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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 10, 2006 - 07:25am PT
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Single pitch rock of course.
Word has trickled out from ScottishClimbs.com to the UKClimbing.com forums that this weekend Dave MacLeod has climbed the the direct line of the Dave Cuthbertson route, Requiem, on Dumbarton Rock, in Scotland.
MacLeod said recently in the Sunday Herald, “I’ve known about the true line of the Requiem crack since I started climbing; it’s obvious, in your face. You just climb the crack all the way to the top. I’d tried the moves in 2002 when I had just done the first E9 in Scotland and couldn’t even hang on the holds.”
MacLeod who has been trying the route over the last year was known to be getting close. This could be the hardest traditional route in the world and a strong contender for E11. MacLeod has climbed several E10's, bouldered Font 8b and is at the cutting edge of hard Scottish mixed ice climbing.
Many 50ft falls were taken whilst doing the last section which is thought to be around Fr 8c+ or 5.14c
UKClimbing News: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
UKClimbing.com Forums: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=177104
ScottishClimbs.com: http://www.scottishclimbs.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2828
Picture here of Dave MacLeod leading Requiem E8 6b, placing the gear on the lead.
http://www.scotlandonline.com/outdoors/dumbarton/routes.htm
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:37am PT
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Ground up, no TR rehearsal or previewing? jb
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:42am PT
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At that level, does it matter?
He can onsight the next 5.14c, LOL.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:49am PT
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John's not talking onsight, he's talking ground up, no previewing (or dogging I suppose). And yes, it does matter. Not that it takes away the accomplishment, but style always matters.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 10, 2006 - 11:02am PT
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Like I said, he can do the next one to satisfy you style mongers.
If he gets up 5.14c by any means, as long as he free climbs it at some point, and is honest about his effort, and in not claiming to have done it ground up if he didn't do it that way, that's a big deal.
And if you think style always matters, you're nuts. Going home in one piece always matters, style is secondary.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 10, 2006 - 11:16am PT
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Headpoint - the bastard child of British freeeclimbing?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 10, 2006 - 11:27am PT
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Yes indeed...was it a "headpoint" like Grit ethics, or "ground-up" like the Czechs or old school Yosemite boys did it?
just curious, jb
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 10, 2006 - 11:44am PT
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Headpoint style I'm sure. However its basically a safe route, the issue is probably much more about staying cool headed enough to control the pump and handle the super technical moves when climbing way above gear. Its weird rock at Dumbarton all downsloping and technical. It said that he did Requiem placing the gear, but it didn,t say if he placed the gear when he did the direct.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2006 - 01:35pm PT
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I'm sure Jerry's right John but MacCleod had been quiet on any reports yet. Not sure if on first acquaintance everything was onsight.
I do know that he did lead the original Requiem placing the gear as he went whereas previous ascents had pre-placed gear (three I think after Cubby's first ascent).
Still not to be sniffed at, there are bolts at this cliff and sport routes.
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Dru
climber
HELL, BABY, HELL!
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Apr 10, 2006 - 02:35pm PT
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how long until reardon solos it?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Apr 10, 2006 - 02:51pm PT
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he already did, but he's so humble he didn't tell anyone.
no witnesses, but he's got some pictures of himself on top and tieing his shoes at the base to prove that he did it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 10, 2006 - 02:52pm PT
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I had to go back and check, but now that I look I do see that Trotter headpointed the "East Face of Monkey Face". I think jb's point is well taken; redefining "traditional" to include headpointing would be quite a stretch of both the term and its use.
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scuffy b
climber
S Cruz
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Apr 10, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
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Is headpointing getting a thing wired on toprope and then leading it?
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jack splat
climber
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Apr 10, 2006 - 03:37pm PT
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Todays hardest "trad" climbs are always top-roped and rehearsed. Todays top climbers have decided that's how they want to climb. It's pretty much just scary sport-climbing. Until I've taken a fifty-footer off a .14c onto a small nut, I'm not going to compare it for better or worse to how things were done back in the day.
It's just really really rad, and really really hard.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 10, 2006 - 03:43pm PT
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If it ain't ground-up, on-sight - it ain't trad. Peace, jb
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jack splat
climber
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Apr 10, 2006 - 03:50pm PT
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Not in the old sense, but times change. Would you call it sport climbing?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 10, 2006 - 04:02pm PT
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"If it ain't ground-up, on-sight - it ain't trad. Peace, jb"
Well how would you describe all those routes in places like Squamish and New Hampshire which had to be dug out from under a thick coating of dirt and lichen. For the purpose of the article trad means natural protection as opposed to bolts, but I do think whether the gear was preplaced or placed on the lead makes a lot of difference, and is an important detail.
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jack splat
climber
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Apr 10, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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Was it not part of the "trad game" back in the day to rehearse hard climbs and later free-solo them?
It's really just about respect, whatever you call it,
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 10, 2006 - 05:08pm PT
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Actually Jack Splat, so much frigging went on that by modern definitions a lot of routes from the 70's and 80's never really had proper first ascents. My favorite was the "rule" that you could restart an attempt from a no hands rest, which on slabs and corners meant just about anywhere on the pitch. Or how about when big gangs of climbers would get together leapfrogging protection up a climb, the guy who got the credit for the lead might only have actually led the last few feet. Obviously we would all prefer to have onsighted everything we tried, it just didn't happen very often. I've done plenty of yo-yo ascents of hard gear routes in the past but I have to admit that the end result of the headpoint, that clean lead, placing all the gear is a lot more satisfying. And in the end, if some pompous oaf doesn't think your ascent lives up to the high ideals of "trad", who gives a s**t.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2006 - 05:23pm PT
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Maybe we should have a SPRAD category for when it's not exactly perfect trad but gear is placed and longer falls risked.
Is Magic Line a SPRAD route? I'd like to seem somebody do a second ascent before we assume it's not a sandbag at 14b.
Peace
karl
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Apr 10, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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I was involved in a lot of first ascents in the 70's and 80's and while the routes were yoyo'd to put the gear in, whoever finished the route had just climbed it from the ground up. However, some of the route was probably done on toprope because we didn't always pull the rope for the next person. I don't remember people getting all agro about pulling the rope until routes started getting steeper and you were better off leading anyway. There were lots of routes that were done in a community style. I wouldn't even want to try to count how many people were involved in some routes (Safety in Numbers and Simple Simon at JT are 2 that especially come to mind).
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 10, 2006 - 07:53pm PT
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Magic Line is a pinkpoint - never been truly led. So essentially an invisible top rope. Come on Beth - you can do it!
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jack splat
climber
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:03pm PT
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Aldude wrote:
"So essentially an invisible top rope"
What is an invisable top-rope? Is it like a make-believe bolt? Or more like an imaginary harness?
Do you have to be a stoner to detect the imaginary top-rope? Did Ron know he was using an invisible top-rope?
When you go to climb it will it be an imaginary ascent? If you are in a position to call Ron's lead a non-lead are you going to do it in a better style? (even if it's only in your imagination?)
