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tonesfrommars
Trad climber
California
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Jan 23, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
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Because you guys think the bolts should be drilled hanging from hooks instead of hanging from the rope? Hahaha
Is there a difference? yes. Bolting from a rap is trivial. the mechanics of ASCENDING the natural features plays no part. Bolting from stance or hook requires that you have to be able to GET THERE and also may involve some degree of exposure/risk.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jan 23, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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Bolting from below will inevitably involve unnecessary bolt/rivet ladders, whereas rap bolting avoids placing extra, unnecessary bolts
I'm not sure that this is even true on Cerro Torre. And Lama's concern for leaving gear is minimal (look at the pictures). Rap bolting generally leads to poorly located bolts and an over abundance of them....And that's ignoring the issues of style that are involved.
Lama can do what ever the hell he wants in Europe, just as long as he doesn't apply it whereever he would like
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 23, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
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Are you really going to rehash the whole 'Growing Up' thread in the context of Cerro Torre? Pretty pitiful if you can't
recognize and understand why what Lama is doing is so inappropriate. On the other hand, it's always been obvious and
inevitable that if Maestri's line wasn't chopped someone would eventually try to complete it given the way climbing has
gone in the intervening years.
From my perspective Lama is just a perverse form of validation for Maestri's intent, approach and desperation.
The latter in the form of what both's 'careers' stood to gain from the attending media exposure. In the end
this isn't so much a death, as an 'Embarrassment of the Impossible'. Were Maestri dead, I'd have said it gave
reincarnation a bad name; as it is, it's just the passing of a torch that went out forty years ago.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jan 23, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
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do you think he will do one of those "No Fear" sideways handstand kind of things when he gets on top and then base jump to the bottom and then drop in to Sean White's new super secret half pipe and then flutag and then
puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
aaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrrr
In the words of Ashton Kuetcher in Harold and Khumar do Whitecastle while at the Chinese drive through.
NO MORE AND THEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 23, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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Mike, that was a waste of electrons. Do you have anything of value to add?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jan 23, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
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It should have been chopped to prevent idiots from taking the perspective that you have adopted. And if you think that respected members of the climbing community think its ok to rap bolt Cerro Torre, please list them. I'd love to know.
It happened once, so it must be ok!
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Jan 23, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
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now would be a really good time to chop the compressor route.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 24, 2011 - 12:01am PT
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The Fitzroy/Cerro Torre Massif has become a Southern Hemisphere version of Chamonix. I am so glad to have been able to enjoy the area in the pre El Chalten days- RIP.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jan 24, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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hedge,
Take for example the Jardine Traverse. El cap was chopped with a chisel for christ sake, and many respectable climbers have since climbed the Nose using this traverse. Does that mean they all think it was ok to chisel a route into El Cap? Of course not. I bet you cant find a single climber who says that the Jardine traverse should exist in the first place.
The compressor route is a travesty whose legacy is being continued by David Lama.
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Jan 24, 2011 - 08:29am PT
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I agree with Jim. It's pitiful what has happened to this absolutely amazing area since Chalten grew out of the ground. It went from being the unknown bottom of the Earth where true adventure was still possible to the center of cyber arguments of some wanker rap bolting a variation to a via-ferrata! The world has truly shrunk, like a cold scrotum.
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Jan 24, 2011 - 08:50am PT
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so this is the link i found for contacting mammut, i don't know if anyone has a better one.
http://www.mammut.ch/en/apps/contact.html
good luck to colin and the rest of the folks down there. i am hoping that they can use their intelligence, humor, good looks, whatever to make david lama realize that rap bolting, over bolting, leaving fixed lines, climbing for publicity, ect is a really dumb idea. we all did stupid sh#t when we were twenty. it's best to not have things with such dire lasting consequences that will be known internationally a result of such mistakes.
it will suck for the next sixty years to have every mountaineer that meets you say "oh your david lama, the dumb sh#t who rap bolted cerro torre? what were you thinking?"
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Captain...or Skully
climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Jan 24, 2011 - 08:56am PT
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Word, tinker b.
I'd hate to have that hangin' over me. Yeesh.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jan 24, 2011 - 09:54am PT
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Here's Red Bull(sh*t)'s response to my latest complaint email to them. This is from Susanne Degn, a producer at RB.
