david lama and cerro torre again..

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supafly

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 21, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
paste from jason kruk's blog:

This year Chris Geisler and I won the John Lauchlan memorial grant for an unconventional project. We are in Argentine Patagonia at the moment with hopes of climbing the southeast ridge of Cerro Torre (also know as the Compressor Route) without utilizing any of Cesare Maestri's bolts.

Also planning on something similar are our friends Colin Haley and Zach Smith. Naturally, there has been A LOT of talk about the SE ridge between us: comparing strategies, possible variations to the line, equipment, etc. About a week ago David Lama and a crew of mountain guides and videographers arrived with intentions of resuming their project from last year - freeing the line of the Compressor Route, with Red Bull again the sponsor of the project.

The four of us as well as Rolo Garibotti have been in several dialogues with the Red Bull crew, hoping to gain some insight as to their intentions and the style in which they choose to attempt their project. We wanted to let them know of our plans so that everyone can be accommodated on the route and to ensure that our experience wouldn't be impacted by their tactics.

It has come out today that Lama and crew plan to climb to the top of Cerro Torre following Maestri's bolt line, then rappel from the top and rappel-bolt the best line for free climbing. Lama claims that this is the only way in which he will be able to complete the project within the next 5 years. He also says he can take the sh#t storm that is sure to ensue.

I am upset, and I don't know what to do about it.
socialclimber

Mountain climber
CA
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
If that is the only way HE can do it, HE should step out of the lineup and let someone more qualified do it...

Charles
supafly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
agreed but what is the chance of that happening?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
He also says he can take the sh#t storm that is sure to ensue.

Maybe some WOS tactics are needed from above! I'd like to see that on RB video.
bmacd

Social climber
100% Canadian
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
chop their lines - thats a clear message the locals are against you

and then keep chopping them ...
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:14pm PT
Well, it has finally come to pass. This is absolutely huge. I wonderful if Lama will be slaughtered even?

The boldest spire in the world may be rap-bolted---the nightmare that we kept having in the sixties, Pilgrims, is now about to emerge from the mist. Really.

RR said a couple decades ago, “Sport climbing is the child that wants to eat its mother”
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
stupid is as stupid does.
rap bolting cerror torre is just so gay..
f*#k that kid..
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
It must be the shroud of photogs and 'Allez,allez!' men that keeps the talented climber from seeing that what he does is not in line with current ethics. I'll admit that I'll probably never climb Cerro Torre, but the beauty of the mountain dictates a respectful ascent, not an ease based ascent.
Climb it on it's standards, not your own self imposed limits, please.

Randall_C

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
Is he trying to make Cesare proud?
QITNL

climber
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
Weld_it said it first and said it best:

send the hate trane down the tracks bras:

Red Bull Feedback Page
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
good one Randall!
Brian

climber
California
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:22pm PT
Obscene.
adam d

climber
The Bears, CA
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
a link to the "guestbook" on his site...

http://www.david-lama.com/en/servicenavigation/gaestebuch.html

and his "contact" information for his "Promotion"

http://www.david-lama.com/en/servicenavigation/kontakt.html

east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
seems like some 'ol fashioned surf style localism is in order, you and your crew need to pound some respect into the kook and his f@@#ked-up film bullshit
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
It seems the race is on.

Free by fair means has always had a limited shelf life but canned process can take (intentionally) for ever.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
heres an idea,
that crew that is there now should just ground up and send that rig and rub it in his pussy ass face.
booya!!
hb81

climber
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
I am upset, and I don't know what to do about it.

A good hard punch to his face maybe?

Rob_James

Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt. Cook Village, New Zealand
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
I'd love to meet Lama someday. That dude's begging for some comeuppance

I know Kelly Cordes has some punch-on pedigree and standing on the Torres - wish he was about there now
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
unbelievable......
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
Colin Haley is a bad ass. I hope he sends his project and kicks Lama's ass all in the same day.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
If it takes place, it will always be clear just as it was by Maestri's "whatever" climb: Lama's project will be just as repugnant and tainted.

Usually such farces are undertaken by older desperate men trying to leave their fingerprints in the stone; here we have a very young fool at work, a twink really. I will assume he will avoid the summit snow mushroom too, if it is in bad shape. Just like Cesare did.

I don't think this is "the next page" in climbing ethics. Instead it is another freakstorm we see every now and then. No matter what,
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
I love it. A few of you are threatening to fight this kid?

The term 'blowhard' comes to mind.
Brian

climber
California
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
I just sent some messages/rants to Red Bull and some of the other sites listed above. In addition to the standard threats of boycotts and whatnot, people should make it clear that, to the climbing community, these tactics look weak, cowardly, and retrograde. If the climbing community--including Alpinist, Climbing, Rock and Ice, and so on--can shape the public perception of this as a chickenshit act, it will run counter to the image Red Bull wants to project: rad, cutting edge, and so forth. Hopefully folks will somehow stop it from happening down there, but if Lama follows through I want the act to turn to ash in his mouth and the collective mouth of Red Bull, something that will brand him as a coward for all of history and that will mark Red Bull as a company that supports punks rather than folks really pushing the edge.

Brian
Josh Higgins

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:46pm PT
I left some nice vitriol on their feedback page. I hate Redbull to say the least.

Josh
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
Drama aside, who that frees it first makes the statement. History is written by the winners.
Everyone here has witnessed their local prize taken by whatever means possible.
I`m upset and don`t know what to do.... Do free climb it, time doesn`t stand still.
Josh Higgins

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
Who can write a good article to one of the climbing mags? Someone here must have their ear, and ability to bad mouth redbull eloquently and persuasively.

Josh
NigelSSI

Trad climber
BC
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
It's time we repaid our debts and searched again for the limits of possibility - for we must have such limits if we are going to use the virtue of courage to approach them. And we must reach them. Where else will we be able to find refuge in our flight from the oppression of everyday humdrum routine? In the Himalaya? In the Andes? Yes certainly if we can get there; but for most of us there'll only be these old Alps.