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:22pm PT
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Didn't say I could or would - just that he didn't.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:28pm PT
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Invisible top rope = protection placed from the top for future pseudo lead activity.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:45pm PT
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headpointing is an intersting spin-off of climbing as i learned it, but if a lot of climbers i know had allowed themselves to "headpoint" in the late 70's and through the '80's they'd be fully sponsored american legends with half-a-hundred climbing magazine covers to their credit.
getting a hard, dicey, poorly protected climb wired on TR and then doing a single lead burn on it is one of "the games climbers play". but it's not -- and i hate this term -- "trad" climbing, and it's not even in the same ballpark as an on-sight lead with no beta. and it's especially not even in the same NEBULA as an on-sight solo.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:50pm PT
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"Going home in one piece always matters, style is secondary."
Out of 100 possible style points, going home in one piece nets you 90, regardless of what else happens.
Brutus
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:53pm PT
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So after reading all the rants above, what is one to do?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:04pm PT
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I'm thinking of going to find Osama bin Laden on-sight solo and collect that reward money.
But I was also thinking of trying to on-sight swim to Hawaii with none of those weeny back-up boats around....can't decide yet.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:37pm PT
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All of this anecdotal evidence about how it REALLY was 'back in the day' simply poisons our ability to hold current style up to a revisionist and idyllic history. It's all bullocks.
Look, before sport-o's ruined everything all first ascents were done ground up placing all the gear and drilling everything from stances...period. Just because your personal ascents didn't hold up to this style doesn't mean you have to ruin it for the rest of us.
C'mon Aldude back me up here.
-Spinmaster
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:42pm PT
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All this belly aching is pretty lame, its a gear protected 14c with really big fall potential. Call it what you want.
By the way Micks original post gives the impression that Cubby headpointed the first ascent which is not the case. It was a good old fashioned ground up siege, with no prior top roping, and done in really unfavourable hot conditions, a rare occurrence in Scotland. Not bad for 1983.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:44pm PT
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riiiight. but what has this guy done at rubidoux, huh?
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Light&Fast!!!
climber
calgary
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
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What is safer? Splitter crack or bolted "sport" route? Well I can place gear ever f*#king foot if I wanted to in a crack. Bolts are like 5 feet apart or more most the time. So what is sport climbing again?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:49pm PT
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I'm sure he wasn't the least bit interested in your So Cal chosspiles, he had bigger fish to fry.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 10, 2006 - 11:32pm PT
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yeah, i've heard that excuse before. hardmen gunning for sponsorships really, really hate getting shut down on old e.b. routes.
which bring up a seperate related point: what's with the media these days?? a certain female media darling, whose name shall go unmentioned, repeated cosmic debris a year or two ago and it was "STOP THE PRESSES!!! COSMIC DEBIS REPEATED IN A THREE DAY SEIGE, 24 YEARS AFTER BILL PRICE's F.A.!!!!"
we read that and went, wtf???
ok, in the intervening years the route had been done faster quite a few times, with no mention in the climbing media whatsoever.
anythime i hear.."the hardest new [fill in the blank] climb in the world!! my bullshit detector starts blaring.
i just don't buy hype anymore. not at the crags, not in magazines, and sure as shite not on the inTARDweb.
whatever, nevermind...
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2006 - 11:36pm PT
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Can you guys on the West coast keep the noise down a bit as us East coasters are trying to get to bed and all those Brits are fast asleep clutching their invisible top ropes.
Especially you BVB, THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT AT THE TOP OF YOUR VOICE.
Mick
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:03am PT
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Author:
Karl Baba
Trad climber
From: Yosemite, Ca
Maybe we should have a SPRAD category for when it's not exactly perfect trad but gear is placed and longer falls risked.
Is Magic Line a SPRAD route? I'd like to seem somebody do a second ascent before we assume it's not a sandbag at 14b.
Peace
karl ""
This made my day. I luv yew Karl, LOL.
Sprad climbing.
Marvelous!
You gotta define it properly now. This is history in the making.
And I am one of those who thinks that getting back to a no hands rest after a fall and then reclimbing everything from there is OK. In fact, it might be a lot harder than lowering and resting on the ground for a bit. Of course, if you can't lower to a no hands rest, then you gotta go all the way down. Overhanging climbs would tend to take care of themselves, haha.
I don't really have a problem with headpointing either, as long as you don't claim an onsight, or grade by the headpointed/redpointed method as opposed to the onsight method.
I do draw the line at pink pointing.
Sure, onsighting an FA is the coolest of cool, can't argue that.
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:13am PT
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Good for the bro who sent it. Until you or I go do it in better style, it's just a interweb wankfest to slag on the dude.
Can YOU pull the moves? I can't. Beyond that, it's a bunch of old f*ckers pissing their depends and reminscing about when .12+ was top of the heap and they ruled the roost. As I recall, you say lame has beens were all atwitter when the Nose went in a day. Why did it matter...after all, they'd all been up it before not like it was ground up onsight or even free. Selective ethics to make your old ass feel better is lame...and I'm an old ass saying it.
Grow up old dads.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:21am PT
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Ha, Ha.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:54am PT
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"You gotta define it properly now. This is history in the making."
I think "Sprad" covers the whole grey area between pure sport and pristine trad. You pronounce it differently depending on how much respect you wish to give to the ascent.
For instance, this guys send was wicked hard and he took some really long falls working on it. Thats. spRAD" with the emphasis on the "Rad"
If somebody adds fixed pins, preprotects, hangdogs, maybe had a bit of tension at the crux and then reports it like a Bush administration lacky spinning the event, then its
"SSSPPPrad" with saliva spraying from the lips when the "P" sound is sputted.
Then you bring in the adjectives
Spradutory
Spradilarious
Spradific
Nouns:
Spradabee
Spadasaurus
LycraSprad
not to mention
Spradmilation
Spradcore
and
SpradDad
I'm sure it's endless just like the grey area is endless.
Peace
Karl
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 11, 2006 - 02:12am PT
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jesus mick, why don't you just blow her?
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MarkHG
Trad climber
UK
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:47am PT
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This is a game that's played in the UK in particular, I believe. Virtually all cutting edge headpointed first ascents are graded for an on-sight ascent (so that the average punter that might come along and decide to have a go knows what he's in for?, so they don't find themselves on an E11 instead of the E9 they thought they were on! ;) ).
So with due respect to Dave for a very impressive achievement to say it's the it's the 'hardest trad route in the world' is a not strictly accurate as it has not been climbed at that grade.
Why aren't these routes graded for the style in which they were ascended?
Later if someone does climb them on-sight, pre-placing gear without top rope practice then they can give the route an on-sight grade. Then we can amuse ourselves with a good discussion about wether it's the hardest trad route in the world.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 11, 2006 - 04:25am PT
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The headpointing thing is a bit like when sport climbing hit the scene; no one bothered with a way to distinquish the style/ethic the route went up with. It would have been nice to know someone dogged their way up a route with 5.Ns and now it would be good to know if it were headpointed with 5.NNh or some other system - anything so you can distinquish the style/ethic as 5.n only tells you so much these days...
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rodney trotter
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:26am PT
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Bachar:
"If it ain't ground up and onsight, it ain't trad."
Not often you hear an american coming out with such narrow minded bullsh#t...
