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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
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They were built without fish passage in the teens and twenties blocking off 70 miles of pristine habitat in Olympic National Park.
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apogee
climber
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Sep 16, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
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It will be very interesting to see the effects of dam removal on the overall river ecosystem. This will certainly create a precedent by which future removals will be considered.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 16, 2011 - 06:04pm PT
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Interesting indeed.
There's a fun little crag right at the dam. You actually have to walk across the dam to get to it.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 16, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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It's about effing time. I thought they would never get it done. The Elwah had one of the greatest runs of Salmon and Steelhead in the state. Very large fish used to run there. It will be interesting to see how well the recovery will go.
How's it going, Kevin?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 16, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
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I camped below that thing back in the 70's and didn't sleep well. Regardless of its
environmental import that thing looked a disaster waiting to happen back then.
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lars johansen
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Sep 16, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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Read "West Of Here" by Jonathan Evison, about the history of the area and the construction of the Elwah River Dam.
lars
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
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making good progress:
Lower dam
upper dam
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apogee
climber
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Sep 30, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
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Great pics! Keep 'em comin', and thanks for the update!
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Sep 30, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
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the immediate (few years or more) outcomes of removing a major dam are a bit grim for the down river ecosystem. The biggest short-term issue is that these systems have stored up a huge amount of sediment.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 30, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
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Did it create power? Why take it out? Why not build a fish ladder?
Just asking.. I don't know anything about this particular dam, but I do know that we need clean power.
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apogee
climber
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Sep 30, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
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I betcha the OP has better local beta on why the dam is being removed, but the story I heard was that it's practical functions (including power) were no longer efficient or effective, and that it's position on the river has been affecting the ecosystem dramatically for years (including a salmon run).
There are currently around 75,000 dams in the US, about 50,000 of which were built during the heyday of the marriage of the US Army Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Reclamation. A great number were classic pork barrel projects that had very limited practical use. Though it's taken a long time to get past the politics, some of them are starting to be removed now.
What will be particularly interesting about this removal (and there are dozens and dozens of people studying it right now) will the effect that it's removal has on the ecosystem. It's sure to become a precedent by which future removals are considered.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Sep 30, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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apogee is correct. Lots of dams are between 50 and 100 years old and were built at a time when there were no considerations of stream ecosystem issues.
It requires a thoughtful balance. Hydro can be an excellent source of electricity.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 30, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
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The local authorities say they have a plan to deal with the sediment. I'm not sure what that plan is. Wait and see I guess. Kevin, do you know what the plan is? I heard it might be a few years before fish start running again.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Sep 30, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
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Sweet, boondoggles like this are job booms on both ends.
Lots of jobs to put it up, lots of jobs to take it down.
I'm glad to see sense prevailing in at least a few places in this nation. No surprise it's in the Northwest.
It will be very interesting to see how the ecosystem responds to this removal.
Thanks for the pics and updates.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 30, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
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I'm not familiar with this project, but I think there are basically 3 options with sediment.
Remove all of the dam and let the sediment go downstream. There would be ways to make this happen slowly, such as removing the last parts of the dam a little at a time.
Scoop the sediment out and haul it somewhere and dump it.
Leave the sediment in place. So leave, for instance, the bottom 10 or 20 feet of the dam to hold the sediment and construct a small fish ladder.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Sep 30, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
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I would think they would want to dredge that sediment out before removing the dam. Dredging isn't that complicated, scoop, plop, haul away. This seems like a much better option than letting it run downstream and screw up miles of riverbed that won't recover from that kind of loading any time soon.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Sep 30, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
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Not all of this sediment will be silt. Think of the river with no new sediment load in 50 years. It needs some! The trick it to not dump it all at once.
There is a damn here on Malibu creek that only has a shallow lake behind it and has 50 feet of silt behind it. They won't take it down and they won't haul the silt away first so we are stuck with a screwed up river forever. If they just popped the damn open during one of our big winters the silt would be gone in a year or two. Instead we will have a damn forever. Sad really.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
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They have carved down Glines Canyon dam to where water spills over the top
Here's a view of their barge setup
Meanwhile at Aldwell dam all spillway infastructure has been removed and the dam itself lowered about 10 feet. The river has been diverted to the east side of the dam while they blast the west spillway sill and deepen a diversion channel over there.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Nice posts!
