If he really said "fućking coons" on the 911 tape (and it certainly sounds like it), then there should be hell to pay, regardless of the circumstances of the shooting. It does sound like the wanna-be cop was looking for a fight, his bravery bolstered by the firearm.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
It's interesting to me how an initial discussion about the "Florida Stand Your Ground Law," about which we have virtually all available information, morphed into a Martin/Zimmerman discussion, about which we lack some (though, in my opinion, not a whole lot of) information.

Sure, there are people who will use any excuse, legitimate or otherwise, to stir things up. To me in this case, however, the facts we already know about the Zimmerman/Martin tragedy (I assume that no matter how you feel about this, any time an unarmed man is shot dead [and even some times when an armed on is] constitutes a tragedy) make a discussion of the wisdom of that law timely and rather important.

I guess I analyze it this way. If someone shoots another in self-defense, no [edit: United States] law of which I am aware authorizes prosecution. Florida's law differs from that norm because its interpretation lacks objectivity in determining self-defense.

The law itself requires a "reasonable" belief. That implies an objective standard. Unfortunately, as I understand it, the case law undermines that objectivity to the point where prosecution becomse difficult if the defendant can provide evidence of fear, even if a reasonable person would not so fear.

If I am correct, does such a law make for a safer society? That, to me, should constitute the policy debate. those who decry the press's playing of this in a manner of "Judgment first, then trial" (as the Queen of Hearts said in Through the Looking Glass) have, I think, a legitimate point, although I know of almost nowhere else where Zimmerman would still be free and uncharged. That doesn't apply, however, to a discussion of the Florida law. How many more Trayvon Martin's can we bury and maintain our souls?

John
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Agreed Hardman. We don't know a lot. And the media does not get details right frequently in cases like this.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
If he really said "fućking coons" on the 911 tape (and it certainly sounds like it), then there should be hell to pay, regardless of the circumstances of the shooting."

what if he didn't make any racist comment but really did kill martin for racial reasons? how would you prove that? would you argue that his volunteer tutoring of black children on the weekends was just a cover, to help in his defense when he just happened to find the perfect opportunity to kill an innocent black man in a scenario that he could plausibly argue self-defense, something he's been dreaming about his entire life? would you argue that his black friends who are defending his character were also part of his grand scheme to hide his racism? would you argue that these men are too naive to recognize a racist when they meet one or that they are victims of some deeply psychological self-loathing inspired by their racist society?

and what if he did make the comment? would that make him a racist? ever call a woman a 'bitch'? does that make you a misogynist? you say, 'regardless of the circumstances': what if martin did attack him? would the comment be a sure sign of racism? or fear? or anger? what if i come home to find a black man raping my wife and i call him a "coon" as i shoot him? am i guilty of a hate crime? can you prove, based only on that extraordinary moment, that i'm a racist?

consider: i murder a black man because...

1) i want to take his watch

2) i want to see what it's like to watch a man die

3) i want to prove i'm tough

4) i think it's fun

5) i felt dissed when he stepped on my toe

6) i was mugged by a black man and want revenge

7) i was hired to kill him

8) i hate black people

now, which is the worst? only one murder is given special designation by federal legislation and it's one that is virtually impossible to prove


when we have members of congress declaring this was a murder before a trial, before a grand jury, before any charges, and before the evidence has been made public; when we have an elderly couple forced to flee their home for their own safety just because somebody named george zimmerman once lived at that address and their address was tweeted TWICE by a celebrity with thousands of followers; when we have a racial organization offering a cash "bounty" for a man that hasn't been charged and is not a fugitive, we need to seriously step back and consider the possibility that this could turn into something far worse
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 28, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
The law itself requires a "reasonable" belief. That implies an objective standard. Unfortunately, as I understand it, the case law undermines that objectivity to the point where prosecution becomse difficult if the defendant can provide evidence of fear, even if a reasonable person would not so fear.

The word "reasonable" in the statute doesn't "imply" an objective standard, it is an objective standard.
Can you cite the case law (or explain the basis for your "understanding") that, if I understand you right, someone can be immunized from prosecution on the basis of an unreasonable fear?

If your understanding is right, then I would agree that the law --as interpreted by the courts-- has a major flaw, but that flaw isn't at all apparent from the text of the law.

(Some other parts of the law, such as the notion that it changes the burden of proof in civil suits, may indeed be FUBAR, but I don't seen any connection between that and your point above.)
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Quite certain that Obama was commenting that a child who looked a lot like what his son would have looked like was killed. I see this at work all the time. Guys on the construction site who have daughters have zero tolerance for raunchy humor directed twords young girls. Its a parent thing. You can turn it into a race thing if you want but INMOP the gut reaction was a parent thing.
Just have to say this again as it is just so blareingly obvious and disgusting.
The modern day conservative seems to foster a sh#t ton of small minded mean spirited weirdos. My dad was as Republican as you could get back in the day before it was spelled Repuglican. Decorated WW11 vet who took on Tiger tanks with a bazooka. I garentee you that if he was alive today that he would disown the current repuglican party and there is no way in hell that he would be sticking up for zimmerman. My dad was a man of integrity and compasion. Two qualitys almost completly lacking in the modern day conservative.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 28, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
The Florida special prosecutor investigating the Trayvon Martin shooting is bringing in independent voice analysis experts to go over the 911 tapes. Zimmerman said it was him screaming for help, if it's determined in was Martin, Zimmerman will be in deep sh#t. If it's Z unfortuneatly we probably won't learn much about what really happended but it will bolster his claim of self defense.

This case kind of strikes a chord with me. When I was in college a friend and I got the address of a rental house from an agent who told us we could go take a look. I guess we did look suspicious, we were there at dusk, in an empty van, looking in the windows with a flashlight. But it was an empty house.

A cop showed up, started questioning us, and a jackass, beer bellied, low class, neighbor comes up accusing us of being the thiefs that have been buglarizing the neigborhood. For about 10 minutes we were polite, understanding, and explained the situation. But the neighbor started addressing me directly accusing and cussing at me, I finally lost my temper and went off saying something like "You say we were here for 10 minutes or more looking in the windows right? It's an empty house idiot, how long are we going to case an EMPTY house?, You are totally wrong right now but you are too stupid or stubborn to realize it and you are accusing innocent people. You're the one causing the problem right now. There's no way we'd rent this place with an as#@&%e neighbor like you next door. Call the listing agent and see if we talked to her earlier today." After my outburst the cop stopped believing the nieghbor and started believing us because what I said made sense, but the neighbor still was unconvinced and pissed that the cop didn't think we were guilty at that point. The cop left but my friend and I had to sit there in his van for another 15 minutes or so because his van has a glitch where it wouldn't start until it cooled down. The whole time we were waiting for the neigbor to come back out with a gun or something.

And we were college student white kids. I can't imagine what would have happened if we were black. The cop seemed reasonable and it probably wouldn't have mattered to him, but the neighbor was an as#@&%e who couldn't see he was wrong even when I told him how illogical his view was, just the type to be racist.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 28, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
JE: If someone shoots another in self-defense, no [edit: United States] law of which I am aware authorizes prosecution. Florida's law differs from that norm because its interpretation lacks objectivity in determining self-defense.

In Canada, and I believe many US states, an independent party or parties - police, prosecution, grand jury - determines whether it appears that there was an objective, reasonable basis for the claim of self-defence or not, based on the evidence. In turn, a court hears the evidence and makes the decision. Laws like this allow an interested party, who may often be the only surviving witness, to make that decision.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 28, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
JE: If someone shoots another in self-defense, no [edit: United States] law of which I am aware authorizes prosecution. Florida's law differs from that norm because its interpretation lacks objectivity in determining self-defense.

MH: In Canada, and I believe many US states, an independent party or parties - police, prosecution, grand jury - determines whether it appears that there was an objective, reasonable basis for the claim of self-defence or not, based on the evidence. In turn, a court hears the evidence and makes the decision. Laws like this allow an interested party, who may often be the only surviving witness, to make that decision.

JE hasn't responded to my earlier post, but it appears that he is wrong in his clam that Florida's law "lacks objectivity in determining self-defense." (If he or anyone else can show I'm wrong, notwithstanding the "plain meaning" of the statute, which requires reasonableness, I'll give thanks for the correction.)

MH--I'm not an expert on Florida criminal law, but I've yet to see any suggestion that the Florida law would be applied any differently from any other criminal law statute (and US criminal law is almost entirely statutory). The law in question doesn't change how the system works (police investigate, DA decides whether to bring charges, defense doesn't apply if the defendant's behavior isn't "reasonable"). There may (or may not) be problems with the FL law, but so far no one has shown any connection to those perceived problems and anything that has happened in the investigation of this case.



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
Bla bla bla, take it you have not read any of refrences to multiple cases where the FLA law has made it difficult for prosecuters to have a case resulting in letting the murderer free. In most states the shooter has to prove that the person he shot was in the preocess of taking the shooters life or that of annother person. The perp must have the intention to kill and the means to kill . In VT if I think you are trying to kill me and I waste you and your gun turns out to be a bag of skittles I go to prison. IN FL I walk without even a trip to the police station.
In FL the threat does not have to be real. The way it is worded the court has ruled by the letter of the law VS the intent of the law setting pressidence that the threat does not have to be real, it can be imagined. If you are afraid for your life you may shoot regardless of the fact that your life was not actually in danger.

That precidence that has been established in FL greatly affected this case. The cops knew they couldn't make anything stick so they didn't try very hard.. The SYG law set the precidence. The shooter walks without even a trip downtown.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
thought experiment

Is there any chance in hell that if a Black guy shot an unarmed White guy in Florida that he wouldn't have been charged or taken to jail

I think no chance at all

which is the problem

Peace

Karl
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
this thread is so full of outright BS from both sides that it is hilarious.

the police at the scene wanted to arrest the Zman so dont sh#t on them.

many of you want to condemn Zman without a trial, do you need a noose? really?

none of us know the facts until we actually sit in the jbox during the trial. all you f*#ks are doing is proving what blind as#@&%es you are whether you are on one side or the other......
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Not sure if we do know that is zimmerman? if it is it is the first time that I was aware that they brought him downtown for questioning? he certainly looks physicaly fine in the video.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 28, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
This shows why in the old days the trials were more speedy.

The longer this drags on the more polarizing it becomes.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
Zimmerman is not a cop. He had absolutely no business following and confronting Martin, who nobody has alleged or even hinted was committing a crime of any sort. The 911 dispatcher instructed him to desist. He didn't, but rather continued to stalk Martin and at some point confronted him.

There is no "defense" here, only aggression on the part of Zimmerman.

The investigating detective wanted to file homicide charges. Apparently he was overridden by a state judicial official.

Zimmerman should be arrested and there should be a trial.

@blahblah - Your statments are the stupidest thing I've read in many years.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 28, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Is there any chance in hell that if a Black guy shot an unarmed White guy in Florida that he wouldn't have been charged or taken to jail

Google Trevor Dooley and your question will be answered, Karl.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:16am PT
zimmerman was taken to jail and released when the da determined there was not enough evidence to hold him; however, that was not the end of the investigation

f displays his limited vocabulary when he claims "kill" is synonymous with "murder"; he also shows his contempt for the justice system by admitting he does not need to hear any evidence to determine if a crime has been committed
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:53am PT
Karl has so little faith in his fellow man. I would hope that equal treatment would take place.

As my grandpa used to say, "Hope in one hand and sh#t in the other and see which one fills up first."

Google Trevor Dooley.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:01am PT
Zimmerman is not a cop. He had absolutely no business following and confronting Martin,

Personally, I'd rather wait to hear the evidence, but I would like to point out that the common notion that it is only the job of the police to confront criminals is disingenuous.
The main job of police is to clean up messes. Being pro-active is great, but they can't be everywhere at once.

The front line in the war on crime is and always has been right in everyone's face. Certainly an uncomfortable notion but deal with it!

You can run and hide, put three locks on the door, or you can chose to become pro-active.

The truth is that far more criminals are justifiably shot by civilians than cops.

That said, if Zimmerman was out looking for somebody to shoot, then put him in prison.
But if he was performing a legitimate neighborhood watch and confronted a suspicious person who became suddenly so violent that he had little time to react, then I don't intend to second guess him from the comfort of my gun room.
Nor do I think anyone who hasn't been the victim of a felony ought to be.

Let the justice system chew on this one.


I still stand by my prediction;
Federal charges for civil rights violation, civil mega-judgement but little coin to show for it
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:32am PT
But Ron, is walking on the sidewalk back to your house with candy criminal?
WBraun

climber
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:34am PT
They just released a video of Zimmerman after he was arrested at the police station and it appears in that video he had no injuries and no broken nose.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-shooter-george-zimmerman-appears-uninjured-police-video-night-shooting-article-1.1052433
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:36am PT
The likely scenario, judging from the various accounts is that Zimmerman thought Trayvon looked suspicious, law enforcement told him to back off, but he followed him anyway, disregarding their advice. Trayvon was then the one who felt threatened. It was the man following him who possessed a gun, after all, not him!!

Even if Trayvon turned on Zimmerman and punched him out, he also had the right to self-defense, didn't he? If Zimmerman can claim self defense against someone, even though he was following the guy, he had a gun, and the other guy didn't, how much more so could Trayvon have made the same claim. No one thus far has seemed to grasp the point that Trayvon has as much a right to act in self-defense as Zimmerman. Trayvon's in-laws, after all lived in that neighborhood, he had a perfect right to be there.

If I were in charge of admissions for the Florida police academy, I don't think I'd take Zimmerman
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:48am PT
Even if Trayvon turned on Zimmerman and punched him out, he also had the right to self-defense, didn't he? If Zimmerman can claim self defense against someone, even though he was following the guy, he had a gun, and the other guy didn't, how much more so could Trayvon have made the same claim. No one thus far has seemed to grasp the point that Trayvon has as much a right to act in self-defense as Zimmerman. Trayvon's in-laws, after all lived in that neighborhood, he had a perfect right to be there.

Actually I think lots of people have "grasped" your point, and it may be be correct (although it's not obvious to me that Trayvon would have the legal right to start beating the crap out of George, even if George was following Trayvon and being an obnoxious jerk by asking him where he was going / what he was doing).

It is hypothetically possible to have a situation where two people would have the legal right to act in self-defense and use deadly force against each other. In that case, it's just the luck of the draw who comes out on top, but no crime has been committed.

Here's an analogy: not every automobile accident is the result of negligence on the part of either driver. You may have an Escalade steamroll a SmartCar where the SmartCar driver did nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean the Escalde driver is liable under criminal or civil law.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
"appears uninjured"...granted, that calls into question the police report that states z was "bloody" on his face and the back of his head; however, it's not a "smoking gun"

it simply doesn't make sense that the police lied on their official report then took z to the police station where they KNEW there would be multiple cameras to reveal their false report; also, the cops would have to be certain that others on the scene (witnesses, ems personnel, and possibly coroner's and da personnel) would conspire to cover for them

the logical explanation (though still entirely based on speculation) is as follows: police are required to take injured suspects (note, z is cuffed in the back seat of the patrol car, which proves he was taken into custody) to the hospital if needed or render first aid on the scene; so, it makes sense that z would be cleaned up by the time he arrived at the police station


"Trayvon was then the one who felt threatened. It was the man following him who possessed a gun, after all, not him!!"

again, you're not thinking logically; you assume z had his gun drawn, which makes martin look pretty stupid (or at least reckless) for attacking a man who's holding a gun on him rather than running away or screaming for help

yes, martin had a right to be there, but residents also have a right to be suspicious if they don't recognize somebody walking in their neighborhood at night; and there's nothing illegal (or even wrong) about confronting such a person--especially following a rash of burglaries--to which the reasonable response is "my name is trayvon martin; my family lives on this street; you can follow me there to be sure"
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
We'll never know what really happened. I'm guessing Zimmerman tried to detain Martin cuz he knew the cops were on the way and didn't want 'another one' to get away as he said on 911 tape. Any kind of physical contact could easily escalate into a fight.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
you compare this incident to the holocaust, and i'm the one who be ashamed?


the whole purpose of neighborhood watch is to "watch" for suspicious activity; yes, martin was, technically, a child, but he was also 6'2" and walking with his hood up on a warm florida night; there had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood; there is NOTHING wrong with asking such a person to identify himself

bruce, you're the one who assumes this was a racial incident and fueled by hatred when you have NO PROOF whatsoever; in fact, the evidence we have about z's racial attitudes point to exactly the opposite (i.e. black men defending his character)
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
Yep Bookwarm, WATCH, means you watch and report. Don't confront and detain. He knew the cops were on the way.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
zimmerman derangement syndrome: trayvon martin's death = the holocaust = global warming skepticism = acceptance (sic) of gays


bad news, f, but i think bruce might be looking to take your place; you better come up with something way more unhinged than "murder"
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
bookworm:
and walking with his hood up on a warm florida night

Bookie, do you ever get anything right? You seem to have some sort of recurring problems with facts. And not just in this thread.

Trayvon Martin, 17, died Feb. 26 in a dark pathway some 20 minutes after a neighborhood watch volunteer called police saying he thought a young stranger looked suspicious. It was raining, and the volunteer thought the kid in the hoodie walked too slow and peeked in windows.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html

Is it possible you've got anything else wrong?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
How come we didn't have to wait on a report on Trevor Dooley?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
oops, one wrong fact--i guess i'm a racist hoping for a black holocaust; just ignore everything else


The Corner

The one and only.

10 Things That We’ve Learned from the Trayvon Martin Tragedy

By Victor Davis Hanson
March 29, 2012 11:27 A.M.

1) So far there has been very little new light shed on exactly what happened on the night of the shooting. It is likely that Mr. Zimmerman will be arrested on some sort of charge, local, state, or federal, and more likely that most will believe that such an arrest is as much a necessary price to soothe racial passions as it is likely to be based on careful review of existing evidence.

2) Identity in this ill society is everything — something to be put on and taken off as one sees advantage. Civil-rights supporters prefer to wear hoodies in rallies and demonstrations in solidarity with the hooded Mr. Martin, but prefer the media to continue to show pictures of a young-looking victim in football attire that better offers a sympathetic portrait to the general public. Hispanic and Democratic George Zimmerman, had he Hispanicized his name (something like a Jorge Zimmerman, or had he used his mother’s Latino maiden name), would have either found a supportive chorus from Latino activists, or the entire case of Latino-black crime would not have had commensurate resonance. If Mr. Zimmerman were applying for a civil-service job, no one would have created the new rubric “white Hispanic.” Even at this late date, if he were to use his mother’s maiden name as part of a hyphenated last name, he would earn more empathy. Unfortunately, he found himself pigeonholed as a white conservative vigilante, not a Hispanic Democrat, and that has made all the difference in his media profile.

3) The hysteria is not just over the death of a young African-American male, because hundreds are tragically killed to near silence every year, 94 percent of them by other African-American males. Nor is the outrage over a supposed white war against black men, given that in incidents of interracial crime, the latter kill the former far more frequently. Nor is it just over the decision, so far, of the police not to arrest and indict George Zimmerman, because hundreds of black assailants of other blacks each year find themselves not charged for capital crimes, because of the proven difficulties of obtaining critical affidavits, and the reluctance of eye-witnesses to come forward in the inner-city. In general, there are no marches or demonstrations over what has become a case of sheer carnage of one particular racial and gender group in our cities, or the frequent inability to bring murder suspects to trial. Finally, if the deceased had been white, and there are numerous whites killed each year in self-defense cases, with the facts as we know them so far unchanged, there would be zero national interest.

4) There are no such things any more as overtly recognized racial smears, at least not in the absolute sense. They now depend on perceptions of who says what and why, a relative condition. The country is obsessed with decoding a scratchy tape to ascertain whether Mr. Zimmerman said “cold, coons, goons, or punks,” with the idea that if the garbled word proves a racial slur, then we have the magical key that will supposedly unlock the case — even as the late Travyon Martin self-identified himself with the N-word on his Twitter account and used it of his friends. No one can explain why Mr. Martin felt a need to so self-identify; no one seems to care; and no one can provide rules of the conditions under which (who says it, and when, why, how) society must deplore the use of such an epithet.

5) The country is unhinged and pays no attention to simple logic. The mother of Trayvon Martin deplores society’s supposed media obsession over her son, even as she seeks to trademark her son’s name for traditional marketing purposes, after avowing her legal efforts are only to protect his legacy. We are to deplore the use of past information about Mr. Martin that might lend background information to the case (past suspensions, possible drug use, alleged possession of possible stolen items, etc.) that seems at odds with the narratives provided by the media, but simultaneously must be told that in the past Mr. Zimmerman was a vigilante, racist, had brushes with the law, was a bad credit risk, etc. In short, we are to accept that background information is a relative issue, and a necessary means only if it leads to proper ends.

6) There really is no law. The Martins have legitimate questions about the absence of an indictment, as do many in this country who are unhappy with the use of self-defense pleas. That said, no one believes the Black Panthers will be charged with a felony for posting an open-season bounty on Mr. Zimmerman; no one believes that Spike Lee’s deliberate attempt to incite a mob reaction at the Zimmerman residence will even be considered a misdemeanor; and no one believes that a crowd of protestors detouring into a pharmacy to loot it will face arrests for theft. Everyone believes that if he were to emulate any of the above behavior in a non-racially-charged case, he would most surely risk some sort of legal repercussions.

7) There can be no more presidential editorializing. In this case, the Gates matter, the Fluke incident, and the Giffords tragedy, the president weighed in only to find his commentary either unsupported by facts, premature, prejudicial, or abjectly partisan. Nor will the attorney general weigh in, given that he has lost credibility after nonsensically calling the nation “cowards” for not wishing for a dialogue on race on his terms, referring to African-Americans as “my people,” and alleging racism as the cause of congressional questioning of his handling of the Fast and Furious debacle.

8) Mr. Zimmerman indeed may be guilty of second-degree murder, some sort of manslaughter, criminal negligence, or innocent by reason of self-defense. But we are at a point now where such considerations have become secondary to the larger agendas of activists. Mr. Sharpton, Mr. Jackson, the Black Panther Party, the Black Caucus, Spike Lee, and others may feel their invective and shoot-from-the-hip allegations are necessary to ensure an indictment, given the history of racial bias in this country; but fairly or not that aim seems secondary to their larger interests in racial scapegoating and acrimony for careerist reasons. Of course, they are not worried about such criticism, but it nonetheless is widely shared, as the opportunism and lack of ethics of the current self-identified civil-rights establishment is becoming a national consensus.

9) Most who editorialize so passionately on this case, black and white, live in cities, but most likely as far away from those neighborhoods and inner-city schools where murder is an epidemic as they can. They are engaging in de facto profiling in every aspect of their and their childrens’ lives, based on general perceptions, personal experience, and statistical data. Profiling and stereotyping are for others; a “good” or “safe” area is for the more sensitive and educated.

10) If an outsider were dispassionately to collate the public statements of the Black Caucus, the number of widely publicized racial controversies, and the charges of racism and counter-racism in the last three years, then one would conclude that racial relations, at least at the media and sensationalized level, from 2009–2012 were both far more emphasized and far worse, and the country far more polarized, than at any time in recent memory. In short, we are entering a dangerous phase in which millions of Americans have resigned themselves to allowing elites to construct one sort of reality, while they disengage from it and privately live quite another.


the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
martin was, technically, a child, but he was also 6'2" and walking with his hood up on a warm florida night; there had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood; there is NOTHING wrong with asking such a person to identify himself

We don't know the details yet and may never know, but it's no surprise to see those on the right quick to support a LEO wannabe with a gun vs. an unarmed black person who was doing nothing wrong.

He was "technically" a child. He WAS a child. Interesting use of technically there.

It sounds like he had his hood down until he realized he was being followed then put it up. And it was raining. Even suggesting blame for wearing a hood up is like blaming a rape victim for being dressed provocatively. It doesn't justify anything.

There is nothing wrong with asking a person to identify themselves, but if that person refuses or ignores the asker, they can do NOTHING about it.

Bottom line Zimmerman was pursuing Martin. If we take Zimmerman at his word that Martin attacked him (which sounds like BS to me by how Z describes it, why is someone going to all of a sudden risk their own safety and attack someone else who had 100 pounds on him?) Z still pursued him which led to the confrontation. Even if it was self defense Z should have been arrested and shares blame for creating the situation.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
right, i see someone 6'2" and i automatically think "child"

and nobody is "defending" zimmerman; we're simply responding to the unhinged rhetoric, the seemingly instinctive accusations of racism, the conspiracy theories, the fact that a militant group has offered a "bounty" for zimmerman (for what, his...capture?...he's not even a fugitive), the fact that spike lee tweeted an incorrect address for zimmerman and forced an elderly couple to flee their home and go into hiding, the fact that roseanne barr has tweeted the address for zimmerman's parents, the fact that a rap artist has released a song calling for violence, the fact that members of congress--our supposed "lawmakers"--are trashing the legal system by declaring zimmerman guilty of first degree murder and racial profiling, etc.

if zimmerman is guilty of stalking and murdering martin, he should receive the death penalty...but he should first receive a fair trial



The Media and Black Homicide Victims

By Heather Mac Donald
March 29, 2012 7:00 A.M.

Cable mogul Evan Shapiro had a stunningly clueless Trayvon Martin entry on Huffington Post yesterday asking: Why doesn’t the media cover more black crime victims?

Shapiro, the president of indie cable broadcaster IFC, should pose the same question to Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and every member of the black protest establishment: Why don’t you protest more black crime victims? The answer would be the same in all cases: Because the only black victims who interest the race industry and its mainstream media handmaidens are blacks who have been killed by “white” civilians, including honorary whites like Martin’s killer George Zimmerman, or blacks who have been killed or offended by the police (black officers will do here in a pinch).

Unfortunately, there are very few such victims. Ninety-three percent of all black homicide casualties from 1980 to 2008 were killed by other blacks, and are thus of no interest whatsoever to today’s race advocates, because they fail to support the crucial story line that blacks remain under siege by a racist white power structure.

The coverage of New York City’s West Indian Day Parade in September 2011 exemplifies this rule. The New York Times and other local outlets spilled an enormous amount of ink on an altercation between a black city councilman, Jumaane Williams, and the New York Police Department. Williams had tried to cross a police line, and, when he was not allowed to pass, got into a scuffle with some officers. He was then handcuffed and held until the police verified his identity. The city’s Public Advocate, a New York State Assemblyman, and Williams charged the police with racism, claiming that the treatment of Williams exemplified the “siege mentality” with which the police treat black men in New York City. To this day, the Williams detention is regularly mentioned by the New York Times in its constant coverage of the alleged racism of the NYPD.

What else happened on that parade day in 2011? A black-on-black bloodbath:

In the pre-dawn celebrations known as J’ouvert that open the parade, one man was fatally shot, crowds were sprayed with gunfire, and several people were stabbed. A shooting at a McDonald’s at 6 am triggered a stampede. The police repeatedly had to break up mobs that formed after gunfire. . . .

Later that day, a shootout near the parade route killed its intended victim as well as a 55-year-old mother who had been standing nearby; the two police officers who responded to the murders were also shot. Police also arrested someone in the vicinity of the parade who shot off several rounds without hitting anyone. The day’s violence would have likely been even worse had officers not removed 15 guns from spectators; each of those potentially life-saving stops would undoubtedly be condemned as racial profiling by the ACLU and its backers in the City Council and in Albany.

Previous West Indian Day Parades were hardly more pacific; the violence includes a man shot in the leg in 2007; another leg shooting and a stabbing in 2006; a man shot to death in 2005; and in 2003, a stabbing in the neck and someone who, from his perch on a parade float, shot into a group of spectators and killed one of them.

None of this violence was given the intense and loving press treatment accorded to the detention of Jumaane Williams. In fact, it was barely mentioned at all, even though, arguably, it is more serious to be shot dead than to be briefly detained by the police. Nothing prevented Al Sharpton from protesting the killings and stabbings that day. However, only Councilman Williams falls into the favored category of, in this case, black victim offended by the police, and so his detention was the only event that day worth noting.

On Halloween 2010, five-year-old Aaron Shannon Jr. was playing in his family’s backyard in his Spiderman costume in South Central Los Angeles. Two gangbangers from the Kitchen Crips, seeking to avenge a previous gang shooting, shot randomly towards some houses and killed Shannon, also wounding the boy’s grandfather and uncle. Sharpton, Inc., was perfectly free to make the names of Shannon’s killers, Leonard Hall Jr., 21, and Marcus Denson, 18, as infamous as that of George Zimmerman. But the race baiters never showed up. The killing aroused not the slightest interest from them because it was useless in aiding the white racism conceit. And so no one outside Shannon’s immediate circle remembers today who Hall and Denson are, even though Shannon was at least as innocent as Trayvon Martin (whose image as combined Eagle Scout-St. Francis of Assisi has in any case come under some stress of late, information, that, if true, is not irrelevant to assessing Zimmerman’s self-defense claim.)

We know the names of virtually every unarmed black civilian shot by the New York Police Department in recent years — Amadou Diallo, Patrick Dorismond, Sean Bell — as well we should. To the extent that botched police tactics or training contributed to these tragic killings, the incidents are rightly publicized so that they can be prevented from reoccurring. Here’s the difference between these killings — they are a tiny handful — and the routine black-on-black killings that occur by the dozen every day across the country. The officers who mistakenly shot their victims thinking they were facing a deadly threat set out that morning to protect people, often in minority neighborhoods, not to injure anyone. A significant number of black-on-black shootings, however, like many shootings among all races, are done in cold blood.

Here’s another difference between police killings of blacks, white-on-black killings, and black-on-black killings: Sheer numbers. There were nine civilian victims of police gunfire last year in New York City; there were several hundred black homicide victims in the city, almost all shot by other blacks or Hispanics, none of them given substantial press coverage. Nationwide, in 2005, there were 2,646 black victims of other blacks, compared to 349 black victims of whites or Hispanics. The relative rates of interracial killings are wildly skewed towards black on white killings: There were two and a half times as many white and Hispanic victims of civilian black killers in 2009 as there were black victims of civilian white and Hispanic killers, even though the black population is one-sixth that of whites and Hispanics combined. Yet to read columnists such as the Times’s Charles Blow or to listen to the professional racial extortionists, it is the police and whites who are the biggest threat to blacks, not other blacks.

A further prudential reason why the routine black gangbanger victim gets so little coverage: He is not particularly appealing. Though he had the misfortune of being the victim that day, he could just as easily have been the perpetrator the next day. That is true of many white-on-white homicides as well.

Shapiro, of course, has another explanation for the absence of coverage of most black crime victims: The media is too white, especially in its upper ranks. The “stunning under-representation of minorities at the TOP of our national and local news organizations creates an institutional lack of empathy for minority victims of violent crime,” he writes. Has he noticed that Trayvon Martin is not exactly being ignored? As soon as the media got wind of the story, it ran with it. When Amadou Diallo was shot by four NYPD officers in 1999, the New York Times ran three and a half articles a day on the incident for several months.

If Sharpton protested outside the jail cell of the routine robber or gunman in East New York with as much zeal as he devotes to allegedly racist whites or to the police, if he ever stigmatized black killers of blacks, the phony problem of “racial profiling” might go away, since it is merely an epiphenomenon of black crime. Protesting or covering black crime, however, would require bringing out some uncomfortable truths, such as the fact that the homicide rate among black males of the ages of 14 to 24 is nearly ten times that of white and Hispanic young males combined. Evan Shapiro mentions the elevated rates of black homicide victimization but somehow neglects to include the black homicide commission rate. His column flawlessly exemplifies the ignorance of the Hollywood elites regarding today’s racial realities.

— Heather Mac Donald is a contributing editor of City Journal and the author of Are Cops Racist?

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
oops, one wrong fact

In your dreams. It's a constant cascade of misinformation from you.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
"In order to receive a "fair" trail, there must first be a trial.

That is the issue."

ok, but there has to be sufficient evidence to formally charge somebody; then, there has to be sufficient evidence to take the case to trial


again, zimmerman was cuffed and taken into custody, not, as some seem to suggest, patted on the back and sent on his merry way

it appears the da ordered zimmerman released that night based on the LAW (the law seems clear to me, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be amended or even repealed, but, until that time, it must be followed) but that doesn't mean the investigation ended, either; the police can't just hold anybody indefinitely without a charge

and a trial might still happen, but i think it would be wrong if the trial happens just because of political pressure
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
Personally, I'd rather wait to hear the evidence, but I would like to point out that the common notion that it is only the job of the police to confront criminals is disingenuous. The main job of police is to clean up messes. Being pro-active is great, but they can't be everywhere at once.

Not everywhere, but they were there in Sanford. You're overlooking the fact that the cops were on the way and that he was told not to follow him.

There is a whole line of argument initiated by academics, but actually implemented in e.g. NYC that it is more beneficial for the police to actively prevent the messes than to clean them up. In the situation under discussion here, had Z-man obeyed the dispatcher there would not have been a big mess, the cops could have confonted Martin and busted him for formerly possessing marijuana or some such.

I'm inclined to agree that it will all end up a "civil rights" violation.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
somebody should be arrested for this:

https://twitter.com/#!/KillZimmerman

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
A 140 pound 6'2" kid.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
The case of Emmett Till.

The defense asserted that Bryant and Milam [two of the murderers] had taken Till, but had let him go.

Sound familiar? Z-man asserts that he "lost" Martin and then Martin snuck up and punched him in the nose from behind.



Suppose

Z-man decides he's gonna rape a woman. Follows(stalks) her. When questioned he states that he figured she was a prostitute walking the streets.

Z-man is an aspiring car-jacker. He follows(stalks) a driver in the parking lot. When questioned he states he thought the car was stolen.

Z-man...

Why were you carrying a gun? Because it's legal. I carry, therefore I am.

These are hypetheticals, don't wet yourself. Substitute J-man if you'd like.



graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
walking with his hood up on a warm florida night;

The news reports say it was a cold rainy night.

The weather data for Sanford, Florida for February 26th supports this:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

High: 69
Low: 53
Precipitation (rain): 0.20 in.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
Kid should have told Zimmerman, "go ahead call the LEO"

Kid should have gotten of the phone with gf and called 911 himself.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
A 140 pound 6'2" kid

You sure about that weight?
Do you know anyone of that height / weight?
I see skinny, strong climbers all the time, but I don't think I've seen anone that tall, that light. Not saying it's impossible, but that sounds fishy . . .
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
blahblah:
You sure about that weight?
Do you know anyone of that height / weight?
I see skinny, strong climbers all the time, but I don't think I've seen anone that tall, that light. Not saying it's impossible, but that sounds fishy . . .

Police have not moved from their official statement of the shooting. But as the controversy grows, so does the number of voices disputing the official version that watch captain George Zimmerman gave to police: that the six-foot, three-inch, 140-pound teen assaulted him when Zimmerman, 28, tried to question him. In fear for his life, he pulled Kel Tek 9mm handgun from his waistband and shot.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/v-fullstory/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
"Ah, I'm finally getting it... so, because he looked like an adult black man, that made Tayvon a threat duly subject to gunfire. Sounds reasonable"


unhinged; you know i was responding to the claims that zimmerman killed "a child", which, you know, implies zimmerman knew he was only 17

unhinged; you, again, claim zimmerman shot him because he was black, or, specifically, because "he looked...black"; you have no PROOF that this was a racially motivated crime (or a crime, at all) and, of course, ignore my repeated reminders that zimmerman has BLACK friends defending him (one who remains anonymous because he fears for his safety--oh, brave new world that a man fears for his safety if he speaks up for his friend)

"Because Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight!"

unhinged; again, you imply that zimmerman was "stalking" martin or was looking for somebody to "fight" or, since he was carrying his gun, somebody to kill




"All of which wouldn't have apologists now look like such scum bags for trying to justify why it's perfectly okay an unarmed youth is dead for no good reason."

unhinged; NOBODY is claiming it's "perfectly okay" that martin is dead; NOBODY is happy that he's dead; and NOBODY is claiming there's a "good reason" he's dead...we are, in fact, claiming there's a reason he's dead but NOBODY (besides zimmerman) knows what that reason is even though many people are claiming they do know; we're simply claiming there's no way, based on the evidence that has been made public, to know if zimmerman committed murder (1 or 2) or manslaughter or any crime at all; in fact, the evidence released so far indicates that he acted within the law (and that's not a defense of the law); we're simply trying to quell the rage before somebody else gets hurt

"And, before we get into that can of worms, I am pro-gun ownership, just not pro psycho idiot"

unhinged: you have no way of knowing if zimmerman is "psycho"; i agree, he put himself in a bad situation, but that's not a crime; and, yes, i'll take the word of his BLACK friends that zimmerman is a good man and a good citizen over the rantings of sharpton, jackson, farrakhan, spike lee, roseanne barr, doctor f, bruce kay, etc.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 29, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
fact:

none of us know the whole story. only what the news channels has sppon fed us and they tend to spoon feed us the stuff that sells.

some of you guys would have been lynching people early on back in the old west times....

tragic? yes. but face it, if you were attacked and knocked down and afraid for your life and you were carrying, would you shoot to save yourself?
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
unhinged; you know i was responding to the claims that zimmerman killed "a child", which, you know, implies zimmerman knew he was only 17

He killed a child, whether or not he knew how old the kid was. Age is objective, not subjective.

unhinged; you, again, claim zimmerman shot him because he was black, or, specifically, because "he looked...black"; you have no PROOF that this was a racially motivated crime (or a crime, at all) and, of course, ignore my repeated reminders that zimmerman has BLACK friends defending him (one who remains anonymous because he fears for his safety--oh, brave new world that a man fears for his safety if he speaks up for his friend)

Other than he called the kid a f*#king coon?

"Because Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight!"

unhinged; again, you imply that zimmerman was "stalking" martin or was looking for somebody to "fight" or, since he was carrying his gun, somebody to kill

It was implied that Zimmerman was stalking the kid when Zimmerman left his car to stalk the kid, don't you think?




"All of which wouldn't have apologists now look like such scum bags for trying to justify why it's perfectly okay an unarmed youth is dead for no good reason."

unhinged; NOBODY is claiming it's "perfectly okay" that martin is dead; NOBODY is happy that he's dead; and NOBODY is claiming there's a "good reason" he's dead...we are, in fact, claiming there's a reason he's dead but NOBODY (besides zimmerman) knows what that reason is even though many people are claiming they do know; we're simply claiming there's no way, based on the evidence that has been made public, to know if zimmerman committed murder (1 or 2) or manslaughter or any crime at all; in fact, the evidence released so far indicates that he acted within the law (and that's not a defense of the law); we're simply trying to quell the rage before somebody else gets hurt

All well and good.

"And, before we get into that can of worms, I am pro-gun ownership, just not pro psycho idiot"

unhinged: you have no way of knowing if zimmerman is "psycho"; i agree, he put himself in a bad situation, but that's not a crime; and, yes, i'll take the word of his BLACK friends that zimmerman is a good man and a good citizen over the rantings of sharpton, jackson, farrakhan, spike lee, roseanne barr, doctor f, bruce kay, etc.

Forget the strawmen. Let's look at the best case scenario for Zimmerman. He left his car armed, pursued a kid who was guilty of nothing more than walking home. The kid confronted his stalker, got the best of the situation and got shot.

That's the best case scenario for Zimmerman. Ugly, isn't it?

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
You can't hit someone if you are afraid for your life? I thought that was the whole point of the Florida law. Don't back down, take it to your adversary.

Lesson: use a gun, not your fists.
nature

climber
CO
Mar 29, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
no kidding monolith. apparently the biggest mistake here was Trayvon not packing and defending himself (under the FL law). Of course then Trayvon would be in custody...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
The way the law is written and has been interpreted by the couts is just crazy legal murder.

Two neighbors argue about trash bag limits on collection day. One shoots the other unarmed man in the chest with a 9mm and walks. FL Stand your ground.

Man goes nuts on basketball court. goes home comes back with gun. shoots and kills the unarmed man who tries to disarm him. FL stand your ground.

Wanna be cop follows and intimidates black kid ( the text messages to his GF confirm he felt threatened) Unarmed kid ends up shot and dead. FL stand your ground.

There are hundreds more of these. About eighty per year since 2006. Guys like Buley and Ron A, Donald etc who keep voiceing support for this law are sick individuals.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
There is a lot of opportunism going on. There are a lot of people ready to condemn Z without all the facts. I've seen video of rallies with mob mentality that would lynch Z if he was there. That's wrong, and if you are against that fine. But many are defending Z by attacking Martin. Or justifying what is known that Z did which led to the confrontation.

Forget the strawmen. Let's look at the best case scenario for Zimmerman. He left his car armed, pursued a kid who was guilty of nothing more than walking home. The kid confronted his stalker, got the best of the situation and got shot.

Much is unclear. Hopefully we'll know more (I'd really like to know who was screaming for help). But given the best case scenario for Z above it's BS he was not charged and a thorough and logical investigation was done.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
He wasn't exactly told not to follow.

The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that".

Hair splitting perhaps, but such details get scrutinized.





Still waiting to hear all the evidence,...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
I have done body guard training, took the courses passed the test been licenced to be an armed bodyguard. There is absolutly no way many of these FL shootings would go unprosecuted in VT. They have removed all the obsticals from the ROE that are supposed to keep you on your toes and make damn sure that your shot is justified before you send that round down range. Once you pull that trigger you can NEVER get that round back or reverse whatever consequences it causes.

The ROE for trained combat troops in Afganistan right now is much more restrictive than the ROE for untrained gunslingers in Forida.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
your claims of "stalking" imply zimmerman intended to kill him from the start; there's NO PROOF of that

it also implies, if you know anything about hunting, that zimmerman had his gun drawn, ready to shoot; there's NO PROOF of that; but this also implies martin attacked a man (according to eyewitness accounts) holding a gun, which certainly means he acted stupidly


all we KNOW is that zimmerman was FOLLOWING martin; was that stupid? in hindsight, yes; in the moment, not necessarily

would i have done it? if i was on neighborhood watch and there had been a rash of burglaries and the person in question was not familiar to me in my gated community and i had a cell phone to call the cops...maybe

so you claim it doesn't matter that zimmerman didn't know martin was only 17 even if he was 6'2"; so, if martin was only 5'2", it wouldn't be so bad that zimmerman killed him if martin was 18???




Studly

Trad climber
WA
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
So if I'm a black man or teenager in Florida and I am wearing a hoody and I see George Zimmerman, it seems like I can legally blow him away because I would be in fear of my life knowing that he kills black people in hoodies. No wonder Zimmerman is holded up. They better send him to prison because if that boy is out walking the streets again he is going to look like a piece of swiss cheese when theyre done with him. and all perfectly legal.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
Fattrad- I don't know much about this subject and hopefully you can edumacate me a little. Do you think the proper way to go about this would be a Grand Jury investigation to decide if there is probable cause for an arrest? What are the option for law enforcement at this point? Thanks for any feedback.


My gut instinct is to declare Zimmerman guilty and hang him myself. But my gut instinct has been wrong before. I'd like see justice served, not revenge. I guess what I'm saying is this case has created a lot of internal conflicts within myself. My emotional self wants one thing while my rational self wants something else.


I just listened to an interview with the victims dad. My heart goes out to his family, I hope they can eventually find peace. Such a senseless tragedy. :-(
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
He intended to confront him. I'd call that stalking. First following in his car, then getting out. If he had just stayed in his car, it would have come under the usual duty of a Neighborhood Watch. Watch and report.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
Bookworm you are one sick dude. read the transcripts of the 911 call from z man. even without the coon refrence it is the classic dialouge of a man on the hunt. I know a thing or two about hunting.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 29, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
Nobody wants another lynching. What many want is thorough due process. For both sides.

none of us know all the facts. thats a fact jack.

let due process run its course.

when this story first hit i was with you guys ready to string zman to the highest tree.

now, it would seem that of course zman screwed up. i agree. but if the kid attacked him when zman was headed back to his vehicle, then this is one of those totally f*#ked up situations where the kid paid for his life by thinking he could just go thump someone.

bottom line.......none of you know all the facts. therefore, you are ignorant of all of the facts, therefore, you and I are simply spoutikng of what the press feeds us......

you guys do remember WMD's in Iraq right? lets bomb the f*#kers right???

still willing to make decisions on less than the facts?

edit:

i quoted this because although this guy disagreed with me i totally agree with the statement in quotes.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
Ok dead serious on this one. Rules Of Engagement =ROE

ROE for highly trained coalition troops in Afganistan right now is that the person Must not only be armed but aso be engageing you. If you do not see the busniss end of that AK or RPG poining directly at you, you may not engage. In many instances the US troops must wait untill the haji's actually fire on them to engage.
Florida ROE for untrained gunslingers. Any time you are afraid for your life you may open fire without requireing the person you shoot to be armed. There is also no requirement that your life actually be in danger only that you feared that your life was in danger.

Repuglicans, the most cowardly species on the planet these days.......

BTW fatty has it mostly right on this one. Zimmerman screwed up real bad and in most states even if Trevan engaged him in a fist fight zimmerman still goes down for instigateing the confrontation that ended in a homocide.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
I imagine if everyone who feels strongly about this case wrote to Disneyworld in Florida and told them that you would not be bringing your family this year due to this murder and the Stand your ground law, that the law would change pretty quickly. Because in Florida, money is what the rich folks that hide in their condos and big homes and make these laws understand. Get the Theme Parks in Florida concerned, and you will see change happen pretty quickly.
Maybe even start a boycott of Florida business and orange juice on Facebook. It can't help but take off like a raging wildfire. Hit em where it counts.
nature

climber
CO
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
if Z stays free some advice for him: move to a state w/o the stand your ground law.

someone will pick a fight and will shoot him and will claim they felt threatened if he stays in his hood and especially if he stays neighborhood watch.
nature

climber
CO
Mar 29, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
There would be no trial, that you patiently advise everyone to wait for, if there was not the public outcry and discussion that you advocate against.

worth repeating
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Dr. F how do you know they were Cubanos? brown?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
^^^ everybody's got too much time on their hands (including me).
But, you gotta take 'Zimmy' off that list. Zimmy is Bob Dylan and he wears a hoodie.

You know all those h-angels at Altamont were acting in self-defense too. F*ckin' coon had a gun didn't he? The neighborhood bullies rough up another black guy and he pulls his weapon out (in self-defense) and he ends up with a knife through his chest.


recognize z-man here?


First 40 seconds of this oughta do it "hey people ... hey people ... c'mon let's be cool ... "

[Click to View YouTube Video]






Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
well if they were in Florida they must be Cuban...or Dominican, Haitian, Seminole, Jewish, Don Johnson...


..wait. Is this a Politard thread? out.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
@wanted poster

You know it's the leftists, cuz if it was the rightists, there'd be bullet holes in Z-man's head and an X drawn through his face.

How many of these posters have been posted by sick-ass right wingers who advocate killing doctors?

It was the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. Florida woulda loved 'em if only they hadn't been f*ckin' coons. Rag up and bang.

Coward and liar that he is, z-man never woulda challenged a Panther. Not that they were right, but they were not the chickensh*t that z-man is.




Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Good point manzanita man. They have this irrational obsession with white on black murder. It's absurd.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Easy there folks.......
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:06am PT
WHY does the MEDIA focus on

the media focuses on whatever Rupert tells the media to focus on... journalism is long dead.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:20am PT
Armed man kills unarmed juvenile on a public street and is not charged.

FACKT
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:28am PT
then WHY does the MEDIA focus on RACE whenever given a chance?

Good question!

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/
nature

climber
CO
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:29am PT
StahlBro +1


oh Donald it must suck not having your brother skipt here as now your pathetic whines fall on deaf ears.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2012 - 12:54am PT
definitely not bursting any bubbles Donald...

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 30, 2012 - 01:05am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
correct. Agree
rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 01:24am PT
The NWP (New White Panthers) are offering a $1,000 bounty on Spike Lee. On 2nd thought , spike lee lower case. He is a bigot, accused of hate crimes & must be brought to justice. A Chip in account in forth coming....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 30, 2012 - 02:11am PT


Emmett Louis Till (July 25, 1941 – August 28, 1955)
Murdered in Mississippi at the age of 14.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 30, 2012 - 02:21am PT
What's that got to do with this case?
Degaine

climber
Mar 30, 2012 - 03:26am PT
chaz wrote:

What's that got to do with this case?


What do the Black Panthers - or any of what bookworm and DT are spewing - have to do with this case?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:07am PT
Yeah - What donald said, he got a purty mouth.

FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:56am PT
Riley Wyna - Dr. F I don't usual agree with you guys ----- but Thank you for standing up for justice & against the sick blatant racism on this thread.
Fattrad I rarely agree with you --- but thank you for trying to stay centered & wait for the facts.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Mar 30, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Looks like Bobby Rush isn't the only one in his district that considers hoodies a fashion statement.



http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/03/30/Hoodie-Wearing-Gunmen-Kill-1-Wound-5-in-Rushs-Chicago-District
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
Dude it's stupid on both sides ----
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
Jekyll and Hyde




Zimmerman, the 28-year-old Sanford, Fla., neighborhood watch volunteer who shot the unarmed 17-year-old Martin to death last month, was fired from a job securing illegal house parties for “being too aggressive,” according to the New York Daily News, which quoted a former colleague of Zimmerman’s. According to the co-worker, Zimmerman worked for two agencies that provided security for house parties from 2001 to 2005.

“Usually he was just a cool guy,” said the former co-worker, who the newspaper didn't name. “But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When dude snapped, he snapped.” The Daily News said Zimmerman earned $50 to $100 a night for the parties. He was fired for being too aggressive with patrons.

“He had a temper and he became a liability,” the newspaper quoted the former co-worker as saying. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
I was not trying to prove anything


just adding some new information to the mix


is that ok?

do you have to prove something to post on this thread?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:26pm PT

no need to ask me when you can answer your own question


why don't you exercise personal responsibility and read the link I provided?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
Manazita, You are definatly one totaly sick dude. perhaps winning the grand prize. Meathead dumbass racist of the thread. Quite an accomplishment.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2012 - 07:11am PT
Please don't insult rednecks like that. Many myself included are damn good people, don't watch NASCAR or buy into the repuglican fantasy....
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 31, 2012 - 10:44am PT
You know the term redneck comes from the coal miners unions. The union men would tie a red scarf around their neck to ID them selfs form the thugs hired by the coal companies.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2012 - 10:56am PT
I thought it had something to do with working outside and getting the back of your neck sunburned? of course the modern version are mostly wannabes who work @ Wallmart and spend their money on NASCAR stickers....
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:28am PT
There is no need to prove a ignorant racist wrong.
michae1

Gym climber
san jose
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:36am PT
i have noticed that when some of the people here , don't like or agree with someone it starts to become nothing more then name calling, just saying
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:51am PT
when there's no place for reason in a debate, there's is no reason to debate...


WBraun

climber
Mar 31, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
i have noticed that when some of the people here , don't like or agree with someone it starts to become nothing more then name calling, just saying


This forum is not a structured moderated debate forum.

It's still the wild west. There's gunslingers at every turn.

If you're shot at better duck or shoot back. :-)

If you want to debate in a civil matter then go to court with a judge to moderate.

If you can't handle some peoples replies then just skip over them and ignore them.

Or are you that weak and fall apart if someone calls you an idiot, stupid or moron?

Americans are stupid .... :-)

lol


FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 31, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
There are some far right folks on this thread that have questioned what happened & have said wait for things to sort them selfs out, without showing any racism. With those people I can have a discussion. With out right sick racist there is no room for discussion. All you can do is point out what they are.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 31, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
That kid in the hoodie looked suspicious, so what. Call 911 whine about it and forget it.

The idiot ignored his instructions and training and went after the kid. He created a confrontation that did not exist, it was not needed.

If the kid was being an ass and the guy with the guy was being an ass and the kid hit the guy in the nose, the guy shot him dead.

There's the evidence. The kid is dead. The guy killed him because he failed to use common sense and follow the rules. He is protected by a law that was not intended for use in this situation. He needs to be prosecuted on those grounds. He's wide open for civil prosecution.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-video-shows-injury-george-zimmermans/story?id=16055412#.T3nrtvBSS8A

New report supports Zimmerman's claim that he had a significant injury to the back of his head at time of arrest.

This doesn't fully exonerates him, but it supports the guess as to what happened that many of us have: Zimmerman was being a weird jerk related at least in part to wannabe cop syndrome complete with racial profiling, a fight ensued, and the guy with the gun is suspected of murder of the guy without the gun is dead.

A big unknown is how much Trayvon was a completely innocent victim and how much did he escalated situation that was, at least initially, not of his own making. We'll probably never get to the bottom of that one.

While this is an interesting case, I'm not sure why it's captivated the American public.
Check this out for a recent, crazy hate crime that seems a lot more shocking to me:
http://kdvr.com/2012/04/01/man-shot-to-death-after-early-morning-traffic-altercation/

Maybe no one cares because no whites involved (as victims or perps)?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
If Obama had a son, he'd look like Trayvon...

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
"Maybe no one cares because no whites involved (as victims or perps)?"
Or maybe because they are some POS Gang Bangers, Drug Dealers or some other from of criminal that is killed and visits most large ERs on most days in America?

No, the victim in the Denver case I referred to was a black immigrant from Sudan, who was gunned down in front of his family by Hispanics (in a stolen car) who had thrown bottles at the black guy and yelled the N word.
They had the black guy's brother on the local TV news--he held the victim in has arms as he died. I know nothing about the black guy or his family, but pretty outrageous that you suggest that he may have been a gang banger or drug dealer. Absolutely zero evidence of that. (And remember, your favorite victim Trayvon was under suspension for drugs.)

The victim in the Denver caase had called the police, who told him to wait at a certain place for police to arrive. But by killers were faster than the police. Maybe a lesson for some of you liberals who don't think people should worry about their safety--just call cops if there's any trouble?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Enhance

I watched Blade Runner recently, don't remember seeing all those folks in it. Super Editor's cut?

Do microscopes, telescopes, MRI's, X-Rays etc. help us see something new or just help us find what we already think is there?

Was Z-man out West recently, endurance runner Micah True was found dead, might have been wearing a hoodie.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Wait, didn't Obama have an unarmed man shot????? OBL

I believe it was a group decision.

Don't we have to have a full investigation before statements like this can be made? Likewise, we probably need to have an investigation of whether the investigators mentioned above are competant to perform such an investigation.

....

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
the Fool blurted:

Wait, didn't Obama have an unarmed man shot????? OBL


damn right President Obama ordered the SEALS to kill that bastard who killed 3000 Americans.

Unlike Republican Bush who gave up even trying to find Bin Laden.

And get used to it, President Obama will kill anyone he considers a threat to the security of the United States.

Little pussies Romney and Santorum would probably "pray" rather than kill em.

Grow up Fattrad
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
fattrad
I'm not sure if Zimmerman is guilty or innocent at this point.
Guilty of what?

Do you think he's NOT guilty of chasing down a young man in the dark?
NOT guilty of accosting him?
NOT guilty of ignoring the dispatcher's advice (legally not a "command") to back off?
Did Zimmerman have ANY reason to believe that Trayvon had committed a crime?
OR that Trayvon was going to assault him before Zimmerman started his pursuit?
What LEGAL obligation was Trayvon under to halt when Zimmerman started to pursue him?

Zimmerman certainly created the confrontation. What exactly transpired during the confrontation is yet to be known. It's also largely irrelevant.

The problems with this sort of law in this situation should now be obvious.
You have untrained people, who think they are protecting their community, on the street with weapons. They are also NOT in the LEO chain of command. Ergo there is no LEO chain of responsibility.
He's not in uniform, has no badge.
The very definition of Loose Cannon. Or we could substitute the term "vigilante".
Did the dispatcher have the legal authority to call Zimmerman back? I don't think so. If he did, Zimmerman then failed to follow the directions of an officer.

Now think about it from Trayvon's point of view. Young man walking down a residential street at night. Minding his own business. Thinking of whatever he wanted to do when he got back to the house. Suddenly there's an older man chasing him down the street, yelling at him. So Trayvon has to make a split second choice, run like hell or turn and confront his pursuer. Again we don't know yet exactly what happened. Whether he had tried to flee and Zimmerman caught up with him, or if he turned towards Zimmerman, Trayvon had every reason to believe he was going to be attacked. He therefore had EVERY right to defend himself.
That's the sad, yet inevitable ending.
That's the root of the problem with this cockamaney law. And why more episodes like this are inevitable.

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
George Zimmerman, the man who shot and killed 17-year-old teen Trayvon Martin in Florida last month, was not the one screaming for help on the 911 tapes of the incident, according to two forensic experts who analyzed the evidence.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120401/zimmerman-not-the-one-screaming-911-tapes-trayvon-martin
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
THAT CHANGES INTO SELP-DEFENSE

Precisely......but the other way around........it's entirely possible, even likely, Trayvon was whacking this nut so he could get away. And he had EVERY right to.
I've been assaulted on campus at night....by two (not one) college red-shirted football players (they were wearing their letter jackets).
Because I had long hair and a beard and it was the 60's.
They had been following me and then yelled at me, I turned around, one of them slugged me and I knocked him flat on his arse. I had EVERY right. Or I had every right to run like hell if I'd suspected he was going to slug me. By the time his buddy picked him up off the ground I was running like the wind. That's the way it's supposed to end when no one's carrying a firearm.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
THAT CHANGES INTO SELP-DEFENSE

Nope, they were both standing their ground. Who kills first wins.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
It's self defense when the pursued has to defend himself against a pursuer. Even more so when then pursuer has no legal reason for the pursuit.

So many what if's and how comes and why's at this point
No fattrad.
Please read my first few statements. These are KNOWN facts. They are known now and they were known to the Sanford PD at the time.

Trayvon had committed no crime (and none had been reported that evening)
Trayvon was unarmed.
He was pursued by Zimmerman.
The dispatcher had told Zimmerman not to pursue.
They ended up in an altercation.
Zimmerman shot Trayvon dead.
Zimmerman had no official LEO capacity.

The only ifs concern the final face-off before Zimmerman shot Trayvon.

Oh,
And the Sanford Police didn't arrest Zimmerman even though they KNEW he had killed Trayvon; and they let Trayvon lie in the morgue for 3 days.

What you did or didn't do as a trained and deputized LEO is irrelevant.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
Zimmerman did have the right to walk up to Martin, and say something. Even if he had to follow Martin for a while to make contact.

You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida.

I still don't know why Zimmerman hasn't been charged with something.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
I have faith in your Riley! :)

They need to use Zimmerman as an example.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 2, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
Chaz
largely I agree with you.
You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida

Except your final conclusion "even if you are in Florida". Apparently you can, and in 19 other states.
Jorroh

climber
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
Lets face it, this is the sort of stuff that happens when you let an organization like the NRA write legislation.

tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
I see the problem is that my understanding of the stand your ground law is that it was written so that the average citizen that is being attacked by a thug and in fear for his or her life can use deadly force to protect themselves vs. having to flea.

As to Zimmerman, and others who for whatever reason are essentially looking for trouble, I don't think the law should apply. I consider a large percentage of police officers being insuficiently trained to be carying firearms. Security guards, neighborhood watch etc have IMHO no business carying firearms. Tazers and pepper spray with training, ok, but they should not have firearms.

To me the entire sad event really needs to be broken up and addressed in several ways.

First and foremost a family is grieving the sensless loss of their child, cut down in the prime of life. I can't imagine the grief they are going through, and turning it into a national media and political event is disgusting.

The second issue is whether or not there is any basis to claims of this being racially motivated. Unfortunatley I don't see how this issue can be accurately assessed and dealt with as it has blown up before the facts have been adressed.

Finally the stand your ground law, which I don't see getting a fair shake due to the racial overtones that have overwelmed supporting a grieving family and being able to investigate the case in an unbiased way to see whether or not Mr. Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
Jorroh nails it:

Lets face it, this is the sort of stuff that happens when you let an organization like the NRA write legislation.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
You know all those h-angels at Altamont were acting in self-defense too. F*ckin' coon had a gun didn't he? The neighborhood bullies rough up another black guy and he pulls his weapon out (in self-defense) and he ends up with a knife through his chest.

I looked at the Meredith Hunter entry on Wikipedia. Comparing him to Trevon Martin is quite a stretch...

(excerpt)
Fueled by LSD and large amounts of amphetamines, the crowd had also become antagonistic and unpredictable, attacking each other, the Angels, and the performers. By the time the Rolling Stones took stage in the early evening, the mood had taken a decidedly ugly turn as numerous fights began to erupt between Angels and crowd members and within the crowd itself. Projectiles started being thrown at the stage. The Angels retaliated by hurling back full cans of beer from their stockpile and swinging sawed-off weighted pool cues and motorcycle chains to drive the crowd farther back from the stage.

Lead singer Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones (who had already been punched by a concertgoer within seconds of emerging from his helicopter[4]) was visibly intimidated by the unruly situation, urging everyone to "Just be cool down in the front there, don't push around." Within a minute of starting their third song, "Sympathy for the Devil", a fight erupted in the front of the crowd, at the foot of the stage. After a lengthy pause and another appeal for calm, the band restarted "Sympathy" and continued their set with less incident until the start of "Under My Thumb". At this point, two of the Hell's Angels got into a scuffle with Hunter when he attempted to get onstage with other fans. One of the Hell's Angels grabbed Hunter's head, punched him, and chased him back into the crowd.

After a few seconds Hunter angrily returned to the front of the stage where, according to Gimme Shelter producer Porter Bibb, Hunter's girlfriend Patty Bredahoff found him and tearfully begged him to calm down and move farther back in the crowd with her. By her report he was enraged, irrational and "so high he could barely walk".[5] Rock Scully, who could see the audience clearly from the top of a truck by the stage, noticed Hunter clearly in the crowd, remembering, that “I saw what he was looking at, that he was crazy, he was on drugs, and that he had murderous intent. There was no doubt in my mind that he intended to do terrible harm to Mick or somebody in the Rolling Stones, or somebody on that stage."[6]

At this point, footage from the documentary shows Hunter (seen in the film in a lime-green suit) drawing a long-barreled black revolver from his jacket and pointing it in the air.[7] The film clearly shows a bright orange flash at the end of the pistol in one frame. Porter Bibb says it is impossible to determine whether the flash is a gunshot, a reflection, or something else.[8] The film then shows Hells Angel Alan Passaro, armed with a knife, running at Hunter from the side, parrying the gun with his left hand and stabbing him with his right. The footage was shot by Eric Saarinen who was on stage taking pictures of the crowd. Saarinen was unaware of having caught the incident on film. This was discovered more than a week later when rushes were screened in the New York offices of the Maysles Brothers.

In the film sequence, lasting about two seconds, a six-foot opening in the crowd appears, leaving Patty Bredahoff in the center. Hunter enters the opening from the left, his hand rises and the silhouette of a revolver is clearly seen against Bredahoff's bright crocheted dress. Passaro is seen entering from the right and delivering two stabs as he pushes Hunter off screen. The opening closes around Bredahoff. Passaro is reported to have stabbed Hunter five times in the upper back. Witnesses also reported Hunter was stomped on by several Hells Angels while he was on the ground. The gun was recovered and turned over to police. Hunter's autopsy later confirmed his girlfriend's report that he did have methamphetamine in his bloodstream at the time of his death.

Aftermath

Passaro was arrested and charged with murder for Meredith's death, but was acquitted on the grounds of self-defense after the jury viewed the footage from the concert showing Hunter drawing the revolver and pointing it in the air."
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
A wacko going off. No racial overtones. What's your point? Is there a controversial law involved?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
4000 black young men died violently last year.

The poverty pimps

nary a peep.


Didn't lead to a politically or financially productive narrative.

Same for a dead Christian.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
Why doesn't the gun lobby make a big deal about this? Try to make it easier to own/carry guns.

After all, if some were packin in that classroom, the shooter might have thought twice?

Makes about as much sense as your contrived argument.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
race, controversial law, upsurge of justifiable homocide incidents.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
chaz:
You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida.

The way Florida courts have been interpreting this law, you could shoot Tyson.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
TGT: out of 4000 young black men killed 3975 were killed by other black men. doehttp://www.supertopo.com/inc/postreply.php?topic_id=1780615&tn=540#snt that prove that blacks are racist against blacks WAY more often than whites are against blacks?

No, what that proves is you have major issues with logic.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:02am PT
Gary writes:

"The way Florida courts have been interpreting this law, you could shoot Tyson."


I'm not so sure, Gary. I see a clear distinction between standing your ground, and starting some sh#t. Based on how things escalated, and how things turned out, a reasonable person would have to say Zimmerman was the one starting some sh#t.

I'd bet the "stand your ground" law doesn't even apply here. At least I hope it doesn't. The guy who wrote the law thinks it doesn't apply here.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:50am PT
dr.f: do you believe the media or are you going to wait until the law decides?

manzanita man, pot.. kettle...

edit: manzanita man, my statement has nothing to do with what you wrote below...
.....




People's true colors are certainly here for all to read..






monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:07am PT
cultural identity
WBraun

climber
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:41am PT
I don't see anybody calling you names?

You weak ass shrub .....
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:06am PT
Anonymous Racist, I mean Malodorus Vegetation, I mean Manzanita man wrote:

im not a racist but i do hate stupid people. its just that the blacks do

stupid sh#t so often, it makes it look like racism.

LOL.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:14am PT
The fet, I wish i would of copied that post...before it was edited...


edit: and where in the sam hill are the pictures from the Bill Graham memorial??
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 3, 2012 - 09:53am PT
manzanita man, when on the 911 recording, Zimmerman called Martin a "f*#king coon", in your opinion, did that perhaps lead some to the conclusion that there might be racial component to this incident?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 3, 2012 - 11:13am PT
Nita, Pics are prints and 35mm negatives in our "projects" closet, along with 30 years of pre-digital photos that I haven't seen in 10+ years. I don't have a scanner at home. I'll check at work and see if I can do a color scan there. Thanks for the reminder :-)
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
manzanita man, when on the 911 recording, Zimmerman called Martin a "f*#king coon"

As I understand it, that's a contention, not a fact.

As a weird aspect to all of this, who actually uses "coon" as a racial epithet these days (no points awarded for saying "Zimmerman")?
I'd be interested in hearing whether anyone who knows him ever heard him use that word or one of a similar vintage.

I suppose every group has its own slang, but "coon" (in reference to black people, not the little animal) doesn't sound like a word that would come out of the mouth of anyone under about 50, even if they are racist. Maybe the slang is different in different places, I don't know.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
Blahblah, I actually know several people - many younger than I - who use that derogatory term. Clearly it was learned from older family members and tolerated in the communities in which they live.

Of course that proves nothing about Zimmerman, but I know youngins' to use such language. :/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
It isn't the killing of a black guy that's news.

It's that everyone knows who shot an unarmed guy and he doesn't even get arrested for it. "

That's news and different than the 4000 other murders

Peace

Karl
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
As a weird aspect to all of this, who actually uses "coon" as a racial epithet these days

Have you ever lived, or spent time in the deep south? As someone who is a descendant of north Georgia poor white trash, redneck racist stock on one side (my grandfather proudly displayed his KKK belt buckle and Lester Maddox signed "ni**er knocker" miniature axe handle in his doublewide), let me assure you that "coon" is still prominently in the lexicon.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
Have you ever lived, or spent time in the deep south? As someone who is a descendant of north Georgia poor white trash, redneck racist stock on one side (my grandfather proudly displayed his KKK belt buckle and Lester Maddox signed "ni**er knocker" miniature axe handle in his doublewide), let me assure you that "coon" is still prominently in the lexicon.

ha...Bruce K.. beat me to the repost.

ot... ..

Elcapinyoazz, i've hung with you at the facelift, and know you are a cool person/ good peeps..... Wondering how you and your grandfather... are so very different?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
Not just the grandfather, almost everyone on that side of the family including my birth father. Racial slurs were, and are, regularly used in those households.

Other side of the family was very different, parents divorced when I was a toddler and I lived with the sane side...still in GA though.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
Cajuns in LA are still called "coonasses" to this day.

AND?

No {Coonass, Vietnamese, Neighborhood Watcher} ever called me a n*gger?

EDIT:

Come to think of it, I did meet some in Aspen and they did refer to themselves as coonasses though they used the Arcadian pronunciation.

I just checked at Arcadian-Cajun.com and there is no mention of coonasses on that site.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
Are there that many cajuns in Los Angeles?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 3, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
Elcap and I have similar families apparently. :/
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 3, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
Just curious as this thread is titled stand your ground law, what would you think of this scenario?

An elderly black woman who carries a firearm with her for self protection. A white thug attacks her, and instead of hobbling off to the old folks home, she draws her gun and fires, killing the thug.

Is the law on it's face bad? Do you think she should have no legal backing to defend herself as she couldn't apply the castle doctrine? I'm thinking with Florida being one of the retirment capitals in our country, perhaps this was more the intent of the law.

Back to Trayvon, the problem is those with racial and antigun agendas have jumped on this case, and have made the job of the police to properly investigate the case, as well as the DA to prosecute it impartially extremely difficult.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 3, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
^ So right...

This is only hot news because if a political Agenda...

Race card can easily be played.
Gun card can easily be played.

Just way too much going on for the media to not get all d*ck hungry for.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 3, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
An elderly black woman who carries a firearm with her for self protection. A white thug attacks her, and instead of hobbling off to the old folks home, she draws her gun and fires, killing the thug.

She wouldn't need the "stand your ground" law to defend herself. She's still have a good self-defense claim.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
Tolman, in theory I have no problem at all with a stand your ground law if it is written in such a way that it is not a free license to blast anyone who gets your pantys in a bunch. As stated previously I can not run 2,495fps (wolf 122gr hp out of a chinese SKS) heck I can not even run 850fps=.45ACP. The problem with the FLA law is that it was written with some major loopholes and case precident has shown that it is very easy to get away with murder with this law.

There is absoultly NO REQUIREMENT TO PROVE THAT DEADLY FORCE WAS DIRECTED AT THE SHOOTER. All the shooter needs to do is state that THEY WERE AFRAID FOR THEIR LIFE and they can shoot any damn person they want for free. How would you feel if somone killed your child and then claimed they wrere afraid and they walked?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
have made the job of the police to properly investigate the case, as well as the DA to prosecute it impartially extremely difficult

Uh bro? Maybe you missed the part where the Popo and DA didn't investigate sh#t and considered it a closed case before the media storm started?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
Elcap. Not sure if that is one of my quotes or not though I do know that I have brought up that point several times. I was refering to case precident affecting prosecution on many levels. there is enough case precident for shooters walking that the prosecuters seem to give up pretty darn easy and both prosecutors and police cite case precident as their excuse for letting zimmerman go free.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Was quoting Tolman there Tradman, should have used the full sentence to avoid confusion, my bad.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
There is absoultly NO REQUIREMENT TO PROVE THAT DEADLY FORCE WAS DIRECTED AT THE SHOOTER. All the shooter needs to do is state that THEY WERE AFRAID FOR THEIR LIFE and they can shoot any damn person they want for free. How would you feel if somone killed your child and then claimed they wrere afraid and they walked?

Yo, that's not at all what the law says. It's been posted on this thread, and, in relevant part, it requires that the person claiming self defense "reasonably believes [the use of force including deadly force] is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

John E, who I'm sure is a nice guy and knowledgeable about lots of things, posted that it was his "understanding" that the law has been interpreted to be subjective.
I called him out on that, and challenged him to provide any support for his "understanding." That's the last we've heard from him on this thread.

So I'll repeat the challenge: anyone who wants to say that the Florida's SYG law allows you to use deadly force just because you, subjectively, are afraid of something, please explain your reasoning. If your reasoning is something like "that's what John E said" or "that's what CNN said some Florida chief of police said", that's fine, but let me assure you that's nothing close to an argument that would even be admissible in any court in the country, and is really infantile from a lawyer's perspective.



zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
Sanford Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival, told the Miami Herald that she met Zimmerman in September, 2011 at a community neighborhood watch presentation. Dorival stated that she gave a warning with respect to vigilante behavior at that meeting: “I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out,’ ” Dorival said. “‘Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about not being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”

The dispatcher recommended that he not take any action, and informed him that police were on the way. Zimmerman reported that Martin had started running. The dispatcher asked him if he was following Martin and he affirmed that he was. The dispatcher informed him that this was not necessary, saying, "We don't need you to do that."[69] Zimmerman affirmed "OK" and said he would meet the police by the mailboxes. However, before hanging up he changed his mind and said “Actually, could you have him call me, and I’ll tell him where I’m at?”[70]

2:07 minutes into the police call Zimmerman says "he's running". 2:37 into the call Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran". After he can't tell the dispatcher the address of his current location, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman for his apartment number. Zimmerman tells him the numbers of his street address and then at 3:35 adds "Oh crap, I don't want to give it all out. I don't know where this kid is". Zimmerman appears to hang up at the 4:05 mark, almost two minutes after the comment that Martin was running. The recording ends at 4:11

69.^ Clint Van Zandt, 911 calls released in deadly Florida shooting, MSNBC, Retrieved 2012-03-21.

70.^ Robles, Frances. "What is known, what isn’t about Trayvon Martin’s death - Trayvon Martin". MiamiHerald.com. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2725442_p2/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
anyone who wants to say that the Florida's SYG law allows you to use deadly force just because you, subjectively, are afraid of something, please explain your reasoning.

You already answered it. All beliefs are subjective.

"reasonably believes [the use of force including deadly force] is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:50pm PT

You already answered it. All beliefs are subjective.

Perhaps, but they're not all reasonable, which is what the law requires.
In other words, if you have a subjective, but unreasonable belief that force is required, you get no help from the SYG law. That reasonableness requirement is what imparts objectivity into the SYG law.

Thanks for at least paying attention.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Why was z-man carrying a gun? Most of us have gone to the store thousands of times and never needed to pack.

From what's been said so far, Martin committed no crime, yet in violation of the established (stated, re-iterated, sanctioned police) procedures, Martin was stalked by z-man. Clearly Martin had reason to fear for his life and would have been protected had he shot z-man with his ice tea. Martin's only bad in this was not to be carrying.

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
blahblah, google the law. You'll find plenty of instances supporting JohnE's take on this.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
@blah

Perhaps, but they're not all reasonable, which is what the law requires.

I'm sure if you ask z-man he'll say his were reasonable.