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rodney trotter
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:29am PT
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"""What is safer? Splitter crack or bolted "sport" route? Well I can place gear ever f*#king foot if I wanted to in a crack. Bolts are like 5 feet apart or more most the time. So what is sport climbing again?"""
Jesus christ. You just ended the debate with that mind blowingly idiotic statement.
Macleod is probably the best all rounder in the world, trad, winter, sport, boulder.
You just sound like a clown.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 11, 2006 - 08:40am PT
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Hey Rodney, kindly go fvck yourself, there's a good lad.
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tonyw
Trad climber
Edinburgh
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Apr 11, 2006 - 10:42am PT
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So who's going to be the first American climber to come and have a go? Any volunteers?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 10:46am PT
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I'll volunteer, I can climb anything.
Gimme the rope man, I'll have a go.
Then you're up next after me dude, as you watch me flail hopelessly above.
Hahaha ........ you buying my round trip ticket too?
Personally I don't give a schit if it's the hardest route in the world or the easiest.
There are much harder and more important things to accomplish in this life than some stupid rock climb.
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
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Ah, all the euro trash coming out of the woods because the question was raised regarding the term trad applied to a local testpiece. You think anybody here is going to waste their time going over there to claim an American ascent of a route on a boulder? There are way too many routes around here on bigger boulders, established ground-up, to be wasting our time on (maybe not right at this moment because of all the weather). Yes, Werner, it's just climbing.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
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Ah, those brits are just mad cause we kicked their @$$es in two wars, then had to bail em out of two more. HEHE!
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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Original inquiry, "narrow minded" as it "may" be - Was the route rehearsed?
Just curious folks - didn't realize some people would get so worked up about a simple question. The Czechs and East Germans would probably ask the same question themselves. If a route is rehearsed then the term "traditional" probably shouldn't be applied to the ascent.
Peace, jb
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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Headpoint = muscle memory circus trick
JB is right... you Brits are just wanking.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
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the hardest route is T.F.H.F.Y.G Too Fockin Hard For You Gumby
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Paz
Trad climber
Bristol
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Apr 11, 2006 - 01:56pm PT
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Just a few points I think have been lost in translation and to give you guys the numbers. In Britain headpointing is seen as primarily a way to climb without bolts. Another way to bring the rock down to your level, but obviously a much less permanently destructive one. It's not perfect and grit is seeing a resurgence in groundup tactics, which due to the problems of wear from repeated landings isn't perfect either.
The trad grade in Britain is for onsights, theoretically so where these have not been yet achieved. For routes with tricks or exceptional levels of cunning with comparitively easy climbing for the grade, therefore bold `X' rated routes a new system was proposed to grade headpoints more modestly, but as you guys would say, it was a drag.
However for trad climbs with a comparitively medium standard of climbing for the grade the step up between english E grades is around two french sport or american YDS letter grades.
So although we haven't had the balls to put up a `truly bold' E11 yet, even using our cheating headpoint tactics it took a Scot
to beat us all with a monumentally harder one as I'll explain.
Ignoring boulder problems, so as far as I'm aware in America, in the Valley, at Indian Creek and in Colorado (and also in Canada, Sweden, Italy and Australia as well as here in England) the hardest climbs on gear are all 8b+ or 5.14a, according to http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=325.
Other routes as hard have been suggested, but when climbers such as England's John dunne don't repeat their peer's routes their grades only describe the relative difficulty of his own first ascents.
Were these onsight ground up frigged, or climbed cleanly after some other form of practise? Personally I don't mind frigging, I like the idea of a trip up The Nose to try the moves now you've cleaned the placement's and equipped the route properly with some fixed gear. Even this route is thought to be 5.14a.
Rhapsody is 5.14b/c R, and the only reason it isn't 5.14b/c X is that Dave was lucky enough to survive an inverted fall.
If anyone is aware of the ethical difference between this ascent and a traditional onsight we brits are. However the pure physical difficulty of the climbing means this is a leap forward in traditional standards of one, probably even two, letter grades.
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jack splat
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:25pm PT
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Mick Ryan posts these news flashes from the outside world here - and it has the same effect as a troll.
A guy does an unargueably rad route - 14c with big fall potential - and a bunch of you immediatly start bitching about whether it's trad or not.
It's not TRAD, it's not TRAD..it doesn't count!!! He had an invisible rope!!!
Dudes! Could you be more pathetic? It's sad! You had your time in the sun. People praised you, they still do....
Climbing has changed - it will continue to change - try clapping when someone achieves something in climbing - send out good energy and it will come back to you.
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Choppo
Mountain climber
Norwood, Colorado
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:26pm PT
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Thanks Paz for helping set things straight. I've been climbing for a long time and as far as I can tell everything Dave MacLeod supposedly did has been practiced for many decades and his ascent is surely traditional in the real sense of the term. Correct me if I'm wrong, but another long standing tradition in the climbing world has been for egotistical, shortsighted climbers to react with hypocritical trash talk when climbers like Dave push the standards.
Instead of all this crap, we should be praising Dave's ascent for what is, a step forward in action.
I've been to Glasgow twice now and looked at that route in awe. Great job, Dave.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:30pm PT
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Through all the verbiage, at some point it does sound like it was "rehearsed" (which ain't necessarily evil in itself, but still not a true on-sight, i.e. trad ascent). But with all the noise about the route's significance, it does seem odd that no one mentions how many times he top-roped it first, at least not in print. So, how many times did he TR it before the final lead?
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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"Mick Ryan posts these news flashes from the outside world here - and it has the same effect as a troll. "
And you're pointing this out like it's mere coincidence? Do you think Mick had no idea this news flash would stir some controversy? Tell 'em, Mick. Besides, the title of the post is a question, not a statement.
Discussing style and ethics is a tradition in climbing. If there's going to be spraying about accomplishments, it's likely there's gonna be some scrutinizing about the style. Seems fair to me.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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I think you are giving that wanker Mick Ryan too much credit. He has no idea what he is doing. He'll be flooding OUR forum with Brits any minute now... wait, they are already here!!! Hide the HP!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 11, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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Again, the fact that you folks place gear on a highly wired routes as opposed to bolting them from the onset is both commendable and laudable from my perspective and even a great accomplishment. But headpointed route isn't and never will be a "traditional" FA simply because you happen to use gear. It's just another sign of the realities in force when the grades reach a particular level of difficulty, similar to why sport climbing came into being - that that odds of establishing onsight, ground up, no route prep, no dogging FA's essential starts diving very close to zero.
Don't get me wrong, I give it over to you guys for preserving both your trad heritage and rock, but I do think the rating system needs to be amended to be able to reflect the differing styles/ethics now in use. I find the fact that you can't distinquish between a trad, headpoint, and sport FA to be lamentable at best...
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tonyw
Trad climber
Edinburgh
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Apr 11, 2006 - 04:01pm PT
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For a full account and pics, see this link:
http://www.scottishclimbs.com/articlepage.php?articleid=46
Dave has never made any secret of the fact that the route has been rehearsed, and in fact, lots of people have watched him practising it.