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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I posted another thread on this yesterday and it went nowhere aside from Anders posting a link on how to find this one.
So in the interest of sharing exclusive pictures from inside the area closed to the public I'll update this thread also.
Here's a couple of shots of the downstream face of the upper dam.
And here's one looking downstream on the Whiskey Bend road
I have not been to the lower dam since the end of december, but back then
there appeared to be only about 40' remaining on that one.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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I can't believe how little interest there is on this. Sure it might not be in your neighborhood but this is big. What we learn here could lead to the restoration of Hetch Hetchy or perhaps even Glen canyon.
We now return to your regularly scheduled bantering.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Thanks Hardly.
Appreciate the pics as this is a very cool thing to watch unfold.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I don't think it's a lack of interest, it's more that there is not a lot that one can post. My guess is that most on ST are probably in agreement on the subject of dam removal, and that there's nothing to argue about.
To keep this thread bumped we need someone who feels about dam removal the way Rokjox feels about wolves, or Dr. F feels about republicans. Someone who will scream and rant endlessly about the horrors of dam removal, and how it's all a plot by liberals/conservatives/Wall Street/the Illuminati/aliens/Kalis to enrich themselves at the expense of... You know the tune.
But in this case, there is likely widespread agreement that the damming of rivers in the US went way too far, and that the time has come to try to reverse the damage. We all owe a debt of gratitude to Marc Reisner for bringing the issue to a wide audience with his book Cadillac Desert.
Anyway, even if you don't get a lot of responses, keep bumping. It is important.
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apogee
climber
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Yeah, don't be discouraged...just keep updating us. Just because you don't see anyone reply doesn't mean that the thread isn't being viewed.
That is really fascinating- 40' gone....how much to go? What happens to the decades worth of silt that's been accumlated? It doesn't seem very visible (yet)...is it being dredged or removed?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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KEEP ALL DAMS
SAVE THE DAMS
DAMS PROVIDE JOBS THAT TRICKLE DOWN
WATER TRICKLES DOWN
LEFT WING CONSERVATIVES WILL RUIN US ALL
BUMP THE THREADS
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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Apogee,
About 170' remains of Glines Canyon. I think the silt problem may have been overstated or misunderstood at the very least. These photos are in what used to be Lake Aldwell and as you can see the river is carving a nice channel thru the sediment leaving most of it high and dry. The photo with my cat shows grasses and willows already trying to reoccupy the site after only a month or two of exposure.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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As of this week lower dam is gone and fish can now get past.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Mar 24, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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OK the cat pics are wrong...so very wrong.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Mar 24, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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What was the dollar cost of doing this removal?
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
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What's wrong with my cat photo? She gives an idea of the size of new grass and willow shoots
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apogee
climber
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Mar 24, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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That's amazing. Wonder what the long-term rehab plans are...?
ec-p...what's your point?
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Bread
Trad climber
Craggy Mountains, NC
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Mar 25, 2012 - 08:50am PT
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Check out this dam decommisioning in Washington
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLNv8yf1RAc
That's a bunch of sediment. From what I understand, the gradient of the river below the dam is steep and it's a short run to the ocean. Guess those were the mitigating factors in letting the sediment fly.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 25, 2012 - 11:29am PT
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Great video - and really shows the fact that these dams basically just collect enormous amounts of sediment in a short period of time greatly reducing their utility. Even after the water drained vast amounts of highly unstable sediments were left lining the banks. Those will probably be in a constant state of collapse over the next few winters and it will be interesting to see how long it takes for them to either wash away or stabilize. The river is constricted again where it enters the Columbia River and it will also be interesting to see how much of the dam sediment recollects down at that spot.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Mar 25, 2012 - 11:32am PT
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I have no point Silver... just wondering what it costs to remove such a dam.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Mar 25, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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Love the cat pic. Thanks for the thread.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
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Here ya go let me know with a TFPU (or any response for that matter) if ya find this more interesting than why Bluering hates everybody.
It has been awhile since the last update, here is the state of affairs as of 10/20/12
Aldwell dam 9/30/11
The following photo was taken on 10/24/12 from where the red x is in the above shot
Glines Canyon dam in its glory days
Glines Canyon 10/20/12 only about 25' of 217' remains
See ya all on page 2 or 3 in short order
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Thanks for the update - really good to see some successful dam removals setting a precedent for more of the same in the future.