The law does not afford the authority to the police to determine reasonability. Therefore, z-man should have been arrested and the court system would be able to take a shot at deciding whether his actions were reasonable.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
As part of the jury instructions, the judge carefully explained the California laws that applied to self defense. I remember that the law was very generous toward the person defending themselves. For example it was OK to use disproportionate force and the person only needed to perceive a threat. The CA law and FL law have a lot in common

-which is why the Hell's Angel who stabbed Meridth Hunter to death at Altomont was acquitted.

Drawing a gun is no small threat...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
blahblah, google the law. You'll find plenty of instances supporting JohnE's take on this.

Gary, I don't need plenty, I need one from a Florida appellate court.
Got one? If not, while you of course are free to post whatever you want, as is John E, me, and the man on the moon, I'll just respectfully note that John E made an extraordinary claim regarding the Florida statute, which apparently you believe as well, but neither you nor John E have provided a shred of evidence to support your claim.

I'm sure I can use google to find support for cold fusion, perpetual motion machines, etc.
But I'm not the one making a claim here.
Either you got the proof or you don't.
Gene

climber
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
but let me assure you that's nothing close to an argument that would even be admissible in any court in the country, and is really infantile from a lawyer's perspective.

I think that all most folks want is that this event be placed before a jury in court so that the facts can be determined and a verdict made.

The problem, as I see it, is that the SYG legislation in many cases precludes a public airing of the event in a court of law. That's not good. Exoneration of a shooter based on his/her take of the situation should not stand without scrutiny.

g


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
The term "reasonable" is frequently used in statutes and judicial opinions. It almost never, if ever, means subjective reasonable belief. That would be nuts even by NRA standards

For better or worse, lots of states have these laws, including a similar statute in California.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
{The Myth of the Reasonable Man :: The Case of Fardell v. Potts: A. P. Herbert}
It is impossible to travel anywhere or to travel for long in that confusing forest of learned judgments which constitutes the Common Law of England without encountering the Reasonable Man. He is at every turn, an ever-present help in time of trouble, and his apparitions mark the road to equity and right. There has never been a problem, however difficult, which His Majesty’s judges have not in the end been able to resolve by asking themselves the simple question, ‘Was this or was it not the conduct of a reasonable man?’ and leaving that question to be answered by the jury.

I have called him a myth; and, in so far as there are few, if any, of his mind and temperament to be found in the ranks of living men, the title is well chosen. But it is a myth which rests upon solid and even, it may be, upon permanent foundations. The Reasonable Man is fed and kept alive by the most valued andenduring of our juridical institutions-the common jury.

Hateful as he must necessarily be to any ordinary citizen who privately considers him, it is a curious paradox that where two or three are gathered together in one place they will with one accord pretend an admiration for him; and, when they are gathered together in the formidable surroundings of a British jury, they are easily persuaded that they themselves are, each and generally, reasonable men.

Without stopping to consider how strange a chance it must have been that has picked fortuitously from a whole people no fewer than twelve examples of a species so rare, they immediately invest themselves with the attributes of the Reasonable Man, and are therefore at one with the Courts in their anxiety to support the tradition that such a being in fact exists Thus it is that while the Economic Man has under the stress of modern conditions almost wholly disappeared from view his Reasonable cousin has gained in power with every case in which he has figured.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
I am certainly not a lawer and not going to be able to tell you exactly what part of the law gets these people free. I did however read several storys on yahoo news that quoted Florida prosecuters and law enforcement personel saying how terrible the law is and that it makes it extreemly dificult to convict murders who use this defence. Also read from several sorces a stat where justifiable homicide more that trippled anually since the law was enacted. Does that mean there are more shootings or are there just more people succesfully useing this defense?

When I took my bodyguard classes and got my armed guard licence there was no debate period about shooting unarmed people. The instructors (state police)stressed over and over that the threat must be real, not precieved. The threat must also be in the present. Threats in the past even if that past is only 5 seconds ago do not count. Guy thretens you with a gun then lowers that gun and you shoot him while he was no longer threatening you and you go to jail.. the threat had to be iminent and real. I feel that the culprit in the FL law is probobly the word PRECIEVED. That word allows the threat to be not real but imaginary depending on your preception. The guy who shot his neighbor in FL over garbage bags shot him 10 ft from his front door. Unarmerd guy in a routine argument about how many garbage bags you are allowed on your lawn the armed neighbor blasts him with a 9mm and walks. No way in hell that flys in any northern state. Heard on the radio today that the highest rates of STD's teen pregnancys and crime are all in the southern/ Red states... Go figure............
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 3, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
tradmanclimbs said:
. The instructors (state police)stressed over and over that the threat must be real, not precieved. The threat must also be in the present. Threats in the past even if that past is only 5 seconds ago do not count. Guy thretens you with a gun then lowers that gun and you shoot him while he was no longer threatening you and you go to jail.. the threat had to be iminent and real.

this is exactly what I was taught in my State Concealed Carry Class, thank you

so, would not this also be the legal "intent" behind Florida's law to prosecute or not?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
ontheedge. FL law uses reasonable and precieved in the same sentance. Probobly that is where the problem lies as well as the FL courts interpretation of the statue.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
FL prosecuters and police have voiced conciderable concern that their law makes it too easy to get away with murder and the courts seem to have proven their point quite convinceingly.
Tobia

Social climber
GA
Apr 4, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
If you have ever spent time in Louisiana you might have noticed a few of these stickers on the bumpers or windows of pickup trucks:


BITD the stickers just had the RCA letters and mimicked the old RCA electronics logo; some things change.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 12:56am PT
@Tobia - well you're alot closer to Louisiana than most of us and from my limited experience coonasses (CoonAsses?) don't object to the term.

For the sake of this thread though a f*ckin' coon is not quite the same thing as a CoonAss.


Better call Santorum first, but wouldn't z-man have been justified in shooting this f*ckin coon who was raping his dog?






Tobia

Social climber
GA
Apr 5, 2012 - 06:15am PT
That's the emblem, zbrown. I haven't been to Louisiana in a coon's age. The last time I was there was to take my aunt home, 14 months after Katrina.

Prior to that I lived there for several years, (uptown) in the mid to late 70's and again in the early 80's working offshore but keeping a home-base in New Orleans. Working offshore we would embark and disembark from anywhere between Houma, LA and Corpus Christi, TX. Lots and lots of proud RCA's.

Another point, living in what is regarded as the "deep south" now, I haven't heard the racist term "coon" in many years; if I hear a derogatory reference to a black person it is usually the n-word.

On the other hand, I don't put myself in a position where racism is an issue; sometimes you can't avoid it. I am not of that mentality.

Locality is not synonymous with attitude.

I was raised in the era of segregation, when Lester Maddox was passing out his ax handles, "separate but equal" schools, waiting rooms, lunch counter rules, etc. I have witnessed it up close and personally.

Unbeknown to some people just because you were born in such an environment does not mean these beliefs are embedded in your genes.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 06:22am PT
Looks like the dog is likeing it....
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 5, 2012 - 08:52am PT
blahbla:
Gary, I don't need plenty, I need one from a Florida appellate court.

You'll have to do your own research, I'm really busy right now. The economy is picking up! And why do you think there has been an appeal? Would a person who's walked because of this law appeal the case?

I think this is why so many people are Republican voters. They prefer to be spoon fed their opinions, rather than forming their own based on their own analysis and research of what's going on. There are exceptions, of course, old school Republicans like JohnE. I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions, but you can see that he thinks for himself, and doesn't march in lock step with the Wall Street owned main stream media.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 5, 2012 - 10:08am PT

You'll have to do your own research, I'm really busy right now. The economy is picking up! And why do you think there has been an appeal? Would a person who's walked because of this law appeal the case?

I think this is why so many people are Republican voters. They prefer to be spoon fed their opinions, rather than forming their own based on their own analysis and research of what's going on. There are exceptions, of course, old school Republicans like JohnE. I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions, but you can see that he thinks for himself, and doesn't march in lock step with the Wall Street owned main stream media.

Gary--
I'm not a "Republican voter" in general, but I've formed an opinion that you and John E are full of it on this issue (whether the SYG would protect someone who has a subjective but unreasonable fear). My opinion is formed by reading the statute and keeping an open mind if anyone presents any evidence that the statute hasn't been interpreted according to what appears to be its "plain meaning."

How did you form your opinion?

Oh, and to answer your question about why there may be an appeal: a prosecutor should and likely would appeal a judge's determination that the SYG law protects people who claim self defense but have unreasonable fears. Prosecutors appeal judges' decisions all the time--what they cannot appeal is a jury's acquittal.

If you don't understand that appellate decisions are the basic way that laws are interpreted in the US, that's fine, but it shows you really don't know the first thing about how the legal system works. You may want to reconsider making snide remarks about the quality of other people's opinions.

Glad your business is picking up--I too have more lucrative ways of spending time than posting here, but hey you gotta have a non-climbing related hobby, right?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:57am PT
To get back off the topic, I hadn't heard "ace boon coon" used in a long time, but it's still around. These guys don't frequent the ST so here it is:

I think this covers about all the bases, even gots a "goon-ah" @ :22

Has anyone checked z-man's iPod?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
I would assume that Florida has some version of an "anti-stalking" law. It does.

California Penal Code Section 646.9 seems to require "repeatedly" and "maliciously"

Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly
follows or willfully and maliciously harasses another person and who
makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in
reasonable fear for his or her safety, or the safety of his or her
immediate family is guilty of the crime of stalking

Florida seems to be modeled upon California (the first in 1990) and includes pretty much the same language.

Florida’s law states in part that “any person who willfully,
maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another
person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place
that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury,
commits the offense of aggravated stalking.”

Now we need to see if these two qualifiers have been upheld in the courts.

Also, haven't seen how and why the investigator's recommendation that z-man be arrested and charged with manslaughter was over-ridden.

I imagine he's under order not to discuss it publicly, will be interesting to see what the special prosecutor comes up with.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 5, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
blahblah
Gary--
I'm not a "Republican voter" in general, but I've formed an opinion that you and John E are full of it on this issue (whether the SYG would protect someone who has a subjective but unreasonable fear). My opinion is formed by reading the statute and keeping an open mind if anyone presents any evidence that the statute hasn't been interpreted according to what appears to be its "plain meaning."

How did you form your opinion?

By reading some Florida papers reporting on court cases. How did you form your opinion?

If I had access to the Southern Reporter I'd try to see if there were any appeals. But I don't want to pay for access to it online, and my weekends are too busy to allow time to head to the law library. If you have any references to support your side, I'd be happy to read them. Really.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 5, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
Zimmerman aggressively stalks Martin because he is a racist-profiling-wannabe cop.

Martin stands his ground when confronted, according to "Stand Your Ground" law.

Zimmerman is getting his butt kicked by someone 100lbs lighter than him.

Zimmerman shoots and murders Martin, then claims self defense...

Instigation / Stalking should DEFINITELY be a limiting factor in the "Stand Your Ground" law.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 5, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
zBrown - Officially stalking requires repeated events. So there can be no legal action on the basis of stalking. BTW, most states use language provided by the feds such as you posted.

Still, this is not to say that it appears Zimmerman stalked (in the colloquial sense of the word) Trayvon.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 5, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Looks like Zimmerman may be going to Jail, now that the higher (grown) ups have gotten involved.

link?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 5, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
Gary,
You no longer need to head to the law library to find reported cases, check out
http://scholar.google.com/schhp?hl=en
Choose "legal opinions and journals," select "advanced search," and select Florida courts.
(For what it's worth, I am a lawyer and do lots of legal research with Google--it's not yet a complete replacement for paid databases, but it's got an incredible amount of useful content.)

I spent just a few minutes and didn't really see any cases on point, but I may not have come across them.

As I think I mentioned, I've formed by view on this by reading the statute and noting the word "reasonable" in the relevant section.
I freely admit to being skeptical and cynical, but I'm more inclined to rely on the statute than on a cop's characterization of it, or even a DA's for that matter.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 5, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
I don't know Dr. F. As much as I don't like what I've heard about Zimmerman's behavior (and who knows if what is in the media is complete or correct), he may not. The court has to work with the laws it is given. Time will tell.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
Officially stalking requires repeated events

@crimpergirl - What's your authority for this? Other than what I quoted about the law in CA and FL?

otherwise:

Why was the invesitgator's recommendation to arrest and charge z-man not followed?

Why was there no (or minimal) attempt to collect evidence?

Why was the call for an ambulance canceled?

Why the delay in notifying the parents of Martin's death?

In how many cases where "stand your ground" was employed as a defense was the defendant not arrested immediately?

Is there a case where stalking was deemed to have occurred even without it having been habitual or repeated?

Why are z-man's two lawyers unwilling to say even whether or not he was treated by a doctor, urgent care, or hospital for his injuries?

Why is the fact that z-man was counseled in about Sept. 2011 about not confronting anyone ignored?

Does z-man have a job? Does he carry his weapon to work? Why was he carrying a weapon when he asserts he was just going to the local store?

Is z-man licensed to carry a weapon? Was the license up-to-date?

Why are there attempts to ignore z-man's prior behavior? There is a strong possibility that it will be allowed if this makes it to trial. Possibly Martin's too. From what's available so far Martin doesn't and z-man does have a pattern of volatile, agressive behavior. The argument is that it goes to the state of mind of each individual at the time of the incident.

Isn't it true that z-man and OJ attended Neighborhood Watch Killers Bootcamp together in 2006?
...





Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 6, 2012 - 11:27am PT
blahblah, thanks for that link. I will check it out. Once in a while I research boundary law, and that'll come in handy.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 6, 2012 - 11:39am PT
@crimpergirl - What's your authority for this? Other than what I quoted about the law in CA and FL?

I'm a violent crime researcher and one of my areas of expertise is violence against women. A good part of that deals with stalking. I've been involved indirectly as these laws were being implemented so the elements of the crime are known to me (e.g., the repeated measure). As a researcher, having a clear definition - derived from the law - is necessary for measurement of the issue. I have published articles talking about estimates derived from this definition (what is good and bad about it). I lecture about it annually. I don't hold myself up to be the end-all be-all stalking expert, but I do know that stalking requires a "two or more times" aspect to it legally.

How people use the term in a day to day sense is likely different.

edit: Note the language in the definition you posted:

Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly
follows or willfully and maliciously harasses another person and who
makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in
reasonable fear for his or her safety, or the safety of his or her
immediate family is guilty of the crime of stalking

The 'repeatedly' part (meaning 2 or more times) is where the problem is imo. Zimmerman did not legally "stalk" Trayvon to the extent he did not follow him on two or more occasions.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 7, 2012 - 03:01am PT
@crimpergirl

Since you spend alot of time in this arena (most likely more than all of us on the thread combined), are you aware of any instance where stalking was deemed to have occurred based on one instance alone. For example, has anyone obtained a restraining order based on one occurrence of intimidating behavior?

I'm not questioning what you said, just what your comment was based upon. As I've looked into the California's statute, instituted in response to Ms. Saldana's stalking, it seems that other states derived their implementations from it. However, it seems that the language could have differed, and more importantly, judicial interpretation of the language, in other states.

I suppose it's time everybody has a look at what the Florida Law says, here an excerpt:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 8, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
Z - this gets a bit beyond my expertise. Maybe some attorneys can chime in. I know one could get a restraining order prior to the stalking laws for other reasons. I am uncertain how "intimidating behavior" is viewed legally. It'd be nice to hear others' thoughts on that.

Stalking in most places requires two + times plus other elements such as the victim feeling reasonable fear. If not, lots of mother-in-laws could be arrested for stalking. (hardy har har).

I wonder if legally there is something about 'hunting'. Based on the info we've heard (again, may be inaccurate and/or incomplete), it seems Zimmerman could be in trouble for a hunting type of behavior. Anyone?

Theresa Saldana's attack, and especially the murder of Rebecca Schaeffer by a stalker put stalking really on the map (and in the minds of policy makers). There is some great literature out there about the folks who were trying to get attention to stalking for some time before these event. It was after their attacks that it finally stuck. California led the way on this. The federal govt then offered language based on CA and many states adopted it. Please note that in the academic world, there are many who poo-poo the notion of stalking - view it as a socially constructed problem. Interested stuff.

Attorneys? Thoughts on Z's questions?

Also let me say that I am more familiar with the federal level of this stuff. Not so much the state level.

Hey, check this out: "Fourteen states may classify stalking as a felony upon first offense. Thirty-five states classify stalking
as a felony upon the second offense and/or when the crime involves aggravating factors" (from: http://www.ncvc.org/src/AGP.Net/Components/DocumentViewer/Download.aspxnz?DocumentID=41531);. As you noted earlier, FL is a 'repeated' states so someone has to do it repeatedly to technically stalk.

Wish I knew more Z. Interesting questions.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 9, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
Expect an arrest soon.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 9, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c3#/video/crime/2012/04/09/tsr-sylvester-man-beaten-baltimore.cnn

Too bad this guy was too drunk to stand his ground.
Where are the Black Panthers? Al Sharpton?
No outrage when a white guy with a $1300 watch gets beaten, robbed, and humiliated by a bunch of black people.


But when there is absolutely no evidence in a case where a 1/2 white man kills a black kid, they go ape-sh#t.

No i didn't use ape in a literal sense.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 9, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
^Thanks FAT. So there is possibly some judicial precedent for stalking to have occurred in a single act. Be interesting to know if the judge ever actually used the term stalking.

Kidding and arguing aside, it seems a tragedy that z-man did not follow the tenets of police recommended neighborhood watch procedure and just wait for them to arrive. I wonder why?

I'm curious if someone just got him aside and asked now, whether he'd say, yeah I wish I would have stayed in the truck like they to wanted me too.

^michaeld - good point. I watched it twice (you get a different anti-smoking message each time, sure glad I don't use 'em). Offends the hell out of me. It's a strange phenomenon, how one story take off (obviously this one wasnt' completely ignored since you have the link) and another doesn't. If I figure it out, I'll let everyone in on it after a make a billion dollars in advertizing consulting.



michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 9, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
Why would Treyvon hang up on his girlfriend if he got attacked?


I've heard conflicting stories where she said after the fact that she heard him get into an altercation with someone.

Then another where she said he'd call her back.... Which is it?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 9, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Everything you just posted is the confusion. There is no evidence. It's all opinions on what happened. What can ya do?

Go climb.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 9, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
It's clear now from mm's link that blacks will kill whites. Thanks.

No wonder Zman was afraid for his life. He was confronting a black kid.

Zman was just doing his part to even the score against blacks.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 9, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
Because Zimmerman called the guy a coon,

Except he never did.


He said it was "f*#king cold"

There's been a lot of irresponsible reporting on this case that should rise to the level of criminality.

Seems there's a huge market for
angertainment
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 9, 2012 - 09:59pm PT

He said it was "f*#king cold"

The latest was he said "punk" (not coon and not cold).

I feel slightly vindicated in my post way upthread to the effect of "who the heck says coon these days"? (A few people responded that the term is in current use in their families and I'm sure they're telling it like they see it, but I still got a little smug satisfaction when the enhanced audio shows he didn't say coon).

Re: posted link of people (who happened to be black) beating the hell of some some guy (who happened to be white), laughing and videoing it--didn't have anything to do with race, at least I didn't hear any suggestion from the newscasters that it did. Us simpletons need to be told when race is a factor in a crime (Zimmerman) and when it doesn't (Baltimore beating), because it's not totally obvious until someone tells you . . .
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 9, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
F*#king cold? Good time to put up the hoodie.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 9, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
that he followed him after

the dispatcher said that they dont need him to? how does that show racial

motivation? anyone?


good point, actually!

Yes, quite possible Zimmerman did not know the race of the adult looking person.

But, what Zimmerman DID know for sure was that he personally had a gun.

Zimmerman also knew that he could just turn around and LEAVE, but chose not to.

In fact, he was TOLD to let it go, "we don't need you to do that".


Instead, Zimmerman chose not to just simply get away, to leave the scene.

And if he would have, the kid would very probably still be alive.



zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 12:26am PT
at 6' tall and wearing a hoodie, he could have been any age.

at that time in feb., its dark. how does zman know that martin isnt armed?

he doesnt. that he followed him after

the dispatcher said that they dont need him to? how does that show racial

motivation? anyone?

He followed and got out of his truck against the expressed intent of the dispatcher and his prior indoctrination into the neighborhood watch program. Read above if you can't find it. If it had been a six foot tall unarmed white girl with a hoodie would he have killed her too. It was dark you know. Or do you? How much lighting is there on the path? Some folks are saying it's race related, it may or may not have been, still more than likely it was murder. He's getting away with it so far because of a bizarre law on the books in Florida. Take some time and read the law.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 10, 2012 - 01:22am PT
Some folks are saying it's race related, it may or may not have been, still more than likely it was murder. He's getting away with it so far because of a bizarre law on the books in Florida. Take some time and read the law

Your injunction to "take some time and read the law" is good advice--I've done that and don't see how the law changes the proper outcome of this case as compared to the laws in any other state (and many have laws similar to Florida's).

But that's all been hashed out. What's more interesting to me is your observation that "more than likely it was murder." I may or may not agree with that (I'd prefer to wait until the investigation is complete.) But if the strongest you can come up with is "more than likely," then he shouldn't in fact be charged with anything.

People charged with crimes must be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. You may feel it's significantly more likely that he's guilty, and even that the evidence against him is "clear and convincing," but that's not enough to get a conviction.

A consequence of our guilt beyond a reasonable doubt standard is that in some cases people who many of us think are guilty, and who probably are guilty to the extent such a thing can be objectively determined, will escape justice. That's just the way the system works--it's not perfect, but it's better than most of the alternatives!

Here's my crash course legal lesson of the day (and as always, there are exceptions, these are the general rules):
In civil cases, the party bringing the suit must prove the charges against the defendant by a mere "preponderance of the evidence," that is, anything even a smidge greater than 50%;
In criminal cases, the state must proves the charges "beyond a reasonable doubt" (which can't be quantified, but everyone would agree that it's something MUCH greater than 50%).

This knowledge may explain some seeming anomalies in the law, such as how OJ could have acquitted in his murder trial but found liable in the civil trial brought by the victims' families.

I would have liked to see someone try to get standing to represent Caylee Anothony (get appointed "next friend" or executor of her estate or something) and sue Casey for killing her!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 10, 2012 - 03:50am PT
here is an article for all you trayvon supporters. whos racist more?

http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html


Who's racist more? The guy who writes the captions...

Feral N*gger? Yeah.... Only in the south.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
I've done that and don't see how the law changes the proper outcome of this case

You've determined the proper outcome? You don't see how the law factors in?

People charged with crimes must be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. You may feel it's significantly more likely that he's guilty, and even that the evidence against him is "clear and convincing," but that's not enough to get a conviction.

Can't get anything either way without him being arrested, charged and tried. It is my opinion that he is "more than likely guilty", which I'm entitled to and which more than likely would keep me off the jury in Florida.

"Reasonable" is a horrendous legal myth, but it's in the law - read above.

I've done that and don't see how the law changes the proper outcome of this case as compared to the laws in any other state (and many have laws similar to Florida's).

Since you've read it, then you've probably observed that it's a horribly drafted law, whose language allows the self-defense assertion in a completely overly broad range of circumstances. Take a look through the literature and see where it has been invoked.

Which states' laws have you read in order to make the above comparison?

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 10, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Since you've read it, then you've probably observed that it's a horribly drafted law, whose language allows the self-defense assertion in a completely overly broad range of circumstances. Take a look through the literature and see where it has been invoked.

Which states' laws have you read in order to make the above comparison

Vermont's and Florida's specifically as related to this issue, and generally common law and "general" United State's law (things like miscellaneous cases from around the US, Model Penal Code for illustrative purposes) in law school.
Vermont's law may actually be more favorable to someone alleging self defense in this type of instance. Pretty funny VT case noting that a coward may have a greater right to use self defense that a person of normally bravery! You can't make that stuff up (and I'm not making it up).

The Florida law may well be horribly drafted, but no one on this thread (that I've seen, and I've followed it pretty closely) has been able to identify how any problems with it may apply to this case. (Lots of the law has to do with things like rights to self defense in vehicles and dwellings.)

Care to enlighten us? People like tradman will point out that they read something where a FL police chief or prosecutor said it's a bad law. That may well be true, but is entirely unpersuasive to anyone who knows anything about law.

And get the jargon right--if you're referring to cases (which are the only places where the law could actually be "invoked"), that's not referred to as "literature" in the legal world.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
^
I didn't realize this thread was in the "legal world". Folks invoke their constitutional right not to answer a question when they appear before a congressional committee. These clearly are not cases in the legal world or anywhere else. I've noticed that people weak in the ability to reason often lapse into jargon, or the defense of it's use, to cover over the deficieny.

In the real world two is not many (VT, FL).

I'm not gonna look it up, but I'm sure you can find where the police "invoked" the law as their justification for not arresting zman.

I'll repeat it:

Can't get anything either way without him being arrested, charged and tried.


Re-read section 776.041 which describes when the defense will not be allowed. None of these determinations is specified to be made by the police, they are determinations that must be made at the time of the trial, after the arrest.

EDIT: Out of curiosity I surveyed 3 successful attorneys (all top of the class Stanford Law grads, and one who clerked for a Federal judge. None found the use of the term literature offensive or incorrect when referring to legal writings.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Apr 10, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
So here is how this works- NRA for better or worse gets no retreat law passed. Local DA/Police chief have "close" call under that law. 99.9% of arrests and prosecutions concern people who are undeniably guilty. The DA and police chief are politicians. Arrest and and attempt to prosecute zimmerman = huge fight with NRA funded defense. Lose and you are probably out of a job. Easy answer.

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 10, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
The saddest part (other than the death of the young man) of this event, is that it will make it clear to everyone in a state with similar laws that all they have to do in order to kill people they don't like is catch them alone.

No witnesses = "I was in fear for my life." = No legal proceedings.

And where does that lead? To an endless chain of murder and counter-murder.

Something Mr. Zimmerman is no doubt thinking about now.

It reminds me of a murder that happened in Vancouver about twenty years ago. A friend of mine was the lead detective on the case, which went to trial, and which featured incontrovertible evidence of the killer's guilt. But the verdict was "Not guilty." I think either the police or the prosecutor's office made an error somewhere along the way, and some of the evidence was ruled inadmissible, and the guy walked.

I commented to Robb the next day that he must be pretty upset at seeing justice denied on a technicality, but he just laughed and said something like "Nah. He'll be dead in a week. He'd have been safer in jail."

And so it turned out. Shot dead within a few days of walking out of the courtroom. And this was in peace-loving Canada, not the US where every second person is packing.

Seems to me that this law gives anybody who doesn't like you the ability to kill you and walk away unworried - as long as they catch you alone.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 10, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
No one here really knows what happened and much of the press coverage has been "angertainment" and completely speculative when it hasn't been intentionally misleading.

To start with the "gated community" is a rather ordinary high density condo / apartment complex with 60% minority residents.

The only time line I've heard from anyone with even second hand knowledge (interview with Zimmerman's father so there's obviously a bias, but just about all of this would be verifiable in an investigation.) goes like this.

Zimmerman is on his way out of the complex to go grocery shopping (not patrolling) when he sees someone, not a resident, prowling around units that had been previously robbed multiple times.

Z calls cops and begins following Martin

M ducks down a walkway between units and Z looses sight of him.

Z is driving down the parking side of the complex and stops to walk to the other side of the complex down a transverse walkway to get an address off the other side for the cops. Still hasn't seen M since he first disappears

On the way back to his car M comes up the walk between units and approaches Z saying "you got a problem"

Z replies "no I don't have a problem"

M punches Z, knocks him down and starts pounding on him.

Z pulls his pistol and shoots M.


If those are the facts, there shouldn't be any charges. The "Stand Your Ground" law would have no bearing on the case at all.
The forensics would show contact powder burns on W's clothing and body
Eyewitnesses saw M on top of Z and Z screaming.

Pure self defense and all Z's statements checked out.

It may be as simple as that.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 10, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
What's W stand for?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 10, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
"W" stands for "Martin".
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 10, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
fixed it
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 10, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
We'll never know who escalated to a physical altercation, since no one saw that. Powder residue, present or not, can be explained away as well.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
^aaah-ha! 'roid rage - maybe? Too bad they didn't see fit to do some blood collection on z-man that night, despite doing it on Martin's body.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
Zimmerman is on his way out of the complex to go grocery shopping (not patrolling)

I've asked this before. Even if you're licensed and inclined to like your guns, how often do you pack when going up to the grocery store. Not that the gun just happened to be in the truck, he's wearing in a holster on his belt. Right?

he sees someone, not a resident, prowling

TGT this little narrative is bullsh#t. Why waste time posting it?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 10, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
from zBrown:
I'm not gonna look it up, but I'm sure you can find where the police "invoked" the law as their justification for not arresting zman.

Well, since the Florida SYG law sets forth the law of self-defense Florida, yeah, that would be the reason why no charges have been brought against Zimmerman. Duhh.

The issue is whether charges would have been brought under previous FL law, i.e., does the FL SYG law make any difference in this case. Did the police ever say anything about that? You "sure"?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 10, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
TGT this little narrative is bullsh#t. Why waste time posting it?

And what evidence do you have that the one you have bought into isn't as well?

Like "angertainment"?

Everyone involved in this has an axe to grind and the MSM have already been caught in several fabrications.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:28am PT
blacks commit 50x more hate crimes against whites than whites do against blacks.

now there's some factual reporting.

edit-The New Nation is your source of facts? that's f*#king hilarious. are you LEB?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:39am PT
This is where MM reinforces his world view:

http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html

Hey MM, the 50x link goes nowhere. What a dumbass.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:50am PT
FYI, crime is not necessarily hate crime.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:55am PT
The last full report of the NCVS was issued in 1994.

hmmm kinda antiquated info for an annual report. got anything from this century? oh yeah The New Nation. Thanks for the laughs...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:57am PT
where's the link to your proof?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 12:22pm PT

And what evidence do you have that the one you have bought into isn't as well?

Like "angertainment"?


Wasn't me.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Well, since the Florida SYG law sets forth the law of self-defense Florida, yeah, that would be the reason why no charges have been brought against Zimmerman. Duhh.

The issue is whether charges would have been brought under previous FL law, i.e., does the FL SYG law make any difference in this case. Did the police ever say anything about that? You "sure"?

You're the one who said it couldnt' be invoked, except in a case. So was it invoked here - duh, duh, blah blah

You mentioned law school, so I’m wondering if you actually have a law license. If you do, it’s a real testament to the demand for your skills (or more appropriately lack thereof) as an attorney that you do so much of your “legal work” pro bono on the SuperTopo forum.

Don't bother to reply, it's very boring chatting with you. I can talk to real attorneys anytime I desire.


michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/11/prosecutor-to-announce-decision-on-zimmerman/?hpt=hp_c1
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
this is from the justice dpartment.

The best and most complete evidence comes from the Justice Department. Its annual National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) canvasses a representative sample of about 80,000 Americans, from roughly 43,000 households. From this survey, a picture of crime is painted by its victims. The last full report of the NCVS was issued in 1994. From it we learn that blacks committed 1,600,951 violent crimes against whites. In the same year, whites committed 165,345 such offenses against blacks. Despite being only 13 percent of the population, blacks committed more than 90 percent of the violent interracial crime. Less than 15 percent of these had robbery as a motive. The rest were assaults and rapes.

The NCVS has been ongoing since 1972/73. Reports using it published by the Justice Department have also continued until the present. The statement that the last full report was published in 1994 is a puzzling one. I think they may be referring to an online report that stopped for a while (stopped in 1995) due to a lack of personnel.

And here is a 'full report' from 2007 (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus07.pdf);.

Still, the numbers reported in the quote do not strike me as accurate. I'd like to see where that was taken from. Also, one must know that the NCVS collects rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault and simple assault in terms of 'violent crimes.' About 2/3 of all violent crimes are simple assaults.

Also, the data collection is not antiquated, but is instead a data collection effort that has been the model used across the globe.

And as noted, violent crime is no necessarily a 'hate crime'. Yes, some in the general population call all crimes a hate crime. I wonder if they call terrorism just regular crime too? Hate crime has a specific meaning.

And, not surprising, the NCVS has been used to offer a report on hate crimes in the United States. The most recent is here: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/hc0309.pdf. Those interested in the race of the victim may want to check out Table 9.

BTW, the NCVS is my specialty. Happy to answer any other questions about it and crime data in general.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
Time to lawyer up Zimmie...again, I guess since the other pair of lawyers split:

"NBC News is now reporting that George Zimmerman – the Sanford, Florida neighborhood watch supervisor who shot Trayvon Martin – will be charged in connection with the shooting. The Washington Post also reported that Zimmerman will be charged. Zimmerman’s lawyers on Tuesday withdrew their counsel in the case.



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
Well, it looks like Zimmerman will be charged after all. I hope justice prevails.

John
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
^ ^ ^
But how can that be, when Zimmerman has the protection of the FL SYG law?

Quick, we need all the ST legal experts (maybe zBrown and his crack team of consultants) to get on it. Time for a literature search!
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
Yeah blah. Touched a nerve huh? Your check is in the mail and it's small, commensurate with your contribution and ability. Let us know if have trouble finding your way to the mailbox. We'll get someone over there to help you.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
Murder 2 and he is in custody.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
That special-prosecutor woman is a joke!

She claims the authorities acted quickly, even though they waited a month-and-a-half to do anything.

Most murder suspects are arrested at the moment they're identified and located, with charges coming no less than 72 hours later. At least the ones around here are. They're a good bit slower in Florida.


Is tonight's Riot at the Fruitvale BART Station still on?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
Wonder what Zimmerman's attorney is going to use as his defense: suffering from PTSD: resulting from intensely frightening, disturbing, shocking, painful and/or life-threatening situations.

Did he have PTSD before he shot or after?
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
Its impossible that fat old George Zimmerman could ever run and catch
17 yr old football player Trayvon Martin and start a fist fight.

While speedy Trayvon easily ran and caught waddling George and started the fight. And while pounding Georges head on the ground, he sees the gun, reaches for it, misses, and pays the ultimate price.




michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
Just gotta wait for the evidence to come out . . .
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
There won't be any more evidence about who escalated to physical confrontation. Nobody else saw it.

Doesn't matter that Martin was on top at some point, if he did not start the escalation, he's entitled to defend himself.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
It shouldn't matter how badly Zimmerman was injured because Martin was fighting for his life.

Apparently, Zimmerman wasn't wounded badly enough. Maybe if Martin had been more violent, he'd still be with us.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
What Fattrad said.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
"Unless you've been in law enforcement or a criminal prosecutor, you have no idea how difficult it is to investigate a difficult homicide case"

Yeah, especially if you don't start the damn investigation until a month and media shitstorm later.

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
If they brought charges they probably have a good case. But I believe in innocent until proven guilty so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

The cries for help on the 911 call sounded to me like a teenager. Zimmerman claims it was him. One of the fist things I heard from the prosecutor was she was going to have the voice analyzed. Some independent voice analysts said it wasn't Z. If Zimmerman got caught in a lie there he f*#ked up big time. Also Z's story to me sounds fishy. Why is T going to attack him out of nowhere, it doesn't make sense.

As I said I'm not condemning Z yet. What he said could be true. I'm glad this is going to trial. But the limited evidence I've read so far and the charges being filed lead me to believe he confronted T, a fight started, and he shot him. His actions also portray a man saddled with guilt, which he probably wouldn't have if things went down like he said they did.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
Expert witnesses can be bought quite easily. It may be a battle of expert witnesses and proof beyond a reasonable doubt for 12 people will be tough.
Gene

climber
Apr 11, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
Let both sides bring it on in front of a judge and jury. Let the judge referee and the jury decide. That's how it should work. Good move.

g
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
We'll see if it even goes to trial. I do look forward to hearing more information.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
All the Martin's wanted was an arrest...

They didn't specify a conviction...

Kind of stupid in my opinion. They need someone to take the downfall.

Were they there? No.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Possibly, murder 2 was filed, to get a manslaughter plea later. Seems risky. Why not manslaughter to start?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
What's going to happen if this turns into an innocent verdict say around September?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
"Race" riots.

Kinda like when you call a hooker a whore and she says "f*#k you"...
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
Black on white riots. Lead by Al Sharpton, reinforced by the Black Panthers.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 11, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Yepp.....

But hey, it adds to the intensity right?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
"Unless you've been in law enforcement or a criminal prosecutor, you have no idea how difficult it is to investigate a difficult homicide case"

Just like you can't know that cancer is bad unless you've had it I guess.


zBrown,

You don't know anything.

But I did say it was most likely murder and your law enforcement gal in the trenches above agrees. Good guess huh? Dumbass.

When you get some free time put together a dosier on how it is that you know so much. Most everyone that I read around here seems to agree that you know nothing and are stupid to boot. The closest thing I can think of that matches you is Beavis having a conversation with Butthead.





Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 12, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Affidavit of Probable Cause has been posted:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.affidavit.pdf?hpt=hp_t1
WBraun

climber
Apr 12, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
Read the "Affidavit of Probable Cause" you posted.

Yikes.

What's up with all these armchair Monday morning quarterbacks and armchair lawyers here?

Hilarious.

Just think if Americas court system was Supertopo?

It be the same as Zimmerman's free lancing as LEO .......



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
UPDATE, 3:45 p.m. ET: The affadavit filed Wednesday by prosecutors to establish probable cause of second-degree murder in the Trayvon Martin case has been released by the court. In it, prosecutors claim that George Zimmerman profiled Martin on Feb. 26, and during his call to the police dispatcher "made reference to people he felt had committed and gotten away with break-ins in his neighborhood."

More from the four-page court filing:


Later while talking about Martin, Zimmerman stated "these ---holes, they always get away" and also said "these ----ing punks."

During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening. The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being followed through the complex by and unknown male and didn't know why. Martin attempted to run home but was followed by Zimmerman who didn't want the person he falsely assumed was going to commit a crime to get away before the police arrived. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin. When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that and that the responding officer would meet him. Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to follow Martin.

Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued. Witnesses heard people arguing and what sounded like a struggle. During this time period witnesses heard numerous calls for help and some of these were recorded in 911 calls to police. Trayvon Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and has identified the voice crying for help as Trayvon Martin's voice.

Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest. When police arrived Zimmerman admitted shooting Martin. Officers recovered a gun from a holster inside Zimmerman's waistband. A fired casing that was recovered at the scene was determined to have been fired from the firearm.

Assistant Medical Examiner Dr. Bao performed an autopsy and determined that Martin died from the gunshot wound.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Apr 12, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
Callie - It is a weird sensation, to be imagining that scenario as laid out in the affidavit. That poor kid.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 12, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
Fatty, you're sorta loved here despite all that bad stuff.

Not to late to shape up and have a broader spectrum heart

You can be sure if it was a Muslim who shot a Jew in the neighborhood, that you'd be calling for murder charges

Peace

karl
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 12, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
Agreed Happie. Had to have been very scary for Trayvon.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 12, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
Z-man is in the court system where he belongs.
F I N I S for me.


EDIT: I would however, be interested in reading a thorough and thoughtful analysis of "stand your ground laws". Please post a link or start a new thread if you find one.




tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
I have seen several refrences to FL cases that seemed absurd that the shooter was not convicted of murder 2 or manslaughter.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
That's because most people in Florida are nitwits.

Look how long it took them to slueth this one out.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 13, 2012 - 01:27am PT
Amen. Now FL is paying the price for having such an ill-conceived law.

I had hoped that, if nothing else, the filing of charges might illustrate that there is nothing particularly wrong with this law, at least as applied to this case (it may well be fubar in other respects).

No such luck . . .

(And who knows how it will all turn out--depends on what the evidence is. Never really had much if anything to do with SYG.)
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 13, 2012 - 07:44am PT
Would it be wrong and un-decorous of me to say I hope they fry the little rat bastard punk.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2012 - 09:13am PT
For all the relief among civil rights activists over the arrest, legal experts warned there is a real chance the case could get thrown out before it ever goes to trial because of the "stand your ground" law.

At a pretrial hearing, Zimmerman's lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence — a relatively low legal standard — that he acted in self-defense in order to get a judge to toss out the second-murder charges. And if that fails and the case does go to trial, the defense can raise the argument all over again.

There's a "high likelihood it could be dismissed by the judge even before the jury gets to hear the case," Florida defense attorney Richard Hornsby said. Karin Moore, an assistant professor of law at Florida A&M University, said the law "puts a tremendous burden on the state to prove that it wasn't self-defense."
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:26am PT
The authorities told him to stand down. He got out of his car and pursued anyway. He had intention to pursue and was not being attacked. Sounds like murder not self defense.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2012 - 09:34am PT
Yea, but it is FL.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2012 - 10:21am PT
It's never that easy. just ask OJ............
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 13, 2012 - 10:41am PT
Also Riley, what the media reports may not be the full information and it may not be accurate. This is not an indictment of the media, or saying they are purposely misleading. It is just the case that often in these types of situations, what the public hears and what the reality is differs. It can be due to someone reporting incorrect info to a reporter. Information not released to the media that paints a slanted picture. Or even one side running a PR campaign and using the media to do it. Or it could be some form of media just being dishonest.

I have worked as an expert witness in one case and I can tell you that the media's presentation of the case was massively wrong in every way! The narrative painted in the did not remotely resemble the reality. The public was outraged given what they knew. But they knew a complete fantasy.

Still, it's not to say that what we've heard is the full and complete truth. It may be, but it may not be either.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 13, 2012 - 10:42am PT
For all the relief among civil rights activists over the arrest, legal experts warned there is a real chance the case could get thrown out before it ever goes to trial because of the "stand your ground" law.

At a pretrial hearing, Zimmerman's lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence — a relatively low legal standard — that he acted in self-defense in order to get a judge to toss out the second-murder charges. And if that fails and the case does go to trial, the defense can raise the argument all over again.

Tradman, if the case were in Vermont, what do you think Zimmmerman (or VT, depending on how you look at it) would need to prove to assert self-defense? By what burden of proof?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2012 - 11:06am PT
I was licenced in VT as an armed guard for my friends escort service. never actually worked for him but the guy was one of our martial arts students and wanted me on the books most likly so he could spray about how many Black belts he had on board. I was also a competition pistol shooter at that time. Primarly competing in IPSC but shot a few Bowling pin matches, steel matches and Police Practical Combat. Shot about 25 matches a year. I was the #2 shooter in the state(small state) from 1988 to 1992 when I lost interst and got back into climbing.

VT is fairly strict about shooting people. The person you shoot must not only be threatening annother life at the moment that you shoot him but must also have the means to carry out that threat. No wiggle room for phantom threats like FL where you may shoot when afraid even if the threat is not real. You may also shoot someone in the comission of a felony though I do not know the details of that option. We have very few homocides in the state. generaly less than 10 per year? The last one that I clearly remember as a self defense trial was the guy in chester who went nuts @ a softball game with an AX. Some redneck went to his truck, got his deer rifle and messed up the first shot. Hit ax man in the leg on round one, finished him off as he was crawling away and went down for murder 2. In VT past threats do not count. The threat must be iminent. It was ruled that after the aught 6 to the leg Ax man was wimpering like a kicked dawg and crawling for his life therfore no longer an iminent threat when drunk redneck plugged him in the back. Not certain how that would have gone down in FL but most likly they would have given the deer hunter a medal...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Apr 13, 2012 - 11:50am PT
"The authorities told him to stand down."


that's simply not true, philo; z said he was "following" and the dispatcher said, "we don't need you to do that", which is NOT a command; you may consider that flimsy semantics, but there's a huge difference between a cop saying, "freeze" and a cop saying, "i'd like to talk to you"; with the first, i'd be disobeying a command and,thus, fleeing; with the second, i'm simply declining an invitation.


"He got out of his car and pursued anyway."


again, "pursue" implies intent to do harm; z was simply following martin (based on the evidence released so far); that is NOT against the law and well within anybody's rights; it's also perfectly reasonable for a neighborhood watch to "follow" a suspicious person

"He had intention to pursue and was not being attacked."

yes, he intended to follow marting, but the evidence released so far indicates that Z was attacked; alan dershowitz gives an excellent explanation as to why this charge should be tossed out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSK9tMfLmbc


"Sounds like murder not self defense."

not even close despite your emotional response to the story; here's an excellent explanation of florida law and what the prosecution faces in trying to get a conviction:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/12/guide-to-florida-murder-law


prediction: plea deal to manslaughter, 3-5 years, z serves one year; incessant huffing and puffing through the election cycle with various bills to limit gun ownership, restrict carry permits, and revise current syg laws all of which are quietly defeated with bipartisan support AFTER the elections are over


ps: yes, it is wrong for you to want z to "fry" for a SECOND-DEGREE murder charge before he's had his trial
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Apr 13, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
why did z follow martin? many here speculate that z wanted to "prove something"

why would martin attack a man who was following him? see above


martin was 6'2"; why would z attack a suspicious looking man who is bigger than him? and if z meant to do him harm why would he confront a bigger man without having his weapon drawn? and if z had his weapon drawn, why would martin not run or scream for help rather than getting into a scuffle with an armed man? and if z did intend harm and did have his weapon drawn, why did he allow martin to get close enough to punch him in the face, knock him down, and bang his head on the sidewalk (all of which, the evidence does show)?

likely, we'll never know (enough to satisfy everyone) what exactly happened, but speculation works both ways
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Apr 13, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
it doesn't matter that someone was shot; what matters is the situation in which someone was shot; so dershowitz' explanation is not "lame" regardless of how much you want to criticize the law

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 13, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
martin was 6'2
and 140 pounds. Almost 100lbs lighter than your hero.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
The affidavit by law enforcement paints a pretty sickening scenario. Z-man was told repeatedly to wait for the LEO. If he had, Martin would be alive today.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Apr 13, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
most of us here on this side are NOT claiming that it was "ok" for z to shoot or kill martin only that the LAW might exonerate him; we've been arguing, rather, that we must wait for all the evidence to come out rather than convicting a man (even if we believe he acted stupidly) of "murder" before a trial even begins and fomenting a situation that already includes a "bounty", innocent people being driven out of their home and into hiding, and threats to social order

yes, the evidence might show that z is guilty of a crime; even that scenario does not justify much of what has been said about z since nobody here knows anything about him other than what we have heard on the news/read on the internet


too bad for z that he isn't black; if he were, nobody would even know his name
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
Bottom line is someone's life better be in danger before you bust that cap. If not, consequences are on you, and they last a lifetime.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 13, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
It was about race cuz the shooter wasn't arrested after the initial investigation, but the black guy(Trevor Dooley) in a similar case in florida was charged soon after the initial investigation.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
The beat goes on. Tampa Bay Times 4-2-2012 excerpts:


the controversial 2005 law was just one of dozens of pro-gun laws that have gotten their start in Florida — forging the state's "Gunshine" reputation — before spreading to other parts of the country.

...

Florida has about 900,000 licensed concealed weapons carriers, far more than any other state and nearly twice as many as Texas.
...

Zimmerman was licensed to have the gun despite a prior arrest on a charge of assault on a law enforcement officer, which was dropped and domestic battery complaints. Unlike states that allow police to deny license applications based on personal character and arrest history, in Florida almost anyone who hasn't been convicted of a violent crime can qualify for a weapons license.

....

Even those who don't live in the state are benefiting from Florida's gun rights expansions. Florida is one of only two states that allow nonresidents to obtain mail-order gun licenses.

....

Potential penalties for crossing gun owners also came into play in the Trayvon Martin case, where police opted not to arrest Zimmerman. A police department can be sued if it arrests someone who is later found to be innocent under the stand your ground law.

Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. said in a statement that Florida statutes prohibited police from making a lawful arrest on the night Martin was killed. Bonaparte pointed to the stand your ground law, mentioning that the city could have been "held liable" if Zimmerman was later found innocent.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
hey FAT

We all know that you are in a league of your own. "Crying, there's no crying in law enforcement" (apologies to Tom Hanks).

Are you saying that the Sanford police should have arrested z-man the night of the killing? and not used the lame excuse of being afraid of being sued.

Superman never let a little kryptonite get in his way of doing the right thing.




the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 13, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
It was about race cuz the shooter wasn't arrested after the initial investigation

Exactly. And In a town/region with a history of racism. Its telling when people don't get that.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
Using the past to help us go forward ("can't we all just get along"?):

While I cannot guarantee these with 100% certainty there is a pretty strong case that these postulates are all true.

if M had not gone to visit his father, z would not have shot M
if M had not gone to the 7-11, z would not have shot M
if z did not have any bullets, z would not have shot M
if z did not have his weapon with him, z would not have shot M
if z had remained in his truck as told, z would not have shot M

{fill in your own set, it's a long list}

What are we to conclude? Well obviously M should not have gone to visit his father.

So - stay away from your dad. Live strong. Don't take EPO.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
The affidavit by law enforcement paints a pretty sickening scenario.


Dershowitz take one:

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-04-10/opinion/opinion_dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-nightmare_1_encounter-evidence-prosecutor?_s=PM:OPINION

Dershowitz take two:

The affidavit is "irresponsible".

News report of Dershowitz TV appearance:

not only weak because it is completely consistent with a claim of self-defense. It is unethical because it omits exculpatory evidence favorable to George Zimmerman. Clearly Dershowitz is disgusted by what he thinks is a politically-motivated over-charging by a grandstanding prosecutor.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 13, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
His article is clear that what the public knows may differ from what evidence exists. Then he goes on to say the affidavit is 'irresponsible' yet he himself is not privy to any unreleased info, is he? If that is the case, it appears that D is grandstanding too.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
It is a freaking affidavit from law enforcement. It is not the national enquirer. D helped get OJ off. Irresponsible? What do you expect....

Martin was not committing any crime and was an invited guest of a resident. He was unarmed and shot to death for walking home from 7-11.

Z was repeatedly told not to follow him.

But let's wait for the facts.....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 13, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
I hate when the race card is pulled...

And...

Z was repeatedly told not to follow him.
There is only a single report of the police saying "Okay, we don't need you to do that."
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
I don't get what upsets people so much about the race card.

The facts will come out in the end.

If you aren't a racist it shouldn't bother you.

It's not like we don't have a history.

You can deny it. But it would be lie.

What you should be mad about is racism.

If there was no racism involved good.

There still is a dead kid.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
"michaeld; im with you. the black community should use all the energy they put into their million man marches to create jobs and get off welfare. more so when the race card is pulled with NO evidence."

Wow talk about the race card.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
Are have a legal obligation to do whatever a police dispatcher tells us to do?

What if that dispatcher had told the Wall Street Occupiers "we don't need you to do that" ? Would the occupiers then be legally obligated to fold up their tents and go home?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
There is only a single report of the police saying "Okay, we don't need you to do that."


how many reports are required nowadays to the police?


is a single report calling 911 somehow not sufficient, have to call multiple times now?

has the public been notified that a single call just won't cut it?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
michaeld; im with you. the black community should use all the energy they put into their million man marches to create jobs and get off welfare. more so when the race card is pulled with NO evidence.
Yep.... The majority is just an angry group of people.

and...

There is only a single report of the police saying "Okay, we don't need you to do that."


how many reports are required nowadays to the police?


is a single report calling 911 somehow not sufficient, have to call multiple times now?

has the public been notified that a single call just won't cut it?


You obviously have no clue what the hell is going on in this conversation. . . I was correcting him. Get over yourself.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
The non-emergency number is answered by 911 dispatchers there. He stopped calling 911 after about 8 straight calls, including one about a pothole. LOL!
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
Nope, it was a 911 dispatcher.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html

silly boy
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
Read the link, idiot. The non-emergency number is manned by 911 dispatchers in Sanford. His first 8 calls of the 46, were directly to 911.

A few more calls also went to 911.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
What's the point of having two separate phone numbers, if both phones are answered by the same person?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 13, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
I bet they have a handful on duty at all times and give priority to direct 911 calls.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 13, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
Again, MM, read the link slowly. He made a few more direct 911 calls later.

He just stopped calling 911 about potholes. LOL

Do you retract your claim that he never called 911?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
It stands to reason if blacks represent only ten percent of the population, then a black criminal would only have a one-in-ten chance of finding a black victim.

Maybe they're just practicing Equal Oportunity criming.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 13, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
Wow the white sheets are really out burning crosses on this one.
Some Americans are just so disgusting.
WBraun

climber
Apr 13, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
LOL ^^^^
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
he wasnt just some kid.

You were seventeen at some point. So was I. Did you do some stuff that was illegal or bordered on illegal? I did. Would it really matter to your mother and father that you did, if someone shot you dead either then or now?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
There is only a single report of the police saying "Okay, we don't need you to do that."

There is one report that has been publicized as reported above. We don't know if there are any others. We do know that z-man was instructed not to confront potential suspects in his training or indoctrination to the neighborhood watch program. I posted it way back in this thread.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 13, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
Where are the links to Martin's background? Would be interested in that.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
Then he goes on to say the affidavit is 'irresponsible' yet he himself is not privy to any unreleased info, is he? If that is the case, it appears that D is grandstanding too.

Dershowitz clearly likes to be in the limelight, but he is discussing the affidavit itself, which needs to stand on its own. Do the contents, warrant the charge? His opinion is that it does not. He is experienced and plenty smart.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Apr 13, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
he has been suspended from school multiple times and has been found with alot of jewelery that wasnt his.


That's kind of like saying a women deserved getting raped because she was walking alone late at night on a dark street and wearing a short skirt....
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 13, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
He is experienced and plenty smart.

No doubt!
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 14, 2012 - 12:32am PT
Amos "Grandpa" McCoy:

"What's the matter George, ya get kicked in the head or something?"

You coulda just walked away.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 14, 2012 - 12:37am PT
A comprehensive accounting of what has been publicly released about this event. Wiki is fast! Saw some info here I'd not seen before. Thought others may enjoy it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 14, 2012 - 12:41am PT
zBrown writes:

"What's the matter George, ya get kicked in the head or something? You coulda just walked away."


My Old Man sometimes tells me "sure you may be right, but is this the hill you want to die on?".
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 14, 2012 - 01:21am PT
Tradman,
I'm not sure whoever taught you about VT self defense law got it right, or perhaps you misunderstood them (or perhaps I misunderstand you).

Below is an explanation of the law of self-defense in VT, as set forth by the Supreme Court of Vermont in State v. Wheelock, 609 A. 2d 972 (1992). That's the court that gets to decide the law and the meaning of statutes in Vermont. The law isn't decided by so called "experts," or people who write articles that may be found in "literature searches," or police chiefs, DAs, self-defense instructors, news reporters, columnists, or anyone else. With some exceptions, opinions from courts are the only opinions that count in trying to figure out what the law is or what a statute means.

A couple of points:
(1) The right of self defense exists even if killing was not actually necessary, so long as it reasonably seemed as if it was.
(2) In Vermont at least, the individual attributes of the defendant must be considered. See the last sentence of the quote, noting that the a "nervous coward" isn't held to the same standard as a "fearless bully."

Bottom line: sounds like Zimmerman may be better off under the law in Vermont as compared to the FL SYG law, as the "nervous coward" description may well describe him. I'm not sure that he get's any credit for being a coward under FL SYG--that's certainly not apparent from the text of the law.




The right of self-defense does not require that one be actually assaulted, so long as the defendant's belief that he is in danger is founded on reasonably perceived circumstances. State v. Wood, 53 Vt. 560, 561, 567 (1881). In State v. Doherty, 72 Vt. 381, 396-97, 48 A. 658, 663 (1900), the reasonableness of defendant's belief was described as follows:

[A]lthough it might not have been necessary to have killed [the victim], if in view of his fear, fright, nervousness, or cowardice, it reasonably seemed to him, he could not be convicted of murder.... It is not whether the necessity actually existed, but whether in fact it reasonably seemed so to the respondent, under all the circumstances of the case, and ... the court [properly instructed] "If the circumstances were such as reasonably to lead the respondent to think that he was in danger of being killed or of great bodily harm by an assault from [the victim], he had a right to defend himself...."
(Emphases added). A jury, then, must assess the reasonableness of a defendant's apprehension, taking into account not only the circumstances with which he is confronted, but his individual attributes as well. Our law does not hold a nervous coward and a fearless bully to an identical reasonable person standard.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Apr 14, 2012 - 01:57am PT
It seems to me the FL law is not unusual, California's is similar. Sounds like VT may be the same if not more permissive.

I reckon the difference is in the laws that govern the right to walk around with a loaded firearm. From what I've read, Zimmeran would never be given a concealed carry permit in any county in California- obviously for good reason. The combo of a no retreat rule and liberal policy as to letting morons walk around with guns is a recipe for unnecessary shootings.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 14, 2012 - 02:06am PT
A broken sea shell that has been digested in a vat of hydrochloric acid and shot to a planet on the other side of the galaxy and is now stuck in the decending colon of an alien dung beast has a a better chance of rational thought in this case than you do!
You're an idiot, your daddy is an idiot and the more you talk the more I am sure your grand daddy and his daddy are also idiots. Just shut the hell up already.
A one dimensional flea, in the universe Flat, that has been ran over by a steam roller has a better grasp of all the sides of this incident than you.

BEST response on this thread!
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 14, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
Thank for your take on things FAT.

Meanwhile, Paint comes to Shove in sunny FLA (a few hundred miles south of Sanford). I wonder what it's like living down there? Before anyone pitches a fit and says this isn't real, I'll just point out that it's billed as reality.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 14, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
It's clear that Zimmerman approached Martin and not the other way around. When you confront someone, it's hardly "standing your ground"

Sorta like going up to someone in a bar, saying "you lookin at me punk" and shooting them if they push back....not really self-defense


Dershowitz clearly likes to be in the limelight, but he is discussing the affidavit itself, which needs to stand on its own. Do the contents, warrant the charge? His opinion is that it does not. He is experienced and plenty smart.

My memory is foggy but isn't he the same lawyer than helped get poor innocent OJ Simpson off the hook when the racists suspected he killed his wife. Funny how defense lawyers clients are never guilty

and would be interesting to see how the Zimmerman defenders now commented on the Simpson case back then.

peace

Karl
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 14, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
I'm pretty sure D. had something to say, but don't think he was on the "team" (Johnny Cochran, Robert Shaprio, F. Lee Bailey, and Barry Schenck).


But, let D speak for himself:

These "facts" give rise to several possible scenarios of what may actually have occurred on that dark rainy night. Under the Florida self-defense statute, it matters greatly what happened, most especially who "initially provoke[d] the use of force," and who started the physical encounter.

If Zimmerman initially provoked the deadly encounter, then he cannot invoke any "stand your ground" defense. He would then be under a legal obligation to "exhaust ... every reasonable means to escape."


the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 14, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
It's interesting to see how people choose sides on this.

For me I look at what started everything because that is not in dispute. Z pursued M. Until it goes to jury and we have most of the facts we don't know if Z is telling the truth about what happened after that or not. But since Z pursued M and killed him I would think he would be arrested and suspected of at least manslaughter. Since that didn't happen people were rightly pissed. There was a national outcry (and again charges of racism because the police let Z go without a good investigation).

In my mind I've read some other things that make me question Z's story. It's seems bogus and the 911 cries of help sound like a 17 year old not a 28 year old.

So for those who immediately jump on Z's side it's not about that evidence or reason. It's about what they WANT to believe. Typical of right wingers. And for those immediately ready to condemn Z and fry him without all the evidence, they are also showing their true colors.
WBraun

climber
Apr 14, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
It's the hoody, the hood that's guilty.

If you got it on you're guilty of doing something, what ever that is.

In Yosemite I see climbers with hoods up lookin down.

They're guilty of doin sumthin, probably adding a bolt or grabbing a piece of gear and then claiming all free.

They always get a way with this sh!t!!!!!

Somebody send me a Taser .......
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
My guess is a lot of defense attorneys privately do believe their clients are guilty.

Doesn't matter as they are contracted to provide the best defense possible.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 14, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
And for those immediately ready to condemn Z and fry him without all the evidence, they are also showing their true colors.

There's difference between wanting to fry him and believing that if you kill someone who did nothing to you and was not committing any crime, that person should be arrested and be examined by the legal system

peace

karl
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
Request:

Would someone explain to me just what the kid's grades in school have to do with this?
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 14, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Would someone explain to me just what the kid's grades in school have to do with this?

It's tangible to what Werner said.

If your dumb and have a hoody, your a worthless human being and up to no good.
Simple as that to many.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Apr 14, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
happie,


Having "jewelery that wasn't his" might denote a burglary or robbery suspect. I had not heard this claim before.


I'm still waiting to hear more info before jumping to a conclusion. I don't think this was a race based crime because Zman has had several African Americans come to his defense.



TheTool


Zimmerman did not know Martin had "jewelry that wasn't his" when he shot him.... That's why I said it was akin to blaming the short-skirted woman for her being raped.

As for being race-based - I have no idea and don't really care. But since the thread is full of conjecture, I might as well toss in that last night I was thinking about some things, and one memory that came up was of a volunteer fireman that a friend was married to...

That guy was a very gung-ho volunteer fireman. Always there and available on the scene. My friend began to wonder, how that could be, in such a spread out place as they lived, that out of all the volunteers, he seemed to be the one most often available. Even though he worked a full-time job. Why, it was almost as if those fires scheduled themselves around his itinerary...

She had other issues in the marriage and divorced the person, and I never did ask her if part of why she got the hell away was that she suspected her "upright citizen" was an arsonist.

You know - often when someone is "really interested" in pointing the fingers at others, it is because they are trying to deflect any attention from themselves....


At any rate - total conjecture and baseless, based on what we do know about this guy(not much) - but it occurred to me last night, after having glanced at that record of his rather frequent calls about suspicious behavior, that it would be pretty sickening if it ended up that he was the one committing some of the burglaries that were going on in that area.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
Manzanita Man,

It seems like the kid was a trouble maker.

But how is that relevant?

Ok, on second thought how about this?

BECAUSE the kid had a history of not so good grades and graffiti and maybe he stole some jewelry, then this would be a basis for the contention that he had the mentality
of perhaps being the one to "provoke" Zimmerman?

And so when Zimmerman shot him, it could have been because Z was in fear of his life,
the kid was maybe refusing to follow Zimmerman's "order" to maybe stop, maybe turned around and approached Zimmerman in a threatening manner?

Is that why the Trayvon's grades and trouble maker history are relevant?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 14, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
It seems that the only "Hoodies" some posters approve of have little eye holes cut in them.
I wonder how some of these same citizens would post if it were a dead white boy in Overton?

Ugly is as Ugly does.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Apr 14, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]


Last comment is key!!!
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 14, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
if you are going to bring up zmans past and make it relevant to this case, its only fair that trayvons past be brought up also. or is that not fair?

Fair enough.

Has anyone seen the actual report, rather than the paper's reporting of it?In any event, a screwdriver does not qualify as a "burglary" tool since it has so many other uses.

From what's been said M had a possible propensity for grafitti and jewelry (maybe an aspiring pawn star, receiver of stolen property, jewel thief, barterer of drugs for jewelry - who knows?).

Z on the other hand had a possible propensity for violence (assault on a police officer, domestic abuse).

In both cases neither was ever convicted.

Connect up the dots. Violence! Who got killed Z or M?



Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 14, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
If someone with an ugly history kills someone with a sketchy history, they still need to be accountable

peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Apr 14, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
Your brain ain't worth a sack of rotten dog sh#t.

Even if it were burning on your door step?
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 14, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
manzanita man, My good friend in Chico works for The State of California in foster adoptions...She is good peeps, and works hard to protect the kids, and tries to find good homes.
She loves to hear a success story... I'm glad for you....

You may be successful with your life, but your words sometimes come across as something approaching hate...maybe work on that, and you will be a better person....

I judge people by their words and actions, not what they look like.. but it's not always easy and I struggle with it sometimes.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 14, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
so when i see people using stuff that happened to

their great great great great grandparents to justify their behavior, it

gets me a little ticked. especially when they have no grounds. i am sorry

for my rants, i should be better than that.

It's a sad story you tell. You didn't get a fair deal. Trayvon Martin did not either. I'd think from your experience, you'd be sympathetic. Trayvon isn't saying anything about his great ... grandparents - he's dead.

You certainly don't need to be sorry for speaking up, but you do need to listen too.

wildone

climber
EP
Apr 14, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
Good thing you didn't get shot and killed!
Right?
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Apr 14, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
So you think it's Ok to use the I was beat everyday card.

I spent the first 12 years of my life being beat & with a bloody nose every day. I learned early how to hide it & suck the blood backwards.

It didn't make me a racist.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 15, 2012 - 01:49am PT
then, on my 18th birthday, i

was told to get out. uncle sam wasnt paying anymore. 1 suitcase, no car, no

job and homeless. and i was relieved that i was no longer under their

control. that was june 1982. for the next 11 years, i was arrested and

imprisoned a few times for drugs. then i grew up. i realized that i cant

blame my past for my future. i got my life together and now own my own

business. i didnt use my past to become a f**k up and blame everything on

that. i grew up a slave, so when i see people using stuff that happened to

their great great great great grandparents to justify their behavior, it

gets me a little ticked. especially when they have no grounds.


I figured that something had warped your since or morality and that you were carrying a lot of baggage. Looks like I was right.

"on my 18th birthday, i was told to get out. uncle sam wasnt paying anymore. 1 suitcase, no car, no job and homeless. and i was relieved that i was no longer under their
control. that was june 1982. for the next 11 years, i was arrested and
imprisoned a few times for drugs."

First, how nice that you were allowed to still be alive at age 18, unlike Trayvon.

" i didnt use my past to become a f**k up and blame everything on
that. i grew up a slave, so when i see people using stuff that happened to
their great great great great grandparents to justify their behavior"

Did your stepdad club you in the head hard enough to cause brain damage? Because you aren't making any sense. Trayvon didn't survie long enough to have a past. He was just walking back from a convenience store with his skittles and had someone with a gun start following him because the guy didn't like the way he looked. After voicing fear to his girlfriend he starts running for his father's house. Zimmerman thought he was running for an exit from the community to "escape" and wanted to stop him.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 15, 2012 - 01:52am PT
And manzanita man, please don't ever have kids yourself. Given your past as an abused child together with your current mental state, any children you are around would be at very high risk of being abused by you.

You've internalized the hatred and become a predator.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 15, 2012 - 09:45am PT
Thanks for sharing your personal story manzanita man. I wish you peace and continued healing (and we all need continued healing whether we know it or not)

I wonder what your fate would have been without a government program to arrange your support? It's too bad you wound up with exploiters rather than compassionate helpers

I know from observing others that frequently the children of Abuse become the abusers. If you've avoided that cycle of pain, I'm happy for you.

Not everyone is so blessed. We can't expect everyone to have our gifts. Chris Sharma could chime in on Super Topo and say "I climbing 5.13+ at 14 years old, I don't know why you guys can't"

Peace

Karl
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 17, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
manzanita man, She works for~ California State Adoptions for Butte, Lassen, and Tehama county, here in the North state... I can ask her....give me some info, through the supertopo email....

Click on my name below my picture, and the email click is on the right side....

nita...
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 17, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
graniteclimber: you must be related to al sharpton with a comment like that.

That's what I was thinking. Just another person stirring sh#t up.
Speaking of that a**hat Sharpton:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/17/us/sharpton-holder-backlash/index.html?hpt=us_c1
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 17, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
i have avoided that cycle of pain. besides a bar fight here and there.

Best way to be sure of that is for you is not to have any kids, biological or foster. You have a lot of bottled up hatred, looking for an outlet. I can't say I blame you.

Nita said it better then me: "You may be successful with your life, but your words sometimes come across as something approaching hate...maybe work on that, and you will be a better person...."
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 17, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
you must be related to al sharpton

I don't much care for Sharpton. I think he feeds on race-related incidents like a vampire, using them to increase his own power without adding anyting.

One criticism that conservatives have right is that most violence against blacks is from other blacks. Sharpton could be spending a lot more time addressing that.

However the reason this case is receiving the attention it is getting is because it appears that Zimmerman targeted Trayvon because he was black. Also, it appears that Zimmerman got a lot less scrutiny because he was perceived to be "white" (or at least not black). If it was Zimmerman who was black and Trayvon was white, I suspect the police would have looked into pressing charges much more seriously then they did.

We can't say whether or not Zimmerman is guilty--he is entitled to his day in court. But I think we need to ask why there was no arrest until over a month later when a special prosecutor was appointed? A special prosecutor shouldn't even have been needed.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 20, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
You don't seem to be waiting Fattrad. I'd fight for my life too if a guy went after me. But I don't carry a gun so I can't take the easy way out.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 20, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
That's the whole point. We'll never know what was the final escalation to physical confrontation was. We only have Zimmerman's word for that. If we step back, we see that Zimmerman was the main cause of the confrontation by continuing the pursuit. It will be hard to get a unanimous jury decision.

Now we hear Zimmerman say today, "I did not know if he was armed". Can't be too careful can you. Use your gun first.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 21, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
Free George Zimmerman (oops)!


Edit:

Do you think the tall black guy, could handle the thin yellow guy without pulling his piece? Yeah, I know the size differential wasn't as great as was initially reported.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Apr 25, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
Prosecutorial overcharging is dangerous not only because it isn’t fair, but also because it’s akin to vigilantism.

If a prosecutor engages in vigilante activity, the public will, too.


It also opens the prosecutor up to fierce criticism for the next case that has similar facts but involves different “types” of individuals.

For example, what if instead of a security guard looking out for suspicious activity, Zimmerman had been a woman, suspicious of her husband when he didn’t come home after work. What if she found him leaving a barroom with another woman and surreptitiously followed him down the sidewalk. What if he became furious when he saw her spying on him, so he knocked her to the ground and started punching her in the face, slamming her head into the sidewalk. What if she screamed for help, but nobody came, so she pulled out her pistol and shot the guy dead.

Name one prosecutor who would file ANY charges against the woman, much less murder in the second degree.

http://www.enterprisenews.com/opinions/x101302617/WENDY-J-MURPHY-Zimmerman-prosecutors-could-learn-from-John-Adams


graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 25, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
Corniss Chopper, I agree with you.

For example, what if instead of a security guard looking out for suspicious activity, Zimmerman had been a woman, suspicious of her husband when he didn’t come home after work. What if she found him leaving a barroom with another woman and surreptitiously followed him down the sidewalk. What if he became furious when he saw her spying on him, so he knocked her to the ground and started punching her in the face, slamming her head into the sidewalk. What if she screamed for help, but nobody came, so she pulled out her pistol and shot the guy dead.

Name one prosecutor who would file ANY charges against the woman, much less murder in the second degree.

So yes, if Zimmerman was a woman (instead of a wannabe cop who harrassed random people and was particularly afraid of blacks) and if Trayvon was Zimmerman's husband (instead of just a black kid who didn't know Zimmerman and was walking back to his Dad's house with his snacks) and Zimmerman (a woman, remember) was following her "husband" because he was with another man, and Trayvon (remember, "her" husband instead of a black kid who didn't know "her" and was just minding his own business) started punching her in the face and slamming her head into the sidewalk...

Then YES, it is unlikely that charges would be filed.

But Zimmerman wasn't a woman, Trayvon was not "her" husband, and the rest is all made up fantasy as well.

So the only thing this proves is your inability to deal with reality.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Apr 25, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
graniteclimber - Wow! How much effort are you expending to act so
dumb? (Please say a lot!)


Florida Special Prosecutor Angela Corey's 2nd degree murder affidavit willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution and
is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affidavit swears
to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie.”

ie the picture of Zimmermans bloody head left out of affidavit.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
undisputed evidence

There has been very little brought into evidence as far as I've heard.

That picture may or may not be Zimmerman's head. It may or may not have been taken sometime around the time of the killing.

Following your line, "everything" should have been in the affidavit, thereby obviating the need for having a trial. It would be alot cheaper i spoz. The affidavit could go to Rush Limbaugh for adjudication.

Anyway, "in the halls of justice, the only justice is in the halls".

Up against the wall



monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Even if it was a pic of his head, does not really matter. No stitches needed. Head punctures often bleed more. Shaved head makes it stand out. Lets see the wounds with the blood wiped away. Probably a couple of pin pricks.

The prosecutors don't dispute a physical confrontation. Martin gets to "stand his ground" too. CC and Fatrad keep falling in the same hole.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
Addendum:

The emergency personal onsite declined to send z-man to the hospital. I have not heard if he requested to be taken.

Edit addendum:

You (chopper) are in some powerful company with respect to saying that she overcharged (Dershowitz, e.g.). Is she a villain? Who knows? There are a number of people who are of the opinion that the Americans in that part of America are "stupid"? Is she stupid? Who knows?



fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
The only thing that matters is what happened at the very moment the two guys first physically confronted each other. Everything else is bullsh#t.

And as near as I can tell, nobody really knows except the guy that's still alive.

So it comes down to physical evidence which we know nothing about.

But debate away....
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
^^ agree ^^

But, the prosecutor said they don't have any evidence on how the physical confrontation started except for Zimmerman's word.

So the jury has to take an overview look and believability view. Harder to get a unanimous decision on murder 2. Manslaughter more likely.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
So why do you a**holes think Zimmerman is a bad guy? Because he's white and shot an unarmed kid after following him?

What if you saw someone in your neighborhood and they walked into a driveway. Then on you way back to your door they confronted you and you got your ass beat.

It's okay.

-----------------------------------------------------------

So why do you a**holes think Martin is a bad guy? Because he's black and jumped a white guy?

What if you were walking home and were being followed by someone. Wouldn't you want to go see why they're following you? You might even get pissed off and lay a hand on the short little guy to prove your a big man. Then get shot to death.

It's not okay.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 25, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
It doesn't matter why anyone was following anyone. Even if the black guy was seen smashing car windows and rifling through the glove boxes it wouldn't matter since you can't shoot anyone for that. Even if the hispanic ran right up to the black guy and yelled "Hey muther-fu##$, what the $##$ do you think you're doing here?" that doesn't give the black guy the right to swing first.

All that matters is who swung or pulled a gun/knife first and what happened in the next 40 seconds or so.

Of course jury's rarely follow laws.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
a post dated Aug. 24, 2005, Zimmerman downplayed an alleged domestic dispute involving his ex-girlfriend: "Im still free! The ex hoe tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it! Big Mike, reppin the Dverse security makin me look a million bucks, broke her down! Thanks to everyone for checkin up on me!"