:/
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 21, 2011 - 10:59pm PT


If free climbing Cerro Torre is the prize, climbing it with out existing bolts is ill defined. Is the point about fair aid climbing, or should the elephant in the room get mounted...
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 21, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
Climbing community? You mean all those folks bouldering around Bishop?
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 21, 2011 - 11:16pm PT
Is he freeing it with Jardine? They can just chip some traverses and it will be all good! Wait, if red bull gives you wings, why does he need bolts???
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 21, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
As a clarification,

I hate what sponsorship and media has made of certain people when they go climbing. David Lama is too young to understand he is a sucker who doesn`t get that the first order is selling cans of sugar and not his climbing.

Still, even Robbins stepped off of the white horsie, got down to business and put paid on an obvious milestone.
punjab

Gym climber
oregon
Jan 21, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
THIS IS ABSURD! PLEASE SEND RED BULL AND MR. LAMA A MESSAGE EXPLAINING YOUR THOUGHTS. F THIS!!!!!!!

MATT.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 21, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
Perhaps it is just an ugly, misbegotten publicity stunt, on the basis that any publicity is good publicity. Lama and Red Bull(shit) announce their plans, get a firestorm of negative publicity from the average genteel SuperTopian right up to Reinhold (The Murder of the Impossible) Messner, and including pretty much a who's who in the climbing community. (Apart from some commercial climbers, that is - the ones who long ago sold their souls.) And then they gracefully back down, to "prove" how legitimate and responsible they are, and willing to hear public opinion.

The symbolism is telling, though - corrupt commercial forces collide head on with climbing community values on one of the world's most famous peaks, one that has long been a scene of drama. Not forgetting that many of the public couldn't care less, and in many places, these sorts of antics are unexceptionable.

I hope that Jason and friends get up the thing without the bolts and/or all free in the near future. It would utterly discredit what Lama says he's doing.

And given prevailing conditions there, you have to wonder how 'free' any ascent can ever be. Very unstable weather, high winds, lots of ice and snow around, especially high up. Won't any climb of Cerro Torre involve at least some "French" free, and some "mixed" climbing near the top? The latter is debatably free, the former hardly.

I've never bought Red BS products, and now never will. Nor would I associate with the company or its athletes or products. Not that they care, or that your typical SuperTopian is part of its target markets.

This thread should be good for at least 2,000 posts. And if it's a troll by the Krukster, he better start running now.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:05am PT
Anders,

Did you just come home from the dentist...

There is no feel good result. The advertising campaign after the fact will target the club crowd as an otherworldly escape to aspire to while chasing your Red Bull and Vodka with some Ecstasy. It ain`t just the Red Bull that gives one wings... Climbers, or anyone who cares about the day after were never what this nonsense is about.

Jim
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:07am PT
Sorry, Jim - my indignation and so sarcasm knows no bounds when it comes to this subject. And I was definitely being sarcastic.

I wonder if the government of Argentina, the state government, or the park manager can or would intervene?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:13am PT
yeah, I just posted on Jason's site to see whether he can provide a source for the allegation of an intent to rap bolt a free line in what I perceive to be a ground up area.

If it's already been posted publicly by David, can someone post that up?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:19am PT
Lama (February 2010): I’m sure I’ll return. My goal to freeclimb the Compressor route on Cerro Torre, and the little village El Chalten and its surroundings simply fascinate me.
http://www.david-lama.com/en/news.html?no_cache=1&tx_lamanews_pi2%5Bnewsuid%5D=179&tx_lamanews_pi1%5Bnewsuid%5D=179&tx_lamanews_pi1%5Bnewspage%5D=0

His rebuttal to criticism earlier this year: http://www.david-lama.com/en/news.html?no_cache=1&tx_lamanews_pi2%5Bnewsuid%5D=195&tx_lamanews_pi1%5Bnewsuid%5D=195&tx_lamanews_pi1%5Bnewspage%5D=0

There doesn't seem anything current about his plans or activities on his website - www.david-lama.com
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:28am PT
Wow. Really? And people say routes like Ignorant Bliss and other pseudo-alpine sport abortions have no impact on people's attitudes and thinking. Seems only fitting he leave his drill and batteries hanging on the route since he's decided to don Cesare's mantle. Hard to imagine a more dick thing to do.

Sometimes folks just need to see rap bolting close up and personal:

1740 Stewart Street, Suite 320, Santa Monica, CA 90404

P.S. Note, one could also argue this is natural consequence of not chopping the existing line...
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:35am PT
God I would NEVER have thought of life imitating one of my horrible cartoons. But it seems that this is it.

Please, please, please let this be the worst kind of troll.

And if not, may Herr Lama vanish into a ghastly vat of RedBull.






SHOUT OUT TO Will G !!! Whaddaya think of this now ?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 22, 2011 - 01:31am PT
An article from the Red Bull(shit) website from before Lama's attempt during the 2009 - 10 season. It includes 133 comments, including two recent ones.
http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/A-Snowballs-Chance-in-Hell-021242793048040?refmod=ContentFeed&refmodpos=A2

Nothing else, not even in the "Holy Shit" section.
http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Red-Bull.com/HolyShit/011242745950125
tonesfrommars

Trad climber
California
Jan 22, 2011 - 01:48am PT
chicken sh*t bump.

Keep those comments rolling in to Red Bull folks. Write Lama too, he needs to hear from all of us on this.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 22, 2011 - 03:45am PT
What a limp dick David Lameass is. He syas he can handle the sh#t storm. Well he doesnt know what a real sh#t storm is. But he is going to find out. What a selfish arrogant prig. I would love to be there when Rolo rips him a new one.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Jan 22, 2011 - 04:08am PT
Probably a well organized boycott is in order. How about someone producing some t-shirts that say

"Rap bolts on Cerro Torre are Red Bullshit!"

or something to that effect.