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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Interesting thread bump! I used to walk over that to climb on the Elwha wall but haven't been there for years now. I hear there is a new access trail so the climbing is open from the other side if anyone heads that way. I did a community college project on this when the removal issue was still somewhat theoretical in 1995 or so. Wonder where that video tape went . . .
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Hardly,thanks for the updates.This whole issue indirectly runs in my family.My sister was doing black bear research around the Elwha for years to see if the damn removal would affect the bears returning due to the salmon/steelhead running.My brother-in-law is one of the head marine biologists in the park.They live in PA.Keep on postin' up.Yer sending me better pix than they are! ;-)
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nice drill in the last photo. Guess there're gonna shot the rest?
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
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Here's some shots taken from Windy Arm which used to be about half way up Lake Mills. These were taken in August when about 70 feet of Glines Canyon dam remained.
Capt. is yer sister's name Kim?
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Uhhh ohhhh....I've been outted ;-). Yeah,that's my little sis.I assume you know Steve too then.Do you work with them? I'm Kirk by the way.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
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Last bit of glines canyon dam is out and coho salmon have been seen spawning upstream of there.
Here's a recent pic in former lake mills looking at the damsite
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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interesting thread. I remember seeing an exhibit about this at the Seattle Aquarium. Any idea what the final cost vs original cost is and who provided the funding?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Kevin, this has been news to me, this thread.
I'm so glad you stuck with it.
There will be lots of folks interested when word gets around, and it will, about this restoration.
Bread's video is excellent. I'm assuming it all took place in one morning/day, since there were no nighttime shots. That was awesome to see.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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TFPU & staying with it.
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dirtbag
climber
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Correction Dingus: "No dam that's awesome." :-)
This is amazingly cool. We need more removals.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Time-lapse webcam video of the Glines Canyon dam removal:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Sorry you couldn't make it down this morning Kevin -- but we'll keep the coffee pot on standby.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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amazing to see the sediment shifting around in the videos.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Fascinating to see the changes over time. Super interesting and TFPU! Hope you continue to update this as the years go by and to see the natural process of silk removal/erosion and habitat restoration.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 09:27am PT
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[photoid=362931]
Thanks for the crop tip nut again
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
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Some recent shots from the former head of lake mills.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Thanks for keeping this updated. It will be interesting to see how the former lakebeds return to forest over the next decades.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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Here is some more stuff in glines canyon itself.
Bump this thread so others my enjoy.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Oct 17, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
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on one pic posted above, you note that some re-veg cuttings are not doing so well. Can you describe what other rehab projects are going on? Thanks for the pics
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
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Ca Timothy,
Aside from some reveg and planting some salmon smolts upstream I do not know of anything else going on . The river is doing a fine job of redistributing the sediments no need to interfere.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Oct 17, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
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HV... thanks for posting.
Looks like the river will be just fine now. The water looks very clear, I figured the water would be all silted up. I wonder what will happen when we get some winter storms and some big rains.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Oct 17, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
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The power companies and fisheries people learned on the Columbia River tributary dam removals was that the rivers dealt with the sediments much more quickly that they anticipated.
The 2007 Marmot dam on the Sandy was projected to take months or years to recover, and most of the sediment was redistributed in one day. spawning beds below the dam were even improved.
Fish were swimming past the dam site within a week.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
The Condit Dam removal on the White Salmon River was done a little differently. The dam bottom was breached and then the dam was removed. Full removal took a year, but salmon were swimming upstream within days of the breach.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Both rivers now sustain very good salmon spawning.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 17, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
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I care about the salmon and vegetation and all, but does anyone know if the surfing break at the Mouth of the Elwah has changed?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Oct 17, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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great thread having now visited the area. The sediment and topography make sense to me.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Oct 18, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
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Hardly, thanks for posting these pics over the course of this project, hard to find perspectives of an amazing project here in Washington. The breaching of the dikes and the restoration of the Nisqually delta is another great habitat project in our state.
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
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Have not updated this thread in a while, but since the last update the Elwha has literally been on a rampage. Now that the river has the entire watershed to collect logs from the number of logjams have increased one hundred fold and coupled with the excess of sand and gravel being worked out of the former Lake Mills raising the stream bed in areas where no deposition has been occurring for the last 80 years the Elwha refuses to stay where it has historically been since it was dammed in the late 1920’s.