In another, on Aug. 30, 2005, he boasted about how a pair of felony charges related to an alleged assault on a police officer were dropped. "2 felonies dropped to 1 misdemeanor!!!!!!!!!!!" Zimmerman wrote.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 2, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
I had thought the Florida case's 15 minutes of fame were over, but seems like it's still reverberating across the country . . .

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/26/suspect-attacked-white-teen-because-am-angry-about-trayvon/?intcmp=obinsite

As they say, you couldn't make this stuff up!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 2, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
Where's JJ and AS?

Sigh... When "Stand your Ground" would come in handy....

I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 11, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
I guess it works different if you're black with a gun

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 Saying he had no discretion under state law, a judge sentenced a Jacksonville, Florida, woman to 20 years in prison Friday for firing a warning shot in an effort to scare off her abusive husband.

Marissa Alexander unsuccessfully tried to use Florida's controversial "stand your ground" law to derail the prosecution, but a jury in March convicted her of aggravated assault after just 12 minutes of deliberation.......
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
May 15, 2012 - 12:36am PT
Profiling to the limit. No Southern Comfort.

A postcard commemorating the lynching; written on the back: “This is the barbecue we had last night. My picture is to the left with a cross over
it. Your son, Joe [Myers].”


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 15, 2012 - 12:44am PT
Karl,

A "warning shot" is NEVER warranted, EVER, because it's always dangerous. It's proof of reckless endangerment with a GUN.

No wonder the law hit her with the Million Pound Shithammer, because it should have. Twenty years sounds about right to me.

Anyone who thinks "warning shots" are appropriate needs to be separated from the rest of us, for at least a couple decades.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 16, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/16/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
This could be the end of the affair
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
May 16, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
Why?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
May 16, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
We've always said there was a physical confrontation. One guy was better with his fists, but the other guy had a gun.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 16, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
Why?

The Dr. testimony and physical evidence that Zimmerman got his butt kicked pretty much blows apart the story that Zimmerman went "hunting" for Trayvon, unless you think that Zimmerman is an incredibly bad "hunter" (possible, but highly speculative). Hunters armed with guns don't generally get their butts kicked by unarmed "prey."

I'm not a criminal defense lawyer, but in my experience, juries and judges love physical evidence and anything they can use to try to support or refute a witnesses's statements. The butt kicking evidence (even if it may be somewhat disputed by the prosecution) fits in great with Zimmerman's story that he used deadly force after finding himself on the losing end of a serious fight; it doesn't support the "hunting" theory that people on this thread have posited.

I'm not at all defending Zimmerman's course of conduct, this is just dispassionate analysis of the likelihood of conviction based on the publicly available evidence.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 16, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
What injuries - besides bullet holes - did Martin end up with?

( I either didn't read it, or I don't remember )
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
May 16, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Chaz - think it noted his had injuries on his knuckles also.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
May 16, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
So, I stalk and confront you while armed, and you defend yourself, I get to shoot you.

Makes sense to me~!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 16, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
that Zimmerman got his butt kicked pretty much blows apart the story that Zimmerman went "hunting" for Trayvon

Uh, no, it doesn't. He left his vehicle and followed the kid, despite the instructions from the police dispatcher not to do so. He decided he could accost this kid because he was packing and his gun would get him out of a sticky situation if anything went wrong. He accosted a child who feared for his safety as he clearly indicated to his girlfriend on the phone, a child who was doing nothing wrong and had every right to be where he was. Then once he was getting his ass beat by this scared kid who had no idea wtf this stalking clown was doing following him at night, he drew a gun and murdered him in cold blood.

F*#k that coward Zimmerman, I hope he rots in a prison cell for the rest of his life.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
May 16, 2012 - 04:27pm PT

The Dr. testimony and physical evidence that Zimmerman got his butt kicked pretty much blows apart the story that Zimmerman went "hunting" for Trayvon
Non sequitur! All sorts of unintended mishaps occur on hunting trips, climbing trips, acid trips, or even trips to the store.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 16, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
. . .he drew a gun and murdered him in cold blood.

Ummmm, I believe that shooting someone while you're getting your arse beat down is really the opposite of what "cold blood" means, even if (you think) the gut deserved an arse beating.

But I actually agree with you and Gary to a large extent--Zimmerman certainly created the mess that left someone else dead. Maybe conceptually it's a little like the Casey Anthony case: you know the defendant is guilty of something, but it's not easy prove all the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

Anyway I know the discussion on this can get repetitive and I'm a bad offender, so I'll pipe down on this until there's new developments; I just thought the Dr. testimony is highly relevant to Zimmerman's self defense so I passed it along.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 16, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
is really the opposite of what "cold blood" means

Yep, poor word choice on my part. "Crime of passion" or whatever the terminology is for 2nd degree.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 16, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Crimper-g writes:

"Chaz - think it noted his had injuries on his knuckles also."


That sounds like an ordinary fist-fight to me.

I've seen a hundred of them - maybe a couple hundred - and nobody shot anybody.
( one guy, after being tossed from the bar - actually tossed - retrieved a gun from his truck and shot the bar up. he didn't hit anybody )
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 16, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
Zimmerman is guilty of horrible judgement. He knew what he was starting when he went into the situation.

"I have a gun."
"I can use it to defend myself."
"Sh*t I'm getting my a** beat!"


I don't believe he wanted to kill Martin, but he did profile him. He felt safe and in charge with a gun. When the fecal matter his the reciprocating mechanism (sh*t hit the fan) he went to plan B, gun.

Sadly they can't give you jail time for being a d*mb f*ck with poor judgement.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 17, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
Autopsy: Drug THC found in Trayvon Martin's system

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/17/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 17, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Fattrad, do you remember the case of a man shooting a burgular after warning him repeatedly 10-15 times in about 5 minutes that he was going to shoot the guy, then being arrested?

Elk Grove, CA

3 guys breaking to a car

owner comes out, asks them to leave

2 leave, 1 stays

He says he's going to go grab his gun

The guy says fine, do it

The owner goes to get his gun

Comes back, and warns him again,

The guy doesn't leave

The owner shoots him with a .22

The owner gets arrested for attempted murder, or aggravated assault, or etc.

All those violent weed heads. What is your point?

Sometimes weed makes your judgement unclear, and sometimes gives you invincible powers. Haven't you ever toked then decided to on sight 5.8 slab that you have to down climb later?


michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 17, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
Fattrad, i'm no lawyer-

Would it be illegal for the owner to go up and push the guy away from his car? Or is that also illegal?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 17, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
Who's that?

I don't get it.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 17, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
I think he shot him in the foot. Oh well.

I live in an Iraqi style compound.

The only thing close to a break in we've had is the next door neighbor kid thought it'd be a good idea to take a taxi from jail to his house, run away without paying the fare, and hiding behind my apartment under our Kayak.



, I don't need your help, Jesus.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 17, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
, I DO need your help, Jebus.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 17, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Crimpergirl, you paid attention to the lead-off question.

"Terrible law."

Me too.

No real discussion needed.

You like

Unlike

edit: Tradman, are you still sick of this thing? Sicker?
I hope not. I got to go puke, myself.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 17, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Do you have unlimited texting?
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
May 17, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
I guess we'll never know about zman's drug use, since although he had just killed someone he wasn't tested. Steroids?

Some things that experts like fattrad know, but I didn't, from the article.

Toxicology tests found elements of the drug in the teenager's chest blood -- 1.5 nanograms per milliliter of one type (THC), as well as 7.3 nanograms of another type (THC-COOH) -- according to the medical examiner's report

Concentrations of THC routinely rise to 100 to 200 ng/ml after marijuana use, though it typically falls to below 5 ng/ml within three hours of it being smoked, according to information on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's website.


He also noted levels of THC, which can linger in a person's system for days, can spike after death in certain areas of the body because of redistribution.

While some states have zero-tolerance policies for any drug traces for driving while impaired, others set certain benchmarks, the website of California's Department of Alcohol and Drug Programs notes. In Nevada, that equates to 2 ng/ml for THC and 5 ng/ml for THC-COOH -- also known as marijuana metabolite. The cutoff level in Ohio is 2 ng/ml for THC and 50 ng/ml for THC-COOH.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
May 17, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
This will clearly be a case where "I fought the law and and I won".

You'll be breakin' rocks in the hot sun.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/stand-ground-legal-defenses-worked-florida-cases-where-183345434.html

This is what I was alludeing to in my OP. I am sympathetic to a stand you ground law in theory but certainly not if in practice if it lets murders go free.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Jun 5, 2012 - 08:33am PT
Zimmerman seems to have issues with truth.

George Zimmerman's latest entanglement with law enforcement was a "mistake" and "has undermined his credibility, which he will have to work to repair," his attorney said in a statement Monday...

The latest comments from his attorney, Mark O'Mara, come on the heels of Zimmerman's return to jail after a judge revoked his bond. Zimmerman had been free and in hiding while awaiting trial.

Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester said at a hearing Friday that Zimmerman had falsely represented his financial state when the $150,000 bond amount was granted.

Zimmerman's wife had testified in April that the couple had limited funds, but prosecutors came across recorded jailhouse calls between them in which they discussed donations from a website the family had set up to fund Zimmerman's defense. That website had apparently raised more than $200,000.

The defense — in the most passive of passive voices — now says Zimmerman "allowed his financial situation to be misstated in court" and that he knows it was a mistake.

"The audio recordings of Mr. Zimmerman's phone conversations while in jail make it clear that Mr. Zimmerman knew a significant sum had been raised by his original fundraising website," O'Mara's office said in a statement. "We feel the failure to disclose these funds was caused by fear, mistrust and confusion."

It's a painful acknowledgement for the defense that backs up what many legal experts had speculated — that if it appears Zimmerman lied about his money, then his credibility could be at risk in trial.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-zimmermans-lawyer-undermined-credibility-20120604,0,5710222.story
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Jun 21, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
zimmermans account...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/21/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jun 23, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
George Zimmerman's wife charged with perjury
(June 13, 2012)


http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/george-zimmermans-wife-charged-with-perjury/1235046

"If Mrs. Zimmerman intentionally structured the financial transactions in a manner to keep the offense under $10,000, not only may she have committed perjury in the state case, but she also may have run afoul of several federal statutes and could face serious federal criminal charges,"
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jul 6, 2012 - 11:40am PT
Judge declares it's a sin to tell a lie.

Don't pass go, no free get outa jail. Don't hide your passport.


In his order, the judge accused Zimmerman of committing a new felony — lying while providing evidence about bail — and hinted that he might be the subject of future contempt proceedings.

Lester was troubled, he wrote, that Zimmerman and his wife hid the money and that George Zimmerman had, until recently, a second, undisclosed passport.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-06/news/os-george-zimmerman-prepares-to-leave-jail-20120706_1_murder-defendant-new-felony-george-zimmerman
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 19, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
Sociopath? Hardly. The other stuff? Perhaps.

From what little I can tell from the interview I'd say he's just a garden variety simpleton stuck in an unfortunate series of events. Bad decisions were made on both sides but in end someone brought a pistol to a boxing match and we know what happens then.

The whole interview with the parents of the kid he shot is just for show. The shooter clearly isn't too bright and hasn't been coached very well on what to say. Why would someone apologize for killing someone they were truly afraid of and getting beaten by? They wouldn't. Yet the whole premise of the article is that he's not begging the parents for forgiveness.

Real sociopaths generally do not call 911 and report suspicious behavior and then remain on the call while they plan to beat and murder somebody.

The only thing he's guilty of is getting out of his car to play detective. With no non-lethal weapons on him (mace/stun gun/baton) his choice to pursue a suspected criminal alone was obviously the wrong one. Once getting the sh#t kicked out of him his choices boiled down to continue getting beaten or killed or to shoot.

It doesn't matter if Trayvon was or wasn't a thug or had THC in his system. It doesn't matter why Zimmerman decided to play detective or was a founding member of the West Coast Nazi party.

All that matters was what happened when each guy got within fist throwing range. Who threw the first punch? From the physical evidence that seems pretty clear to me.

Unfortunate bad decisions on each side. But I don't see a real case for a sociopath or truly "evil" behavior in either one.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Jul 19, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
All that matters was what happened when each guy got within fist throwing range. Who threw the first punch? From the physical evidence that seems pretty clear to me.

It does?
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jul 19, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
It does?

Your killing a person who is defending themself from you because you started a fight with them is not acceptable. On the other hand, killing someone who attacks you first is acceptable and is considered self defense.

It matters a lot who starts it.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 19, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
Doesn't meet the threshold for lethal force even if Martin approached him.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jul 19, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
The physical evidence shows Martin landed his blows, not whether he instigated or not.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 19, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
Learn how to fight, you stupid runt f*#k.
"I'm gettin my a*# kicked, better kill this dude. I thought I was bad, and I am...bad at defending myself."
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jul 19, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
I though Riley W. was talkin' about Hannity.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 19, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
Sociopath? Hardly.

I think this lady would disagree with you:

A woman with close ties to George Zimmerman and his family told investigators that members of Zimmerman’s family were boastfully proud racists and that for more than a decade Zimmerman sexually molested her.

“It started when I was six,” the woman told investigators during an interview on the morning of March 20. “We’d all lay in front of the TV and we had pillows and blankets and he would reach under the blankets and try to do things and I would try to push him off but he was bigger and stronger and older,” the woman said, audibly weeping in the Florida State Attorney's Office interview recording released Monday. “It was in front of everybody and I don’t know how I didn’t say anything, I just didn’t know any better.”

The woman, identified in various reports and in taped interviews with investigators as witness 9, said that from the age of six to 19 Zimmerman repeatedly fondled her, at times penetrating her vagina with his finger.

A number of news sources have reported that the woman is a relative of the Zimmerman family, though her exact relationship to Zimmerman was redacted from the interview recording. Zimmerman's legal team, in a statement released later Monday night, identified the woman as a cousin.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
I thought a lawyer always advises you not to talk about the case, or as my lawyer likes to put it "Keep your goddamn mouth shut".
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Jul 19, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
This Florida resident has video to back up his version of events...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jul 19, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
Hannity is a racist, pederast? I knew it. You wonder why you've never seen Hannity and Sandusky in a room at the same time? Is lynching still legal in Florida?

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2012 - 05:28am PT
I think that last video summs it up pretty good. bad guys with masks , guns and a bat threaten everyone in the room you shoot them and are a hero. Stalk someone you think might be a bad guy, get in a confrontation with the person YOU STALKED and then shoot that person because you are loseing a fist fight that you caused by stalking someone at night = manslaughter and ashole loser.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 25, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
I'm letting the judge jury and prosecutors make the call. They will be looking at better evidence than any of us will get third hand or from typically sloppy biased reporting.

More indepth reporting here: http://legalinsurrection.com/author/law-of-self-defense/

Without a lot of the BS the regular news has.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:48am PT
Manzanita Man raged
this is for all you tm supporters. i think us whites should have a million man march[ oh wait, we are all working]. where is al and jesse now? or all you other hypocrites that come out of the woodwork whenever there is a white on black crime? if this would have been a white man beating on a black women all of you would have come crawling out.

Good to know that racism on Supertopo isn't limited to the subversive kind. Are we advertising on Stormfront or Free Republic these days? Or is TGT just pulling some buddies from breitbart who feel free to speak their minds?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
WTF is your point?

The question should be WHERE is your point. Which is on the top of his head.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
http://www.hlntv.com/interactive/2013/06/17/zimmerman-trayvon-map-interactive?hpt=hp_t2
Above seems like a pretty good analysis of the TM incident.
Whatever happened, if you think that was like a KKK lynching, ummm, you're wrong. Just a weird hispanic guy wannabe-cop who ran into the wrong juvenile delinquent, and vice versa.
As for why the case has got so much national attention--to me, that's the most interesting part of the story.

From my random following of the case, Zimmerman should be acquitted as there's boat loads of reasonable doubt. That's not to say he's factually (as opposed to legally) not guilty, just that there really isn't a lot of compelling evidence as to what happened once TM confronted Zimm.

But that's not really a prediction--the jury can do whatever it wants, and I don't have much confidence in Zimmerman's lawyers (starting off with a knock-knock joke? Unreal.)

I also don't like the fact that it's an all female jury. I'd rather have some men, who are more likely to have been involved in fist fights, and less likely to have been trained that the proper way to deal with a potentially violent situation is to flee. I would have liked to have had some young blue collar guys (of any race) who understand that sometimes sh#t happens.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
GUYS HERE IS A VIDEO OF A BLACK GUY BEATING A WHITE DUDE THIS IS PROOF THAT ZIMMERMAN IS AN INNOCENT MAN AND ALSO SLAVERY WAS OK
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
...just that there really isn't a lot of compelling evidence as to what happened once TM confronted Zimm.

Other than one dude's dead and the other is holding a smoking gun.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
Other than one dude's dead and the other is holding a smoking gun.
Yup, that's what may happen when two guys get into it and there's a gun involved.
Especially when one guy doesn't know the other guy has a gun, is pissed off at the other guy, and is planning on kicking his ass.
Not too surprising that someone ends up dead, but that doesn't establish the elements of any crime.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
Blahblah "...that doesn't establish the elements of any crime." I don't know where you practice law, but in most jurisdictions (though possibly not in "stand your ground" Florida)that scenario surely does establish the elements of at least manslaughter, and possibly murder. And the "loads of reasonable doubt" is only there if the jury buys Zimmerman's version. Don't forget the fact--undisputed and recorded on the 911 call--that Zimmerman specifically ignored the dispatcher's instructions not to follow the individual. That, coupled with his words in the first 911 call, as quoted in the prosecutor's opening, is surely strong evidence of his hostile state of mind---legally "malice", a key element of the crime of murder.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 26, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Alan, there are a few problems with what you wrote.
In the hypothetical case where there is no evidence other than a dead body and someone holding a gun, I don't see how that, without more, establishes any crime. The dead person could have shot himself and the other person could have just picked up the gun. Regardless of whether you agree with me on this example, I'd hope you agree with the general point that elements of a crime need to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. That's not really a controversial point.

Anyway, the dispatcher didn't instruct Zimm not to follow TM, although that could be a reasonable interpretation. Nor is it clear that he did follow TM after the conversation with the dispatcher.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying there's not enough evidence for a jury to find him guilty of what he's charged with or a lesser offense.

But some of the evidence seems incredible to me. E.g., apparently one witness described the voice pleading for help as that of a "boy." (She had never heard what she knew to be TM or Zimm's voice before or after incident.) How could someone distinguish between a 17 year old and twenty-something year old, especially a voice made by someone who is getting beaten at the time and possibly can barely breathe? While a 17 year old is legally a minor, that's just a legal fiction; biologically, a 17 year old is a man and has a man's voice.

Considering that FL produced a jury that acquitted Casey Anthony, I'd be very scared if I were Zimm.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jun 26, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
At 17, biologically NOT all males of this age are "men" (deeper voice, chest/facial hair, etc...), or necessarily considered adult males.


Purely speculative and over-ruled!!!
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
How do you stand your ground in a swamp.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jun 26, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
Manzanita Man where is the link to your "stats" ie proof of 70,000 black on white rapes and "0" white on black rapes...also 40% of all rapes go unreported.

I don't like any type of racists but I don't take offense if I was to be called a "cracker" I don't believe I'm a cracker and that is what counts.

In fact a crazy ass white person was stalking him...with a gun...I'm surprised he hasn't been charged with impersonating a police officer...

I think Zimmerman deserves some jail time...whether it is for any degree of murder or manslaughter...I would prefer people like him get sent a message (message is call the police and let them handle "suspicious persons").
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 26, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
I don't like any type of racists but I don't take offense if I was to be called a "cracker" I don't believe I'm a cracker and that is what counts.

In fact a crazy ass white person was stalking him...with a gun...I'm surprised he hasn't been charged with impersonating a police officer...

I think Zimmerman deserves some jail time...whether it is for any degree of murder or manslaughter...I would prefer people like him get sent a message (message is call the police and let them handle "suspicious persons").
I don't agree with manzanita man's presentation and find his stats incredible.
But I also found it interesting that TM referred to Zimm as a "crazy-ass cracker."
Might this show animus on the part of TM toward whites and hispanics, and support Zimm's contention that TM initiated the fight?

ML--the mere fact that you're not bothered by being called a cracker and that Zimm may have in fact been a crazy-ass white person (or hispanic) is irrelevant to the significance of this testimony.
What would you think of the mental state of a white person who referred to a black guy as a "crazy-ass [N-Word]," even if the black guy was acting somewhat crazy? Let's say a fight later broke out between the speaker and the crazy-ass black person: might the use of the racial epithet suggest what transpired?

This is especially interesting if you remember that it was widely reported that Zimm had said "f*#king coons" to the dispatcher; that report was either a lie or at least a recklessly false. (Attentive readers of this thread may recall, before that report was exposed as false, that I had cast substantial doubt on its veracity by noting that "coons" is an uncommon pejorative among Zimm's demographic; some of the smartypants on this thread started arguing with me and said they knew people who say "coons" all the time--sometimes you can't win.)

Should be an interesting day tomorrow too: prosecution's star witness (who has already admitted to lying under oath in this case) is still being cross examined. But the "fix may be in"--there's no getting around the fact that Zimm set the wheels in motion, and as Kos noted, that may be enough to get a conviction, reasonable doubt, the law, and the facts notwithstanding.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 27, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
Another interesting day--Rachel Jeantel was still being a goofball, but couldn't really top yesterday's performance.
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict not guilty (or conviction of less serious charges--haven't even looked into what those options may be).

Certainly could be wrong and I agree with a lot of Kos's assessment from yesterday--I'm not sure juries really get "beyond a reasonable doubt" or care too much about it if they do.

But the summaries of the testimony that I've seen don't even come close to establishing BRD--just a bunch of very ambiguous testimony, generally by witnesses who are clearly wrong about at least a portion of their testimony or have been exposed as engaging in silly speculation (e.g., one witness thought Zimmerman was on top because he was "bigger," but she based that on pictures of TM that she had seen when he was a little kid instead of the over 6 foot, 17 year-old guy that he actually was). Nothing that shows who initiated the physical contact, who was screaming for help, or really anything other than Zimm was a creepy-assed cracker (of that, he is guilty.

If the judge had any balls/ovaries, there should be a judgment of acquittal (don't even put the case in the hands of a the jury to avoid an erroneous verdict based on passion/prejudice), but that ain't gonna happen in a highly publicized trial like this.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 27, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
Chim--that is most certainly NOT the formal law, but it may well be what the jury decides, no matter how weak the evidence.
As a hypothetical, let's say TM would have had a gun, what would have happened? We'll never know, but most likely situation is that instead of TM attacking Zimm and getting shot, he would have simply held him at gunpoint until the police arrived.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 27, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
As a hypothetical, let's say TM would have had a gun, what would have happened? We'll never know, but most likely situation is that instead of TM attacking Zimm and getting shot, he would have simply held him at gunpoint until the police arrived.

I think that the odds of either having the prior training or self control to refrain from shooting are highly unlikely. The fundamental problem is that under Florida law BOTH felt threatened so BOTH are entitled to shoot, which is absurd. The other reality is that only the one left standing gets to tell his side. Let's see, perjury or life in prison; "your honor, he told me he'd smash my face in, so I shot him".

Only one person will ever know what really happened, but the law that allows this to happen must be addressed. I fully support anyone's right to self-defense, but allowing lethal force in defense against a perceived non-lethal threat is a recipe for anarchy.

TE
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 27, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
I was really skeptical of manzanita's stuff about interracial rape, and it of course has zilch to do with TM case.
But out of curiosity, I googled it.
It's pretty interesting--from what I can see in some quick reading, he's essentially right: in modern times, there are close to zero incidents of white men raping black women, and lots of cases of black men raping white women.
I don't have any agenda in pointing this out, just thought it was interesting.
I had thought about the case of the French finance guy (DSK) allegedly raping the black hotel maid, but I guess that wasn't substantiated.


TE--you're right, and other commentators have noted that expansive self-defense laws may commonly lead to situations where each person in a conflict is legally authorized to kill the other!
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 27, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
it cant be second degree . . .

its either first degree or boyslaughter
That's too bad for Florida, cuz 2nd Degree is what he was charged with!
I guess it's boysaugher or nothing then!

You actually have to be pretty weird to think that Zimm set out to kill TM, even if you think he's guilty of something, even a very serious crime. Remember that Zimm called the police in the first place and asked them to send an officer to the scene, before he encountered TM in the "final conflict." Zimm also told witnesses to get the police after the shooting.
Did Zimm racially profile a teenager who in fact wasn't doing anything wrong and (sort of) follow him, which led the fight? Looks that way to me, but the question is what sort of a crime is that.

Edit:
Question: Are rSin and MM the same person? If so, he should really take a look at how he's spending his time.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 27, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
My impression of Mr Zimmerman is that of an insecure man with irreconcilable fears that he attempted to purge confronting off-the-wall teens wondering (or prowling) in the night.

Aggravated manslaughter...the defendant's reckless disregard of the consequences causing the death of another FITS... regardless if Trayvon Martin lunged at and scuffled with him or not...

Malice of forethought? I harbor strong suspicions of that...but making a legal case for it would be quite formidable.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 27, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
So we have Manzanita Man and rSin if could catch bluey could we delete all three at once?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:23am PT
Holy sh#t this thread.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:34am PT
Anyone who has read the details of this trail so far and thinks there is one chance in a millon this POS is going to get off on a murder charge is deluded beyond all understanding.

Would you be willing to back up your words with some wagering, or were they meant as a rant?
I'd put up virtually any amount up for the right odds--let me know what you have in mind.
(Outright acquittal is a long shot of course--odds need to reflect that. I won't hold you to million to 1, but it's gotta be good.)
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:59am PT
rSin said
oh btw highdesert
your earning graph didnt address the demographic numbers



for starters the issue of what numbers of "lowest" category earners were voting one way or the other

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. That's exactly what the graph showed. Here's another.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/09/26/161841771/how-income-divides-democrats-republicans-and-independents

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 28, 2013 - 10:40am PT
I learned during the last election that trying to track down delusional republicans to pay up was more trouble than it is worth ...
I'm not interested in your money or a debate ..
Your commentary is petty and flawed ..

I am 99.9 percent sure of it ... And I'm almost never wrong .
So you can have that as a prize ...
We can pay the money to a trusted third party beforehand, or use an online escrow service. If you're 99.9% sure, any odds better than about 1000:1 favor you.

I'll give you an order-of-magnitude deal and accept 100:1. If you still don't like those odds, just throw something out and I'll consider it.

I'll agree to wager any amount at 100:1 odds (say $20 minimum on my part, otherwise it's not worth the time) provided we each put the funds in escrow.

Or are you just a full-of-it windbag? (I like some of your nutty rants and
have no problem with you, but I'm calling out your BS on this one.)

(I still think Zimm will most likely be convicted of something, and quite likely M2. But it's not as "black and white" as Riley seems to think. Best coverage I've seen is at http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/28/questions-still-loom-over-george-zimmerman-trial?hpt=hp_inthenews )

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Riley, to make the bet, we need to have odds. It doesn't make sense to make an even money bet. I too think he'll be convicted of something, I just think there's a very real chance (I'll make up a number and say 20%, maybe even higher) he'll be acquitted. He has some reasonable witnesses--e.g., the most recent guy who testified said that he saw the guy wearing Zimm's color shirt on the bottom, apparently getting pounded MMA style!

If you don't have time or interest in working out the details of the bet, we can drop it. (I sort of like silly bets so it's not unpleasant for me, but you have to be into it.)
Cheers back at ya, have a good one.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
Do you realize how ignorant you look? how ridiculously pathetic you look to us?
lol


really? coming from this guy? lol



Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
It didn't help to build the prosecution around that big fat racist illiterate girlfriend of Martin's. She may end up being Zimmerman's Mark Furman.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
Riley--I just copied what you said into my post so there was context for what I wrote--no other reason.
I will not take the bet at even odds--I think it's more likely than not that he'll get convicted of something. I haven't yet heard how it may play out with options the jury will have to convict of M2, lesser offense (probably manslaughter), or something else, or nothing.

But here is what you seem to be missing:
You seem to think it's almost inconceivable that he'll be acquitted--you wrote million to one and 99.9% (1000 to 1) in your above posts. If you really believe that, you should absolutely take the bet at 100-1 or anything much more favorable than 1000-1. From an economics point of view, a 100-1 bet would be incredibly favorable to you, if you have any confidence in your prediction.

If you're not interested in wagering, that's fine.
But I have to say, it seems more likely to me that you really don't have any confidence in your 99.9%, and you realize it's a much closer call than that . . .

Edit--was the video the one with the black home invader beating the crap out of the white woman (resident)?
Yeah that was pretty crazy, especially the way ge followed her around dishing out repeated punches and kicks; it's not as if he just got surprised and lashed out.
I'm sure everyone hopes he's caught and given the max, which undoubtedly isn't as much as he deserves. Anyone who commits a crime like that should never walk the streets.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jun 28, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
I'd shoot Dr. F if he came into my yard because his mouth is a ignorant blowhard weapon.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 28, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
Innocent?

He's certainly not innocent. But that doesn't mean he's also not guilty.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 28, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
Good point Chaz-that's the way I see it too.
Anyway, back to the actual trial:
Another very good for the defense, as I see it.
Instead of long commentary, I'll just quote from Orlando Sentinel's summary, see below.
I'm almost getting comfortable with an even money bet on an acquittal, or at least no felony conviction. Not that I necessarily think that's a good thing.
Dr. F--can't tell when you're trolling, but if you're serious: yes, the defense is self defense. In every jurisdiction, you're allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself against a threat of serious bodily harm.

After two days' testimony by the state's star witness ended Thursday, prosecutors on Friday called the man expected to be the defense's star: John Good, a Zimmerman neighbor who told Sanford police that on the night of the shooting he'd seen a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style."

On the witness stand, Good said he was watching television in the living room of his Retreat at Twin Lakes townhome when he heard noises outside. He opened his glass sliding door and stepped out onto his porch.

It looked like a "tussle," Good said, adding "I yelled out, 'What's going on?' and 'Stop it,' I believe."

Good said two people were wrestling, in a straddling position — which defense attorney Mark O'Mara acted out on his knees in court, and Good described with MMA terminology: The "ground and pound."

The one on top was wearing dark clothes, he said, and the one on the bottom had lighter skin and was wearing white or red.

Pressed further by O'Mara, Good said he could identify them: "The person who you now know to be Trayvon Martin was on top, correct?" O'Mara asked.

"Correct," Good replied.

"And he was the one who was raining blows down on the person on the bottom, George Zimmerman, right?" O'Mara followed.

Good's response: "That's what it looked like."
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 28, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
What if Trayvon happened to get Zimmerman's gun while Zimmerman was attacking him, and shot Zimmerman, then who's fault would it be?

I don't think we have enough facts in your hypothetical to answer the question.
If you disarm an attacker, you can use the weapon if necessary for self defense from that point on, but it doesn't give you the right to in effect execute the attacker.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jun 29, 2013 - 01:19am PT
National-type trials are a show for the masses--any verdict will elicit emotional responses from both sides, as it should...


...so long as wisdom is gained in the process
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:04am PT
You can never tell what the hell a jury is seeing - especially with the kind of dummies they would have to dredge up to fill this jury.
At least there's something we can all agree on!

Did you see the testimony that Zimmerman's clothes were wetter on the back than on the front and had grass strains on the back (and not the front)?
Seems like that is objective proof of what was happening--Trayvon was on the top, beating the crap outta Zimm. Did Zimm deserve it? In some sense maybe yes, but legally, Zimm had the right to defend himself at that point.

What we each think of Rachel Jeantel's testimony is a good Rorschach test (I stole that metaphor from other ST posters on a different thread).
Obese, illiterate, uneducated, lying-under-oath (that's admitted), racist, moron?
Earthy, blue collar, trustworthy friend?
Both? (Hard to say neither.) Good stuff either way, she's one reason why this is a fascinating trial.

Edit:
It didnt seem bad - the creepy ass, skeletor, defence attorney badgered the sh#t out of her..
pathetic...
not a likable guy at all.
Dont't you mean creepy cracker ass? :)
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:28am PT
Rsin (I don't agree with all of your posts on this or other threads) but you bring up a valid point...

How did the cops not question Zimmerman, how is there no shining a light in his eyes for pupil dilation or drug use???

How was his father allowed to participate as if he was part of the investigation??

and Rsin is right it is sad that someone who didn't believe in himself enough to follow his dreams (zimmerman) is alive, while a young man who had a bright future is dead (Trayvon)...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 29, 2013 - 10:50am PT
When they do a toxicology on the dead black kid and not the guy who shot him... Lets take a saw and just cut out Florida all together like an ice flow.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jun 29, 2013 - 11:00am PT
A few years back (1984?) we had a guy pull a gun on one of us at Stoney Point. He picked the wrong person. Jim the man that had the gun pulled on him took it away smacked the guy in the face with it then drug him to the phone booth over at the horse ranch & called the police.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
In every jurisdiction, you're allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself against a threat of serious bodily harm

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!

Most jurisdictions allow the use of deadly force ONLY AS A LAST RESORT, the mere threat of harm is not enough. If there are other reasonable options available, use of deadly force is a crime.

The whole point of "stand your ground" is to make your claim true, but Florida goes a step more by permitting deadly force to defend against the mere perceived threat of harm, even non-serious harm.

It's ideas like yours that get people killed, innocent and guilty.

TE


blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 29, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
TE, let's make this concrete by looking at the law in a specific jurisdiction. Since this is ST, let's use California, a nice big blue state where many of the ST posters live. You can't accuse me of cherry picking an evil red state having an unfairly broad right to self defense.

As with most legal issues, complications can certainly arise, and my short statement above could be overly simplistic in some cases.
I meant my statement the context of the TM case: in every jurisdiction, where some guy has you pinned on your back and is in the process of repeatedly punching you and slamming your heard into the ground, it is justifiable self-defense for you to shoot the guy.
Agree?

Anyway, everyone can read the CA statute and draw his or her own conclusions. There are other relevant laws too-Section 198 basically says the person relying on self defense must be acting on the basis of a reasonable fear, i.e., it isn't self defense if you have an insane delusion that someone is trying to kill you. FL SYG essentially has the same requirement.




California Penal Code Section 197
Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Oh and one more thing.
I actually agree with TE's post for the most part--for example, the use of deadly force must be reasonable, which implies that you can't use deadly force if there are alternatives. (There didn't appear to be alternatives in the TM case, but my statement was overly broad.)

But it looks like TE misunderstands FL's "stand your ground law."
It clearly does not apply "against the mere perceived threat of harm, even non-serious harm."

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
I'm mystified at the version of Trayvon (140 lbs) getting on top in a ground scuffle, giving Mr Zimmerman (200 lbs.) a serious brawling...that is, Trayvon being that strong and quick in a close wrestling struggle yet be unmindful of`Zimmerman striving to fetch a gun and focus the barrel on him...

...and no trace of blood was found where George Zimmerman claimed Trayvon had thrashed his head against the sidewalk and no marks on his face in videos taken after the incident.


The witness, Selene Bahadoor, said she thought she heard running and yelling, looked out her sliding glass door and saw two figures standing with arms flailing...turning away momentarily, she heard a shot and looked out, seing a body face down in the grass..


George Zimmerman was carrying a gun, against dictates of neighborhood watch...

Trayvon Martin, the supposed prowler/burglar, was carrying a sack of candy...
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Sadly, Locker, it's derogatory term used in reference to people of Asian descent...saidto have been coined during the Korean war by frontline troops who had run over enemy troops in jeeps.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Read in the paper two witnesses claim that Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon and one witness who was zimmermans friend said Trayvon was on top...but it was raining so I don't know what to think about witness testimony...

Zimmerman also was taking a mixed martial arts class learning how to fight both standing up and on the ground...given his weight advantage it is difficult for me to believe he was losing the fight...

I think it is just as plausible he took an opportunity to kill someone on purpose since he had access to legal discussions around the house...just speculating...
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
I guess we generally agree, and I do stand corrected on my misunderstanding, but I'm even more worried about those laws state it is acceptable to use deadly force to prevent a felony, possibly one not even involving bodily harm at all.

The wording of that paragraph is just pure contradiction anyhow, if retreat is a possibility (although not required), then use of force cannot be necessary.

SYG will continue to perform its intended function; to sell more guns, because it certainly does nothing to make anyone safer.

TE



blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
Jennie, with all due respect, it sounds like you're only vaguely familiar with the case and have some significant misunderstandings.

Trayvon wasn't 140 pounds. According to the autopsy, Travon was 5'11 and weighed 158 lbs. If you hang out with climbers, you'd know that high-level climbers of that height weigh substantially less than that. The pictures I've seen of Trayvon show an athletic young man.
Let's just say that an athletic 17-year old of that size is not at all a small person. On the contrary, that's the size of a good fighting machine.

Zimmerman, on the other hand, is a 5'7'' tub of goo (about 200 pounds then). Not 200 lbs of rock hard muscle. He's just a pudgy little guy. If you believe in the Napoleon Complex, he'd be a good exhibit.

It's not surprising that Zimmerman was getting his ass beat.

Let me add a personal detail--I'm a 5'7'' middle-aged white guy. The idea that I'd go up to a much taller, athletic-looking black teenager (or white teenager for that matter) to engage him in a fistfight is just preposterous. (I do have some muscle from years of climbing and lifting, but still.)

Also, it's not in dispute that Zimm had bleeding lacerations to the back of his head. They weren't huge, but they're entirely consistent with having his head slammed into the ground. It's also not in dispute that Zimm and TM were on the ground, with one on top of the other (although it's very much in dispute as to who was on top--of course it's possible that either were on top at different times.)

Hope this clears up a few things, please let me know if you have other Qs--I've followed the case pretty closely so may be able to answer. Headed out to do some running and climbing now (if it doesn't rain) but I'll check back later.

Edits:
TE--I do think we generally agree on Flordia SYG -- I think it's poorly worded and irresponsible, and the "regular" law of self-defense (which, as I understand it, authorizes use of deadly force only when there is no reasonable alternative, seems fine).

From ML
Zimmerman also was taking a mixed martial arts class learning how to fight both standing up and on the ground...given his weight advantage it is difficult for me to believe he was losing the fight...

I think it is just as plausible he took an opportunity to kill someone on purpose since he had access to legal discussions around the house...just speculating...
Perhaps you too don't know the actual sizes of TM and Zimm. If you really think an athletic 5'11 158 pound guy is at a disadvantage against a 5'7'' butterball, I'm guessing you haven't spent much time with athletes?

Here's my pet theory: Zimm took some MMA classes and thought that made him a bad ass. Kind of like how some kids take karate classes and think they're tough, until they find out about 5 seconds into a fight that the karate stuff ain't working as advertised!
But that's all sort of irrelevant to the big picture--since you admit that various scenarios are plausible and we're just speculating as to what happened, I suppose that means you agree Zimm should be acquitted?
Remember the burden of proof!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 29, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
Trayvon wasn't 140 pounds. According to the autopsy, Travon was 5'11 and weighed 158 lbs. If you hang out with climbers, you'd know that high-level climbers of that height weigh substantially less than that. The pictures I've seen of Trayvon show an athletic young man.
Let's just say that an athletic 17-year old of that size is not at all a small person. On the contrary, that's the size of a good fighting machine.

Zimmerman, on the other hand, is a 5'7'' tub of goo (about 200 pounds then). Not 200 lbs of rock hard muscle. He's just a pudgy little guy. If you believe in the Napoleon Complex, he'd be a good exhibit.


Thanks for the information, Blahblah.

My dad was a wrestling coach...my brothers were multi-sport athletes. That doesn't render me an authority on street fighting, to be sure. But I've rarely seen long, lanky wrestlers throw thicker grapplers of their own weight around with ease...

Calling Trayvon "athletic" may be appropriate in some context. Favoring him to prevail in a ground struggle with an individual 40 or 50 pounds heavier who took part in mixed martial arts workouts three times a week takes some imagination.

Whatever happened in the clash, it seems obvious Mr Zimmerman chose to carry a gun and elected to confront TM knowing the outcome could become deadly.


mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jun 29, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
Blah Blah I haven't spent much time around athlete's since I graduated from the University of Kansas where I was an athletic trainer for the 1993-94 Jayhawks (Dana Stubblefield, Gilbert Brown) also performed therapeutic modalities for (Rafe La frenz and Jacque Vaughn--basketball) in addition to all the rest of the non-revenue producing sports that we also treated both men and women---an athlete doesn't have to look like me (check my pics--I'm a mesomorph). They come in all shapes and sizes with all manner of diffent abilities...

Have you ever seen Tony Gwynn (who would guess he would be a Hall of Famer).

Weight is one area tough to overcome for someone smaller unless they are skilled enough to offset the advantage...watching line-men battle at KU I recognized a 290 Lb black dude who was obviously the better athlete repeatedly get his ASS KICKED by a 323 lb white dude (who was an ahole who picked fights with guys like me and my girlfriends--I'm 6'3" 205)...
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jun 29, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
^^^ maybe it would make a better man out of you if you did.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 29, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
(There didn't appear to be alternatives in the TM case, but my statement was overly broad.)

How about the "mind your own f*#king business" alternative? How would that have worked out here? Nobody dead, nobody on trial. Seems like a reasonable alternative.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 29, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
Weight is one area tough to overcome for someone smaller unless they are skilled enough to offset the advantage...watching line-men battle at KU I recognized a 290 Lb black dude who was obviously the better athlete repeatedly get his ASS KICKED by a 323 lb white dude (who was an ahole who picked fights with guys like me and my girlfriends--I'm 6'3" 205)...
ML (and Jennie) -- I think the flaw in your reasoning is that you're thinking about weight class sports like wrestling, mma, and boxing where in general a heavier guy will defeat a lighter guy. But in competitive sports, the participants are all trained athletes with relatively low body fat (except perhaps heavyweights, which isn't relevant here.)
Zimmerman is obviously not a serious athlete; he's an obese butterball (more so now). His relatively high weight is from carrying excess fat, not muscle. Have you seen pictures of the guy? It's also worth noting that he isn't 5'9'' as sometimes reported, he's 5'7''. As a 5'7'' guy myself, I can tell you that's pretty short--not quite a midget, but if you're in a group of guys, you'll often be the shortest. Height is very significant in fighting (not so much wresting, but in stand up, and every street fight starts out standing up). I'd go so far as to say that it isn't correct to call Zimmerman the "bigger" guy. He was heavier, but significantly shorter. And, again, his weight "advantage" came from fat, not muscle, as in the case of real athletes.

There may be some rare exceptions for very muscular and/or trained fighters, but in general, if you're 5'7'', you don't go around picking fights with bigger (substantially taller) guys!

If you'd pick a 5'7'' fat ass to beat up a lighter but athletic 5'11'' guy, well, we'll just have to chalk this one up to seeing it differently.
But please don't make the mistake of thinking that Zimmerman's outweighing Trayvon is similar to a heavier MMA fighter (or wrestler or boxer) versus a lighter MMA fighter, where both fighters are highly trained and have very low body fat percentages.


Gary--I don't disagree you and I won't be shedding a lot of tears if he's convicted, even though I think the "correct" verdict would be not guilty based on what I've seen so far. If Zimmerman testifies, we'll have a lot of new evidence and will need to see how it shakes out.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 29, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
Imma gonna incite you to violence then imma gonna "STAND MY GROUND"
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 30, 2013 - 03:12am PT
Hi - person that actually grappled before. Weight does matter. I'm a monster on the mat these days but get 50+lbs on me and I won't f*#k with you.


Carry on with the speculation.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jun 30, 2013 - 11:15am PT
manzanita man do you not get the concept of manifest destiny??

our country's land was stolen from the native peoples who lived here...

the greatest genocide in history was orchestrated and condoned by at least one pope in writing here is the gist of that written decree that declared that god had granted the europeans america "we will hunt, kill, rape, burn, your villages...destroy your crops...etc...this is our land so sayeth GOD" this was a document written to validate the theft of the land and the killing of the indigenous people's who lived here---look it up it is FACT...

the african slaves that labored here for 400 years helped to create an enormous wealth that put us far ahead of other countries by allowing us to utilize the enormous natural resources at our disposal...

the tired, hungry, poor immigrants that arrived here from all nations but predominately european and asian countries also provided a wealth of cheap labor building the best infrastructure the world has ever seen...they fought hard for our Bill of Rights, Labor Laws, and PUBLIC SCHOOLS

YOU didn't create ANY of that

I commend you for what you have done with your life...if your happy with your success then BE HAPPY but don't put down those who have contributed to the success of us all...

By the way zimmerman deserve's a little GROUND and POUND in PRISON in addition to being a "wife" for a few sexually frustrated men...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 1, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Today's testimony is about done; another tough day for the prosecution.
Below is an example.
When you're a prosecutor and the lead investigating cop testifies as below, it's time to start worrying.


5:32 p.m. ET: Serino says he spent most of the night of the shooting trying to identify Martin. He also says there were no witnesses who could say how it all started except for Zimmerman.

5:28 p.m. ET: The jury is being seated.

5:25 p.m. ET: The court reporter is reading Serino's testimony back in court.

5:22 p.m. ET: The judge has dismissed the jurors to take up a matter outside of their presence.

5:19 p.m. ET: The attorneys are at a sidebar.

5:18 p.m. ET: Serino says Zimmerman's recreation video didn't have inconsistencies with the witness statements he was able to collect.

**Defense attorney O'Mara asks Serino if his evidence at the time supported self-defense.

"I had information that would have supported that, yes sir," said Serino.**

5:14 p.m. ET: **Defense attorney O'Mara asks Serino for any inconsistencies between Zimmerman's recreation with police and his first interviews with investigators.

"I can't think of none off hand. None that come to mind right now," said Serino.**

Serino says he expects some inconsistencies in a person's stories.

"We're not robots as people," said Serino.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 1, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
And perhaps your soul can be charged with desertion.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 2, 2013 - 03:04am PT
We actually PAY police officers to investigate...maybe someone should let Detective Serino in on that little part of the job description...

It isn't my neck on the line but is that the way a cop is supposed to treat a gunshot scene resulting in a death??

If so procedures should be changed or Serino should be reassigned to a position more in line with his abilities...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:17am PT
Dude's up on a murder charge. What more do you want?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:22am PT
Took months of nationwide protest to get that far.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:48am PT
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 2, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
Yup .... Obviously sereno was a big part of the initial problem
No, it's not "obvious" that there was an initial problem.
The police investigated and decided there wasn't enough evidence to recommend charges, even though there were some troubling aspects with Zimmerman's overall behavior and fishy parts of his account. Unlike most of the people on this thread, the police understand that the state must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt--mere suspicions or possibilites aren't enough to (properly) move forward.

The prosecution is acting like a wounded animal after Serino's testimony, desperately trying to get much of it stricken (even though he was the prosecution's witness).
Most of the expert commentators now don't even think Zimmerman will take the stand--the state's case has been so weak, there's no reason for Zimmerman to subject himself to cross.

This case isn't over by a long shot and I'm still sticking with the "who knows what the jury will do" line, but those of you who somehow thought this was an open-and-shut case may be eating some crow. If it is open-and-shut, it's probably not in the direction you think.

FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Why would anyone stand their ground in Florida?

There ani't nothing worth climbing.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
Who lets another get on top of them and beat their ass and only THEN shoot them? (testimony of the neighbor has the black kid/red shirt on top whaling away). Not the police, they are much better trained than that. This dog, for example, didn't have a chance...
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Complete with a Harold and Kummar talkover. Spoiler alert, don't watch it if a dog getting shot to death bothers you.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
The guy that got his dog killed was an idiot. They come in all colors and sizes.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 3, 2013 - 12:01am PT
Most of the expert commentators now don't even think Zimmerman will take the stand--the defense's case has been so weak, there's no way that Zimmerman could subject himself to cross, he would crack so hard, it would be a pathetic melt down for everyone to witness

fixed it for ya

Sort of -- if Zimm takes the stand, he may as well just plead guilty and save himself the embarrassment. Fortunately for him, it doesn't look like there's any reason for him to.

Isn't the United States Constitution a wonderful thing, with its multifaceted protections for those accused of crimes?
And good thing we've had some nice liberal Supreme Court interpretations of those rights, so that if the prosecution even hints that the jury should pay any attention to the fact that Zimm hasn't testifed, the trial's over!
Only in America!

But stay tuned--trial's still going on, anything can still happen.

Dr. F's pathetic spin aside, here's a good summary of what's happened so far from those far right whackos at the NY times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/us/prosecutors-in-zimmerman-trial-ask-jury-to-disregard-comments.html?_r=0
Here's an example of the overall tone:
Officer Serino’s testimony, in the second week of the trial in Seminole County Court, was the latest setback for prosecutors, whose witnesses have repeatedly helped bolster the defense’s case.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 3, 2013 - 12:29am PT
rSin, try reading my posts and the links therein and maybe you'll learn something.
Regardless of what you think manslaughter is, the legal experts cited noted in today's NY Times article (see my last post) disagree:
The Sanford police did not charge Mr. Zimmerman in the killing, citing insufficient evidence and Florida’s expansive “stand your ground” law, but that decision provoked national protests. Six weeks later, after Ms. Corey was assigned to the case, Mr. Zimmerman was charged with second-degree murder.

But many legal experts said this week that the state had overreached and that it should have filed manslaughter charges. The jury can still find Mr. Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter, but it would fall to the prosecutors to argue for that result without appearing to concede a weakness in their case.

What exactly constitutes "manslaughter" depends on state law, and I have no particular familiarity with FL state law. But generally speaking, manslaughter is a common charge when two people get into a fight (not one person just attacks another) and one guy dies. May be pretty apt.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 3, 2013 - 01:06am PT
rSin, maybe you're like the guy who posted earlier and says he wrestles and gets beat up by short fat guys, I don't know, I've never had that experience and it seems odd. When I was a kid, the short fat kids didn't inspire much fear in the other kids, maybe things have changed.

Anyway, Trayvon's height and weight are very similar to famous climber Alex Honnold's, except I'd guess Honnold is lighter.
I doubt Honnold goes around getting into fights, but I imagine he'd kick some ass if he wanted to. From what we can tell, Martin wanted to, and he did up until the end.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 3, 2013 - 02:38am PT
it's hard to be happy with the police investigation and evidence because it doesn't appear that an INVESTIGATION/INTERROGATION occured...

an investigation involves gathering evidence and QUESTIONING those involved especially in circumstances that result in DEATH...a traffic stop that results in death recieves much greater scrutiny than this death by GUNSHOT did???

The police had a recording of a man being instructed by 911 Dispatchers to AVOID confronting the individual and he ignored it...why was he not read his rights, arrested, interrogated...

In addition to gathering evidence and interviewing witnesses a detective's job description should include being able to put 2 + 2 together and get 4...

Sadly our justice system may fail us in this case because the quality of police work done doesn't meet a high standard...WHY it didn't in this case is another question...Was it because it is a JUDGES kid, racism, or plain incompetence, or something else???

Maybe Zimmerman is innocent...but more likely IF he gets off it is due to poor police work...

We have the best justice system in the world and being an officer of the law is a hard job...but we deserve for circumstances like this to be handled with someone doing a job they can be proud of sadly I don't think Sereno would be proud of his work if asked...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 3, 2013 - 10:38am PT
it's hard to be happy with the police investigation and evidence because it doesn't appear that an INVESTIGATION/INTERROGATION occured...

Please stop posting until you've taken some time to get at least some basic familiarity with the case or the relevant law.
Here's a short primer:
There was an investigation and interrogation, including detailed cooperation by Zimm, who cooperated after being informed of his Miranda right to remain silent, and before he sought legal counsel.
Further, in the US, police have absolutely no right to interrogate criminal suspects; any cooperation by suspects must be entirely voluntary. Experienced criminals usually keep their mouths shut, and that is what criminal defense lawyers universally recommend.

The investigators, who testified in detail at trial, noted that Zimm's account was always consistent in the main, and that the minor inconsistencies weren't out of the ordinary or suspicious.
Certain of Zimm's actions were highly consistent with his account. For example, the investigator tried a subterfuge by telling Zimm that the investigator believed there was a recording of the shooting, in order to gauge Zimm's reaction. Zimm's reaction was that on an innocent man: he immediately exclaimed "Thank God!"

Here's the bottom line: no one really knows what happened, and no one ever really will know what happened. That's not because there was no investigation, it's because no one saw what happened, and the physical evidence generally corroborates Zimm's story. But it's of course possible that Zimm was lying, and he almost certainly colored his story to put his actions in the best light.

In our system of criminal law, where it's often said that "Better a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent be imprisoned," Zimm should be acquitted. That doesn't mean he isn't in fact guilty, but just that the State can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. What the jury will in fact do is anyone's guess, and I won't gloat if he's acquitted or apologize for anything I've written if he's convicted.

So please just shut up with your uninformed speculation and general nonsense.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 3, 2013 - 10:45am PT
Bullshit Blahblahblah, you can speculate but no one else can?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:15am PT
Bullshit Blahblahblah, you can speculate but no one else can?
No, you people are having a hard time getting it. I'll try again, but then I have to get ready for 4th of July holiday, so probably wont be able to check back until next week.
If all we're left with is speculation, that means Zimm should be found not guilty! My speculation isn't necessarily any better than yours, it's just that none of us can prove what the hell happened beyond a reasonable doubt--and so far, neither can the State of Florida.

rSin, I agree there are some troubling aspects of Zimm's various statements, but not enough to remove all reasonable doubt because the issue isn't whether Zimm exaggerated (he probably did) but whether he had the right to defend himself against Martin's attack (which he did, even if the attack wasn't quite as dramatic as Zimm made it sound).

Edit:
Also doesn't help that this beady eyed f*#k now looks like he weighs 300 pounds
Riley--I've thought the same thing, Zimm is in fact a retard! He should have lost weight, not been blowing up like a freaking sumo wrestler!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:22am PT
i can't wait for the riots to start
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 3, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
maybe zimmerman is trying to gain weight to appear less attractive while in prison...somebody should send him a link to "Deliverance"...

haven't had a chance to check out the cop's statement linked above that pertains to zimmerman having malice but hope to soon...

Happy 4th of July everybody!!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 3, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
You're right, Riley. The jury does not have a "not guilty" option. Even if the jury votes for acquittal, the court won't accept it. It's either murder-2 or mans laughter.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 3, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
MM, you can't read Chaz's sarcasm, can ya?

Now who is dumber than dirt?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 3, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
I for one have never even heard that term before.

Carry on.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 3, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
cmon riley, talk to me. just because you are married to someone black, doesnt give you the right to be racist against whites. go fck your self

Easy there, uninformed guy.

Hate speak isn't appreciated here, and I'll let Riley suss the rest out for you.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 3, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
he is a fcking racist retard.

Hate speech is unacceptable.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 3, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
This thread is like hearing nba players discuss politics. From blahblah's first year law student analysis to mm's Greta van sustern impersonation, it is a really good example of why idiots should stfu, and post about stuff they actually understand. Carry on...
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 3, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
many of us know Riley personally and for a long time. He's neither a racist nor is he a dumbass. Actually, he's really brilliant and intelligent.

Basically it means you got sucked into something you might just want to disappear from. Doesn't reflect well.

Carry on....
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 3, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
no not at all. nor do i care if you do or not.

just noting you look like a fool. but i really don't need to note that because this forum is full of smart enough folks they don't need the obvious pointed out to them.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 4, 2013 - 12:39am PT
Racial hatred is nothing to laugh at, only to be despised and stopped in its tracks. Manazanita Man and his ilk sickens me.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Jul 4, 2013 - 12:50am PT
This is still running? goddamn the pusher man. George Zimmerman, the brother that we all never had.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 4, 2013 - 01:45am PT
In Florida, the crime of Manslaughter can be committed in one of three ways, either by:

Manslaughter by Act: Committing an act that was neither excusable, nor justified that resulted in the death of another person.

Manslaughter by Procurement: Persuading, inducing, or encouraging another person to commit an act that resulted in the death of another person.

Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence: Engaging in “Culpably Negligent” conduct that resulted in the death of another person.

If convicted of Manslaughter, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 9¼ years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:

Up to 15 years in prison.
Up to 15 years of probation.
Up to $10,000 in fines
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Jul 4, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Zimmerman wasn't in fear for his life. He was afraid his rep would be damaged (the one in his mind, the only one he has) by getting his ass kicked by one of the punk niggers he's so disdainful of.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
too

not to
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
thank you for using too correctly
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
oh, just messing around on a quiet Friday night!
abrams

Sport climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
You are right. A calm Fri night. And this political Zimmermann trial is over but for the inevitable not guilty verdict.





zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Jul 6, 2013 - 12:21am PT
It's not all over until OJ gets outa prison, my friends. I would not want to be a not-guilty Z-man.

-Karma Electra
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jul 6, 2013 - 02:00am PT
Sort of sad that you are proving the results of these poles. Can you admit that if Zimmerman was blacker than Trayvon this trial would not be on tv or any big deal?


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/4/americans-say-blacks-more-racist-whites-rasmussen-/

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/majority-americans-say-blacks-are-more-racist-whites-or-hispanics-poll-says
WBraun

climber
Jul 6, 2013 - 11:17am PT
This is where Zimmerman first made his mistake.

He did not obey dispatch's request to back off.

The proceeding events afterwards all fall back onto the original instruction.

If he had followed the original instructions he would be at home and not in this mess at all.

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Jul 6, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Can you admit that if Zimmerman was blacker than Trayvon this trial would not be on tv or any big deal?

Yes. Unless of course he killed OJ.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 6, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
Well said brother....
TREED

Trad climber
Gunks
Jul 6, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
Who left the pigpen open?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 6, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
While you're at it Riley, look up Thomas Sowell.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 6, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Riley, I agree with you, but calling evertone who disagrees with you an a-hole doesn't work.

Trust me, I've tried.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 6, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
Whatever, don't foret to breathe.

I mean this in the best way, breathe!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 7, 2013 - 01:14am PT
uh.... i think it's the other way around. though he does know your name....
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 7, 2013 - 03:43am PT
this is a classic case of a class/caste system of thinking...

Upper Middle Class Judge's son...thinks, and believes he is better than and entitled to rule over people who are beneath him in his own messed up hierarchy...

this has been socialized in this person for a long period of time because of who his father is...it appears they have much more power than they actually do...

Zimmerman makes a leap lots of people who have this upbringing don't...he takes ACTION against someone who is not in his sphere of influence believing he has a greater power/responsibility/sphere of influence than he really does...

He BELIEVES he is right and that he won't suffer consequences...he thinks when the cops arrive after he has successfully apprehended Trayvon he will be treated as if he is part of the crime fighting team...not as a vigilante...

WHY??? most likely it is because lessor incidents have turned out this way in his past experience...

This time he encountered someone willing to stand up and DEFEND themselves...Trayvon thought he was being FOLLOWED/STALKED by a CREEPY, CRAZY ASS CRACKER...I think that demonstrates some FEAR on TRAYVON'S part forcing him to take action to defend himself against a percieved threat...

unfortunately it resulted in his DEATH
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 7, 2013 - 04:21am PT
can't argue with you there Riley...Zimmerman is a POS, loser, coward...


he is also a KILLER

I have never liked guns I think Skynard say's it best with "saturday night special"---why don't we just throw them all to the bottom of the sea before someone shoots you or me...

seems like a good solution to me but I have made many poor decisions also but nobody has died from my choices...
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Jul 7, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
I would take it then, that after Z-man gets acquitted there will be very few ST'ers who'll be inviting him over to Thanksgiving dinner.

But, just in case, start the meal with wine, cheese and crazy-ass-crackers.

Not sayin' these are some of Z-man's aspiring cop buddies, not sayin' they aren't either.


[Click to View YouTube Video]


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 7, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-convicted-murder-manslaughter/story?id=19598422#.UdoLWG2wWdO
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 8, 2013 - 10:17am PT
So, TGT, Martin didn't have the right to defend himself, but Zimmerman does?
abrams

Sport climber
Jul 8, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Gary
Those with the familiar job of following suspicious types like you around inside stores to prevent shoplifting would shoot you dead also if you jumped them, rode them to the floor, straddled them, and with fist flying went MMA on their face while saying YOU GOING TO DIE TONIGHT.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 8, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Took Friday off to go climbing so didn't really follow that day's testimony.
Sounds like there was some comic relief with the medical examiner (who barely spoke understandable English) testifying that he had zero recollection of the autopsy and generally acting like a jackass.

Today's got interesting stuff going on so far.
The testimony about Trayvon's dad saying that it was not Trayvon screaming on the 911 call is going to be real, real tough for the prosecution to get around.
Seems to me that if the jury thinks that it could have been Zimmerman yelling to the world to help before the gunshot was fired, not guilty is only reasonable verdict, even as to manslaughter.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 8, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Gary writes:

"So, TGT, Martin didn't have the right to defend himself, but Zimmerman does?"


If Martin was on top of Zimmermann - and continuing to beat on him - then what Martin was doing went way beyond self defense.

You can't beat someone who's down. I don't know about Florida, but doing that in California is a felony. And as noted earlier, you absolutely have the right to use deadly force to stop a violent felony in progress.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Jul 8, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
It's interesting to view the timeline of the phone calls and/or tapes.

One question I have is why didn't Z-man tell T-man he was armed and to back off or he would shoot?


michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 8, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
If Martin was on top of Zimmermann - and continuing to beat on him - then what Martin was doing went way beyond self defense.



Zimmerman's contusions on the back of his head are from a single blow on the concrete. And Martin clearly didn't "self defend" himself enough, because he ended up dead.

Martin shouldn't of picked a fight. Should of just went home.

Zimmerman should have listened to the police. Charge him.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 8, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
One question I have is why didn't Z-man tell T-man he was armed and to back off or he would shoot?

I don't think all of Zimm's conduct can be completely explained (or at least explained in a way that does him any credit).
But as to your question, it seems there was a very short conversation between the two before it got physical--just may not have been enough time for Zimm to have done that.
It's sort of like this (I'm paraphrasing and going by memory, so don't bust my balls if I'm off on a detail, although I think this is basically accurate):

Trayvon: Why are you following me?
Zimm: What are you doing here?

Next thing you know, Trayvon sucker punches Zimm and knocks him down, does some MMA-style ground and pound, Zimm is yelling for help, no one comes to help, and the rest is history.

Do I know the above is what happened? Of course not, but it's plausible, consistent with the evidence presented, and I don't see how the state can disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Edit, breaking news:
Martin's toxicology report admissible
This one could be over folks!
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 8, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Anyway ...
This one is a toss up now ..
Not sure how the jury will see it now
Yeah I thought about bringing up the even money bet (no odds), but let's let that lie and we'll just see how it turns out.
A right wing radio pundit I was listening to observed that the best part of the prosecution's case was the opening statement, and it's been basically all downhill since then; the opposite for the defense (remember the knock knock joke?).
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jul 8, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Gang banger Trayvon bone head fool got quick justice. It is all over but the shouting.

Move on to next conundrum you racist liberal morons that we all feel sorry for due to your lack of brain power.

J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jul 8, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
shut up you fool, we know you all the same person = norton rsin apogee riley blahblah Dr F mountinglion kittens. Have you no heart for justice?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 8, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
^^^^^^ Christ, what an idiot...^^^^
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 8, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
J man posted
Gang banger Trayvon bone head fool got quick justice.

You sound like Fattrad J man. You also sound like a f*#kinglameass racist sackofsh#t. GFYS!


I am sorry to everyone else. I have not been nasty in months but this limp dicked maggot J man really pissed me off with that statement.
Gang banger? WTF? Because he was black, because he wore a hoodie, or because he liked skittles?
Quick Justice? WTF? This young boy deserved to die? Justice was served?

What an ASS!
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 8, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
Doens't sound like fattrad to me. I didn't really like fattrad's shtick (except I did sorta like his signature "The Evil One"), but he seemed mostly coherent--just repetitive and not very funny.

J Man is different type of oddball--one of a few ST posters (hard to tell how many as they obviously create multiple accounts) who has some real mental problems, kind of recognizes that, but seems powerless to stop posting a mix of gibberish and general trolling. I'm sure he knows it's pathetic.

It would be a better site if CMac dropped the ban hammer more often, but "he works in mysterious ways."
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 8, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
Got to add Jemarr to the list of worthless sacks of racist shits.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 8, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
To be honest, I wouldn't want either one - Zimmermann OR Martin - in my neighborhood.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 8, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
Release the Kracken.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 8, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
Edit, breaking news:
Martin's toxicology report admissible
This one could be over folks!

This must be a miscalculation by the defense, the prosecution must be busting a gut trying not to cheer. Nobody knows about whether TM was an aggressive person normally, but proving he was high is going to cast huge doubts that he was the aggressor.

TE
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 8, 2013 - 08:32pm PT

that's Kraken.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 8, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
If Martin was on top of Zimmermann - and continuing to beat on him - then what Martin was doing went way beyond self defense.

If I understand the Stand Your Ground Law, if you just think you're threatened you can shoot to kill. So, can't you beat to kill as well?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 8, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
And exactly what message would that be?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:00pm PT

we need to have open hunting on rioters night. shoot on sight. maybe then the stupid mfers will get the message.


dont riot dumbass. what did you think the message would be?


That black lives are imminently expendable.
Or possibly Vigilante Racists uber alles.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
If you were a white boy walking your fat ass home from 7-11 and a tall skinny black dude started f'ing with you, and you fought back and he shot your ass dead, guess that is ok too.

God bless Florida...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Whoa cut bigger eyeholes in your hood Cracker. FYI; Blacks are people and citizens too.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
So do you Crackers also make a practice of blaming the victims of rape, incest and pedophilia?
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.

Jul 8, 2013 - 08:19pm PT

hey philo, blacks kill people at a rate far more than any other race. get a clue

I laughed, you obviously do not know your world history.
Whitey always wins at death and destruction.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
manzanita man you racist pig I am petitioning CMac to ban your hate filled cracker ass.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
Hey Manzanita man F*#KYOU!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:01am PT
Hey racist pig I am not the one calling for shooting black people on sight. You are beyond pathetic go crawl back under your barrel Cracker.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:09am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:09am PT
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.

Jul 8, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
i dont listen to dumbasses.


No wonder you don't understand how vile you sound.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:10am PT


^^^ I love that place their biscuits are so white and fluffy.
Hey Philo and MM get a room, your not elevating the discussion or helping your causes.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:14am PT
Elevating the discussion with a bald faced racist calling for vigilante killings of Black people? Are you daft? I have no tolerance for evil hatred like that. Politeness be damned, ban this shitsack.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:30am PT
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.

Jul 8, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
philo, GFYS,

i will shoot any that get near me, in the head.

Who? Blacks or Floridians?

FYI you dont really want to post this stuff online unless you want a visit from the EFF BEEE EYEE.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:42am PT
Well I would like to have a "Rip off a Cracker's head and sh#t down there throats" night.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 9, 2013 - 02:37am PT
Manzanita Man I'm sending you good vibes and a big hug...

everybody NEEDS LOVE in this world and you didn't get any for that I am sorry and empathize with you...

Good for you to put that existence in the rear view and KICK ASS in your life!!!

Now you are part of the climbing FAMILY and I mean that...I didn't have the kind of childhood you had or any comparable hardships but I did meet the best friends of my life through a campground (Hidden Valley in Joshua Tree and we are a small family there...if you ever want to come to JT and have a bad ass time climbing with a huge party afterwards (5 star meals by the way...(we eat better than any yuppie paying $$$50 for a meal...complete with music and night time adventures...) you can't miss us we are the ones having TOO MUCH FUN or you could pm me when you can make it!!!
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 9, 2013 - 03:01am PT
rSin we need more love in this world...

if Manzanita Man had the upbringing and experience described in Riley's posting then he is "damaged goods"...or we could call it what it is (he is a victim of CHILD ABUSE)...

I will give a second chance to a victim of child abuse and error on the side of compassion...he needs to experience the love, friendship, belonging that a FAMILY provides...

I don't like his statements or viewpoint one bit...maybe that is because he wasn't taught like our parents taught us...

Manzanita Man heed our call become a lover not a hater...rise above it as you did your past experience...give of yourself for you are a worthy person...racist hatred of ANY race is WRONG don't align yourself with that type of thinking...

regardless if zimmerman is found guilty TRAYVON was found DEAD...it shouldn't have happened regardless of who is at fault a young life was lost...

your young life could have been lost but you overcame that horrible adversity...Trayvon doesn't have that chance...just think about it man...
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
this case continues to be very frustrating...

Dr F is correct if the jury isn't allowed to know about zimmerman's past brushes with the law but is allowed to know about Trayvon's how is a fair trial supposed to occur??

I guess this case illustrates the quality of the prosecuting attorney can make or break a case and whether justice is done...

if a quality police investigation and prosecution occur and a jury still doesn't convict we have to live with thier decision...

I don't think our system allows a new trial if zimmerman is acquitted...any lawyers out there who can explain it for us??
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Is the Prosecution going to bring up Zimmerman's history of Violence?
Arrested for resisting arrest, wife beating and a restraining order against him.
No??
why not?

Generally "character" evidence (such as having a character as a hothead or as a violent person) is not admissible to show that defendant acted according to that character in connection with the accused crime.
The theory is that a defendant (or other witness) should only be responsible for addressing the allegations related to the crime--his whole life isn't on trial. You can agree or disagree with that theory, but that's the general rule. There are lots of exceptions that allow prior bad acts to be admitted in particular cases, but I don't think the prosecution figured out a way to bring out evidence of Zimm's prior bad acts in this case.

Remember the prosecution has rested--the only way it will be able to bring in new evidence is on cross of the defense witnesses.
So a huge issue is whether Zimm will testify -- if he does, depending on his testimony, that may open the door to some of the evidence you'd like to see. Huge strategic implications are raised if the defense calls Zimm, and what questions they ask.
Most expert commentators I've seen predict that Zimm won't testify.

I want a new trial, one that makes sure he goes to jail.

It's possible that a mistrial will be declared before the jury renders a verdict; if that happens, Florida can retry him. One might think the prosecution would be scrambling like hell to get a mistrial at this stage--I'm sure they'd love a do-over and do things like better "prepare" Trayvon's morbidly obese, illiterate phone friend.
Once a jury verdict is reached, if it's not guilty, Zimm can never be retried by Florida for this (alleged) crime, no matter what, even if Zimm were to admit he was guilty. That's the "double jeopardy" thing. A civil suit can still be brought (remember the OJ case) regardless of the outcome of the criminal case; we'll see what happens with that.

Instead of getting mad about the fact that Zimm may be acquitted, perhaps you should give some thought as to why this seemingly local incident became a major national news story. If you need some hints, remember NBC has already apologized for the way it doctored the news to make it seem that Zimm was fixated on Trayvon's skin color.

Edit:
I don't think our system allows a new trial if zimmerman is acquitted...any lawyers out there who can explain it for us??
See above regarding "double jeopardy."
And despite being mocked on this thread for my "first year law student" analysis, I did in fact pass the second and third years of law school as well, passed the bar, and have practiced for many years. (Although I don't practice in criminal law and am not a FL lawyer of course. Still, double jeopardy is based on the United States Constitution.) I don't mean to suggest I'm an expert commentator on this trial--I'm not, and am just sharing my thoughts.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
I guess this case illustrates the quality of the prosecuting attorney can make or break a case and whether justice is done...

Not to me it doesn't.
The prosecution has done a pretty good job from what I've seen, and in some ways an excellent job (it's dropped the ball a few times, but that's normal in any complicated trial). I also have no doubt that Florida has spent far, far more resources on prosecuting this case than it would have in an "average" manslaughter case (and this always should have been a manslaughter case, at most, not murder). I don't believe for a second that the state would do things like tracking down Zimm's college instructor in a typical case in order to show that Zimm may have lied (or been simply wrong) on testifying on an extremely tangential point.

The prosecution's problem hasn't been with its lawyers, it's been with the evidence.

I would agree that this case may illustrate that a defendant who is able to afford a highly competent defense team is going to do a whole lot better than average criminal with a public defender. But it's hard to see what to do about that.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
Okay, I wasn't going to comment any more on this, and actually agree with most of blah...'s most recent analysis, until he couldn't resist a gratuitous slur at my profession. I'm a public defender and proud of it. Despite stereotypes, and undoubted bad examples in certain jurisdictions, I and most of my colleagues work damn hard for our clients and provide excellent representation for them, often better than that provided by some high profile, costly private attorneys. Sure in some cases well-funded private counsel make are able to access more resources than we often can, but sometimes these "resources"--such as "jury selection experts" and some other alleged "experts"---are much more "puff" than substance.I'm surely not spending all my time watching the Zimmerman trial---I have my own cases to work on (I'm on lunch time right now), but I haven't heard his lawyers do anything particularly extraordinary in this case, nothing that isn't pretty standard for most experienced practitioners.

The problem for the prosecution really is in the initial police investigation, and their initial assumptions as they conducted it. And, yes, I do think race and other stereotypes (youth in a hoodie) did play a role both in their attitude and Zimmerman's. While I do agree that this is more a manslaughter than a murder case, there surely is enough to justify the prosecution proceeding on that theory---I've tried (and won)a murder charge that was far more tenuous than this one.So, blah..., please use a little more thought before you write your "throwaway" comments.

Oh yeah, double jeopardy. While an acquittal would prevent a new charge/trial in Florida, Zimmerman could possibly be charged in Federal court for a civil rights violation. No double jeopardy because Florida and the US are "seperate sovereigns".An example was the case a few years ago where KKK members acquitted in state court for a murder were then prosecuted and convicted in Federal court for the same crime as a violation of Federal civil rights law. I don't expect that this would happen in this case but it could.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 9, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
AR, thanks for your comments. I didn't mean to slur public defenders--if what I wrote came across that way, I do apologize.
My comment really was intended to reflect the resources that Zimm's defense team has rather than their quality of lawyering. For example, today they've got some guy who did a video reconstruction of the incident, as well as a top-notch private forensic pathologist.
If PD's have access to that, I'd be surprised.

In Colorado at least, I've heard that a defendant with a PD generally has better representation than someone who is forced to hire a low-end private criminal defense lawyer (who may be some joker with no real experience in criminal law). But if you've got big bucks, I have to think that the ability to hire many, prestigious expert witnesses has got to help. If I'm wrong on that, I'll stand corrected!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
No but it is being used as an excuse for your vile hate filled spewing.

