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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:23pm PT
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Hello everyone.
I am slightly disappointed with the reaction to Dave's superhuman effort, having done that hardest piece of climbing ever to have been done on gear.
Dave Macleod is to me, as he is to you, a foreigner. I congratulate him on his effort, so should you.
Why get political? Why make yourselves look like you are up your own backsides? Why not congratulate?
Also. You say that the best climbing is in the States. Why does you best climber live in Switzerland?
8A
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:25pm PT
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8a (hvs max) writes: Why does you best climber live in Switzerland?
I don't. Someone has lied to you.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:26pm PT
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Still doesn't say how many times Dave TRed the line over those 2 years.
"Winnie the Pooh"
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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
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Probably hundreds. Why would he keep count?
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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:32pm PT
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In reply to Russ Walling:
I don't climb trad.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:34pm PT
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I say congratulations to Dave as well! I wouldn't call the ascent traditional but I also think headpointing is cool as well - got no problems with it.
Grit ethics aren't trad in a strict sense but I still think they're way cool and I have utmost respect for them. It's an artform that I appreciate as well as participate in myself. I still wouldn't "label" it as "trad" however.
Can't wait to go back to England and try some more Grit routes! peace, jb
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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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In reply to Bachar:
Fair enough, personally I would call it trad, although strictly speaking it is defined as a trad-headpoint.
If the fall is gnarly enough to snap RP wire then I think it deserves more appreciation and less bitching (you aside as a non bitcher).
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 12, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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8A - "Trad headpoint". I agree with that as well. Either way the route looks sick! Just think, someday our kids will be on-sighting this stuff!
Hope to climb with you guys in the UK sometime soon and drink some more of the best beer in the world! cheers, jb
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
Tahoe
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Apr 12, 2006 - 03:13pm PT
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A few thoughts for this thread:
1) Dudes (and dudettes): chill. It's just climbing.
2) Congrats! A proud send.
3) There are different levels of style. The onsite, ground-up is definitely the purest and most respectable. But working a route that's above your level, improving, and then finally sending is also super respectable. Hang dogging and bolting, etc., is less respectable (albeit understandable.) It's okay, no matter what style you choose, provided that you don't permenantly damage the rock AND that you're honest about it.
4) What relevance does old wars between US and Britain have to do with anything? Aren't we allies, now, anyway? So who gives a fvck!?!
(Although I can certainly see how the Brits would be a bit touchy on the subject. "Gave back our country," indeed! That's because they realized they wouldn't be able to govern it - not that we've done an awesome job.) But that still has nothing to do with climbing!!!
5) Sport climbing is neither. :-)
6) Now, everyone, STFU and go climbing!
AK
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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 03:22pm PT
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Tahoe climber:
Go climbing? I have just got back. You're forgetting its a quarter past eight here in England!
Bachar:
No need to go too over the top ;-)
But seriously, good the bitching has finally stopped. You guys arn't as bad as the UKC lot make out.
I think they have disowned Mick Ryan.
8A
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 12, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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Young,Smythe,Brown ect.... spinning in ther graves!!!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 12, 2006 - 05:26pm PT
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ok bachar, you've gone way, way too far now.
EVERYBODY know the best beer in the world is brewed in belgium and right here in the USA.
six packs at 60 paces, mate.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
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Rhapsody E11 7a
Rhapsody E11 7a takes the true finish to Requiem on Dumbarton Rock's main face. The Requiem crack fades out into a blind seam halfway up the wall and the original route follows a flake on the right to the top. It was always an obvious project to climb the seam all the way to the top. After his ascent of Requiem in 1983, Dave Cuthbertson inspected the line, but left it on account of the obviously very hard climbing and "protection problem". The next attention it saw was from me in 2002 after having done Achemine (E9) just to the left. I could only do about half the moves and felt it was very futuristic but possible for someone - there are holds all the way, just very small and unhelpful ones. In early 2004 I managed all but two of the moves. Then in early 2005, after a lot of day on the shunt I managed to climb each of the individual moves. It took the spring and summer of 2005 to build up to linking the line on a top rope, working and training on it almost exclusively (and hardly getting any other climbing done!).
In September I had my first lead attempt - the headwall above the crack feels about F8c in itself and there is no more protection, so a fall from the final moves ends almost back at the belay ledge 60 feet below, with a violent swing and slam into the rock. After falling fairly low in the crux section a couple of times, I made it to the last move, and despite touching the finishing hold, fell, snapping the RP3 runner and falling 70 feet, passing the belay ledge on the way. The lead attempts continued into October, until my worst fear was realised and the rope wrapped itself around my leg as I fell, flipping me upside down, crushing and burning my leg and slamming my back off the wall. I just managed to pull my head out the way, If I hadn't I would be dead. I had already lost the momentum, but then it was completely gone after I snapped off the crucial crux undercut and had to start working a new crux sequence from scratch.
That was it for the season, so I regained my strength and confidence from doing two Font 8b's over winter and training specifically for more attempts in March. Things came together quickly and with Claire belaying me on the first time on the route, I linked it first try on the top rope. The following week I was back on the lead, feeling confident through the crux in perfect conditions and a big crowd below. I was convinced I would make it, but as I adjusted my feet and looked up at the finishing jug, I felt all my strength disappear, elbows come out and confidence evaporate. I slapped the hold but the next instant was flying again with a massive smash off the wall, spraining my ankles, twisting a knee and cutting and bruising my feet.