Last year during a big warm gulley washer of a storm the river took out a chunk of land and was threatening to take out the Olympic hot springs road at the park boundary necessitating a month long bank reinforcement project last summer during low water. During that same storm the river widened and deepened the stream channel at the highway 101 bridge crossing. This bridge built in 1927 was at the head of Lake Aldwell the reservoir of the lower Elwha dam built 13 years prior to that, so it has never had a free flowing Elwha going under it, something for which I am sure it was not designed for. Despite assurances from county officials and state D.O.T folks that it is ok the longevity of this bridge concerns me since I live on the opposite side of it from town and if it were all of a sudden not be there getting to Port Angeles from my place would not be easy.
This year as a result of our last flood episode a few weeks ago the Olympic hot springs road is once again closed at the park boundary for an indefinite period. This time an old side channel that flowed behind the Elwha campground was reactivated filling the campground with sand and driftwood and taking the road out completely where the side channel crosses the road at the lower end of the campground.
Further upstream at Altaire campground which used to have about 30 campsites there is at the most 4 of them left and by all appearances I’d say they are not long for this world.
It is fascinating to watch the changes but at the same time disheartening for me that the road into the park is threatened to such a degree, with me being less ambulatory than I once was and the Olympic National Park’s history of taking forever to fix things or not fixing them at all. In the meantime it makes for a nice place to go for a bicycle ride with zero auto traffic and scarcely anyone up there at all.
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c wilmot
climber
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Dec 27, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
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No dam = uncontrollable water...
The people who wanted better fishing forgot that dams did more than generate power and conserve water....
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 27, 2015 - 06:48pm PT
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112 still open?
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 27, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
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Were the losses due to the impacts to the roads, campgrounds and other recreational park facilities mitigated (committed to) in the NPS NEPA document? If so, great. If not, they better get ready to do so now.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 27, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
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^^^
NEPA doc was likely produced via the Corps Sec10/404 permit, by the ACOE, rather than an NPS produced one. At least if NPS was smart that's how they would have done it. Mitigating for unforseen consquences of dynamic natural river systems...unlikely, IMO.
I say that as someone who wrote those ACOE NEPA docs and issued permits under Sec10 of RHA/Sec 404 of CWA for several years in a part of the country with river systems that makes lower 48 look like static trickles.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
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No dam = uncontrollable water...
That is the whole point - let the river be a river and let water do what water does.
There's a stunning quantity of silt building up where Elwah enters Juan de Fuca.
To be expected when you dump it all at once.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 30, 2015 - 01:07pm PT
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The people who wanted better fishing forgot that dams did more than generate power and conserve water....
Among those other things was stopping salmon migration. That's kinda important if you want fish.
Actually, the river mouth is being restored to it's old size. When the silt stopped with dam construction, it eroded away.
The silt is now arriving at the sediment starved Elwah feeder bluffs, which feed Ediz hook by Port Angeles.
http://www.coastalwatershedinstitute.org/blog/?m=201410
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 30, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 11, 2016 - 09:11am PT
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Windmills: The "dams" of my generation........
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 11, 2016 - 01:29pm PT
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Seriously?
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labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
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Mar 11, 2016 - 01:37pm PT
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Windmills = Bird choppers unfortunately ;-(
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Mar 11, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
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I think Quixote means wind turbans, which are, of course, a cunning plot by Muslims.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Mar 11, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
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Not just that Dingus, 7 or 8 miles added to trailheads.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 11, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
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Windmills are the dams of my generation. Established under a hail of government subsidy boondoggle to be abandoned when the depreciation is all gone and the big daddy .gov handout has moved to the next appropriation du jour.
And we will be left to look at them, rusting, dangerous, impacting the environment and worthless and wonder "who is going to fix this mess"?
Just like the dams.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2016 - 12:35am PT
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Or not.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 12, 2016 - 07:12am PT
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Cool pics Kevin. Fascinating thread. If you really want people to pay attention you may have to dress the cat up in cute-er outfits though:)
It will be interesting to see how fast the fish re-establish themselves. Weird how salmon can figure stuff out- even if they haven't been there for generations.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 07:30am PT
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Please tell me one thing.