So cry me a river of crocodile tears you had a rough life and you don't want to work on Maggie's Farm no more. So now you are free to spew hate and death threats to any one different.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 9, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
You know my nephew is a noble Black man from a difficult childhood.
He is now a decorated career military man serving in this country's armed forces.
He is a leader of men who say they would follow him into the gates of hell because they trust him and believe in his abilities and intelligence. He has a multitude of medals from his battlefield actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. He has been shot and wounded and blown up by an IED all while defending the freedoms of pigs like you Manzanita man. And you would thank him and repay his service with a bullet to the head no questions asked simply because he isn't white.
Your apology is not accepted.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Damn Riley, you've written some very thoughtful posts. I salute you.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
hey there say, all.... wow, i have been behind in checking out all the various 'post aspects' here...

and WHEWW... this one had grown so much, i wondered why... wow...
i can see it is due to taco-give-and-take, as to lot's of share, not just the news on this...

well, say, from the last few posts, at least, i can say this:

it is good to see some positive talk-and-share now, meaning THESE LAST few by riley and manzanita man... as to why some of you
all have various feelings about various groups of folks in the world, etc...


my ex-father in law, when i first met him, had some mighty awful derogatorily things to say about all kinds of folks, everywhere, :O
and i never knew him, or his life, before that--though his father was a strongly bad alcoholic, and so was he...

but--i noticed over they years, that as we gave examples of feeling good in spite of bad things--even though it was hard, and there were many things not to like, in the world :(--his opinions had better quality as to judgements, and understanding that there are reasons why folks do things, good or bad, and he began to not let that taint him...

it was good to see... :)

nice to see for example, a bit a growth:
this last share between manzanita man, and riley,
(hope i did not leave anyone else out?)
it is nice to see a look-share into why some feelings are so strong in ways that some may not understand...


my ex father in law, though very very different as to how he felt, about many things in life, became a very beloved member of our family and of my kids... i think he grew in good ways, due to a bit more goodness in his life...


may we all grow better, with the goodness and 'fertizer' (though THAT may not seem good at times) from those about us...


this whole situation of what zimmerman trigger, is all very sad :(
all from one night gone wrong for so many...


may more 'changes' step in the lives of many folks out in the world, to NIP OFF these bad situations before they grow...


oh ps:
it is a humbling hard thing to do at times:
saying 'i'm sorry' ... very good to hear that, manzanita man, thank you,
as from a taco-reader here, even though i was late to read this tread...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
This seems like good commentary:
Those defense lawyers are some skilled bastards.

They taken the bigger, racist older guy with martial arts training and the loaded gun
and made him the "Please, please, can't somebody help me!" VICTIM in this case.

Then they took the smaller kid who was armed only with f-ing Skittles and made him
the violent, druggie AGGRESSOR with all that pent-up rage for the White Devil.

...will the all-white jury agree?

As for manzanita man, well, I've met people with number tattoos on their arms, courtesy of the Final Solution, so I don't really care where you came from, you can take your racist attitude and stick it where the sun don't shine.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
Zimmerman has had past encounters with harmless citizens that he felt were "in the wrong"--some involved the police, with Z being reprimanded for his "civic" actions...

It won't ever be heard by a jury :-(((((


Here's one : http://thecomingcrisis.blogspot.com/2012/03/george-zimmerman-arrest-records-sealed.html
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:16am PT
the bleached piece sh#t who posted his begging bowl on fox 'entertainment'...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2013 - 09:52am PT
Thanks, manzanita man. Back at ya.

There are lots of folks that have had it way harder than you that didn't become hate filled racist pricks. Some people overcome their beginnings, some succumb to their starts.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 10, 2013 - 09:57am PT
Case in point Gary right here. Harder childhood and I'm a prick, but not a racist.







Well, not much of one anyway.... according to my wife.






Who's not a honkey.








But I do seem to be the only one here who is willing to let the jury decide this case based on the facts that THEY are presented and not the facts that the media is "saying" occurred. It was a sad tragedy that could have been avoided.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Nelson ruled Wednesday that jurors will not see Trayvon Martin's text messages, which purportedly show he had been in fights and was trying to purchase a gun

Pretty big evidentiary ruling here; if the jury saw the texts from Trayvon's phone discussing fights and his friend telling him he should stop fighting so much, think that could make it close to a slam dunk for the defense.
Ruling didn't seem right to me (but I've not brushed up on this and certainly could be mistaken); wonder if this could be a significant enough issue for a successful appeal if Zimm's convicted.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 10, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
which purportedly show


OMG a Black kid in a hoodie armed with Skittles what other explanation could there be other than purported ones for why he killed himself?.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 10, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
From what ive read of their law and police statements if true
i don't see why he was charged to begin with.

That's part of what makes this an interesting case. Remember that the local police investigated and the local prosecutor decided not to charge Zimm with anything, although apparently is was a close call.
Trayvon's family got an attorney (Mr. Crump) who agitated for prosecution, it got picked up by the national media, which in at least one well publicized incident clearly manipulated the reporting to inflame racial tensions (remember also there was this business about "coons," which was debunked, as I predicted on this thread at the time), Obama weighed in with his "if I had a son . . ." (but Obama didn't say much after it came out that Trayvon was high on pot, suspended from school for burglary, was a tatted fighter, etc.), and so on.

May turn out that the local police and prosecutors were doing the right thing, but got overruled by more politically minded higher-ups.

Edit:
Wow--anyone following the case should read the exclusive CNN interview with the former police chief:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/justice/sanford-bill-lee-exclusive/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Jul 10, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Mr. Paladin is driving down the highway in Florida and his ride breaks down. He gets out to walk back to a call-box. It's a dark a rainy night so he takes his weapon and a couple of clips with him. As he strides along he becomes reasonably afraid that one of the cars traveling down the road is going to hit and kill him. He lights the car up with one shot. The car doesn't hit and/or kill him. Still being reasonably afraid for his life he empties two clips worth of bullets and survives the night.

No charges are filed because the investigating officers determined what his state of mind was and that it was reasonable.

Several of the dead automobile operators test positive for THC upon autopsy. Why was Paladin not afraid of motorcycles?

Florida - don't got there.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 10, 2013 - 07:06pm PT




IF THE HEAD SPLIT, YOU MUST ACQUIT.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 10, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
His head wasn't split. He was all but unscathed.



Do you suppose if this pudgy pasty racist IS convicted that the red neck crackers of Florida will riot?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 10, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Do you suppose if this pudgy pasty racist IS convicted that the red neck crackers of Florida will riot?
Nope, and the State of Florida doesn't either--it's issuing public service announcements that are directed to a specific ethnic group. It ain't rednecks!

What does that tell you?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
Prosecution just pulled a dirty switch allowing lesser charge of manslaughter.

Grounds for appeal if you ask me.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
he Zimmerman case is about many things, but it isn't about George Zimmerman, an Hispanic Obama supporter who campaigned against police brutality only to find himself plucked up by the hand of Big Brother to play the villainous white racist in the latest episode of liberal political reality television.

Zimmerman is the latest Bernie Goetz; another wholly unlikely cult figure who currently campaigns for vegetarian lunches in public schools and squirrel rescue. It's not that the two men had anything particularly in common. Unlike Goetz, it is very unlikely that Zimmerman jumped the gun, so to speak, but they both fill a similar niche. They represent the embattled lower half of the middle class.

To understand the Zimmerman case, you have to live in a neighborhood that has just enough property values to keep you paying the mortgage and just enough proximity to dangerous territories to make you feel like you're living on the frontier.

The chain of events doesn't make much sense to the elites, which is one reason why they assume that the explanation must be racism There weren't a lot of New Yorker readers cheering as Charles Bronson's Paul Kersey stalked the subways and parks of the city blowing away hoods. The perfect target audience for the Death Wish movies or for Goetz saying "You don't look too bad, here's another" was that bottom half of the middle class that didn't have enough money to leave the city and didn't have enough liberalism to accept the violence as their just due.

But the case isn't about race either. It's about a struggling middle class in a precarious economy trying to hang on to what it has. And it's about a culture of dropouts from the economy who celebrate thuggery and then pretend to be the victims. It's doubtful that anyone in Zimmerman's neighborhood who weathered multiple break-ins has much sympathy for the Martin family. And that's one reason that the prosecution hasn't found any useful witnesses.

If Trayvon Martin had been the clean cut innocent kid that the media tried to pretend he is, the reaction might have been different. But he wasn't. The gap between Martin and Zimmerman wasn't race, in other circumstances most liberals would have called both men members of minority groups, it was aspiration.

George Zimmerman wanted to to be a cop. Trayvon Martin wanted to be a hood. It's quite possible that Martin got no closer to his ambition than Zimmerman got to his. Both men were just going through the motions on the edge of a game of cops-and-robbers that suddenly turned deadly real. And even in a country where the thug tops the entertainment heap, the vulnerable parts of the middle class have more sympathy for aspiring cops than for aspiring thugs.

What are cops and thugs? Cops are the protectors of the middle class and thugs prey on the middle class. Not just any part of the middle class, but the vulnerable parts, the men and women without enough money and mobility to get out when neighborhoods turn bad. And then it all comes down to territory and who can intimidate whom. Either the cops intimidate the thugs or the thugs intimidate the cops.

Everyone is the hero in their own story, but George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin were living out different stories. George Zimmerman was looking out for his neighbors while Trayvon Martin was looking to live the thug life. Martin's story ended with him realizing that sometimes attitude isn't enough and Zimmerman's story ended with him realizing that sometimes even when you try to be the hero, you're going to be drawn as a villain.


But the Zimmerman and Martin story is an American story. That's why it has become so big. Back in the 70s, when Paul Kersey was skulking around on the silver screen, it was mainly an urban story. Now it's an everywhere story. It's a story about homesteaders and savages, about a shaky middle class built on piles of debt trying to protect what's left of its way of life while across the street, there's the glamor of not working and scoring money any way you can.

It's a culture clash of a primal kind. Settlers and nomads. Cops and robbers. Builders and destroyers. And it was never going to end well. The elites want the settlers to make way for the nomads, the cops to acknowledge their role in alienating the robbers and the builders to admit that their construction is really the destruction of the way of life of the destroyers. They don't understand the struggling lower middle class and they don't care to. They have a great deal of empathy for the Trayvon Martins swaggering around another neighborhood that decays at their touch, but none for the George Zimmermans, sweating, mopping their brows, worrying how they're going to hold everything together.

Neighborhood watches don't have to turn violent, but they exist because of the potential for violence in a society with plenty of law, but little order. The struggling middle class looks to the cops only to realize that the cops have their own job and it isn't to protect them, it's to protect each other. And so they become cops. It's vigilantism of a sort and it's a symptom of social collapse. But it's also the attitude that helped make the United States happen.

That's the real story behind the headlines, the agitprop and the circus of a public trial. It's the reality that doesn't get talked about much because it's much less interesting than the straightforward story being fed into the presses. The one about an innocent young boy killed for no reason at all. It's a story about what happens when people are backed into a corner and then told to stay there. It's about a frightened middle class trying to survive. And it's about territory.

Settlers make homes. Nomads walk in and out of them. Builders thrive on making things and destroyers on trashing them. Zimmerman picked his side of the coin and Martin picked his.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
"IF THE HEAD SPLIT, YOU MUST ACQUIT."

I MAKE JOKE PHILO. OJ LAWYER JOHNNY COCHRAN SAID: "IF THE GLOVE FIT YOU MUST AQUIT". VERY FAMOUS QUOTE. I WILL JOKE NO MORE THEN WITHOUT SAYING "PHILO, I JOKE MAKE AGAIN". HOPING THAT IS OF HELP.




PHILO SAID:
"His head wasn't split. He was all but unscathed."










CNN SAID
"...photos, reportedly taken minutes after the shooting, showing streaks of blood on the back of Zimmerman's head. "

I CHANGE JOKE FOR YOU PHILO,
"IF HEAD HAVE STREAK OF BLOOD, YOU WEAR THE GLOVE."
IF OJ HAS HIS WAY, HE'LL MAKE HAY.
I WILL GLADLY PAY YOU TUESDAY FOR A HAMBURGER TODAY


HOPE THAT HELPS YOU.
"KNOCK KNOCK ..."WHO'S THERE" ...."BACK OF THE HEAD....BACK OF THE HEAD WHO"
PICTURE FROM HUFFYPO


blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:11am PT
Prosecution just pulled a dirty switch allowing lesser charge of manslaughter.

Grounds for appeal if you ask me.

I don't think you're right about that--I think lesser includeds are presented to the jury all the time (but I'm not a criminal defense lawyer and could be mistaken, and it may be jurisdiction specific).
The exclusion of the the texts about fighting on Trayvon's phone seemed both wrong and good grounds for appeal to me. For example, the phone was password protected, but the judge said something like any 7 year old could defeat the password. My phone is password protected, and I'd bet the judge any amount of money that no 7 year old (or any other non-hacker without sophisticated hacking equipment) could use my phone. Sounds to me like the judge made an evidentiary ruling on a critical issue based on her mistaken view of the way passwords and phones work.

Edit:
The judge really doesn't like this defense team
What I have read and seen in one news story anyway ...
That's the way it looks to me too; her rulings haven't been all one sided, but on balance, they seem to me to have hugely favored the prosecution, and I'm concerned that the jury won't know things that all of us know (e.g., Trayvon's texts about fighting I mentioned above--they're very interesting, if you haven't seen those texts and have an opinion as to what type of guy Trayvon was, I suggest you may not know the full story).
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:17am PT
Riley, they were texts between friends discussing Trayvon's fights, his plans to get into another fight with some guy he had fought before, and his friend telling him he had to stop fighting so much!!!!!

If you don't think that's relevant in considering who may have "thrown the first punch," well, we see it differently!
I'd just like for the jury to have access to all the relevant facts!


Texts between kids ?

And not to pick on you, but I recall one of your previous posts where you said that 17-year olds that you knew when you were growing up were men, and would fight just fine, not whine like little girls. I believe you and agree with you. Let's not call a big, 17-year old, tatood fighter a "kid."
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:28am PT
I mean u can't use a f*#king gun with blood in it that is found in a guys house if the cops don't attain that evidence legally
But u can introduce hacked stupid text messages ?

I'm sure they weren't hacked--defense lawyers have rights to obtain evidence relevant to their client's alleged crime (as do civil litigants)--it's generally called "discovery," and engaging in that process is how lots of lawyers spend much of their time, trust me on that.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:52am PT
Well, how do you get private texts then?

You subpoena the phone carrier and/or have expert witnesses examine the phone (yes, they can defeat the password protection).

The investigators believed that Zimm's story was both substantially consistent with itself and with the evidence, so I'm not what "lies" you're referring too. I do recall they noted minor inconsistencies, but they understand that's normal. Someone who tells too perfectly consistent of a story is probably telling a rehearsed lie.

And remember the prosecutions's "star" witness (the obese young lady), who admitted lying repeatedly, under oath, in order to say what she thought Trayvon's parents wanted to hear.
So don't get too harsh on Zimm--ordinary people lie all the time when they perceive it to be in their interest.

That's it for me tonight, we'll see how the defense closing and the pros rebuttal turn out tomorrow.

aint a parent on either side of this argument which would advise their kids to put their hands up and stand quietly while the guy assaulting them calms down in hopes hes not a child molester or psycopath

Yeah, cuz short obese "white hispanic" non-athletes are grabbing 6' muscular, tatted out 17-year African-American fighters all the time to molest them.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
I don't understand why Zimmerman can stand his ground, but Martin can't. You have to admit though, he looks real thuggish in that photo above.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
I don't understand why Zimmerman can stand his ground, but Martin can't.

From the start "He looks like he is up to no good or on drugs or something?" Yeah, or something...

Martin did nothing and yet "These Assholes always get away." What Assholes ? Black Assholes ? Teenage Assholes ? Assholes in hoodies?

Zimmerman was told NOT to follow him. Zimmerman was NOT standing his ground, he was followin/chasing a teenager. If someone (not a cop) was chasing me, you bet your ass I'd run away and start throwing punches if they caught up to me.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
From the start "He looks like he is up to no good or on drugs or something?" Yeah, or something...

He was on drugs--he was high on pot (but that evidence wasn't presented to the jury for apparently somewhat complicated strategic reasons).
The reset of your post presents the prosecution's version of events, but it's largely unproven conjecture. It is undisputed that Trayvon could have easily gone home after he noticed Zimm following him, but he chose not to.
I don't have any particular interest in going through all the evidence yet again at this stage, other than to note that your version is not an accurate summary of the actual evidence.
For example, to say that Zimm was "chasing"--you're just making that up. And if you'd really start punching someone just because they seemed to be following you and approached you and asked what you're doing--well, you wouldn't. That's not reasonable behavior--that's what a violent teenager does who wants to teach a "cracker" a lesson.
And even if you think Zimm's guilty, that's not enough to convict; you have to believe it "beyond a reasonable doubt."

I agree with Riley that it's really hard to have a feel for what the jury will do--I'm sure the defense is very afraid of the "compromise" verdict of manslaughter as wanting to "compromise" is human nature for most of us.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Zimmerman lied repeadtedly.

Lied about his past arrest record to police when questioned at the scene.
Lied about whether he'd been in a pre-trial diversion program in the past.
Lied about his finances during bond hearing.
Lied about surrendering his passport(s).

I have no opinion on how the verdict will go. But to say this guy isn't a proven, habitual liar is asinine and ridiculous.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
He was on drugs--he was high on pot

And Zimmerman could tell that while following him in his car? Zimmerman didn't say he was high... he said he was "up to no good OR on drugs OR SOMETHING." You can assume EVERYONE is "up to no good" or "on drugs" or "something" and be correct 100% of the time. That doesn't give you the right to chase them down, confront them, and shoot them.

It is undisputed that Trayvon could have easily gone home after he noticed Zimm following him, but he chose not to.

If you were a teenager, being followed by someone in a car, and you wanted to get to home (the green box), what path would you take?


Zimmerman was NOT standing his ground. He was pursuing his victim. You are an idiot.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
Zimmerman was NOT standing his ground. He was pursuing his victim. You are an idiot.

Maybe, but if you think that you have a right to attack someone because you perceive that he is following you and he asks you what you're doing, you just may wind up a dead idiot.

I could easily explain a fallacy that you appear to be under re: "stand your ground," but why bother, it's more fun to see you continue to make a fool of yourself.

OK everyone the case is in the jury's hands, doubt we'll hear anything today as the jury won't want to be perceived as acting rashly no matter what the verdict. Monday could be the big day. A hung jury wouldn't surprise me either--as the comments on this site show, people seem to have fairly polarized views that are only loosely tethered to the actual evidence.

If Zimm's convicted (entirely possible if not probable, especially in light of some of the judge's evidentiary rulings), we'll have to see how appeals shake out, but that could be years down the road and I doubt it'll merit much more than minor news even if a conviction is reversed.
If he's acquitted, that is realistically the end of it from a criminal law point of view. (The public defender pointed out that, theoretically, the federal government could bring a separate charge. While that's true in the abstract, I believe the federal investigation concluded there were no federal issues raised.)
Trayvon's family could bring a civil suit, which I think is likely (and that may happen even if Zimm's convicted, but it's hard to see what the point would be then.)
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:55pm PT



Nobody will retry this case after Z. is acquitted, possibly by a hung jury.


Jessguess, with a hung jury, I think it will go to retrial.

You have to admit though, he looks real thuggish in that photo above.


I think Gary is kidding. Trayvon looks kinda delicate compared to high school "toughs" I remember. But the tiny girlfriend does make him look very tall.

Yes, I think many teen boys do talk about fighting...perhaps not the science and tech group, but in general male student body, there's a pecking order based on physical prowess.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Yes, I think many teen boys do talk about fighting...perhaps not the science and tech group, but in general male student body, there's a pecking order based on physical prowess.

I'm not sure if you intended it, but your statement about teens talking about fighting seems a little misleading.
Trayvon's texts weren't talking about fighting in the abstract: they were a discussion about a particular fight he's been in, how he'd won that fight, and how he was planning to further confront the loser. The person Trayvon was texting with said Trayvon should stop fighting so much!

If I were on the jury, that would be very interesting information to consider regarding who may have initiated the physical confrontation. But the jury didn't get that information, apparently at least in part because the judge thinks that 7-year olds can hack password protected phones.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
I don't understand why Zimmerman can stand his ground, but Martin can't.
There's the core of it right there.

6 point summation for the prosecution:
a - Zimmerman thought he was "protecting" the neighborhood from the thieves
b - Zimmerman thought he was "deputized" in a sense
c - Zimmerman is a wannabe cop, a vigilante
d - Zimmerman profiled a kid in a hoodie as a bad guy.
e - Zimmerman persisted in tailing TM after the 911 dispatcher told him "we don't want you to do that"
f - How was Trayvon supposed to know the guy confronting him in the night was NOT a thug?

implication: Zimmerman was on a "mission" that night and Trayvon stood HIS ground. Which HE had every right to do.

Which EVERY one of us should have the right to do.
Long ago in a valley far away two drunk lettered athletes followed me in the night. They yelled at me and I turned to face them. One of them threw a punch and hit me in the mouth. I decked him and cleared out before his buddy knew what had happened. Did I mention I think they went for me because I had long hair and a beard they thought I would be easy prey?
I had EVERY right to defend myself. As did Trayvon.

This is precisely why Police are required to wear distinctive uniforms and badges. So you KNOW they have the authority to stop you. Even they don't have the right to automatically shoot you unless they've identified themselves and subsequently you actively resist and they have no other recourse.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
Did anyone see the fight Trayvon was texting about, Blahblah?

Maybe he felt insecure about being thinnish and was doing some empty bragging.

I've heard men, young and old boast about epic tavern fights in which they were victorious...but they never come to work with marks on their face so...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Did anyone see the fight Trayvon was texting about, Blahblah?

Maybe he felt insecure about being thinnish and was doing some empty bragging.

I've heard men, young and old boast about epic tavern fights in which they were victorious...but they never come to work with marks on their face so...

Trayvon was only "thinnish" by the standards of obese Americans (a la our friend Zimm, who merited a 0.5 on athletic scale of 1 to 10). You can bet in most of the world Trayvon would be looked at as the well nourished, healthy guy he was (take a look at the pic of him without his shirt on).

I calculated Trayvon's BMI--it's 22. Not underweight or even close to it--really a perfect physical specimen.
As I've said before, Trayvon's very close in size to Alex Honnold, except I'd guess Trayvon outweighs Honnold by 5 or 10 pounds.
Trayvon was built like a high level middleweight boxer, looks a little like a young Bernard "The Executioner" Hopkins.

Of course it's possible Trayvon was lying about his fighting (maybe he lost the fight, maybe he wasn't even it), just like the prosecution star witness was an admitted serial liar and Zimm was caught in some lies. So with all these liars, can't you find some reasonable doubt?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
who needs a judge and jury when you gotsd supertaco!

the supreme idiots court of condemnation.

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
So with all these liars, can't you find some reasonable doubt?


Yes, I enertain some doubts he intended to shoot Trayvon (in the beginning). But no doubt he pushed the encounter without authority and brought a firearm into it.

The mistakes Trayvon may have made did not justify being shot...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
I'd guess Trayvon outweighs Honnold by 5 or 10 pounds.
Trayvon was built like a high level middleweight boxer

You'd guess, huh? Well that's scientific.

The medical examiners report: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/martin.autopsy.pdf

Cites him as 5'11, 158.

That is pretty scrawny.Honnold, btw, is about the same height and 160ish, so actually heavier than TM. And Honnold is scrawny too, I've bouldered with him and he is thin and does not strike an imposing or even particularly muscular or athletic figure.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
You'd guess, huh? Well that's scientific.

The medical examiners report: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/martin.autopsy.pdf

Cites him as 5'11, 158.

That is pretty scrawny.Honnold, btw, is about the same height and 160ish, so actually heavier than TM. And Honnold is scrawny too, I've bouldered with him and he is thin and does not strike an imposing or even particularly muscular or athletic figure.

I'd guess because I don't know exactly how much Honnold weighs. Sounds like you don't either, except to say "160ish," so he's just about exactly the same size as Trayvon, if you're right.
Th two best climbers I've personally spent a lot of time climbing with are about 5'10, low 150s, and about 6', about 140. The 6' guy is "scrawny," naturally thin, but really more wiry. The 5'10 guy is just thin and muscular, with low body fat and thin legs. Either one of them would easily kick "average Joe's" ass in a fight--they're rangy, athletic guys.

If you don't think Honnold is muscular, what are you, a bodybuilder? I thought this was a climber site.


Oh and if you want to be Mr. Science: what's your support for saying 5'11, 158 is "pretty scrawny"? Especially if you extremely low body fat, which Trayvon appeared be, based on pics I've seen.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
if you think that you have a right to attack someone because you perceive that he is following you and he asks you what you're doing, you just may wind up a dead idiot.

Yeah, I'm sure everyone here teaches their teenagers to engage in conversations with strangers who follow them at night. Besides, that isn't what happened.

Look at the record you dipsh#t. Zimmer was following him and had convinced himself he was "up to no good or on drugs or something." Based on what? Skin color, age, and a hoodie? Absolutely NOTHING in the record shows that Martin did anything to indicate he was "up to no good or on drugs or something."

Zimmer went around the building to confront Martin apparently because "these as#@&%es always get away." How did Zimmer determine the teenage boy was an as#@&%e trying to get away with anything?

Martin had no where to run. He stood his ground... or perhaps tried to get around Zimmer, which would clearly start a fight when it involves an overzealous wannabe cop with an attitude problem.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Martin had no where to run. He stood his ground... or perhaps tried to get around Zimmer, which would clearly start a fight when it involves an overzealous wannabe cop with an attitude problem.

Zimm had already called the cops. If Trayvon would have just stood there, they could have both stood there until the cop arrived. And then Zimm would have looked like the fool that he in fact was.
Or Trayvon could have called the cops, his dad, his bro, or he could have asked the girlfriend he was talking to to call for help. Remember he was talking on his cell phone as he was being "chased" (actually followed, in part) by Zimm, and he had "escaped" Zimm before the final confrontation. What happened between the initial following, the "escape," and the final conflict is anyone's guess.

The girlfriend on the phone with Trayvon didn't even try to find out what happened to Trayvon for days--is that consistent with her having a conversation with someone who seemed to be in imminent fear for his life? Or someone was mad at a "cracker" who was dissing him and needed his fat ass kicked?

If you think Travyon tried to dart around Zimm or something and Zimm grabbed him, I suppose that's possible, but there isn't any evidence to support that. All of the evidence is that, at the end, Trayvon was on top, Zimm on the bottom, getting the crap beat out of his obese ass by a much more athletic guy.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
Blahblar, Honnold himself cites 160 as his BW. Not guessing there, just repeating the man himself's claim.

You seen many 5'11" 160 dudes? They are skinny. Not that hard to figure out, not really a matter of debate to most. I could make most skinny people loook pretty buff with a 10min iron pumping session, some oil, and harsh overhead lighting.

In any case, enjoy the speculation.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
Zimm had already called the cops

yes, and what was it they told him not to do again?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
Zimm had already called the cops.

Yes, and they told him not to follow Martin.

If Trayvon would have just stood there, they could have both stood there until the cop arrived.

How do you know he didn't just stand there? How do you know he didn't try to walk around Zimm? How do you know Zimm didn't have his weapon drawn when he came around the building? You don't. All you know is Zimm followed him, confronted him, and shot him. Why? Skin color, age, and a hoodie... NOTHING ELSE. He could have tailed him, saw where he lived, and directed the cops there. Instead he came AROUND a building to get in his path and confront him.

Do you have kids? My niece and nephew, whose parents are police officers, would NEVER just stand there when a stranger follows them in a car and then comes around a building, blocking their safe passage to home.

You are a complete fuking idiot.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
Norton, you're a little late to the party, but check out Zimm's actual response, the follow up question about which way TM was headed, etc.
It gets complicated. Anyway, as the dispatcher testified, they have no right to "tell" people what to do, and they don't "tell" people what to do.

As I've written before, Zimm shouldn't have followed TM, he does have moral culpability (if not legal culpability, which remains to be seen). If Zimm does somehow get acquitted, I kind of hope TM's family does bring a successful civil suit (the different burden of proof is big).


ElCap--I'll admit TM was a pretty lean dude if you admit that Zimm is a fat-as-crap, short little butterball. So what was the point again?



Do you have kids? My niece and nephew, whose parents are police officers, would NEVER just stand there when a stranger follows them in a car and then comes around a building, blocking their safe passage to home.

You are a complete fuking idiot.

If your niece and nephew are as fuking retarded as you are, perhaps they would just carry on a conversation with whoever they were talking to on the phone and not ask them for help, and not call for help themselves.
And then they'd probably attack whoever was following them, instead of trying to run away.
IQ is genetic in part, yes?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
Stand your ground: A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

1) a)“Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person which causes substantial emotional distress to that person and serves no legitimate purpose.

2) A person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/

Zimmerman was engaged in an unlawful activity. Therefore, "stand your ground" does not apply.

You lose again blahbullsh#t, but you're no doubt used to it by now.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
What'd Zimmermann do that was unlawful? ( before he shot Martin )
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
You can read, right?

1) a)“Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person which causes substantial emotional distress to that person and serves no legitimate purpose.

2) A person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Hey, Wessy cracked the case! Zimm can't use SYG, because he's guilty of stalking!!
Oh wait, Zimm wasn't even charged with stalking. And the prosecution never even argued that Zimm wasn't entitled to assert self-defense based on unlawful activity, or that Zimm engaged in any unlawful activity other than shooting Trayvon.
Sorry, wrong again. At least you're consistent.

How about giving some safe-streets lessons to your nieces and nephews: tell them when they're strolling around chatting on their phones and see they're being followed, don't tell the person they're talking to call for help or terminate the call and call for help themselves, just chill out for a few minutes, and if you see the guy following you again, it's time to attack!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
Norton, you're a little late to the party,

actually, blah

I have read every post on this thread from the beginning in addition to watching the trial on TV

however, I have not posted until recently as I did not feel I had a comprehensive understanding of the facts from both sides until the trial was very nearly over

maybe I should have just jumped in along with everyone else and decided way back in time?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Chaz gets it.

"Stand your ground" doesn't apply here.

There's a difference between standing your ground, and looking for trouble.

This Zimmermann guy was looking for trouble.

Blahsh#t, the SYG law says "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity..." it does not say "a person who is not guilty of an unlawful activity..."


"Who started this? Who followed who? Who was minding their own business? Of the two, who was the one that was armed?"
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Wessy, instead of playing amateur lawyer (badly), just read the fuking jury instructions (pasted below).
And then answer this, how will the jury know that Zimm was committing the misdemeanor you think he was, when the prosecution never even contended that he was, and the jury won't even be aware of the existence of that misdemeanor, much less the elements necessary to establish guilt?

SYG doesn't even have much if anything to do with this case--all it really means, in this case, is that Zimm had no duty to retreat unless he was engaged in unlawful activity. But "duty to retreat" never applied here, as the deadly force occurred after Zimm was getting grounded and pounded by TM.
You can still use deadly force even if you have engaged in unlawful activity, it's just not under SYG (and of course it has qualifications).

Here's an example to make this concrete: Wes goes into porn store to steal butt plug. Gets caught by cashier, who pulls out shotgun and says he'll kill Wes for that. Wes knows he can safely run out of the store before getting shot, but decides to pull out his gun and shoot cashier instead.
Wes cannot take advantage of SYG in that case, because he was engaged in unlawful activity. He had a duty to retreat.

If Wes hadn't committed any crime and the cashier said he'll shoot Wes because he doesn't like the way Wes looks, Wes would have the right to shoot cashier, even if he could have safely retreated, under SYG.

This is all sorta interesting, but doesn't have much to do with Zimm's case.

JUSTIFIABLE USE OF DEADLY FORCE
An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense. It is a
defense to the crime of Second Degree Murder, and the lesser included offense of
Manslaughter, if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.
“Deadly force” means force likely to cause death or great bodily harm.
A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is
necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.
In deciding whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you
must judge him by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was
used. The danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify
the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably
cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the
danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, George
Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.
If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any
place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his
ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was
necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent
the commission of a forcible felony.
In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical
abilities and capacities of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the
question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should
find George Zimmerman not guilty
However, if from the evidence you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that
George Zimmerman was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find him guilty if all
the elements of the charge have been proved.

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Zimmerman_Final_Jury_Instructions.pdf
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
Radically provoking a confrontation while carrying a firearm is profoundly blameworthy...and this ending with loss of his innocent victims life, Mr Zimmerman should be punished...even if essential doubts posit toward a manslaughter conviction.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
how will the jury know that Zimm was committing the misdemeanor you think he was,

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah.

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Here's an example to make this concrete:

Not sure if you realize this because you are clearly a complete fuking idiot, but

1) Zimmerman (the pursuer) was the only one with a gun.
2) There isn't a SHRED of evidence that Trayvon was committing ANY crime.
3) It is NOT the duty of a neighborhood watchman to confront potential wrongdoers. They are explicitly told not to get physically involved.
4) Zimmerman went out of his way, not to follow Trayvon and report his duties to the authorities, but to intercept and confront him.

Therefore, your example is COMPLETELY irrelevant and idiotic... possibly more so than your existence.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
Hilarious! But Wessy, why would the jury conclude that what you wrote means that Zimm did anything unlawful? You remember the dispatcher's testimony that they cannot and do not tell callers what to do?
And you remember that Zimmerman told the dispatcher "OK"? (Whether Zimm did in fact keep following Trayvon, or just came across him, is disputed.)

And even if he did do something unlawful, he's still allowed to use deadly force, as explained in the jury instruction!

OK I'm done with Wes on this, he's been beaten as bad as TM was beating Zimm.

2) There isn't a SHRED of evidence that Trayvon was committing ANY crime.

Wes, you either know very little about this case or you're pathetically stupid (or both), so you should just STFU.
The wounds to Zimm, the condition of TM's body (abraded knucks from punching Zimm), and direct eyewitness testimony establish that TM was beating the fuk outta Zimm.
That's a CRIME you fuking pathetic idiot!!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
So two guys get in a fight in your neighborhood at night.
One is whupping the other. But NOT choking him, or pulling a knife or a club.
The whuppee pulls his gun and shoots the whupper dead.

Manslaughter? You bet, In My Not So Humble Opinion.
But hey, opinions are like ....... everybody's got one.

The jury verdict will be very interesting.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Florida Manslaughter Sentencing:

Manslaughter with a Weapon or Firearm

The crime of Manslaughter with a Weapon or Firearm is classified as a First Degree Felony and is assigned a Level 7 offense severity ranking under Florida's Criminal Punishment Code.

If convicted of Manslaughter, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 9¼ years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:

Up to 30 years in prison.
Up to 30 years of probation.
Up to $10,000 in fines.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

So in your world of idiocy, I can pick a fight in a bar and then shoot the person "in self-defense?"

You have proven yourself stupid beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
reasonable
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
Ahh, but HT, they say he was slamming fatboy's head against the curb. Could kill someone pretty easy that way.

Bottom line for me: You got out of the car, with a gun, seeking a confrontation knowing that if something escalated or you became afraid you would turn to your trusty sidearm. You weren't "Standing your ground" you were advancing and initiating a confrontation, knowing you had superior weaponry or at a minimum equal, and the drop. Then, while losing the physical confrontation you initiated, you turn to your sidearm and kill the person. The end. F*#k you. Guilty. Go to prison.

Don't care about racism, pot smoking, lying to judges, knock knock jokes, or any other sideshow minutiae.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
reasonable has nothing to do with it when blah is involved.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 12, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
Vigilantes aren't trained law enforcement. Why didn't he just call the po-po like any good neighborhood watch person?

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 13, 2013 - 12:04am PT
Did Tray walk up to Zimm and start beating the fuk outta him?

Or did Zimm get out of his car with a gun and confront Tray for being "up to no good or on drugs or something" because he wasn't going to let another one of "those as#@&%es get away with it?"

I don't think self-defense applies when you are following someone for no reason and initiate the confrontation. Apparently a lot of white male conservatives think it does.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 13, 2013 - 03:16am PT
George Zimmerman may have designed instigating a confrontation to shoot someone...

Sadly,proving premeditation wasn't going to happen in this prosecution. Even a manslaughter conviction might persuade some truculents that society won't tolerate neurotic/paranoid vigilantes agitating for assassination...
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 13, 2013 - 04:20am PT
gotta agree with the RIGHT WING COWARDS thing...you don't NEED a gun to defend yourself if you BELIEVE in yourself...


a crazy ass right wing CRACKER may kill you because HE NEEDS a GUN to PROVE his manhood...

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 13, 2013 - 04:50am PT
I'm sorry, but this tragedy trancends right wing / left wing bickering...

Uncalled for shedding of innocent blood begs elemental justice... not purchase for more polarization.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 13, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Hi Ron

Obviously, the case is important because of highly charged racial implications.

And history will record it as an important marker in U.S. race relations

Fundamentally, Mr Zimmerman’s defense is, I saw a young Black teen...I made up my mind he was a felon. I persued him, challenged him, he resisted and I shot him. What’s the problem?

Two strangers who never met... one walking with a bag of skittles and the other provokes and murders him unrighteously. If we can do that and get away with it...what chance do we have for a civil society? ...what hope will blacks and other minorities have for a just society?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 13, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Well put Jennie I concur completely.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
this tragedy trancends right wing / left wing bickering...

But why is it that the majority of white conservative males think Zimmerman had every right to confront Tray for being "up to no good on drugs or something" despite ANY evidence of Tray doing ANYTHING wrong... other than being a black teenager with a hoodie? Why do they seem to think it is okay for an armed man to get out of his car, follow a teenager, and initiate a confrontation for NO legitimate reason?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
That's an excellent summary, Jennie.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
folks are missing the forest for the tree bark ..

Worth repeating.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 13, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
What the hell kind of a question was that that the jury asked?
Sounds like they're total retards -> Zimm's in deep sh#t.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 13, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
I thought manslaughter was out of the question.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 13, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
I posted previously that the Florida sentencing guideline for Manslaughter with a Firearm is 9 1/2 years.

That is the minimum
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 13, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
Zimmerman was out of line. No question.

But people are making a lot of presumptions here, like Jennie's "innocent blood", when in fact we can't know what actually happened and any presumption of innocence by law is due to the defendant.


But now that the prosecution has effected a last minute change of the rules by pulling "manslaughter" out of their asses the jury will ignore the smell, and seize upon it as a spineless compromise.

In the end though a manslaughter verdict would probably save lives by mitigating potential riots.

Pretty sad.

I will likely not live to see the day when we are sufficiently hybridized to make race a non-issue, but fortunately we are irrevocably moving in that direction.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 13, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
"innocent blood", when in fact we can't know what actually happened and any presumption of innocence by law is due to the defendant.

We do know what actually happened... Rimmerman determined that Tray was "up to no good or on drugs or something" because he was a black teenager in a hoodie walking around at night.

Rimmerman, a wannabe cop, got out of his car with his gun, walked around the building to intercept Tray, and instigated a confrontation.

White conservative male idiots say Tray should have run, yet in the next breath say Rimmerman was acting in self-defense. Rimmerman was the one who started the fuking confrontation, for NO LEGITIMATE reason.

Why is Tray not allowed to defend himself with his fists when confronted on his way home, but fukhead can instigate the confrontation FOR NO LEGITIMATE REASON and then shoot his victim, and claim self-defense?

Can I go into a bar with a gun, start a confrontation for no legitimate reason, and then shoot someone in "self-defense?"
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 13, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
I wanna see sum RIOTS baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wish I knew someone in Florida - I could use a new flat screen TV.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 13, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
Stand Your Ground Law

In the United States of America, stand-your-ground law states that a person may justifiably use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of an unlawful threat, without an obligation to retreat first. The concept sometimes exists in statutory law and sometimes through common law precedents. One key distinction is whether the concept only applies to defending a home or vehicle, or whether it applies to all lawfully occupied locations.

Under these legal concepts, a person is justified in using deadly force in certain situations and the "stand your ground" law would be a defense or immunity to criminal charges and civil suit. The difference between immunity and a defense is that an immunity bars suit, charges, detention and arrest. A defense, such as an affirmative defense, permits a plaintiff or the state to seek civil damages or a criminal conviction but may offer mitigating circumstances that justifies the accused's conduct.
wiki

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
There is

Zero
0
Nada
nothing
No

evidence that Zimmerman ever initiated a confrontation

Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but your belief that it did is no more supported by evidence than the immaculate conception.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
Not Guilty - FKNA!

Let the burning of South Florida begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Woohoo.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Can't beat a guy when he's down. That was Martin's fatal mistake, and Zimmermann's ticket home.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Wessy STFU. No one has said TM should have run; just saying he had the option of running if he somehow felt that was a good idea.
He did not have the legal right to attack Zimm just b/c Zimm came up to him and asked him what he we doing.
Pretty f*#king simple to someone of normal intelligence.

But Zimm is not blameless--as PR said, he was out of line, and I kind of hope a civil suit or something goes forward.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Really? Not guilty?

That seems a tad lenient, manslaughter should have been the least punishing conviction he should have received.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
Can't beat a guy when he's down? You can still shoot from the ground, can't ya?

Didn't Z claim TM saw his gun?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
Kudos to the jury who did their job and refused to bow to mob intimidation and to forces that sought , for political reasons from the very beginning, to make this into a racial and political issue.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
That pig Cory is now giving a press conference saying she is "so proud," of what she did, un-f*#king believable. What a disgrace to the legal profession.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
This was a political show trial from day one.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
There is

Zero
0
Nada
nothing
No

evidence that Zimmerman ever initiated a confrontation

Fuking idiot.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Yes, because Zimmerman is a huge fuking pussy who instigates confrontations knowing he can end it by shooting his victim with his penis substitute.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
Freaking amazing. As long as there are no witnesses you can kill and claim self defense.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
Wes and Riley,

You're two of my favorite ST posters, so it pains me to hear your strongly biased opinions on this one, and it pains me to have to strongly disagree with both of you. OUch! Ouch!!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
Bottom line: No one knows to a reasonable certainty how the final "confrontation" went down - by "final" I mean the last crucial moments. The prosecution had the burden to show intent to kill beyond self defense and beyond reasonable doubt. I'd bet I followed this case as closely as you guys did and it simply did not.

Sure, did Zimmerman set in motion a series of events that led to this tragedy? For sure. But did this rise to the level of manslaughter taking into account the uncertainty in the final moments of confrontation, no way. Not in my analysis.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
With all of the guns in our possession a little vigilante action here and there can only help bring human population down.....a damn good thing for biodiversity and a healthy planet.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 13, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
Let the civil suit begin. No book deal or movie profits for Z.

The homeowner association already settled a suit.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Jul 13, 2013 - 11:03pm PT

Sure, did Zimmerman set in motion a series of events that led to this tragedy? For sure. But did this rise to the level of manslaughter taking into account the uncertainty in the final moments of confrontation, no way. Not in my analysis.

He set it in motion. If he would have stayed in the truck and let the cops deal with his suspicions this would never have happened.

I hope karma comes around.
TREED

Trad climber
Gunks
Jul 13, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
OJ was not guilty too.
Zimms life is over.
Tready

Trad climber
Quito
Jul 13, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
Well, I guess if you needed ANOTHER reason to stay the hell away from Florida...
Mimi

climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 12:04am PT
It's amazing how people refuse to adhere to the facts of the case. Trayvon didn't have to beat the crap out of GZ for 45 seconds. All he had to do was say, "WTF honky! I'm heading to my crib." And GZ would've let him cut through.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 14, 2013 - 12:14am PT
A 17 year old kid forced to make the right decision in a stressful situation. Thanks, GZ.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 14, 2013 - 12:27am PT
So I've been listening to MSNBC, the news and views cable outlet with which I mostly strongly identify. Tonight, though, I am disappointed by its biases on this one. Tonight it stands in stark contrast to CNN.

.....

It seems to me the take home (which parents should be passing on to their children tonight in the wake of this tragedy) is that... you just cannot "confront" others anymore like you could bitd even one or two generations ago (indeed, just as young adult males are inclined to do) because there's just no telling if the "confrontation" will escalate and insofar as it does, there's just no telling if one's packing a firearm and inclined to use it.

Obviously the world was different 50 years ago, in many respects communities were tighter in customs and traditions and folkways, more homogenous, more predictable. Today we are challenged to adapt, today as much as ever if not more. Insofar as we forget this, we invite disaster into our lives.

I know you guys know this, I suppose I'm just repeating it for my own self for reinforcement sake, I guess.
abrams

Sport climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 01:09am PT
In Chicago there is no way to pin down the reason for shootings.
People would be surprised if there were not daily shootings there.

Most always 100% black on black. If they are doing the racist revenge bit
for Trayvon on whites the CPD will go medieval on their ass's.



Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 14, 2013 - 04:03am PT
Appalling affront to justice... The perpetrator of a deadly encounter, without authority to stalk, persue or provoke, endorsed and upheld in his villainy because the youth fought back...

MLK said,"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."

...with uncomprehending, provincial verdicts favoring the ruthless, that "moral arc" won't be bending any the sooner.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2013 - 07:13am PT
***

A mockery of reasonable fear for life: As a woman, I'd have been terrified if a strange man got out of a car and followed me. If that man had a gun, I would have no doubt my life was potentially in jeopardy. Does it matter that I'm a white woman and Martin a black man? Does it matter that Martin was wearing a hoodie instead of a dress, or perhaps, business attire? It shouldn't.

The verdict in this case elevates the rights of cowboys and wanna-be cops over those of law-abiding citizens. With no evidence Martin was committing any crime, Zimmerman had no justification for sticking his nose — and his gun — into Martin's business. Martin didn't owe Zimmerman any explanation for his presence in the neighborhood. Zimmerman's carrying a deadly weapon — one which did not contain Martin's DNA, suggesting he never touched it — most likely put Martin in fear for his life. Letting Zimmerman off the hook over uncertainty as to who struck first whitewashes Zimmerman's provocation and the power imbalance between the provocateur with the gun and the unarmed citizen.

— Carol Bengle Gilbert
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:23am PT
If some vigilante punk ass confronted me with a gun I would, given an opening, beat them to within a bloody inch of their life. Would I be in the wrong? Or should I just let them terrorize me like a good Toby?
God I am grateful I don't live in the South. It's like some despicable third world banana republic.
Half this Country disgusts me.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:42am PT
It is too bad how this whole case has been racialized and over-hyped. If there are riots it is the media's fault.

This was a difficult call for the jury. It is a good thing they were sequestered. 30 years ago we would never have seen such a circus made out of a trial like this.

Zimmerman's self-defense defense made a manslaughter conviction unlikely because he already admitted he shot intentionally.

Remember, it was the prosecution that had the burden of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) in this case.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 14, 2013 - 08:49am PT
Remember, it was the prosecution that had the burden of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) in this case


But proof of what, sir? Mr Zimmerman admitted to following, profiling and confronting the victim. He instigated a deadly encounter with a firearm... by his own admissions.

The premise of Trayvon fighting back doesn't put a gloss on Zimmerman's outrageous behavior, excuse it or wash away the blood. Mr. Zimmerman came out of the encounter with his life...Trayvon didn't. Zimmerman could have backed off at several juncture...he didn't, despite a lack of tangible evidence TM was engaged in criminal action.

Trayvon paid dearly for whatever sins he effected...Zimmerman, who initiated a clash with a gun...without authority...comes out of this with virtual endorsement of hideously belligerent behavior.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jul 14, 2013 - 08:50am PT
The verdict isn't surprising. The trial was just an exercise that had to be performed. The prosecution intentionally tripped up. It was in the State's interest to let Zim off the hook because now the law has precedent on a national scale and it puts people on notice that they'd better follow the laws and rules to the letter.

Remember, this is the Southern State that refused to retire "Ol' Sparky" (the misfunctioning electric chair) until they couldn't justify it anymore.
Rollover

climber
Gross Vegas
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:15am PT
No surprise on the verdict..
GZ the profiler, stalker, and murderer WILL indeed make a fortune.
NOW he gets to testify on TV (glad I don't have one), free from prosecution.


Sad day to be an American.

Florida is a disgrace all around.
America's Australia.
Only criminals and the criminally insane in this shallow,murky backwater.

I hope that karmic justice will get GZ and
Florida.

GZ eats a bullet.
Florida secedes.

Murder. Straight up murder.
Wanna-be Dirty Harry rent a cop was gonna shoot his gun that night.
GZ's gun made his balls grow that night, typical Napoleanic complex.

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:24am PT
5/6 on jury were white. Is this 1932?
Rollover

climber
Gross Vegas
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:29am PT
1932 Mississippi maybe.
Crackers-only jury..
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:33am PT

But why is it that the majority of white conservative males think Zimmerman had every right to confront Tray for being "up to no good on drugs or something" despite ANY evidence of Tray doing ANYTHING wrong... other than being a black teenager with a hoodie? Why do they seem to think it is okay for an armed man to get out of his car, follow a teenager, and initiate a confrontation for NO legitimate reason?


OK. Wes...that's fair...

We could hope that folk's humanity might rise above politics in this. The country is so polarized, now...people want to construe everything under the sun through their socio-political polarity...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:46am PT
Justice in America is supposed to be"Blind".
Clearly Florida's isn't Color Blind.

Inequality = injustice = inexcusable.



CBS NEWS/ May 12, 2012, 10:32 AM
Fla. mom gets 20 years for firing warning shots

Marissa Alexander of Jacksonville, Fla., received a 20-years prison sentence, Friday, May 11, 2012, for firing warning shots against her allegedly abusive husband. The judge rejected a defense under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law. / WETV
975 Comments
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(CBS News) JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - A Florida woman who fired warning shots against her allegedly abusive husband has been sentenced to 20 years in prison.

Marissa Alexander of Jacksonville had said the state's "Stand Your Ground" law should apply to her because she was defending herself against her allegedly abusive husband when she fired warning shots inside her home in August 2010. She told police it was to escape a brutal beating by her husband, against whom she had already taken out a protective order.

CBS Affiliate WETV reports that Circuit Court Judge James Daniel handed down the sentence Friday.

Under Florida's mandatory minimum sentencing requirements Alexander could receive a lesser sentence, even though she has never been in trouble with the law before. Judge Daniel said the law did not allow for extenuating or mitigating circumstances to reduce the sentence below the 20-year minimum.

"I really was crying in there," Marissa's 11-year-old daughter told WETV. "I didn't want to cry in court, but I just really feel hurt. I don't think this should have been happening."



Play VIDEO
George Zimmerman found not guilty
Alexander was convicted of attempted murder after she rejected a plea deal for a three-year prison sentence. She said she did not believe she did anything wrong.
She was recently denied a new trial after appealing to the judge to reconsider her case based on Florida's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law. The law states that the victim of a crime does not have to attempt to run for safety and can immediately retaliate in self-defense.

Alexander's attorney said she was clearly defending herself and should not have to spend the next two decades behind bars.

Alexander's case has drawn support from domestic abuse advocates - and comparison to the case of neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, who has claimed a "Stand Your Ground" defense in his fatal shooting of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin.


If The JEBster were still Florida's Governor he would probably award Zimmerman the States highest medal for valor. F*#KFLORIDA. They are making Texas look good.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:48am PT
without authority to stalk, pursue or provoke,
Last I heard, it was not unlawful in Fl to follow someone.

He instigated a deadly encounter with a firearm... by his own admissions.
This is a totally bogus claim, shame on you. (A specialty of religions and supernaturalists by the way.)

Philo, you write as if you think Zimmerman pulled his gun before they were fighting it out on the ground. If you paid your due diligence to the court proceedings, then you would know there was zero evidence of this, let alone any beyond a reasonable doubt.

Here some of you just might be letting your left wing (obsessions) leanings cloud your judgment.

GZ the profiler, stalker, and murderer...
Shame on you.
Sad day to be an American.
What is sad is to read so many of these sub-100 IQ (or "minus-30" IQ because of bias and emotion) commentaries...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:52am PT
Philo, you write as if you think Zimmerman pulled his gun before they were fighting it out on the ground.

Really where. reading comprehension difficulties or deliberate misconstruing?
Shame on YOU.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:56am PT
Philo wrote, very last page,
If some vigilante punk ass confronted me with a gun I would, given an opening, beat them to within a bloody inch of their life.

Speaks for itself.
Double shame on YOU.

I hope that karmic justice will get GZ and
Florida.

GZ eats a bullet.
Florida secedes.

Murder. Straight up murder.

Look at the company you keep.

On this subject, the left wing crazies just might out number the right ring crazies. God help us, eh Jennie? ;)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:57am PT
No it speaks to what I would do to stand up for and defend myself against someone confrontoing me with a gun. I would subdue them if I had the opportunity. I would leave them a mess but alive. If Trayvon fought back against a stranger who was stalking and confronting him (with or without a gun) how does that make him the one in the wrong? You can hide behind the "we don't know what happened" argument if you choose to. But what would you have done? Run away? Cried "Oh Please don't hurt me"? Maybe you would have taken the time to call dispatch and explain "I am a young Black man in a predominantly White neighborhood and I feel threatened by a White man following me in a truck" "Oh Jeepers he is getting out of his truck" "Golly what should I do?". "Hello, is their anyone there" Crickets.....



Colorado has an intriguing legal contradiction.
The "Make my day law" which allows a citizen to kill an intruder without consequence. And the" No Knock" entry law. Which allows cops to kick a citizen's door in without warning.



Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:00am PT
(A specialty of religions and supernaturalists by the way.)

Ha-ha-ha!

...still suffering from that monomania? Good to see you out in the sun and fresh air though.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:14am PT
Really, I think this speaks for itself...
If Trayvon fought back against a stranger who was stalking and confronting him (with or without a gun) how does that make him the one in the wrong? You can hide behind the "we don't know what happened" argument if you choose to. But what would you have done? Run away? Cried "Oh Please don't hurt me"?

So the $64M question: Is it sub-100 IQ at work here or "minus-30" IQ?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:19am PT
Do you suppose for a minute that a character like Zimmerman would exit his car, at night, to confront a Black man in a hoodie without drawing his penis extension first? You are fool if you do.
Zimmie was looking for his Rambo moment. He found it. Too bad he had to get a little scuffed up though it probably hurt.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:26am PT
You must be horribly upset that the whole country didn't live up to your prejudice and erupt into riot and chaos.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:56am PT
And in other news

Fla. mom gets 20 years for firing warning shots... not instigating a confrontation with someone based solely on appearance and then shooting that person dead.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

Justice is lost, Justice is raped, Justice is gone



Frutcose, set me straight. There is no evidence Tray did ANYTHING until he was confronted by Zimmerman. Zimmerman instigated the confrontation because Tray looked like he was "up to no good or on drugs or something" and "these as#@&%es always get away with it." Can you explain what that even means, especially the "on drugs or something" and "get away with" what? If Tray had walked up to Zimmerman's car and instigated the confrontation it would be a totally different story.

FACT: Zimmerman, clearly already in confrontation mode and armed, approached Tray... NOT the other way around.

How is this any different than me taking a gun to a bar, picking someone I think is "up to no good or on drugs or something," picking a fight, and then shooting them in "self-defense?"
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:01am PT
Angry, But Mostly Peaceful Protests Follow Zimmerman Acquittal
SCOTT NEUMAN and GREG ALLEN
July 14, 2013 8:48 AM

John Raoux/AP

John Raoux/AP

AP

Gary W. Green/Getty Images

Scott Olson/Getty Images
1 OF 5View slideshowi
Months of intense media coverage, weeks of courtroom testimony and hours of jury deliberations boiled down to a not guilty verdict for George Zimmerman, delivered by a jury of six women late Saturday.

The decision came 17 months after Zimmerman, a self-styled volunteer watchman, fatally shot unarmed black teen Trayvon Martin during a confrontation in a Sanford, Fla., community.

Zimmerman showed no emotion as the verdict was read at about 10 p.m. ET. Judge Debra Nelson ordered his GPS restraint removed and the former defendant walked away a free man.

Zimmerman didn't talk to the media after his exoneration, but his lawyers did. "We're ecstatic with the results," lead defense attorney Mark O'Mara told reporters after the verdict.

"Was it fair? It was a little bit David and Goliath. But we won," he said.

Asked if he had a message for Trayvon Martin's parents, O'Mara repeated something he's said before, that their son's loss is a tragedy—that it's always a tragedy when a young person dies.

Outside the courthouse, justice looked differently to Martin family supporters. They chanted, "System has failed." Others yelled "No! No!"

Martin's father, Tracy Martin, took to Twitter to say that he was "broken hearted" over the verdict, but he thanked everyone who will "make sure this doesn't happen again."

But the worst fears of authorities in Sanford — that a not guilty verdict could spark violence or possibly riots — went unrealized Saturday night.

Elsewhere, the anger was contained to mostly peaceful demonstrations ranging from a few dozen to a few hundred in San Francisco and Los Angeles, where news of the verdict broke earlier in the evening. In Oakland, Calif., however, about 100 protesters broke windows, started fires and vandalized a police car.

During the weeks of testimony and arguments, prosecutors portrayed Zimmerman as a "wannabe cop" who saw Martin from his car, assumed he was a criminal, and forced what ultimately became a deadly confrontation.

Zimmerman's attorneys maintained that their client acted in self-defense after Martin knocked him to the ground and repeatedly bashed his head into a sidewalk. The verdict indicates jurors were convinced that Zimmerman was justified in fearing for his life when he shot Martin.

The jury was permitted to consider second-degree murder or a lesser charge of manslaughter. During Saturday evening's deliberations, a few hours before the verdict was announced, the jurors asked the judge for clarification on the manslaughter charge.

NPR's Greg Allen Reports


Zimmerman Not Guilty On All Charges
NPR's Greg Allen, who has covered the weeks-long trial in Sanford, reports that the prosecution acknowledged that it had always known the case would be a tough one to prove. Even so, special prosecutor Angela Corey said she was proud her team had made good on a promise she made when she took the case:

"That we would get all of the facts and details of this very difficult case before a jury," she told reporters. "And that we chose to do it that way because we felt that everyone had a right to know everything about his case."

Her assistant, Bernie de la Rionda, the lead prosecutor in the case, took the verdict harder. He said he accepted it but was disappointed.

"What it boils down to is you got a 17-year-old kid, who is minding his own business, wearing a hoodie, and gets accosted—gets followed by an individual who wants to be a cop," de la Rionda said.

Benjamin Crump, the lawyer for the Martin family, said he believes the 17-year-old will be remembered alongside Civil Rights-era heroes Medgar Evers and Emmett Till as a symbol of the fight for equal justice.

"We would be intellectually dishonest if we didn't acknowledge the racial undertones in this case," he said. "So we have to have very responsible conversations about how we get better as a country and move forward from this tragedy and learn from it."

For those readers who might want a refresher on the case leading to Saturday's verdict, The Two-Way's Mark Memmott last week compiled a timeline of the story based on our headlines:

Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, 2012. George Zimmerman had called police that evening to report a "suspicious" person in his neighborhood. After the shooting, he told investigators that Trayvon attacked him. When authorities failed to arrest Zimmerman, Trayvon's family and supporters began a campaign that led to protests in cities across the nation.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:25am PT
The defense may have won the case by jury selection, before opening statements...before any testimony or evidence was introduced.

The defense emphasized George Zimmerman's fears for his own life and they know women jurors are more sensitive to "mistreatment." I think they looked for nurturing, generous women rather than analytical, restrained men (or women).

Women who would be aghast at Zimmerman's claim of Trayvon banging his head on the concrete and give him free ticket for laying hold of his gun.

More analytical, temperate individuals would see this testimony in context of the whole account and perhaps decide Trayvon was the real victim and responding to the provocation in an instinctive manner for his own survival...
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:28am PT
It is supposed to be a jury of his peers, no?

Should have been a bunch of racist wannabe cops with an inferiority complex.

(rSin, nobody but blah, blurring, blueblocr, or TGT could be THAT stupid. I'm guessing manzy man is being sarcastic... of course I could be wrong.)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:50am PT
Racism is the new sex for a creed of politically correct puritans who are obsessed with a new kind of prurience. As the last sexual taboos fall by the wayside, the new taboos are political and the new witch hunts are all about exposing hidden reservoirs of bigotry among celebrity chefs and lurking White Hispanic menaces.

The intimate moral faults that keep a population in a state of conformity and terror are no longer sexual, but political. The new prudery is political and the new hypocrisy is racial, knotted over with double standards and exceptions for the watchers and the elites who are exempt from the occasional witch trial, no matter how many black cats and cauldrons they own.

Racial tolerance has long since become racial denunciation. Tolerance has become paranoia. The fear of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Of giving the wrong impression. Of failing to be properly guilty for some vague complicity of privilege and oppression. Those fears and guilts must be constantly reinvigorated with fresh doses of trials and denunciations. Public spectacles to serve as reminders that the greatest evil of all lurks everywhere and that we must stand vigilant against it.

The graduate of a modern liberal arts university receives training in spotting and identifying the most obscure forms of bigotry. He isn't taught to spot burning crosses, but to denounce implicit narrative privilege. The microscope that he wields to spot the most obscure forms of bigotry imaginable doesn't really detect bigotry, it manufactures it. It crafts his higher moral ground by exposing the wrongdoing of everyone and everything else.

His or her contemporaries have few skills, except the familiar one from every totalitarian state of denouncing enemies of the state for some trivial act. Having been turned into inquistioners by an educational system that is terrible at producing engineers or scientists, but spectacular at producing politically correct policemen of public spaces, they might as well inquisition.

Bigotry is the bugbear of the moment, but next year it might be salt or short hair. Racism just happens to be easier to rally against. It also comes with the most moral authority points.
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2013/07/post-racial-and-racially-obsessed.html


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 14, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
America just went back 50+ years. Congrats...all of you defending this decision should be proud.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 14, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
You want ill will between two races, look at Hispanic/African relations in the ghettos of Cali. THATS where you see instantaneous and undisquised disapproval and hatred. White/black hate has become almost quaint. Those who cling to it as explanation of their failures in life are lying and whining.

There is no significant or united efforts any longer to hold blacks back. The few who hold such opinions have almost no actual power to effect any actual damage. All this crap is high-mouth posturing, making reputations, solidifying power structures and collecting MONEY out of continued race mongering.



Travon made ONE damn big mistake. Thinking he could beat hell out of someone he didn't like. Kids often make that mistake, its sad but true. And in this case, he was very wrong. Travon was not a precious innocent child. He was a young man, with knowlege of the world, a like of violent martial arts TV shows, and a man with an attitude at that. He met his opposite number and they immediately destroyed each other on sight.

Zimmerman had one other thing that Martin didn't have. Z. knew the police were coming, SOON. He was unlikely going to do anything he would have tho0ught they would disapprove of just before they showed up. Travon had no idea they were on the way so he did what he wanted to. And that got him killed.

Arson, you really need to revisit that statement, you sound even more like a clueless troll than usual. That is too stupid a statement to even try and defend.


I think these are obvious points that are lost on the politically-correct race-baiters here.

Well said. Prepare to be slammed for saying the obvious.

America just went back 50+ years. Congrats...all of you defending this decision should be proud.

Why aren't hate-crimes pursued when gangs of blacks attack whites?? Almost never!
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 14, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
blurring, almost never... or about 20%

Of the 6,008 known offenders, 58.6 were white and 18.4 percent were black.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/november/hatecrimes_111411/hatecrimes_111411

GFYS you idiot.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 14, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
Blu..whites commit three times as many 'hate crimes"...and what type of point are you trying to make...poor little white boy?

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2011-hate-crime-statistics

Jess...Laws are supposed to protect the innocent, not kill them.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 14, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
From where you sit behind your safe screen, I can't see how you can possiby have a problem with me. Call me that to my face and you might have some whine.


You sound like a pussy Riley. And thats a first really, I had better thoughts of you than that until you startesd the personal attacks.



Not having any answer, you resort to slander of a person you don't know?


Weak sauce for a man. Most men know that differences of opinion are to be expected and even encouraged.


Haha, welcome to my world. If you state facts, you are "racist". Whatever...

YOU however are possessed with a barrel of sour grapes and an endless bottle of Whine.


Classic!
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 14, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
If you state facts, you are "racist".

You have never stated a fact... you only state "facts." You don't even know what a real fact is you idiot.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 14, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
You have never stated a fact... you only state "facts." You don't even know what a real fact is you idiot.


These aren't "facts", just stats, but you'll never get true black/brown on white crime stats from the MSM.

http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 14, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
oh "newnation" website! That is way more "factual" than fbi stats because they rely entirely on news reports... so you know it is "true."

fuking idiot. You don't even know what a "stat" is.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 14, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
I don't get it Manzanita, Travoning is a white guy lying drunk?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 14, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
This thread is really going downhill fast. Just shows how really far America has to go.


What a racist POS who has to use that website as "stats". From the web:
**
"If you pop into any of the forums, you will quickly see that this is some sort of twisted white supremist/KKK version of Dreamin' Demon. God, I hate to even refer to the two in the one sentence! Some highlights:**


Five year old Emily Rimmel, kidnapped, raped and killed by a feral nigger who the family called a " family friend"


The hole dayum country is a joke G. The way niggers are treated like royalty instead of kings like Martin Loofer and Rodney, they way mexicrement am allowed to get Socialist Security Benefits for working illegally etc. The country is one big pile of doodoo now. And yes, this nigger should have been dispatched long ago.
Reply With Quote

Ok enough, I am going to start crying. While the guy is a child rapist/murderer, this is going too far. So far, in fact, that it jumps off the radar of acceptable reactions.

This is the link to the 'news'"

http://www.newnation.org/"


Nice website you got there Blu.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
11. You make insanely racist comments and then act victimized when people point that out.
12. You post a video of a black guy hitting a white guy and demand that people draw the conclusion that all crime is black guys hitting white guys.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 14, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
This thread should be pretty much over, unless there's a civil suit (very possible) or federal civil rights case (which would surprise me, but that's not my area) or something like that.

As a coda from me, I was listening to my standard center-right talk radio program earlier and they had Craig Silverman as a guest. Craig's the former Chief Deputy DA of Denver (a fairly liberal city, solidly Democrat) and now a prominent local lawyer and legal commentator.

He basically said charges should never have been filed as there was no way to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt--the evidence just wasn't there, and that should have been obvious to any experienced lawyer.
He acknowledged that the prosecution's case probably wasn't quite "malicious prosecution" as the judge let the case go the jury (which may have been a mistake, I think we all saw the judge leaned heavily toward the prosecution), but insinuated that the prosecution was borderline unethical.

He also thought that it would be a good idea to investigate other significant trials handled by that group of prosecutors, based on their overall behavior and significant ethical concerns.
When asked by the host if Zimm may have been guilty of some lesser charge, he said "no." (I'm not really sure he was right about that--Wessy seems to think Zimm was guilty of "stalking" or some similar misdemeanor, although it's notable that the pros. never made that contention. What Wessy was too fuking stupid to understand, but which should be obvious to anyone with a brain, is that you still have a right to defend yourself even if you've committed a misdemeanor. It does change the effect of SYG, but not in a way that had anything to do with Zimm's case).

If you somehow are troubled by the trial result, maybe the views of an experienced criminal lawyer with no axe to grind will ease your mind. And I do think some good may come from this whole fiasco--people who are both kinda like Zimm and kinda like TM may both want to check their conduct.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
13; You call for the cold blooded murder of Blacks.





You are a racist Manzanitaboi
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
norton, have you heard of "planking"?

well, no

must be some white guy lying drunk on the street thing?

please educate me what those pictures you posted and now "planking" have to do with the Florida Stand Your Ground Law, Manzanita?

thanks
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
that video was a home invasion robbery of a black male beating a white WOMAN with a kid in the room and then threw her down the stairs.

so what?

what is your point in posting it?

to show that you have a grasp of the obvious....that black people can commit crimes?

want me to post some videos of white people committing crimes against black people?

what is your point?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
Just shows how really far America has to go.


What a racist POS who has to use that website as "stats".

Good thing it isn't America, it is just blurring and the rest of the Merkins.
WBraun

climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
Just heard ......

Obama administration is going to go against the Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution (Double Jeopardy)
and is unconstitutionally filing federal charges against George Zimmerman.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Looks like you heard wrong Werner..."WASHINGTON — The Justice Department says it is looking into the shooting death of Trayvon Martin to determine whether federal prosecutors should file criminal civil rights charges now that George Zimmerman has been acquitted in the state case.

The department opened an investigation into Martin's death last year but stepped aside to allow the state prosecution to proceed.

In a statement Sunday, the Justice Department said the criminal section of the civil rights division, the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's office for the Middle District of Florida are continuing to evaluate the evidence generated during the federal probe, in addition to the evidence and testimony from the state trial.

The statement said that, in the government's words, "experienced federal prosecutors will determine whether the evidence reveals a prosecutable violation."
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
"I'll be damned if I can find somebody who has had to do as much self-defending as that boy."

James Butler Hickok commenting on John Wesley Hardin.
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
Can't imagine how bad it must suck for Trayvon's soul to be weighed down with his final horrible thought's of, "Creepy ass white cracker! You are going to die tonight."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
Zimmerman has been declared an enemy of the state.

The Grand Inquisitor will have his day.


The FBI reports won't help the inquisitor though.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/07/12/155918/more-evidence-released-in-trayvon.html#.UeNjS22wViC

I heard Dershowitz this afternoon in an interview. (Not exactly an icon of conservatives.) He not only thinks that there is no federal civil rights case, but that the prosecutor should be disbarred for misconduct.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
it's technically not double jeopardy if you charge him with a different crime.

Handy that we have so many laws on the books isn't it.. we can just keep prosecuting someone till one of em sticks.

It is double jeopardy in reality but not in legality.. such is the way we toss the constitution in the drain because we don't understand the principle of

land of the free home of the brave.

Personally I believe Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter by being reckless and stalking someone.

But I am much happier letting the guilty free than taking the chance of putting the innocent in jail.

Takes balls to let the guilty go free ... takes a coward to try to bypass the importance of freedom over security.


Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
No riots = no civil rights charges.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
rSIN you are turning into what killed your friend and left him strung up like a fish at the market.

Beware the effects of hate.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
I don't support Z man

I think he is guilty of manslaughter

But I do support letting the guilty go if there is a smidgeon of doubt.

since there are no reliable witnesses and we only have zimms story.. it was pointless to even bring up charges..

sometime the guilty go free.

better that than taking the chance of the innocent going to jail.

thinking , suspecting,, being pretty sure.. it's not enough..

sadly we don't always do that way..

fact is rSin you dont know for sure what happenned that night.. yet you wanna mutilate this guy.





climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
beyond a reasonable doubt..

think on it.

it's a good idea.. but it takes the balls to set the probably guilty free.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
Until a legal system comes along that never finds guilty an innocent person. EVER for anything

I don't support the death penalty.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
That fat, slovenly piece of shite certainly needed a gun. Unfortunate that genetic debris can cause damage with artificial means.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
why are you so ready to string up a person you don't know is guilty?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
why are you so ready to string up a person you don't know is guilty?

Isn't that the Amerikan way?
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
I'm thinking I don't think like a lot of the folks posting on this thread.

I hadn't realized how much hate and fear is harbored within so many of you.

Not being present, yet sure your judgement is the only true and correct.

Reminds me of all the folks so certain they know the afterlife, like they've been there.

Carry on.

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:38am PT
The Justice Department opened an investigation into Trayvon's death last year but stepped aside to allow the state prosecution to proceed.

The department said, today,"experienced federal prosecutors will determine whether the evidence reveals a prosecutable civil-rights violation."

In federal court, the defendant has no absolute right to waive a jury trial for a bench trial (as some states allow). But a jury trial would likely favor Mr Zimmerman to a greater extent, anyway. Federal prosecutors, of course, can't wholesale choose the jury...but perhaps federal prosecutors would be adept at rejecting potential jurors with grave hot-button issues about Trayvon fighting Zimmerman.

Whether the Judicial Department goes ahead with a prosecution will probably be subject to the degree of public pressure exerted. Department heads will recoil at the costs and some attorneys might feel untenable going against hi-profile defense counsel...

But if the public demands it...it may happen.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 08:55am PT
Zimmerman being found "not guilty" means nothing more than there was not enough evidence to find him "guilty." It doesn't exonerate what he did. It doesn't mean that he did the right thing. The "right thing" was for both Zimmerman and Martin to simply have run away. As far as I'm concerned they both made very, very poor decisions. The only reason that Martin is dead is that one of the people making bad decisions had a gun...which is exactly why the whole macho "this is a Glock neighborhood we don't call 911" culture is such idiocy.

dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:41am PT
HDDJ, excellent post.

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:41am PT
Florida sucks on so many levels. And it is flat as fvck.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:45am PT
There is a valid argument that there was not enough evidence because the police department didn't treat it as a crime from the beginning and so important things were lost. That may be true but there is no way of knowing for sure. People are trying to smoosh a lot of issues into this verdict that do not necessarily belong. People should be outraged about the event, the process but not the verdict. Finding Zimmerman guilty given the evidence presented likely would have simply added another layer of injustice to what was already a horribly unjust situation.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:14am PT
Probably because someone cannot decide that laws do not apply to them, but that is just a guess. SYG or not, it does not sound like there was a whole lot of great evidence to convict him. I don't think people actually want anyone to be convicted of murder without good evidence, which is exactly the kind of thing that many people complain happens to too many people of color.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:23am PT
People suck. Seriously. Hopefully some kind of nuclear holocaust will take us out soon. "We all got it coming, kid."
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:05am PT
^^ Like you'd have a clue about either.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:07am PT
Manzanita man gets his 'facts' from newnation and tweets.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:16am PT
Still no news on those 6 whites killed in by rioting blacks as reported by your tweeter sources?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Bwahahaha
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
With Racial Roles Reversed, Three Self-Defense Cases That Went The Other Way

By Annie-Rose Strasser on Jul 15, 2013 at 9:50 am

George Zimmerman was acquitted in the murder of Trayvon Martin over the weekend, successfully using a claim of self-defense to convince six jurors that he was right to shoot and kill the 17-year-old Martin. The case centered around the question of whether Martin was physically aggressive toward Zimmerman in any way — the defense claimed that the teenager bashed Zimmerman’s head into the concrete — or if Martin was simply a victim. Ultimately, the jury decided, the prosecutors could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin didn’t engage Zimmerman in a fight, prompting him to use deadly force in self-defense.
Self-defense cases are fairly common in the American justice system. And while in Zimmerman’s case, many feel that justice was left undone for the shooting victim — and that the boy’s race, black, and the man’s, white hispanic, were a deciding factor — the roles are often reversed; there have been notable cases in recent years where what seem to be reasonable self-defense claims by black defendants are dismissed by a jury:

Marissa Alexander:
In the middle of a domestic violence incident, believing that her husband was threatening her, Marissa Alexander fired a warning shot into the wall to ward him off. In court, Alexander tried to use a claim of self defense — specifically, Stand Your Ground, the same law that let Zimmerman walk free on the night he shot Martin before later being arrested. As ThinkProgress’s Nicole Flatow previously pointed out, “Alexander would not have needed a Stand Your Ground law to defend her action. While that law goes so far as to authorize unfettered deadly force in self-defense without a duty to retreat, Alexander used significantly lesser force that would fall under a typical self-defense claim.” Ultimately, though, it didn’t matter; her defense wasn’t as successful. Alexander, who had no prior record, was sentenced to 20 years in jail — a mandatory minimum for the crime.