So, no takers from the big boys with the bad mouths?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Apr 11, 2006 - 04:03pm PT
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I was in a resturant in Istan and these Brits are talking. F this, F that. Pathetic.
Your whole country has slid down the sewar.
Juanito
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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You stalker Russ.
Hey is my room ready?
Mick
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 11, 2006 - 04:21pm PT
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Just did the sheets... come on over.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2006 - 04:56pm PT
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Sooner than you think.
Yo Tom......Wassup?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:06pm PT
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An example of hard trad climbing : Crofts' on sight of Van Bellodrome (13c) ignoring extraneous bolts. Bornes' onsight solo of the first 7 pitches of Flying Buttress (12a) FFA. Houldings outing on Right Side of El Cap - 7 pitches (13R) no added bolts. New Route on Falls Wall? The list goes on.....
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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A bad example of hard onsight climbing, Mick being AlDude's invisible top rope.
Remember that Al.
Mick
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:23pm PT
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You mean the time you dropped my battery pack rap bolting my toprope - then Gabrielle fired it calling it 5.9. That abortion stands fallow to this day - lesson learned!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:36pm PT
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i think the brits are still twisting over that trip of grammici's in the late 70's when he hiked all the hardest routes in britan. mountain magazine profiled that little outing in an article titled "the quiet amercan".
nowadays, it'd be "the ugly american".
whatever the fine points, this fellow should be very satisfied with his send. proud, no doubt. who cares how it gets labeled, mick?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:39pm PT
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The route is what it is and took major bullocks.
Ironically, the idea of "Trad" didn't much exist before "Sport" appeared, and this ascent is clearly within the category of "Trad" that we, as ever, argue the ethic of.
So far, it's almost unheard of for even a 13c to be FA'ed in the style that somebody like Bachar and Al would accept as ethically pure. That 14 b/c would require different tactics at this point in our evolution is obvious and it's just a matter of game playing how much you'd want to discount the ascent because of that. The guy took a 70 footer climbing unimaginably hard. How much bolder do you expect from the guy?
The Brits are too bold.. They the trad fanatics if you ask me. When I see somebody chalking up for one of those R/X rated face climbs on Middle Cathedral, it's almost alway a Brit.
Good, bad, smart, insane, you decide, but I'm not crying "wimp" on this one.
Congrats
Karl
From Yosemite where we have a long trad ition of dissing outsiders
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:40pm PT
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"I'm thinking of going to find Osama bin Laden on-sight solo and collect that reward money.
But I was also thinking of trying to on-sight swim to Hawaii with none of those weeny back-up boats around....can't decide yet."
Sorry John, If you've seen the ocean (or if someone told you about it) it ain't on-sight.
Get back to work on those high tops will ya?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:42pm PT
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Nah,I think you guys are still pissed because Fawcett and Livesey hiked the second ascent of Astroman, then a few years later Moffat flashed Phoenix and just about every other hard route in the country (same year that Cubby did Requiem I think).
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:54pm PT
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nah, i think you guys are just pissed because america's recently developed fascination with good scotch whisky has driven the prices up for everyone, especially brits.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:57pm PT
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This thread improves by the minute.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:59pm PT
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Second Ascent?
hahahaha! That's a good one!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 11, 2006 - 06:09pm PT
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didn't kauk do the second ascent, going back and leading all the pitches?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 11, 2006 - 06:15pm PT
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Surely, such a pious and pure man as yourself could not condone going back to a route, after having had the opportunity to check out all the holds, protection etc while jugging every third pitch on the "first ascent". Hopefully the new guidebook will give Fawcett and Livesey their long overdue credit.
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Alun
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 06:24pm PT
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It is a shame that this thread has degenerated into pointless point-scoring, when there is a good debate lurking here somewhere.
Karl Baba made a very good point a few posts above when he wrote:
"So far, it's almost unheard of for even a 13c to be FA'ed in the style that somebody like Bachar and Al would accept as ethically pure. That 14 b/c would require different tactics at this point in our evolution is obvious and it's just a matter of game playing how much you'd want to discount the ascent because of that. The guy took a 70 footer climbing unimaginably hard. How much bolder do you expect from the guy?"
I would love to see John Bachar's response, given his experience and reputation, and opinions as laid out earlier. The shame is that he has probably written off this thread due to the amount of pointless crap that's been posted.
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Muffin
Mountain climber
UK
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Apr 11, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Was this a trad ascent? Not according to some of you, and that's fair enough. Is this a trad route though? Yes - there's a bolt-free crack waiting for anyone to improve the style as they see fit.
Climbing often seems to need a hero to show the rest of us what can be done. When that mental barrier of the impossible is breached then people start to think about attempting things they may never have even mildly mused upon before. Didn't the sport climbing 'revolution' show people just how hard they really could climb?
What Macleod has done is show us that E11 can be led, placing gear as you climb. So he didn't do it ground up? Show him who's the man. So you didn't manage it onsight? Watch it get downgraded and gang-soloed as the hotshots of the future headpoint the latest 9c+ sickfest.
Trad is alive and well and it's still evolving. Dave has set the bar a little higher.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:06pm PT
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I'm not making a value judgement here - I was just asking a question about whether or not the "Hardest Traditional Route in the World" was rehearsed. Don't matter to me what the guy did, I just think sometimes the term "trad" gets a little misunderstood - that's all!
Peace, jb
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:12pm PT
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I think what Bachar is driving at here is not to do with how well the guy climbed, as far as climbing goes, but whether we will, over time, blur the lines which define trad climbing.
Someone earlier on this thread referred to the "Old Dads" who saw .12+ as the limit. Some of how this limit occurred was due to the fact that certain tactics were not considered fair.
Personally I say "Props" to the guy for climbing waaay hard and proud. But, Trad is Trad.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:15pm PT
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Sounds like he climbed the route using trad gear, but not really trad style.
The climbing media has sort of tweaked the definition of trad to refer solely to the gear one uses. More marketing than anything else.
Style seems largely ignored today, maybe because it's complicated and subjective.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
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Nitpicking can get carried too far.
For instance, Bachar had to hang on hooks to bolt "Bachar Yerian" on lead. So that means he used aid right? It wasn't completely clean. But then the onsight is finished and he can't go back and onsight FA the route right? That means virtually ALL hard routes that need bolts for pro can NEVER be trad by the purest definition.
But nobody thinks "Bachar Yerian" is a sport climb.
But what I see Bachar posting is just "Disclose the tatics" and folks can make their own judgements.
There is obviously NO concensus on what the details of trad ethics are. Don't try and claim there is. Folk have alway argued about the ethics for rap bolting, hook bolting, and even cams, topos, and chalk.
It is what it is. Few of us get laid or paid for it, and those who do are often best compensated for their self promotion skills rather than pure style.
If you want to make pure style your game. Have at it. Just don't be a hypocrite.
Or do, that's humanity for you
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:37pm PT
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Hahahaha hahahaha hahaha Oh mannn this thread is beautiful.
WTF am I laughing about? Nobody gives a schit anyways...
hahahahahahahahaha ...........