What development is acceptable to environmentalists?
Dams = bad. kills fish
Windmills bad - kills birds.
Coal bad - C02
Nat gas bad - fracking... a few faucets caught on fire...
Solar bad - turtles.
Metal mining bad - sulfer / acid mine drainage
Drilling bad - noise and stuff
So that said, when there is no new energy, no metals, no water... How do you plan to live?
Honest question... Everything is either grown or mined, so if you can't do either, because you don't have affordable inputs, then what?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 07:41am PT
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Just pointing out what I see.
Every drilling proposal in Colorado is fought tooth and nail by assorted groups.
Any mine or exploration project is opposed and fought, regardless of environmental controls, and many times before a permit application discussing those controls is even submitted.
Coal plants and coal mines are being shut down, coal plants - regardless or their efficiency.
But goddammit you want cheap food and low energy bills...
Tell me what development is acceptable?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 07:50am PT
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I have no problem with it in my back yard. I work at a mine.
We do it right. Our drinking water was at one point miner pee, so to speak...
NIMBY'ism is chicken-shit and ignorance. Failure to be involved, understand what is going on around you, and the interconnected-ness of society. Electricity doesn't come from the outlet in the wall, and food doesn't come from the grocery store...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 12, 2016 - 08:59am PT
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Not to mention that the Khumbaya crowd refuses to talk about zero growth.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2016 - 09:05am PT
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Coal plants and coal mines are being shut down, coal plants - regardless or their efficiency.
It isn't about the efficiency alone - it's about the full life cycle: mountaintop removal, generation pollution, and fly ash disposal and management. The first is an obscenity, the second is much improved, the third is an unspoken nightmare.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Mar 12, 2016 - 09:58am PT
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Seems to me that veggies and electricity are still pretty cheap,and there is plenty of development and pollution. If this is what fighting tooth and nail gets you, keep up the rear guard action. Unrestrained development gets ugly.
Now would it be great to have smart, limited development that involved more engineers and fewer attorneys? Sure. And if everybody was nice to each other we wouldn't need cops.
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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 10:07am PT
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Dave,
your question is as Dingus points out, a black and white thinking process. If you stick to black and white thinking, then it could be thrown back at you as.. What if we did nothing? What if we allowed everyone to do whatever they wanted wherever they wanted? Do you remember polluted skies? Do you remember polluted drinking water? How would you like it if no one did anything to stop pollution? Or strip mining? Or strip logging? What would the world look like then?
So the more proper way to look at these kinds of things is where is the balance? what can be done to mitigate the issues that arise. For instance with Solar.. Instead of having these large installations that create all kinds of problems, why not look more into putting solar on top of more homes. Instead of clear cut logging, look at sustainable logging. Its been done, and it works rather well, giving us the products that we need, while keeping the forests healthy.
The push the becomes to try to determine if doing something kills our future, or sustains it.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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Name one project - oil and gas, mine, dam that has been built unopposed.
There are regulation and best practice to mitigate environmental damage. Regardless of that, and a plethora of engineering, every project is opposed.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
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Mar 12, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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Just stumbled upon this thread.....good reading. Thanks for starting it back in the day.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
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Regardless of that, and a plethora of engineering, every project is opposed
It couldn't possibly be because industry has a long and lousy track record of self-regulating and self-policing. That stands today when you have bad actors like Duke Energy spoiling it for companies who are trying to change their stripes.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Mar 12, 2016 - 02:05pm PT
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I'm with Randisi. How about taking the political arguments to one of the political threads? This is a great thread with lots of interesting input. The way fish are so quickly finding their way back upstream is astounding; the way the river is cleaning out silt, the growth of the beach at the mouth, all this is amazing. It's not often we get to see nature at work like this.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
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If you think industry is self regulated, then you obviously don't work in heavy industry.
I had the pleasure of hosting DOL safety inspectors just last week.
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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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If you think industry is self regulated, then you obviously don't work in heavy industry.
Thats not what he was saying. He was saying that because they don't control themselves, then someone has to. And even if the feds are watching them, someone has to watch the feds and make sure that they do their jobs. Otherwise greed ends up ruling the day. And there are way more stories of companies greed ruining things, then there are of decent companies managing resources wisely.
you want environmentalists to back off?