I would buy 20 or so to give away at my climbing gym.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Jan 22, 2011 - 04:20am PT
You can send comments to Red Bull at
http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/ContactUs/Imprint-021242752886059?CategoryName=Adventure+Sports&p=1242745950125

I just sent the following to their Spanish agency:

Hola,
El escalador David Lama esta en Argentina con la intención de escalar Cerro Torre utilizando métodos no acceptados por la gran parte de escaladors. Si hace esto, y si Red Bull ha contribuido suport a Lama, yo colaboraré con esfuerzos de hace un boicot a los productos de Red Bull, en España y internacionalmente.
Sinceramente,
Michael Creel

Hello,
The climber David Lama is in Argentina with the intention of climbing Cerro Torre using methods not accepted by the great majority of climbers. If he does this, and if Red Bull has contributed support to Lama, I will collaborate with efforts to boycott the products of Red Bull, in Spain and internationally.
Sincerely
Michael Creel


(edit)
Lama's Red Bull page is
http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/A-Snowballs-Chance-in-Hell-021242793048040

and you can comment there, too. My contribution was:

This wont make any contribution to the history of climbing, but it will make a contribution to the history of vain, stupid projects. Probably a 19 year old can be cut some slack for not understanding the difference. His corporate sponsors deserve no slack.
Johnny K.

Mountain climber
Southern,California
Jan 22, 2011 - 04:27am PT
Bridwell once said Maestri was a pussy.Perhaps Lama just wants to follow in those steps to become a grand pussy.

Lama is succeeding for the worst style and ethics in climbing history.Following his mentor Maestri.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 22, 2011 - 04:36am PT
Just hit up twitter with:

#redbull #climbing #climber #rockclimbing - David Lama rapbolting Cerro Torre in 2nd round of vertical vandalism - http://win.gs/gU0qvs

And sent messages to everyone Redbull related on linkedin.

The words crusade and jihad come to mind...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jan 22, 2011 - 10:23am PT
I certainly agree with Robbins quote. Sport climbing will continue to cut into traditional climbing territory and practices. Think of all the so-called trad climbs that have every belay anchor bolted, for example, and just imagine the outcry if those bolts were chopped whenever it was possible to use a gear anchor. Oh the horror!

Here is part of the problem. Exactly how big does a crag have to be before rap bolting is not ok? And on the other end, how small? (There was a suitably outraged dust-up on Mountain Project recently about some rap-bolted highball boulder problems next to the trail in RMNP, for example.) Once it is ok on a 100 foot crag, why not a 200 foot crag, a 400 foot crag, a 800 foot crag, a 1600 foot crag, a 3200 foot crag?

It should be clear, at least in retrospect, that the Maestri route should have been chopped as soon as possible. The Lama fiasco really began when people started repeating the Compressor route, even if they thought they were using better "style." Just recognizing it as a route started us down the path that has lead to this moment.

By all means fight the good fight for Cerro Torre. But the real issue is back home, and has to do with what we do on small crags, because the attitudes towards climbing and the populations that become engaged all radiate out from our little rocks.

The Brits have managed to preserve their small climbing environments, and Eastern Europe has too, but the rest of the world, including the U.S., really seems to be headed in a different direction altogether.


survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 22, 2011 - 10:31am PT
Sounds like the back side of Half Dome.....


Gregory Crouch

Social climber
Goleta, California
Jan 22, 2011 - 10:44am PT
That's awful. However, I can't see Rolo taking that sitting down. To arms, Sir Italian Knight!
Disaster Master

Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
Jan 22, 2011 - 11:01am PT
Oh, boy. This is bound to bring out bad behavior on all sides...
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Jan 22, 2011 - 11:11am PT
I hope that other sponsored climbers realize that this guy is crapping in the nest of the goose that laid the golden egg. Sportiva supplies him shoes. I'd really hate to have to quit buying Sportivas, but I'll definitely be looking at other brands if the bolts go in.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jan 22, 2011 - 11:15am PT
Well said, rgold...
altelis

Mountain climber
DC
Jan 22, 2011 - 11:46am PT
as to mcreel's post....RB should definitely get flack. But it's also not surprising that they would either be blind to the real issue here or just wouldn't care.

However, Lama's other sponsors, his climbing sponsors, should certainly be held to a much higher standard.

Let them know as well!

Mammut:
"Our aim is to offer the very best alpine products, assume our social responsibility, including social responsibility towards our partners, and leave behind the best possible ecological footprint. So that future generations can be mountaineers as well." Contact Mammut
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Jan 22, 2011 - 11:47am PT
Has this been linked yet?

http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/cerro-torre-david-lama-and-red-bullshit/
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:15pm PT
I sure like this one from; The great Russian alpinist Pavel Shabalin

//“Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses. And now it finds itself in the same historical situation as is love.

When love was poetry, it was exceptional and sacred. When mass media put love in TV and magazines, it became pornography.”//
Double D

climber
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
Werner...that's classic.
e9climbing.blogspot.com

Mountain climber
Alps (Euro trash )
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
I just got an email from a friend down in El Chalten. The Lama fiasco is on and they are old school aid climbing to put a man on top... Then top roping/rap bolting. What bunch of of f*#king out right idiots.

I mean we all know a few who are partly stupid and even some who are plain stupid but totally (100 per cent) idiots are rare to come a cross.

I would however not be to worried that they can pull this bull sh#t off. There is quite a few down there with ethics and more on the way. A knife and a blade is light weight and fist fights for free.

Looks like great potential for a punch fiesta. Or getting lots of nice gear for free... I guess polluting can be defended if its a nice cut off haul bag...
Reuben

climber
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
"I am upset, and I don't know what to do about it."