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 08:00pm PT
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The "Bachar-Yerian" is 5.11a, A1 and is a trad route - ground-up and on-sight. Just clipping the bolts is a form of aid even if you never weight them. peace, jb
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sutty
Trad climber
yorkshire
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Apr 11, 2006 - 09:23pm PT
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Bachar,
Karl Baba wrote;
>For instance, Bachar had to hang on hooks to bolt "Bachar Yerian" on lead. So that means he used aid right? It wasn't completely clean. But then the onsight is finished and he can't go back and onsight FA the route right? That means virtually ALL hard routes that need bolts for pro can NEVER be trad by the purest definition.
Well that is not trad as we see it, it is sport climbing.
Now Dave may have been on the route and tried it several times, with some long falls but it was ground up with no resting on gear.
Practice has gone on from the earliest days, and even now I have not heard of the Nose having an onsight free ascent so what are all you lads doing messing about on other routes?
We are all here for the fun, and pain of it, and there has always been the odd peg to use till someone does a route better. Dave just did that.
All it needs now is for someone to do it onsight in one push to give it a true grade. Any takers?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 11, 2006 - 09:26pm PT
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Sutty.. you told me you were going to bed ya stalker....
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kevin Fosburg
Sport climber
park city,ut
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Apr 11, 2006 - 09:33pm PT
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I'm with BVB and have never liked the term "trad" climbing. It did not exist before sport climbing. Why not just go climbing and let others do as they please? Ethics are for easy climbs.
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thesiger
Trad climber
A desert kingdom
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Apr 11, 2006 - 10:53pm PT
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"Ah, those brits are just mad cause we kicked their @$$es in two wars, then had to bail em out of two more. "
Dude, read a history book. In 1812 'we' - I write as both Brit and Canadian - invaded, over ran the whole North East, burnt down the White House .. then graciously handed your country back whilst we got back to the more serious business of sorting out Napoleon.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 11, 2006 - 11:13pm PT
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enough of the lightweight climbing crap. you wanna talk hardcore? let's start with this guy:
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Apr 11, 2006 - 11:45pm PT
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Hey, ain't that the drunk who FDR had to bail out before he was booted out of office by the limeys?
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thesiger
Trad climber
A desert kingdom
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Apr 12, 2006 - 12:37am PT
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Indeed. Even drunker when he backed the original jewish occupation of Palestine. Sadly, whilst we euros figured out that was a mistake 30 years, you guys just keep sending them the aid and the guns. Apocalypse tomorrow, anyone ...?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 12, 2006 - 12:47am PT
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Author:
thesiger
Trad climber
From: A desert kingdom
"Ah, those brits are just mad cause we kicked their @$$es in two wars, then had to bail em out of two more. "
Dude, read a history book. In 1812 'we' - I write as both Brit and Canadian - invaded, over ran the whole North East, burnt down the White House .. then graciously handed your country back whilst we got back to the more serious business of sorting out Napoleon. ""
So, you're saying,kind-a-sorta one out of three, not bad?
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thesiger
Trad climber
A desert kingdom
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Apr 12, 2006 - 01:34am PT
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> So, you're saying,kind-a-sorta one out of three, not bad?
No. You won the first one in 1776-1783 (our king was mad - a small handicap). Then we beat you in the second round, 1812-1814. Then we gave you your country back. Actually Brits are world-class at handing countries back. We have handed back more countries than you people have states ...
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 12, 2006 - 01:51am PT
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After a ROYAL ass whoopin @ New Orleans courtesy of " Ol Hickory "!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 12, 2006 - 01:56am PT
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Not to be too picky, Al, but remember that Jackson won the Battle of New Orleans after the War of 1812 was officially over. News didn't travel so fast in those days.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 12, 2006 - 01:58am PT
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ok, whoever just dissed my man churchill ain't read jack about the early years of WWII, when britan was fukking going it alone, and sure as SH#T ain't read churchill's three-volume history of western civilization. the man was a giant, and probably the most influential figure of the 20th century, right after einstein and ghandi.
you cretins. get a rat up ya.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:04am PT
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True Bruce - just a liitle love peck to remember us by.
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thesiger
Trad climber
A desert kingdom
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:13am PT
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You don't seem to fight so hard for New Orleans these days, eh ..
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:37am PT
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Winnie was an alcoholic war monger who wanted to attack Germany through "the soft underbelly" of the Balkans. If it had been up to him, there never would have been a Normandy Landing and the Red Army would have driven their T-34s all the way to Paris. What about when he sat down with Uncle Joe Stalin and carved up Poland and, in the process, sold out the London Committee of the Polish government in exile? I thought that's why Britain declared war on Germany in 1939: to save Poland. Winnie made a speech about the Iron Curtain but never mentioned what a big part he played in raising it up. Churchill was an imperialist dinosaur who wanted to hang on to India and Singapore until FDR told him to shut his big mouth and get used to being Number 2.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:53am PT
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wtf bruce?? who you been readin'....alfred e. nueman???
just in case you missed it, FDR was pretty much one step away from the grave at yalta and didn't tell anyone, much less churchill, to "get used to being #2." not his style, even when he was in the game.
churchill cut the best deals he could at yalta. russia basically won the war for us. if hitler hadn't been stupid enought to invade russia, he could have consolidated southern europe and normandy would never have happened.
what's your point?
btw...if the "war monger" got his way, maybe 20 million lives could have been saved. yeah, i guess you're right, he was a drug-addled f*#k-up. good thing you were there to bail western civilization out.....
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Sticky
climber
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Apr 12, 2006 - 04:09am PT
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Not to put too fine a point on it ladies, but attempting to justify your attitude towards someone's first ascent based on who won which battle in 1812 and whether one country whipped another in World War (take your pick) ain't the best way to justify an argument. Doesn't matter what country someone comes from - no reason to judge them, and certainly no reason to judge their climbing efforts.
I'll climb down from my soapbox now.
Sticky
ps As for Churchill - he's very dead, and never said a bad word about you. Let him be.
pps cool send. chapeau!
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Sticky
climber
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Apr 12, 2006 - 04:09am PT
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Not to put too fine a point on it ladies, but attempting to justify your attitude towards someone's first ascent based on who won which battle in 1812 and whether one country whipped another in World War (take your pick) ain't the best way to justify an argument. Doesn't matter what country someone comes from - no reason to judge them, and certainly no reason to judge their climbing efforts.
I'll climb down from my soapbox now.
Sticky
ps As for Churchill - he's very dead, and never said a bad word about you. Let him be.
pps cool send. chapeau!
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Grug
Trad climber
Golden, Colorado
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Apr 12, 2006 - 10:27am PT
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So...it's the Yanks vs the Brits...too funny!
I must say, although I'm a Yank, I've always really appreciated the Brit sense of humor.
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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:23pm PT
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Hello everyone.
I am slightly disappointed with the reaction to Dave's superhuman effort, having done that hardest piece of climbing ever to have been done on gear.
Dave Macleod is to me, as he is to you, a foreigner. I congratulate him on his effort, so should you.
Why get political? Why make yourselves look like you are up your own backsides? Why not congratulate?
Also. You say that the best climbing is in the States. Why does you best climber live in Switzerland?
8A
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:25pm PT
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8a (hvs max) writes: Why does you best climber live in Switzerland?
