Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
|
My response on Will Gadd's blog post linked above:
Hmmm. Well, I 'love your work', but taking it from the top of your reasoned and objective assessment of the whole affair, I'd say your analysis bleeds quite a sympathetic bias from the outset. Along the way you appear to be trying to 'calm' the situation by framing it in 'facts' which purport to minimize both the impact and Lama / Red Bull's unfettered intent.
When I hear phrases like these:
"...high production value..."
"...the safety plan..."
"...infrastructure..."
I'm glad to hear you understand they are concepts which are entirely inappropriate on Cerro Torre.
The moment you hear them you can be instantly assured climbing has been relegated to the role of generic sport content in the context of why everyone is there. At that point the decision has been taken to capture x minutes of commercial content. And once a check has been cut the issues endemic to that content - in this case climbing - unavoidably become priorities subsidiary to production and delivery. And besides, bolts are given no framed context in the resulting product from either the public's or Red Bull's perspective so it's no wonder they have a hard time grasping what the problem might be (and that's on David's Red Bull handler).
Then there's AG's statement:
"...or he would not return with the crew..."
At least he makes no bones about his priorities. But he appears to not realize why his presence is so innappropriate - understandable, however, if the production, and not Cerro Torre itself, is the objective and priority of note. And it might just as well be a sound stage if you are so driven, blind or indifferent as to mistake Cerro Torre for just another job site instead of a place revered for its beauty and wildness.
"David Lama had not thought about whether or not the bolts were necessary"
"Lama didn't understand the anger as he didn't put any of the bolts in."
Really? That's a lot like a demur housewife taking out a hit on her husband and later being shocked at the reaction because she had not thought about whether the bullets were necessary, and besides, she didn't pull the trigger - she was too busy in bed with her lover. That you would even post these statements hoping they'd come off as either plausible, innocently naive, or could somehow garner David a 'pass' is pretty weak and lacking a base level of credibility.
"I really don't care much about what the anchors are..."
And neither apparently did David or AG.
"All the spittle on keyboards, reasoned response, and pulpit slamming fundamentalism means nothing when your hands grab the stone."
[That's] also clearly evident in much of today's impressive [commercial] demographic. Climbing is well on it's way to becoming mythically heroic while at the same time insuring we'll all make it home for dinner.
As climbing is successfully mainstreamed into our broader, pop cultural identity the marketing and media demands for continuously 'fresh' content may develop into a fairly rapacious appetite. Where will we draw the line? And when we demand that everywhere be digitally accessible 24x7 will anyone be left standing who even remembers when that line wasn't fixed? I hope so..
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
|
Colin Haley's Blog entry:
Photo 1: One of the Redbull bolts on the Compressor Route that was removed by Garibotti (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Photo 2: More Redbull bolts on the Compressor Route (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Photo 3: The same belay after the bolts were chopped by Garibotti (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Photo 4: Another of the Redbull bolts above the Col of Patience (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Photo 5: Some of the Redbull bolts below the Col of Patience, which were supposedly drilled on a separate line - yet are located a few meters from established natural rappel anchors (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Photo 6: The same bolts after they were chopped by Garibotti (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
CERRO TORRE, DAVID LAMA AND REDBULL
In 1959, Cesare Maestri attempted to climb Cerro Torre via it's North Face. At some point during the climb, descent, or descent of the glacier below the face, Maestri's climbing partner, Toni Egger, perished. Maestri claimed that they had made the first ascent of Cerro Torre, and the third member of the expedition, Cesarino Fava, either believed Maestri or agreed to lie in agreement with Maestri. Over time, more and more doubts began to surface as to whether Maestri had indeed climbed Cerro Torre. Today it is widely accepted that Maestri made the most famous lie in the history of climbing.
Angered by all the skepticism, Maestri returned to Cerro Torre in 1970. To "prove" that in 1959 he had made the greatest ascent of all time, by an extremely-difficult line on the North Face (that still has not succombed to many attempts over decades, by extremely talented climbers, such as Alexander Huber, Stefan Siegrist, Thomas Ulrich, Toni Ponholzer, Ermanno Salvaterra, etc) in semi-alpine style, he began sieging an easier line on the mountain (the Southeast Ridge) with the help of a large team, thousands of meters of fixed rope, and a gasoline-powered air compressor to drill bolts with ease. On the lower part of the ridge, Maestri refrained from bolting very much (after all, there are tons of perfect granite cracks), but as he gained elevation it seems he lost more and more reason. He began his siege during the winter, and where the ridge-line (which is the natural line, contains good cracks, and was climbed by Ermanno Salvaterra and Mauro Mabboni in 1999) was caked with rime-ice, he decided instead to bolt a traverse across a huge section of blank rock on the right (east) side of the ridge. Higher up, on the headwall, Maestri drilled pitch after pitch of bolt ladders despite many cracks, because the pitons had accidently been forgotten lower on the route. Strangely, Maestri never even attempted to reach Cerro Torre's summit, and instead descended from the highest rock on the headwall. He didn't even allow his climbing partners to join him at his highest belay station. While rappelling the last pitch that he had climbed, Maestri chopped a long section of his bolt ladder. This is now known as the "Bridwell Pitch," re-drilled with rivets by Jim Bridwell when he and Steve Brewer made the first complete ascent of the Compressor Route (and third ascent of Cerro Torre) in 1979.