Be creative. Come up with a plot bigger and more beautiful, encompassing more of the human experience than just sending a dream line, but that also gently includes that dream in a re-contextualized way: a plot that will included the discrepancies but also resolve them, perhaps something that involves all of you. Then pitch that plot, because they are, after all, making a movie to make money. And what's socially viable is economically viable. Ask Rolo- I don't know, but it seems like it would be like asking the spirit of those mountains itself.
Shiny Nuts

Sport climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
Dear Red Bull,

While I can understand that you'd want to endorse an athlete whose field of expertise falls into the category of "extreme sports," it does you no good to attempt to market a person such as David Lama to anybody who loves the sport of rock climbing. I can assure you that the fiasco he and his crew perpetrated in Argentine Patagonia last season did nothing but arouse anger within everyone who, in the worldwide climbing community, value sustainability and responsibility.

It is with this in mind that I urge you to please curtail Red Bull's sponsorship of David Lama in his attempt to free climb Cerro Torre and, before funding other projects of the type, learn about the type of irreversible environmental impact such endeavors have on a pristine location like Patagonia. Surely you can understand the wrongheadedness of paying to sully the name of Red Bull.
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
If it goes at mid 12 or below, it will be the most popular route on the peak.

French free a crux or two, then fire. People will love it.

Sad, but true. It's how we are.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
Calling Ken Nichols .....
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
It's a drunken tattoo on the most beautiful temple we've found.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jan 22, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
what PTPP said
what PTPP said
Credit: D.Rama

Cerro Torre is situated inside of Los Glaciares National Park. Is it difficult to transport all of your equipment inside of it without breaking any of the laws of the National Park?
"Daniel and myself will be carrying all of our stuff into the park and out again. Transport flights are forbidden, but it’s not in our interest to leave any traces anyway."



Will the project be documented?
"The entire expedition will be documented by a film crew and by a photographer, perhaps even from a helicopter. The crew knows exactly what they are doing and beyond that they will be supported by guides, so that the two of us can concentrate exclusively on climbing."
aleday

Mountain climber
Stateline, NV
Jan 22, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
Will Gadd's provocative and fact-based evaluation of the previous Lama attempt. A good read:

http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2010/07/lama-red-bull-cerro-torre.html
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 22, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
Am posting some links to Rolo's response on what Will Gadd wrote. Also links to a few of Rolo's recent posts on chopping the Red Bull bolts..... just to save time for others trying to figure out what happened, who might not have read this before:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1181099&msg=1223316#msg1223316

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1319502&msg=1319502#msg1319502

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1319502&msg=1375616#msg1375616
alexandre

climber
Copenhagen, Denmark
Jan 22, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
Does that mean that they will rebolt what rolo has chopped already?
ncrockclimber

climber
NC
Jan 22, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
I said something similar in a previous thread, but I think that it is worth repeating. Some places, challenges and mysteries need to remain unchanged and not suitable for mass consumption. Not everything is supposed to be filmed or blogged into submission. If this route as special as the Llama and his guides claim, then maybe they should care less about filming it and more about preserving and respecting it.

I have always believed that the style in which you climb is just as important as whether you succeed or not. If getting to the top is the only goal, then it logically follows that chipping and gluing on holds are acceptable alternatives. Bolting Cerro Torre is just the beginning. The total lack of respect Llama and RedBullshit are showing for an iconic route is beyond contemptible. They are not just breaching our communities values, but they are destroying the rock for future generations. I sincerely hope that someone put's a stop to this.
dave

climber
Earth
Jan 22, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
seems like some 'ol fashioned surf style localism is in order, you and your crew need to pound some respect into the kook and his f@@#ked-up film bullshit

Ya, I agree, f*#k all this and that writing letters and crying sh#t, the locals should NOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN.

Burn their camp down, steal there gear, cut their ropes, beat the shite out of them, make them feel un-welcomed, scared for their lives, follow them everywhere and hassle them endlessly.

That will hold them off for another 4o years at least. And make anyone else who thinks about it, think twice.
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
LOL ^^^^^

Didn't we used to do that here in Yosemite Valley.

And then all these whinny SuperTopo bitches started screaming foul .....

:-)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 22, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
My response on Will Gadd's blog post linked above:



Hmmm. Well, I 'love your work', but taking it from the top of your reasoned and objective assessment of the whole affair, I'd say your analysis bleeds quite a sympathetic bias from the outset. Along the way you appear to be trying to 'calm' the situation by framing it in 'facts' which purport to minimize both the impact and Lama / Red Bull's unfettered intent.

When I hear phrases like these:

"...high production value..."

"...the safety plan..."

"...infrastructure..."

I'm glad to hear you understand they are concepts which are entirely inappropriate on Cerro Torre.

The moment you hear them you can be instantly assured climbing has been relegated to the role of generic sport content in the context of why everyone is there. At that point the decision has been taken to capture x minutes of commercial content. And once a check has been cut the issues endemic to that content - in this case climbing - unavoidably become priorities subsidiary to production and delivery. And besides, bolts are given no framed context in the resulting product from either the public's or Red Bull's perspective so it's no wonder they have a hard time grasping what the problem might be (and that's on David's Red Bull handler).

Then there's AG's statement:

"...or he would not return with the crew..."

At least he makes no bones about his priorities. But he appears to not realize why his presence is so innappropriate - understandable, however, if the production, and not Cerro Torre itself, is the objective and priority of note. And it might just as well be a sound stage if you are so driven, blind or indifferent as to mistake Cerro Torre for just another job site instead of a place revered for its beauty and wildness.

"David Lama had not thought about whether or not the bolts were necessary"

"Lama didn't understand the anger as he didn't put any of the bolts in."

Really? That's a lot like a demur housewife taking out a hit on her husband and later being shocked at the reaction because she had not thought about whether the bullets were necessary, and besides, she didn't pull the trigger - she was too busy in bed with her lover. That you would even post these statements hoping they'd come off as either plausible, innocently naive, or could somehow garner David a 'pass' is pretty weak and lacking a base level of credibility.

