Florida stand Your ground law?

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Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
Chaz gets it.

"Stand your ground" doesn't apply here.

There's a difference between standing your ground, and looking for trouble.

This Zimmermann guy was looking for trouble.

Blahsh#t, the SYG law says "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity..." it does not say "a person who is not guilty of an unlawful activity..."


"Who started this? Who followed who? Who was minding their own business? Of the two, who was the one that was armed?"
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
Wessy, instead of playing amateur lawyer (badly), just read the fuking jury instructions (pasted below).
And then answer this, how will the jury know that Zimm was committing the misdemeanor you think he was, when the prosecution never even contended that he was, and the jury won't even be aware of the existence of that misdemeanor, much less the elements necessary to establish guilt?

SYG doesn't even have much if anything to do with this case--all it really means, in this case, is that Zimm had no duty to retreat unless he was engaged in unlawful activity. But "duty to retreat" never applied here, as the deadly force occurred after Zimm was getting grounded and pounded by TM.
You can still use deadly force even if you have engaged in unlawful activity, it's just not under SYG (and of course it has qualifications).

Here's an example to make this concrete: Wes goes into porn store to steal butt plug. Gets caught by cashier, who pulls out shotgun and says he'll kill Wes for that. Wes knows he can safely run out of the store before getting shot, but decides to pull out his gun and shoot cashier instead.
Wes cannot take advantage of SYG in that case, because he was engaged in unlawful activity. He had a duty to retreat.

If Wes hadn't committed any crime and the cashier said he'll shoot Wes because he doesn't like the way Wes looks, Wes would have the right to shoot cashier, even if he could have safely retreated, under SYG.

This is all sorta interesting, but doesn't have much to do with Zimm's case.

JUSTIFIABLE USE OF DEADLY FORCE
An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense. It is a
defense to the crime of Second Degree Murder, and the lesser included offense of
Manslaughter, if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.
“Deadly force” means force likely to cause death or great bodily harm.
A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is
necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.
In deciding whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you
must judge him by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was
used. The danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify
the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably
cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the
danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, George
Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.
If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any
place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his
ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was
necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent
the commission of a forcible felony.
In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical
abilities and capacities of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the
question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should
find George Zimmerman not guilty
However, if from the evidence you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that
George Zimmerman was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find him guilty if all
the elements of the charge have been proved.

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Zimmerman_Final_Jury_Instructions.pdf
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Radically provoking a confrontation while carrying a firearm is profoundly blameworthy...and this ending with loss of his innocent victims life, Mr Zimmerman should be punished...even if essential doubts posit toward a manslaughter conviction.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
how will the jury know that Zimm was committing the misdemeanor you think he was,

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah.

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Here's an example to make this concrete:

Not sure if you realize this because you are clearly a complete fuking idiot, but

1) Zimmerman (the pursuer) was the only one with a gun.
2) There isn't a SHRED of evidence that Trayvon was committing ANY crime.
3) It is NOT the duty of a neighborhood watchman to confront potential wrongdoers. They are explicitly told not to get physically involved.
4) Zimmerman went out of his way, not to follow Trayvon and report his duties to the authorities, but to intercept and confront him.

Therefore, your example is COMPLETELY irrelevant and idiotic... possibly more so than your existence.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
Hilarious! But Wessy, why would the jury conclude that what you wrote means that Zimm did anything unlawful? You remember the dispatcher's testimony that they cannot and do not tell callers what to do?
And you remember that Zimmerman told the dispatcher "OK"? (Whether Zimm did in fact keep following Trayvon, or just came across him, is disputed.)

And even if he did do something unlawful, he's still allowed to use deadly force, as explained in the jury instruction!

OK I'm done with Wes on this, he's been beaten as bad as TM was beating Zimm.

2) There isn't a SHRED of evidence that Trayvon was committing ANY crime.

Wes, you either know very little about this case or you're pathetically stupid (or both), so you should just STFU.
The wounds to Zimm, the condition of TM's body (abraded knucks from punching Zimm), and direct eyewitness testimony establish that TM was beating the fuk outta Zimm.
That's a CRIME you fuking pathetic idiot!!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
So two guys get in a fight in your neighborhood at night.
One is whupping the other. But NOT choking him, or pulling a knife or a club.
The whuppee pulls his gun and shoots the whupper dead.

Manslaughter? You bet, In My Not So Humble Opinion.
But hey, opinions are like ....... everybody's got one.

The jury verdict will be very interesting.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
Florida Manslaughter Sentencing:

Manslaughter with a Weapon or Firearm

The crime of Manslaughter with a Weapon or Firearm is classified as a First Degree Felony and is assigned a Level 7 offense severity ranking under Florida's Criminal Punishment Code.

If convicted of Manslaughter, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 9¼ years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:

Up to 30 years in prison.
Up to 30 years of probation.
Up to $10,000 in fines.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

So in your world of idiocy, I can pick a fight in a bar and then shoot the person "in self-defense?"