Maestri's siege of Cerro Torre's Southeast Ridge shocked the climbing world. Although many routes in the Andes, the Himalaya and Alaska have been "dumbed down" by the use of siege tactics, Maestri's ascent was an unprecedented low in terms of style, and remains today the worst example of climbing style the world has ever seen. Although no one knows exactly how many bolts he drilled into one of the world's most beautiful mountains, estimates range from 350 to 450. It was this disaster which Reinhold Messner coined "the murder of the impossible." The Compressor Route remains the most over-bolted and controversial climbing route in the world today. It makes what would otherwise be one of the world's most difficult mountains to summit a fairly easy climb, with so many pitches of A0 bolt ladders.
Since then, there have been many, many ascents of the Compressor Route (which many people recognize as not a true ascent of Cerro Torre), and two films have been made on it. In 1985, Fulvio Mariani created a film called "Cumbre," which contained footage of Marco Pedrini making the first solo ascent of the Compressor Route. "Cumbre" was filmed in alpine style, with only Mariani and Pedrini involved. It is a beautiful climbing film, and well worth watching. In 1992, Werner Herzog filmed "Scream in Stone" on the flanks of Cerro Torre. His expedition sadly fixed ropes on all of the Compressor Route and the Ferrari Route, and left lots of garbage on the Torre Glacier. However, even his large-scale production (with Hollywood actors, crashed helicopters and all) only felt the need to put two bolts in Cerro Torre.
The 2009-2010 season in El Chalten was memorable for two reasons: exceptionally bad weather (even by Patagonian standards), and the assault on Cerro Torre made by David Lama's Redbull-sponsored expedition. David Lama came to El Chalten with the intent of free-climbing Cerro Torre's Southeast Ridge (the "Compressor Route"), and a large crew came along with him with the intent of filming David Lama's ascent. Unfortunately, the expedition acted without much foresight, and began fixing a string of ropes up the Southeast Ridge. Bad weather prevented them from fixing their ropes beyond Maestri's ninety-meter bolt traverse.
In February 2010 David Lama's expedition left Patagonia early, dismayed by the horrendous weather. They did not bother to remove any of the ropes that they had fixed approximately 700 meters up the Compressor Route. More than a month after leaving Patagonia, Redbull hired several Argentine guides, Horacio Graton, Simon Brun, and Juan Raselli, to go remove Redbull's fixed ropes for them. The Argentine guides succeeded in stripping most of the fixed ropes from the route (but were not able to remove all of them), but were not able to carry all of the detritus down from the route, and thus were forced to leave two haulbags full of equipment at the bergshrund.
Much worse, Graton, Brun and Raselli returned to El Chalten with reports that the David Lama / Redbull expedition had placed approximately 30 bolts on the Compressor Route above the Col of Patience. It soon came to light that the Redbull expedition had in fact used a gasoline-powered generator to recharge their power drills - talk about history repeating itself! As news spread, the climbing world was rightly outraged that the David Lama / Redbull expedition had added bolts to what is already the most over-bolted route in the world, and on terrain where not even Cesare Maestri had felt the need to place bolts.
One of the mountain guides that Redbull had hired to fix ropes, Heli Putz, claimed publicly that only 12 bolts had been placed, and that they had been placed off of the normal climbing route. Because the climbing season was already well over when Heli Putz made this claim, it was impossible to verify if it was true or not.
On November 14, 2010, Rolando Garibotti and Doerte Pietron climbed the Compressor Route, and on their way managed to remove 17 of the Redbull bolts above the Col of Patience (but missed 3 more, which they were not able to remove). They discovered that not only had Heli Putz publicly lied about the number of bolts placed, but he had also lied about their location, with all of the new bolts having been placed on the route, many immediately next to established belays and perfect cracks.
On January 9, 2011, Rolando Garibotti, Doerte Pietron and myself, Colin Haley, climbed on the lower slopes of the Compressor Route, and we removed 12 more bolts that Redbull had placed below the shoulder (but we weren't able to remove 2-4 more, which are still in place). In this area, Redbull had claimed that they had bolted an alternate rappel route away from the normal one, but again, all of the new bolts were in close vicinity to established natural anchors.