John McNeil:
On one fateful night in December of 2005, a black businessman named John McNeil got a call from his son that someone was “lurking” around the backyard. That person turned out to be white 19-year old Brian Epp, a hired contractor for McNeil who had past disagreements with McNeil’s son. When McNeil got home, he told Epp, who was weilding a box cutter, to leave the property several times. After Epp repeatedly refused, McNeil fired a warning shot, which caused Epp to run. As witnesses attest, McNeil then shot Epp in self-defense, killing him. A court rejected McNeil’s self-defense claim, sentencing him to life in prison — but McNeil was lucky; his case drew a ton of media attention, and with it, calls from powerful politicians and the NAACP to reconsider the case. After six years in jail, McNeil’s charge was reduced to manslaughter and he was let free — with many caveats: He must serve out 13 years of probation, during which time he cannot leave the state of North Carolina, and he must pay $75 a month as part of his probation. Unlike Zimmerman, he will be forced to carry the charge permanently on his criminal record. And more than anything else, McNeil can’t get those lost years back; while he was sitting in prison, his mother and wife died.

John White:
The case of John White is similar to the Trayvon Martin/ George Zimmerman story, but with racial roles reversed. In 2006, black 54-year-old John White shot dead white 17-year-old Daniel Cicciaro after an altercation at White’s home. White reported that Cicciaro and several other white teens showed up at his door looking to beat up his son. White greeted the group of boys at his driveway, holding a pistol. He reported that Ciccairo “lunged” for the gun, and it accidentally discharged, striking the teenager. When the case went to trial, White characterized the group of white teenagers as a “lynch mob” and insisted he was only trying to defend his family. The jury — made up of 12 people, 11 white and one black — found him guilty of manslaughter. He served just five months in jail before his sentence was commuted by then-New York Gov. David Paterson (D).
Tags: George ZimmermanRaceTrayvon Martin

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/07/15/2297541/self-defense-zimmerman/
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
HighDesert DJ said - Zimmerman being found "not guilty" means nothing more than there was not enough evidence to find him "guilty." It doesn't exonerate what he did. It doesn't mean that he did the right thing. The "right thing" was for both Zimmerman and Martin to simply have run away. As far as I'm concerned they both made very, very poor decisions. The only reason that Martin is dead is that one of the people making bad decisions had a gun...which is exactly why the whole macho "this is a Glock neighborhood we don't call 911" culture is such idiocy.

Best summation I've heard yet.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
Philo,

Warning shots will ALWAYS get you into trouble, which is why nobody who knows anything about armed self defense would ever recomend doing that.

You - and Vice President Biden - don't seem to understand that.

How many more news articles do you need before you see that?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
gary, i must have some common sense, i knew from the facts presented in this case that he would be found not guilty and you and others on here didnt. i was right you were wrong. go suck it and have a nice day.

As usual, you are wrong again, peckerwood.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
George was right!

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Martin is the one responsible for introducing both racism and violence in that encounter. Mixed with Zimmermann's idiocy, it's no wonder someone got killed.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
You see....


Zimmerman was not a racist

in fact he is part Hispanic and part White, so how in the world could he be a racist

Zimmy hated all scummy criminals, he didn't care what race they were

He is a national hero to white people everywhere

and a Credit to His Race
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
Riley,, what i said is fact. Sorry you dont like it.

But even obama played the race card with his " if i had a son hed look like" speech.

At every turn politics was behind this case.

And if you dont see that YOU are the moron here.

ron,

riley is incapable of accepting those facts which may be counter to his BS beliefs. in other words, he knows the truth as he see's it and everyone else who thinks differently must be a fool because his belief's tell him he is right.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
And what about you Hawkeye?


You seem pompously assured of your own intellectual superiority.
When in fact you are like an overloaded colostomy bag dribbling bile all over the forum.
And that's teh troof.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Philo nails it again.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Was Obama's "look like Travon" speech before or after Zimmermann was charged and arrested?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
How come our dear president hasnt commented on the thousand other homicides recently?

duh, gee I just don't know

could it possibly be because the entire national media was fixated on the Zimmerman trial

nah, that can't be it

I can't figure out why
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Was Obama's speech before or after weeks of nationwide protests?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
Yes the President should start every day with a televised reciting of all the people killed by guns in the previous 24 hours. Great idea.

Lock and load pilgrim.
Oh and tighten your hood cone head it's gunna be a bumpy ride.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
I didn't know TM was convicted as the perp.

Let's see, one guy is not guilty, therefore the other guy is guilty.

Thanks, Anderson. Always keeping us informed with both your neurons.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
The "PERP" was Zimmerman. He is the one who (against the express advice of dispatch) got out of his car to confront Trayvon.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
I take joy in the fact that Ron and his likes don't have kids and can't pass their sh#t onto another generation.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
Ron wrote: boboDA,, who says i dont have kids? YOU DONT KNOW me.. So stop pretending you do.

I know you are a racist loser.

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
The jury didn't say TM was the perp, no matter how many times you say it, Anderson.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
The fact that he was taking 3 mixed martial arts classes a week should have disqualified him from owning a gun. And who feels comfortable with rent a cops having guns? Another stupid preventable tragedy.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Yep, rioting only happens in FL, but stand your ground has taken care of that.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
Jess wrote: If I ever have to walk around Southern California's metro areas (or Denver's "minority neighborhoods) long after dark, (again), I sure as hell hope I am with an "Anderson" and not with you Bob. My partners have to be capable of backing me up or I can't/won't take them out. A complete bleating sheet can get you killed. They smell of fear.


Jess...I grew up in a very mixed, very urban area in Philly. I travel to third world countries two to three times a year by myself. I'm not scare of you, Ron or anyone else on this site or where I travel and live. I don't need a gun to protect myself.

They smell fear cause you are a typical white American scare of his own shadow.You are the pussy, plain and simple.
Tready

Trad climber
Quito
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
Just so we're clear Ron, it's an indictment of the African-American community because they're peacefully protesting the verdict, instead of being idiots and killing people?

It's funny how you (or maybe Blue, you all sound the same) turn these things into a "heads I win, tails you lose" sort of thing.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:34pm PT

Keep trying MM we all know it fits.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
Well, I like Zimmerman

I think it is cool that he will make millions from his new book and also people sending him money through the internet

the poor guy has been through a lot and deserves our support

I see they gave him his gun back, but what about his ammo?

why should he not get the rest of the rounds he had in the magazine back?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Everyone should send him Skittles.
Maybe he can use them for ammo.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
Manzanita Man gleefully taunted:
this should piss a few of you off. GZ will make enough off of lawsuits, book and movie deals to buy his own island. suck on that.

If you find yourself gloating about a situation where everyone loses just because the guy who was killed was black...you might be a racist.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Just dawned on me that the a Ronster is like the neighborhood watch of St. Were you also a hall monitor in middle school big guy?

You are proud of support this1950s verdict from 5/6 white women?. ... oh! Da blacks and da black hoodies scares us too!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
Look at all the examples on this thread.
Look in the mirror Cracker.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
oh now manzanita,

I wouldn't be so sure that Zimmy is gonna increase his net worth off this deal

The Justice Department says it is considering whether federal prosecutors will file criminal civil rights charges against Zimmerman. Additionally, a number of civil suits are expected surrounding the case.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/15/george-zimmerman-gun-back_n_3598228.html
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Jess wrote: Everything about this nation is owed to the gun. America woulod never have occurred if it wasn't for guns. The indians were much better with bows than we were.

You are one dumb A-hole.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Burn him at the cross.
He's made "White Mexicans" everywhere look bad.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Cracker got ass beat so shoots to kill. Sounds like open season to me boys! YEEEEEHaaaaa!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
Patrick wrote: Cracker got ass beat so shoots to kill. Sounds like open season to me boys! YEEEEEHaaaaa!


Which is how Ron, Jess and the others defending this Asshole (GZ) would react.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
America woulod never have occurred if it wasn't for guns

yeah!

them pilgrims had to shoot the Indians when they showed up late for Thanksgiving!
spectreman

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
How is GZ a "cracker"? He's as much a cracker as Obama is.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
i just like pissing certain people off with facts.
Too bad you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on your limp dick.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
HD, i just like pissing certain people off with facts.

It's true. The fact that you're a racist makes people pretty mad. You see, decent Americans don't actually like racists. Especially indignant "I'm just posting the fact that black people are terrible" racists. I'm pretty sure there's a eugenics meeting somewhere that you are skipping.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Its not illegal to question a person or to follow him to see where he is going

But would he of continued without a gun in his possession?

Personally (from what little facts I know), once the fight started it was down to survival mode for both. How it got to that point wasn't as important to the jury.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Ron please don't be an ass like Beck and Rush. Unless you can't help yourself.
Obama never claimed what you falsely assert.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Ron that is not what he said. Are you capable of getting one fact right--just one--ever?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Dirt wrote: Ron that is not what he said. Are you capable of getting one fact right--just one--ever?


Isn't obvious to all that Ron is a hack a racist and wouldn't know a fact if it jumped out of the mouth of one of dead animals that he plays with all day.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
No he di not Ron. Google the damn quoite and get it right or stfu.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
I just cringe when I see Ron interpreting numbers.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
Jennamar or whatever the fook your name is: why are you posting here? Did you run out of crosses to burn, you reactionary piece of racist filth?
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
All the hidding racists here are just sad that they may not have had the chance to flex their muscles back in the 50/60s and that now the tables have turned in America and they all those equal rights black people to stand up to with their little guns and all.
As much as I love California, Utah, I will happily take free health care, 6 months+ of snow and knowing every house in the 'hood is not loaded with guns either by gangs, racists or whatever demographic you love to label people.
Me and my young son have walked about a few non-white areas in America, never had a gun, never been afraid.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
It ain't white guilt when you are disgusted by the killing of an innocent 17 year old by an overzealous wannabe cop who assumed he was "up to no good or on drugs or something" based on NOTHING but his appearance. And you are a sick piece of sh#t if you think it is.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
Ron, turn off the rightwing radio.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
So we will never know Trayvon's side. Convenient.



Hey all you bigots isn't there a White Trash parade somewhere that you are missing?
Or a TeaBag party.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
The jackalopes you assemble don't hear anything or speak, which is why they can tolerate your nonstop bs. And yes there is a huge difference between what you sai and what obama said.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Jemarr wrote: The racists here that support Trayvon for attacking a guy doing neighborhood watch is illuminating. But what is at the heart of this racism? Are they just reacting to orders from their media masters?

GZ was out hunting, you can call it anything you want.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Jesusgeuess...
I am sure if a bunch of 60+ year old black folks surfed climbing websites they could tell much more intriguing stories than that.
I was beat up by 3 skinheads years ago for having long hair and being drunk, so what is your point?
Sucks when the tables turn on you or your race eh in a matter of a few decades.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
Cry me a river you pansy assed racist scum bag.

How about coughing and puking up blood for weeks after four drunk redknecks tried to run you down then bailed out of their Ford F250 to gang beat you and bust four of your ribs. My mistake I must have been looking for trouble I was a long hair with a backpack hitchhiking after dark. If not for the big chain swinging truck driver who stopped to help I am sure I would be dead.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
Well let see.....

IF the President had a son then yes, he probably would "look" black, like Travon

instead, he has two black daughters

that is a simple observation by the President

explain how him saying that is trying to "influence" public opinion?

what Ron, in your undereducated, ignorant, and obviously racist as hell brain...

was the President trying to convince Americans that black people have black children?

isn't that fuking OBVIOUS to Americans?

god you are a pathetic horse's ass
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
I think too many people are mixing apples with oranges when analyzing or considering this verdict. First, there is surely racism in America and every other country in the world - so nobody should pretend their country is free of racism.

Second, it appears likely that Zimmerman's personal perceptions and prejudices upon seeing a black person (it is hard to say "kid" or "child" since I assume it would have been impossible to tell at the time of the incident) at the time and place he did, and wearing the outfit Martin was wearing, impacted what he did. That is, if he saw a little old lady, the outcome surely would have been different from the first moment. However, he was not charged with being a racist. He was charged with murder under specific Florida law.

Third, it does not appear that Zimmerman was acquitted based upon race, or the fact that Martin was black. Rather, it appears he was acquitted because: (1) the prosecution either did not have a strong case or failed to put on a strong case - remember, the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt"; and (2) the law in Florida appears to allow this type of behavior.

Fourth, it seems that people who do not like the verdict do not actually understand the law or the evidence. It seems that they are actually not upset with the propriety of the verdict (despite what they think), but rather, they are upset that the law in Florida allows such a death to occur in the first place - I am convinced that Zimmerman would have been convicted of murder in most other states under the same circumstances. Perhaps without even realizing it, they are upset that Zimmerman had a gun in the first place since it is clear that if he did not have a gun, Martin would not be dead.

Fifth, it seems that people who think this verdict proves Zimmerman did something wrong also do not understand a "not guilty" verdict. The verdict does NOT mean Zimmerman did nothing wrong. It simply means that the prosecution, applying Florida law, was unable to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Zimmerman wrongfully murdered Martin (again, under Florida law - as this same incident under the law of most other states would have been likely to yield a different verdict). The verdict also does not absolve Zimmerman of moral culpability or possibly (not certainly since we have no clue) being a racist.

If people are upset with this case, they should push to change the laws. If people are upset with the judicial system, they should consider the fact that prosecutors are woefully underpaid compared to their adversaries in private practice. Judges typically make less money than 1st year associates in NYC right out of law school. The judiciary itself is often less than 50% staffed (in terms of judges and staff) and thus, is generally overwhelmed. If people are upset with our laws, they should look to the often inept and "corrupt" legislatures (and when I say corrupt, I am not referring to bribes or illegality, but rather, the warped sense of why politicians are there in the first place and the influence of lobbyists and big $$).

If this whole incident upsets you in either direction, vent your frustration at the true cause.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
I believe Obama was acting as the "everyman" and explaining that we are all vulnerable to the senselessness of rampant gun violence.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
I have nothing against women Ron...been married to a great one for 38 years.

You're dumber than dirt responses are comical.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Riley wrote: Zimmerman had no business doing any of this!!!!
The kid was innocent , had no knife, no gun, no screw driver and no record ... Nothing !!!
He had candy on him ...


But a-holes like Ron, Jess and GZ needs guns to protect their lame chicken sh#t asses.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Jess wrote: I have been beaten by Mexicans, Italians, whites, blacks and one American Indian who said I was sleeping with his girlfriend (I wasn't). Also beatdown once by an approximately 8 year old girl (I recieved my first 7 stitches from her tender roundhouses as I was knocked off my roller skates three times onto the concrete. I was about 5, definately preschool).



You're lame ass needs a bodyguard or at least your old man should have taught you to defend yourself. No wonder you have issues getting your ass handed to your whole life.
xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
It appears Michael is the only rational non bigot poster to this thread for a while. All the other posts are just reflections that shame themselves and this forum.
Burly Bob
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Doodie you aren't worth as much to the taco as Bob's used toilet paper would be. Why is your racist scumass here anyway?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
this thread demonstrates the finest st has to offer....

guys like riley, norton, and philo unhappy with the judicial system. buy some hankies then will ya?

justice has spoken. yes it was a tragedy for TM to be killed, no doubt. but the jury has decided. put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 15, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Jessguess...
"TM started a fistfight, thinking he would easily teach GZ a lesson. He got schooled by an older man, and the lesson was fatal.

TOO F*#KING BAD."


Really?
Ok too Fking bad when some non-white beats your ass, you whine endlessly about gangs in America today, of course easily forgetting America's KKK roots not 40 years ago. But really, too Fking bad the tables have turned on your Mississippi Burning crap.
So I won't comment from over the northern fence on your F'd up country that you ALL are able to change.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Jess wrote: I ain't saying Bob D;anglo ain;t just a wonderful person and gee whiz lover.

I am saying BITD he was a self appointed camp 4 community watchman, who almost got his nose broke when he tried to enforce the "unwritten rules" of camp 4 that he made up that was biased against non-"stonemasters".

WTF is your dumb ass spewing now? I never hung out in Camp Four, I wasn't a stonemaster and no one in the climbing world has come close to breaking my nose.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Oh look the colostomy bag is dribbling again.

Actual Bigots have no power any more, and are rare as 4 leaf clovers.

"Idiot wind. It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe".
dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
Hawkeye is bitter and angry that he can't harass rokjox anymore.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Too bad you didn't swing at him Jess you would look good wearing your ass for a hat.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Jess...you are a retard.

I never hung at Camp Four...ever.

Jess wrote: But I agree, while I was there, you were not a stonemaster. You were a teenager I think, and not all that good. At least when compared to the actual Stonemasters, who I considered a pretty small group, no matter what is said now about its inclusiveness.


So, see Bob?

We agree on something. Unless I completely am mis-remembering you.


Asshole...I was never a hanger-a-rounder, I been climbing since 71, married to the same woman since 74 and raising a family since 76.


No we don't agree and you are a coward and a whack job.

My full name is Bob D'Antonio, never a valley climber.


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
Ron...tough words...I'll be in northern CA the end of July...you wanna take a shot?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 15, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Would the verdict been the same?


Changes the perspective.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Justice has a color...http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/black-americans-given-longer-sentences-than-white-americans-for-same-crimes?news=843984


Ron...you just might see me. I don't need your address, your stench goes a long way.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 15, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
So your kid goes to the store and buys some candy and doesn't come home because some amateur night watchman shoots him! Thats f** up.

He was stalking the kid. Why didn't he ask him if he lived in the neighborhood from his car? Rather than going on foot with a gun in his pocket. Bottom line he foolishly stalked (aginst police advise) an innocent youth and ended up killing him. He is the adult he should have known better. If Trevon did attack him, he probably considered his attack to be self defense. By stalking him he (zimmerman) was the instigator. Hopefully , after the civil trail, his wages will be garnished for the rest of his life for such a stupid mistake.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 15, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Bharata...nice hack job. Really pathetic.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
Jeantel says she heard Martin talking to Zimmerman in the background of the call.

"He said, 'Why are you following me for?' And I heard a hard-breathing man say, 'What you doing around here?'" said Jeantel.

"I start hearing a little bit of Trayvon saying, 'Get off, get off!'" said Jeantel.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
LOL, Anderson, it's a photoshop job.

Rooter's Inc. shoulda clued you in.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
Bob D'A: Bharata...nice hack job. Really pathetic.
Anderson: yeah bobda i wont hold my breath

Yer knott very bright, areya Anderson.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
So Ron, are you saying that if everyone, including Trayvon, were armed the confrontation that GZ instigated for NO LEGITIMATE REASON would have ended peacefully?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
No Anderson, the jury didn't find him innocent.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
LOL, Anderson. Keep on ranting. It's hilarious.

Any reasonable doubt, makes one "not guilty". Innocent is not part of the jury's option.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
What ever are you talking about? As pointed out, the jury did NOT find him innocent.

GZ CLEARLY instigated the confrontation for NO LEGITIMATE REASON. The only reason he had for following Trayvon and confronting him was appearance... he was a black teen in a hoodie so the wannabe cop figured he MUST have been "up to no good or on drugs or something."
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
psst, Ron, you don't know what you are talking about. He was found "not guilty" which means there was not enough evidence to prove he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That does NOT mean they found him innocent. There is a big difference, even if you are not smart enough to comprehend it.

Jess, seeing a black teen in a hoodie is NOT a legitimate reason to follow them, assume they are "up to no good or on drugs or something" and an "as#@&%e" who is trying to "get away." And it certainly isn't a legitimate reason to chase them down and start a confrontation.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
HickSpeakBoy whines about semantics. Precious.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Oh look the colostomy bag is dribbling again.

uh oh. looks like i am being stalked by a pedophilo. maybe he is just after my skittles.

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Hard to prove TM was the instigator of the fight. The evidence showed he might have been a better fighter, but it was Zimmerman who had the gun.
Tready

Trad climber
Quito
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
You guys talk about Zimmerman being in a fight for his life, but the pictures I've seen of his injuries seem pretty minor, and the medical examiner seemed to think they were insignificant and not life threatening as well.

One guy hit it on the head though. There is a racial element involved here, which makes things harder to negotiate, but the fact that it is apparently ok to confront someone because you don't like how they look, and then when the confrontation escalates, it's ok to kill them, should highlight that there's something wrong with the system/law.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Hard to prove something that clearly didn't happen. Trayvon was walking AWAY from the creepy guy who was following him, as any 17 year old should do when they are 10 doors from their home. GZ eventually caught up to him and confronted him. Last I checked, Trayvon's actions were considered the opposite of instigating a fight.

There are about 6 people on ST that I could see believing Trayvon "instigated" the confrontation by being a young black man. But they will never admit it.

From Ron:
Homicides: Jan. 1, 2007 to July 12, 2013
By cause
...
Gunshot
3,575(3,575)
...

You quote that like it has something to do with Trayvon getting shot. The only thing that highlights in the minds of the intelligent is: if GZ had NOT had a penis extension (I mean gun) he would NOT have confronted Trayvon based solely on looks and someone's 17 year old boy would still be alive.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
Anderson still doesn't get the "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" versus innocence concept.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
It works, get used to it.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07/15/2300421/singer-attacked-trayvon-martin-dedication/

Legendary Soul Singer Violently Attacked For Song Dedication To Trayvon Martin
By Rebecca Leber on Jul 15, 2013 at 4:00 pm

Hours before George Zimmerman walked free in his second-degree murder trial, a white woman assaulted soul singer Lester Chambers for dedicating a song to Trayvon Martin. The woman identified as 43-year-old Dinalynn Andrews Potter jumped the stage, reportedly yelling “it’s all your fault,” right before she hit the 73-year-old singer.
A fellow musician Kurt Crowbar Kangas posted on Facebook that Chambers “went down hard” and the woman “was subdued by Police and taken away while the para-medics came and took him to a local Hospital.” He sustained an “8 [inch] scratch in the kidney area of his back and it’s starting to swell.”
Watch the attack (the woman jumps on to the stage at approximately 4:16):Chambers, once part of a legendary 1960s music group called The Chambers Brothers, prepared to dedicate a civil rights-era song titled “People Get Ready,” changing the lyrics from “people get ready, there’s a train a-coming” to “there’s change a-coming.”
The next morning, there were largely peaceful and emotional rallies throughout the country responding to the Zimmerman verdict, and not the race riots pundits had predicted. Meanwhile, Chambers suffered bruised ribs and nerve damage for making a public statement about the case.Chambers, once part of a legendary 1960s music group called The Chambers Brothers, prepared to dedicate a civil rights-era song titled “People Get Ready,” changing the lyrics from “people get ready, there’s a train a-coming” to “there’s change a-coming.”
The next morning, there were largely peaceful and emotional rallies throughout the country responding to the Zimmerman verdict, and not the race riots pundits had predicted. Meanwhile, Chambers suffered bruised ribs and nerve damage for making a public statement about the case.

Chambers, once part of a legendary 1960s music group called The Chambers Brothers, prepared to dedicate a civil rights-era song titled “People Get Ready,” changing the lyrics from “people get ready, there’s a train a-coming” to “there’s change a-coming.”
The next morning, there were largely peaceful and emotional rallies throughout the country responding to the Zimmerman verdict, and not the race riots pundits had predicted. Meanwhile, Chambers suffered bruised ribs and nerve damage for making a public statement about the case.

Yea Doodie white trash power. No race riots just a dumb bitch cracker letting her hate beat up a gentle old Black man singing about Peace and Love.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
Quite obviously that was Chambers' fault. He's a thug, after all.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Yeah he was totally guilty of being a Black Man.

I am sure our resident Retardlicans would say if only he had been packin' heat he coulda blowd that bitch away.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Ron queried
HD if America doesnt like racists, then tell me what you think of obamas march 2012 speech where he labels TM as "his son"..


I don't think you "get" racism.


Ron raged
The trial is over, NOT GIULTY the finding,

so stop your pissing, yur moaning, yur whinning

The jury decided this case for you and me

thats how laws work, in REALITY.

You bought the smear the newscasters gave

as it turns out they played you the nave

So sorry the ending was not what thought


I don't think you "get" trial by jury. You realize that they do not in fact decide what reality is, right? Or even right vs wrong? Given the evidence that existed and the absurdly broad statute for "self defense" in Florida, it seems like Zimmerman SHOULD have been found not guilty. That doesn't mean it's just, or right. It's just legal.

Explain this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

(CBS News) JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - A Florida woman who fired warning shots against her allegedly abusive husband has been sentenced to 20 years in prison.

Marissa Alexander of Jacksonville had said the state's "Stand Your Ground" law should apply to her because she was defending herself against her allegedly abusive husband when she fired warning shots inside her home in August 2010. She told police it was to escape a brutal beating by her husband, against whom she had already taken out a protective order.

CBS Affiliate WETV reports that Circuit Court Judge James Daniel handed down the sentence Friday.

Under Florida's mandatory minimum sentencing requirements Alexander couldn't receive a lesser sentence, even though she has never been in trouble with the law before. Judge Daniel said the law did not allow for extenuating or mitigating circumstances to reduce the sentence below the 20-year minimum.

"I really was crying in there," Marissa Alexander's 11-year-old daughter told WETV. "I didn't want to cry in court, but I just really feel hurt. I don't think this should have been happening."

Alexander was convicted of attempted murder after she rejected a plea deal for a three-year prison sentence. She said she did not believe she did anything wrong.

So apparently in Florida if you shoot to warn, you're an almost murderer and deserve jail time. If you shoot to kill you're "standing your ground" and a hero.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
I blame marijuana and skittles combination.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
HiDesertDJ writes:

"So apparently in Florida if you shoot to warn, you're an almost murderer and deserve jail time. If you shoot to kill you're "standing your ground" and a hero."


Not in her case ( look it up, check the details, and you'll see ). Marissa Alexander left the house, went to her vehicle, got a gun, and then came back before shooting the place up. If she had killed her old man, she'd be up on FIRST DEGREE MURDER charges.

*warning shots* = assault with a deadly weapon.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
Funny cuz steps like warning shots and non lethal rounds prove to law enforcement that you are defending yourself, not intending to murder. But sure Ronny, take the gun nuts advice
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
IF TM was your son in your neighborhood it would be impossible to justify why he was killed. When they do a review of the GZ's training and qualifications who ever hired him is probably going to get sued. and it isn't going to help that GZ was into MM arts.

To assume that GZ is OK because he is not guilty forgets that he probably feels guilty for causing this whole thing. He is going to have to live his whole life knowing he killed an innocent kid because he is an idiot. He hasn't really gotten away with anything; there is no escaping it.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
I seriously doubt he gives a sh#t. Shooting and then getting off is a neighborhood watches wet dream. Expect rent a cops to get a lot more agro.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
The homeowner association was already sued and has settled.

They don't want screwups like GZ around. It costs them money big time.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
Ron responded
ANY and ALL CCW classes will TELL YOU "warning shots" should NEVER exist. period.


Scared to actually respond authentically, eh? It's ok. Most of us can accurately guess your answer.


Chaz replied
Not in her case ( look it up, check the details, and you'll see ). Marissa Alexander left the house, went to her vehicle, got a gun, and then came back before shooting the place up. If she had killed her old man, she'd be up on FIRST DEGREE MURDER charges.

Thanks for clarifying. So if you are threatened in your own house by a man that you have a restraining order against and he won't leave and you go and get your gun and try to scare him off you're an attempted murderer but if you stalk someone with a gun already on your person, get out of the car when authorities tell you not to, follow them down a public road and then find yourself in a fistfight with them you are "protecting yourself."

Man that sh#t is so much clearer now. Aren't women like her EXACTLY the example that gun nuts bring up all the time? The woman with an abusive mate who needs an AR-15 to defend herself?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
As an aside there is no doubt Zimmerman would have been given 20 years for murder 2 or manslaughter in a 3 week trial, if his trial had been moved to Canada.

That's interesting. So someone who is defending himself would get 20 years, but a deranged serial murderer rapist (whose victims were teenaged girls who were videotaped as they were raped and tortured) gets 12 years in prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka#Prison

Great justice system you got there, we're so jealous!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
The point is she escaped the house and could have kept on going. She went back in guns blazing.

Exactly the kind of "protect your castle" crap the "this is a glock neighborhood, we don't call 911" camp crows about all the time.

(Also, exactly what Zimmerman could have done.)


patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
Blah, that's a .messed up story! Body parts in cement blocks, but she has 3 kids now? !
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:49pm PT


gun know-nothings


Bruce Lee was killed by a blank round.



Actually, it was his son, Brandon Lee.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Is anyone changing anyone's mind here?
Tready

Trad climber
Quito
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
This stand your ground business is batshitcrazy. In theory (always fun to do), Martin coulda pulled a gun, killed his attacker, and then HE'D have been a hero!

*head explodes*

I'm still confused over why Zimmerman was fearing for his life; doesn't seem like his injuries were that severe.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
The one thing that both the Zimmerman and Alexander cases have in common is a a lazy and ignorant press interested in only what sells.

You have to dig deep into the Alexander story to find this

Alexander was also charged with domestic battery four months after the shooting in another assault on Gray, which many said indicated little remorse over the first incident. She pleaded no contest and was sentenced to time served.

I'm still confused over why Zimmerman was fearing for his life;

How a bout if someone sits on your chest and pummels the crap out of you?



blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
BlahBlah,

There was just as much outrage in Canada about Carla Homolka getting a deal as there was about OJ being aquitted in the USA. We could mutually pick away at who has the worst cops, lawyers and judiciary until Jay-sus returns.

Yeah, I was just busting your balls, I'd say "joking," but there's nothing funny about these sick miscarriages of justice; I'm sure they happen the world over to some extent. Zimm wasn't a miscarriage IMO, but as other's have noted on this thread, the type of thing that's bound to happen when you have easily available concealed carry permits, generous self defense laws, and a beyond-a-reasonable doubt burden of proof.
I'm in favor of all those things individually, but when you put them all together, you're going to have some uncomfortable results.

I'd like some creative ideas--here's one I've had--to get a concealed carry permit, you have to waive your 5th Amendment right to remain silent; you agree to a police interview in any shooting you're involved in, and your refusal could be used against you.
Probably wouldn't have changed anything here as Zimm did cooperate with police, but could be a start.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
You have to dig deep into the Alexander story to find this

Alexander was also charged with domestic battery four months after the shooting in another assault on Gray, which many said indicated little remorse over the first incident. She pleaded no contest and was sentenced to time served.

And Zimmerman was charged with assaulting a cop and beating his wife, but that doesn't seem to matter in his case.

If I was Martin's dad, I'd have real reason to be concerned for my life. This Zimmerman has already attacked and killed one member of his family.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
I'd like some creative ideas--here's one I've had--to get a concealed carry permit, you have to waive your 5th Amendment right to remain silent; you agree to a police interview in any shooting you're involved in, and your refusal could be used against you.
Probably wouldn't have changed anything here as Zimm did cooperate with police, but could be a start.

I think this is the most constructive comment so far, at least the poster is ignoring the hot-under-the-collar take, and brainstorming.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 16, 2013 - 12:11am PT
That's interesting. So someone who is defending themselves...

That's interesting. So someone who follows a 17 year old kid for NO LEGITIMATE REASON, gets out of their car with a gun convinced the kid is "up to no good or on drugs or something" based ONLY on appearances, and instigates a confrontation is defending themselves?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 16, 2013 - 01:19am PT
Things that make you go hmmmm?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6OuP-wiiQg

This is worth the few moments it takes to watch.
thebravecowboy

Social climber
Colorado Plateau
Jul 16, 2013 - 01:26am PT
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/stand-ground-case-raises-specter-racial-double-standard-article-1.1399073

double-standards based on race in the US, who'da thunk it?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 06:28am PT
TGT said
How a bout if someone sits on your chest and pummels the crap out of you?


Or when some creepy dude with a gun muttering to himself follows you down the road. Under Florida's law whoever wins a fight by shooting the other guy is legally defending themselves and the other guy is the assailant because there is nobody left to tell the story. The only difference is that had Martin shot Zimmerman, he probably would have been arrested immediately.


Tready

Trad climber
Quito
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:06am PT
The injuries I've seen reported don't look like they were life threatening at all. Not necessarily the type one gets from a fight to the death, more like the type you might get during a playground shoving match. What did Zimmerman have, a couple scrapes on the back of his head? How can you look at something like that and say it justifies murder?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:11am PT
Zimmerman is a little whiney girl, and the great state of Florida defends his right to kill the black man that beat his rent a cop a$$.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:35am PT
I'll be the first to admit that it likely happens less often, but white people have been seriously denied justice from time to time, however I can't seem to remember other white people taking to the street to destroy innocent people's property as a way to express anger.

The rioters last night were their own worst enemies.
That is not the way to procure a remedy to our social ills.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:43am PT
just read it:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2013/07/trayvon_martin_verdict_racism_hate_crimes_prosecution_and_other_overreactions.html
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Murder is apparently level in Florida
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:13am PT
however I can't seem to remember other white people taking to the street to destroy innocent people's property as a way to express anger.

You've got some memory loss?




Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:28am PT
Thats my point Gary.

It has been a while.


Time to grow up.

Even here in whitebread racist Utah the last lynching of a black man was 80 years ago.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Lots of whites amongst the very limited rioting as well. Seems like a good time for some to break a few windows, cut loose and run from cops.

A climber told me he went in to SF to participate in one a few years ago just for the thrill of it.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:35am PT
Thats my point Gary.

It has been a while.


Time to grow up.

Even here in whitebread racist Utah the last lynching of a black man was 80 years ago.

Wow, 80 years, impressive.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 16, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Gary,

maybe its just me, but those guys don't look politically motivated. Looks more like ethanol poisoning.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
Gary,

maybe its just me, but those guys don't look politically motivated. Looks more like ethanol poisoning.

So it's OK for white boys to rampage over a football game, but not for black kids to rampage over something that poses a direct threat to their lives?

One can be excused, but the other not?


BTW, I know the guy that started this one!
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jul 16, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
maybe its just me, but those guys don't look politically motivated. Looks more like ethanol poisoning.

It doesn't matter if it was ethanol poisoning, it's still a riot... I live in a town that has had three riots caused by white college kids( 99% males) creating mayhem & destroying property..

Did you also forget about the Seattle riots?....and any peaceful protest that has splinter groups that destroy property.. ................short memory.

Kent state...
Berkeley riots..

edit: riots are messed-up, no matter who starts them..being drunk and rioting is doubly messed-up....imo.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 16, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Gary,

Those guys flipping the car look to be way over-dressed for July.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jul 16, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
This thread morphed into slander and hate rather quickly.
The divisions shown here reflect society as a whole.

Are climbers different in this way?
Would you rather point fingers then do the work it takes to affect real change? The choice is yours.

Don't communicate civilly to one another.
Don't show respect and common courtesy when addressing each other.
Don't work at finding solutions.
Continue to rant and complain. It's easy.

or

Work at breaking down the walls that keep us apart.
Address the inherent problems with segregation.
Allow others to speak, and listen to constructive criticism of what you are sure is true.
Be tolerant and allow yourself to grow as a kind, strong and enlightened individual.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
Pud wrote: Work at breaking down the walls that keep us apart.
Address the inherent problems with segregation.
Allow others to speak, and listen to constructive criticism of what you are sure is true.
Be tolerant and allow yourself to grow as a kind, strong and enlightened individual.


Thought we did this in the 50's/60's, when you have a backward ass state like Florida making laws like "Stand your Ground" it set us back a long way.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 16, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
^^^^Word up Bob!
Rest of the developed world must look at this law and laugh, and say something like 'typical.'
Not that our justice system is anything to write home about-i.e. Karla Homolka- but this must have been designed by the alpha males in Florida who ruled the beaches in the 80s in Bugaboo glasses.

Isn't it, and I could be wrong, but Illegal for a black and white person to marry in Georgia?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Jesse asked
When you look at the stats they produce the cartoons out of (graphs), do they balance them for the actual fact that way more of certain kinds of crime are performed by certain groups?

You realize that when something is a % it is a proportion, right? Not a raw number?


Tready observed
The injuries I've seen reported don't look like they were life threatening at all.

You don't have to sustain life threatening injuries you just have to fear for your life which is what makes these broad kinds of self defense laws so dangerous. No small number of Americans "fear for their lives" just seeing a young hooded black man walking down the street, much less getting punched in the face by one. Zimmerman had already decided that Martin was "up to no good" before he even got out of his car, much less the moment he got into a physical confrontation with him. According to the SYG law, Martin didn't even have to punch Zimmerman for shooting him to be legal. All he had to do was turn around and start approaching Zimmerman in what could be BELIEVED to be an aggressive manner and *pop*. Dead kid. Free killer.


Toker Villain whined
Time to grow up.

Even here in whitebread racist Utah the last lynching of a black man was 80 years ago.

So you're saying that it's so old that someone could have watched the lynching and still be alive to tell the story about it? That doesn't seem that old.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Gerg...Florida is a disgrace...the 2000 election, the voter fraud, the Stand Your Ground law and so on.

Worth a look...http://www.gibbsmagazine.com/blacks_in_prisons.htm
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
http://www.mysanantonio.com/default/article/Jury-acquits-escort-shooter-4581027.php


Apparently you can shoot escorts in Texas now too. Man, the golden age of White Maledom is really coming back around.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
and My Three White Sons is rising fast on the classic rerun circuit


I long for the days when women knew their place and blacks were a credit to their race
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Does the president still want to say if he had a gay bashing son it would look like gay basher Trayvon?

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/11/stand_your_ground_law_helps_white_defendants_a_lot_more_than_black_ones/
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Isn't it, and I could be wrong, but Illegal for a black and white person to marry in Georgia?
You're wrong.
If you know so little about US law, perhaps you just keep your opinions to yourself, and try to learn something rather than propagate BS?
It is true that mixed race marriages were illegal in certain states for a long time, up until the civil rights movement of the 1950s-60s, but anyone who knows even the slightest bit about US law knows that these laws were found unconstitutional in the seminal case of Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967).
Google it and learn something, rather than writing stupid crap.
If you're just trolling, good job, you got me.

Bob D--same goes for you, you should really learn to STFU if you still thing SYG had much if anything to do with Zimmerman case--as has been widely reported in the media and noted on this site, it didn't. Just standard law of self defense, which is, as applied in Zimm's case, is essentially the same throughout the US.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
Nice link Jemarr...from a White Nationalist hate group. You are scum.
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
What a total 180 on looking at this tragedy.

Rachel Jeantel explained (to Piers) that because Martin was not a homosexual, he was troubled by the actions of Zimmerman: “For every boy or every man who’s not that kind of way,” she said, “seeing a grown man following them, would they be creeped out?”

From the furious assault that Trayvon unleased on George we have to
conclude he was very creeped out by the thought of a gay raping his
ass.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Does the president still want to say if he had a gay bashing son it would look like gay basher Trayvon?

why exactly do people who voted for Sarah Palin have such trouble accepting the fact that black children tend to look like their black fathers?

is this somehow a difficult concept to grasp?

and how is a simple observation by the President twisted by simple little minds into some kind of odd or negative thing?

oh yeah! now I get it!

let's see, Benghazi turned into a dud so we gotta make up some new BS about the President

maybe we can start a petition to throw Hawaii out of the union cause he was born there?

mother of god you fukers are dumber than third graders
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
"If you know so little about US law, perhaps you just keep your opinions to yourself, and try to learn something rather than propagate BS?"

I think the same thing every time you post. First year law student?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Blah...why don't you shut me up...you live in the Boulder area, so do I. Fecking as#@&%e.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
http://www.mysanantonio.com/default/article/Jury-acquits-escort-shooter-4581027.php


Apparently you can shoot escorts in Texas now too. Man, the golden age of White Maledom is really coming back around.

Holy chit!

Sometimes there are stories that are too horrifying to believe. This is one—but believe it.

In my home state of Texas, a man named Ezekiel Gilbert decided on Christmas Eve in 2009 that he was feeling randy. He checked Craigslist, found a listing for an escort, and—believing the service included sex—arranged for a meeting. The escort, 23-year-old Lenora Ivie Frago, showed up, and Gilbert paid her $150 for half an hour of time. Then, once the paid-for time had passed, Frago got up to leave. Gilbert was outraged: he had paid money! He thought the price included for-hire sex! He wanted his illegal sex!

Frago went outside where her driver, Christopher Perkins, was waiting. Gilbert came out and confronted Perkins, who told the enraged man that he had hired Frago for 30 minutes of her time, not sex, and that was what he had received. Perkins drove away, when suddenly Frago screamed, “He’s got a gun!”

Gilbert fired at the car four times. A bullet struck Frago at the base of the skull, paralyzing her. Months later, she died as the result of the shooting. Gilbert was charged with murder. He admitted that the basic facts I just recounted were true.

On Thursday, Gilbert was acquitted. The jury agreed with his argument that he was justified in shooting and killing Frago because she had stolen his property—as in, the $150 taken without providing him the sex he wanted. Never mind that Perkins—who was labeled as Frago’s pimp by the defense—testified in court that his escorts never promise sex. “If I found out you were having sex, you were fired. Period. End of discussion,” he said.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
"If you know so little about US law, perhaps you just keep your opinions to yourself, and try to learn something rather than propagate BS?"

I think the same thing every time you post. First year law student?
No. You?
Paralegal perhaps?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
Jemarr link/group...classic.


Founded:
1999
Location:
Washington, Conn.
Profiled Leadership:
Peter Brimelow
Ideology:
White Nationalist

Originally established in 1999 by the Center for American Unity, a Virginia-based nonprofit foundation started by English immigrant Peter Brimelow, VDARE.com is an anti-immigration hate website "dedicated to preserving our historical unity as Americans into the 21st Century." Now run by the VDARE Foundation, the site is a place where relatively intellectually inclined leaders of the anti-immigrant movement share their opinions. VDARE.com also regularly publishes articles by prominent white nationalists, race scientists and anti-Semites.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
2000
Following a November 7th ballot referendum, Alabama becomes the last state to officially legalize interracial marriage.

By November 2000, interracial marriage had been legal in every state for more than three decades thanks to the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Loving v. Virginia (1967) - but the Alabama State Constitution still contained an unenforceable ban in Section 102:
"The legislature shall never pass any law to authorise or legalise any marriage between any white person and a Negro or descendant of a Negro."
The Alabama State Legislature stubbornly clung to the old language as a symbolic statement of the state's views on interracial marriage; as recently as 1998, House leaders successfully killed attempts to remove Section 102.

When voters finally had the opportunity to remove the language, the outcome was surprisingly close: although 59% of voters supported removing the language, 41% favored keeping it. Interracial marriage remains controversial in the Deep South, where a 2011 poll found that a plurality of Mississippi Republicans still support anti-miscegenation laws.




I guess I was kinda wrong and kinda right. i don't want to spread anything in your 'free' country blahblah, you guys take care of that yourselves.
Sorry to bring up some bad blood apparently still in question in Alabanjo.
I fear your reply EEEEKS!
Thank god you can't cyber-shoot me with a cyber-glock...stand your ground EH
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
Would you rather point fingers then do the work it takes to affect real change? The choice is yours.

Don't communicate civilly to one another.
Don't show respect and common courtesy when addressing each other.
Don't work at finding solutions.
Continue to rant and complain. It's easy.

or

Work at breaking down the walls that keep us apart.
Address the inherent problems with segregation.
Allow others to speak, and listen to constructive criticism of what you are sure is true.
Be tolerant and allow yourself to grow as a kind, strong and enlightened individual.

pud,

Thanks for softly speaking to the real societal problem here. Sad to say, I don't think we want to improve; we want to win. That means we need to make someone else lose. Too bad the losers tend to be all of us.

John
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
As a kid in California in the early 70's, I remember my dad showing me the neighborhood covenant that came with our newly bought home that excluded blacks. Probably not enforceable then, but still a reminder of the way things were.
Tready

Trad climber
Quito
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
Heard something on a sports radio talk show (of all places) yesterday that I thought was pretty interesting. I can't recall it exactly, but it went along the lines of "saying race is THE factor in the Zimmerman case isn't fair, but saying race is A factor is definitely applicable." There was also this nugget from former NBA player John Ameci (might have spelled that wrong): "Obama is the exception, but Trayvon Martin is still the rule."
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
As a kid in California in the early 70's, I remember my dad showing me the neighborhood covenant that excluded blacks. Probably not enforceable then, but still a reminder of the way things were.

Monolith, those covenants have been unenforceable since the 1940's, but they were hardly applicable only to blacks. Here in Friendly Fresno, my ethnic group - Armenians - were excluded through similar racially restrictive covenants. My father-in-law was excluded from one of the local country clubs because of his ethnicity. I remember swimming with a friend there as a kid, who told me not to give my last name since technically I wasn't supposed to be there. Ironically, that club is now full of Armenians.

Focusing on our current imperfection tends to motivate us to desire change, but sometimes at the cost of a paralyzing despair. Focusing solely on how far we've come creates a danger of satisfaction with an unsatisfactory status quo. It's good to keep both in view.

John
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Not enforceable, but still a reminder, please keep the neighborhood white.

It was pretty shocking to me as a little kid, since everything I had read about racism concerned only the south.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Focusing on our current imperfection tends to motivate us to desire change, but sometimes at the cost of a paralyzing despair.

Ain't that the truth.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
We don't know what happened that night.

No one (except GZ) knows how the fight started or how it went down.

Anyone who's served on a jury knows convictions are tough to get.

I'm not surprised the GZ was acquitted, he is innocent until PROVEN guilty. There wasn't enough evidence to know.

GZ is culpable for pursuing TM (getting out of his car to look for street names in his neighborhood that has 3 streets is B.S.) and that will probably be addressed in a civil rights (again not enough evidence to convict IMO) or civil trial (I wouldn't be surprised if GZ loses).

The biggest thing I'm disappointed in is the juror who is talking. She made her mind up in the beginning and states with certainty things she can't know for sure. She was probably the foreman, and was going to go public with a book. So probably pushed the others to agree with her. The trial might have ended up the same way, but when I had jury duty I purposefully volunteered for the job of foreman to keep someone like that from running the show, so I could make sure everyone had a chance to speak and make their mind up on their own.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
You said you quit for other reasons before.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
John wrote: Thanks for softly speaking to the real societal problem here. Sad to say, I don't think we want to improve; we want to win. That means we need to make someone else lose. Too bad the losers tend to be all of us.


Civil dialogue has been going on for hundreds of years, laws have been created to protect minorities...seems like we are taking two steps backwards, one forward.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Bob, I guess I see it the opposite way: we're taking two steps forward and one step back. I think the fet states my personal view of this trial well: when accounts differ, prosecutors have difficulty obtaining convictions because they're stuck with the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. When the inevitable civil suit for wrongful death comes, with a standard of proof that is merely a preponderance of the evidence, I expect a different verdict.

I was mighty young, but I still remember both Brown v. Board of Education and Orville Faubus fighting desegregation in Little Rock. I simply cannot say with intellectual honesty that we remain the same society we were then. More importantly, I cannot say that riots, violence, or even shouting brought about what we've achieved by talking to, rather than at or about, each other.

John
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
John wrote: Bob, I guess I see it the opposite way: we're taking two steps forward and one step back.


I wonder if you would feel the same if your were Trayvon parents?

John wrote: I remember swimming with a friend there as a kid, who told me not to give my last name since technically I wasn't supposed to be there. Ironically, that club is now full of Armenians.


So all you had to do was changed/not tell your name to "fit in"...little different for a black person to change his color to "fit in".
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
I hope some justice comes out of the coming legal procedures. I'd hate to think we're setting a precedent that's its acceptable to murder non threatening, unarmed, people that annoy you, and have no consequences.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Riley wrote: Remarkable - now the poor dead kid is guilty of a hate crime too.



And accused by a white nationalist hate group. Some sick-minded people on this thread.

Great post Jay and I agree 100-percent. Trayvon was being stalked by the sick little cop-wanna-be.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
Bob,

I'm under no delusions that my situation in any way compared with what others faced who "looked different," whether blacks in the South (or, really anywhere in the US) or east Asians in the West. My point was simply that we've made progress, not that we've arrived.

I, for one, have grave difficulty with the idea that Martin's death was not a crime. At the very least, Zimmerman seems, to me, criminally negligent. Having been through the justice system, however, neither the Zimmerman verdict nor, for that matter, the O. J. Simpson murder trial verdict, surprised me. Most legal observers comments that I've read led me to believe the prosecution had no sure thing.

About 15 years ago, West Publishing Company, a leading legal publisher, had an ad showing a picture of an empty jury box. The caption: "Logic Has Its Limits." Despite what we say publicly about the jury system, most lawyers and judges mistrust juries' "reasoning." In fact, virtually the entire law of evidence rests on that mistrust because juries do some strange things, and the motivations are not always what they appear. And the fact remains that most of us, and certainly I, are speculating about a trial we didn't attend.

I do note, though, that you and I are talking, not shouting, about this. In doing so, it's pretty clear we share a common goal. It's also clear (at least to me) that we both think Trayvon Martin did nothing to deserve the treatment he received from Zimmerman even before the shots got fired. Our issue is what we need to change so this doesn't happen again, and to right what we see as a clear injustice. Would we realize that if we were shouting at each other?

John
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
It all comes down to......that which we will never know

the jury decided that they believe Zimmerman acted to defend his life

the state of Florida did not prove beyond reasonable doubt that he did not need to

wonder if Zimmerman got back the unfired rounds in addition to his gun....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
John we are not shouting because you actually know how to have an informed (mostly right leaning) dialogue.

This kid was being stalked by a sick little human being armed to kill. GZ version is all that was told.

He really got away with manslaughter.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
I am still astounded that the person that instigated the confrontation can claim "stand your ground".
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
He/GZ didn't invoke Stand Your Ground in the trial.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Trayvon's parents should have addressed his homophobia and this incident
would never have happened.

Yes, Rush explored that angle today on his show, very interesting.

He/GZ didn't invoke Stand Your Ground in the trial.

He also didn't invoke it before trial.
As has been explained many times, SYG had little if anything to do with this case, unless you want to concoct a theory that the local police did a crappy job because of their understanding of SYG.
Turns out local police did an exemplary job in their investigation and came to the legally correct conclusion.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
F*#k Jemarr you are such a lying whore.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Norton,
Here's a link that shows that the theory that Rush developed, hard to say.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/353564/rush-jeantel-shows-martin-may-have-been-gay-basher-will-allen

We don't have a lot to work with, but the notion that a 6', well-nourished guy thinks that someone who is approaching him is a gay rapist, well, that seems a little implausible to me, I don't know, draw your own conclusions.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Really the problem is that people are allowed to walk around with loaded firearms.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
blah blah,

does Zimmerman bear more responsibility than Martin for what happened?

of do you see it as Martin's homophobia fear the cracker was going to rape him, so he decided to take out Zimmerman first so he wouldn't get ass raped?

you and Rush see eye to eye on this sound and logical new theory?
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Isn't it, and I could be wrong, but Illegal for a black and white person to marry in Georgia?

And supposedly it is "Southerners" that are ignorant.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
blah blah,

does Zimmerman bear more responsibility than Martin for what happened?

of do you see it as Martin's homophobia fear the cracker was going to rape him, so he decided to take out Zimmerman first so he wouldn't get ass raped?

you and Rush see eye to eye on this sound and logical new theory?

Norton it's just a theory, it wasn't my theory and I didn't necessarily think a lot about it; just happened to be listening to Rush earlier while driving to lunch, thought it was slightly interesting and noticed someone mentioned it here.
I put the link to try to help you learn more about it if you were interested.
"No good deed goes unpunished."
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
the jury decided that they believe Zimmerman acted to defend his life

I would state that differently, Norton. The jury decided that the prosecution did not meet its burden of proof.

John
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Hey arson, 1500 posts since 4/30? Really?

Step away from the keyboard.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 16, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
OK, I was wrong. Ethanol fueled white people rioting is even stupider than black people burning down their own neighborhoods to protest injustice.


But,... not by a whole bunch.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
I would state that differently, Norton. The jury decided that the prosecution did not meet its burden of proof.

John

agreed
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 16, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
Who says there are no more heros.


Heroic teen saves Pennsylvania girl from kidnapper

By Stephen C. Webster
Monday, July 15, 2013 9:40 EDT



A heroic 15-year-old boy on a bicycle saved a 5-year-old Pennsylvania girl from a kidnapper over the weekend, becoming a community hero in the process.

Missing for nearly two-and-a-half-hours, authorities were only moments away from issuing an Amber Alert for the girl when she was returned, CNN reported Monday.

Speaking to a reporter with Lancaster Online on Saturday, 15-year-old Temar Boggs said he was helping move an elderly woman’s couch at a nearby apartment complex Thursday evening when someone approached asking if he’d seen a little girl.


After a short break, Boggs and a friend, Chris Garcia, walked outside again only to discover a swarm of police in the streets. They were all searching for 5-year-old Jocelyn Rojas, who was taken by a man while playing in her front yard just two hours earlier.

Boggs and Garcia hopped on bikes and began pedaling frantically. Suddenly, about a half-mile away from the apartment complex, Boggs spotted her in a dark red car being driven by white man, said to be approximately 50-70 years old.

The two boys followed the vehicle for about 15 minutes as the driver took a winding path through shady neighborhood streets before realizing the teens were onto him. That’s when the man reportedly pulled over at a stop light, pushed his young victim out of the car and sped away.

Boggs took the girl to the authorities right away, much to her parents’ relief. “I’m definitely grateful God was watching over her and brought her home,” the girl’s mother, Jaimee Smeal, told a local ABC News affiliate.

Police said at a press conference on Friday that the girl was assaulted during her ordeal, which allegedly began when the man offered to take her to get ice cream. The suspect remains at-large.

This video is from NBC affiliate WPTV, aired Monday, July 15, 2013.

But I am sure Jemarr and Manzanita man will tell us the little black boy reallly just wanted to steal the little girls Skittles. And that he should be lynched for toughing a white girl.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 16, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Speaking of "profiling" and "feeling threatened", can I just shoot to kill the next fat cat banker I see walking towards me? They have done so much more damage to the World than kids in hoodies that I feel they are a real threat to my safety and existence.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
rSin demanded
if zimmerman didnt envoke stand your grounds why the hell did everything but its title make it into the judges instructions to the jury!??!?!

I'm pretty sure this is because laws apply to you whether you want them to or not.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
"IF THE HEAD SPLIT, YOU MUST ACQUIT."

Hear hear!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
Philo writes:

"Speaking of "profiling" and "feeling threatened", can I just shoot to kill the next fat cat banker I see walking towards me?"


You'd have a good chance of getting off on an insanity plea.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
White people feigning outrage of the injustice of one black kid killed in FL is so hot right now.

Where is the the outrage in the 500 kids killed each year in Chicago or the thousands in Africa?

Didn't make the Boulder or NYT newspaper obviously.

You're all a bunch a muppets controlled by the media.

goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
Well i was thinking of you Jim when I did :}
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
Where is the the outrage in the 500 kids killed each year in Chicago or the thousands in Africa?

if only everyone there had guns none of those murders would have happened

same reason there were no killings in the old west, everyone had guns.....

Newtown would never had happened if those eight year olds had been armed

goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
same reason there were no killings in the old west

Just tell that to the Indians, er natives.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
Fixed:

"if only everyone there had fathers none of those murders would have happened"

Well, most of them anyway.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
You're all a bunch a muppets controlled by the media.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
Norton Ben cartwright would have killed em all
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
they need to spend the time having their rallies trying to find jobs and get off welfare.


yeah!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
White people feigning outrage of the injustice of one black kid killed in FL is so hot right now.

Where is the the outrage in the 500 kids killed each year in Chicago or the thousands in Africa?

Didn't make the Boulder or NYT newspaper obviously.

You're all a bunch a muppets controlled by the media.

If anyone had any question as to what denial looks like, here is this post.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
How so HDDJ?
Please elaborate with your explanation on how Trayvon's injustice is any more valid, less or more than the crimes committed in Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Africa?
Where is the denial? what do you not understand?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Please elaborate with your explanation on how Trayvon injustice is any less or more than the crimes committed in Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Africa?

Change subject. Insert strawman.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
No insert racism.
Are you new in town?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
well Manzanita,

why would you assume/conclude that the people who protested the jury's decision were unemployed and also on welfare?

links?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Let's arm all Neighborhood watch wannabes so they can shoot anyone that questions their non-authority/little man syndrome.

So sad any way you look at it
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
if a black had a job, he sure wouldnt take the day off for something so stupid.

yes, because blacks are smarter than whites

because when whites go to protests they are really just on break from their jobs

you see, because all people work the same hours, proof again that you had to be unemployed and on welfare to go to a protest!

I like the way you have things figured out, Manzita!

you related to Ron perhaps?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
Ron said
well,, not one word about the white beating victim that just died - a retaliation "for treyvon"... I guess that makes it all even now right?


I don't know. Did the perpetrator get off for self defense?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
So no point for you then.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
Um, ah, uh, I think ekat is trying to tell us something . . .


Go read a Trip Report!
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
i get reminded when i ask "why are they poor" im a communist...

Well, are you?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
"Stand your ground" had absolutely nothing to do with the Zimmerman case.

In the Alexander case she's a victim of "gun control" laws that mandate a minimum 20 year sentence with no discretion by the judge.
Tready

Trad climber
Quito
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
The same reason you seem to be focusing on this one case? And how does that make people racist? Please spell it out for us stupid folks.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:02am PT
The instigator of the final confrontation was not determined by the evidence. Only GZ knows. Knott surprising the jury was evenly split on the first vote.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:12am PT
You really need to think logically. First you decry the BS that is "Stand your Ground", then you defend a woman who had escaped from the harm her ex could do to her. She then went out to the car, returning with a gun and started shooting away.

She was free of danger even if it would occur in her own home. She decided to go back and shoot a gun off as a warning ?

She was free and away from harm initially. get it ?


Right, so how come Zimmerman is "not guilty" for running after the person he felt was threatening even though he had the ability to have run away? Zimmerman ran into the proverbial house. If that woman was Zimmerman, she would have called 911, went to her car, got back out with a gun and shot the guy dead and then gotten away scott free. Her only mistake was not killing him and saying she felt threatened in the process.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:28am PT
norton, im skeptical,but was your "yeah" sarcastic?

Nothing gets by you, does it?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:09am PT
If Zimmerman initiated the final physical confrontation, then he's liable for what happened. TM gets to stand his ground too, doing what it takes to end the threat. We just don't know who initiated the final physical confrontation, so this self-defense and fear for safety talk could apply to both and thus means nothing.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:32am PT

There are no sentimental/emotional laws about this sort of thing North of the border. Enter into a fist fight and end it with a gun in Canada ? You've assumed some problems pride can't address.

I'll take your word for it cuz it's sort of consistent with what I saw in Squamish when I've been there years ago--lots of redneck types looking to beat up out-of-towners, not really in a "fair fight," just get some of their buddies and jump a victim;
friend's girlfriend almost got raped on a different trip to Canada;
theft from vehicles and campsites beyond a typical American's ability to conceive, with never even the slightest interest shown in trying to apprehend the thieves (there is some of that in US, but it's more the exception than the rule);
weirdest damn ghetto I've ever seen off of Hastings St. in downtown Van.

Still I gotta admit, it's a nice place, but I don't think most Americans are too eager to trade our whacky legal system for yours. Remember that things like the Trayvon case is more of a media creation than any sort of reflection of a "typical" murder.
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:34am PT
A real fighter knows when to stand his ground and when to walk away.
John M

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:38am PT
You can meet their aggression equally, only. That's self defense.

How does a smaller weaker person meet a bigger stronger persons aggression equally? What happens if the other person gets in a lucky punch and you fear for your life because they are beating you senseless? Are you then allowed to pull out a weapon?

My question has nothing to do with the cases being discussed. Just a hypothetical.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:38am PT
manzanita man:
why do you focus ALL your energy on 1 black getting killed by a hispanic when 10,000 blacks were killed by other blacks in the 16 months since it happened? those 9,999 other blacks killed were not worth a mention in the news? that proves rasicm by ALL of you.GFYS.

probably because it's apples and oranges. People get killed all the time, white, black, hispanic, asian, you name it. This is a specific case, with specific law that draws attention.

The fact that other black violent deaths weren't reported or responded to as vehemently does not prove racism (and if you're going to throw that around you should learn how to spell it).

Think outside of your ill conceived box.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:10am PT
^^^^^

Attention rsin ^^^^

Before you make an even bigger fool of yourself!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Anybody hear Holder yesterday?

Somebody breaks into your home and you should only be permitted to stand your ground if you are unable to run away?

Really?

You should be obliged to abandon your life's earnings rather than resist?



What a putz!!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:34am PT
Ron, got a link to that? I haven't been able to find it.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:35am PT
Toker's making crap up again. Holder said nothing about the home.
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:36am PT
Eric holder is a total aszhole who should be fired.

He should never have been hired in the first place to begin with.

He's a terrorist to begin with.

Why do you people keep sh!theads like these in your govt?

Obummer only hires Israel terrorists to run the American govt. .....

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:38am PT
No link, watched him on the news.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 11:10am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^ crossburnertopo.com^^^^^^^
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 17, 2013 - 11:13am PT
do you see the problem yet?

Yes, you are a judgmental racist scum bag who hasn't been banned. yet.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
Anybody hear Holder yesterday?

Somebody breaks into your home and you should only be permitted to stand your ground if you are unable to run away?

Really?

You should be obliged to abandon your life's earnings rather than resist?



What a putz!!

Yes, Holder is especially a putz when one considers that there is no "duty to retreat" under federal law. If Holder isn't aware of that, he's incompetent. If he is aware of that, it's pretty disgusting that he's criticizing FL law for being the same as US law, but conveniently "forgetting" to mention it when he's trying to get people worked up.

For an explanation of the lack of duty to retreat under federal law, see Brown v. U.S., 256 U.S. 335 (1921) (opinion by J. Holmes, one of the most illustrious justices to have graced the SC).
The trial judge gave the following instruction, and the SC reversed, explaining that there is no duty to retreat:
"It is necessary to remember, in considering the question of self-defense, that the party assaulted is always under the obligation to retreat, so long as retreat is open to him, provided he can do so without subjecting himself to the danger of death or great bodily harm."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
You should be obliged to abandon your life's earnings rather than resist?

yes, I believe this is the general legal directive

in other words, you can "defend" you own life or the lives of others

but you cannot kill simply to defend property

so, if a guy broke into your home at night and you heard him and came out your bedroom with your handgun and saw him stealing your TV then no you cannot shoot him as your life was not in immediate or eminent danger

now, if the guy dropped the TV and advanced towards you with a knife or even without a weapon then you could shoot him dead and have a good case that you feared for you life

get the diference? this is what I was taught in CCL class
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
In America people just like to kill things, part of our great culture.
abrams

Sport climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Duty To Retreat was F'n irrelevant in Zimmerman's case because
-- pinned to the ground with Martin on top of him,
bashing his head on the concrete
    he was unable to retreat.

Bang!

Justified.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
that ISNT what the "Castle doctrine" says Norton..

duh, I was not referring to the Castle doctrine Ron

that "doctrine" is only in effect in specific states, Texas being one of the first

depends on what state you live in, Ron
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
It is sickening that so many white conservative males support a wannabe cop with a penis extension instigating a confrontation with a 17 year old kid based on NOTHING BUT APPEARANCE. The UNDENIABLE FACT is Zimmerman pursued an innocent kid and instigated a confrontation... something he NEVER would have done without his gun. Trayvon defended himself with his fists, the only thing he could do. Apparently that is punishable by death... with GZ the judge and executioner. But GZ defending himself with a gun against a 17 year old kid HE CONFRONTED is legitimate self-defense... as determined by a jury of 6 women.

You people are so fuked in the head.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
We wouldn't want to let facts get in the way now!

Florida stand your ground laws have helped minorities more than whites .


Black Floridians have made about a third of the state’s total “Stand Your Ground” claims in homicide cases, a rate nearly double the black percentage of Florida’s population. The majority of those claims have been successful, a success rate that exceeds that for Florida whites.


One hundred thirty three people in the state of Florida have used a “Stand Your Ground” defense. Of these claims, 73 were considered “justified” (55 percent), while 39 resulted in criminal convictions and 21 cases are still pending.

Forty four African Americans in the state of Florida have claimed a “Stand Your Ground” defense. Of these claims, 24 were considered “justified” (55 percent), while 11 resulted in convictions and nine cases are still pending.

Of the 76 white people who have used the defense, 40 were considered “justified” (less than 53 percent), while 25 were convicted and 11 cases are still pending.



http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/blacks-benefit-from-florida-stand-your-ground-law-at-disproportionate-rate/
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
Oh, yeah, the daily caller... the unfair and unbalanced version of Fux news... complete with NO details of the methods used for analysis or reference to the actual data used in the analysis... brilliant!

Founded by libertarian conservative political pundit Tucker Carlson and Neil Patel, former adviser to former Vice President Dick Cheney...
dirtbag

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
^^^^^^ lol ^^^^^^
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
That how TGT rolls...racist to core.

Like GZ these little wankers couldn't defend themsleves against a young black kid with a bag of candy.

Had to pull a gun...unbelievable. Both could have walk away from this encounter. Sadly the chicken ass with the gun who was getting his ass handed to him was the only one to walk away.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Only a fuking coward would go out of their way to instigate a confrontation based ONLY on appearances and then pull a gun in "self-defense." And only a bigoted idiot would defend such actions and shrug off the death of an innocent 17 year old as the price we have to pay to be safe.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Dr wrote: Only a fuking coward would go out of their way to instigate a confrontation and then pull a gun in "self-defense."


Which is why these wankers on this thread are defending him...like looking in mirror.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Is breaking someone's nose a reasonable response to being followed?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Chaz wrote: Is breaking someone's nose a reasonable response to being followed?


Is pulling a gun and killing a kid that you just stalked a reasonable response for getting your ass handed too you in an encounter that you provoke?

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
Jemarr=KKK

What a little fake/coward.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Racist cowards rejoicing because they got the verdict that they wanted.

GZ will get his...it just a matter of time.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Bob D'a writes:

"Is pulling a gun and killing a kid that you just stalked a reasonable response for getting your ass handed too you in an encounter that you provoke?"



I don't know, Bob.

I saw someone getting his head pounded on concrete - Trayvon style - once. It'll make you sick. I took extreme violent action to stop it, and it wasn't even my head being bashed.

I saw a guy get killed in a fist-fight once. It was said he died when his head hit the ground after being knocked cold on his feet. His head only hit concrete once.

I'll let the guy at the receiving end of a violent felony assault make the call as to how he defends himself.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Is breaking someone's nose a reasonable response to being followed?

Absolutely. If someone followed me at night for a few blocks and then got out of their car and ran to within punching distance without identifying themselves, you bet your ass I would clock them.

You know that bullshit "self-defense" you idiots use to defend GZ's execution of Trayvon? The one that goes something like...

"a person may justifiably use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of an unlawful threat, without an obligation to retreat first."

Why do you all pretend that only applies to people with guns?

Trayvon was FAR more justified in defending himself with his fists than GZ ever was. Trayvon never pursued or approached GZ.


GZ will get his...it just a matter of time.
Chaz

Yep.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Chaz...GZ wasn't getting his head bashed on concrete...he got an old fashion ass kicking when he stalked the wrong kid with a bag of candy trying to be a cop-wanna-be.

Funny how you guys feel that it was ok for GZ to defend himself but not the black kid. Really disgusting thought process you have going.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Martin had no way of avoiding Zimmermann short of violence? He couldn't out-run the fat slob?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Chaz wrote: Martin had no way of avoiding Zimmermann short of violence? He couldn't out-run the fat slob?


Goes both ways...way did GZ even confront the kid...race profiling!!!


You just want to believe it was the black kid fault...it is in your DNA.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
Martin had no way of avoiding Zimmermann short of violence? He couldn't out-run the fat slob?

"a person may justifiably use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of an unlawful threat, without an obligation to retreat first."

A far more appropriate question is: GZ couldn't have asked Trayvon questions from a distance? He had to rush him and get within striking distance, acting under the assumption that he was "up to no good or on drugs or something."

The thing all you mother fukers seem to forget is the simple FACT that his was a 17 year old kid was WALKING HOME, who was followed and confronted by a wannabe cop FOR NO LEGITIMATE REASON.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
The type of person who starts a violent fight when other options are available is the exact type of person who should be profiled, regardless of race.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
You are suggesting the profiling was justified based on what happened when Trayvon was confronted 5 min later? Despite absolutely NO evidence other than the color of Trayvon's skin and a hoodie? Stop playing the fuking village idiot Chaz.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
You are defending a lying sack of sh#t.


" A medical examiner who reviewed video and photographs of George Zimmerman's injuries suffered during his fatal confrontation with Trayvon Martin called the neighborhood watch captain's wounds "insignificant" and "non-life threatening."

Dr. Valerie Rao testified that Zimmerman was struck as few as three times by Martin during the fight that night. She also asserted his head may have only been slammed on the concrete a single time. Zimmerman, who faces second-degree murder charges for the death of the unarmed teenager, said Martin repeatedly slammed his head on the concrete.

"Are the injuries on the back of the defendant's head consistent with one strike against a concrete surface?" asked prosecutor John Guy

"Yes," Rao said.

"And why do you say that?" asked Guy

"Because if you hit the head one time, it is consistent with having gotten those two injuries at that one time," she testified.

Rao's testimony could contradict Zimmerman's assertion that he was involved in a potentially life-threatening struggle with the Florida teenager.

Catch up on all the details from the George Zimmerman murder trial.

Zimmerman, 29, claims he shot Martrin, 17, in self defense on Feb. 26, 2012 as Martin repeatedly banged his head against the pavement and reached for Zimmerman's gun.
Zimmerman Claimed Trayvon Martin Said, 'You Are Going to Die Tonight' Watch Video
George Zimmerman Witness Describes 'MMA Style' Fight Watch Video
Zimmerman Neighbor Heard 'Yells for Help' Watch Video

"If you look at the injuries they are so minor they are not consistent with grave force," Rao said. "If somebody's head is banged with grave force I would expect a lot of injuries. I don't see that."
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
If Zimmermann had waited for "grave force" before defending himself, he'd be dead. That's what "grave" means.

I don't think Zimmermann's a saint. I think he's an idiot. A street-legal idiot, but still an idiot.

Everything he did leading up to what happened is the exact opposite of what I would have done.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Chaz, it is seriously revolting to hear you question Trayvon, a 17 year old kid who was DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG, defending himself when approached by a strange man.

Why are you NOT asking "couldn't GZ have stayed back and asked Trayvon to identify himself? Or waited for the cops? Why did GZ initiate a physical confrontation based on NOTHING BUT APPEARANCES?"

Do you think we should have laws that not only allow GZ to inflict vigilante justice based solely on appearances, but actually encourage it?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
Trayvon couldn't have simply avoided Zimmermann by jogging off? A young, fit guy couldn't out-run a fat slob?

When I was Trayvon's age, I out-ran cops whenever I felt like running. The cops were all in way better shape than Zimmermann.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
GZ couldn't have just asked Trayvon what he was doing, without approaching to within striking distance?

You are asking the wrong questions you fool. GZ was the instigator, TM (a kid) was MINDING HIS OWN FUKING BUSINESS and walking home. GZ was armed. GZ rolled up on TM, to within striking distance, saying nothing more than "what you doing around here?"

And you have the audacity to question TM popping him? You clearly watch too much Fux News or read so much of that DailyCaller bullsh#t. You done made yourself retarded.


I out-ran cops whenever I felt like running

Yep, you are a genius. So a man with a gun should stand his ground, but a black teen minding his own business should run whenever someone approaches him? You racist fukheads would love that, wouldn't you?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Do YOU routinely pop people who get within striking distance, when you don't like the tone of the conversation?

If you have the choice to leave, then any violence you start is unnecessary.

Never start a fight when you can avoid it. The guy you're fighting, he gets a vote, too, as to how the fight ends.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
If someone followed me for blocks and then came straight at me without identifying themselves and saying only "what are you doing around here" in a hostile tone...

I would most definitely feel justified in using force in self-defense if I felt there was a reasonable belief of an unlawful threat. If I could get away, sure I'd try. But clearly GZ rolled up on Trayvon pretty fast. You do realize GZ said "sh#t, he's running." So clearly Trayvon ran to where he thought he was fairly safe... until GZ came around the building and approached to within striking distance.

Sickening that you don't think Trayvon was justified in using force.
saghi

Trad climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
None of you have any clue whether there was racial profiling involved. Why do you present it as fact?
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Zimmerman should have received punishment/jail time.

I fault our president and the media for making it a race issue and the prosecutors for overreaching. Another example of politics overreaching and invading a space in which they have no business being in.

Our media and president are responsible for Zimmerman walking. Sucks but it is true. if this case was prosecuted out of the media spotlight, Zimmerman would have received jail time.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
The only thing GZ saw that led him to the conclusion that Trayvon was "up to no good or on drugs or something" was his clothing and his skin color. GZ was 100% unprovoked, he had absolutely no legitimate reason for instigating the confrontation, and an innocent 17 year old kid is dead as a result. Yet you all support his right to do what he did?