"I really don't care much about what the anchors are..."

And neither apparently did David or AG.

"All the spittle on keyboards, reasoned response, and pulpit slamming fundamentalism means nothing when your hands grab the stone."

[That's] also clearly evident in much of today's impressive [commercial] demographic. Climbing is well on it's way to becoming mythically heroic while at the same time insuring we'll all make it home for dinner.

As climbing is successfully mainstreamed into our broader, pop cultural identity the marketing and media demands for continuously 'fresh' content may develop into a fairly rapacious appetite. Where will we draw the line? And when we demand that everywhere be digitally accessible 24x7 will anyone be left standing who even remembers when that line wasn't fixed? I hope so..
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jan 22, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
//“Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses. And now it finds itself in the same historical situation as is love.

When love was poetry, it was exceptional and sacred. When mass media put love in TV and magazines, it became pornography.”//


Werner posted that on the previous page.

I think it needs to be repeated to stand in context with healy's comment in the post above about grabbing the stone.

It DOES matter "how" you "grab the stone".


dustonian

climber
RRG
Jan 22, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
http://www.Colinhaley.blogspot.com/
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 22, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
Colin Haley's Blog entry:

Photo 1: One of the Redbull bolts on the Compressor Route that was removed by Garibotti (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Credit: Port
Photo 2: More Redbull bolts on the Compressor Route (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Credit: Port
Photo 3: The same belay after the bolts were chopped by Garibotti (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Credit: Port
Photo 4: Another of the Redbull bolts above the Col of Patience (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Credit: Port
Photo 5: Some of the Redbull bolts below the Col of Patience, which were supposedly drilled on a separate line - yet are located a few meters from established natural rappel anchors (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Credit: Port
Photo 6: The same bolts after they were chopped by Garibotti (photo by Rolando Garibotti).
Credit: Port


CERRO TORRE, DAVID LAMA AND REDBULL

In 1959, Cesare Maestri attempted to climb Cerro Torre via it's North Face. At some point during the climb, descent, or descent of the glacier below the face, Maestri's climbing partner, Toni Egger, perished. Maestri claimed that they had made the first ascent of Cerro Torre, and the third member of the expedition, Cesarino Fava, either believed Maestri or agreed to lie in agreement with Maestri. Over time, more and more doubts began to surface as to whether Maestri had indeed climbed Cerro Torre. Today it is widely accepted that Maestri made the most famous lie in the history of climbing.

Angered by all the skepticism, Maestri returned to Cerro Torre in 1970. To "prove" that in 1959 he had made the greatest ascent of all time, by an extremely-difficult line on the North Face (that still has not succombed to many attempts over decades, by extremely talented climbers, such as Alexander Huber, Stefan Siegrist, Thomas Ulrich, Toni Ponholzer, Ermanno Salvaterra, etc) in semi-alpine style, he began sieging an easier line on the mountain (the Southeast Ridge) with the help of a large team, thousands of meters of fixed rope, and a gasoline-powered air compressor to drill bolts with ease. On the lower part of the ridge, Maestri refrained from bolting very much (after all, there are tons of perfect granite cracks), but as he gained elevation it seems he lost more and more reason. He began his siege during the winter, and where the ridge-line (which is the natural line, contains good cracks, and was climbed by Ermanno Salvaterra and Mauro Mabboni in 1999) was caked with rime-ice, he decided instead to bolt a traverse across a huge section of blank rock on the right (east) side of the ridge. Higher up, on the headwall, Maestri drilled pitch after pitch of bolt ladders despite many cracks, because the pitons had accidently been forgotten lower on the route. Strangely, Maestri never even attempted to reach Cerro Torre's summit, and instead descended from the highest rock on the headwall. He didn't even allow his climbing partners to join him at his highest belay station. While rappelling the last pitch that he had climbed, Maestri chopped a long section of his bolt ladder. This is now known as the "Bridwell Pitch," re-drilled with rivets by Jim Bridwell when he and Steve Brewer made the first complete ascent of the Compressor Route (and third ascent of Cerro Torre) in 1979.

Maestri's siege of Cerro Torre's Southeast Ridge shocked the climbing world. Although many routes in the Andes, the Himalaya and Alaska have been "dumbed down" by the use of siege tactics, Maestri's ascent was an unprecedented low in terms of style, and remains today the worst example of climbing style the world has ever seen. Although no one knows exactly how many bolts he drilled into one of the world's most beautiful mountains, estimates range from 350 to 450. It was this disaster which Reinhold Messner coined "the murder of the impossible." The Compressor Route remains the most over-bolted and controversial climbing route in the world today. It makes what would otherwise be one of the world's most difficult mountains to summit a fairly easy climb, with so many pitches of A0 bolt ladders.

Since then, there have been many, many ascents of the Compressor Route (which many people recognize as not a true ascent of Cerro Torre), and two films have been made on it. In 1985, Fulvio Mariani created a film called "Cumbre," which contained footage of Marco Pedrini making the first solo ascent of the Compressor Route. "Cumbre" was filmed in alpine style, with only Mariani and Pedrini involved. It is a beautiful climbing film, and well worth watching. In 1992, Werner Herzog filmed "Scream in Stone" on the flanks of Cerro Torre. His expedition sadly fixed ropes on all of the Compressor Route and the Ferrari Route, and left lots of garbage on the Torre Glacier. However, even his large-scale production (with Hollywood actors, crashed helicopters and all) only felt the need to put two bolts in Cerro Torre.

The 2009-2010 season in El Chalten was memorable for two reasons: exceptionally bad weather (even by Patagonian standards), and the assault on Cerro Torre made by David Lama's Redbull-sponsored expedition. David Lama came to El Chalten with the intent of free-climbing Cerro Torre's Southeast Ridge (the "Compressor Route"), and a large crew came along with him with the intent of filming David Lama's ascent. Unfortunately, the expedition acted without much foresight, and began fixing a string of ropes up the Southeast Ridge. Bad weather prevented them from fixing their ropes beyond Maestri's ninety-meter bolt traverse.