I don't. Someone has lied to you.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:26pm PT
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Still doesn't say how many times Dave TRed the line over those 2 years.
"Winnie the Pooh"
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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
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Probably hundreds. Why would he keep count?
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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:32pm PT
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In reply to Russ Walling:
I don't climb trad.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:34pm PT
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I say congratulations to Dave as well! I wouldn't call the ascent traditional but I also think headpointing is cool as well - got no problems with it.
Grit ethics aren't trad in a strict sense but I still think they're way cool and I have utmost respect for them. It's an artform that I appreciate as well as participate in myself. I still wouldn't "label" it as "trad" however.
Can't wait to go back to England and try some more Grit routes! peace, jb
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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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In reply to Bachar:
Fair enough, personally I would call it trad, although strictly speaking it is defined as a trad-headpoint.
If the fall is gnarly enough to snap RP wire then I think it deserves more appreciation and less bitching (you aside as a non bitcher).
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 12, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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8A - "Trad headpoint". I agree with that as well. Either way the route looks sick! Just think, someday our kids will be on-sighting this stuff!
Hope to climb with you guys in the UK sometime soon and drink some more of the best beer in the world! cheers, jb
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
Tahoe
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Apr 12, 2006 - 03:13pm PT
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A few thoughts for this thread:
1) Dudes (and dudettes): chill. It's just climbing.
2) Congrats! A proud send.
3) There are different levels of style. The onsite, ground-up is definitely the purest and most respectable. But working a route that's above your level, improving, and then finally sending is also super respectable. Hang dogging and bolting, etc., is less respectable (albeit understandable.) It's okay, no matter what style you choose, provided that you don't permenantly damage the rock AND that you're honest about it.
4) What relevance does old wars between US and Britain have to do with anything? Aren't we allies, now, anyway? So who gives a fvck!?!
(Although I can certainly see how the Brits would be a bit touchy on the subject. "Gave back our country," indeed! That's because they realized they wouldn't be able to govern it - not that we've done an awesome job.) But that still has nothing to do with climbing!!!
5) Sport climbing is neither. :-)
6) Now, everyone, STFU and go climbing!
AK
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8A
Sport climber
England
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Apr 12, 2006 - 03:22pm PT
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Tahoe climber:
Go climbing? I have just got back. You're forgetting its a quarter past eight here in England!
Bachar:
No need to go too over the top ;-)
But seriously, good the bitching has finally stopped. You guys arn't as bad as the UKC lot make out.
I think they have disowned Mick Ryan.
8A
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 12, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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Young,Smythe,Brown ect.... spinning in ther graves!!!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 12, 2006 - 05:26pm PT
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ok bachar, you've gone way, way too far now.
EVERYBODY know the best beer in the world is brewed in belgium and right here in the USA.
six packs at 60 paces, mate.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
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Rhapsody E11 7a
Rhapsody E11 7a takes the true finish to Requiem on Dumbarton Rock's main face. The Requiem crack fades out into a blind seam halfway up the wall and the original route follows a flake on the right to the top. It was always an obvious project to climb the seam all the way to the top. After his ascent of Requiem in 1983, Dave Cuthbertson inspected the line, but left it on account of the obviously very hard climbing and "protection problem". The next attention it saw was from me in 2002 after having done Achemine (E9) just to the left. I could only do about half the moves and felt it was very futuristic but possible for someone - there are holds all the way, just very small and unhelpful ones. In early 2004 I managed all but two of the moves. Then in early 2005, after a lot of day on the shunt I managed to climb each of the individual moves. It took the spring and summer of 2005 to build up to linking the line on a top rope, working and training on it almost exclusively (and hardly getting any other climbing done!).
In September I had my first lead attempt - the headwall above the crack feels about F8c in itself and there is no more protection, so a fall from the final moves ends almost back at the belay ledge 60 feet below, with a violent swing and slam into the rock. After falling fairly low in the crux section a couple of times, I made it to the last move, and despite touching the finishing hold, fell, snapping the RP3 runner and falling 70 feet, passing the belay ledge on the way. The lead attempts continued into October, until my worst fear was realised and the rope wrapped itself around my leg as I fell, flipping me upside down, crushing and burning my leg and slamming my back off the wall. I just managed to pull my head out the way, If I hadn't I would be dead. I had already lost the momentum, but then it was completely gone after I snapped off the crucial crux undercut and had to start working a new crux sequence from scratch.
That was it for the season, so I regained my strength and confidence from doing two Font 8b's over winter and training specifically for more attempts in March. Things came together quickly and with Claire belaying me on the first time on the route, I linked it first try on the top rope. The following week I was back on the lead, feeling confident through the crux in perfect conditions and a big crowd below. I was convinced I would make it, but as I adjusted my feet and looked up at the finishing jug, I felt all my strength disappear, elbows come out and confidence evaporate. I slapped the hold but the next instant was flying again with a massive smash off the wall, spraining my ankles, twisting a knee and cutting and bruising my feet.
After several days enforced rest, everything was set for Sunday - good forecast and the positive vibe of Claire holding the rope again. But on arriving at the crag, a two hour blizzard kicked off, ending all hope of getting on the route. But the warm sun came back out and we inspected the line, trying to dry the finishing holds with t-shirts and tissues. At the last minute it was dry and I called Claire. Back on the horrible shake out I felt awful - nervous, negative, I just didn-t want to be there. So I tried to think positive and thought "just climb it then and you won't have to come back here again, either way it will be over in a minute". I shook and wobbled through every move and arrived back staring at the finishing hold. To grab it and pull over after all those times falling is an indescribable feeling. I thought I was going to melt!
After putting everything else aside for two year to climb Rhapsody I'm now looking forward to climbing other places again. A lot of people helped me do this route - thanks! Top effort to Hotaches Diff and Dave Brown (and the team) for filming the whole process; including driving over for every single attempt and spending way too much time shivering at the top of Dumbarton rock waiting for my next go. But with more than 500 feet of airtime on video, I reckon it was worth it eh?
Dave MacLeod (10-04-2006)
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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"I think they have disowned Mick Ryan.
8A"
Odd, they never owned me in the first place.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 12, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
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Don't listen to that 8a clown. He's never even placed a nut!!!!!!!!!!!
BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!
( I hear he can pull like fuk on sport though )
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 12, 2006 - 09:15pm PT
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a wise man once said, after listening to a number of young (and not so young) turks debate a bunch of pointless ethical ephermera vis-a-vis sytle and such, asked this question:
"vy can't ve chust climb??"
"enough of this hiking, when are we going to get on to the climbing??"