Maybe when you can prove to them that mining industries will play nice and treat the environment and their employees with respect. And maybe when they pay for all of the damage that they have done. How many mine sites still need to be cleaned up because they are environmental disasters.
And none of this means that we don't want the products that come from mining. We just want it done wisely. With an eye on the future and not just temporary profits.
I am willing to pay more for things that are done wisely, such as using less of things like pesticides. Or paying more for solar generated power instead of coal or oil fired generators. And I do understand that we haven't gotten to the point where we can rely only on solar. I just want that when we do using things like coal or oil, we do our best to mitigate the problems that they create.
You imply that we do not understand your point of view.. How about you understanding our point of view?
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
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I'm curious how someone would think that a thread regarding dam removal in this country, and its attendant challenges, isn't already political?
For the record Dave, my objection to wind energy has little to do with the killing of birds or environmental concerns but has everything to do with the insanely stoopid subsidy complex that accompanies it. Wind energy is a joke and is nothing more than a .gov boondoggle.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
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I do understand the point of view, because I live downstream of my own operation. You think I want my own drinking water polluted? The air in the mountains I regularly climb? You think any miner, driller, logger wants to piss in his own pot?
Most of the pollution that people see came from pre-1975 (pre-NEPA) mines, many of which were shutdown decades ago (Gold King?). Standards and regulations are much different today. And yet its not enough for the greens...
For the record, I agree with the subsidy comment, Escopeta...
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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
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Its political.. I believe the sentiment has more to do with just wanting a chance to celebrate.
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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:46pm PT
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Dave, I don't doubt that you understand the need to not pollute your own water, but I have run into people who still don't get it. And recently at that. And I have seen greed overcome people's better sense. Wouldn't you admit that some mine owners will cut corners if they think no one is looking? Or if they think that they can bully their way out of the problem.
I do understand that likely some rules and regulations are out of balance. What in human society is in balance? Is every miner or mine owner a fully enlightened being? Of course not. And neither are environmentalists. Its not black and white on either side of the equation. And that is I believe the best way to approach talking about these issues. When people are willing to recognize both sides of the issue, then solutions are more likely to come about.
If all rules and regulations were perfectly balanced, do you believe that there are no mine owners who still would not try and cut corners. Or mine developers?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
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Of course not... Its human nature to cut corners... Like the EPA did at Gold King....
That's why regulations have evolved to where they are. But when the environmental movement goes to the point of fighting projects, preempting them, and derailing them even before a permit application has been filed or proposal put up to learn how the regs will be applied to the project design... The movement has gone too far.
When even EPA admits a regulation is more about the numbers than about saving a fish or preventing illness... The movement has gone too far.
Just my opinion...
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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
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you speak of environmentalist as though they are one cohesive group. They aren't. Just as there are wise and decent mine owners and or corrupt ones, there are wise and decent environmentalists and fools.
One reason environmentalists still fight these things is because of the corners that have been cut and are still being cut. Including by the government.
One Major building project in Wawona was recently stopped in part because the church group that was behind it did not do the studies that they claimed that they did, and the government did not check to see that they did do the studies. They just took their word because my goodness. A church group wouldn't lie.
And the reason to fight a project early in the development stage is because its can be almost impossible to stop some projects once they get enough momentum and enough money behind them. Especially projects that are unwise. So its just part of the process now.
So.. Again.. Its just not a black and white situation.
Is that too bad? Yep.. Its too bad that its needed because greed and corruption still rule the day.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 06:14pm PT
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It's all about balance Dave. As you know. Too few regulations or too many regs, both get's you issues. As far as dam removal, it too, is all about balance. Lots of things to consider. Age and condition of dam, what would removal do? What does it generate and is that easily replaced? Some old dams don't generate much power, cost a lot to keep maintained, are deteriating and all but sh#t on the fish runs while doing little positive for us. Some provide so much power, that to get rid of them would cause you to have to find replacement power at an insanely hugely higher cost. Every power source has issues, some are big, like coal, some not so much, but it's all about choices, trade offs and costs.
Nobody gets it all, but having abundant inexpensive power is a cornerstone of a strong country. We have these discourses here, anyone remember the spirited Fracking discourse for instance? http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1472101&tn=0&mr=0
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