In February 2010 David Lama's expedition left Patagonia early, dismayed by the horrendous weather. They did not bother to remove any of the ropes that they had fixed approximately 700 meters up the Compressor Route. More than a month after leaving Patagonia, Redbull hired several Argentine guides, Horacio Graton, Simon Brun, and Juan Raselli, to go remove Redbull's fixed ropes for them. The Argentine guides succeeded in stripping most of the fixed ropes from the route (but were not able to remove all of them), but were not able to carry all of the detritus down from the route, and thus were forced to leave two haulbags full of equipment at the bergshrund.

Much worse, Graton, Brun and Raselli returned to El Chalten with reports that the David Lama / Redbull expedition had placed approximately 30 bolts on the Compressor Route above the Col of Patience. It soon came to light that the Redbull expedition had in fact used a gasoline-powered generator to recharge their power drills - talk about history repeating itself! As news spread, the climbing world was rightly outraged that the David Lama / Redbull expedition had added bolts to what is already the most over-bolted route in the world, and on terrain where not even Cesare Maestri had felt the need to place bolts.

One of the mountain guides that Redbull had hired to fix ropes, Heli Putz, claimed publicly that only 12 bolts had been placed, and that they had been placed off of the normal climbing route. Because the climbing season was already well over when Heli Putz made this claim, it was impossible to verify if it was true or not.

On November 14, 2010, Rolando Garibotti and Doerte Pietron climbed the Compressor Route, and on their way managed to remove 17 of the Redbull bolts above the Col of Patience (but missed 3 more, which they were not able to remove). They discovered that not only had Heli Putz publicly lied about the number of bolts placed, but he had also lied about their location, with all of the new bolts having been placed on the route, many immediately next to established belays and perfect cracks.




On January 9, 2011, Rolando Garibotti, Doerte Pietron and myself, Colin Haley, climbed on the lower slopes of the Compressor Route, and we removed 12 more bolts that Redbull had placed below the shoulder (but we weren't able to remove 2-4 more, which are still in place). In this area, Redbull had claimed that they had bolted an alternate rappel route away from the normal one, but again, all of the new bolts were in close vicinity to established natural anchors.








THE GOOD NEWS:

David Lama and his crew of mountain guides and film makers returned to El Chalten last week, and many of the climbers here were apprehensive of how his expedition would behave this season. Fortunately, they have learned somewhat from their recklessness last season, and this year they have promised that they will not fix any ropes on route (which is good, because besides the obvious fact that fixing ropes is an unimpressive way to climb, the fixed ropes ruin the experience of other climbers on this popular route). They also have promised not to bolt on the established route, and have promised to remove the remaining 5-7 bolts that they left on the route last season. Their plan now is to climb as five people: in front will be a team of three (two mountain guides and one cinematographer), and behind will be David and his climbing partner, Peter. This is a logical way for them to shoot footage of David Lama's efforts to free-climb the route, and an important step forward for them.

THE BAD NEWS:

David Lama plans to bring a small bolt-kit with him, so that he has the option to hand-drill some bolts if necessary. If he adds bolts to the Salvaterra variation it would be totally out of line, as Salvaterra climbed the variation in 1999, and already placed all the necessary bolts (and Josh Wharton and Zack Smith climbed a variation to the variation in 2007, without adding any bolts). It is reasonable, however, that Lama is bringing the bolt kit, because on the headwall they will likely attempt a different line than the blank rock Maestri bolted, and the line they attempt will likely be terrain on which any climber would use bolts. What is not reasonable, however, is the way David Lama plans to use his bolt kit. In a conversation with me, Lama explained that they plan to reach the summit via the normal Compressor Route bolt ladders, and then rappel a separate line of weakness on the headwall, placing protection bolts on rappel. Yes, that's right - rap-bolting the Cerro Torre headwall! I tried to convince Lama that he might place the bolts on lead, hanging from hooks, but he insisted that rap-bolting was his intention. Zack Smith chimed in with, "You know that people will be very upset if you place your bolts on rappel, right?" Lama's response was "I can take it."

Before coming to Patagonia last season, Lama said in a Redbull interview, "Back in the days of old school mountaineering only conquering the peak was important - not so much how this goal was reached. To make it to the top, pitons and even ladders were used. Daniel and I want to make it without any sort of aid." It is ironic then that he doesn't feel capable of establishing the new terrain on lead, and instead plans to rap-bolt it. It is also ironic that Lama is only capable of rap-bolting Cerro Torre's headwall because of the A0 bolt ladders in place on the Compressor Route - To rap-bolt the headwall without the Compressor Route bolt ladders, Lama would have to first climb Cerro Torre by a difficult route or get dropped on the summit by helicopter. It is a shame that Lama lacks the confidence in his skills to attempt his project in clean, alpine style.

When I first heard that Lama's expedition had abandoned plans to fix ropes up the Compressor Route I was very pleased, and indeed even excited for their project. Sadly, these feelings disintegrated when I learned of Lama's plans to bring Cerro Torre down to his level by rap-bolting the headwall. I personally have nothing against rap-bolting at a sport-climbing crag, but I would've hoped that every climber in the world could see the difference between Cerro Torre and a sport crag. This ethical dilemma has nothing to do with differences between North American climbers and European climbers. The ground-up ethic is perhaps even stronger today in Europe than in North America, with many climbing areas strictly allowing only routes established on lead (famous examples being the Ratikon, or the South Face of the Marmolada).

So this, apparently, is the much-anticipated courage and vision of gym climbers applying their skills to the mountains.

nature

climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:22am PT
lol... dave! Werner! but dave you left out one thing.... who's gonna take a dukie on their ropes? that'll learn them...
tonesfrommars

Trad climber
California
Jan 23, 2011 - 03:18am PT
uh, I believe the correct spelling is "dookie" nature. Let's keep the facts straight here.