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duncan
climber
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Apr 13, 2006 - 07:25am PT
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A little history (for Americans)…
In the beginning, rock-climbing was a development of Alpinism so naturally the accepted style of climbing was ground-up. In the UK, cliffs are small, so the occasional crafty top-rope or abseil inspection is quite easy to rig up and was used on the quiet from quite early on. The fractured nature of the rock meant that most routes had some natural protection and so an anti-piton and then anti-bolt ethic arose to maintain the challenge. By the 1970s the supply of new routes was perceived as drying up and more obscure crags were developed. Frequently these had to be scraped out of the hillside (eg Goat Crag in Borrowdale). In case north American readers are not aware, it rains quite often in the UK and cliff vegetation is frequently prolific, so this required heroic gardening with crowbars and yard brushes. Not something that can be done ground-up. Additionally, the growth of sea-cliff climbing inverted usual practice: you start at the top and frequently abseil down your route to start. The effect of this was that abseil cleaning and inspection became widespread, which lead fairly rapidly to checking holds and the sneaky practicing of sections on the ab. rope. By the early 80s this kind of ‘cheating’ was widespread but frequently unacknowledged, a bit like the practice of ‘yo-yo’ ground-up ascents that were also popular at the time.
Sport climbing came along and changed the rules, ‘Cheating’ was out in the open and became codified. A certain amount practicing and pre-inspection was usual in the local traditional form, so the difference between “trad” climbing and sport climbing was perceived as being bolts. Trad = no bolts; sport = bolts. Battles raged between the bolters and non-bolters in the mid-80s but eventually everyone agreed to get along (mostly).
Head-pointing must be trad. as it doesn’t involve bolts.
A little history (for Brits)…
In the beginning, rock-climbing was a development of Alpinism so naturally the accepted style of climbing was ground-up. In the USA, cliffs are big, so top-rope or abseil inspection is usually damn hard to arrange and people generally didn’t bother. The un-fractured nature of the granite meant that many routes had no natural protection and so the use of bolts was permitted, if placed ground-up to maintain the challenge. In case our UK readers are not aware, those American cliffs are clean, blank and smooth and climbing without bolts is inconceivable. No-one has climbed El Cap without bolts (now there’s a challenge for some ethical Brit…) and no-one thought The Nose was anything less than an awesome achievement despite Warren Harding drilling over a 100 holes on the first ascent. By the 1970s ground-up climbing reached it’s zenith with fearsome routes climbed replete with epic tales of drilling from tiny stances. As standards rose, the routes got steeper and drilling ground-up got harder and harder. Ethics got stretched to permit drilling from hooks or other forms of aid, so long as it was ground-up. By the early 80s this kind of ‘cheating’ was widespread.
Sport climbing came along and changed the rules, ‘Cheating’ was out in the open and became codified. A certain amount of bolting was usual in the local traditional form, so the difference between “trad” climbing and sport climbing was perceived as being one of style. Trad = ground-up; sport = top-down preparation. Battles raged between the rap-bolters and ground-uppers in the mid-80s but eventually everyone agreed to get along (mostly).
Head-pointing can’t be trad. as it involves prior practice.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 13, 2006 - 10:11am PT
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I could nit pick a few little points, but overall that is a really good explanation of the little "cultural divide" that we've been having on this forum. Nice one Duncan.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 13, 2006 - 11:34am PT
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Duncan,
overall I think this explains the divide, good job. Like many old timers I dislike the word trad, mainly because it does not necessarily describe the type of climbing that I grew up on (runout Granite Slab climbing and using bolts for protection). I remember climbing at a backwater place in the US about 15 years ago where some of the routes had been Top Roped into submission prior to leading them. One of the routes in particular had poor pro. I could not help but think that if the FA had been ground up, that there may have been a bolt or two placed, even if the FAist would have been hanging off a hook or something else. As I was used to approaching climbs ground up, I felt like the guy had been cheating. I know that one of the arguments used in the great sport climbing debate of the 80's here was that gound up created a level playing field. That was what was missing to me at this place where scary routes were created by TRing first. The guidebook failed to mention the style of the FA. I think that is where some of the folks were coming from here.
Hats off to Dave though. By not placing bolts he is upping the ante and someday, perhaps it will be upped again...
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 13, 2006 - 11:43am PT
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duncan - "Trad = no bolts; sport = bolts"
What about Tuolumne Meadows? Bob Kamps "trad" routes are still feared today. Many were bolted on stance with no falls and have been upgraded several letter grades from their original rating. They're still trad despite the perceived definition of "trad". Kamps would agree if he were still with us. Ask Higgins.
And I think you're right..."Head-pointing can’t be trad. as it involves prior practice" - so I'll have to retract on the "trad - headpoint" thing I stated earlier. Headpointing can't be trad in a strict sense - it's still fun however.
cheers, jb
oh yeah, sorry guys, but the UK still has the best beer!
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Apr 13, 2006 - 03:11pm PT
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You missed it, John. "Trad = ground-up" applies to us Yanks. Tuolumne Meadows is in the US--where bolts are an accepted part of trad equation. Kamps was a traditionalist long before the term was defined, when we were both in the cradle.
But, I gotta agree with you... Nothing beats a proper ale, best served somewhere in GB. However, outside of a quality British pub, I'll take a Belgian Lambic any day. There's attention to detail in every bottle!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 13, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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"Hardest Traditional Route in the World climbed?"
No, not yet (I think it's still some years away).
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Apr 13, 2006 - 04:18pm PT
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Bachar, your off your bean lad. Best beer is brewed in the Pacific Northwest United States of Uncle Sam, eh.
Portland, OR is probably THE mecca of beer....beervana as it were. Don;t get me wrong, I love ale from the UK as well, but all in all, the PNW has it over Germany, Belgium, UK, etc and I'd wager they out-do many of those places in their own signature styles.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2006 - 09:49pm PT
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There's always some superman who can show up and upset the apple cart, particularly if a woman dumps him, but...
There are a few reasons why 5.11 used to be the hardest grade in the world. It wasn't just about the shoes and pins (shoes are THAT important on overhanging limestone)
First (in the US) guys like Bachar and Kauk actually TRAINED instead of just drinking and jumping back into their aiders.
But the second reason concerned tactics. Studs like Kamps could stand on nothing and tap in a bolt every 40 feet on a thin 5.11 climb but there ain't nobody who can do it on overhanging 5.14.
So folks want the higher grades, the equation of things change, the nature of the danger and stresses change but folks still create and gravitate toward the level of adventure they want to enjoy/suffer.
The same "ethics" that might allow someone to fly a plane across the ocean with using oxygen, heating, automation and whatnot will never apply to flying to the moon.
Peace
Karl
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 13, 2006 - 10:06pm PT
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"Trad = ground-up" - rmuir. Exactly. For Yankies. But probably elsewhere like Elbsandtsein too.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2006 - 12:14am PT
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"Trad = no bolts" - bmoon. Exactly. For Limeys. But probably elsewhere like the USA too, if they were completely honest with themselves.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 14, 2006 - 12:37am PT
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Do "Chingadera", Tahquitz. Tell me that ain't trad. 5.10c... - Kamps.
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Loomis
climber
Praha, Ceska Republika
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:41am PT
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in the Elbe river gorge, Czech and German sides, they are rap placing bolts with power drills and even using chalk now!
People used to get carried off by the meat wagon from decking out on the classic routes, now they get carted away from ethic battles in the pubs.
Fortunately there are laws protecting the classics from retro bolting. It is still illegal to use chalk, nuts and cams in the rock. The rap bolting and chalk use is generally frowned upon by the climbing community.