You sick fuks support someone instigating a confrontation, shooting an innocent teenager, and then claiming self-defense... but you question said teenager's actions when an unidentified man follows them for blocks, approaches them to within striking distance, and they feel the need to defend themselves?

You are revolting human beings.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Dr Christ states that Martin started the fight?

I did? Yeah, keep twisting it you dipsh#t.

a person may justifiably use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of an unlawful threat, without an obligation to retreat first.

In the minds of all but the sickest fukheads, a 17 year old being followed and then confronted by an unidentified man is reasonable belief of an unlawful threat.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
"The Judge was considerate enough to explain to him that taking exception with a comment and being within striking distance, didn't give him legal cause to "Pop" the guy. Fortunately a conviction for Assault, a fine , and anger counseling seems to have impressed on him that word's alone don't give you the right to physical "self defense"


GZ was trying to detained with force, Holding him physically...I would have punch the as#@&%e too.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Dr Christ states that Martin started the fight?

he did?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
I would have punch the as#@&%e too.

You sound like a real bright guy--how well did punching work for Trayvon?
Maybe some of you should rethink your professed self-defense strategy of punching someone just because he approaches and asks you what you're doing (sort of a strange question for a rapist or whatever to ask).
Or not, world may be a better place with fewer violent idiots.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
Bob D'a writes:

"GZ was trying to detained with force, Holding him physically..."



Who testified to that at trial? Any of the witnesses? Do you know something the Prosecution doesn't?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Blah wrote: Maybe some of you should rethink your professed self-defense strategy of punching someone just because he approaches and asks you what you're doing (sort of a strange question for a rapist or whatever to ask).

You can't read, can you?

He stalked and then grab the kid trying to detained him for no reason, it just wasn't because he asked him what he was doing.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Bob D'a writes:

"He stalked and then grab the kid trying to detained him"



Was that mentioned at trial? Witnesses testify to that?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but this is the first I've heard of that.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:49pm PT

He stalked and then grab the kid trying to detained him, it just wasn't because he asked him what he was doing.

If that's what happened, why didn't Florida at least charge Zimm with misdemeanor battery or false imprisonment or whatever the appropriate criminal charge is?
I thought we were talking about the actual Zimm case, not the Bizarro-world version you've invented.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
The real life facts of the case are that Zimmerman killed the only real witness allowing him to essentially tell whatever story best suited his defense. He may be telling the 100% god's honest truth...we'll never know.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
Until this thread appeared I had no idea there were so many KKK types here.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
So was Trayvon using the 'Stand Your Ground' law then when he fought this Zipperhead guy?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:09pm PT

I wonder if everyone would feel the same had the plaintiff been another human being--like a woman, instead of what looks to be a large, hispanic male who had a very short haircut.

Justice and the application of the law is supposed to be blind.



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
So where did mono go?

He said I'm making stuff up again,.. when was the first time.


Seriously, Holder was on the news yesterday saying that "stand your ground" laws do more harm than good, and that people always have a duty to retreat.

Putz!


Yeah, if somebody is stealing a tv I'm not gonna bust a cap in his ass, but there comes a point at which one is justified in saying "your taking that over my dead body!" or do all you guys think that armored car drivers shouldn't be strapped?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
I read that to say the two got within striking distance, Zimmerman questioned Martin and Martin Popped him? I could have missed the part where Zimmerman "popped" Martin first?

Yes, you (intentionally) misunderstood that Trayvon punched GZ based solely on GZ's approaching and questioning him. GZ stalked Trayvon for blocks and instigated the confrontation.

GZ gave wildly conflicting accounts of what happened; one on Feb 26th that painted Trayvon as an aggressive attacker lurking in the shadows and one during the trial that conforms to Rachel Jeantel's account of the phone conversation.

Fact remains, GZ instigated a confrontation, something he never would have done without a gun, and an innocent 17 year old kid is dead as a result. And conservative white males who love their penis extensions more than they love their bigotry rush to defend a proven liar.


I wonder if everyone would feel the same had the plaintiff been another human being--like a woman, instead of what looks to be a large, hispanic male who had a very short haircut.

I wonder if the murder victim would receive as much disrespect and character attacks if they had been a woman. Maybe a 17 year old white woman confronted, shot, and killed by a wannabe black cop with a gun.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
LOL, Toker, "stand your ground" is not Castle Doctrine which is centuries old. Every state has Castle Doctrine rules. "stand your ground" is an extension of Castle Doctrine to other areas beside home (and sometimes work, car).

Holder was not talking about the home. The speech was covered extensively, so post the quote about the home.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
From a witness: Rachel Jantel: "At one point during the call, she said she told him to run. Martin said no. She said the conversation turned to an all-star basketball game before Martin told her that the man was still following him.

Later, she said she heard Martin say, "Why are you following me for?' And then I heard a hard breathing man say, 'What are you doing around here.'"

Jeantel said she then heard a "bump" and a sound like "wet grass."

**"I was trying to say Trayvon, Trayvon, what's going on," Jeantel testified. "I started hearing a little of Trayvon saying 'Get off, get off.'"

**

The wanna be cop follows this kid for blocks, confront him and try to detain him for no reason and it the kid who was at fault. Amazing.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
Yeah, if somebody is stealing a tv I'm not gonna bust a cap in his ass, but there comes a point at which one is justified in saying "your taking that over my dead body!

the emotion of not wanting to be robbed is not a legitimate legal defense for Manslaughter

again, as you know, unless your state has a specific Castle Doctrine, you cannot shoot a burglar in your home UNLESS he escalates the situation to where you have reason to fear for your safety,
and note I said safety, not life

many have lost millions in civil suits over this, in addition to criminal prosecution for Manslaughter
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
Disrespecting the Presidents Homeland CZAR Janet Napolitano and the
see something say something code is exactly what all you Taryvon Zombies
are doing.

Better get your minds straight on this.

Zimmerman saw something and called the police. Unfortunately Mr Martin's
homophobia got the best of him and he attacked a righteous protector
of our neighborhoods, George Zimmerman, who was doing his best to
make our country a better place.

frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
I'm not sure and I can't prove it but I think the crime rate has gone WAY DOWN in that neighborhood and surounding areas..Maybe people on both sides will do more thinking before acting stupid..either way..Lessons learned..both the hard way...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
but there comes a point at which one is justified in saying "your taking that over my dead body!" or do all you guys think that armored car drivers shouldn't be strapped?

No there isn't that point. It's worrisome (but not surprising) that a gun nut such as yourself thinks it's ok to take a life to save property. I wonder how many other gun nuts feel like this.

Armored car drivers have guns because if a robber has a gun that's an implied threat to the life/safety of the guard and they have they right to defend themselves. If the robber is running away with the loot and the guard shoots him in the back the guard would be guilty.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
The wanna be cop follows this kid for blocks, confront him and try to detain him for no reason and it the kid who was at fault. Amazing.

Have any Zimmerman fans addressed this? If Zimmerman had gone his own way, Martin would be alive and Zimmerman wouldn't have to spend the rest of his life in hiding.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
So somebody loads a wheelbarrow with my guns and attempts to make off with them, but I can't shoot him because he is just pushing the wheelbarrow?

Perhaps I should wait until one of the guns is used to kill an innocent victim?




This is a great country. As Americans we enjoy a plethora of rights and privileges.
Ironic isn't it? A country that was born on Lexington Green by men that received an order from their commander;

"Stand your ground!"
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Have any Zimmerman fans addressed this?

Only a couple hundred times; would a couple hundred and one clear it up?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
Please do.
abrams

Sport climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Rampaging Trayvon Zombies should only be stopped with the standard method.

Everyone is missing the real gnar!

Trayvon tried to suffocate George Zimmerman over 'nothing'! Did Trayvon
have experience in quickly killing people?

We must wonder how was it that Trayvon could so easily slip into the
killer's mode over a minor dispute?

Where had Trayvon learned of this particular method of quick suffocation?
Did he see someone in real life murdered this way? Who did he use this
killing method on before? Actually not unthinkable as he applied the
fatal technique so naturally against Zimmerman.

Remember when the Boston Bombers where finally, thankfully brought down by
the law. Very soon, they became linked to past unsolved murders. We will
see if Trayvon can be linked to his own portfolio of mortal violence, as
of yet unexplained.



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
So somebody loads a wheelbarrow with my guns and attempts to make off with them, but I can't shoot him because he is just pushing the wheelbarrow?

correct

surprised you do not know this
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
trolling can be fun.


surprised you did not know this.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Gary,
I'm skeptical you're really looking for an answer, because it has been addressed many times. But I'll try once more, what the hell.
Few if anyone on this thread really supports Zimm; I'm not much of a Zimm man or a Zimm fan myself. Of course if he wouldn't have followed TM, TM would be alive and Zimm wouldn't be in the mess he's in.
But doing something most of us regard as foolish isn't the same thing as committing a crime, certainly not a felony.

Zimm did have a right to follow TM, approach him, and ask him what he was doing (and even if you don't agree with me on this point, it doesn't really matter, Zimm didn't lose his right to self defense regardless).
If TM attacked Zimm, Zimm had the right to defend himself (read the jury instructions if you really want the law that the jury was supposed to apply; don't accept my or anyone else's characterization).
Conjecture that Zimm tried to physically detain TM or initiated the physical confrontation is just that--we don't really know what happened, other than it seems there was a very short conversation between the two of the nature of "Why are you following me" / "What are you doing here."

Yes, we don't know what happened in large part b/c Zimm shot TM, and yes, that may seem sort of unfair, but that's the legal system we have, suck it up and deal with it, stop whining! If you think a law should be changed, write a letter to your representative or whatever.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
trolling is easy when it's not a stretch for your persona...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
well toker

then you are trolling all the time, given the consistency of your outlook
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Yes, we don't know what happened in large part b/c Zimm shot TM, and yes, that may seem sort of unfair, but that's the legal system we have, suck it up and deal with it, stop whining! If you think a law should be changed, write a letter to your representative or whatever.

As I've said all along we don't know what happened and for criminal cases the burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt", so it's not surprising GZ was acquitted. However there are were inconsistencies and what I consider far fetched claims in GZ's story so to many people they believe he got off with manslaughter at least. Complaining about that is not whining.

However is a civil case it the burden of proof is "Preponderance of evidence" so much more likely GZ will lose that case. Just like OJ.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
Florida's SYG law precludes civil suits.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
blah, thanks for the reply. Most of the Zimmerman defenders on this thread are racists and I find it hard to get very far into their diatribes.

My future son-in-law feels the same as you. Since Zimmerman has lied extensively in the past and has a history of violence, I find it hard to accept his version of events.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
However is a civil case it the burden of proof is "Preponderance of evidence" so much more likely GZ will lose that case.

True, and TM's family would have another advantage in that they wouldn't need to prove that Zimm was guilty of a crime; mere negligence would suffice.
But TM's family would have some "skin in the game"--if Zimm wins the civil suit, he's entitled to attorneys' fees, which would be hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more! A civil suit may in fact make Zimm and/or his attorneys a very wealthy man. (Zimm may reap a financial windfall regardless with sales of book rights, speaking tours, etc.)

blah, thanks for the reply.
Gary, sure. I've posted a lot on this thread as I think it's an interesting case; unfortunately the usual blowhards kind of lower the level of discourse.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
Zimm did have a right to follow TM, approach him, and ask him what he was doing (and even if you don't agree with me on this point, it doesn't really matter, Zimm didn't lose his right to self defense regardless).
If TM attacked Zimm, Zimm had the right to defend himself (read the jury instructions if you really want the law that the jury was supposed to apply; don't accept my or anyone else's characterization).
Conjecture that Zimm tried to physically detain TM or initiated the physical confrontation is just that--we don't really know what happened, other than it seems there was a very short conversation between the two of the nature of "Why are you following me" / "What are you doing here."



Blahblah,

Why do we employ police departments if self-assertive, overbearing laymen have sanction to confront youths on ground they have a right to be on and not in the obvious commission of a crime?

...police with their firearm IN SIGHT so an annoyed victim can weigh the consequences of physical resistance.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
So people with CCWs should carry openly so that potential muggers can weigh their options.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Um, Ron, in this case the potential mugger was the one with the gun, there's the rub.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
"Most of the Zimmerman defenders on this thread are racists and I find it hard to get very far into their diatribes."

That's funny, because from what I'm reading most "racists" here would agree with Blah. You guys are the ones insisting there are racists on here no matter what. I don't know anyone on here that doesn't think Zimmerman made a bad choice. You guys keep insisting he did it because the kid was black, as if the kid would have been white/hispanic and looking suspicious he would not have done the same thing.

Blah is apparently a racist to Dr Christ, Bob, etc.. but not you, I wonder why?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
So people with CCWs should carry openly so that potential muggers can weigh their options.

nice troll!

I won't
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 17, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
"But TM's family would have some "skin in the game"--if Zimm wins the civil suit, he's entitled to attorneys' fees, which would be hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more! A civil suit may in fact make Zimm and/or his attorneys a very wealthy man"

There is no statute allowing attorneys' fees to be awarded to a prevailing defendant in a wrongful death action in Florida. But why let facts get in the way. Carry on...
dirtbag

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
The nuge is considering running for prez.


I'm sure bluey would volunteer for his campaign.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 17, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
gods, guns and rock n' roll and never served!
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 17, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
I guess rather than simply clarifying what you meant in your statement,it works to just start back editing and starts the insults.

Funny thing is I haven't "back edited" a word of what I posted. Which makes you either mistaken or a liar. If someone intentionally misconstrues what I say to fit their own views and accuses me of "back editing", I have no problem calling them on it. I call it like I see it... dipsh#t.

I was introduced to you several years ago at U.C.Davis... I guess all to often when alone, conversing on the internet anonymously, our real personality can often overcome decorum.

You know who I am. Pretty much everyone on this board who cares to find out knows who I am. I have no idea who you are. So who is conversing on the internet anonymously?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 17, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
Ted meditating, producing some of his best work

nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jul 17, 2013 - 07:21pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 17, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
I thought that the stand your ground law was not even an issue in the criminal trial? As I recall there has to be a hearing on the defense before a civil suit is barred.

Unlike the criminal case, Zimmerman will be compelled to talk in a civil case or be subjected to sanctions.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 17, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
Reading that Turd Nugget article made me sick. Reading the supportive comments by the knuckle dragging mouth breathers makes me pray that half this country gets nuked into never never land.

Oh how my Liberal pacifist ass would like to see Turd Nugget get the sh#t beat out of his poopy pants by a cadre of angry old women while he was on stage ranting his hate.


http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07/15/2300421/singer-attacked-trayvon-martin-dedication/

Legendary Soul Singer Violently Attacked For Song Dedication To Trayvon Martin
By Rebecca Leber on Jul 15, 2013 at 4:00 pm

Hours before George Zimmerman walked free in his second-degree murder trial, a white woman assaulted soul singer Lester Chambers for dedicating a song to Trayvon Martin. The woman identified as 43-year-old Dinalynn Andrews Potter jumped the stage, reportedly yelling “it’s all your fault,” right before she hit the 73-year-old singer.
A fellow musician Kurt Crowbar Kangas posted on Facebook that Chambers “went down hard” and the woman “was subdued by Police and taken away while the para-medics came and took him to a local Hospital.” He sustained an “8 [inch] scratch in the kidney area of his back and it’s starting to swell.”
Watch the attack (the woman jumps on to the stage at approximately 4:16):Chambers, once part of a legendary 1960s music group called The Chambers Brothers, prepared to dedicate a civil rights-era song titled “People Get Ready,” changing the lyrics from “people get ready, there’s a train a-coming” to “there’s change a-coming.”
The next morning, there were largely peaceful and emotional rallies throughout the country responding to the Zimmerman verdict, and not the race riots pundits had predicted. Meanwhile, Chambers suffered bruised ribs and nerve damage for making a public statement about the case.Chambers, once part of a legendary 1960s music group called The Chambers Brothers, prepared to dedicate a civil rights-era song titled “People Get Ready,” changing the lyrics from “people get ready, there’s a train a-coming” to “there’s change a-coming.”
The next morning, there were largely peaceful and emotional rallies throughout the country responding to the Zimmerman verdict, and not the race riots pundits had predicted. Meanwhile, Chambers suffered bruised ribs and nerve damage for making a public statement about the case.

Chambers, once part of a legendary 1960s music group called The Chambers Brothers, prepared to dedicate a civil rights-era song titled “People Get Ready,” changing the lyrics from “people get ready, there’s a train a-coming” to “there’s change a-coming.”
The next morning, there were largely peaceful and emotional rallies throughout the country responding to the Zimmerman verdict, and not the race riots pundits had predicted. Meanwhile, Chambers suffered bruised ribs and nerve damage for making a public statement about the ca
se.

Yea Doodie white trash power. No race riots just a dumb bitch cracker letting her hate beat up a gentle old Black man singing about Peace and Love.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 17, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
So somebody loads a wheelbarrow with my guns and attempts to make off with them, but I can't shoot him because he is just pushing the wheelbarrow?

Perhaps I should wait until one of the guns is used to kill an innocent victim?

THIS is why you get called a Gun Nut. There are of course exceptions, but within the limits of what you've described (no threat to your safety), no.

As for the second point, failing to stop him isn't where the negligence lies, it's in failing to secure those guns in the first place.

TE


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 17, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
Armed Intruder Who Shot Homeowner Argues ‘Stand Your Ground’ Defense
By Rebecca Leber on Jul 17, 2013 at 3:30 pm

While the country had its attention turned toward George Zimmerman’s trial, an armed intruder in South Carolina attempted to use the same legal defense that gained infamy in the early days of the Zimmerman case.
Gregg Isaac began his trial last week for a confessed home invasion in 2005, where he shot and killed Antonio Corbitt in front of an 8-year-old child. After the trial judge originally denied Isaac’s motion that he could use deadly force under the state’s version of Stand Your Ground law, the South Carolina Supreme Court agreed to halt the proceedings and hear the case to determine a procedural point.
The reason the Supreme Court will consider the case has to do with exactly when a judge should hold a hearing to determine whether the defendant is immune from going to trial and the defendant’s right to immediately appeal; it will not tackle the substance of the law, according to The State. If the Stand Your Ground hearing determines the shooter was protecting himself in a place he had a legal right to be, then the case never proceeds to a trial.
The state’s 2006 law is nearly identical to American Legislative Exchange Council model legislation that states a person not engaging in unlawful activity has no duty to retreat and “has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force.”
Isaac almost certainly would not win with this argument. He did not have a legal right to Corbitt’s apartment: He broke in with two other men, and when the resident looked like he “was going to pull a gun from his pants” Isaac shot him twice. Even though Isaac does not have a credible chance to walk free under Stand Your Ground, the South Carolina Supreme Court may decide he should get the hearing that was previously denied where his lawyer will repeat the argument. Once rejected, the case would move onto a murder trial.
While Isaac’s case goes too far, other Stand Your Ground defendants have succeeded on dubious legal claims authorized by the statute’s broadly permissive language. ProPublica has highlighted some of the most notable Stand Your Ground cases that have led to freedom from criminal prosecution: One man avoided prosecution for shooting two men he suspected burglarized a neighbor’s home, another killed a mentally disabled man who was unarmed, and yet another was let off for chasing a burglar for more than a block.
Most famously, Zimmerman originally claimed he had immunity from prosecution because Florida’s Stand Your Ground allowed him to pursue Trayvon Martin for looking suspicious. He dropped the claim, and argued self-defense instead when he went to trial, but the jury instructions contained Stand Your Ground language, and a juror admitted it still played a role in their decision to acquit him of all charges.

Empirical evidence also shows how the law perpetuates racial bias in the justice system: A white shooter who kills a black victim is 11 times more likely to walk free than a black shooter who kills a white victim.
On Tuesday, Attorney General Eric Holder spoke out against Stand Your Ground, saying, “it’s time to question laws that senselessly expand the concept of self-defense and sow dangerous conflict in our neighborhoods.”
dirtbag

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
Ted meditating, producing some of his best work

It could be a picture of him dodging the draft.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
Manzanita, you are a racist. A miserable, ignorant racist.

Don't like it? Tough sh#t, you Racist pig.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
"No Viet Cong ever called me nigger."
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
"norton , good on you for finding 1. i can find 10s of thousands of black on white crimes in the time it took you to find 1 white on black crime.


Slavery!!!
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
how can ted stand to be around his own awesomeness? this guy was too bad assed to go viet nam! he would have killed everything: hippies, viet cong, elephants, tigers, snakes, hungry ghosts, fuking everything!

and the marines are his blood brothers. what a hero
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
Why do we even give a flying f*#k about what a moron like Nugent thinks? Did I say think....Nugent's proclamations are brain stem in origin, not of a very high order.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
Because it's fun to make fun of him and his idiot sympathizers who post here.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
ted's going to run under a third party platform: the Brown Party, and not because he likes people of color, but because its what flows out of his mouth and ass when it comes time for action.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
A hundred years ago educated people subjected themselves to psychoanalysis sessions which proved conclusively that their fear of heights was caused by wanting to kill their fathers and rape their mothers. And if you didn't dabble in some amateurish psychoanalysis, the intellectual elites of New York or Chicago wouldn't even bother sneering in your direction.

These days racism is the new psychoanalysis. Educated people check their privilege and discover that they are the reincarnation of Simon Legree. They are horrified to find that they take it for granted that people in movies look like them and talk like them. They gasp as they realize that they actually manage to get through the day without thinking about race and weep in shame as they are told that black people are constantly thinking about race and their failure to do the same thing is a form of privilege that makes them no better than Jefferson Davis or Archie Bunker.

Black people don't actually spend all their time being racially conscious, much as factory workers in the 19th century didn't actually go around being class conscious all the time. That was just one of the things that Marxists successfully convinced the eagerly guilty elites of. About the only people who do spend all their time viewing everything through a toxic prism of race are MSNBC analysts, and like prostitutes and people who test dangerous cosmetics on rabbits; they only do it because they're paid to.

Our search for racism has become an inner spiritual search for the racist within. The new racism is an unawareness of racism, which says all that there is to say about the prevalence of this terrible threat. When the biggest issue with racism is that not enough people are constantly thinking about it, then the real problem is that there isn't a problem.

That candidly sums up the state of American racism, which is a problem searching for a problem. But that is different than the state of American race relations, which is characterized by suspicion, irritation, guilt and occasional explosions carefully stirred up and set off by an entire field of professional provocateurs in academia and the media.

One of the greater fallacies of racism is to assume that it equates to race relations. It does not. The problem of racism involved the way that governments and people behaved toward each other. That's different than how people see each other. That form of racism, like the monsters that began pouring out of the brains of patients lying cushioned on the psychoanalyst's couch, is not something that we can or should be dealing with.


MisterE

Social climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
Well, that was pointless from Ron. More diarrhea entries for our local yammer mouth, I reckon.

There. I fixed it for you, Jebus.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
The Civil Rights Movement and all the horrible treatment of Blacks is with in my life time.


My Granparent's maid, Flo never knew how old she was or when her birthday was as she was born on a deep south slavers plantation. I loved that beautiful old women.


Manzanitass why don't you stiffen up your genitalia and just admit your hate.
The truth will set you free.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
Manazita man...you have no concept of history and what loss of life and suffering that has been imposed on some groups.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Ron explained
When we lived in Saugus my brothers attended schools that were predominantly black. They all were subject to having to fight and the only reason was thier skin color. When i moved to Carson from sparks in the early 70s, i had to start martial arts, due to the local Indians that seemed to like beating up on paler faces. I didnt look like i had 1/8 choctaw and cheap shots didnt allow for much explanation, so i learned to fight to survive basically. I was tired of being drop kicked in the junk by some ragin out of control local.

All that despite your calm, warm, understanding personality? Outrageous!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Well if I am the "Ron" to which you refer, I was quoting another "draft dodger" who, although after winning Olympic gold was initially called the Louisville Lip, but grew to be a virtually universally beloved icon of American culture.




Interesting that Florida was the first state in 1987 to legislate "shall issue" CCWs.
Castle Doctrine in 2005.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
Muhammad Ali is hardly a house negro.

Nita, for you:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 17, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
bob, slavery, thats all you can muster. something that nobody alive had anything to do with on either side. get over it already. is that the excuse the black community uses to commit crimes at a rate way, way higher than the rest of the population? how dumb is that. call me a racist or whatever else you want, i really dont care. the truth hurts.

Are you one of those foolish tw#ts who thinks all Canadians all live in igloos?
Are you one of those foolish tw#ts who thinks everyone loves America?
you really are one stupid f**k.
I can't believe some of these people are climbers, to have balls to go climb long dangerous routes but so stupid to life outside that activity, amazing really.
Are you one of those wimpy Americans who travel with Canadian flags on your backpack cause you know as well as we do once you step off your 'free' soil someone will kick your ass for just being an ignorant American?! hhhmmm.

How insulting this above comment is!
Ok forget slavery 'tard since we were all not around, fine, how about the Deep South in the past hundred years? I don't even live there and I know that history from high school. Thats right we all are aware of your filthy past.

Go join the army and go get shot for the sake of us all.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
Are you one of those foolish tw#ts who thinks all Canadians all live in igloos?

They don't? Who knew!
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
1/8 Indian, 7/8's idiot!
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:48am PT
Blah:
"But TM's family would have some "skin in the game"--if Zimm wins the civil suit, he's entitled to attorneys' fees, which would be hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more! A civil suit may in fact make Zimm and/or his attorneys a very wealthy man"

Name withheld:

There is no statute allowing attorneys' fees to be awarded to a prevailing defendant in a wrongful death action in Florida. But why let facts get in the way. Carry on...

Florida law:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

. . .

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:10am PT
what is a tw#ts? do they have those in the US?
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jul 18, 2013 - 02:38am PT
Gary, Thanks..cool version.

btw, I totally appreciate your posts on this thread.

Trayvon couldn't have simply avoided Zimmermann by jogging off? A young, fit guy couldn't out-run a fat slob?

chaz and Bharatago... go back & listen to the 911 tape, Trayvon did run and zimmerman was not a fat slob at the time of the shooting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 18, 2013 - 09:05am PT
Cause I see this as the primary part of the disease associated with this whole right wing phenomena . It is also what was exploited in Nazi Germany and caused most of their problems.

This feeling that other people are to blame for your life.
And the ability to be manipulated by the whole thing.,,

There's much truth to this statement. Germany had this Stabbed-in-the-back theory about WWI. They felt it was the Jews that had cost them the war. Racists have never been big on logic, though.

As crude as Hitler and Goebbels were, they still managed to create a class of scapegoats and rode that wave to the top. It feels good to blame someone for your problems, witness Rush Limbaugh and Femi-nazis and liberals.

I was listening to the videotaped testimony of one Holocaust survivor. His dad was the wise man in his Polish village. Before the war the inhabitants were worried about what was going on in Germany, what with the Anschluss and Sudetenland thing going on.

His dad told everybody not to worry. Germany was the most civilized nation in the history of mankind. Tops in art, music, philosophy and education.

It was a bad time to be a Polish Jew, though. Or a gypsy, or a leftist or a Jehovah's Witness, or be handicapped.

Dr. Leslie Clarke was sent to Bergen to try to help the survivors after liberation. Bergen-Belsen was not an extermination camp, mind you. He said it was the sort of place that if you arrived at the first of the month, you'd be happy to be dead by the end of the month. Horror and terror on an industrial scale.

After seeing Ohrdruf, Patton told his troops, after he finished vomiting from what he'd just seen inside a room, "I don't want you guys to take any f*#king prisoners."

When I read the posts of Manzanita Man, and yes Ron sometimes, I despair for humanity.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 10:31am PT
TGT posted
A hundred years ago educated people subjected themselves to psychoanalysis sessions which proved conclusively that their fear of heights was caused by wanting to kill their fathers and rape their mothers. And if you didn't dabble in some amateurish psychoanalysis, the intellectual elites of New York or Chicago wouldn't even bother sneering in your direction.

These days racism is the new psychoanalysis.

I thought denial was the new psychoanalysis.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 11:28am PT
It's not that I'm racist, it's just that I have this data that clearly shows brown people are bad. You not wanting to face the facts doesn't make me racist.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 18, 2013 - 11:32am PT


I just figured that this thread is going to remain a "Low information voter" thread wherein a bunch of idiots who didn't look at the facts the jury did, and refuse to read the trial transcripts, make up sh#t to argue over based on their own past perceptions and prejeduces.

Like the Easter Bunny. Doesn't exist, but maybe you all can still argue over it?

Have fun ya'll.





Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 11:34am PT
Cause I see this as the primary part of the disease associated with this whole right wing phenomena . It is also what was exploited in Nazi Germany and caused most of their problems.

This feeling that other people are to blame for your life.

Yup. And when an armed vigilante can follow a 17 year old kid assuming he is "up to no good or on drugs or something" based solely on appearance, instigate a confrontation, kill the kid, and have the right wing fuktards wholeheartedly defend the murder as "self-defense" while criticizing the unarmed kid for defending himself when his attacker aggressively approached him... we are sickeningly close to the Fourth Reich. Just need one of "them" in charge of the drones and they will "clean this country up." Maybe if Trayvon had the right symbol on his hoodie his life would have been spared... maybe just taken to a camp of like minded individuals.


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Godwin's Law invoked. Thread over.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
Dr F writes:

"Zimmerman just grabbed Trayvon clothes and started to try to see what he was hiding, knocked his phone out of his hands.
Trayvon cried for help, and then Zimmerman shot him because he wasn't going limp like he should..."



How come that didn't come up in court? Why didn't the D.A. produce any witnesses who could testify to that?

And, how did YOU find that out? ( or did you simply pull that out of your ass? )
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Race baiting by the mass media. So many have swallowed hook line and sinker. This is just one odball case. Not at all typical. It is being used as a distraction, or worse as a way to incite violence.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
couchmaster scoffed
I just figured that this thread is going to remain a "Low information voter" thread wherein a bunch of idiots who didn't look at the facts the jury did, and refuse to read the trial transcripts, make up sh#t to argue over based on their own past perceptions and prejeduces.

It's almost as if people are not outraged at the verdict but at the idea that what he did was legal.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
White rage is alive and well.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Dr F writes:

"Where is the evidence of a Fight?
There is None,
Please show me any..."



Did Zimmermann bloody his own nose? Did he bash his own head? Have you even been paying attention to any of this?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Jess wrote: Remember also that ZM and TM thought they knew self defense styles and techniques. When ZM found himself down and covered and being whailed on, he had only a split second or so to decide, the next moment could bring the focused blow that would end his direct participation in life. By then TM may have noticed the hard knot between his legs around the fat mans waist. He grabbed for it, maybe suddenly realizing how serious the episode suddenly seemed and was. Too late. Upwards shots through loose clothes and passing through his heart.


You are puppet...the wounds that GZ had do not reflect what he describe as what happened.

He is a fecking coward and liar.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
then mounting him and holding him down while continuing to strike him

Oh come on. That is just ONE of GZ's stories. First Trayvon emerged from the shadows saying something like you are going to die tonight... oh, but he was on the phone and never said anything like that... so GZ had to change his story.

Did Zimmermann bloody his own nose? Did he bash his own head?

Apparently Trayvon punched him dozens of times... but wait, there was no GZ blood on his cuffs. Trayvon was pounding GZ's head into the ground... but GZ was bald and there was no GZ DNA under Trayvon's fingernails. Trayvon briefly grabbed his gun... but wait, none of Trayvon's DNA was found on the gun... GZ has to change his story again.

Complete fabrication. Unfortunately, GZ killed the only other person that was there... in a confrontation 100% instigated by GZ.

At that point, Z. had not yet threatened serious force

And you know this how?

yet how could Z-man have retreated?

He didn't have to retreat. He didn't need to instigate the confrontation in the first place. He could have stayed in his car, like the 911 operator advised, instead of strapping on his penis extension and fuking an innocent kid.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Dirtbag ,i agree.
What if Zimmerman was African-American and Martin was white?
Game over Zim.

In a hurry to.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
And a court already has determined that he was acting in self defense,

Wrong again moran. A jury of 6 women, apparently GZ's peers, determined that.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
Dr Christ,

A witness testified Martin was on top of Zimmermann, beating on him. That's a felony assault ( at least here in California, I would imagine Florida is no different ), and you always have the right to use deadly force to defend yourself from a felony assault.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
Witnesses testified both versions of Z on top and TM on top at various times or couldn't tell.

Z's tiny wounds were hardly evidence of repeated bashing of his head on the sidewalk as the defense claims.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
Monolith writes:

"Z's tiny wounds were hardly evidence of repeated bashing of his head on the sidewalk as the defense claims."



Zimmermann need not suffer ANY wounds to legally exercise his right to defend himself. The wounds served to back up Zimmermann's explanation of events.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
They don't back up his version of repeated bashing of head against concrete.

Some testified Z was on top at some point.

Good's testimony complicates the picture for jurors after two other neighbors testified Thursday that they believed Zimmerman was on top

All we can determine, is there was reasonable doublt, so they had to aquit.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
Monolith writes:

"They don't back up his version of repeated bashing of head against concrete."



Does a concussion leave a mark? Can you see brain damage?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
Did he get a concussion diagnosis?

His doc cleared him for work. He was not brain injured. No concussion.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
Zimmerman perjured himself before the court. Why would you believe anything he said?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
7/16 an 8 yr old girl was shot and killed and two other children and their grandmother were shot and wounded in Oakland.. They were black i believe.

Were they followed by an overzealous wannabe cop who determined they were "up to no good or on drugs or something" based solely on skin color and the clothing they were wearing?

Zimmermann need not suffer ANY wounds to legally exercise his right to defend himself.

And what about Trayvon? What did he need to suffer before he exercised his right to defend himself?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Dr Christ,

Martin went beyond self defense when he hit a guy who was down.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
And yet Z was able to use his gun to kill TM while he was down.

Apparently, TM didn't use enough force.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
That's why you should NEVER fight when you can simply run off.

Martin compounded every one of Zimmermann's stupid decisions by fighting when he had other non-violent options.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
And Zimmerman went beyond self defense the second he got out of his car with his penis extension and instigated the confrontation.

Absolutely fuking absurdly nauseating that you think GZ can instigate the confrontation while carrying a gun and then kill the kid in "self-defense" but Trayvon can't throw punches when aggressively approached by a strange man who has been following him.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
TM did run at some point. Z pursued in his car.

An innocent 17 year old kid, force to make the right decision multiple times.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Ron, you forgot the HUGE public outrage that initiated Obama's comments and the attention of the feds.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
Monolith writes:

"He did run at some point. Z had a car."



From my experience, when I was Martin's age, running from cops - who usually had multiple cars - there's no better place to ditch someone in a car than an apartment complex.

That's if you actually want to ditch the guy in the car, which Martin obviously didn't.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
Yep, TM should have been tactically trained on how to deal with multiple scenarios. His fault, sux for him.

BTW, he did ditch him at one point. There was lost contact, before the final contact.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
Anytime there's not-black on black crime, there's outrage.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
bullshit ^

Anytime a person is followed, confronted, and killed by an overzealous vigilante based solely on appearance there is outrage.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
This is a tiny thing, a kid that got in over his head through being cocky.

Right... not an overzealous wannabe cop with a penis extension who instigated a confrontation with an innocent kid and then killed him when he started losing the fight he instigated?
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Ron, you forgot the HUGE public outrage that initiated Obama's comments and the attention of the feds.

Don't forget, Christ, that the HUGE public outrage was itself preceeded by a HUGE [nation wide] media blitz, lead by HLN news.

As soon as they stopped their 24/7 coverage of the Jodie Arias trial.

Open wide, here comes the airplane . . .
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
As soon as they stopped their 24/7 coverage of the Jodie Arias trial.

Who?

Do you see a PATTERN here?

Yes, I do. Easy access to guns for mentally unstable individuals and overzealous wannabe cops who need penis extensions leads to innocent people getting killed.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
The huge media coverage of the Arias trial stopped cuz there was an uncontroversial verdict. Like Duh.

Some media covers the initial SYG protests. More people learn about what happened. More protests, more coverage, more protests.

Yep, it's the media's fault.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
That's if you actually want to ditch the guy in the car, which Martin obviously didn't.

Martin was a courageous kid who, bare handed, took on an armed stalker to protect his neighbors, and you people mock him. Sick.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
Jodie Arias was convicted of murdering her boyfriend. HLN news whored out the whole 5 month long trial. It was the main topic on ALL of their programs for that entire time. As soon as it was over they switched to the same shameful microscopic coverage of rhe Zimmerman trial.

There was a time when not even cameras were allowed into the courtroom. They had these people who would do sketches.

There are good reasons we had rules like that. Such as what we see occuring now.

Oh, never mind, don't think for yourself, the media will let you know what you should concern yourself with. C'mon, it is really getting obvious what they are doing.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Jul 18, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
G. Zimmerman should be sued and held accountable for willfully damaging public infrastuctures and accessways with the back of his head.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Jul 18, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
??? Nothing??
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/trayvon-martin-and-the-irony-of-american-justice/277782/


The Atlantic, as always, with comprehensive and intelligent reporting on the issues surrounding this case.

A cop got fired for using Treyvon Martin's image for target practice. Classy.
There were smartphone games about shooting Treyvon. Didn't hear about that one.

This photo was circulated after the shooting claiming to be the image of Treyvon:



See the resemblance? (hopefully not)



Probably most importantly, they cover the simple fact (as I have posted here) that outrage is not over the fact that Zimmerman got off, but that him getting off ensures that this same sh#t will happen over and over and over.

In November, black youth Jordan Davis, a 17-year-old Jacksonville resident, was the only person murdered after Michael Dunn, 46, allegedly shot into the SUV Davis was inside several times after an argument about the volume of music playing.

According to Dunn's girlfriend, Rhonda Rouer, Dunn had three rum and cokes at a wedding reception. She felt secure enough for him to drive and thought that he was in a good mood. On the drive back to the hotel they were residing at, they made a pit stop at the convenience store where the murder occurred. At the Gate Station, Rouer said Dunn told her that he hated "thug music." Rouer then went inside the store to make purchases and heard several gunshots while she was still within the building.

Upon returning and seeing Dunn put his gun back into the glove compartment, Rouer asked why he had shot at the car playing music and Dunn claimed that he feared for his life and that "they threatened to kill me." The couple drove back to their hotel, and claim they did not realize anyone had died until the story appeared on the news the next day.

After killing Jordan Davis, Michael Dunn ordered a pizza.

"Shoot first ask questions later" is no longer a hyperbolic description of America. You can't drive with a BAC over .08, but feel free to shoot people.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 18, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
The Dunn case mentioned by HDDJ above.

Dunn's attorney: When all the evidence has been flushed out, I believe that it will be extremely clear that Mr. Dunn acted as any responsible firearm owner would have under the same circumstances.

Yep, any responsible gun owner would fire 8 or 9 times into a vehicle because he thought he saw a gun, then drive away and order pizza, forgetting he should have called the police.

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/jordan-davis-update-michael-dunn-charged-with-first-degree-murder-trial-scheduled-for-september-23
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 18, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
""Shoot first ask questions later" is no longer a hyperbolic description of America. You can't drive with a BAC over .08, but feel free to shoot people. "

That what these guys who defend GZ don't get.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
Riley excused
Godwin's law only applies to uneducated insults .


Godwin's Law is Godwin's Law and there is only one Godwin's Law:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html

You cannot pardon yourself from Godwin's Law. You cannot rationalize yourself away from Godwin's Law, for if you have invoked Godwin's Law you are beyond reason, irrational in your posting and in need of rescue.

The Republicans are not Nazis. They are blind in their rhetoric and have lost their way, but they are not Nazis. Step away from the keyboard.

The power of the post compels you!
The power of the post compels you!
The power of the post compels you!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:18am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 19, 2013 - 06:49am PT
Never having "slammed" anyone's head on concrete (or thankfully not having had it done to me) I'm very curious how Trayvon was able to grasp Mr Zimmerman's head with sufficient means to cause damage. Pictures of George soon after the incident indicate his hair was too short to clasp.

Would clutching by the ears be sufficient? His ears, in photos taken soon after the struggle show no evidence of rough handling or turbulent manipulation...

(And none of Mr Zimmerman's DNA was found under Trayvon's fingernails)

Contradicting George Zimmerman’s account that Trayvon Martin had slammed his head into the pavement "again and again", medical examiner Dr. Valerie Rao testified that Zimmerman’s head wounds could have come from a single blow. “To me, the word ‘slam’ implies great force,” ..."And this, the resultant injuries, are not great force.”







And Mr.Jonathan Good, a neighbor of George Zimmerman, says that although he saw a figure believed to be Trayvon Martin straddling George Zimmerman, he did not see Zimmerman’s head being slammed into the concrete.

Could the lacerations to the back of George's head been caused in a fall from a punch Trayvon dispensed? ...and the "head slamming" been a fiction GZ used to exploit the cuts ??

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 08:58am PT
Oooh owie boo boo. Does he need a bandaid or will a tissue do?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:21am PT
During the trial, a neighbor reported that he heard the ruckus and went to see what was going on. He sees Trayvon, on top of Zimmerman, totally beating Zimmermans ass. How did Zimmerman get a shot off from the ground with a dude on top of him whaling on him?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:57am PT
Mr Zimmerman claimed Trayvon was on his chest and pinning his shoulders down with his knees.

With George's shoulders pinned...and Trayvon's lower leg positioned along GZ's sides...I have difficulty seeing how he had mobility to reach the gun (Trayvon's leg being in the way), bring it up past Trayvon's knee and shoot him squarely in the chest.

Could George have fired the fatal shot after Trayvon let him up?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 11:44am PT
But as you have eloquently displayed the entire thing is a fabrication and a lie and doesn't make sense. Even the defense witness, who was Zimmerman's friend, changed his story and had to be prodded by the defense on what he saw.
We just know one thing - Zimmerman is a liar and the story doesn't add up.

I think Zimmerman grabbed him and the kid fought back.
Zimmerman is so stupid and has so little respect for life he pulled his gun and shot him.
A coward who wanted to use his new toy.

per riley's MO, he ASSumes everything without regard to fact. displays his laser like focus to know more than the jurists who sat there for weeks, while riley depends upon twisted news for his facts.

get a grip dude.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 11:51am PT
Don't look now Ron but Benghazigunnagitya.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
If I was Zimmerman, I'd be more worried about Martin's dad than the Panthers.

After a member of his family was attacked and killed by Zimmerman, Martin's dad must justifiably be in fear of his life. And in Florida, if you just feel you might be in danger, we know what can happen.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/187326-new-black-panther-partys-10000-zimmerman-bounty-was-from-last-year-viral-report-uses-it-as-source/

Looks like the Panther bounty news is a little old.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
Another republitard, ass licking

wrong again. best we can hope for in your case is your meds to stabilize your mental issues.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
I know this has been brought up before, but, the jury's choice was 1) guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, or 2) not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They had reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean Zimmerman is innocent.

All of the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here is kinda silly. Case is over. Time to learn from it and move on.

What we can learn-

1) Maybe Florida's stand your ground law goes too far. That's something for the people of FL to discuss and decide.

2) Don't fight in the dark with strangers unless there is absolutely no alternative.

Last, in my view, Zimmerman is an overzealous cop wannabe putz. But Martin's death was a Darwin event. I bet that kid could run like the wind. It would have been a much better choice, personally and evolutionarily, than fighting with a creepy weirdo in the dark.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
Dr F.,

The cops took those pictures, the night of the incident. You need to pay better attention to what's going on.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Simply google "zimmerman photos night of shooting".

I did. I found hundreds of links.

Are you sure you're a doctor?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
I bet that kid could run like the wind.

Martin was a hero, stepping up to protect his friends and neighbors from an armed intruder in the night. Who knows what Zimmerman would have done with that gun? He had a history of violence. he lied to the court. The dude is a sociopath, yet he walks by night among you. Feel safe?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Dr F.,

Your "link" comes back saying "Server Error in '/' Application" "The resource cannot be found"



HERE'S a resource that can actually be found:

http://www.wtsp.com/news/photo-gallery.aspx?storyid=255685

Note the photo captions: "Police Photo showing George Zimmer's appearance on the night of the Trayvon Martin shooting".

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
Martin was a hero, stepping up to protect his friends and neighbors from an armed intruder in the night.

What strange and distant planet do you live on?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
I believe he is coming from from the planet sarcasm.


OK Chazmeister I checked your link and still call BS on the "severity" of Zimmies owies.
Those are not serious booboos. My kids got worse bangs and bruises on the playground in elementary school and they kept playing. Lets get a reaction from a doctor or trauma specialist on how long they think those gaping head wounds bled till clotted. My guess is 5 minutes or less based on the dried blood flow. And yes I have some experience in the whole clot time factor. So lets see the MRI of Zimmie's brain. Let's see the evidence of a concussion. Surely there must be some evidence of major trauma if Zimmie was really getting beat down enough to claim his life was threatened.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
Don't give up so easy, Dr F. You were working very hard trying not to understand things. It'd be a shame for you to quit now.
Fluid

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
The photos in the link below are captioned:

"Police Photo showing George Zimmer's appearance on the night of the Trayvon Martin shooting." They are the same photos posted above.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/photo-gallery.aspx?storyid=255685

The one photo in the following link was taken by a police officer the night of the shooting, and shows the same clothes (it was presented by the defense, but they could hardly have staged the fact that it was taken that night by an officer).

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/03/15647937-defense-posts-george-zimmerman-photo-from-night-of-trayvon-martin-shooting?lite

There are indeed, many more sources.

Hitting a head against concrete would not create too much blood, mostly internal injury. These photos are certainly not an argument against such an event, but neither are they particularly an argument for it. The question for the jury was doubt, which seems entirely obvious.

[edit: didn't see it in time, but chaz posts the same link as above]
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Martin was a hero, stepping up to protect his friends and neighbors from an armed intruder in the night.


His friends weren't there. And as he was a guest visiting his father it's hard to say the other residents were his neighbors. Really if Martin lived there he'd probably already know the overzealous neighborhood watching GZ, and been able to say something like "hi George, how is your paranoia?" before ignoring him and walking on.

From what the news presents, TM was just a kid. Not all good or all bad but like most kids, and most of us, he had some of each. It's unfortunate he made a foolish, and fatal, choice that night. Such are the risks of youth.

Edit: Oh, Gary is from Sarcasm. That explains a lot. Thanks Philo.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Look in the Mirror Chazer.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
OK Chazmeister I checked your link and still call BS on the "severity" of Zimmies owies.
Those are not serious booboos. My kids got worse bangs and bruises on the playground in elementary school and they kept playing. Lets get a reaction from a doctor or trauma specialist on how long they think those gaping head wounds bled till clotted. My guess is 5 minutes or less based on the dried blood flow. And yes I have some experience in the whole clot time factor. So lets see the MRI of Zimmie's brain. Let's see the evidence of a concussion. Surely there must be some evidence of major trauma if Zimmie was really getting beat down enough to claim his life was threatened.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
I do understand what's going on
Zimmerman killed Trayvon in cold blood, and should be in jail for life.
That's the jist of all this.

As you are an arrogant partisan nitwit, of course you would think this.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
It's enough to back up Zimmermann's story. It's evidence of a felony assault. ( unless you think Zimmermann did it to himself, then you're the one with head problems )

I wouldn't want one mark like that on my head, and Zimmermann need not have waited for the first mark before legally fighting back. Look up self defense statutes. Do I need to google it for you too, like I did for Dr F.?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
Head wounds bleed copiously.
Let's see the evidence of Zimmie's "internal" bleeding.
Must have been a horrible amount of internal brain bleeding to swell that fat head so.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
It's not a felony assault to defend yourself, Chaz, and TM gets to stand his ground too.

No one knows who instigated the physical confrontation, except Zimmerman, a known lier to the court.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Yep, Zimmerman created the situation by pursuing and ignoring police advice. But the law seems to care only about the first physical contact.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
But the law seems to care only about the first physical contact.
That's why I will never take the first swing.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Chaz:
A person who reasonably believes that they are being threatened with imminent and otherwise unavoidable death or grave bodily harm may in that instant take the life of their attacker

Yet you and the rest of the conservative white males question a 17 year old defending himself against an armed man who followed him and instigated a confrontation. You even suggest Trayvon was at fault for punching his attacker, despite there clearly being reason to believe he was being threatened.

GZ gave up his right to self-defense when he got out of his car, pursued an innocent kid, and instigated the confrontation. Trayvon was entitled to defend himself AS SOON as he believed GZ was threatening him. But for some reason, no conservative white male seems capable of comprehending that.

the law seems to care only about the first physical contact.

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure you can defend yourself as soon as there is reason to believe you are being threatened with grave bodily harm. If someone was following me in their car, aggressively confronted me after I went out of my way to avoid them, did not identify themselves, and got in my face close enough that I could punch them, I would consider that reason to believe I was being threatened with gave bodily harm.

I like how some argue Trayvon had no right to punch GZ despite GZ instigating an up close and personal confrontation FOR NO LEGITIMATE REASON, yet see no problems with thinly veiled threats of violence like "I pray for your sake we never meet" based on words typed on a stupid internet forum.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
I watched your video link Manzanitass and it shows superficial and insignificant injuries.
Look how less horrible his fat head looks when they bring him into the station.

And he shows NO sign of the effects a concussion would cause.
But keep trying we know you can get it to fit.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Monolith writes:

"It's not a felony assault to defend yourself, Chaz, and TM gets to stand his ground too."

Weschrist writes:

"...a 17 year old defending himself..."



Once Martin was on top of Zimmermann, he was no longer defending himself. You don't get to hit a guy when he's down. If Martin had called it a day after breaking Zimmermann's nose, he'd either still be alive today, or Zimmermann would be locked up.

Can't beat a guy when he's down. That's no longer self defense ( look it up ). That's a felony ( at least here in California ). Martin over-played his hand by beating a guy when he was down, and it cost him his life.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
Nope, one can still shoot from the ground. Exactly as Z described. TM didn't use enough force to keep himself from being killed.

And as noted earlier, other witnesses had Z on top at some point.

It's a freeking fight, Chaz, your rules of top/bottom are hilarious.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
Once Martin was on top of Zimmermann, he was no longer defending himself. You don't get to hit a guy when he's down.

And which law are you referring to? Or are you just making sh#t up? Clearly Trayvon did not use enough force to defend against the danger. Your understanding of the laws is fuking pathetic.

You are familiar with the concept of proportionality? If Trayvon saw GZ's gun, as GZ claimed, Trayvon had every right to smash that fukheads brains all over the sidewalk.

The simple point you seem to be missing is, GZ was the one who initiated the confrontation. Is anyone really stupid enough to think "self-defense" applies to a confrontation they started? GZ was the one acting in a threatening manner. GZ wasn't defending sh#t when he got out of his car and confronted Trayvon... he was on offense. Trayvon first ran (which clearly got his pursuer amped up) and then stood his ground when he had no other option. Why is that so hard for you conservative white males to understand?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
If Trayvon saw GZ's gun, as GZ claimed, he had every right to smash that fukheads brains all over the sidewalk.

Attempting to do so was the Darwin move.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
Not if you are already in a fight.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Trayvon first ran and then stood his ground when he had no other option.
As would most of us except for those cowardly lions cheerleading for Zimmie the Black hunter.
Those Walter Middy panseys would no doubt roll over grease their own O-rings and plead "be gentle big boi".
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Darwin Award winner Trayvon Martin! Awarded posthumously for attacking an armed neighborhood watchman, at night, while stoned.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
A watchman who didn't identify himself as a watchman and having trace marijuana in your system is not 'stoned'.
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
plainclothes shoplifting security don't identify themselves either until the thief walks out with the loot.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Aren't all Darwin Awards awarded posthumously?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
You can bet they identify themselves when they confront their suspect.

Yer not very bright, areya?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
plainclothes shoplifting security don't identify themselves either until the thief walks out with the loot.

They don't confront the thief until they walk out with the loot either, idiot.

Another point YOU seem to be missing.... Trayvon had not committed any crime.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Weschrist writes:

"If Trayvon saw GZ's gun, as GZ claimed, Trayvon had every right to smash that fukheads brains all over the sidewalk."



But if he fails in that, he can be killed, and the killer gets to go home. And your family cries in court when the law is finally made clear to them. Is that a gamble worth taking? Nobody has to let someone smash his brains all over the sidewalk.

That's why fighting when you have the choice to leave is stupid beyond belief. You can get killed doing that. Martin should have simply ran off. He could have very easily ditched Zimmermann.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
The surviver gets to write the history.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Trayvon had not committed any crime.

He committed one crime. IMHO Martin is guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, of felony stupidity. Zimmerman too.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Martin should have simply ran off.

You realize he did run, right? Which is what prompted GZ to strap on his penis extension and confront him. I suppose you think "those as#@&%es" should just keep running and stay at home where they belong?

IMHO, Martin committed felony stupidity. Zimmerman too.

There is no such thing as felony stupidity, there is such a thing as murder. Martin is dead because of an overzealous wannabe cop who is now being celebrated as some kind of hero by the conservative white males who eagerly await their opportunity to follow in his footsteps. I'm sure some on this board load up and drive around the "bad parts" of town, just waiting to inflict justice.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
"You realize he did run, right?"


How the hell did Zimmermann catch him???

We're to believe a big fat sloppy pig like Zimmermann can run down a fit 17 year old? It didn't work like that when I was 17.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
GZ wasn't chasing him. GZ came around the building and got between Trayvon and the backdoor of his house, less than 70 yards away.

Like I said, you seem to think "those as#@&%es" should just keep running and stay where they belong.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
There is no such thing as felony stupidity.

Actually, there is. The legal term "negligence" means stupidity. We call criminal stupidity "manslaughter" often. Sometimes we even call it "second degree murder."

I personally have never heard it used to refer to the victim, though. I think we'd have a better, or at least more interesting, world if we applied the term to legislators.

John
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
I know this has been brought up before, but, the jury's choice was 1) guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, or 2) not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They had reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean Zimmerman is innocent.

All of the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here is kinda silly. Case is over. Time to learn from it and move on.

What we can learn-

1) Maybe Florida's stand your ground law goes too far. That's something for the people of FL to discuss and decide.

2) Don't fight in the dark with strangers unless there is absolutely no alternative.

Last, in my view, Zimmerman is an overzealous cop wannabe putz. But Martin's death was a Darwin event. I bet that kid could run like the wind. It would have been a much better choice, personally and evolutionarily, than fighting with a creepy weirdo in the dark.

dropline, i for one appreciate your common sense. unfortunately, your is the kind of reply that shut some of these idiots up and then they would have nothing to do all day long but stare in the mirror. talk about ugly.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
I stand corrected. Thanks JE.

But negligence isn't a crime by itself, is it? Doesn't it have to be associated with an ACTUAL crime? If it is, there are plenty of guilty parties here.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Philo yur RACIST against hispanics OBVIOUSLY!

Well now that's rich. Wingnut logic.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:14pm PT



Trayvon was found by police face down... with his forearms and hands under his body.

A crucial question is, How did Mr Zimmerman get out from underneath Trayvon Martin’s body without dislodging Trayvon's hands and arms?

According to George's testimony, Trayvon fell forward shortly after being shot. It would seem likely to me that Zimmerman would push Trayvon's body onto its side to escape. That positioning would cause the lowermost forearm to fall. from the chest.

But Trayvon's body was NOT found on its side...even if we assume the body rolled back to face down positioning...one arm should have been lower toward his waist or even free of the body..

Even in the unlikely event Mr Zimmerman wriggled and writhed from underneath the body...without pushing it on its side, the process would have forced the arm (on the side he exited) from under the chest.

Such face-down positioning with both arms under his upper torso...one could speculate he was shot from a kneeling (or standing) position, rather than while sitting on GZ's stomach/chest area.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
When I was 15, 16, and 17 I was pretty mischievous and in places and doing things I really shouldn't have been. No adult who tried to catch and confront me, including the popo, ever got within arms reach of my fleeting feet. And here I am, able to count my lucky stars.

I'm not saying TM was somewhere he wasn't supposed to be. He certainly didn't deserve to die. I'm just saying that both TM and GZ made really foolish choices that night, and unfortunately TM paid for his choice with his life.



Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
What we can learn-

1) Maybe Florida's stand your ground law goes too far. That's something for the people of FL to discuss and decide.

2) Don't fight in the dark with strangers unless there is absolutely no alternative.

But Martin's death was a Darwin event.

So you assume Trayvon had another choice and was not ambushed by GZ? And you are willing to disparage a dead KID based on that assumption? Trayvon did run, to within about 70 yards of his front door before he was confronted by GZ. From the testimony of Jeantel, Trayvon had about this much time to run once GZ was in his face:

'Why are you following me for?'
'What you doing around here?'


How many who blame Trayvon would also blame a woman for getting raped? Oh, right, most who blame Trayvon are conservative white males, so in their minds a woman who gets raped would have been asking for it.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
And if Zimmy did NOT have a gun Trayvon would still be alive. Limp dick cop boi would never had the balls to get out of his car with out his penis extension. He would have waited for the real police as he was told to do.



Character assassination is a long standing Republican art form.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
So you assume Trayvon had another choice and was not ambushed by GZ?


How many who blame Trayvon would also blame a woman for getting raped? Oh, right, most who blame Trayvon are conservative white males, so in their minds a woman who gets raped would have been asking for it.

I am assuming TM had the choice to run when confronted by Zimmerman. GZ didn't hold TM hostage by pointing a gun at him. There is no evidence to suggest GZ grabbed TM when TM didn't see him.

I'm not saying TM was asking for it. I'm not saying TM is to blame. I'm just saying choosing to stay instead of run was a foolish choice given the consequences.

And conflating any of this with rape is just sensationalism. Troll much?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
And conflating any of this with rape is just sensationalism.

Okay, fine. Say Trayvon was a white woman who was followed, attacked, and killed by an armed, unidentified, aggressive man. Would you disparage her for not running fast enough, far enough, or long enough? Say he was a white 17 year old honor roll student.... say he was anything but a black teen in a hoodie... oh, wait, then he never would have caught GZ's eye.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Okay, fine. Say Trayvon was a white woman who was followed, attacked, and killed by an armed, unidentified, aggressive man. Would you disparage her for not running fast enough, far enough, or long enough? Say he was a white 17 year old honor roll student.... say he was anything but a black teen in a hoodie... oh, wait, then he never would have caught GZ's eye.

Gender has nothing to do with it. Male or female, under those circumstances running as fast, far, and as long as one can would seem wise.

I mean if TM really thought GZ was a "creepy ass cracker", why stick around? Put that asshat in your rear view mirror.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
it is over, get over it

Florida governor Scott said yesterday he would not sign a new bill ending Stand Your Ground

and the beat goes on, no change
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
It's unfortunate he made a foolish, and fatal, choice that night. Such are the risks of youth.

Zimmerman made the foolish and fatal choice. This is where your analysis fails.

But I suppose if Martin had shuffled his feet, rolled his eyes and mumbled something obsequious to Zimmerman, you peckerwoods would feel better about it.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
Gary, so you think Trayvon's choice to stay and fight was wise?

He's dead.

They both made foolish choices.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
meanwhile Obama throws some more fuel on teh fire....

Obama says 'Trayvon Martin could have been me, 35 years ago'


(Reuters) - President Barack Obama said on Friday that the death of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager shot dead in Florida last year, has raised questions about why young African-Americans experience racial profiling.

"You know, when Trayvon Martin was first shot, I said that this could have been my son. Another way of saying that is Trayvon Martin could have been me, 35 years ago," Obama told reporters at the White House, in his first public remarks after the acquittal by a Florida court of Martin's shooter, George Zimmerman.

in direct conflict with what the jury said...that race was not an issue.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
I agree, at least in retrospect, he should have ran all the way home. And if I were a black teen in FL, I would now run any time anyone slowed down and/or made eye contact with me... cuz that's what the boss man seems to want.

But you can't tell me as a 17 year old in a gated community on the phone with some girl, your first inclination would have been to run home at the first sign of a creepy ass cracker following you. On the streets in downtown Rivercide... you bet your ass I ran plenty of times. When we were sk8ing and got jumped by jocks in Salt Lake City, yep, we ran.

But this wasn't downtown Rivercide, nor was it a bunch of rowdy high school kids looking for a fight. It was an overzealous wannabe cop as#@&%e who took the law into his own hands... who initiated a confrontation and killed an unarmed, innocent kid... and now walks free. That's the point.





http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/06/18/george-zimmerman-night-tour-retreat-twin-lakes

~2:30... proof Zimmerman is a lying sack of sh#t.



They both made foolish choices.

One was innocent and is now dead. The other a celebrated hero of many gun toting white conservative males. That's also the point.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
of course the jury would say race was not an issue

if they did say it was, they would be admitting they broke the Court's order to decide without bias

lets see, all women jury, almost all white, nope, no racial bias there.....

sarcasm aside, the jury decided only one thing, that the state did not prove its case beyond reasonable doubt
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
I hear what you are saying Wes. This is Wes isn't it? I don't know if I would have run in that situation either. I'm just pointing out not doing so was a bad decision.

And GZ? A hero? From my view he's probably guilty of manslaughter. Unfortunately the State of Florida wasn't able to prove that to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

Anyone characterizing GZ as a hero should just be ignored. Don't you do that with all of the right wing talk radio crap already? If not, why not? I don't get it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
lets see, all women jury, almost all white, nope, no racial bias there.....

sarcasm aside, the jury decided only one thing, that the state did not prove its case beyond reasonable doubt

so you ought to be butthurt over the legal system by letting some dude get away. i can buy into that argument. but all these asshats are missing the point.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 19, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
no hawkeye, I don't care about the verdict at all

advise someone else to be butthurt
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Stupidity is not a matter for the law until someone gets hurt.

Someone ended up dead. So both TM and GZ should be convicted of Class A Felony Stupidity in the court of public opinion.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Jul 19, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
I agree Dropline. They both did something stupid. The difference is that Gz is a grown man while TM was just a teenager. We all did stupid things as teenagers, at least most of us did. But as an adult we are expected to be more responsible than teenagers.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 19, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
Chewy, I couldn't agree more.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 19, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
And GZ? A hero? From my view he's probably guilty of manslaughter. Unfortunately the State of Florida wasn't able to prove that to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

Anyone characterizing GZ as a hero should just be ignored. Don't you do that with all of the right wing talk radio crap already? If not, why not? I don't get it.

Agreed. Still, I see no reason to blame the victim.

And Ron, the president is supposed to feel sorry for Zimmerman?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Now this isn't to say the african american community is naive, about the fact that african american young men are disproportionally involved in the criminal justice system, that they're disproportionally both victims and perpetrators of violence.

Yep, Obama is obviously biased.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
yeah and they are "kicking around the idea of racial profiling" in the white house now.

how the fuk would YOU know what is being discussed at the White House, Ron?

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
It was on http://newnation.org.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
Here let me assist you "creepy assed Crackers find your next talking points.



Top 12 Conservative Freakouts After Obama’s Race Speech
By Scott Keyes on Jul 19, 2013 at 2:30 pm

(Credit: AP)
Conservatives didn’t even wait for President Obama to finish his deeply personal remarks on Trayvon Martin’s killing and the role of race in America to go ballistic, accusing the president of being a “Racist in Chief” who is “trying to tear our country apart.”
On Twitter, Fox News, and elsewhere, many conservatives took a predictably depressing response, arguing that Obama is the true racist for having the courage to speak about race in our country.
Here is a roundup of the top conservatives attacking the president’s speech:
Fox News’ Todd Starnes:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07/19/2330191/conservative-freakout-race-speech/
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
Ron wrote: uhhhh i rubbed my crystal ball Norton..


Which explains where all you half-ass comments come from.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
Anderson, you must have a link to such a quote, or are you making crap up again?

Sounds like he's calling for the end of racial profiling, not promoting it.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
Have to agree with with Ron on this one--Obama should just keep his mouth shut and get back to his golf game or whatever he's doing now.

The Zimm case was personal tragedy for TM and his family, but on the scale of terrible crimes committed throughout the US on a regular basis, it wouldn't register as a blip.
Why would the president use the power of his office to sympathize with someone who may or may not have been a victim of a low-grade form of homicide, rather than with the many people who are indisputably victims of much more heinous crimes?

Black people getting shot by White Hispanics who are acquitted (or never charged) based on self-defense is hardly a pressing national problem. Maybe the murder rate of black men is, but stopping the Zimms of the world ain't gonna affect that.
Seems like Obama got personally worked about this case (like a lot of people on this site) and just has a real hard time accepting that the this incident was properly handled from the get go, notwithstanding the race-card players' best efforts to gin up a case.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
Your balls are crystal? Did you suffer an unfortunate smelting accident?






this incident was properly handled from the get go,


B U L L S H I T !
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Of course you have to agree with Anderson, Blabla. That goes without saying.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
I think I am going to hunt KKKrackers. They make me feel threatened.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
B U L L S H I T !
I am serious--the police did a really good job in getting Zimmerman to talk and fully participate in the investigation; most suspects just "lawyer up" and shut up, thereby depriving the police of perhaps the most pertinent information.

Then, the local DA's office came to the correct conclusion in declining to proceed with charges--that is pretty much indisputable in light of the acquittal.

Again, if you all just take a few deep breaths and give this one some time, you'll see that it is just a regrettable incident and not the result of any conspiracy or cover-up or anything like that. Hard to really say race had anything to do with this, other than you all assume Zimm profiled TM, and I can't say he didn't, I don't know.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
It's as if the local cops and the county D.A. told the A.G "we don't need you to do that". A.G. should have simply done what they were told, and not prosecuted.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
My kids wear hoodies. Their Mom is Palestinian.
Should they be "profiled"? I know some of the mouth breathing knuckle dragging Crackers posting here think Hoodies = gang punk and Palestinian = terrorist.
My nephew is a honorable highly decorated career soldier who has fought for and been in OUR wars. I would put mine or my kids lives in his hands at any moment. I wouldn't let most of you racist crackers belay me on a top rope. He also a Black Man who occasionally wears a hoodie. Maybe some creepy assed cracker, like some here on the forum, will profile, stalk and confront him. It would be good to cul the Cracker gene pool.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
You're doing more than your share of profiling yourself there, Philo.
abrams

Sport climber
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
Martin got justice. In court and on that sidewalk. Only Democrats need
to let themselves lay passively as their brains are splattered on the ground or have their eyes poked out by a finger or their throats crushed by an
angry punk.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
Hilarious...who does this sound like...the white racists on this thread?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/white-men-racism-over_n_3624866.html


Of course white middle age men have all the answers when it comes to racism, women bodies and gay marriage.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
I love how the pathetic Crackers scream RACISM when their limited world view is compromised.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 19, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
If Zimmermann's a cracker, Obama's a cracker too.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 19, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
You might be a cracker if...

1. You grew up and live primarily around people who are the same race as you;

2. You have ever stated these words, "I am not a racist, but ..."

3. You have ever stated these words, "I am not a racist!" ("Methinks she doth protest too much");

4. You doubt that the Holocaust ever happened;

5. You wish the Confederacy had won the Civil War;

6. You fear that your child will date a member of another race because interracial couples are "stigmatized";

7. You believe discrimination laws are too "politically correct";

8. You can't understand why it's wrong for you to use the "n" word since African-Americans use the word to each other and in rap music;

9. You believe hip hop is not a legitimate type of music;

10. You think it's really white people, particularly white men, who are the real victims of discrimination in this country in this day and age.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 19, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
blahhblahh said
Then, the local DA's office came to the correct conclusion in declining to proceed with charges--that is pretty much indisputable in light of the acquittal.

Again, if you all just take a few deep breaths and give this one some time, you'll see that it is just a regrettable incident and not the result of any conspiracy or cover-up or anything like that. Hard to really say race had anything to do with this, other than you all assume Zimm profiled TM, and I can't say he didn't, I don't know.

So except for that the incident started by profiling Treyvon by his race it had nothing to do with race. And you're again conflating what is legal with what is just. When the law is unjust you wind up with outcomes that are unjust.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 19, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
I also wonder why obama did not mention the black panthers and call for calm and rejecting a million dollar bounty put up for a US citizen

oh yes Ron, I can just see you sitting there in Mound "wondering" all about that

the reason? probably because he knew that if he did then you would say he is dividing the country and should not talk about "race" matters

as if anyone gives a sh!t what you wonder about

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 19, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
^ ^ ^
Shouldn't that be on the "Friday posting while drunk thread"?
neversummer

climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Jul 19, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
Some of you sound like you got a junior g-man badge and an online degree in criminal profiling..... wow.
Fluid

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 19, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
Dr. Christ writes
Is anyone really stupid enough to think "self-defense" applies to a confrontation they started?

Of course it does. I can walk up to you and ask a question. If you attack me, I can fight back in self-defense. We don't know if this is how it happened, but the possibility exists within what we know. Of course, you are free to extrapolate beyond what we know.

Trayvon first ran (which clearly got his pursuer amped up) and then stood his ground when he had no other option.

Z had already called the cops when TM was running. I wonder if he didn't want him to get away because then he'd have nothing to show the cops when they arrived and appear foolish. So his goal was to keep Z located until the cops came, and to do so, he followed and approached him. Those who think he started the fight at that point need to square that with Z's knowledge that the cops were on the way.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
.
A.G. should have simply done what they were told, and not prosecuted.
No ASSHAT Zimmie should have done what they told him and stood down.
The Attorney General has no obligation to swallow the sh#t coming out of Floridastan.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
the police did a really good job in getting Zimmerman to talk and fully participate in the investigation

Yep, and he gave them a completely different story than what was presented in the trial. He said Trayvon approached him, asked GZ if he had a problem, and then told GZ he was going to die that night.

GZ flat out lied to the cops and changed his story when it became obvious the phone call with Jeantel would prove him wrong. Why did his story change so drastically? Because he knew what he did was wrong. He is a lying sack of sh#t wannabe cop who targeted and killed an innocent kid based solely on appearances.


Is anyone really stupid enough to think "self-defense" applies to a confrontation they started?

Of course it does.

It was a rhetorical question. Of course a handful of you are stupid enough to think that.

I can walk up to you and ask a question.

You are also apparently stupid enough to think that is what actually happened. There is a big difference between asking a question and strapping on a penis extension, following someone, and instigating a confrontation with only the words "what are you doing around here." GZ knew full well there is a difference, which is why he lied through his teeth to the cops and said Trayvon initiated the confrontation.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 19, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
TM is now the poster child for the anti-gun crowd.

What a bunch of opportunists. This is hardly about race.





Just look at the mimicry of the sides from the gun debate thread.

C'mon, admit it guys, Zimmerman getting a cracked skull wouldn't bother you if you could outlaw handguns.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
Just when I thought Florida was making Texas look good.


Report: 10 Texas men cheered while raping 13-year-old girl on video

By David Edwards
Friday, July 19, 2013 11:55 EDT

Up to 13 Texas men cheered as they filmed each other raping a 13-year-old girl, according to an Austin police report.

The girl told detectives that she was picked up by three strangers after running away from Settlement Home for Children on June 30. Court records said she was taken to the Avalon Palms Apartments and sexually assault by between 10 and 13 men.

KTBC reported that 24-year-old Juan Lozano Ortega and 26-year-old Edgar Gerardo Guzman Perez were arrested on Wednesday in connection with crime.


Ortega is accused of raping the girl while the other men cheered and filmed with their cellphones. The other men then allegedly took turns in the rape, which “lasted several hours.”

Evidence gathered during a forensic exam backed up the girl’s version of events.

An affidavit said that the victim was driven to a nearby neighborhood after the assault and told to “find somewhere to go.” Police were able to track down Ortega and Perez because one of them let the girl borrow his cellphone to call her foster brother, who captured the caller ID.

If Ortega and Perez are found guilty of aggravated sexual assault of a child, they could be sentenced to life in prison. Police are continuing to search for additional suspects.

State child welfare investigators are also looking into to Settlement Home for Children, which takes care of abused and neglected girls under 18.



I am confident that our local Zimmie fans will also think it is this girls fault for running away.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 19, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
Riley wrote...

"The Internet really has failed man... Instead of interesting conversation with intelligent people. We all end up arguing with the guy who sits in the corner of the bar mumbling to himself. Or f*#ktard racists who miss the days they had weekly klan meetings.
It's like reverse MENSA ... What a f*#king nightmare .."

Yes, spot on. :)
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 19, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
Trayvon Zombies with their liberal white guilt tumors are
the real problem.

Never cleaning up their appeasement puddles.
WUWT?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 19, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
Ron wrote: DIng ding! we have a winner^^^^..

Coming from the biggest loser/whiner on this site. Perfect!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
RonA just because someone drools your cup of bile doesn't make them a winner.


But isn't it great that Obama's policies saved us from the economic collapse that Bush foisted upon us so we have the leisure time to spar and sputter about this rather than be out digging up grubs in the dirt and scraps of food out of trash cans.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 19, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
If comments on a forum make your world, Anderson, you need to get a life.

Jeebus, 60 comments from you today. LEB would be proud.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
And there in lies the rub.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Zimmie got the best prosecution money could by.
Trayvon got the worst defense possible.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
Why are you so racist against Hispanics Philo..And have you contributed to www.blackpanthersrus.com towards the million dollar contract on zimmy?


The better question is when are you enrolling in a Sylvan Learning Center?
Your reading comprehension is skewed a bit to the right.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 19, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
Fluid

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:16am PT
Dr. Christ writes:
I can walk up to you and ask a question.

You are also apparently stupid enough to think that is what actually happened.

No. I don't know what happened. And neither do you.

There is a big difference between asking a question and strapping on a penis extension, following someone, and instigating a confrontation with only the words "what are you doing around here."

i.e. Walking up and asking a question.

GZ knew full well there is a difference, which is why he lied through his teeth to the cops and said Trayvon initiated the confrontation.

This last statement is possibly true.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:38am PT
GZ knew full well there is a difference, which is why he lied through his teeth to the cops and said Trayvon initiated the confrontation.

This last statement is possibly true.

Possibly? Yeah, and kids should carry on casual conversations with strangers that follow them. Good luck with that.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:53am PT

Z claims TM was pounding his head on the sidewalk when TM was shot thru the heart.

Z told the police TM collapsed immediately and fell forward, when he was shot.

How did TM wind up so far from the sidewalk?