BUMP!

Lama's testicles should be dropping any day now.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 23, 2011 - 10:40am PT
Wow, that third photo of the bolt right next to the big ass cam hole is amazing.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jan 23, 2011 - 11:34am PT
The problem with taking a dukey on Lama's ropes (i.e., pulling a WoS) is that he'll show up on the Taco all filled with self-righteous indignation where he'll get into a he-said/she-said row with someone who genuinely has a spine. There's history there.

I see that sepia pic of Lama and I just want to clean is clock. S'all.

Wow, that third photo of the bolt right next to the big ass cam hole is amazing.


Hell, you could toss a big-ass nut in there blindfolded and be secure for life.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 23, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Hell, you could toss a big-ass nut in there blindfolded and be secure for life.


True, but he would have no idea what to do with a nut. Hell, he's got sub-men drilling bolts for him on rappel!
Disaster Master

Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
Jan 23, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
One of the chopped rap stations. Close up.
One of the chopped rap stations. Close up.
Credit: Disaster Master

Is this a common anchor set up in Europe? As a "Sport Climber" who has placed a lot of bolts, I would feel safer hanging from multiple equalized cams. The bolts are too close and the single ring always makes me scratch my head when I see similar set ups. (Just a tech. sidebar...)

Are these guides afraid a nest of gear will dislodge? Is that their ultimate excuse in a situation like this?
altelis

Mountain climber
DC
Jan 23, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
The guide's justification is that industry standards call for much higher safety margins than he would use just guiding a client climbing. The extra people and heavy equipment called for bolted anchors.

And he may well have been justified in that reasoning. Same reasoning SAR uses for doing things differently during high-angle rescue than they would if they were just climbing for fun.

However the answer to that problem isn't to go ahead and bolt. The answer is to tell your client (RB/Lama) that you are very sorry, but you cannot take the job. You would be unable to provide the necessary safety margins (because bolting isn't an option).
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 23, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
I think you mean "your" answer to the "issue". Guy stated he was going up with a hand-drill and looking around on rappel. BFD. How long has the compressor route been there and its not been chopped?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
BFD. How long has the compressor route been there and its not been chopped?

If you think the compressor route should be the standard style for the region, then this problem is even larger then I thought. Its fascinating that when an individual decides to degrade the local style standards, the consequence reverberates through time and eventually people begin to think that its OK or anyone to climb that way.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses. And now it finds itself in the same historical situation as is love.

When love was poetry, it was exceptional and sacred. When mass media put love in TV and magazines, it became pornography.

I don't know if writing in a non-native language had something to do with this, or if it is actually a translation, but however it arrived at its present form, I find the first sentence obnoxious, wrong-headed, and almost guaranteed to be counter-productive.

The message is that we have to keep this pure and "sacred" activity away from the dirty masses who will cheapen and degrade it. Part of what may be a lack of linguistic sophistication is involved because masses seems to be used in two ways here, first as a way of referring to, well, to people, and secondly as part of a reference to mass media.

Now its not as if I totally disagree with the sentiments expressed, especially in the second sentence. I do think that sport climbing's tendency to spill over its boundaries threatens to degrade traditional climbing, and that those who value the experiences associated with traditional climbing will have to fight an ongoing rearguard action for them.

Moreover, it is clear that misguided projects such as Lama's can only be brought to fruition with the monetary support of commercial interests whose primary goal is to sell a product unrelated to the activity they are supporting, and this confluence of overweening desire and commercial interest is what produces pornography in the climbing world.

But, to blame all this on "the masses" turns away from the real issues and embraces a fallacious counterproductive concept of elitism that, if it had any truth at all, could only hasten the demise of the traditional ethic. If traditional climbing's only recourse is an appeal to exceptionalism, then it is truly doomed to extinction.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
So the whole thing boils down to whether he bolts it on rap or not? Because you guys think the bolts should be drilled hanging from hooks instead of hanging from the rope? Hahaha


You can climb at your crag how ever you please, but when you travel to a foreign region its your responsibility to adhere to the local style, even if you might not fully understand it. I don't understand whats funny about this. And if you think that the compressor route is the local style then you're of f*#king idiot.

WBraun

climber
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses.

Rgold, they way I "saw" this statement is unless one has actual physical experience in "Alpinism" one would really have no real clue.

Just as this "LEB" person, for practical example, has no such clue either, except for some mental hallucinations she experiences. :-)

That's all it is and no real elitism in that ...
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
"If you think the compressor route should be the standard style for the region, then this problem is even larger then I thought."

Never said that. But don't let me stop you from getting your panties all bunched up.
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
Does the guy really think that hanging on a rope to drill is less aid than hook-drilling? He said he wanted to do it free so that's why he's thinking of rap-bolting.
It would be awesome to see a route go up there in the style of the Bachar/Yerian.
I assume power tools are in use there? Don't think you'd see many bolts next to A1 cracks otherwise...but then again there are examples of that in Yosemite.
The Red Bull demographic doesn't care one way or the other, even the rappelling would be exciting to them.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Jan 23, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
Well, none of the "locals" removed it, did they? 30 plus years, right?
Hmmm.
(Just playing devil's advocate)
semicontinuous

Gym climber
Sweden
Jan 23, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
While I think rap-bolting Cerro Torre is boorish in the extreme, I fail to see any difference between that and Tommy Caldwell's top-roping and rap-bolting antics on Dawn-Wall.
e9climbing.blogspot.com

Mountain climber
Alps (Euro trash )
Jan 23, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
Climb ground up leave as little sh#t as possible after you. Don't trash a line to please your own personal ego if you know it can or will be done in a better style. Listening to this its like Hey I'm bolting this line and I will try it for the next 5 years. Lets see if I send... Well keep that sh#t to the sport crags.