And by the way Elcapinyoazz: You possibly could be the the one who is off your bean. Czech republic has the best beers in the world, most Germans will even attest to that. So many Germans go to Czech on the weekends and holidays to 1. Drink Czech beer. 2. Save money. 3. See prettier women. (please don’t take this as sexism or racism) :-)
And I’m speaking about lager beer.
The first amber beer in the world was created in Ceska Republika in the city of Plzen and the original Budweiser is from Ceske Budejovice. In Czech they call our Bud “limonada” Ha! :-)
There sure isn’t a town called Budweiser in America.
Also, almost every little village in Czech and Slovakia has a local beer/lager that SMOKES the best micro brews here in the States. Czech republic is even in the Guinness book of world records for the highest consumption of beer in the world, it ain’t just Czech’s drink’n it. Na sracky ty vole!!!
Enjoy the photo’s:
It comes to USA this way thanks to the idiots at anhauser busch
The first amber colored beer in the world, straight out of CZ ty vole! :-)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 14, 2006 - 02:38am PT
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I think I need one of them "Super Strong" Budweisers to test drive. All we gots out here is High Gravity Camo XXXXX (yep, 5 x's)
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 14, 2006 - 02:50am PT
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Na Zdravi !
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 14, 2006 - 03:44am PT
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Old, Stiff, US Trad = Ground Up, No Dogging, No TR Rehersal, Pull the rope after falls, Onsight if possible...
Old, Erickson, US Trad = Ground Up, No Dogging, No TR Rehersal, No Falls, Onsight or Walk Away...
Old, Relaxed, US Trad = Ground Up, No Dogging, No TR Rehersal, Onsight if possible...
New, US Trad = Ground Up, No TR Rehersal, Onsight if possible...
I have always considered the seminal (and largely unacknowledged and unspoken) difference between trad and sport wasn't the method of protection, but the dogging. The real change between what has come to be known as "trad" and today's climbing is the widespread acceptance and adoption of this practice at all levels of difficulty - in both sport and trad. It was one thing at the advent of sport climbing to accept it was necessary on extreme routes, but quite another shortly thereafter seeing folks dogging up everything.
Dogging has clearly made its way from sport and gyms to now become firmly embedded in today's normative notion of "trad" (which is not a practice entirely without peril). Also, "Trad" never implied no fixed protection, but rather always favored gear and considered any fixed pins or bolts as a last resort.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2006 - 04:05am PT
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Kinda like Bill Clinton massaging the definition of sex so that he wasn't "really" cheating...
What kind of "Be Lay" did you get Bill? Was there protection fixed? Have you gone back to "Free Soloing" yet?
It's tempting to define "trad" to include our style and exclude the style of others.
What are the hardest vices to give up when climbing at your very max limit if you're a hardman?
Dogging? Having reasonable pro? Cleaning the route? Preprotecting?
At what grade does giving up these sort of "cheats" become newsworthy?
Where is the line between style, ethics and the very category a climb is considered in. This new testspeice is not a sport climb unless you're a world class sandbagger. If it's not trad, then what?
Peace
Karl
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:53pm PT
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Sounds like a well-rehearsed solo with the issue, to a certain undefined extent, still in doubt: If the RP wire breaks, will I really die, or just be seriously injured?
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GK
Trad climber
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Apr 25, 2006 - 05:48am PT
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Karl Baba wrote:
"Where is the line between style, ethics and the very category a climb is considered in. This new testspeice is not a sport climb unless you're a world class sandbagger. If it's not trad, then what?"
In New Zealand we often describe lines as "natural" or "naturally protected". These terms are generally inter-changeable with "traditional". Maybe for the hair splitters, describing this line as a naturally protected climb would be more suitable.
Karl also previously mentioned something to the effect that high grade lines of this type are pushing the boundries of climbing and so the ethics are pushed too. I couldn't agree more. I think we need climbing and ethics at the top end pushed as often as possible.
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Blight
Social climber
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Apr 25, 2006 - 11:58am PT
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What an absolutely buttock-clenchingly embarrassing thread this must be for americans. To see the rest of the world cheer and support this achievement then to see their own leading lights descend yet again into petty sniping, nationalism and outright lying just because the climber's not american and the climb's not in america.
Honestly, what an embarrassment you are to your country.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 25, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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Sorry Blight,
Not to difuse an opportunity to bicker, which we all no doubt apparently enjoy immensely, but It seems this thread has shown plenty of regard from both sides of the pond.
I particularly enjoyed the detour/tension reliever brought about by the historians and beer drinkers.
After carefully reading all posts, it looks to me that headpointing sits squarely between "trad(ground up, minimal bolting)" and "sport"(top down lots of bolting)", with "headpointing" (top down, very minimal bolting if any at all) holding its own unique and particular aspect of tremendous adventure.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 25, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
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Definitely it's own category
Maybe if you called them 'Reruns'
they'd get more attention over here.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 25, 2006 - 02:14pm PT
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Nothing wrong with head pointing, as long as you admitt it.
I am not sure how you would rate a 5 headpointer before leading situation.
The onsight ground up rating would have to be harder than the headpointed one.
I still think this whole trad was begun with a jab, and jabs were returned.
Get that chippy of yer shoulder, wanky brits.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 25, 2006 - 02:32pm PT
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Although I say my ameliorative comments do apply, thanks for returning us to our regularly scheduled program dirtineye, as your point is as well likely true...
Let the games resume!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 25, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
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Hat's off to the Brit's
for something I can't do!
What's the hardest trad
by 'merican rules?
pizza?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 25, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
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Popcorn...
No wait, is this a trick?
We're supposed to be bickering about climbing and preserving nationalist tension...
bwahaha and yahoooo!
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tomchaps
climber
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May 15, 2006 - 05:08pm PT
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"If it ain't ground-up, on-sight - it ain't trad. Peace, jb"
Wow, I had no idea JB Tribout posted on here, and that he had such strict ethics! I'd have thought that he was more laid-back about it, given all his chipping, but...
This discussion reminds me of the guy who taught me to climb, who thought an ascent wasn't "trad" if the climber used Friends.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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May 15, 2006 - 07:10pm PT
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"yo-yo" to climb up, fall off, remove gear and start over, right? So by definition of the west coast "hardmen" any route that was put up in "yo-yo" style isn't trad? I mean, after all, you would have tried some of the moves prior and thus practiced them, no?
Nice send by Dave. 14c taking 50 footers on marginal/small gear is proud and as far as I'm concerend it's trad.
Oh, and Bachar-Yerian is also A0 for anyone that does it. After all, there is a hanging belay (that is unless you do it w/o hanging at the belay). And for that matter were there no falls taken on the FFA of Bachar-Yerian? Because if there were then moves were done more than once and thus rehersed and not trad (though as far as I'm concerned the Bachar-Yerian is very trad).
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 15, 2006 - 07:19pm PT
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Yo-yo-ing is falling, hanging, getting back up by any means but not lowering and restarting, climbign falling hagniong geting back up by any means but not lowering and restsr
omend (supposed to say stoned there)
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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May 15, 2006 - 07:23pm PT
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so "yo-yo-ing" == hangdogging. interesting.
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