You have proven yourself stupid beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
reasonable
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Ahh, but HT, they say he was slamming fatboy's head against the curb. Could kill someone pretty easy that way.

Bottom line for me: You got out of the car, with a gun, seeking a confrontation knowing that if something escalated or you became afraid you would turn to your trusty sidearm. You weren't "Standing your ground" you were advancing and initiating a confrontation, knowing you had superior weaponry or at a minimum equal, and the drop. Then, while losing the physical confrontation you initiated, you turn to your sidearm and kill the person. The end. F*#k you. Guilty. Go to prison.

Don't care about racism, pot smoking, lying to judges, knock knock jokes, or any other sideshow minutiae.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
reasonable has nothing to do with it when blah is involved.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
they let a crazy old f*#kin off the hook for first degree murder just a couple years ago because of this stand your ground trash

he phoned into 911, said we was watching his neighbors home being burglarized... said the perp were climbing in the window...

while the 911 opperator kept him on the phone and the police got around to arriving he talked worse sh#t than zimmerman

when the burglers finally were climbing back out the windown he told the 911 operator to go to hell and that doing the right think was up to him since the cops wernt there

he dropped the phone
marched out of his house
and across to his neighbor property and shot dead a man carrying a vcr...

cold blooded premeditated murder

and he got off because the system believed that a racist f*#k who runs to get in front of anyone is then free to fear for his life IF he says he feared for his life

the previous 10 minutes of bluster on the line with the 911 operator not withstanding


enjoy your ideas about zimmerman being a stand up guy and not guilty of murder

not many chances for racist to yell niqqer in public anymore and your obviously giddy at the chance to air out your racist dipsh#t

enjoy

your breed is chasing the dodo


perhaps you should tell the children their boats not rising with the tide?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
Vigilantes aren't trained law enforcement. Why didn't he just call the po-po like any good neighborhood watch person?

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Did Tray walk up to Zimm and start beating the fuk outta him?

Or did Zimm get out of his car with a gun and confront Tray for being "up to no good or on drugs or something" because he wasn't going to let another one of "those as#@&%es get away with it?"

I don't think self-defense applies when you are following someone for no reason and initiate the confrontation. Apparently a lot of white male conservatives think it does.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
first degree, premeditated.
he intended to INSTIGATE a precise confrontation which would allow him as he seen it

to draw down on an unarmed kid and shoot him dead for simply catching his attentions

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 13, 2013 - 12:16am PT
George Zimmerman may have designed instigating a confrontation to shoot someone...

Sadly,proving premeditation wasn't going to happen in this prosecution. Even a manslaughter conviction might persuade some truculents that society won't tolerate neurotic/paranoid vigilantes agitating for assassination...
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 13, 2013 - 12:54am PT
Closing argument.....(Prosecutor picking up Mic and speaking into it.)
You can't let this guy back on the street and here's why: (Tape rolling of Hannity Interview)
HANNITY: Is there anything you regret? Do you regret getting out of the car to follow Trayvon that night?
ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.
HANNITY: Do you regret that you had a gun that night?
ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.
HANNITY: Do you feel you wouldn't be here for this interview if you didn't have that gun?
ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.
HANNITY: You feel you would not be here?
ZIMMERMAN: I feel it was all God's plan and for me to second guess it or judge it --
HANNITY: Is there anything you might do differently in retrospect now that the time has passed a little bit?
ZIMMERMAN: No, sir. (end of tape)

Prosecutor: You heard him. If had to do it all over again, he would it do it. You mean he would murder someone elses child like the Martins, who went to the store to buy skittles for his brother and an ice tea for himself? Out of his own mouth, he said if had to do it all over again he would not change a thing!
Look at this picture (Travon and his father) There is a mother and a father in this court room who wish they could have their son back but yet if it was up to Mr. Zimmerman, he wouldn't change a thing. Mr. Hannity asked him "Is there anything you might do differently in retrospect "now that the time has passed a little bit?" His response No sir.
Out of his own mouth, you heard it yourself, he said because he believe it was god's will!
It was like a voice from heaven, when he was told, not to follow Travon. How else did the non emergercy
operator know that something was wrong. Was it god's plan for a mother father and brother to suffer the agony of their love one? Was it god's plan for a child, a teenager, to be killed because he went to the store to get skittles and ice tea. (Drop the mic

Your hero...
F*#king right wing cowards ...
A sh#t stain on humanity ... Everyone of you
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:20am PT
gotta agree with the RIGHT WING COWARDS thing...you don't NEED a gun to defend yourself if you BELIEVE in yourself...


a crazy ass right wing CRACKER may kill you because HE NEEDS a GUN to PROVE his manhood...

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:50am PT
I'm sorry, but this tragedy trancends right wing / left wing bickering...

Uncalled for shedding of innocent blood begs elemental justice... not purchase for more polarization.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:42am PT
mabe if we'd have deregulated justice like these tards want we would have gotten the more vigorous prosecutions justice demands and this killer woulda been strange fruit a year ago
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