Why is the shell casing(8) so far from the sidewalk.


The casing ejects backward and at an angle.


The head pounding on sidewalk claim does not make sense.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 20, 2013 - 06:19am PT
And you know this how Bharata?
Inside information or wishful racism?
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jul 20, 2013 - 11:23am PT
First of all, there's this: http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/antoniowest.asp to clarify why this was not deemed a hate crime and why they won't be facing the death penalty.

Just because a crime was committed between 2 different races doesn't make it a racially motivated crime.

And secondly, the death penalty does nothing to the crime rate and is barbaric. We as a nation need to join the civilized nations that choose morality over vengeance. To continue is to be no better than some of the enemies we are at war with now.

Addendum: And furthermore, if we're to be so outraged over the tragic death of one child, why aren't we as a nation as outraged over the continuing body count from random mass killings of innocents by maniacs with nearly instantaneous unregulated access to guns?

Yeah, the news just completely ignored the issue. Except it didn't. I saw it repeatedly on the news for a week. Pretty good coverage for a random shooting. And Obama has already spoken about gun violence. Again: this was NOT a hate crime.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
As tragic as West's murder was, 13 month old babies can't talk, let alone write their story posthumously. So the first person account of the murder is clearly a fabrication.

Kill whitey.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
Imagine the number of letters innocent black children (or Hispanic or Native American) who were murdered by whites because of their race could write. Not for money, but for entertainment, convenience, and intimidation. Far more than the number white babies could ever write.

But the fact is, all of those murders (including West's) have absolutely NOTHING to do with GZ killing Trayvon. Absolutely, 100% false equivalency. More desperate grasping by scared, ignorant, racists crackers still upset about the new color in the White House and the fact that society is questioning their right to go around killing people based on their appearance.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Ron you are sad, lonely pathetic little man...Manzanita is right there with you. Racist to the core.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
you're on a roll Ron...can't be for real...it's like some kind of ignorant cracker jazz improv...go man go
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Why isn't the NRA asking why TM didn't have a gun. Shoot out 'American style! YEEEHHAAA!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Riley,

At the moment Martin was shot, he was busy beating a guy who was down. He was no longer on the phone. He had finished his last call ever by then.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Chaz you have NOproof of that. It is only the wishful thinking of your racist heart.

Look up thread, if Zimmie's tall tale were true then how did Trayvon's body and the spent casing end up where they did?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Keep trying Cracker Jacks you can get it to fit.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Philo writes:

"Chaz you have NOproof of that. It is only the wishful thinking of your racist heart."



It was testified to in court. No other testimony or evidence presented contradicted it.

BTW, I take offense to your characterization of me as racist. It's uncalled for and you're seriously out of line writing that.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
go man go...you're locked into a groove...keep blowin' that horn....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Chaz wrote: At the moment Martin was shot, he was busy beating a guy who was down. He was no longer on the phone. He had finished his last call ever by then.

Take the white hood off dude...you are losing it.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 20, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
BTW, I take offense to your characterization of me as racist. It's uncalled for and you're seriously out of line writing that.

Hey Boy if the hood fits.


So Chaz tell us how you feel about Middle Eastern Arabs, Muslims, Persians and Palestinians.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 20, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
How do I feel? How come all those folks get along just fine with the jews when they're all in Los Angeles?

It's because we're the most multi-cultural, least racist country on the planet.

People of color from all over the world are lining up to get here. If we were a racist country, why would anyone who isn't white want to emigrate here?

We elected - then re-elected - a black President. What does that tell you?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 20, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
I always trust a bunch of old abilities guys in a climbing forum for my perspective on racism in America.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 20, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
We elected - then re-elected - a black President. What does that tell you?

That intelligent Americans shook off the tyrannical fear mongering of Neo-Conservatism and the disastrous policies of the Shrub Cabal.
The Democratic candidate could have been a lesbian smurf and they would have defeated the Conservative wingnutz.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 20, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
By the way I am more in support of a Presidential bid by Elizabeth Warren.
She has more guts, brains and moxie than the whole of the TeaBaglican circus combined.




Elizabeth Warren Potus 2016-2024.
See ya Republican trash.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 20, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
If you didn't come off so bitter at times, Riley, you might be able to see the people of all races getting along fine around you.

I could tell stories all day of races mixing in places where you probably wouldn't think they would.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 20, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
OK Chaz you're on. Go!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 20, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Hey Wade,, anyt thoughts about the black pantherzz blaming WHITE america AGAIN?> seeing as how Zimmerman was a Hispanic and all. I think that to be a little off base eh,, odd maybe?> Or just plain ol BULLSHEET.?

see how easily you're distracted...Fox news needs you. So there's a 'White' America and, apparently a 'Black' America...Which is perfect really, since THE President is Half White, Half Black.

But, actually no, Ron. I don't think about it at all... until you brought it up..and then,,,still no, don't think about it... Except for the absurd irony of you claiming Indian blood...skittley dee bop boo deep oo bop boo..go man go...blow that horn...

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 20, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
like I said Ron, easily distracted ....

extremists on both ends of the spectrum - panthers and westboro -are equally irrelevant. aside from some fauxsnews ratings bump. wasn't so long ago some of your confederates were calling for a similar bounty on the halfbreed...
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 20, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
Photo of the back of George's jacket taken about 45 minutes after he killed Trayvon . Where are the grass, mud or scuff marks? George claims he squirmed in the muddy grass with a 150 pound teenager on top of him, attempting to get his head off of a sidewalk as that teenager is allegedly punching him in the face 25-30 times


George claims that while he was on his back, he squirmed and squirmed and shimmied on the muddy wet grass to get his head off of the sidewalk but the back of his blue jeans look quite pristine to me...

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 20, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
Ron wrote: 1/8 Choctaw,, but does the amount matter less than if i were 1/4 and entitled to minority status? I dont care what you think of that, im still proud of my heritage.. And I have gone to bat for my Indian brothers in a BIG damm way.. Have you?


Like a fecking broken record. When will you STFU?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 20, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
keep blowin that tune...true colors
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 20, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Thanks Jennie. Zimmerman is quite the liar.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 20, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Here's one, Philo. Try not to smile!

This goes back almost 30 years.

Mid '80s. I'm tending bar in a bowling alley ( Henny might know where it's at ).

Hundreds of people bowled there then, and at one time I could count the number of black customers on one hand.

The bar there was, well, let's just say it wasn't exactly a genteel joint. The jukebox featured both kinds of music; Country and Western. There were more types of Marlboro in the cigarette machine than there were wines in our "cellar". There was a fight more weekends than there wasn't, and sometimes on school nights, too.

A black guy walks in one night, and he sits at the bar. He's missing a hand, wacked off midway between his elbow and his wrist. Guy orders a beer with an obvious foreign accent.

His name was Brihani. He was from Eretria. I didn't know where the hell Eretria was, so he gave me a quick bar-napkin geography lesson, better than anything I got in high school ( and better than anything I was liable to get if I had stayed in school ).

Then the next night, he came in again. And almost every night that week. Before long, I'm hearing about the situation between Eretria and Ethiopia. Although I never did ask about his missing hand, I got the feeling it had something to do with that beef.

After a couple of weeks, he brings in a friend - another Eretrian. This guy's missing a wrist, too, and a leg. I never got his name. Two customers usually talk to each other, so their conversation with the bartender is normally limited to "hi, how ya doin'?" and "whaddya having?".

After a while, more of their Eretrian pals started hanging out. This was turning into a pretty good bar business for us.

A few months go by, and I see one of the Etrian guys walk in carrying a bowling bag with a woman ( so far, the bowling alley had been their boy's night out ). A few minutes later, there's another Etrian couple, also geared up to bowl.

These guys joined bowling leagues!

I had to see what this looked like, so after the initial league-start-up bar rush subsided, I walked out to the lanes to find out. These East African couples weren't on the same team, they were on two different teams, paired up with white couples.

After they finished bowling, they had to stop at the bar, of course. And the usual crowd of goat-ropers got along just fine with them, and their friends and families who came to watch them bowl. Party Time!

As this bowling league was what's called a "Vegas League", they all go to Las Vegas to bowl their final session and party it up.

These Eretrians seemed to fit right in, in one of the last places you would expect.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 20, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
Ron wrote: hey bobda, you may have noticed, well probably knott, but i didnt bring it up, but rather a response to others that did.


You bring it up all the time, day after day, week after week. Like a broken record. No one give a sh#t that you are 1/8 anything.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/winter-park-woman-getting-zimmerman-death-threats/nYxZj/
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 20, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
...skittley dee bop boo deep oo bop boo..go man go...blow that horn...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 20, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
so WHY did HE interfere in the first place and force this trial?

so tell us exactly how the President "forced" this trial, Ron?

give us the timeline when he ordered the state of Florida to try Zimmerman

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 20, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
Ron wrote: just the facts Norton,, just the facts.

Like the fact that you have shot white people.


What a lying sack you are.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jul 20, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
Here's the official definition for you, since you seem to have some inability to actually query google: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/overview

Most approprite is the part about simply hating not being a crime.

Did the perp hate white people? Probably isn't too fond of them. But this was a crime of impulsive opportunity and a warped brain, not of racism. I think he would've done the same to whoever was there and looked vulnerable.

I do feel sad for you carrying around so much hate in your heart; must be exhausting. The world you want to inhabit ended 50-odd years ago. Perhaps you can find an empty chair to tell your troubles to.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Barry's favorite race baiter.


Wait till she finds out how much he owes the IRS in back taxes.

(Forget about that. He's immune from collection for at least an other couple of years)
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 20, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Ron wrote: HAHHAHAA no bobda. I havent lied one friggin bit. Hell,at age 10, i shot my BROTHER Mike with a bow and arrow because he pissed me off. Dropped him from seventy five yards right in the back of the thigh. To the ground he went.


You really are a big joke.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 20, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
Jim...my brother was 13 months older than me...used to kick my ass till I was around 16, never felt the urge to shoot him with a gun or bow...things changed and I fought back harder with my fists (no bows, no rocks). Ron really is sad excuse for a human.

I think if one of my kids shot anybody with a bow at 10 I would least sought out some help for him/her...not the kinda thing a stable kid does.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 20, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Ron wrote: and bobda,, really,, just shut theee fukk up... yur embarassing.


Really...the little twit who claims to shot his brother and other white people is not the f*#k upped one.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jul 20, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
ppffff...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 20, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
waiting on Ron


so WHY did HE interfere in the first place and force this trial?
so tell us exactly how the President "forced" this trial, Ron?

give us the timeline when he ordered the state of Florida to try Zimmerman

dirtbag

climber
Jul 20, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
Patience Norton. It will take Ron a bit to scan the John Birch websites to provide an answer.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 20, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
I think George Zimmerman's problem has less to do with racism...than the fact he's a narcissistic sociopath. (Mr Zimmerman's maternal great-grandfather was black and he was outspoken about justice for abuses of the local black homeless)

A sociopathic person contrives an imaginary conception of what is right and what is true in the world. Sociopaths are self-occupied, disheartened about reality...and rarely take accountability for evil and injustice that result from their actions. People who question or challenge their perception of themselves will fall victim to a narcissistic crackup that will redeem their self-concept to others.

Because that self-idol posed to society is so preeminent to a sociopath, they may feel it needful to safeguard their personae employing any imperative measures to secure impression of grandiose being.

Sociopaths do not see error in their own exploits... and are convinced they are in the right and everyone else is culpable for troubling circumstances. When circumstances do not play out the way they desire... they defend their own performance by faulting everyone else.

Much vigilante behavior starts with a narcissistic conception that presumes the universe is a better place now that they are in control. The warped sense that no one can execute the task as themselves... and that all things are superior now that they have command. Vigilantes usually ignore the rules they do not concur with, and contrive "other" methods more useful to themselves.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 20, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
Well ok then Ron

You have, for once, admitted to being at the same
time wrong and a liar.

So then, why did you make the decision to
lie about your President?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 21, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Ron declared
Im willing to bet NO ONE on this forum has EVER discriminated against some one over the colour of their skin- NOT ONE. I believe that to be the truth.

I can promise you quite emphatically that is not true. Your desperate belief that that is true is also what makes you blind to the discrimination around you. You being a white guy living amongst a bunch of dead animals in the middle of the desert might...just MIGHT...make you a little naive to what goes on in the rest of the country.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 21, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
Officer Wagner took this photo of the back of George's head, at the scene, before EMS used peroxide to clean the blood. Notice the streams of blood have a defined path flowing toward the front of GZ's face which is not consistent with bleeding on his back. Also, the streams are not consistent with Zimmerman laying on his back, getting his head slammed against a sidewalk over a dozen times while simultaneously "squirming" and "shimmying" on his back to get his head off of the sidewalk...as George claimed.

No blood residue was found on the sidewalk. (it was raining but not raining hard)

But if George had been on his back strugging, allegedly being hit in the face 25 to 30 times and having his head slammed into the sidewalk a dozen times...wouldn't there be smearing and smudging of blood rather than streams flowing toward the front of his head?

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 21, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
It's pretty clear there was no evidence of head banging on the sidewalk. No witness testified that happened in the trial.

The star defense witness John Good, who was the only one to say TM was on top, said he did not see any headbanging, anywhere, sidewalk or grass. Even Good said he couldn't confirm TM was hitting Zimmerman, just that there was a lot of flailing.

The body and the shell casing were found about 7 feet from the sidewalk.


De la Rionda honed in on Good's earlier statement that he couldn't confirm the person on top was hitting the other person.

"Correct," Good said.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 21, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
intellectually lazy, along with a fair lack of comprehension
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 21, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 21, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Republican Senator John McCain today:

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said on Sunday that while he does not question the decision of the jury in the Trayvon Martin case, he does think all states, including his own, should review their "stand your ground" laws.

"No one I know of has said this case is flawed or corrupt, or that there's anything wrong with the system of justice," McCain told Candy Crowley on CNN's Face the Nation. "I can also see that the stand your ground law may be something that needs to be reviewed by the Florida Legislature or any other Legislature.

McCain also praised President Barack Obama's speech about Trayvon Martin and the racial profiling that black men regularly face. While many have called Obama's speech "divisive" for emphasizing issues of race, McCain thought the remarks were appropriate.

"Events like this highlight and emphasize that we have a long way to go," McCain said. "The president very appropriately highlighted a lot of that yesterday, as only the president can."
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 21, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
McCain also praised President Barack Obama's speech about Trayvon Martin and the racial profiling that black men regularly face. While many have called Obama's speech "divisive" for emphasizing issues of race, McCain thought the remarks were appropriate.

"Events like this highlight and emphasize that we have a long way to go," McCain said. "The president very appropriately highlighted a lot of that yesterday, as only the president can.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 21, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
SYG instructions were read to the jury.

Pre 2005 SYG, the instruction would have read that Zimmerman "cannot justify his use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm if by retreating he could have avoided the need to use that force.

Now, if you are afraid, blast away.
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 21, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Mono maybe you can tell us how George could retreat while being straddled
and beat by the psycho Trayvon? ?

?

Or is Mono selling the idiotic opinion that blacks are likely to attack strangers anywhere and rational people should preemptively retreat from any black male they meet in public?

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 21, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
"No one I know of has said this case is flawed or corrupt, or that there's anything wrong with the system of justice,"

That's funny, I'm not a senator or anything, but I've heard this law come into questioning many times by many people in the last year or so.


What's could be wrong with a law like this?
Zimmermam's brother is concerned some vigilantes might come for him.
How ironic.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 21, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
Command Error, apparently TM didn't use enough force. It was he who was killed in the fight. He gets to stand his ground too.

Two witnesses had Zimmerman on top. Zimmerman could have backed off at the first sign of hostility. He knew the cops were on the way. All he had to do was identify himself as a neighborhood watch person and follow him.
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 21, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Media hide black-on-Hispanic attack amid Trayvon Protests while
Sharpton, Beyonce rail against 'racial injustice' only miles away

Black mob attacks shoots Hispanic family
Police are now searching for five black men and one black woman for shooting the woman’s family.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/media-hide-black-on-hispanic-attack-amid-trayvon-protests/
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
We lived NEAR Watts when it burned. I have a bit more exposure than you may think. I have a S African friend i helped get back to SA during the apartheid days.

Congratulations on having a "black friend" in the 1980's. Or was he a white friend who wanted to get back to South Africa because it was pretty sweet being white there?

Ive been aware of racial goings on for quite some time.
Hell,, i even hang out in Tuscon quite a bit.!

You have hung out in Tucson? So you're literally Mexican. I had no idea. I bow to your superior knowledge of "racial goings on" which I will now defer to on all matters regardless of the fact that they contradict the experiences of millions of non-whites in this country. I, too, have hung out in Tucson but somehow lack the ability to confidently contradict people with first hand knowledge of being discriminated against.

Have you ever discriminated against some one over their skin tones HD?

I was hanging out with this girl for a time and she suggested that we go bowling. I was cool with that, bowling was something I did with a number of my friends as just kind of a fun "why the hell not get drunk, make up silly names and screw around" way. I only knew one guy my age who actually owned his own ball and shoes which we all thought was pretty weird. So this girl and I roll up to the bowling alley and she pops the trunk and pulls out her own ball and shoes and I was pretty amazed. Now I would have been surprised if any gal I was dating had pulled out her own personal bowling gear, but I realized that because she was black I had doubly assumed that we were just bowling on a lark instead of the reality which was that she grew up bowling with her family and this was something she took pretty seriously. I made a total assumption based on the color of her skin. It's a lesson that I remember all the time. Oh and I got my ass kicked bowling.

Discrimination isn't just about not serving lunch and sicking dogs on people. It's the assumptions that we make whether they be that someone is an employee of a business instead of the owner or that they look "up to no good" and deserve to be followed and have the cops siced on them. It's also discriminatory to just dismiss people's concerns about race just because you don't want to have to admit that this sh#t happens.


Ron hollered
This has been the first time ANY SYG law has come into question, even though MOST states have one and have for quite some time without any incidents. Those were all voted in by local politicians IN RESPONSE to requests from their people. But one isolated incident no where near "horrific" by daily standards in the USA and now the "need looking into"..???

PUPPETS ON A STRING

Can you find an instance in a non-SYG state where someone went to prison for legitimately defending themselves? Aren't libertarian "non-Republicans" like yourself supposed to be against unneeded laws? The only strings I see on SYG belong to the NRA so you might be a bit confused about who is the puppet here.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jul 21, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
McCain can seem remarkably lucid at times cantee?


I voted for him in 2000 (2002?)
WBraun

climber
Jul 21, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
Mac-insane is a a 2 faced traitor to the USA ......

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
McCain made a pretty awesome speech on the steps of the courthouse in Prescott, Az after he had tied up the nomination and was waiting for Obama and Clinton to finish each other off. I was impressed. And then he threw everything he said in that speech out the window once the general election started.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 21, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
you seem pretty good at profiling
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
Ron said
Good gawd if THATS what you call discrimination then every one ever where is doing it right now.

Yeah dude. As someone posted above, the distinction is the discrimination. You have literally no clue what you're talking about so why don't you start asking questions about race relations instead of acting like you already have a handle on the thing.


Or maybe you should go to Tucson and actually meet someone of the people that live there instead of just hanging out with the guy you know who is so sure that Arizona is "under siege."


Ron said
Ive discussed this with my black, brown, red and yellow friends. NOT ONE argues the findings and NOT ONE thinks this is a racial issue. Im THANKFUL for my friends..

And yet there are millions and millions who disagree with them. It's almost as if you've self-selected friends who will already agree with your viewpoint. Shocker.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 21, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Skittles. (Pontificate) .
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
Ron accused
You HD assume im an uneducated redneck ..


I'm sorry, Ron. Do you feel discriminated against? Cause I asked all of my redneck friends and not one of them think it's an issue.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:05am PT
I have one question if Z shot Trayvon in self defense while having his head pounded on the sidewalk WHERE is the blood from the gunshot wound on his clothes??

If he was within a few feet of Trayvon the blood would have splattered on him...


I think Rsin's re-enactment makes sense...Z got a punch and decided to kill in retaliation...

Rest in Peace Trayvon...what is wrong with some people in our world today...Peace Love and Happiness isn't really hard to STRIVE for!!!

F&%CK GUNS and Violence!!!

I am still trying my best to be nice to people I have a REAL PROBLEM with like RACISM...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:58am PT
You can start by not calling Mexicans "Hispanic". That's considered condescending by your average Mexican on the street. Mexicans don't appreciate being called "latino", either. Just ask any Mexican, if you don't believe me.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 10:03am PT
Yeah, I got a real problem with racism, too - but what's to be learned about racism from a bunch of white guys?

To have an honest discussion, it might help to have at least one black guy and one Hispanic in the room.


President Obama did that last week and the right wingers accused him of inciting race riots. They are deathly afraid of talking about racism, and rather accuse the President, basically, of being an angry black man.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:18am PT
Yup.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:31am PT
wallking while black or presiding while black... the lesson here kids is just don't be black.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:38am PT
^^^Why not?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:46am PT
I've lost track-- I can't keep the imbeciles straight anymore.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:54am PT
Previous page, jemarr claimed:
"Trayvon's mom kicked him out of her home. What kind of woman kicks her son out of the house? A sane and reasonable one if the son is a violent nut."

I looked this up and evidently she did kick him out at the time that the school kicked him out, but where is the evidence Travon was a violent nut as you say? I knew a lot of guys in high school who had guns near or on them all the time, 2 of whom grew up to be police officers and not violent men at all.




Snippet from the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/24/us/zimmermans-lawyers-release-text-messages-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=0

"... In a series of text messages from November 2011 to February 2012, Mr. Martin wrote that he had been suspended from school for cutting classes. In the messages, he said his mother had “kicked” him out of the house and told him to move in with his father. In one message, Mr. Martin described himself as “gangsta.” Other text messages refer to his involvement in fights and reveal an interest in guns, including an exchange about possibly buying one, referring to it as a .380.

Earlier, in a separate text, he asked whether a friend had a gun.

“U gotta gun?” he asked the friend on Feb. 18, 2012. His friend replied, “It my mommy but she buy for me.”

“She let u hold it?” Mr. Martin asked. “Yea,” the friend replied. “But she keep it,” Mr. Martin said. “Yea,” the friend texted back.

Mr. Martin, 17, also texted that he smoked marijuana, which was revealed in toxicology reports. At one point, he mentioned that he had it wrapped up for the bus ride from Miami, where he lived, to Orlando, where he was going to stay with his father for a while during his suspension from school in February 2012.

In one text, he riffed on his suspension shortly before he was killed on Feb. 26. Mr. Martin was suspended for 10 days after school officials found in his backpack a baggie that contained traces of marijuana. ..."

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:56am PT
jghedge writes:

"Isn't this the same imbecile who tried to claim that "SoCal is just like Mexico"?"




No.

Get your quote straight before framing it in quotation marks, please.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
Face reality my keister. Bwhahahahaaaa another faceless anonymous first time poster pops out of the wood pile to support wingnutz.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Coward!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
I THINK the American folk are slowly waking up..

Yes we are and we are wondering when you will quit snoring?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
Face reality Ron. Split personality or multiple?

Miserable chickenshit hangdog sportclimber. Now THERE is a slur you can't dodge.
That is funny calling ME a hangdogging sport climber. At least I don't hide in anonymity while wallowing in lies. But it fits all Y'all's SOP.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 22, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
"You can start by not calling Mexicans "Hispanic". That's considered condescending by your average Mexican on the street"

Holy fuking sh#t. I'd rather be climbing in record temps. STupid fukers.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
The cards are marked and the deck is stacked.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Phil...you have to understand that Facereality agrees with Ron..that is all you need to know about coward. It's like agreeing with Rush Limbaugh or Hannity.

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Dr. F, second guessing a jury is just foolishness. They had far better access to both evidence and argument than anyone outside that courtroom.

But I know, you are just smarter than everyone else. After all, no one would have even thought of you what you did!! My Gawwwwd!!! You are just so smart we are all in awe!!! hahahahahahahahah
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Something rotted his teeth. Only thing I know that does that to someone that young is methamphetamine.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Facereality imagined
Thats the Law, BTW.

So injustice is totally cool so long as it's legal. Got it.



Ron said
Jeeezus Doc,, READ the reports of the medical examiner who noted his liver in severe distress form " LEAN"..


So it's totally ok to shoot teenagers that have a history of drug abuse, might have been kicked out of their mom's house and were suspended from school. Man I'm learning a lot here.

If this was a totally justifiable killing why are you all so eager to dehumanize the victim by denigrating his character? If it was a justifiable killing then the victim could be Jesus and the facts would speak for themselves. Instead you all desperately to try to discredit the victim and his value as a human being to make yourselves ok that it happened.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
HiDesertDJ writes:

"So injustice is totally cool so long as it's legal. Got it."




You mean like taxation? By any other word, taxation = theft ( legalized ).
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Chaz whined
You mean like taxation? By any other word, taxation = theft ( legalized ).

Change subject. Insert strawman.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
Totally cool so long as it's legal. Got it.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
Then the presiDUNT comes on claiming that could have been him 35 years ago. I guess he would have been cutting class in his private school then eh?

so what?

I went to a private high school, so did Mitt Romney and George Bush, if their going to a private school is somehow a "negative" then why did you vote for Romney

or is it the fact that Romney who you voted for had all his father's wealth to pay for his college education as he "admitted", it that what bothers you, Ron?

almost every US President, AND Congressman, went to a "private" or non public school

SO FUKING WHAT?

are you JEALOUS or something?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
"almost every US President, AND Congressman, went to a "private" or non public school"



Wow! THAT is a stat!

I knew the Public Schools were bad, but I didn't know they were that bad.

The same government officials who run our schools won't be caught attending one themselves!

Imagine a restaurant where nobody who works there thinks the food is good enough to eat. Would you want to eat there? Would you think they were doing a good job?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
So, what rotted his teeth?

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
did you mean this ME Report Ron?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Philo its always your SOP to attack the messenger ,, not the message..

Well Ron that is not true. I only attack the messenger when the repeated efforts to reveal facts and truth to them fall on death ears and blind eyes. Like the Med Examiner's report.


Facesurreality, just because you insist the world is flat that does not make it so.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Post it.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Consistent with Purple Drank.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
i will bet 10K that the medical examiners report shows SEVERE liver and gall bladder damage consistent with LEAN usage. Any takers? I have the full report on an open window.



how about that unremarkable gall bladder?

and chaz-'teeth are normal with fair oral hygiene'

you and ron getting your ME Reports from the same source?

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
I'm no dentist, but this isn't normal:



Meth-mouth is the only thing I can think of that damages teeth that bad that young.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
You...you don't have 10k...STFU.


Full report here.

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2013/07/05/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf


Toxicology report had low levels of THC...oh my god the kid smoked a little weed.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
I know you don't have 10k, fecking hillbilly.

The cops blew it in racist Sanford, no drug testing for GZ.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
it's fish in a barrel...but the fish don't know they're in a barrel..or that they've been shot..


Ron...why not post up the report and show us we're wrong? unless...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
the only thing shot here was TMs liver..

show us...since you 'have it in an open window' right there...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
you mean the one that states "Liver: No diagnostic abnormality."

That's some impressive inferring.
You and Chaz must be reading the same report.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Ron wrote: NO im talking about the section that describes a liver heading for failure.



Post it idiot.

Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Ron wrote: Wade already has knumbnuts..

Yes and so did I and it says nothing about liver failure.

Wade wrote:

how about that unremarkable gall bladder?

and chaz-'teeth are normal with fair oral hygiene'

you and ron getting your ME Reports from the same source?


What part of this don't you understand Ron...who is now a doctor and predict future liver failure 40 years from the present?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Todays George Zimmermans newz, Zimmerman rescues family trapped in car:


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-emerged-hiding-truck-crash-rescue/storynew?id=19735432

"George Zimmerman, who has been in hiding since he was acquitted of murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, emerged to help rescue a family who was trapped in an overturned vehicle, police said today.

Zimmerman was one of two men who came to the aid of a family of four -- two parents and two children -- trapped inside a blue Ford Explorer SUV that had rolled over after traveling off the highway in Sanford, Fla. at approximately 5:45 p.m. Thursday, the Seminole County Sheriff's Office said in a statement."
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Ron, how do you pay your bills?

I don't work & I don't have the time to waste that you do.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
Maybe we should quietly turn off the lights and leave the room so Ron and his alter Ego can have a love fest.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Did you guys already talk about the stolen jewelry Martin had got caught with? Interesting take on it here.

How a Miami School Crime Cover-Up Policy Led to Trayvon Martin’s Death

By ROBERT STACY MCCAIN on 7.15.13 @ 1:05AM



The February 2012 shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martion might never have happened if school officials in Miami-Dade County had not instituted an unofficial policy of treating crimes as school disciplinary infractions. Revelations that emerged from an internal affairs investigation explain why Martin was not arrested when caught at school with stolen jewelry in October 2011 or with marijuana in February 2012. Instead, the teenager was suspended from school, the last time just days before he was shot dead by George Zimmerman.

Trayvon Martin was not from Sanford, the town north of Orlando where he was shot in 2012 and where a jury acquitted Zimmerman of murder charges Saturday. Martin was from Miami Gardens, more than 200 miles away, and had come to Sanford to stay with his father’s girlfriend Brandy Green at her home in the townhouse community where Zimmerman was in charge of the neighborhood watch. Trayvon was staying with Green after he had been suspended for the second time in six months from Krop High School in Miami-Dade County, where both his father, Tracy Martin, and mother, Sybrina Fulton, lived.

Both of Trayvon’s suspensions during his junior year at Krop High involved crimes that could have led to his prosecution as a juvenile offender. However, Chief Charles Hurley of the Miami-Dade School Police Department (MDSPD) in 2010 had implemented a policy that reduced the number of criiminal reports, manipulating statistics to create the appearance of a reduction in crime within the school system. Less than two weeks before Martin’s death, the school system commended Chief Hurley for “decreasing school-related juvenile delinquency by an impressive 60 percent for the last six months of 2011.” What was actually happening was that crimes were not being reported as crimes, but instead treated as disciplinary infractions.

In October 2011, after a video surveillance camera caught Martin writing graffiti on a door, MDSPD Office Darryl Dunn searched Martin’s backpack, looking for the marker he had used. Officer Dunn found 12 pieces of women’s jewelry and a man’s watch, along with a flathead screwdriver the officer described as a “burglary tool.” The jewelry and watch, which Martin claimed he had gotten from a friend he refused to name, matched a description of items stolen during the October 2011 burglary of a house on 204th Terrace, about a half-mile from the school. However, because of Chief Hurley’s policy “to lower the arrest rates,” as one MDSPD sergeant said in an internal investigation, the stolen jewerly was instead listed as “found property” and was never reported to Miami-Dade Police who were investigating the burglary.

Similarly, in February 2012 when an MDSPD officer caught Martin with a small plastic bag containing marijuana residue, as well as a marijuana pipe, this was not treated as a crime, and instead Martin was suspended from school.

Either of those incidents could have put Trayvon Martin into the custody of the juvenile justice system. However, because of Chief Hurley’s attempt to reduce the school crime statistics — according to sworn testimony, officers were “basically told to lie and falsify” reports — Martin was never arrested. And if he had been arrested, he might never have been in Sanford the night of his fatal encounter with Zimmerman.

In fact, the reason Zimmerman was patrolling the townhouse community the night of the February 2012 shooting was that there had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood, although there was no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any of those crimes.

As for Chief Hurley’s policy, it was the controversy over Martin’s death that accidentally exposed it. In March 2012, the Miami Herald reported on Martin’s troubled history of disciplinary incidents at Krop High. Chief Hurley then launched the internal affairs investigation in an attempt to find out who had provided information to the reporter.

During the course of that investigation, MDSPD officers and supervisors described Chief Hurley’s policy of not reporting crimes by students. Chief Hurley was subsequently accused of sexually harassing two female subordinates.

He resigned in February, about a year after Trayvon Martin’s death.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
"He resigned in February, about a year after Trayvon Martin’s death".

Wow warping the time space continuum neat trick.

That one line alone discredits the rest.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
What? Phil O, what do you mean?
"Wow warping the time space continuum neat trick. That one line alone discredits the rest."
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
I was not aware that Trayvon was murdered a year ago last February.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Yeah and I heard Trayvon killed Martin Luther King too.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
Dr F:

The jury heard what the defense had to say
They never told the jury about Zimmerman's past violence, or him being rejected by several police forces as an candidate, that he wasn't even a "Neigborhood Watchman"

They never heard all the facts, so I am allowed to second guess them all I want
I have the facts, They didn't
what kind of idiot are you? do you just believe the propaganda, and ignore the facts,
Is that the best way to go through life?

No doubt you are so important and so insightful that you have better access to the facts than the State of Florida Attorney General's Office. We are still all so in awe of you oh great and omniscient Dr. F.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Phil, you need to re-read the article please. PhilO said:
"I was not aware that Trayvon was murdered a year ago last February."


No where was that stated. Can you copy and paste where you think that it says that in the article? Actually Phil: the last line you complained about actually says “He resigned in February, about a year after Trayvon Martin’s death.” If you wiki the death of the lad, it says"

"The fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman took place on the night of February 26, 2012"

Which would indicate, per the artical I quoted, that the police chief dude resigned in Feb like they say, Feb 2013- a year AFTER Martin was shot.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
"He resigned in February, about a year after Trayvon Martin’s death". And I was wrong, it was my own mental time warp. Sorry for the confusion I stand corrected.

See how easy that was Ron.

What's funny Ron is that you and a few (very few) others can stamp your feet in a tantrum if any opposing views state a possibility that you don't think was in the trail but then you and a few others can go off the wall lying bigger and bigger lies. Awesome Republicans one and all.

Now among other wingnut fallacies and fantasies Zimmerman is black, white, hispanic.
And Trayvon was a strung out junkie with "KILL WHITEY" tattooed across his face.
Character assassination is vulgar at best.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:22pm PT


What about the story? Now that it's been validated by the last sentence not being incorrect.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
One who had not shown any racist tenancies according to those that lived by him. GZ being a mix of Black, White and Mexican..


Hi Ron,

I don't believe George Zimmerman's ethnic heritage included Mexican.

His racial derivation was White, Black (his maternal great grandfather) and (Peruvian) Indian.

In his childhood, Spanish was spoken in the household except when his father was present.

Mr Zimmerman mocked Mexicans on his Facebook account.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
Ditzominoshitz you say? thats the guy.

I seen him for decades, a professor of Law at some nohting university wasn't he?
He has a certain accredited standing in someplace, somewhere -- certain circles, or so I once heard it said somewhere.

are you serious?

you can't spell his name, you don't know where he is a Law Professor

and you once heard it....somewhere

and you conclude, from this all you know,,,,something, maybe a liberal?

hardly
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
Nice guy Mr. Zimmerman..hated Mexicans and call his ex a hoe..lied about injuries and shot a kid dead because he couldn't defend himself against a 17 year kid.

http://jezebel.com/5907051/george-zimmerman-called-women-hoes-and-mexicans-thugs-on-his-myspace-page
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
Ron A The Gallant Gallstone is a broken record.


Couch, the article is interesting and disturbing but given the shady character of the Cop you have to ask yourself WTF? was really going on.
abrams

Sport climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
Facebook says 'Zimmerman must Die'page does not violate its community standards!

Fb lawyers should call Zuck and remind him its a Class A felony to solicit murder.

http://www.examiner.com/article/facebook-says-zimmerman-must-die-does-not-violate-community-standards

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zimmerman-Must-Die/194772994020771



Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
Ron wrote: hey bobda, if they ever research YOU for some crime, the pages here will reflect what about you? ROFLMAO!


And for you it will reflect that you have nothing but air between your ears.

abrams

Sport climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
This snaps that issue into focus.

"If political incorrectness can violate Facebook’s 'Community Standards'
but advocating someone’s death does not,
then it has become a social media site
that engages in viewpoint discrimination
while allowing itself to be used as a platform to advocate murder,".


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
Oh Lawdy Lawdy Lawd this thread has jumped the shark.

If Paul Revere would have ridden through their town these days they would have shot him..
Well at least we could thank you for our unfettered access to guns eh?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 22, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Do I see a Jeff Foxworthy sign in your avatar picture?

oh yeah, i am a closet redneck

you?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 22, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Nice guy Mr. Zimmerman . . . shot a kid dead because he couldn't defend himself against a 17 year kid.
He actually did defend himself against the 17-year old; whether he did so properly is another matter.
If you mean he couldn't defend himself with his fists, that's true, but there are plenty of 17-old kids out there who would be fully capable of beating you (or virtually any ST poster) to a bloody pulp, and would be more than happy to do so in the right circumstances.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
No question. Ron knows what really happened.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
and we know from your reading of the ME you're no brain surgeon.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 22, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
I know more than obama abut the ME.

I see...

and you sit in on the daily national security briefings too?

my goodness but you are an ignorant and arrogant horse's ass
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
my bad. I'm talking about your reading of the ME's report. but I've no doubt you know more than Obama about the mideast, just like you know more than the ME.

you sir are the consumate comedian.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Ron wrote: and im going to contact face fuggin book asap. un-real..


Nothing but hot air. From the guy who "shoots people".


My offer to meet wasn't a threat, I just want to see if you are breathing on your own.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Blah wrote: He actually did defend himself against the 17-year old; whether he did so properly is another matter.
If you mean he couldn't defend himself with his fists, that's true, but there are plenty of 17-old kids out there who would be fully capable of beating you (or virtually any ST poster) to a bloody pulp, and would be more than happy to do so in the right circumstances.


Problem is/was he wasn't getting beat to a bloody pulp...read Jennie posts.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
You love the attention Ron...it all that you can get these days.

Ron=Fattrad
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
Ron, FaceStupidity, and other right wing dipshits:

NEWSFLASH: race DOES matter and it is CONSERVATIVE (notice how I didn't day "Republican"?) in nature.

And none of your history denialism changes that. Racism did not END 50 years ago.

And yet, you defensive dumshits get apoplectic when one black man--our President--DARE shares, honestly, what he and many other black people have experienced.

You guys aren't different from the holocaust denialists.

Absolutely pathetic and shameful.

People like you are why America is still running in place.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
+1^^^^^^^^
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
Page after page of people being desperate to dehumanize Treyvon in an attempt to justify his death. I will post it again: if it was a justifiable killing then the victim could have been Jesus and all you'd have to do was post the facts. Instead of posting the facts you guys have to make "Grape Drank" jokes (sup, Chaz!), pretend the kid's gold teeth was "meth-mouth" (Chaz again! Keepin it classy!) and invent things about the kid's liver (Ron "jEEEbus lern too read a hepatopathalolobology reprot,,,,,," Anderson) to try to make his life so worthless that it justifies his death.

I can easily point to mistakes that Treyvon made that lead to his death. He made some bad choices, no doubt. None of them deserving of death. Zimmerman made some truly awful judgement calls himself and he deserves to be reminded of them every day he takes a breath. Is it that hard for you guys to make reasonable, fact based arguments that you have to invent..er..parrot idiotic and genuinely racist and dehumanizing insults about a dead child? Is it not enough that the poor kid is dead that you don't have to sh#t on his grave too?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Except GZ was acquitted of 2nd degree murder and there is no evidence to support any claim of racism in this tragedy.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
OJ was acquitted as well.

Who here thinks OJ did not kill Nicole and Goldman?

Jurors can always use 'reasonable' doubt to justify an acquittal if they so desire.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Interesting point Mono. Based on what I know of the GZ trial I believe there is reasonable doubt GZ is guilty of either manslaughter or 2nd degree murder. Were I on that jury I would have voted not guilty.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Jensh#t, you are a racist puke. People like you are the problem. GFYS, preferably with a cactus.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Joe, just because racists support GZ doesn't mean GZ is racist. Try again.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
"Joe, just because racists support GZ doesn't mean GZ is racist. Try again."

And from nothing I wrote could you infer that. Fail

Classic. Right wingers deflecting their own guilt and complicity, this time on Joe.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
"Joe, just because racists support GZ doesn't mean GZ is racist. Try again."

And from nothing I wrote could you logically infer that. Fail.

Good. I'm glad we agree this case is not about racism.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Ron you sound like my kid at about 9 maybe 10 -- I can do two things at once.

Then why do you complain about business being down?

I haven't worked in eight years & I make more money now than ever.

When I built my business it took a few year of 10-16 hours, 7 days week.

After I got it up and running profitably it only took 10 - 12 hours, 6 days a week to keep it going.

During my work time there was NO time for anything else.

Anything less and you are weak & deserve not to be doing well.

AND IT'S NOBODIES FAULT BUT YOURS.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
Joe, I have no idea who that guy is, but it's certainly not GZ.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
Dropline, you can figure it out. It's completely relevant.

Hint: start with google images, then read originating article.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
What are you babbling about now?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
prove your sh#t or STFU
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Prove what? You guys are pretty much just ranting now.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
Joe, seriously, you might want to consider a mental health checkup.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
was not referring to you, dropline
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
You know the sad part is Ron, is a deep reservoir of ( forest - practical) knowledge. Then he lets is what ever get in the way, & then he says some really stupid & hurtful garbage.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
Wbraun - have a tough day today?

Slow down on the drinking.

Peoples lives depend on you.

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
"prove your sh#t or STFU"


And PUT A FUKKING NAME ON IT, or STFU

So sick of you anonymous gutless cowards spewing your hatred from the safety of your anonymous keyboard


To ashamed to put a name to your cowardice? Can't blame you there. But don't pretend you're anything more than that - a coward.

And who the fuk is "Dropline"? Who is this who calls me out by name, but won't put his up?


Seriously, "Dropline" - don't you feel weird, addressing me as Joe, when I have no idea who you are?

I don't feel weird about it at all. You've chosen to use your real name. That's your choice of course but in my opinion it's unwise. There are too many crazies out there. And I'm not saying anything hateful. I think it's you that has periodically said that certain people who disagree with you, or the way you think, should be eliminated, killed.

So really, you seem to get so upset here, that I thought a mental health checkup might be in order. Life is crazy, and sometimes it makes us all crazy. If you are experiencing rage often, and intensely, as you seem to, it's not healthy. Try to relax.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 22, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
Dropline said
Except GZ was acquitted of 2nd degree murder and there is no evidence to support any claim of racism in this tragedy.

Except for that it speaks to the greater injustices that are committed daily in this country. Young black men are heavily profiled against. Treyvon made no action that made him suspicious. Zimmerman didn't see him peering in someone's window or swipe something from a store. He just saw the kid walking down the street and called the cops. You may argue, even rightly, that Zimmerman wasn't profiling Martin's race...we can't actually know what is in his head. But the vehemence at which people argue that we shouldn't talk about racial profiling and the heavy weight of the justice system against minorities in this country just speaks louder about the fact that those injustices exist.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" would be the proper quote.

The insult is further deepened by the idea that someone can simply stalk another person in an aggressive and threatening manner, and then when confronted for his actions simply kill the target of his pursuit and walk away a free man seems a little much to bear.

But it's all legal so it's all cool.

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jul 22, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
I'm not saying it's all cool. I'm saying he wasn't guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and racism didn't seem to play any role in the dynamic between TM and GZ.

Nor am I saying we shouldn't talk about racism, or profiling. We should. And the fault lines laid bare by this case make it a great time to do so.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
OMG Ron's roids are flaring. Where is Obama's outrage?

And Manzanitass ever heard about socioeconomics?
What is the unemployment rate for young blacks?


You racist mother f*#ker!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 22, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 22, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
Those FBI stats didn't cover socioeconomic factors. Do you understand THAT dumbass?

Whites don't rape blacks. Interesting claim, Manzanita Man. Good luck with that one.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 22, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
3 million plus views on how to make Skittles Vodka!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Would not have guessed this alternative use until today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52wyHATgHyE



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Why are BOOBS banned but racist are allowed to loiter here spewing their ignorant cracker hate?

CMac this isn't acceptable.


monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
You two really stepped in it big time in Chaz's trap. Do a google search.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
"i have already posted fbi stats on here, look it up. here is 1, 35,000 black on white rapes compared to 0 white on black rapes each year. do you understand THAT dumbass."

What a ignorant little slime...Whites raped black women at will for hundreds of years and got away with it.

This tread need to be deleted now.

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
Manzanita Man really believes the whites don't rape blacks idiocy.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
Why are BOOBS banned but racist are allowed to loiter here spewing their ignorant cracker hate?

CMac this isn't acceptable.

You really can't decipher between nudity and free-speech? Maybe it's you that has the problem.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
You really can't decipher between nudity and free-speech?

So "nudity" is evil but hate speech is okiedokie. And your cool with that?

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
Hey Ron if it had been my shower shot it would have blown out the sidewall.

That is just a nipple for all you puritans.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
Can you imagine actually going climbing with someone as stupid as the racists on this thread?

Actually letting one of them belay you, or assuming they had the basic intel required to stay alive more than 30' off the deck?


Not a single one of them has ever progressed beyond the sub-beginner climbing level - obviously


So what are they doing here?

That must be the stupidest thing I've heard, second only to Al Sharptongue. WTF? You won't allow someone to belay you because of their feelings on the Martin case?

Weird sh#t...


Ah! Perfect example. Bluering.

I probably exceeded your entire lifetime Yosemite climbing resume on my first trip to the Valley, with the local YMCA, in 1974.


Yet you feel you belong here...why?

What's yer point?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
I would not let any one of you Crackerasses belay me if my life depended on it.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
MM, since whites do rape blacks, and Al hasn't gone ballistic over them, you might want to reconsider how deeply you've run off the tracks.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:24pm PT

Or rather, the stupidity you and your ilk continually display. No, i wouldn't let someone as stupid as you walk my dog, let alone belay me.

Seriously - should I? How much more proof do we need here?

That's your own perogative, and your right! I was just trying to gauge how shallow and judgmental you were. That's all.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
The founding father of white rapists...http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-brief-account


Proud American Heritage.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
That this forum consists of Yosemite veterans. And that there's no way someone as stupid as you could possibly have lived long enough to attain that status. Therefore you deserve to be treated with the same exclusion your racist posts advocate treating others.

Bye, as#@&%e.

Dipshit sub-human non-climber - LEAVE


Well, I've been climbing roughly as long as the proprietor of this site. Maybe we should discriminate more on this site, huh, as#@&%e?

Maybe we should 'profile people', and maybe 'classify' them here.

Who's the f*#king as#@&%e here? Ask yourself that! You as#@&%es come off as all-endearing until you meet someone who doesn't like your opinion. Then you go Nazi on them.

F*#k you!

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
Mazanita Man, what's your definition of a black?

BTW, the FBI doesn't keep stats on interracial rape, so your figures are bogus.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
"fuQ shcmoe hedge,, this is a CLIMBERS FORUM JERKSTRAP. KNOTT a Yosemite forum. When the hell did you last climb"


Hahahaha, I'd be too ashamed to admit if 2 weeks of my time in the Valley equalled your entire resume - so would any real climber, dipsh#t, and you know it.

Hahahahaha - just another fake poser, wishing he belonged here - just like Fattrad.

In your discriminatory profiling of climber skills, who should be allowed to peruse McNamara's site? Only Valley climbers? Only J-tree folks? Only 5-10 climbers (which I climb)?

Are you the arbiter? Or are you just trying to 'puff your chest'. Some men don't need to do that...
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
This is comedy. A left/ right wingnut bs slugfest. Carry on.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Manzanita...we know where you get your "facts"...http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t632618-2/

You folks are really sick.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
The Myth of the Black Rapist

Myth: Black men target White women to sexually assault.

Fact: 93% of all sexual assaults are intra-racial. This means that White men are the primary perpetrators of sexualized violence against White women, and likewise African-American women and women of color are most commonly assaulted by African-American men and men of color. Of the 7% of sexual assaults that are interracial, 3.4% involve the assault of a Black woman by a White man, while 3.3% involve the assault of a White woman by a Black man (Menachem Amir, criminologist, 1991).

The myth of Black men targeting White women to sexually assault is based on a racist belief system. The myth of the Black rapist was created during Reconstruction to justify the lynching of Black men. Today, lynching is much less common, yet the myth of the Black rapist still permeates our culture.

http://sapac.umich.edu/article/55

The 35,000 myth debunked here:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/reading-while-white-black-rape-statistics/
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Manzanita wrote: bob, wow, you had to go back that far. i asked in the last 5 years. how about the last 10? bring me something or STFU.


Your stats are bogus...just like you.

Show me stats from the FBI website to back up your claims..not from some neo-nazi white power website.

You are a sick little man.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 22, 2013 - 11:51pm PT

And most children grow out of trying to pretend they're something they're not, and never will be.

I never did that, maybe you did!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 12:15am PT
Manzanita...still waiting.

Mono handed you your ass you racist slime.


monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 12:45am PT
Oh, it's the table 42 myth.

Here's how they manipulate table 42 to create their lies:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/reading-while-white-black-rape-statistics/
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 12:49am PT
Hey Manzanita Man:

How could there be 35K black on white rapes each year, when only 5708 blacks were arrested for forcible rape in 2007.

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/04/03/black-rape-statistics/
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:03am PT
If you google rape, you get 59 million hits.

No one's willing to wade thru all the hits to satisfy some racist clown who can't back up his stats.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:13am PT
^^^ Word!
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:14am PT
It is slightly interesting if you can't find one reported case of a white man raping a black woman in the past 5 years; did you look?
No racism here and I think it's crazy to contend to that white men never rape black women anymore, I'm just curious.

Oh, back to Zimmerman, I was watching Hannity this evening--he had an interview with one of the alternate jurors, he thought Zimmerman was not guilty too (and it was clear from the interview that he though he was actually innocent, not just "not proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.")

So much for the theory that it was all women's fault.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:22am PT
The alternate juror wasn't identified by name (just a code) and his image was darkened so you couldn't really see him.
He said he was concerned about his safety, but didn't seem paranoid.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:24am PT
jghedge writes:

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."


"Would like to point out that on many mainstream right-wing forums, you'd get banned for posting this. RedState, TownHall etc do not tolerate overtly racist comments.
Why is this filth tolerated here? What does it really take, beyond this, to get banned for racist comments?"






Racist? Filth?

Wake up, jghedge! Pull your head out. JESSEE JACKSON said that. ( I thought everyone knew that ) I just copied and pasted it, from Jackson's own website. ( google it, and you'll see )

A little research on your part would go a long f*#king way.

Joke's on you, Dumbshit! Bwaaahaaahaaaaa!!!!111 Looks like you betrayed your ignorance once again...unless, of course, displaying your ignorance is your reason for being here.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:24am PT

"So much for the theory that it was all women's fault."


Proving, of course, that no other alternates thought otherwise

As well as proving that you'd get held back from 4th grade for making assumptions a 2nd grader would see through

OK, the theory that "it's all women's fault" is much alive in the mind of hedge (notwithstanding a male (alternate) juror's statement that he thought Zimm wasn't guilty).
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:40am PT
"OK, the theory that "it's all women's fault" is much alive in the mind of hedge (notwithstanding a male (alternate) juror's statement that he thought Zimm wasn't guilty)."


Hahahaha, hey idiot - I have no idea if the alternates were male or female

You don't know that "he" is a masculine pronoun? Go back and read my first post on the alternate juror on Hannity, note the use of the word "he," and try to put 2+2 together.
Since you like commenting on education level, I've got you back in kindergarten, at best--you probably should have been held back in preschool.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:36am PT
Manzanita the Racist Man spewed
Here are some interracial rape statistics compiled by the U.S. Department of Justice.

U.S. Justice Department 2006 rape statistics URL: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus0602.pdf
Scroll to Table 42. --> 32,443 White women raped by Negro men, zero Negro women raped by White men.


Fist of all, in addition to your link being invented, who the f*#k refers to African-Americans as "negroes?" Are you 90 years old? If you're 90 I might forgive you but I don't think you're 90 I think you're just a bigoted as#@&%e.

Second of all...
























...YOUR POST IS A DIRECT COPY AND PASTE FROM A STORMFRONT.COM THREAD!

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t546845/


If this was a "campfire" like Chris Mac wants the forum to be I guess we'd know which guy was burning crosses instead of firewood.

You're either a huge troll or a huge white supremacist. Either way, get out.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:37am PT
Climbing thread alert! Another thread, Bryan (climbing with Mickey) did a great Skull Queen write up. Nice photos too. It has 4 posts, is much nice than this POS thread that has over 2,000...so far.




Has climbing pictures too, unlike this crap thread.

Jus sayin is all.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:38am PT
"Birds of feather flock together" Manzanita and the rest of his ilk are what is wrong with America...filled with hate.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:43am PT

^^^ Wow, I never saw that before

Me neither. Strong family resemblance, even several generations later.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:44am PT
They have a guy quoting straight up white power on their side and not one of them has expressed concern with that? Geeze, wonder why.


At best they are racism denialists, similar to the Holocaust denialists.

At worst...


...YOUR POST IS A DIRECT COPY AND PASTE FROM A STORMFRONT.COM THREAD!

Not surprising.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
jghedge,

You act as if you've never heard of Google. ( remember that Jesse Jackson quote last night? hehehehe ) If you see a stat or a quote that looks incredible, double check it. Look it up. Start on Google, and then work outward.

You seem to be working especially hard at trying not to understand things.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
^^^ a little mirroring Chaz?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
Accurate crime statistics have a well known racist bias. How else would you explain the huge differences in crime among the races?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
And Chaz, Ron and the rest of racist crew still have not condemn Manzanita for his posts and links from a racist, neo-nazi site.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
I double-checked his numbers, and they checked out as accurate. Google took me straight to the US DOJ website.

How do you explain the population density differences among the races, then?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
Which numbers, Chaz?

Manzanita Man claimed 35K white women are raped by blacks each year, and zero black women are raped by whites.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
I'd like to hear you try to explain it!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Did your parents block "google" on your computer?

I'm trying to teach you how to fish here. You seem to be too conditioned to having others do your fishing for you.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Fun thread!

I'm glad that it's devolved into a racial rape conversation!

Strong work on staying intellectual!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Joe wrote: By the fact that societal racial discrimination has concentrated racial minorities into impoverished urban areas. You really need that explained to you?


Ghettos and Reservations same thing, same issues and same crimes bought on by societal racial discrimination. What is so hard to understand about that?


These racist on this tread are really a disgusting lot.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
BTW, Chaz, your trusted source for statistics, Manzanita Man, is no longer with us.

It's up to you now, to support his claim that no black women have been raped by white guys in years.

You did say his stats were accurate, right?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Chaz said
Accurate crime statistics have a well known racist bias. How else would you explain the huge differences in crime among the races?


So....you're saying that accurate statistics are racially biased? Isn't that saying that accurate statistics aren't accurate?


I think that what you're TRYING to say is that there is a statistical difference in crime rates committed by people of different races. Those statistics don't "explain" anything, much less "the huge difference in crime among the races." They may SHOW a difference in crime, but they don't "explain" it. Statistics don't explain themselves, they are just an expression of data.

Now the way that data is collected can, and usually is, biased in some way.

Thousands of people go to jail every year for petty thefts. Many of those people are people of color. They also tend to be poor and poor people are more likely to be people of color than not poor people.

Almost nobody goes to jail for stealing millions of dollars from corporations or the government.

People with little means committing little crimes go to jail. People with huge means committing huge crimes don't go to jail. Is that because the crimes weren't committed? Or is it because the system is much, much more likely to arrest, try and convict someone who is poor and not white as it is someone who is wealthy and white?

I would love to know the actual number of white people who possess drugs and are arrested for it compared to the number of non-white people who possess and are arrested. It's not a terribly knowable number, but it would be quite illuminating.

So, Chaz. I've answered your question in earnest. I even turned it from an English teacher's nightmare into an answerable question for you. So now please do me the courtesy of answering my question:

What was your purpose for stating that statistics show people of different races commit a different number of crimes? Because it sure SEEMS like your intent is to say "non-white people commit more crime than white people and thus are worse," but since you haven't directly referenced StormFront I will give you the opportunity to defend yourself instead of making the obvious conclusion.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Good riddance...Member profile information for manzanita man is shown below. This member's account has been deactivated.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Thread should be titled " Florida stand your ground...WINGNUTS rejoice! "
Seriously this is what is wrong with this country/world. The left loonies and right nutjobs are constantly spewing hate from both sides of the pulpit. Extremists suck.


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Bob posted
Good riddance...Member profile information for manzanita man is shown below. This member's account has been deactivated.

Yeah this thread turned into a racist honeypot. It made me 5 minutes late to work this morning, but it was worth it to actually do the research to find out that he was a full blown white supremacist (and an incredibly lazy one at that).
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
You've put up nasty posts before, Anderson. You know it.
nutjob

Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
The left loonies and right nutjobs are...

Maybe it's time to change my avatar
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Good riddance...Member profile information for manzanita man is shown below. This member's account has been deactivated.

another one gone

joining rSin on Sunday when he bit the dust




who's next?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
Because, Ron, we are all cool with you masturbating so long as you don't post pics.



*edit*

rSin got booted? How did he get booted before Manzanita? Still. Can't say I'm upset. Bring Fatty back. At least he bothered with facts.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
Anderson wants the ban level set just above his nasties.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Also, Ron doesn't seem to understand the difference between being mean and being horribly, horribly racist but seeing as he has said that he discriminates all the time and doesn't see a problem with it I suppose I can see why.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Monolith writes:

"It's up to you now, to support his claim that no black women have been raped by white guys in years.
You did say his stats were accurate, right?"





That's not what was claimed. The number was for a single year, 2006, if I remember. It can be looked up. You don't have to trust me, you can look it up too.

My reasons for looking into it are at least twofold. First, it's an incredible stat, and when I see something like that, I will double check it. So I did.

Second, I figured if it did check out, it would be a perfect example of statistics being used to advance anything, no matter how unreasonable.

I think using numbers to account for individuals, engaged in actions as individuals, for reasons as unique as a fingerprint, and then lumping them all into one group is foolish. And this is the perfect example.

Other good examples are the stats jghedge finds and pastes here to push his asinine gun control arguments.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Fatty looks like Mother Theresa next to Rsin and Manzanita.

As to Ron...I think he craves the attention...playing with dead animals all day must do strange things to a person.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
"Maybe it's time to change my avatar"

He said "right" nutjobs not "wrong" nutjobs. I think you are good.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Bullsh#t, Chaz. MM said there were no rapes of black women by whites in years and challenged us to find one.

I did look it up, Chaz. You fell for table 42, didn't ya?
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
nutjob...thanks for the laugh..

ps for your question.........Halloween rock'n roll, with cameo by .. Things cousin..(-;

edit: hey..where did you go?



edit: Bob,D,.. I'm sure Crimper girl, knows the real info. and answer.



Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Chaz...you are losing face quickly. Really sad. Manzanita was a racist and you continue to back up his false claims.

Give us a link.

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
You got 20K+ posts, in 4 years, Anderson. I don't want to go wade thru some of your filth. Lets just say, it involves drinking and male anatomy.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
You're missing my point, Monolith, and Bob.

I don't give a damn who rapes who.

I'm saying this is a perfect example of how one can gather numbers together in the right grouping to advance any point one wishes, no matter how unreasonable.



Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
Ron's Muslim brotherhood rants are filth, just like his Trayvon rants and the crap that he post on daily basis would make most normal people head spin in disbelief...we are just use to his crap here on this site.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
One vile white suprema-racist down. Good and about time. My confidence in CMac's integrity has been restored I will call off the Dogs of War.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
The subject here is you!

I've had you hooked since last night.

Your asinine gun control stats are no more applicable to reality than those rape statistics. Same with global warming numbers.

Numbers all add up to nuthin'.

Individuals do things for reasons as varied as our fingerprints. If you want to divide individuals into groups based on their outward appearance, go ahead. Leave me out.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Proud of this post of mine that expose that little slime...thanks to High DesertDJ and Monolith for their posts exposing the slime.

Jul 22, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Manzanita...we know where you get your "facts"...http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t632618-2/

You folks are really sick.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Chaz wrote: You're missing my point, Monolith, and Bob.

I don't give a damn who rapes who.

I'm saying this is a perfect example of how one can gather numbers together in the right grouping to advance any point one wishes, no matter how unreasonable.


No Chaz you are missing the point...the numbers don't exist...only in the hate-filled mind of a sick group of people.

You defended the numbers without ever getting the facts. You said you got the numbers from the FBI site..they do not exist.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
You defended the numbers without ever getting the facts. You said you got the numbers from the FBI site..they do not exist.

A mere lack of facts is simply not enough.


MM said some of the vilest crap ever posted on this forum including calling for shooting Blacks on sight. He had no business here and I wished he would have been booted sooner. Just glad he for one is no longer invited to the camp fire. There are a few others who should take note and learn from this to curb their forked tongues.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
norton, go back and read mazanita man's sick posts....I don't recall rsin saying the n- word.



ps........ hey tacoheads....it is possible to argue your points without name calling.


edit: Thanks Dirtbag... i wasn't reading everything posted on this thread....too toxic for me.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Nita, rsin said it more than once.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
Nita, yes absolutely it is possible when dealing with the reasonable and reasonably intelligent.

But there are times when you got to call a cracker a cracker. I am sorry for my own nastiness but some things must not be abided.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
Here is a classic from Manzanita Man....really sick.

bob, wow, you had to go back that far. i asked in the last 5 years. how about the last 10? bring me something or STFU.

blacks dont scream rape unless the check bounces. must not have been any bounced checks.

Ron and Chaz defended this slime.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Bob there were others as well. I hope they see the writing on the wall now.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
Racism is not welcome here. It's not tolerated.

Ron, that was a general statement,not meant for you specifically.

I still haven't figured out if you're racist, or just ignorant of the world around you.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
Ron wrote: Excuse me bobda you lying as#@&%e,, but you better PROVE where i defended anyone other than myself.


You never once call the slime out for his racist posts. You wanted Joe banned but never once condemn that slime for his remarks.

You and your type are the problem with America...ignorant to core.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Bob D'a writes:

"Ron and Chaz defended this slime."



You misunderstood everything! Right over your head it went.

You must be having a bad day, you're normally sharper than that.
neversummer

climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Chaz wrote: Jul 23, 2013 - 10:42am PT
**I double-checked his numbers, and they checked out as accurate. Google took me straight to the US DOJ website.
**
How do you explain the population density differences among the races, then?


So what when over my head???


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
Back pedaling is so common amongst the 'wrong' wingers that it is a good thing they aren't riding fixed gear bikes.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
DrF is a genuine asset on the forum. Farouk is an asset minus the letters et.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Farouk, you poor child. That screenshot is old.

Since this thread has devolved into a junkshow, I'll tell you this; I miss you little guy. Why don't you ever call? I miss your musk, it reminds me of pork rinds and freezer burn. I miss it.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:22pm PT



Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal

Jul 23, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
"test test four -thaaree-twoo-onnnnee Testing"




Nope.. still here...

Why do you assume you are next?

Couldn't be anything you say...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
Ron can't tell that there is a difference between intelligent conservative dialogue and rampant babble, rhetoric, hate and lies.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
Ron wrote: geee, a site full of liberals, moderated by liberals, and its mostly conservatives that bite the dust.. Kinda like the IRS....


And Ron continues to blame others for the actions of Rsin and Manzanita.

I'll let you in something Rong...they got ban by their own doing.


And Rong still hasn't condemn the posts of Manzanita or Rzin
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
VUUUHGYYYNUUHHHHH

What does that mean in English?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Ron there is nothing at all wrong with saying (or posting) a word like Vagina. Do they scare you?
It is the spewing dogma hate and lies that are the problem.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Bob D'A writes:

"So what when over my head???"




One more time, just for you, Bob. This "when" over your head:

"I think using numbers to account for individuals, engaged in actions as individuals, for reasons as unique as a fingerprint, and then lumping them all into one group is foolish. And this is the perfect example."

"I'm saying this is a perfect example of how one can gather numbers together in the right grouping to advance any point one wishes, no matter how unreasonable."

I don't know how much more clear I could have made it for you. Too bad I must have caught you on a down day, or something.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Rong is blowing a gasket. :-)
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
Chaz it didn't go over my head...you say the FBI numbers existed and they didn't...you never once condemn the Manzanita Man for his posts...you agreed that the numbers/data existed.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:32pm PT

Rong is blowing a gasket. :-)
No that would be a Jackalope. :-)
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
One more thing "when" over your head:

"Numbers all add up to nuthin'" which is my whole point in a sentence.

Thanks, Neil Young!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
rSin was curious. Sometimes he actually appeared lucid. Other times it was a WTF post. I wondered if he was posting from a Smartphone and had fat thumbs.


And Chaz here is a number that did add up to something; one. One less white suprma-racist on the forum. Thanks CMac!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Try harder.


Ron sometimes you come across like a guy insisting on his right to do an aid nailup of the 1st pitch of Serenity Crack. Though the climbing world has long ago embraced clean climbing you insist on clinging to a discredited past.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
Chaz wrote: One more thing "when" over your head:

"Numbers all add up to nuthin'" which is my whole point in a sentence.


Numbers do add when the data is collected and use in a honest scientific way.


Happens all the time.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
I miss you Farouk. Why can't we just tell everybody about us? I'm tired of keeping this special secret.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
Bob D'A writes:

"Numbers do add when the data is collected and use in a honest scientific way."



When you have millions of free people all doing their own individual thing for their own unique reasons, grouping them together based on something as superficial and broad as race serves no purpose. Worse, will almost always be used as a reason to deceive.

Most people don't give a damn what someone's race is, because it serves no useful purpose.


BTW, Barack Obama was all in favor of SYG back when he was Illinois State Senator Obama. Voted "yes" on that one. Not "present".
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
BTW, Barack Obama was all in favor of SYG back when he was Illinois State Senator Obama. Voted "yes" on that one. Not "present".

good for him!

He also signed into law more pro gun legislation than any President in decades.

He lied to the those who thought he would be "soft" on criminals.

Just as Osama
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
Chaz wrote: When you have millions of free people all doing their own individual thing for their own unique reasons, grouping them together based on something as superficial and broad as race serves no purpose.


Which the FBI does not do...that is the point that really goes over your head.

Manzanita was using his own distorted numbers to further his sick little agenda...you took the bait, hook, line and sinker.

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Good one Chaz, except Illinois does not have a Florida type stand your ground law.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Illinois-Does-Not-Have-A-Stand-Your-Ground-Law-216605471.html
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
BWAAAHAHA
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
SB2386

Look it up.

You'll note I wrote "all in favor of SYG", which is exactly what his co-sponsorship demonstrates.

I'm getting tired of having to write things twice. How about you just read twice, if that's what it takes?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
I did, nothing like Florida's law.

Explained in link above.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Damn Chaz...do you ever try and find real facts??

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/07/22/no_president_obama_didn_t_support_a_stand_your_ground_law_in_illinois.html

"Castle Doctrine" Chaz...not the same as SYG.

Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
Cmac should ban all BULLIES regardless of political leanings
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
I did look it up

Actually, Senator Obama co-sponsored the bill, and the bill was to strengthen already-existing self-defense legislation.

The Illinois self-defense law is nothing like "Stand your ground" laws in other states, and actually falls into the "castle doctrine" of law that only allows you to use deadly force to protect yourself inside of your home. States like Florida take the concept of the "castle doctrine" and turn it into a traveling force field of sorts with their "Stand your ground" laws. They did so because they believe that not only should people have the right to defend themselves in their homes, they should have the right to defend themselves and/or others outside of their homes
http://www.experienceproject.com/question-answer/In-2004-Illinois-State-Senator-Barry-Obama-Sponsored-A-Stand-Your-Ground-Bill-(SB-2386)/2204064


your attempt to say Illinois and Florida laws are identical on this is flat wrong

but good of you to point out how the President supported strengthening this law!

oh, you meant your post as somehow a criticism of the President didn't you?

oops, that didn't go very well
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
The stand your ground laws are going nowhere. SYG was not invoked in the Trayvon case.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
SYG instructions were read to the jury.

Funny how many people are missing Manzanita Man already.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Did the jury get instructed to take race into consideration?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
That's so clever, Chaz. I guess you are conceding that SYG was a part of the case.

Anderson again shows his ignorance. Look up the jury instructions.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:21pm PT


Dave Weigel writing for Slate says: No, President Obama Didn’t Support a “Stand Your Ground” Law in Illinois. He says this comparing what he says is the Illinois law that was amended by SB 2386. He says:

No: “Stand your ground” is substantively different than what Obama backed in Illinois. He backed a tweak to the “castle doctrine,” which reads like this:

A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with her real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property, lawfully in his possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect.

“Stand your ground” takes the concept of the castle doctrine and turns it into a traveling force field of sorts. Here’s Florida’s language:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

It’s a pretty obvious difference, which probably means that the “Obama used to support this” theory is essentially trolling.



Public Act 093-0832 has 3 sections, each of which were amended by SB 2386. Weigel quotes section 3, but ignores section 1 which states:

Sec. 7-1. Use of force in defense of person.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.

Nothing in either section 3 (quoted by Weigel) or section 1 (quoted above) mentions any limitation of place. Weigel is saying that section 3 is tied to place because he says Stand Your Ground becomes a “traveling force field of sorts”. The only section of the Illinois law that is tied to place is section 2 which says:

Sec. 7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:

(1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon, or offer of personal violence to, him or another then in the dwelling, or

(2) He reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

Only Section 2 actually relates to a “Castle Doctrine”. Only Section 2 is tied to a place. All three sections were amended by the same wording from SB 2386:

In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of “aggressor” set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.

The law does not state a duty to retreat, therefore in Illinois there is no duty to retreat. Illinois is one of 33 states with no duty to retreat. No duty to retreat IS Stand Your Ground.

Links: SB 2386 Public Act 093-0832, 720
http://musing-minds.com/2013/07/23/im-sorry-dave-you-got-it-wrong/

I know, it doesn't matter. It's not from Huffington, so must be a lie.


monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
No mention of "no duty to retreat", Dirt Claude

Anderson, the jury has to consider the law. It was a part of the case. mmk?
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
"The law does not state a duty to retreat, therefore in Illinois there is no duty to retreat. Illinois is one of 33 states with no duty to retreat. No duty to retreat IS Stand Your Ground."
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
There we go...back on track. One would assume the debate in a thread titled Florida Stand Your Ground Law would focus on the Stand Your Ground law and not the off topic pontification that so many here seem to excel at.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
SYG instructions were read to the jury.
True, but at least somewhat misleading unless you read the entire instruction relating to self defense. The "SYG" portion was simply one paragraph that was worked into general instructions related to self defense, and they had no particular relevance to anything that was argued by either the prosecutor or the defense.
Who knows why the judge put them in, and whether it was in response to one or both side's request.
It may be surprising to non-lawyers, but state court (as opposed to many federal) judges such as the one who presided over the Zimm case are typically not any sort of real legal scholar or even an expert on much of anything (except sometimes whacky local procedural rules); they're often kinda yokels who gave money to the right politicians or won a silly local election (depending on the state).
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
That's not how the jurors felt.

The SYG portion read to the jury has the "no requirement to retreat clause", the basis of SYG.

Blahblah, silly boy, the judge read them to the jury cuz it's required by Florida law in these cases.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
That's not how the jurors felt.

Blahblah, silly boy, the judge read them to the jury cuz it's required by Florida law.

Florida has lots of laws my friend, they're not all read to the jury in every case, only the ones that have some relevance to the case are included.
Unless somehow Florida selects jury instructions way out of the mainstream of American law (which I doubt), the judge decides which ones to include in each case.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
The Florida standard instructions include the "no duty to retreat clause" in these cases.

If the judge did not read them, a higher court would intercede.

And the actual instructions:

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
Now all of a sudden the jurors are smart un-racist human beings who knew what was going on? I thought they were racist and stupid since they acquitted him. That is what the lefties keep claiming. They know better, even though they were not part of the trial listening to the evidence. What is wrong with these woman that let him go?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:52pm PT

If the judge did not read them, a higher court would intercede.
You seem not have read the instructions to the Florida's Standard Jury Instructions:
"Because there are many defenses applicable to self-defense, give only those parts of the instructions that are required by the evidence."


Some of the instructions related to self defense are prefaced by the instruction "Read in all cases."
The SYG instructions are not so prefaced, meaning there are some cases where self defense is in issue but the SYG instruction is not properly read.

For whatever reason, the judge decided to read the instruction in this case; doesn't mean the judge was right or that the defense asked for it (but why would the defense object to a generally favorable instruction)?

This really doesn't matter, other than sometimes it's fun to really show someone when he's wrong and drill it down.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
OMG Jessquess's last post was rich.
Rich with the scent of purification.
So who is showing the directed, concerted and sustained hatefest, albiet as a passive-agressive, hiden agenda, backstrabbing sort of way? Was it one of you few (Philo) who hacked others passwords and accounts and posted them?
Now I am a suspected of hacking other users avatars and posting inflammatory rhetoric to besmirch their good character. Wow!! And you don't see why some consider you unhinged? No surprise Ron thought that was a good post.

So if being "Liberal" is equated with staunchly opposing prejudice, racism, misogyny and hate then consider me proudly branded.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
Apparently the judge felt it was necessary in this case, right Blabla?

SYG was a part of this case.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
Why did the judge read the instructions, Anderson?

If the jury felt Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, then they could say Z did something illegal and was not entitled to SYG.

SYG was very much a part of this case.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
Why's that, Rong?
Because, because, because... BenghaziFast&FuriousShowmethebirthcertificate that's why.

There JessQuess I hacked Ron's response. How clever was that.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
Apparently the judge felt it was necessary in this case, right Blabla?

SYG was a part of this case.

Yea, we can agree, you admit that the judge was not required to read the instruction merely because it is a law, despite what your wrote earlier, but the judge felt like it was appropriate in this case for whatever reason (likely that it's hard to see how including an instruction that may or may not have any relevance would be reversible error--we wouldn't want those higher courts to "intercede").
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
You can bet most if not all self-defense cases outside the home are going to get this instruction in Florida.

Give us a self-defense situation outside the home that you feel would not get this instruction.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
If the jury felt Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, then they could say Z did something illegal and was not entitled to SYG.

You're retreating into nonsense again, just when I thought you were coming around. There was never any argument that Z did anything illegal other than pulling the trigger--how would the jury determine if Z was doing something illegal if the prosecution never contended that he was?