THE GOOD NEWS:
David Lama and his crew of mountain guides and film makers returned to El Chalten last week, and many of the climbers here were apprehensive of how his expedition would behave this season. Fortunately, they have learned somewhat from their recklessness last season, and this year they have promised that they will not fix any ropes on route (which is good, because besides the obvious fact that fixing ropes is an unimpressive way to climb, the fixed ropes ruin the experience of other climbers on this popular route). They also have promised not to bolt on the established route, and have promised to remove the remaining 5-7 bolts that they left on the route last season. Their plan now is to climb as five people: in front will be a team of three (two mountain guides and one cinematographer), and behind will be David and his climbing partner, Peter. This is a logical way for them to shoot footage of David Lama's efforts to free-climb the route, and an important step forward for them.
THE BAD NEWS:
David Lama plans to bring a small bolt-kit with him, so that he has the option to hand-drill some bolts if necessary. If he adds bolts to the Salvaterra variation it would be totally out of line, as Salvaterra climbed the variation in 1999, and already placed all the necessary bolts (and Josh Wharton and Zack Smith climbed a variation to the variation in 2007, without adding any bolts). It is reasonable, however, that Lama is bringing the bolt kit, because on the headwall they will likely attempt a different line than the blank rock Maestri bolted, and the line they attempt will likely be terrain on which any climber would use bolts. What is not reasonable, however, is the way David Lama plans to use his bolt kit. In a conversation with me, Lama explained that they plan to reach the summit via the normal Compressor Route bolt ladders, and then rappel a separate line of weakness on the headwall, placing protection bolts on rappel. Yes, that's right - rap-bolting the Cerro Torre headwall! I tried to convince Lama that he might place the bolts on lead, hanging from hooks, but he insisted that rap-bolting was his intention. Zack Smith chimed in with, "You know that people will be very upset if you place your bolts on rappel, right?" Lama's response was "I can take it."
Before coming to Patagonia last season, Lama said in a Redbull interview, "Back in the days of old school mountaineering only conquering the peak was important - not so much how this goal was reached. To make it to the top, pitons and even ladders were used. Daniel and I want to make it without any sort of aid." It is ironic then that he doesn't feel capable of establishing the new terrain on lead, and instead plans to rap-bolt it. It is also ironic that Lama is only capable of rap-bolting Cerro Torre's headwall because of the A0 bolt ladders in place on the Compressor Route - To rap-bolt the headwall without the Compressor Route bolt ladders, Lama would have to first climb Cerro Torre by a difficult route or get dropped on the summit by helicopter. It is a shame that Lama lacks the confidence in his skills to attempt his project in clean, alpine style.
When I first heard that Lama's expedition had abandoned plans to fix ropes up the Compressor Route I was very pleased, and indeed even excited for their project. Sadly, these feelings disintegrated when I learned of Lama's plans to bring Cerro Torre down to his level by rap-bolting the headwall. I personally have nothing against rap-bolting at a sport-climbing crag, but I would've hoped that every climber in the world could see the difference between Cerro Torre and a sport crag. This ethical dilemma has nothing to do with differences between North American climbers and European climbers. The ground-up ethic is perhaps even stronger today in Europe than in North America, with many climbing areas strictly allowing only routes established on lead (famous examples being the Ratikon, or the South Face of the Marmolada).
So this, apparently, is the much-anticipated courage and vision of gym climbers applying their skills to the mountains.
|
|
nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:22am PT
|
lol... dave! Werner! but dave you left out one thing.... who's gonna take a dukie on their ropes? that'll learn them...
|
|
tonesfrommars
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 03:18am PT
|
uh, I believe the correct spelling is "dookie" nature. Let's keep the facts straight here.
BUMP!
Lama's testicles should be dropping any day now.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 10:40am PT
|
Wow, that third photo of the bolt right next to the big ass cam hole is amazing.
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 11:34am PT
|
The problem with taking a dukey on Lama's ropes (i.e., pulling a WoS) is that he'll show up on the Taco all filled with self-righteous indignation where he'll get into a he-said/she-said row with someone who genuinely has a spine. There's history there.
I see that sepia pic of Lama and I just want to clean is clock. S'all.
Wow, that third photo of the bolt right next to the big ass cam hole is amazing.
Hell, you could toss a big-ass nut in there blindfolded and be secure for life.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 11:49am PT
|
Hell, you could toss a big-ass nut in there blindfolded and be secure for life.
True, but he would have no idea what to do with a nut. Hell, he's got sub-men drilling bolts for him on rappel!
|
|
Disaster Master
Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
|
Is this a common anchor set up in Europe? As a "Sport Climber" who has placed a lot of bolts, I would feel safer hanging from multiple equalized cams. The bolts are too close and the single ring always makes me scratch my head when I see similar set ups. (Just a tech. sidebar...)