Dear Terry,
after further discussing with our production crew I want to point out that we see David Lama's attempt to free climb the compressor route as historic
and feel the obligation to document this attempt in an authentic, unique and outstanding production.
As originally planned we had the entire shoulder and wall cleaned of our and older fixed ropes by local mountain guides who have worked with us
throughout the entire project. Only one haul bag with climbing equipment remained on the mountain. The exact number of bolts placed by the production
crew was 30 as communicated earlier and outlined in the enclosed topography.
For the completion of the project we will refrain from using further bolts and remove the existing ones as part of this years attempt.
The planned documentary shall witness David's undertaking rather than stand in its way.
All the best,
Susanne
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 24, 2011 - 10:56am PT
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the kid stupid is as stupid does.
rap bolting cerror torre is just so gay..
f*#k that kid..
i really appreciate what you have done for climbing....so don't get me wrong.....
but am i the only one who sees the irony in your statements?
how many routes have you rap-bolted?
i get the difference between some choss and cerro torre, i am just wondering....
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ncrockclimber
climber
NC
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Jan 24, 2011 - 10:58am PT
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Here's Red Bull(sh*t)'s response to my latest complaint email to them. This is from Susanne Degn, a producer at RB.
Dear Terry,
after further discussing with our production crew I want to point out that we see David Lama's attempt to free climb the compressor route as historic and feel the obligation to document this attempt in an authentic, unique and outstanding production.
As originally planned we had the entire shoulder and wall cleaned of our and older fixed ropes by local mountain guides who have worked with us throughout the entire project. Only one haul bag with climbing equipment remained on the mountain. The exact number of bolts placed by the production crew was 30 as communicated earlier and outlined in the enclosed topography.
For the completion of the project we will refrain from using further bolts and remove the existing ones as part of this years attempt.
The planned documentary shall witness David's undertaking rather than stand in its way.
All the best,
Susanne
Ummm... how does rap bolting a climb = "we will refrain from using further bolts"?
This type of PR bullshit is infuriating to me. If there weren't enough wrong with what Lama is doing, we now have RedBullshit flat-out lying about it.
At 20, most of us were young and stupid. I know I was. Lama get's some understanding from me for his behavior. I am sure that he is surrounded by "yes-men" and handlers that are telling him that he is great, and that he doesn't fully understand the issues. That does not excuse his actions. In the end we are all responsible for what we do and Lama is responsible for this fiasco. None of this would be happening if it was not for him, and it is well within his power to mandate a different method for recording this ascent. Instead, he displays NO respect for the accepted ethics of the local climbing community or the larger global community of alpinists. And then there is his total disregard for LNT. You don't even have to include the new bolts in this part of the conversation. That Lama could give a f*#k about his impact is unfortunately just too obvious. Apparently, cleaning up your own trash and being considerate of others is something only mere mortals need to do.
I will probably never climb Cerro Torre. (saying "probably" is probably not accurate. I actually have a snowballs chance in hell of climbing Cerro Torre!) However, I like the fact that it is there. I like knowing that there is a test-piece on which the strongest and boldest members of our community can push the limits of what is possible. To my mind rap-bloting this iconic spire is akin to running a 3 minute mile with a jet pack; it just doesn't count. That a multi-national brand driven corp is funding this fiasco and misrepresenting it as groundbreaking is sadly indicative of a society that places the end above the means and lacks the understanding to differentiate between hype and substance.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 24, 2011 - 11:21am PT
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we see David Lama's attempt to free climb the compressor route as historic
HUH? Exactly what is "historic" about this?
Does Red Bullshit even know the history?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 24, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
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I like knowing that there is a test-piece on which the strongest and boldest members of our community can push the limits of what is possible.
a test piece first completed by hauling a big ass compressor up there which placed the bolts for cerro torre to even be ascended by most of the climbers who have managed it....irony?
funny how we have accepted one travesty already on that great mountain....
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ncrockclimber
climber
NC
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Jan 24, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
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Hawkeye, It was not my intention to condone the first bolt ladder. The original line and Lama's plan (from what I have read) are both f*#ked-up.
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