You can bet most if not all self-defense cases outside the home are going to get this instruction.
I'd agree with that, it's generally a favorable instruction for the defense, why would it object? This is getting really pedantic and silly--every expert legal commentator agrees that SYG played no meaningful role in this case (although yes, for the umpteenth time, the instruction was there).
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
You forget the cell-phone conversation testimony.

"Get off, Get off"

If the jury believed Z jumped on TM right away, then SYG wouldn't apply for Zimmerman, now would it?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
The cell-phone conversation.

"Get off, Get off"

What was that--a battery of some sort I guess? Is that against the law? Are there are defenses that would make what would otherwise be a battery not against the law?
I don't know, because there is absolutely nothing in the jury instructions for me to conclude that Zimm was doing anything unlawful, other than killing TM.

If the jury believed Z jumped on TM right away, then SYG wouldn't apply for Zimmerman, now would it?

Only sort of. The jury would have to make an inference that Z's "jumping on TM right away" was unlawful, but the prosecution never argued that Z did anything unlawful other than the shooting and there were no jury instructions relating to Z doing anything unlawful.
Also, even if you were right, all it means is that the SYG portion of the jury instruction wouldn't apply--the rest of the self defense portion would apply.
And the defense never argued that the SYG portion applied!!

I hope you can understand now why every knowledgeable commentator agrees that SYG had not real significance to the case, notwithstanding its inclusion in the instuctions. If not, you'll have to take it up with someone else; I've explained it so that anyone who wants to understand, can.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Really, a battery initiating a fight would not be a factor?

Yer knott a much of a lawyer, blahblah, if you are even a lawyer.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
This is priceless and the timing is perfect.

National Review Tells Young Whites To Avoid Blacks, Again
By Zack Beauchamp on Jul 23, 2013 at 4:30 pm
A top conservative publication published a column on Wednesday advising young white children to stay away from black people, despite firing a columnist roughly a year ago for writing a very similar piece in a different publication.
Victor Davis Hanson, a scholar of military history and longtime National Review foreign affairs columnist, has a habit of dipping his toes into racially uncomfortable water. In a past column, for example, Hanson accused President Obama of attempting to victimize white people for political gain.
His column today, however, directly echoes the now-infamous piece by self-described “race-realist” John Derbyshire that National Review deemed a firing offense. Derbyshire’s TakiMag piece, the conceit of which was that the author was giving a white equivalent of “The Talk” that black parents give their children about racism, included gems like “avoid concentrations of blacks not all known to you personally,” “stay out of heavily black neighborhoods,” and “if accosted by a strange black in the street, smile and say something polite but keep moving.”
The thrust of Hanson’s argument — black men are criminals and you should stay away from them, my son — is largely indistinguishable from Derbyshire’s. “Be careful if a group of black youths approaches you,” Hanson quoted his father as saying before a move to San Francisco. “After some first-hand episodes with young African-American males,” he continued, “I offered a similar lecture to my own son.”
Hanson’s piece included some weak caveats seemingly aimed at distinguishing himself from Derbyshire. “Note what [my father] did not say to me. He did not employ language like ‘typical black person.’ He did not advise extra caution about black women, the elderly, or the very young…In other words, the advice was not about race per se, but instead about the tendency of males of one particular age and race to commit an inordinate amount of violent crime.”
This is bollocks. Hanson, like innumerates Richard Cohen and Kathleen Parker before him, is relying on a common mathematical fallacy, called the base rate error, to draw fictitious conclusions about the danger posed by black men. Even if black men are more likely to be violent, and that’s a big if, it still doesn’t follow that all others should avoid them: because the absolute rate of crime is extremely low, any individual black man is almost certainly not going to be a criminal. But, as Ta-Nehisi Coates puts it in a sterling critique of Hanson, “one of the effects of racism is its tendency to justify stupidity.”
The point, then, is that any supposed difference between Hanson and Derbyshire is a smokescreen. Both improperly manipulate crime statistics to make incorrect generalizations about the criminality of entire groups of people based largely on the color of their skin. The fact that Derbyshire is blunter about it makes no substantive difference.
When National Review editor Rich Lowry dismissed Derbyshire, he wrote that Derbyshire was advancing views with which “we’d never associate ourselves.” But Wednesday morning, they did just that.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07/23/2343801/national-review-tells-young-whites-to-avoid-blacks-again/

“one of the effects of racism is its tendency to justify stupidity.”
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
Fact:
Black homicide defendants in Florida have had a higher success rate invoking Stand Your Ground than white ones have.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Yer knott a much of a lawyer, if you are even a lawyer.
Go back and read I wrote above, I'm done explaining this to you.

But I can't help myself:
If I'm not much of a lawyer (and I can assure you, for better or worse, I very much am a lawyer), what kind of lawyers were the prosecutors in your opinion, who never made any mention of TM committing a battery against Zimm before shooting him?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
No wonder tgt loves Hanson.

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
What was that--a battery of some sort I guess? Is that against the law?

Of course a battery is against the law, blahblah.

Someone committing a battery on you in the dark, rainy night, would also cause one to be fearful of one's safety.

If you don't think the prosecution used the "get off, get off" statement, then they were clearly negligent.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Of course a battery is against the law, blahblah.

Yes, yes it is! But why did the prosecution never make any mention whatsoever about this alleged battery? Why did the jury instructions make no mention of the alleged battery?
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
Many of you would have failed a college debate class.

EDIT Unless insults and personal attacks judged to be WINNING criteria
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
The jury instructions don't cover every piece of evidence, Blahblah.

The jurors get to consider the "get off, get off" statement right?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
OMG Ron said "poo poo".
For once his words and meaning match up.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
I'll have to hold off from further commentary until we get more insight as who's failing the debate class (but yes, I agree the "get off" evidence was definitely significant, just not for the reason that you seem to think it was).
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Hi fatty!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
WEEEEZLEDIKK!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tarftnuc. Gee isn't this fun in a juvenile delinquent way.

While those on the whitewing side were going deeper and deeper into the assassination of Trayvon Martin's character, Jennie was posting up actual evidence that cast serious doubts on Zimmerman's credibility and veracity. Her excellent posts raised serious questions that the whitewingers bulldozed over in their rush to justify their own hate.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
Fatty Wins...this thread is over lol
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
Fatty you're still WRONG about everything.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
"Haaahahahaha, poor Fattard will never get over being kicked off the site by me"

Wow dude, you give yourself far too much credit. But I guess when ST is your life, that would make sense. I'm sure Fattrad is a total mess since he left here, lol
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
Hey as#@&%e. My name is Claudio Ricardez and I have pictures posted. Look for me whenever you want. Love talking to people face to face who just talk sh#t.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
Maybe not ok for you Ron, watch out. I know your life will be a complete mess without the insults from ST everyday, right?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
Where as the climbing community should not tolerate unwarranted retrobolting or nailing of a clean climb this forum should not tolerate what those who have deactivated got banned for.
They did not get banned for intelligently presenting an alternate perspective that the resident Liberals disapproved of but for being vile and pernicious. So get over your whine-fest. They earned their removal.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
You have so much power Hedge, you just destroy people, I have no idea how they recover.

Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:07pm PT

Online bullys get banned ????
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
schmoehedge thinks about masturbating with children Dirtclaud.. Deserves a quick "euthanasia" imho..


And I am impolite?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
After some unknown change at ST, a lot of decent, honest and literate people were deactivated in their existing, long lasting persistant personas.

Are you kidding?
Which one of the butt hurt banned were you O anonymous Coward?


Fatty isn't lurking, he's visiting a place he lived at for 7 years. For 7 years his opinions were thought and conversation provoking and he was respected.

No he was liked for his person but not respected for his thought provoking conversation.

Hi JefFatrad. No hard feelings you were a damn sight better than MM.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
This is pure entertainment.

Screw the climbing threads, this is why I come here ...not.

True colors exposed.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
Yes I am. But at least I am not an anonymous coward.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
**“One of the effects of racism is its tendency to justify stupidity.”
Ta-Nehisi Coates.**
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
Neo-Cons have always relied on the short term memory loss of others.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
It's like zombie day around here. Many previously deactivated profiles have become undead.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
I'm glad wolves are becoming more abundant in the lower 48, especially in Idaho.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Hey, look, a racist; http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/07/busted-left-wing-plant-at-houston-pro-zimmerman-rally-is-far-left-activist/

Nah, just a leftist poseur....stirring sh#t up.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
Renee trolled the righties. Love it.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Yeah because we all know black people are so gosh darned inciteable. Why just look at all the riots Obama caused!
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Ron you're pretty funny.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:34pm PT

You say that fatty was "stalking her" WTF?Who the hell could actually want TR? You seen a picture of her? I'd run like from Typhoid Mary. But I have read her thoughts, too.

That's way out of line.

dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Yep^^^^^^
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
SOP & MO of the "wrong wingers".

Ron you actually have a POS thread about to hit 3000 posts. That's pretty good. You should retire now your halcyon daze are over.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
The Houston protesters couldn't tell Renee was being sarcastic?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
I think they should designate the entire state of Idaho as a wolf sanctuary.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
The Houston protesters couldn't tell Renee was being sarcastic?

I don't know, are the New Black Panthers who put a "bounty" out on Zimm being "sarcastic"?
Is Obama being sarcastic when he says that his son would look like Trayvon or he could be Trayvon or whatever his odd obsession seems to be?
Hard to distinguish sarcasm for general stupidity these days.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Some of my best friends are white.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
Lets see, Renee is standing next to a black guy in a hoodie, and telling Breitbart she's being sarcastic, which still requires extensive sleuthing to figure it out.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
$3.99 right down the toilet.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
This thread is like syphilis.
The gift that keeps on giving even though you really wish it wouldn't.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
Funny how the only thread in Supertopo history to turn into a white supremacist honey pot was this one and yet the guys who were AGREEING WITH AND DEFENDING HIS POSTS still try to pretend this has nothing to do with race.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Reposting since Chaz was too scared to answer the first time:


Chaz said
Accurate crime statistics have a well known racist bias. How else would you explain the huge differences in crime among the races?


So....you're saying that accurate statistics are racially biased? Isn't that saying that accurate statistics aren't accurate?


I think that what you're TRYING to say is that there is a statistical difference in crime rates committed by people of different races. Those statistics don't "explain" anything, much less "the huge difference in crime among the races." They may SHOW a difference in crime, but they don't "explain" it. Statistics don't explain themselves, they are just an expression of data.

Now the way that data is collected can, and usually is, biased in some way.

Thousands of people go to jail every year for petty thefts. Many of those people are people of color. They also tend to be poor and poor people are more likely to be people of color than not poor people.

Almost nobody goes to jail for stealing millions of dollars from corporations or the government.

People with little means committing little crimes go to jail. People with huge means committing huge crimes don't go to jail. Is that because the crimes weren't committed? Or is it because the system is much, much more likely to arrest, try and convict someone who is poor and not white as it is someone who is wealthy and white?

I would love to know the actual number of white people who possess drugs and are arrested for it compared to the number of non-white people who possess and are arrested. It's not a terribly knowable number, but it would be quite illuminating.

So, Chaz. I've answered your question in earnest. I even turned it from an English teacher's nightmare into an answerable question for you. So now please do me the courtesy of answering my question:

What was your purpose for stating that statistics show people of different races commit a different number of crimes? Because it sure SEEMS like your intent is to say "non-white people commit more crime than white people and thus are worse," but since you haven't directly referenced StormFront I will give you the opportunity to defend yourself instead of making the obvious conclusion.
WBraun

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
The supertopo propaganda control freak Hedge as Goebbels the real racist as he loves to keep this bullsh!t going forever.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
Guys I'm not racist but the white supremacist is right, ok?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
What? How DARE you call me racist!?!?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
I am appalled, sir. Shocked and appalled.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
HiDesertDJ,

In answer to your question - since you apparently missed it up-thread - I'll copy-and-paste it again here. The third time's a charm, right?



"I think using numbers to account for individuals, engaged in actions as individuals, for reasons as unique as a fingerprint, and then lumping them all into one group is foolish. And this is the perfect example."

"I'm saying this is a perfect example of how one can gather numbers together in the right grouping to advance any point one wishes, no matter how unreasonable."



HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
It's Ron "Oh THAT'S discrimination? I do it all the time!" Anderson!


Chaz- You answered a question 3 times that was only asked twice? That's a neat trick. Still, I am glad that you answered how you did. I would be sad if you had dropped below Grape Drank jokes and assuming that gold teeth were meth-mouth to Manzanita Zone.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Chaz, the books can be cooked by any recipe.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
Holy crap...go out bouldering and birding for a few hours and look what I missed.


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Apparently that story wasn't good enough in news article and video form and had to be reinterpreted as a cartoon.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
This is awesome. It exposes the resident wrongwingers falacies.

Mika Brzezinski Promotes Smear That President Obama Supported Stand Your Ground In Illinois
by Tommy Christopher | 1:20 pm, July 23rd, 2013 VIDEO» 52 comments

The conservative smear that President Obama, as State Senator Barack Obama (D-Illinois), supported a Stand Your Ground law has made the species jump into the mainstream media with an assist from MSNBC’s Mika Brzezinski, the ostensible counterweight to conservative Morning Joe host Joe Scarborough. On Tuesday morning, Brzezinski credulously read a Wall Street Journal piece that tried to paint the President’s Friday remarks about Stand Your Ground as a reversal, and as usual, there was no one around to call bullsh*t.

Noting that this is “pretty important, given the grand scheme of the conversation,” Brzezinski dutifully read from the WSJ piece, which uses weasel words and sleight of hand to conclude that then-State Senator Obama “participated” in an “examination” of Illinois’ self-defense law. and “emerged as a Stand Your Ground proponent.”

Brzezinski also parroted another sick conservative talking point, that “minorities, in some ways, have been on the benefiting side of Stand Your Ground” in Florida, but that’s a whole different can of worms. Host Joe Scarborough followed Brzezinski’s recitation by wishing that the President would explain “why he supported the Stand Your Ground laws in 2004.”



That Wall Street Journal piece is based on a blog post from the conservative Illinois Review, which has swept through conservative media like Activia with Bran Clusters. That original post was actually an almost-fair reading of the situation, which then got oversold, and eventually distorted into a smear:

This past week President Obama publicly urged the reexamination of state self-defense laws (see remarks below). However, nine years ago then-State Sen. Barack Obama actually co-sponsored a bill that strengthened Illinois’ 1961 “stand your ground” law.
The Obama-sponsored bill (SB 2386) enlarged the state’s 1961 law by shielding the person who was attacked from being sued in civil court by perpetrators or their estates when a “stand your ground” defense is used in protecting his or her person, dwelling or other property.
I say “almost fair” because even Illinois Review’s take relies on a pair of false premises, the first of which is that the bill that Obama supported specifically dealt with “Stand Your Ground” claims. It did not. The bill revised the law for all self-defense claims. Illinois Review’s assertion is like saying that because the President likes baseball, he’s a Cubs fan.

But worse than that, Illinois doesn’t have a “Stand Your Ground” law like Florida’s, at least not according to this map:



you’re probably wondering what liberal progressive bleeding-heart gun-grabbing website published that map; was it ThinkProgress? Maybe Daily Kos? How about the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action (that’s the NRA)?

Illinois’ self-defense law does have one thing in common with Florida, which is the absence of a duty to retreat, but there are significant differences as well. From The Chicago Daily Law Bulletin‘s Shaun Zinck:

(Associate director for administration at the State’s Attorneys Appellate Prosecutor’s Office Matthew P.) Jones said in Illinois, the force used to defend must be proportional to the danger they face.
“You can’t bring a gun to a fist fight,” he said. “You can’t use deadly force when there is no deadly force being used against you.”
Jerry E. Norton, a professor at Loyola University Chicago School of Law, said Florida law presumes the shooter feared for their life.
“It makes one who claims justified use of force immune from not only conviction, but also arrest and charging,” Norton said.
Jones said Illinois has an affirmative defense, which means if a defendant claims self-defense after killing someone, they must prove that the danger they faced justified using deadly force. That burden shifts to the prosecution in Florida, he said.
Technically speaking, Illinois’ law can be described as “Stand Your Ground” by virtue of the “no duty to retreat,” but the additional burdens it imposes make it entirely consistent with President Obama’s remarks, which specifically referenced the use of deadly force against an unarmed victim. Illinois Review does make the entirely fair point that, with regard to the existing law’s absence of a duty to retreat, Obama “didn’t raise” the issue of “whether the laws encouraged altercations rather than avoiding them,” but the criteria for self-defense were not part of the bill, and were not discussed by anyone.

In any case, revising a law that includes Stand Your Ground-Lite in no way makes you a “proponent” of such laws, any more than a Republican offering an amendment to an abortion law makes them an “abortion proponent.”

I expect to hear a smear like this repeated on conservative outlets, but on a supposedly liberal network, from the supposed counterweight to the network’s prominent conservative host? No one at any network should be Leaning Forward into this garbage.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/mika-brzezinski-promotes-smear-that-president-obama-supported-stand-your-ground-in-illinois/


The Wrongwing Nutz will perpetrate any lie.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
Poor widdle angry, victimized white men.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
If she had actually shot him, she'd be up on either murder or attempted murder charges.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
Jim Brennan posted
Marissa was free and clear of the abusive dick but felt a compulsion to return with a gun and shoot off a round to "warn" the bastard.


Zimmerman was free and clear but didn't want the "punks" to "always get away" and yet the jury decided that the actual confrontation happened when the two men came into close physical proximity. By that standard Marissa's confrontation didn't start until she was back in the house with the gun and feeling threatened by her self-admittedly abusive husband.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
Uhm Jim, it was HER house.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
Warning shots are never called for, and will always get you in trouble.

It's a felony every time, no matter what.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
Are you advocating shoot first, shoot to kill and ask questions... Ah never mind just whip out your smart phone and video the corpse.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Marisa Anderson is the victim of a "gun control' law that mandates a twenty year sentence with no discretion by the judge.

Why aren't you all applauding that?


The stand your ground part was made mote by the fact that she left the room, went out to her car, got a gun, came back, and then shot.

There's also the part that the jury heard and no one wants to mention that AFTER this all happened, weeks or months later she assaulted her ex and was arrested, convicted and sentenced to time served on that totally separate case.

We have a case of a couple who both like to fight and a 'gun control" law run amok.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
and returned to where the treat was

Do you think she was just after the marzipan?


Or is it even remotely possible that she as a mother of three and being not as informed on Florida Law as our resident legal experts she was really trying to get a dangerous repeat offender out of her and her kids house?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Dr F writes:

"so you are saying that she should have shot her husband
That was her only way out"


She was already "out". Free and clear. Then she armed herself, and returned to assault her old man.

If she had shot the guy, she'd be in more trouble.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
We've been thru that warning shot thing with you before, Chaz. Even showed you an example of a guy who fired a warning shot and was not charged.

Some people would rather not take a life, even if they can get away with it, odd as it sounds.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
No one is saying she should have left everything behind and run leaving it up to a police department that had let her down repeatedly. The other is saying she should have shot to kill first.


So Chazman if you were to get driven out of your house by a violent repeat offender would you move into the local homeless shelter?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
How would that happen? Me, being driven out of my house?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Hypothetically. You know walk in another's moccasins.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 23, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
mute
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 23, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
They are already a mote in the moat and need to be mute on their moot point.
There I fixed it for you.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 23, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Had to load the ole' shotgun today. Police (3 of them) wanted to search my property for a robbery suspect. 3 cops for that?

Asked for descrip and they called him young male Latino, they must have profiled.

Anyway, didn't have to chamber a round today. All's clear.

And one cop actually commented on my climbing wall. "Nice climbing wall you got there".
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 23, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
This thread is like syphilis.
The gift that keeps on giving even though you really wish it wouldn't.

True dat^^^
Personally I find this thread is like a bad accident on the side of the highway that makes you wonder how bad the victims are injured.

Oh wait ....was that Zimmerman pulling the WHITE victims out of the car. No doubt he would have let them burn if they were black. Heck he was prolly the guy that ran them off the road.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 24, 2013 - 01:08am PT
But if she had killed her old man, she would have been exposed to a FIRST DEGREE murder rap, which carries a potential death penalty in Florida.

The time it took her to get the gun and return to the scene of the crime would have constituted "premeditation", which would have fulfilled the component of capital murder in Florida.

She's lucky she missed. She could be on death row.
WBraun

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 01:12am PT
This thread is like syphilis.
The gift that keeps on giving even though you really wish it wouldn't.

Best post in the whole thread.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 24, 2013 - 01:35am PT
California law would have seen her convicted of first degree murder, had she killed her old man under like circumstances.

Florida law would still have had her serve a longer sentence had her bullets actually have hit her old man, no matter the state-specific legal nomenclature.

She's lucky she missed her target.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 07:54am PT
Chaz stated
Warning shots are never called for, and will always get you in trouble.

It's a felony every time, no matter what.


I don't know why we have to talk in circles on this. We all said the exact same sh#t like 20 pages ago. You guys keep arguing the letter of the law, which may be exactly correct, but you only argue the letter of the law because it allows you to avoid having to explain exactly how INSANELY F*#KING UNJUST the outcomes in these two cases are. There is literally no logical way you can defend Zimmerman walking away as being a just outcome and not ALSO BE OUTRAGED that that woman was sentenced for 20 years. But maybe assuming you guys are using logic is where I'm going wrong.

Chaz continued
Florida law would still have had her serve a longer sentence had her bullets actually have hit her old man, no matter the state-specific legal nomenclature.

Again, not supported by the outcome of the Zimmerman case. If anything, the woman should have had a stronger case for self defense considering the abusiveness of the intruder in her own home. I don't know why all the zealous gun nut "nobody can count on the police I defend my OWN property and I'll shoot anyone who tries to take my stuff" people in this thread aren't all over this one.

Women need AR-15's to defend themselves from their abusive husbands! But only if they actually shoot them! Women who waste bullets shooting ceilings should go to jail!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:50am PT
bluering said
Asked for descrip and they called him young male Latino, they must have profiled.

bluering doesn't "get" profiling. Shocker.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:55am PT
Hey Ron, you don't have to "back down" to be upfront.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 09:17am PT
Ron said
Many Blacks in the country dislike those that bring them down,, just like my Mexican friends not liking the illegals that bring their race down. And just like the white trash brings my neighborhoods down.

This is an amazing couple of sentences.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 24, 2013 - 09:44am PT
hey that petty song is deep man...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/juror-b29-maddy-says-zimmerman-got-away-with-murder/2013/07/25/a636ec2a-f55a-11e2-aa2e-4088616498b4_story.html


Two weeks after George Zimmerman was acquitted in the death of Florida teen Trayvon Martin, the only person on the jury who is a member of an ethnic minority said in an ABC News interview that Zimmerman “got away with murder.’

Juror B29, identified only by her first name Maddy, sat down with ABC’s Robin Roberts, to discuss the trial for “Good Morning America.” As the first juror to show her face on camera, Maddy expressed both conviction and regret.

‘Justice for Trayvon’ rallies across the U.S.: Protesters chant and march, calling for a federal investigation and changes to “stand your ground” statutes after the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the 2012 shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Florida.

“You can’t put the man in jail even though in our hearts we felt he was guilty,” Maddy said of Zimmerman.

A nursing assistant and mother of eight children, Maddy, 36, who is Puerto Rican, said she believed she owed Trayvon Martin’s parents an apology because she felt “like I let them down.”

She also said that the case shouldn’t have gone to trial and that it was “a publicity stunt.” Despite this, she said the decision weighed heavily on her.

“It’s hard for me to sleep; it’s hard for me to eat because I feel I was forcefully included in Trayvon Martin’s death. And as I carry him on my back, I’m hurting as much [as] Trayvon’s Martin’s mother because there’s no way that any mother should feel that pain,” she said.


Or, as The Onion put it:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/zimmerman-found-not-guilty-technically-but-cmon,33124/

In Our Defense, These Were Some Pretty F*#ked-Up Laws And We Were Ordered To Deliberate In Accordance With Them
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 26, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
No, Slate (that bastion of right wing reporting) has a pretty good expose of the ABC hack job referenced above.
But clearly the juror was troubled by Zimm's behavior; pretty much in line with the more astute ST commentators--Zimm's behavior was likely morally troubling, but not legally actionable. (I say "likely" b/c we don't really know what happened.)

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2013/07/did_george_zimmerman_get_away_with_murder_no_juror_b29_is_being_framed.html
Did George Zimmerman Get Away With Murder?
The media are reporting that a juror says Zimmerman is guilty of murder. That’s not true.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Jul 26, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
Why was Trayvon Martin yelling "get off me"? Was Zimmerman illegally attempting to restrain him, when Trayvon elbowed George in the face and he fell down?

Why no blood coming from Zimmerman's nostrils (Sanford police cell phone photo), but rather drops descending from the tip of his nose?



HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
The Slate article seems a bit obtuse:

You have to watch her, not just read her words, to pick up her meaning. As she struggles to answer, she looks as though she’s trying to reconcile the sentiment that’s been quoted to her—that Zimmerman “got away with murder”—with her own perspective. So she repeats the quote and adds words of her own, to convey what she thinks: that there’s a justice higher than the law, which Zimmerman will have to face. She thinks he’s morally culpable, not legally guilty.

We know she thinks he's morally culpable, not legally guilty...that's why they acquitted him! She's frustrated that the law is not capable of holding him to account for his moral failings. The sound bite might not be as legitimately pithy as the media would like but the sentiment is.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 28, 2013 - 07:53am PT
"Many Blacks in the country dislike those that bring them down,, just like my Mexican friends not liking the illegals that bring their race down. And just like the white trash brings my neighborhoods down."

It's uncomfortable for lilly-white liberals to confront this fact.

All black, white, asian, and latino people I CHOOSE to hang with are pretty cool. I have profiled them, it's human nature. Not based on skin color, but the quality of their character.

I get along better with latinos than I do with most whites. Vietnamese also. And Filipinos.

Japs and Chinese are a whole different story. They look down on white people, and all other races.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jul 28, 2013 - 09:16am PT
Japs and Chinese are a whole different story. They look down on white people, and all other races.

Yes. Unlike you. You only hate the haters...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 28, 2013 - 10:06am PT
bluering posted
It's uncomfortable for lilly-white liberals to confront this fact.

All black, white, asian, and latino people I CHOOSE to hang with are pretty cool. I have profiled them, it's human nature. Not based on skin color, but the quality of their character.

I get along better with latinos than I do with most whites. Vietnamese also. And Filipinos.

Japs and Chinese are a whole different story. They look down on white people, and all other races.


So you don't judge people on the color of their skin but the content of their character....




....unless they are "Japs" or Chinese (or "lily whites").


The more you guys try to steer around your prejudices with your eyes closed the harder you keep running into them.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 28, 2013 - 10:39am PT
I knew that would get you guys riled up...

Jap that I work with calls himself that all the time. Bastards won't let him back to Japan because of his family heritage. (WWII general).
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 28, 2013 - 10:41am PT
Do you call black people niggers?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 28, 2013 - 10:41am PT
what color are the bastards?

here's one from your buddy and savior JC. from the lily-white Edition.

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 28, 2013 - 11:44am PT

Jap that I work with calls himself that all the time. Bastards won't let him back to Japan because of his family heritage. (WWII general).


Hi Steve,


I have to tell you, most Yonsei in the U.S. dislike being refered to as "Japs."

Eastern Idaho has a significant population, many of them potato farmers, who came here during the Japenese diaspora between 1880 and 1920. Most are very proud of their ethnic/racial heritage but I've met very few who I would call "arrogant" or believe they are better than everyone else.

I try to refrain from my own tendency of stereotyping a mass group of people by one or two "bad apple" members within it.

Most Japanese Americans make very loyal and even tempered friends...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 30, 2013 - 09:54am PT
No one bitching about white on white crime and white culture of violence but this guy? Crazy assed Californians.

http://gawker.com/video-of-violent-rioting-surfers-shows-white-culture-o-954939719

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 10:04am PT
bluering said
I knew that would get you guys riled up...

Jap that I work with calls himself that all the time. Bastards won't let him back to Japan because of his family heritage. (WWII general).

Many black folks refer to each other endearingly as "niggas." You should feel free to do the same.

The "I know a guy who is cool if I call him that so it's ok to do it all the time" excuse has to be at the top of "shit ignorant white people think about race" list right after "I can't be racist because I know this one black guy" and right before "we have a black president so racism is over."
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 30, 2013 - 10:25am PT
http://gawker.com/video-of-violent-rioting-surfers-shows-white-culture-o-954939719

re^^^^^^^video

pretty weak stuff


not a single punch thrown
4 porta potties pushed over
no other damage

maybe that's why only one (self appointed anthropologist crackpot) dude is bitching...

shouldn't you be bitching about White-on-Sanitation vandalism?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 30, 2013 - 10:48am PT
In this age of initials, acronyms, and hybrided names I really don't see "Japs" as pejorative compared to words like nigger, kike, spic, etc.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 30, 2013 - 10:51am PT
except it's not an Acronym, initials or coined in this age. Just exactly like the others, It is a pejorative term coined by our grandfathers.
Cragar

Trad climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 30, 2013 - 11:02am PT
"Jap" is a good case in point...

My parents' generation fought WWII. They were taught, and learned, to disrespect and dislike, to hate even, the 'enemy.' A concerted public effort to foster bad will toward those enemies was conducted.

A key piece of this process is the dehumanizing of the enemy. They're not Japanese, they're 'Japs.' And they're not really human, well, not like us anyway. We're the good guys, they are not. The THINGS THEY DO to their conquered foes... OMG! Barbarians!!! WHO WOULD DO THAT????

So people who never met a Japanese person in their life, got an attitude about them. And began spreading that attitude. Anti-Japanese prejudice here in California has a very, very long history for example. This racism traces back for more than 100 years. Proud to be leveraging that body of work, bluering? Maybe a side trip to Manzanar is in order for you, should you ever get out that way.

I grew up hearing the term 'Jap' used in common language. So far as I knew there wasn't a Japanese person within a hundred miles of me, at any given time. Heard it on TV, heard it from my brother and friends. Heard it all the time. Didn't think anything of it.

Didn't occur to me until it was pointed out as an adult - 'jap' is a racial epithet; an insult, a derogatory term. Having also grown up in a place where I heard the daily use of the word 'nigger' I instantly understood.

Racism was foisted upon me, and done so in a manner that as a child I had no defense for. But as an adult I learned my way out of that sh#t.

Call me politically correct that I won't use the term 'digger' pine, and instead prefer to call them gray pines. You might not like my revisionist slant on language. My PC heart bleeds for you too!

If you use racial nicknames and insults then you have ZERO place to complain when they are used against you, or held againt you, or that people make judgements about your character based, in some cases solely upon, your use of those words. If that's how you want to be perceived in the world, David Duke, then relax... you've succeeded.

The rest of us have evolved. See you on the next turn of the wheel.

DMT

Hey Ding, I thought they are called Foothill Pines? That term might be offensive to the gray_meth_folks out I-Bar road...! Ha!
Anyway, you hit the nail on the head again. Great post!!!

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
Over two-thirds of the Nikkei interned during World War II were American citizens...sadly, because of emotions after Pearl Harbor few Americans protested the order.

The system that is supposed to protect the rights of American citizens was severely trampled upon...legal scholars describe this as one of the worst violations of constitutional rights in American history. By the time the last internees were released in 1946, Japanese Americans had lost homes and businesses estimated to be worth, in 1999 values, 4 to 5 billion dollars.

Despite the internment, most Japanese-Americans remained intensely loyal to the United States. In 1943, the U.S. Army formed a segregated all-Japanese-American combat unit...the legendary 100th/442nd Regiment which fought in Italy and France and became the most decorated unit of its size in American military history.

The greatest numbers of volunteers in the 442nd came from Idaho and the Minidoka Interment Center...dozens of the families, because they were interned, could not attend the funerals of their sons and brothers killed in action. Very sad...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Yes, a terrible chapter in US history.

One of the camps, Topaz, was here in Utah in the middle of nowhere.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Whose turn is it to explain to Ron why he is wrong?

I don't have the patience for it anymore.

Cragar

Trad climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
*^&$ it dirtbag, why bother.

what does sadly required mean?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
I think it is high time CMac started weeding out these anonymous fukheads posting from multiple accounts.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
How many accounts have you had, Mr Christ?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Yeah Cragar, I know.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Due process issues aside (and there were major violations of due process--were the kids spies too?), educate yourself why the camps were put in place. The real reasons (hint--think $$$$$$$$).

Not my job to idiot-proof the interweb.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 30, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
It's as if the people who were fighting the war didn't know how the war was going to end while they were in the middle of fighting it.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Look, a brown person. BOO!!!


PUSSIES.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 30, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
So what do you suggest, Ron? After you've rounded up all the muslims in the US, do you think you should put them in internment camps? Or just kill them all?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 30, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
There are roughly three million Muslims in the United States, and almost all of them are citizens.

They work and pay taxes and on Sunday go to their church, just like Christians.

They don't commit acts of terror.

The Muslims who subscribe to radical Islam and plot to kill Americans do not come from the three million who are citizens, but from either being born in the Middle East or had visited and had been talked into Anti Americanism before then coming over here.

If you want to really really piss off the three million that are here right now and are as law abiding and every bit American as you and I, then let them read about your plans to round them up and send them,,,,,,,somewhere,,,,,because their families and homes are here.

Should every Muslim "looking" male be pulled out of line at our airports and strip searched?

as in profiled?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 30, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
how ironic is it that you can't spell FACT?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 30, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
There are roughly three million Muslims in the United States, and almost all of them are citizens.

They work and pay taxes and on Sunday go to their church, just like Christians.

They don't commit acts of terror.
Norton, got to fact check you this one. Muslims don't go to their "church" on Sundays, at least that's not any special day for them.
You just gotta remember in the ME you have your Friday people, Saturday people, and Sunday people. Interestingly, they're all celebrating the same "Sabbath" in principle, I'm sure there's an interesting story about how the days all got switched, but I don't know it.
I'd stick with Saturday as being the most authentic.
WBraun

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Fakt: Muslims are causing MOST of the worlds terrorism attacks right now.

Nope

It's Americans and The Zionist Israel.

Americans are too stupid to even begin to understand who's really doing what .....
Cragar

Trad climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 30, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
It's Americans and The Zionist Israel.

Exactly what the (multi-national)military industrial complex wants and pulls it off quite swimmingly I might add.

Endless $$$ via trumped up fear and some collateral damage, or whatever it is called now...YeeHaw!

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 30, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
I'm not sure how we got here on this thread, but, days of worship aside, Norton pinpoints the problem. The American Muslim community is so overwhelmingly loyal that holding an individual American citizen of Muslim faith in suspicion makes as little sense as holding any other American citizen in suspicion.

To me, the Obama administration deserves praise for how it has handled the situation, while being politically under attack by both the left and the right. It has avoided anything so shameful as the Japanese internment camps, but it certainly seems to be keeping eyes and ears focused where the most likely threats will take place.

Sure it hasn't been perfect. Who or what has? And yes, it bothers me that the government was not forthcoming on the nature of the attack in Benghazi, but that's a rather small quibble in the overall picture. Overall, at least to me, this administration has done a good job of watching the real enemies of the United States without abusing loyal citizens.

John
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 30, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
John E, you have to kidding, take a look at the PC fiasco surrounding the Ft. Hood shooter--you really couldn't make that stuff up. If you think Obama's done a good job here, I pray we never get a president who does a bad job.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
Ron and Blahblah,

Boy, now everyone thinks I'm losing it (See the Republicans thread recently)

Maybe I am, but I didn't say that the Obama administration was perfect. Ft. Hood represents a clear mistake. So does Boston. But so do 9/11, the Cole, Nairobi, etc. My support of the Obama administration on this issue reflects the administration's willingness to resist the anti-antiterror factions of both Democrats and Republicans.

If you want to see someone doing a bad job, just elect someone like Jim McDermott or Rand Paul, and see what happens.

john
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
This has to be one of the most schizophrenic threads on ST. I have a headache.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 30, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
How many accounts have you had, Mr Christ?

You know how many I have had because I have never made any attempt to be anonymous. Dumb ass.


I always appreciate your posts JE. Great to see intelligent people acknowledging good work.




Oh, and...

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
Ron and Blahblah,

Boy, now everyone thinks I'm losing it (See the Republicans thread recently)

Maybe I am, but I didn't say that the Obama administration was perfect. Ft. Hood represents a clear mistake. So does Boston. But so do 9/11, the Cole, Nairobi, etc. My support of the Obama administration on this issue reflects the administration's willingness to resist the anti-antiterror factions of both Democrats and Republicans.

If you want to see someone doing a bad job, just elect someone like Jim McDermott or Rand Paul, and see what happens.

john

Man, I used to think you saw sh#t logically, John! You are totally wrong here.

Can you see that the current admin (and the last one) pussy-ffoted around the real problem? The "war on terror". What is the war against? Is it justified (I think so)?

The Rand Paul's of the world say, "F*#k Them!", let's come home and batten down the hatches. The neo-con's and Obamas say, "let's create Democracy".

I stand with Rand on this. Not his Dad.

We have the ability to give the ME a middle-finger regarding oil, and we can also strike precisely where there are threats. Bring the boyz home!

Lastly, if we are going to fight a f*#king land war, can we do it old-school? Call the enemy names, demean them, and allow our troops the ability to KILL THEM. It's not a police action. It's war, and these boys of ours want to come home in one piece.

If we commit to war, then let our boys "cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war".

We owe them that.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
HELLYEAH, when WE commit let's get SOMEONE ELSE to fight the war on our behalf. Cuz, like, we're patriots!

DMT


Your lame discussion is growing tired. So tired that you fail to see my f*#king point!!!

Yeah, I never served, but did your genius pick up on the part where I said that GUYS WHO DID VOLUNTEER< SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE ALL DISCRESSION TO KILL THE ENENMY??? Did you miss that?

Or are you just so self-involved in some kind of military guilt that I can't say our guys should be able to shoot bad people?

I have no right to say that? Is that you idiotic point?

You have a 'non-servednik' obsession that is weird.

Re-read my former post. ^^^^^ above. weirdo.....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 6, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
Your lame discussion is growing tired. So tired that you fail to see my f*#king point!!!

He sees right through your f*#king point.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 6, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
"We have the ability to give the ME a middle-finger regarding oil, and we can also strike precisely where there are threats. Bring the boyz home!"

This has been the Obama administrations view as well Bluering. Out of Iraq, getting out of Afghanistan. Staying mostly out of Syria and Libya as well. The cost of even a minor skirmish is incredibly high (as we will soon see again in Iran).
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
"Re-read my former post. ^^^^^ above. weirdo....."


You are, at most, 7 years old.


Did you even read my anti-interventionist screed?

This has been the Obama administrations view as well Bluering. Out of Iraq, getting out of Afghanistan. Staying mostly out of Syria and Libya as well. The cost of even a minor skirmish is incredibly high (as we will soon see again in Iran).


Then why are we mobilizing mechanized divisions towards Syria via Jordan?

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 7, 2013 - 11:50pm PT

Then why are we mobilizing mechanized divisions towards Syria via Jordan?

Beuller???? Anybody? Doesn't fit your narrative?

Meanwhile, Chechens have taken over a Syrian airbase and beheaded the soldiers there. Are these the guys we're planning on arming?

http://patdollard.com/2013/08/chechencaucusus-islamists-seize-syria-airbase-execute-soldiers/

This is a Debka link I posted.

Oh, and Al Qaeda is 'on the run';

http://patdollard.com/2013/08/massive-attack-by-al-qaeda-thwarted-in-yemen/
dirtbag

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 06:45am PT
"Pat dollar$" lol.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 08:15am PT
bluering raged
Yeah, I never served, but did your genius pick up on the part where I said that GUYS WHO DID VOLUNTEER< SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE ALL DISCRESSION TO KILL THE ENENMY??? Did you miss that?

Or are you just so self-involved in some kind of military guilt that I can't say our guys should be able to shoot bad people?


Ah, yes. The "well, if we were shooting at them then they were bad" theory to engagement. I think that worked out pretty well in Vietnam, no? Even with strict ROE our guys still manage to kill plenty of people who aren't "bad." Even with lots of training our police manage to do the same thing. Come out of your dream world. Also, those red lines under the words that appear when you bang on the keyboard with your fists are trying to tell you something.


*edit* Sweet! Patdollard.com links! I only like my news copy/pasted from actual news organizations and placed under the byline "The War Starts Here" so this site fits all my needs.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Aug 8, 2013 - 09:49am PT
Wow, YourHighnessDJ is in full arrogance mode this morning.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:53am PT
No I didn't miss it. I got it loud and clear. You want 'our boys' to go kill the boogermen of whom YOU are afraid. You want them to kill without mercy, on your behalf. You want them to do a job you wouldn't do yourself. I totally get it. You're like most pro-war Americans... all talk, no do. The only do you got is to get others to DO your fighting for you.

Yes, good point. And none of us should advocate for the guvment spending money on education unless we're a teacher, or spending on health care unless we're a doctor or nurse, etc.
The only things we should support the guvment doing are things that are exactly the same as our current or former jobs--that makes a lot of sense to me and I'm sure the rest of the ST geniuses!
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 8, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Yes, you got it, you should not advocate sending teachers into a classroom unless you yourself have been a teacher.
That simple enough for you? Sound incredibly stupid?
If the answer to both of the foregoing questions is "yes," congratulations, you're capable of elementary reasoning.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 8, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
*edit* Sweet! Patdollard.com links! I only like my news copy/pasted from actual news organizations and placed under the byline "The War Starts Here" so this site fits all my needs.


The Dollard posts are sourced from common MSM sources, idiot. It says the source at the beginning of the post.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 8, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
Too bad this little 13 yr-old wasn't packing. 3-on-1 beatdown because the whitey didn't like their drug-dealing;

http://www.examiner.com/article/school-bus-fight-three-black-teens-attack-white-bus-driver-doesn-t-intervene

Where're the civil rights as#@&%es?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Aug 9, 2013 - 09:23am PT
bluering scoffed
The Dollard posts are sourced from common MSM sources, idiot. It says the source at the beginning of the post.

It's true! They find the most hysterical, sensationalist broadcasts/articles they can find that reinforce the worldview of their audience and then re-headline them in a manner that redoubles the hysteria! I went and watched the actual broadcast about the Fort Hood shooter being given "special treatment by Obama" and it boils down to the shocking, SHOCKING revelation that:

The military flies him to court in a helicopter due to security concerns.

Which clearly was Obama's decision because he's a megalomaniacal Muslim capable of micromanaging the military but incapable of managing the military.

Some other choice PatDollardDotCom articles "sourced" from maintstream media:

http://patdollard.com/2013/08/watch-florida-school-bus-driver-stands-by-while-kids-beat-sixth-grader-may-face-charges/

Black School Bus Driver Stands By While Pack of Black Kids Beat Younger White Kid, Break His Arm, Rob Him

Turns out when you read the article or watch the video that the "Black School Bus Driver" called for help and tried to get the kids to stop but that's not important what's important is that a Black School Bus Driver Stood By While A PACK OF BLACK KIDS Beat And Robbed A White Kid. A whole PACK of them. And the black school bus driver just STOOD there. Being black. I don't understand why you people keep bringing up race as still being an issue all I see is some innocent dog whistling here ok?


http://patdollard.com/2013/08/ww2-hero-refuses-medical-care-so-cops-kill-him-in-his-nursing-home/

WW2 Hero Refuses Medical Care, So Cops Kill Him in His Nursing Home

Nursing home resident swings a cane and a large kitchen knife at staff, paramedics and police so they shoot him with a beanbag gun which then causes internal bleeding and he later dies but I think that headline accurately paraphrases that, don't you? Plus it was "excerpted" (decontextualized and rewritten) from the Chicago Tribune so you know it's accurate! Also they stretch the article out to like 5 times the original length by including excerpts from an interview with the family lawyer, nursing home executive and lots of editorializing which they fail to mention was not part of the original article. A pretty clever way to make it seem like all your "facts" are sourced by actual journalists!

PatDollard knows very well that bluering would never actual click the link to the original articles so I'm pretty sure they know who the idiot here is.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Aug 9, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
He and his wife argued. He pulled a gun on her. She threatened to leave him. He put the gun away and followed her. She unloaded a volley of punches on him. He fetched the gun again. She pulled a knife. He wrestled it out of her hands. She punched him again.

Well, she DID pull a knife on him.

Seriously, though this is unbelievably terrible. Their 10 y/o daughter was in the house too.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 9, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
Seriously though, I don't see why he couldn't use the "stand your ground" defense.

Do you think the outcome of the case would have been different based on the law of self defense in FL before SYG?
If so, why?
If you're a little confused (and I don't know if you are or you aren't), no biggie, it was clear in this thread that many posters had no idea of what changes to the law of self defense SYG made, what relevance SYG may have had to the Zimm case (nothing really, although some guy went ape sh#t based on the fact that an aspect of SYG was a part of the jury instructions), etc.
Lots of people seem to be mad that people have a right to defend themselves (and that right includes hurting or killing an attacker, depending on the circumstances), but that's true in every US jurisdiction. The details vary.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 9, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
Yeah, elimination of the "duty to retreat" was an important aspect of SYG, but there are other important parts too (such as the "immunity" aspect of it, and a fee shifting provision in civil cases). I don't want to act like an expert on it; just looked at the law when following the Zimm case.
As I understand it, no one claimed that Zimm had a "duty to retreat," because once Trayvon was beating the crap out of Zimm, Zimm really couldn't retreat. (If you don't believe Trayvon was beating the crap out of Zimm and Zimm just assassinated Trayvon, that's fine, but under those circumstances, SYG isn't a defense. That was pretty much the prosecution theory.)

It isn't clear to me if the "duty to retreat" is relevant under the Facebook killer facts; it seems to me that you cannot safely retreat from someone attacking you with a knife, and so there may not be any difference in the Facebook killer case under SYG or under the pre-existing law.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 22, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Wrap up in case anyone missed it. Jury heard all of the evidence and decided. Zimmerman is a free man and judged "not guilty".

"I'm letting the judge jury and prosecutors make the call. They will be looking at better evidence than any of us will get third hand or from typically sloppy biased reporting."

"If the head split, you must acquit"
. The head was split.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 27, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
George Zimmerman to ask for $200,000 from Florida for court costs
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/26/justice/george-zimmerman-court-costs/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Don't know if this request probably will or won't be granted; you never really hear about criminal defendants recouping costs, but perhaps this is an aspect of Stand Your Ground.
If so, this seems like a good idea--about time the government gets held at least a little bit accountable when is decides to f*#k with peoples' lives to score political points.
After all, Florida's case was so weak that the the libs are now claiming that it threw the case (regardless of whether that's true, it shows the entire thing was a farce and a fraud).
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 27, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
Maybe Zimmerman will learn not to f*#k with peoples lives by carrying a gun while on neighborhood watch.

The homeowners association had to settle with the Martin family over this issue.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 27, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
Maybe Zimmerman has learned why it's not advisable to carry a gun while on neighborhood watch.

The homeowners association had to settle with the Martin family over this issue.

Maybe, although it's interesting that the Martin family apparently hasn't sued Zimmerman and that the HOA didn't try a subrogation claim against him.
Could be a reflection that insurance companies (I assume the HOA had an insurance policy--I believe that virtually all of them do, and I know that purchasing insurance is required bylaws of my HOA) settle claims for economic reasons that don't perfectly track likely legal liability.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Sep 9, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
Zimmerman's wife won't press charges despite call
http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20130909/c7a4bd0e-e581-40b6-8010-f0a252bc17c9

LAKE MARY, Fla. (AP) — The sobbing wife of George Zimmerman called 911 Monday to report that her estranged husband was threatening her with a gun and had punched her father in the nose, but hours later decided not to press charges against the man acquitted of all charges for fatally shooting Trayvon Martin.

Lake Mary police officers were still investigating the encounter as a domestic dispute, but no charges had been filed Monday afternoon. Shellie Zimmerman left the house after being questioned by police. George Zimmerman remained there into early evening and his attorney denied any wrongdoing by his client. He was not arrested.

On the 911 call, Shellie Zimmerman is sobbing and repeating "Oh my God" as she talks to a police dispatcher. She yells at her father to get inside the house, saying Zimmerman may start shooting at them.

"He's threatening all of us with a firearm ... He punched my dad in the nose," Shellie Zimmerman said on the call. "I don't know what he's capable of. I'm really scared."



Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
Just peckerwoods being peckerwoods. She's lucky he didn't shoot. He must've felt threatened.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
deja vu


Lake Mary police officers were still investigating the encounter as a domestic dispute, but no charges had been filed Monday afternoon. Shellie Zimmerman left the house after being questioned by police. George Zimmerman remained there into early evening and his attorney denied any wrongdoing by his client. He was not arrested.


What are you wearing Shellie?

A hoodie?

Sounds like a situation for eKat. I'll chip in for plane tickets.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 14, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
It's true! They find the most hysterical, sensationalist broadcasts/articles they can find that reinforce the worldview of their audience and then re-headline them in a manner that redoubles the hysteria!

You criticize this source, but how does it differ than the MSM? This source is picking up the MSM's slack.

Some stories are better than others...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 15, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
I bet this lady wishes she had a gun when cops failed to respond to her 911 call.

She was raped as a result.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x106oj7_woman-allegedly-raped-by-ex-after-911-call-goes-unanswered_news
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 15, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
No cops to respond since they got laid off after the Republican congress cut off their funds.

Nice. Thanks, GOP!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Police are State and County funded, not Federal. Nice try though, Gary.

Dipshit!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
Seems entirely reasonable to me. If someone is forceably entering my house or car I'm gonna be afraid for my life. If I had a gun, I wouldn't think twice about it. If I am elsewhere and someone attacks me, I'm gonna be afraid in that situation, too. People need to act civilly to one another. Breaking into my place or attacking me when I'm out isn't civil behavior. It's hostile aggression, plain and simple. The consequences become their problem. What wrong with that?


Absolutely nothing. It's self-defense.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 7, 2013 - 10:46am PT
In more "there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's self defense" news:

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/06/standing_your_ground_black_woman_shot_in_head_seeking_help_in_a_white_neighborhood/






**Standing your ground? Black woman shot in head seeking help in white neighborhood
The family of Renisha McBride, 19, seeks answers after she was shot in the head and the shooter may avoid charges**

“You see a young black lady on your porch and you shoot?” demanded Bernita Sparks, the aunt of slain Detroit 19-year-old Renisha McBride. McBride was shot in the head and killed when, according to her family, she was seeking help, knocking on doors in a white neighborhood after her car crashed.

McBride’s family is asking prosecutors for information on the incident that left the unarmed young woman dead. Scant details have been provided. As the Detroit News reported “Dearborn Heights [Police Department has] identified the person who fired the shot and killed the woman.” However, police have claimed that the shooter believed McBride to be an intruder and shot in self-defense. Initial police reports that described the 19-year-old’s body as having been “dumped” have been amended to state that she was found on the shooter’s porch.

Self-defense gone wrong is not a sufficient excuse for a bullet in the head, McBride’s family has stressed. “He shot her in the head … for what? For knocking on his door,” said Spinks. “If he felt scared or threatened, he should have called 911.”

Police have now asked that charges be brought against the shooter. But since a “stand your ground” law applies in Michigan, the charges may not stick. As Rania Khalek has rightly pointed out on her blog, “The problem with a law like Stand Your Ground is that it excuses and encourages deadly force against ‘perceived’ threats. In the United States, where implicit and structural racism persists on a vast scale, is it wise to empower people who almost certainly have irrational and racist fears.”

And as Khalek notes in the case of McBride’s shooting, “She is after all a black woman from Detroit, which is 82 percent black, whereas Dearborn Heights, the area she was shot in, is 86 percent white … Regardless of your position on Stand Your Ground, one thing is for sure. The family of 19-year-old Renisha McBride deserves answers.”
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 7, 2013 - 10:57am PT
bluering wrote:
Police are State and County funded, not Federal. Nice try though, Gary.

Dipshit!

Hahaha!
Because the number of deputies at Josephine County's Sheriff's Department had been cut following the expiration of the Secure Rural Schools and Community Self-Determination Act - a multimillion- dollar annual federal aid payment for timber-producing counties – the remaining officers were only available 8am to 4pm Monday through Friday.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022888567

Because the number of deputies at Josephine County’s Sheriff’s Department had been cut following the expiration of the Secure Rural Schools and Community Self-Determination Act – a multimillion- dollar annual federal aid payment for timber-producing counties – the remaining officers were only available 8am to 4pm Monday through Friday.
http://shot97.com/2013/05/lady-raped-as-officers-off-duty/

The levy defeat and subsequent dismantling of the sheriff's office, district attorney's staff and juvenile justice program have put Josephine County in a harsh light. Longtime residents say it exposed an anti-government negativity in a place victimized by economic factors it can't control. For decades, Josephine and other Oregon timber counties relied on millions in federal timber sales to pay for sheriff's deputies, jails, roads, prosecutors, health clinics and other services. It seemed a fair deal. Federal land makes up 60 percent of the landbase in some counties, but isn't subject to property taxes. So the feds shared harvest revenue with the counties. They were bound tight. In Josephine County, the shoulder patch on sheriff's uniforms features a loaded log truck. But the near shut-down of logging on federal forests cost the counties dearly. Congress in 2000 approved a payment program to replace the timber money, and extended it twice, but it ended this past year. A proposal to extend the payments once again is stalled in a deadlocked Congress, leaving 33 Oregon counties with combined revenue losses of $215 million annually.
http://photos.oregonlive.com/photo-essay/2012/06/josephine_county_releases_39_p.html

Last year, the Josephine County sheriff’s department lost a multi-million dollar federal subsidy for timber dependent counties.
http://www.opb.org/news/article/josephine-county-tax-levy-would-add-deputies-fund-the-jail/

Hey, bluering! Who's the dipsh#t?

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Um, by definition, County and State LEO is funded by such, not Federal money. Try to find a credible source too.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
bluering, there is none so blind as he who will not see.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
Yet again.. , girlfriend, Wife.. and ......Trayvon.........zimmerman = que chingadera!

Girlfriend says Zimmerman pointed shotgun at her ..Story and 911 call
http://www.alternet.org/chilling-911-call-where-george-zimmerman-tries-frame-his-girlfriend-after-attacking-her
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
He's back.

George Zimmerman arrested for domestic violence


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-arrested-20131118,0,1837318.story
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Zimmerman's in the news again. Nothing good--allegedly pointed a shotgun at his girlfriend and caused some other mischief.
Assuming he did more-or-less that he's charged with, I suppose we could see this in two ways:
1. He in fact is a violent whack job who likely got away with murder (or manslaughter), or
2. He was so stressed out from the trial (which probably never should have happened--as virtually all the commentators agreed that the state fell woefully short of proving its case) that he's now "acting out," and he's really another victim here.
Or some combination of 1 and 2.

I may be leaning a little toward 1--I'd have thought he'd have learned a lesson and would be careful how he handles a gun, even if the TM case was a bit of a political farce.

Reminds me a little of OJ getting busted for kidnapping -- you think people would be extra careful after getting off on a serious charge, but not these guys.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 18, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
2. He was so stressed out from the trial (which probably never should have happened--as virtually all the commentators agreed that the state fell woefully short of proving its case) that he's now "acting out," and he's really another victim here.

Yep. This is all Trayvon's fault.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 20, 2013 - 12:09am PT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 21, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
Good ole' George Z.
Illuminating the idiocy of giving a gun and a badge to any damned fool wanna be cop.
I'll bet there are some jurors with second thoughts. Besides the one juror who's already come out.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 21, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
Illuminating the idiocy of giving a gun and a badge to any damned fool wanna be cop.
Who gave whom a gun or a badge? Can't think of anything like that related to the Zimm/TM case.
Zimm bought his gun (in accordance with his constitutional rights), and he never had any badge that I've ever heard of.

I suppose to people who use high profile cases like this as a proxy to support whatever there world view is, the details don't really matter.



HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 21, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
blahblah
OK, I stand corrected.
It was his own gun. He had been given the implicit if not explicit permission of his "community" and Florida law to carry it.

No, he didn't have an actual badge. He had the EXPLICIT imprimatur of the community to be patrolling at night. With his gun. This was Zimmerman's state of mind as proven by the known sequence of events.

Regardless of who was at fault for originating the confrontation, allowing an unqualified and untrained person to operate in that capacity has proven to be lunacy. When confronted (from behind) by a person in the night with no police badge Martin had two choices. Fight or flee. He obviously made a bad choice.
Especially since it now appears Zimmerman is emotionally unstable.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 21, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Zim is an idiot.

But it doesn't change the fact that most of the criminals who are legally shot while perpetrating violent crimes are shot by civilians rather than cops.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 21, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
Dr F writes:

"I wonder when blah, Chaz and Dirt Claud will stop trying to be apologists for Zim"



Only in your imagination am I defending Zimmermann.

Are you sure you're a doctor?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 21, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
most of the criminals who are legally shot while perpetrating violent crimes are shot by civilians rather than cops.

interesting, Toker

got a link, a source, as to where you got this assumption?
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Nov 21, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
But it doesn't change the fact that most of the criminals who are legally shot while perpetrating violent crimes are shot by civilians rather than cops.

Meaningless statistic, even if true, but I can say without a shred of research that 100% of civilians or cops that are illegally shot are shot by criminals with guns, and that number is orders of magnitude higher than the number of criminals shot by cops or civilians.

Its some consolation that some people will now see the kind of person they've been defending, as if it wasn't obvious from the start.

TE


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 21, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
If you believe a man being beaten when he's down has a right to defend himself, it doesn't follow that you support domestic violence.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 21, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
If you don't think a man has the right to defend himself from attack by an armed assailant, you must believe in domestic violence.

And I don't count Skittles as a weapon, so don't go there.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 21, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Once you have a guy on the ground, you have to stop beating on him. You can only legally employ violence in support of self-defense.

Too bad New Girlfriend didn't have a gun, because it seems as if she had a Stand-Your-Ground situation of her own at work there.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 22, 2013 - 10:40am PT
Once you have a guy on the ground, you have to stop beating on him.

Sorry, Chaz, if a guy's come after me with a gun and I got him on the ground, I ain't letting him up.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 22, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
a bunch of wusses "discussing" excuses for their own weakness, submissiveness to criminals, inability and refusal to stand up for themselves, and general lack of guts, and other liberal vomit.
I'll go out an' git me a Glock this weekend. 3 magazines and 2 boxes of full metal jacket ammo. Then uh won' be a sniveling pussy no more.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Nov 22, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
"And other liberal bullshit" . LOL.

You sound like such a savage Tioga do you have hair on your chest or just your palms?
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jan 14, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
^I'm totally okay with people carrying concealed weapons in their own home.


and on that subject, this has got to be one of the most poorly written articles ever penned
CARSON CITY, NV - A scary situation for a Carson City homeowner Thursday night. A man, covered in blood, broke into a home. But the homeowner quickly grabbed a gun, and opened fire.

According to Carson City Sheriff Ken Furlong, a man was spotted in the area of Butti Way and Airport Road with blood all over him just before 5:00 p.m Thursday.

Minutes earlier, the man ran into a home in the 3100 block of Desatoya Drive where a homeowner opened fire on the man, as he was trying to enter his house.

The homeowner pulled out a gun and shot toward the intruder several times. Officials believe the intruder was shot in the leg, but it's unclear if that happened before or after breaking into the home.

According to the Carson City Sheriff, the intruder then fled the home and jumped a fence where he first spotted. He was caught by deputies nearby.

The man was then taken to Renown Regional Medical Center.

The residents of the house, the man and his wife, were treated for minor injuries. The Carson City Sheriff's Office did not specify how they were injured.

from most of the updates it appears he never entered the home, but was shot in the back yard after jumping the fence. and it doesn't look like he was planning to hurt anybody, but was running from another altercation.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jan 14, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
like i said, the LATEST UPDATES point to him only entering the back yard.
Update: A man is being transported via Careflight to Renown Medical Center in Reno for a gunshot wound to the leg.
According to Carson City Sheriff Kenny Furlong, the man was seen running though the city's corporate yard area on Butti Way. He then ran into the backyard of home in the 3100 block Desatoya. The resident of that home reportedly fired several shots at the alleged intruder, striking him in the leg.
Furlong said they think this man was the only suspect involved. The man was said to be bloodied at the time he entered the backyard. Detectives were called to second home where the altercation may have started, said Furlong. According to deputies on the scene, several subjects are in custody at that second home.

Besides, it's not like he was carrying a loaded tube of biscuits or anything.
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 14, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
The morbid curiosity factor of the Florida Theater shooting is a 10 here.
Need to get the victims last words TEXT'd so the headline can be:
Man Dies Because He Had To Send This Stupid Message.....
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 17, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.salon.com/2014/05/17/white_supremacist_george_zimmerman_defender_flip_flops_says_he_should_have_been_found_guilty_partner/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

I feel extremely creeped out now....must wash hands..
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 24, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
The Justice Department said its independent investigation found "insufficient evidence" to charge George Zimmerman with federal civil right violations in the shooting death of Florida teen Trayvon Martin.

Attorney General Eric Holder said the evidence did not meet the "high standard for a federal hate crime prosecution," but the decision should not end efforts to explore racial tensions in the justice system. The decision closes the federal investigation.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 11, 2015 - 11:18am PT
Zimmerman just got injured from a gunshot?
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
May 11, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-george-zimmerman-shooting-20150511-story.html

Road rage incident.
George Zimmerman, who has had a series of legal scrapes since he was acquitted in the death of Trayvon Martin, was involved in a shooting in Lake Mary, Fla., police said Monday.

Zimmerman had a confrontation with a man named Matthew Apperson, who reported the shooting to 911, Lake Mary Police Officer Bianca Gillett said at a news conference. Zimmerman was not the shooter, she told reporters.

Last September, Apperson had a confrontation during what police said was a road rage incident. No charges were involved.

Gillette says investigators have not determined how or why the latest confrontation took place.

Attorney Don West, who represents Zimmerman, told the Associated Press that a bullet missed Zimmerman's head. Zimmerman was sprayed with glass from his vehicle's windshield and other debris, said the lawyer who added that Zimmerman was treated and released from a hospital.
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
May 12, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
This is getting pathetic. Does anyone still believe this guy's line of bullshit from the Martin case?

Law enforcement officials recovered a handgun that is believed to be George Zimmerman's after he was involved in a shooting Monday, the latest in a rash of incidents since he was acquitted in the 2012 shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

On Monday, a confrontation took place in Lake Mary, Fla., between Zimmerman and Matthew Apperson, who reported the shooting to 911. Officials with the Lake Mary Police Department have said Zimmerman was not the shooter.

Law enforcement officials obtained a warrant for Apperson's vehicle, from which they recovered a .40-caliber Glock 22 and a .357 revolver with one spent shell casing, authorities said. Both guns are Apperson's. A third handgun, a Glock, that police believe is Zimmerman's was also recovered from the vehicle.

Officers have yet to obtain a search warrant for Zimmerman's vehicle.

In September, Apperson had a confrontation with Zimmerman during what police said was a road rage incident. No charges were involved.

Investigators have not determined how or why the latest confrontation took place, Lake Mary Police Officer Bianca Gillett said Monday.

Attorney Don West, who represents Zimmerman, told the Associated Press that a bullet missed Zimmerman's head. Zimmerman was sprayed with glass from his vehicle's windshield and other debris, said the lawyer, who added that his client was treated and released from a hospital.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 12, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Wouldn't suprise me one bit if he ends up on the wrong end of a shoot out someday.

Barbarian

climber
May 12, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
Just a small withdrawal from the Bank of Bad Karma...I'm sure he will make others...his account is very full.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 12, 2015 - 04:20pm PT
Bob Ford wannabe.

son of stan

Boulder climber
San Jose CA
May 12, 2015 - 04:40pm PT
How did Zim's glock wind up in the other guys car?
Probably a typo. Serious typo. News stories are written by morons so often these days.
This guy is stalking Zim obviously. Did he burgle Zim's car and take
a gun?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 12, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
This is getting pathetic. Does anyone still believe this guy's line of bullshit from the Martin case?

Remember he did not testify in the Martin case--that case wasn't really as much about his "bullshit" as it was about a fight where no one really saw who threw the first punch or who was beating who up before the fatal shot (although there's no doubt that Martin injured Zimm)--just too much uncertainty to find Zimm guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Also keep in mind that Martin's family never filed a civil suit against Zimm, which strongly suggests that it wasn't only the high "beyond a reasonable doubt" burden of proof that protected Zimm. Rather, the family must have been advised that there was a negative expectation to any lawsuit--they likely wouldn't be able to prove fault even with a preponderance of the evidence burden of proof, and there was a significant risk that Martin's family would be required to pay Zimm's legal fees.
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
May 12, 2015 - 05:34pm PT
blahblah, I hear what you're saying, technically the jury returned the correct verdict. Still the question remains, does anyone till support this nutjob?
couchmaster

climber
May 19, 2016 - 09:51am PT

It's an interested and disturbing read, for a librul too I'd bet:

" Why George Zimmerman won't vote for Hillary
Posted By Jack Cashill On 05/18/2016 @ 7:19 pm

Like just about every other person on the left – save for attorney Alan Dershowitz – Hillary Clinton has actively embraced the falsehoods surrounding the 2012 shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

Not surprisingly, the living symbol of those fictions, Martin’s birth mother, Sybrina Fulton, has endorsed Hillary. “Sybrina, you and all mothers of gun violence victims have taught us hate will never win,” Hillary tweeted last week. “Thinking of you today.”

For the last four years, George Zimmerman has struggled under the weight of this agitprop and is openly hostile to those, like Clinton, who profit from it.

This week the Daily Beast interviewed Zimmerman in no small part to understand his aversion to Clinton. Those of us who know the case – I wrote a book on the subject, “If I Had a Son” – came away thinking that Zimmerman was the only honest person in that interview room.

True to form on the left, four years after the shooting, well after all the evidence was revealed, the Daily Beast insisted on repeating as fact all the fictions the media spun in the first month after Martin’s death.

Zimmerman, a “wannabe cop” in a “gated community” had “a fascination with police officers and laudatory praise for all they do.” His suspicion of Martin was “only based upon the fact that Martin was black, male, and wearing a hooded sweatshirt.”

Zimmerman followed Martin even after the dispatcher told him not to. They got into an “altercation.” Zimmerman was “not anywhere close to death.” The killing was “senseless.”

This is all grotesquely wrong. In 2012, Zimmerman was an Obama supporter and a civil rights activist. The year before he personally led the crusade to bring justice to Sherman Ware, a black homeless man sucker punched by the son of a white police lieutenant in Sanford, Florida.

At a public meeting in January 2011, Zimmerman took the floor and said, “I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white. It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those that are in the thin blue line.”

This meeting was recorded on video. As a result of the publicity, the police chief, whom Zimmerman blasted for his “illegal cover-up and corruption,” was forced to resign.

The left wiped this history from the record even before Zimmerman went to trial. In perhaps the most shameful collective swath of misreporting in the history of American journalism, they corrupted just about every other bit of evidence as well.

Jack Cashill’s latest book illustrates how the neo-Puritan progressive movement came to mimic a religion in its structure but not at all in its spirit — order “Scarlet Letters: The Ever-Increasing Intolerance of the Cult of Liberalism”

No, Zimmerman did not follow Martin because he was black but because he was peering into windows in the rain in a community that was reeling from burglaries and home invasions.

When the dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop following Martin, he did stop. Martin circled back to confront Zimmerman. An aspiring mixed martial artist nearly half-a-foot taller, he sucker punched the unsuspecting neighborhood watch captain, knocked him down and jumped on top of him.

“It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other,” the one good eyewitness told the cops immediately after the incident. “I tried to tell them, get out of here, you know, stop or whatever, and then one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

In the only other book written on the case, “Suspicion Nation,” NBC reporter Lisa Bloom did not report either Zimmerman’s involvement in the Sherman Ware case or the crucial testimony of the best eyewitness to Martin’s attack on Zimmerman. That is how corrupt the media have become.

With the exception of those at Fox News, reporters and producers from every major network actively conspired to send an innocent man to prison for the rest of his life.

This lethal media narrative spawned the Black Lives Matter movement. From the beginning its advocates hewed to this narrative and insisted that politicians do too. Hillary Clinton has obliged them.

Fulton, in fact, has endorsed Clinton. Hillary has appeared at various campaign events with her and will speak at a three-day confab in Fort Lauderdale hosted by the Trayvon Martin Foundation this month.

George Zimmerman knows better than anyone just how false and dangerous is the alliance between the BLM and the Democratic Party, and he is not afraid to attack its symbols.

“Sybrina Fulton and [father] Tracy Martin did everything they could to capitalize on her son’s death,” Zimmerman told the Daily Beast.

“She was never a mother figure to him. Tracy Martin couldn’t have cared less about their son. He treated him like a dog without a leash.”

Although a little harsh, Zimmerman’s assessment is much closer to the truth about Martin’s parents than the one Hillary has chosen to believe.

Martin’s parents split when he was 3. His stepmother raised him until he was 15 when his father, Tracy Martin, abandoned her, too, for still another women.

From 15 until his death at 17, Martin drifted all but unwatched into a life of drugs, fighting, burglary and even guns. In one fateful minute, Zimmerman learned more about the real Trayvon Martin than his parents knew or that the media would ever care to know.

If the Trayvon Martin case were anomalous, it would not be so dangerous – but Martin’s biography reads scarily like that of every other “victim” BLM celebrates, Ferguson’s Michael Brown most obviously.

Rather than address the crippling problems in black culture, leftists like Clinton condemn Zimmerman for his failure to accept their assessment of him – in the words of the Daily Beast – as “one of the 21st century’s greatest villains.”

The outspoken Zimmerman would have preferred to live his life “like a normal person,” he told the Daily Beast. “However, I’m not afforded that luxury anymore. You guys. The media. The masses. The Fulton-Martin family. They took that from me.”"
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 19, 2016 - 10:00am PT
Awww, poor George the little victim. {*sniffle*}
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 19, 2016 - 11:47am PT
Teenager kicks his ass and he pulls a gun. Pussy, imo.

Are you serious, Jeremy?
John M

climber
May 19, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
thanks couch master... that certainly reads a lot differently then the media portrayal of him. And if he really did back off when told to by the dispatch, then that changes the story quite a bit.

at this point it is so hard to figure out the truth.

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 19, 2016 - 12:24pm PT
Great article, lol, it tells us everything we heard is unsubstantiated lies, then goes on the state a bunch of unsubstantiated "facts" straight from Zimmerman.

We don't know what happened that night, but Zimmerman by his own words has said things that identify him as someone I wouldn't trust in the least. And he's had a number of other legal problems.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 19, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
Whatever happened, it's pretty clear that George the victim went out looking for trouble that night.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 19, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
I think he picked a fight and was getting his ass kicked so pulled his gun. IMO, that's weak.

If that's what actually happened, then I agree it's weak.

The problem is that we won't ever know what really happened. Our nation is getting pretty polarized over an increasing spectrum of incidents that amount to pure speculation about what really happened. Opinions (and media fluff) are taken as fact, and then people draw and argue about strong conclusions drawn from contradictory "evidence" that bears little if any relation to the facts (about which, in most cases, we can know virtually nothing).

Such is the case with Martin/Zimmerman, imo. Lots of media attention and strong reactions; precious little actual facts.

John M

climber
May 19, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
certainly zimmerman is not a sympathetic person. He reads to me like a person with anger issues, plus an authority issue.

my point was simply that the media portrayal of this being a black and white case of someone stalking a black person just because he is black doesn't stand up to some of the things that can be proven as fact, such as zimmerman defending publicly a black man agains the police. That happened. There are tapes of it. Plus he had a black business partner.

the mainstream media portrayed him as a far right gun nut who hated blacks. And squashed anything that portrayed him differently.

this is the problem with trying cases in public.

And I am not defending Zimmerman.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 19, 2016 - 04:40pm PT
Thank you, Jeremy. I appreciate your graciousness.
Rollover

climber
Gross Vegas
May 19, 2016 - 04:48pm PT

F'n scumbag attention whore.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2016 - 11:40am PT
Apparently, you're not allowed to stand your ground in Florida while in motion.

SANFORD — The Seminole County man convicted of shooting at George Zimmerman as the two drove down Lake Mary Boulevard in separate vehicles was sentenced today to 20 years in prison.

A Seminole County jury found 37-year-old Matthew Apperson guilty last month of attempted second-degree murder, armed aggravated assault and shooting into a vehicle.

This morning Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson handed down the state-mandated minimum: 20 years for shooting at another person with a gun.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/os-matthew-apperson-sentence-20161014-story.html
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Oct 17, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
Apparently, you're not allowed to stand your ground in Florida while in motion.

Hypothetical - in an RV one might actually be able to stand... an argument could be made that this changes things. Also, would it matter if belligerents are in the same RV vs. two separate RVs? One would think it might.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
So if that guy had been a midget and standing on the seat when he shot at Zimmerman, he'd be good under Florida law? Good point ...oopsie.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 10, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-florida-theater-shooting-20170310-story.html

Texters are not fair game in Florida.
A Florida judge has denied a "'stand your ground" defense for a retired Florida police officer who fatally shot a man in a movie theater over texting.

Judge Susan Barthle ruled Friday that 74-year-old Curtis Reeves must stand trial in the death of 43-year-old Chad Oulson. Reeves is charged with second-degree murder.

Reeves said he shot Oulson after he was either punched or hit in the face with a cellphone. The judge said video of the events that afternoon didn't support his testimony.

The incident happened in a movie theater in a suburb north of Tampa, after the two men got into an argument because Oulson was texting his daughter's day care provider during the coming attraction trailers.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 10, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
Good. I had been watching for the outcome of that case. Straight up murder. Imagine if the shooter had been an African American youth. Do you think he would have gotten the benefit of the stand your ground defense? That law is basically a get out jail free card for cowards with guns.

It's going to get worse though. Despite all kinds of unsavory folks in bar and gang fights invoking the law (where in 68% of cases the victims were unarmed), Florida is looking to push the law further, requiring prosecutors to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the shooter did not reasonably believe they were in danger. I find it fascinating (but far more troubling) that gun owners whine for the 2nd Amendment rights but then seek to enact laws which relieve them of any consequence that comes from carrying around such a dangerous instrument.
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