Are these guides afraid a nest of gear will dislodge? Is that their ultimate excuse in a situation like this?
|
|
altelis
Mountain climber
DC
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
|
The guide's justification is that industry standards call for much higher safety margins than he would use just guiding a client climbing. The extra people and heavy equipment called for bolted anchors.
And he may well have been justified in that reasoning. Same reasoning SAR uses for doing things differently during high-angle rescue than they would if they were just climbing for fun.
However the answer to that problem isn't to go ahead and bolt. The answer is to tell your client (RB/Lama) that you are very sorry, but you cannot take the job. You would be unable to provide the necessary safety margins (because bolting isn't an option).
|
|
atchafalaya
Boulder climber
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
|
I think you mean "your" answer to the "issue". Guy stated he was going up with a hand-drill and looking around on rappel. BFD. How long has the compressor route been there and its not been chopped?
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
|
BFD. How long has the compressor route been there and its not been chopped?
If you think the compressor route should be the standard style for the region, then this problem is even larger then I thought. Its fascinating that when an individual decides to degrade the local style standards, the consequence reverberates through time and eventually people begin to think that its OK or anyone to climb that way.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
|
Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses. And now it finds itself in the same historical situation as is love.
When love was poetry, it was exceptional and sacred. When mass media put love in TV and magazines, it became pornography.
I don't know if writing in a non-native language had something to do with this, or if it is actually a translation, but however it arrived at its present form, I find the first sentence obnoxious, wrong-headed, and almost guaranteed to be counter-productive.
The message is that we have to keep this pure and "sacred" activity away from the dirty masses who will cheapen and degrade it. Part of what may be a lack of linguistic sophistication is involved because masses seems to be used in two ways here, first as a way of referring to, well, to people, and secondly as part of a reference to mass media.
Now its not as if I totally disagree with the sentiments expressed, especially in the second sentence. I do think that sport climbing's tendency to spill over its boundaries threatens to degrade traditional climbing, and that those who value the experiences associated with traditional climbing will have to fight an ongoing rearguard action for them.
Moreover, it is clear that misguided projects such as Lama's can only be brought to fruition with the monetary support of commercial interests whose primary goal is to sell a product unrelated to the activity they are supporting, and this confluence of overweening desire and commercial interest is what produces pornography in the climbing world.
But, to blame all this on "the masses" turns away from the real issues and embraces a fallacious counterproductive concept of elitism that, if it had any truth at all, could only hasten the demise of the traditional ethic. If traditional climbing's only recourse is an appeal to exceptionalism, then it is truly doomed to extinction.
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
|
So the whole thing boils down to whether he bolts it on rap or not? Because you guys think the bolts should be drilled hanging from hooks instead of hanging from the rope? Hahaha
You can climb at your crag how ever you please, but when you travel to a foreign region its your responsibility to adhere to the local style, even if you might not fully understand it. I don't understand whats funny about this. And if you think that the compressor route is the local style then you're of f*#king idiot.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
|
Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses.
Rgold, they way I "saw" this statement is unless one has actual physical experience in "Alpinism" one would really have no real clue.
Just as this "LEB" person, for practical example, has no such clue either, except for some mental hallucinations she experiences. :-)
That's all it is and no real elitism in that ...
|
|
atchafalaya
Boulder climber
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
|
"If you think the compressor route should be the standard style for the region, then this problem is even larger then I thought."
Never said that. But don't let me stop you from getting your panties all bunched up.
|
|
okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
|
Does the guy really think that hanging on a rope to drill is less aid than hook-drilling? He said he wanted to do it free so that's why he's thinking of rap-bolting.
It would be awesome to see a route go up there in the style of the Bachar/Yerian.
I assume power tools are in use there? Don't think you'd see many bolts next to A1 cracks otherwise...but then again there are examples of that in Yosemite.
The Red Bull demographic doesn't care one way or the other, even the rappelling would be exciting to them.
|
|
wildone
climber
Troy, MT
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
|
Well, none of the "locals" removed it, did they? 30 plus years, right?
Hmmm.
(Just playing devil's advocate)
|
|
semicontinuous
Gym climber
Sweden
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
|
While I think rap-bolting Cerro Torre is boorish in the extreme, I fail to see any difference between that and Tommy Caldwell's top-roping and rap-bolting antics on Dawn-Wall.
|
|
e9climbing.blogspot.com
Mountain climber
Alps (Euro trash )
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
|
Climb ground up leave as little sh#t as possible after you. Don't trash a line to please your own personal ego if you know it can or will be done in a better style. Listening to this its like Hey I'm bolting this line and I will try it for the next 5 years. Lets see if I send... Well keep that sh#t to the sport crags.
This rap bolting is so f*#ked up and has nothing to do with climbing mountains like Cerro Torre. That kind climbing has other areas lacking development. If Lama wants a new a play ground play by the "rules".
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!