After several days enforced rest, everything was set for Sunday - good forecast and the positive vibe of Claire holding the rope again. But on arriving at the crag, a two hour blizzard kicked off, ending all hope of getting on the route. But the warm sun came back out and we inspected the line, trying to dry the finishing holds with t-shirts and tissues. At the last minute it was dry and I called Claire. Back on the horrible shake out I felt awful - nervous, negative, I just didn-t want to be there. So I tried to think positive and thought "just climb it then and you won't have to come back here again, either way it will be over in a minute". I shook and wobbled through every move and arrived back staring at the finishing hold. To grab it and pull over after all those times falling is an indescribable feeling. I thought I was going to melt!
After putting everything else aside for two year to climb Rhapsody I'm now looking forward to climbing other places again. A lot of people helped me do this route - thanks! Top effort to Hotaches Diff and Dave Brown (and the team) for filming the whole process; including driving over for every single attempt and spending way too much time shivering at the top of Dumbarton rock waiting for my next go. But with more than 500 feet of airtime on video, I reckon it was worth it eh?
Dave MacLeod (10-04-2006)
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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"I think they have disowned Mick Ryan.
8A"
Odd, they never owned me in the first place.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 12, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
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Don't listen to that 8a clown. He's never even placed a nut!!!!!!!!!!!
BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!
( I hear he can pull like fuk on sport though )
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 12, 2006 - 09:15pm PT
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a wise man once said, after listening to a number of young (and not so young) turks debate a bunch of pointless ethical ephermera vis-a-vis sytle and such, asked this question:
"vy can't ve chust climb??"
"enough of this hiking, when are we going to get on to the climbing??"
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duncan
climber
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Apr 13, 2006 - 07:25am PT
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A little history (for Americans)…
In the beginning, rock-climbing was a development of Alpinism so naturally the accepted style of climbing was ground-up. In the UK, cliffs are small, so the occasional crafty top-rope or abseil inspection is quite easy to rig up and was used on the quiet from quite early on. The fractured nature of the rock meant that most routes had some natural protection and so an anti-piton and then anti-bolt ethic arose to maintain the challenge. By the 1970s the supply of new routes was perceived as drying up and more obscure crags were developed. Frequently these had to be scraped out of the hillside (eg Goat Crag in Borrowdale). In case north American readers are not aware, it rains quite often in the UK and cliff vegetation is frequently prolific, so this required heroic gardening with crowbars and yard brushes. Not something that can be done ground-up. Additionally, the growth of sea-cliff climbing inverted usual practice: you start at the top and frequently abseil down your route to start. The effect of this was that abseil cleaning and inspection became widespread, which lead fairly rapidly to checking holds and the sneaky practicing of sections on the ab. rope. By the early 80s this kind of ‘cheating’ was widespread but frequently unacknowledged, a bit like the practice of ‘yo-yo’ ground-up ascents that were also popular at the time.
Sport climbing came along and changed the rules, ‘Cheating’ was out in the open and became codified. A certain amount practicing and pre-inspection was usual in the local traditional form, so the difference between “trad” climbing and sport climbing was perceived as being bolts. Trad = no bolts; sport = bolts. Battles raged between the bolters and non-bolters in the mid-80s but eventually everyone agreed to get along (mostly).
Head-pointing must be trad. as it doesn’t involve bolts.
A little history (for Brits)…
In the beginning, rock-climbing was a development of Alpinism so naturally the accepted style of climbing was ground-up. In the USA, cliffs are big, so top-rope or abseil inspection is usually damn hard to arrange and people generally didn’t bother. The un-fractured nature of the granite meant that many routes had no natural protection and so the use of bolts was permitted, if placed ground-up to maintain the challenge. In case our UK readers are not aware, those American cliffs are clean, blank and smooth and climbing without bolts is inconceivable. No-one has climbed El Cap without bolts (now there’s a challenge for some ethical Brit…) and no-one thought The Nose was anything less than an awesome achievement despite Warren Harding drilling over a 100 holes on the first ascent. By the 1970s ground-up climbing reached it’s zenith with fearsome routes climbed replete with epic tales of drilling from tiny stances. As standards rose, the routes got steeper and drilling ground-up got harder and harder. Ethics got stretched to permit drilling from hooks or other forms of aid, so long as it was ground-up. By the early 80s this kind of ‘cheating’ was widespread.
Sport climbing came along and changed the rules, ‘Cheating’ was out in the open and became codified. A certain amount of bolting was usual in the local traditional form, so the difference between “trad” climbing and sport climbing was perceived as being one of style. Trad = ground-up; sport = top-down preparation. Battles raged between the rap-bolters and ground-uppers in the mid-80s but eventually everyone agreed to get along (mostly).
Head-pointing can’t be trad. as it involves prior practice.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 13, 2006 - 10:11am PT
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I could nit pick a few little points, but overall that is a really good explanation of the little "cultural divide" that we've been having on this forum. Nice one Duncan.
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