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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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If you think industry is self regulated, then you obviously don't work in heavy industry.
Thats not what he was saying. He was saying that because they don't control themselves, then someone has to. And even if the feds are watching them, someone has to watch the feds and make sure that they do their jobs. Otherwise greed ends up ruling the day. And there are way more stories of companies greed ruining things, then there are of decent companies managing resources wisely.
you want environmentalists to back off?
Maybe when you can prove to them that mining industries will play nice and treat the environment and their employees with respect. And maybe when they pay for all of the damage that they have done. How many mine sites still need to be cleaned up because they are environmental disasters.
And none of this means that we don't want the products that come from mining. We just want it done wisely. With an eye on the future and not just temporary profits.
I am willing to pay more for things that are done wisely, such as using less of things like pesticides. Or paying more for solar generated power instead of coal or oil fired generators. And I do understand that we haven't gotten to the point where we can rely only on solar. I just want that when we do using things like coal or oil, we do our best to mitigate the problems that they create.
You imply that we do not understand your point of view.. How about you understanding our point of view?
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
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I'm curious how someone would think that a thread regarding dam removal in this country, and its attendant challenges, isn't already political?
For the record Dave, my objection to wind energy has little to do with the killing of birds or environmental concerns but has everything to do with the insanely stoopid subsidy complex that accompanies it. Wind energy is a joke and is nothing more than a .gov boondoggle.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
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I do understand the point of view, because I live downstream of my own operation. You think I want my own drinking water polluted? The air in the mountains I regularly climb? You think any miner, driller, logger wants to piss in his own pot?
Most of the pollution that people see came from pre-1975 (pre-NEPA) mines, many of which were shutdown decades ago (Gold King?). Standards and regulations are much different today. And yet its not enough for the greens...
For the record, I agree with the subsidy comment, Escopeta...
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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
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Its political.. I believe the sentiment has more to do with just wanting a chance to celebrate.
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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:46pm PT
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Dave, I don't doubt that you understand the need to not pollute your own water, but I have run into people who still don't get it. And recently at that. And I have seen greed overcome people's better sense. Wouldn't you admit that some mine owners will cut corners if they think no one is looking? Or if they think that they can bully their way out of the problem.
I do understand that likely some rules and regulations are out of balance. What in human society is in balance? Is every miner or mine owner a fully enlightened being? Of course not. And neither are environmentalists. Its not black and white on either side of the equation. And that is I believe the best way to approach talking about these issues. When people are willing to recognize both sides of the issue, then solutions are more likely to come about.
If all rules and regulations were perfectly balanced, do you believe that there are no mine owners who still would not try and cut corners. Or mine developers?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
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Of course not... Its human nature to cut corners... Like the EPA did at Gold King....
That's why regulations have evolved to where they are. But when the environmental movement goes to the point of fighting projects, preempting them, and derailing them even before a permit application has been filed or proposal put up to learn how the regs will be applied to the project design... The movement has gone too far.
When even EPA admits a regulation is more about the numbers than about saving a fish or preventing illness... The movement has gone too far.
Just my opinion...
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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
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you speak of environmentalist as though they are one cohesive group. They aren't. Just as there are wise and decent mine owners and or corrupt ones, there are wise and decent environmentalists and fools.
One reason environmentalists still fight these things is because of the corners that have been cut and are still being cut. Including by the government.
One Major building project in Wawona was recently stopped in part because the church group that was behind it did not do the studies that they claimed that they did, and the government did not check to see that they did do the studies. They just took their word because my goodness. A church group wouldn't lie.
And the reason to fight a project early in the development stage is because its can be almost impossible to stop some projects once they get enough momentum and enough money behind them. Especially projects that are unwise. So its just part of the process now.
So.. Again.. Its just not a black and white situation.
Is that too bad? Yep.. Its too bad that its needed because greed and corruption still rule the day.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 06:14pm PT
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It's all about balance Dave. As you know. Too few regulations or too many regs, both get's you issues. As far as dam removal, it too, is all about balance. Lots of things to consider. Age and condition of dam, what would removal do? What does it generate and is that easily replaced? Some old dams don't generate much power, cost a lot to keep maintained, are deteriating and all but sh#t on the fish runs while doing little positive for us. Some provide so much power, that to get rid of them would cause you to have to find replacement power at an insanely hugely higher cost. Every power source has issues, some are big, like coal, some not so much, but it's all about choices, trade offs and costs.
Nobody gets it all, but having abundant inexpensive power is a cornerstone of a strong country. We have these discourses here, anyone remember the spirited Fracking discourse for instance? http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1472101&tn=0&mr=0
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