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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 11, 2016 - 09:11am PT
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Windmills: The "dams" of my generation........
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 11, 2016 - 01:29pm PT
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Seriously?
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labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
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Mar 11, 2016 - 01:37pm PT
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Windmills = Bird choppers unfortunately ;-(
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Mar 11, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
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I think Quixote means wind turbans, which are, of course, a cunning plot by Muslims.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Mar 11, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
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Not just that Dingus, 7 or 8 miles added to trailheads.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 11, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
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Windmills are the dams of my generation. Established under a hail of government subsidy boondoggle to be abandoned when the depreciation is all gone and the big daddy .gov handout has moved to the next appropriation du jour.
And we will be left to look at them, rusting, dangerous, impacting the environment and worthless and wonder "who is going to fix this mess"?
Just like the dams.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2016 - 12:35am PT
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Or not.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 12, 2016 - 07:12am PT
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Cool pics Kevin. Fascinating thread. If you really want people to pay attention you may have to dress the cat up in cute-er outfits though:)
It will be interesting to see how fast the fish re-establish themselves. Weird how salmon can figure stuff out- even if they haven't been there for generations.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 07:30am PT
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Please tell me one thing.
What development is acceptable to environmentalists?
Dams = bad. kills fish
Windmills bad - kills birds.
Coal bad - C02
Nat gas bad - fracking... a few faucets caught on fire...
Solar bad - turtles.
Metal mining bad - sulfer / acid mine drainage
Drilling bad - noise and stuff
So that said, when there is no new energy, no metals, no water... How do you plan to live?
Honest question... Everything is either grown or mined, so if you can't do either, because you don't have affordable inputs, then what?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 07:41am PT
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Just pointing out what I see.
Every drilling proposal in Colorado is fought tooth and nail by assorted groups.
Any mine or exploration project is opposed and fought, regardless of environmental controls, and many times before a permit application discussing those controls is even submitted.
Coal plants and coal mines are being shut down, coal plants - regardless or their efficiency.
But goddammit you want cheap food and low energy bills...
Tell me what development is acceptable?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 07:50am PT
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I have no problem with it in my back yard. I work at a mine.
We do it right. Our drinking water was at one point miner pee, so to speak...
NIMBY'ism is chicken-shit and ignorance. Failure to be involved, understand what is going on around you, and the interconnected-ness of society. Electricity doesn't come from the outlet in the wall, and food doesn't come from the grocery store...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 12, 2016 - 08:59am PT
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Not to mention that the Khumbaya crowd refuses to talk about zero growth.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2016 - 09:05am PT
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Coal plants and coal mines are being shut down, coal plants - regardless or their efficiency.
It isn't about the efficiency alone - it's about the full life cycle: mountaintop removal, generation pollution, and fly ash disposal and management. The first is an obscenity, the second is much improved, the third is an unspoken nightmare.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Mar 12, 2016 - 09:58am PT
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Seems to me that veggies and electricity are still pretty cheap,and there is plenty of development and pollution. If this is what fighting tooth and nail gets you, keep up the rear guard action. Unrestrained development gets ugly.
Now would it be great to have smart, limited development that involved more engineers and fewer attorneys? Sure. And if everybody was nice to each other we wouldn't need cops.
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John M
climber
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Mar 12, 2016 - 10:07am PT
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Dave,
your question is as Dingus points out, a black and white thinking process. If you stick to black and white thinking, then it could be thrown back at you as.. What if we did nothing? What if we allowed everyone to do whatever they wanted wherever they wanted? Do you remember polluted skies? Do you remember polluted drinking water? How would you like it if no one did anything to stop pollution? Or strip mining? Or strip logging? What would the world look like then?
So the more proper way to look at these kinds of things is where is the balance? what can be done to mitigate the issues that arise. For instance with Solar.. Instead of having these large installations that create all kinds of problems, why not look more into putting solar on top of more homes. Instead of clear cut logging, look at sustainable logging. Its been done, and it works rather well, giving us the products that we need, while keeping the forests healthy.
The push the becomes to try to determine if doing something kills our future, or sustains it.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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Name one project - oil and gas, mine, dam that has been built unopposed.
There are regulation and best practice to mitigate environmental damage. Regardless of that, and a plethora of engineering, every project is opposed.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
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Mar 12, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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Just stumbled upon this thread.....good reading. Thanks for starting it back in the day.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
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Regardless of that, and a plethora of engineering, every project is opposed
It couldn't possibly be because industry has a long and lousy track record of self-regulating and self-policing. That stands today when you have bad actors like Duke Energy spoiling it for companies who are trying to change their stripes.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Mar 12, 2016 - 02:05pm PT
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I'm with Randisi. How about taking the political arguments to one of the political threads? This is a great thread with lots of interesting input. The way fish are so quickly finding their way back upstream is astounding; the way the river is cleaning out silt, the growth of the beach at the mouth, all this is amazing. It's not often we get to see nature at work like this.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 12, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
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If you think industry is self regulated, then you obviously don't work in heavy industry.
I had the pleasure of hosting DOL safety inspectors just last week.
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