This rap bolting is so f*#ked up and has nothing to do with climbing mountains like Cerro Torre. That kind climbing has other areas lacking development. If Lama wants a new a play ground play by the "rules".
tonesfrommars

Trad climber
California
Jan 23, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
Because you guys think the bolts should be drilled hanging from hooks instead of hanging from the rope? Hahaha

Is there a difference? yes. Bolting from a rap is trivial. the mechanics of ASCENDING the natural features plays no part. Bolting from stance or hook requires that you have to be able to GET THERE and also may involve some degree of exposure/risk.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 23, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
Bolting from below will inevitably involve unnecessary bolt/rivet ladders, whereas rap bolting avoids placing extra, unnecessary bolts

I'm not sure that this is even true on Cerro Torre. And Lama's concern for leaving gear is minimal (look at the pictures). Rap bolting generally leads to poorly located bolts and an over abundance of them....And that's ignoring the issues of style that are involved.

Lama can do what ever the hell he wants in Europe, just as long as he doesn't apply it whereever he would like


Credit: Port

dave

climber
Earth
Jan 23, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Well I dont know much about much...but... isn't that snow shroom' on top kind of the natural barrier (ie. un-consolidated sugary snow?)that gives lots of folks some trouble?

Cuz if so then howz' he gonna get a suitable anchor to begin his Rap Bolt festival, drill one right under the thing where some people have already forgone the summit before? What do people currently use there to bail from?

Who are his 'guides'? I dont remember anything in my training or 12 years of guiding rock climbing that says you have to use bolted anchors when loads exceed blah, blah ,blah. those cracks can take 50 cams if need be, and who knows how many stoppers, and hexes and tri-cams.

Seems the guides may have some answering to do as well! Where is their professionalism, their mountain sense and knowledge of LNT practices?

Strangely enough the European guides have a much higher standard of climbing ability...difference is its measured at the sport crag and not on "traditionally" protected rock climbs!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 23, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
Are you really going to rehash the whole 'Growing Up' thread in the context of Cerro Torre? Pretty pitiful if you can't
recognize and understand why what Lama is doing is so inappropriate. On the other hand, it's always been obvious and
inevitable that if Maestri's line wasn't chopped someone would eventually try to complete it given the way climbing has
gone in the intervening years.

From my perspective Lama is just a perverse form of validation for Maestri's intent, approach and desperation.
The latter in the form of what both's 'careers' stood to gain from the attending media exposure. In the end
this isn't so much a death, as an 'Embarrassment of the Impossible'. Were Maestri dead, I'd have said it gave
reincarnation a bad name; as it is, it's just the passing of a torch that went out forty years ago.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Jan 23, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
do you think he will do one of those "No Fear" sideways handstand kind of things when he gets on top and then base jump to the bottom and then drop in to Sean White's new super secret half pipe and then flutag and then

































































puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!



















































aaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrrr






































































In the words of Ashton Kuetcher in Harold and Khumar do Whitecastle while at the Chinese drive through.

NO MORE AND THEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
Mike, that was a waste of electrons. Do you have anything of value to add?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 23, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
It should have been chopped to prevent idiots from taking the perspective that you have adopted. And if you think that respected members of the climbing community think its ok to rap bolt Cerro Torre, please list them. I'd love to know.


It happened once, so it must be ok!
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Jan 23, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
now would be a really good time to chop the compressor route.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 24, 2011 - 12:01am PT
The Fitzroy/Cerro Torre Massif has become a Southern Hemisphere version of Chamonix. I am so glad to have been able to enjoy the area in the pre El Chalten days- RIP.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 24, 2011 - 12:03am PT
hedge,

Take for example the Jardine Traverse. El cap was chopped with a chisel for christ sake, and many respectable climbers have since climbed the Nose using this traverse. Does that mean they all think it was ok to chisel a route into El Cap? Of course not. I bet you cant find a single climber who says that the Jardine traverse should exist in the first place.

The compressor route is a travesty whose legacy is being continued by David Lama.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 24, 2011 - 12:06am PT
Now linked from the Alpinist FaceBook site, with the irreverent heading "Climbing Gossip on Supertopo/Lama Again".
http://www.facebook.com/update_security_info.php?wizard=1#!/Alpinist
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 24, 2011 - 12:43am PT
Thanks Joseph !

"Embarrassment of the impossible"...

That was sublime, something Oscar Wilde would have wished he'd said.

Jim
hoipolloi

climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
Jan 24, 2011 - 03:07am PT
David Lama promotion manager contact information, complete with cell phone and Email.

http://www.david-lama.com/en/servicenavigation/kontakt.html


Mammut is one of his main sponsors, they should be written and informed.
gf

climber
Jan 24, 2011 - 08:17am PT
I suggest writing mammut and cc'ing customers mec and rei pointing out to them that the actions of messrs lama et al are not in line with the values of any of their organizations.
To date i have written red bull and the commercial agent of mr lama pointing out that mr lamas' actions may have less than positive commercial impact.

gf
norm larson

climber
wilson, wyoming
Jan 24, 2011 - 08:29am PT
I agree with Jim. It's pitiful what has happened to this absolutely amazing area since Chalten grew out of the ground. It went from being the unknown bottom of the Earth where true adventure was still possible to the center of cyber arguments of some wanker rap bolting a variation to a via-ferrata! The world has truly shrunk, like a cold scrotum.
tinker b

climber
the commonwealth
Jan 24, 2011 - 08:50am PT

so this is the link i found for contacting mammut, i don't know if anyone has a better one.


http://www.mammut.ch/en/apps/contact.html


good luck to colin and the rest of the folks down there. i am hoping that they can use their intelligence, humor, good looks, whatever to make david lama realize that rap bolting, over bolting, leaving fixed lines, climbing for publicity, ect is a really dumb idea. we all did stupid sh#t when we were twenty. it's best to not have things with such dire lasting consequences that will be known internationally a result of such mistakes.

it will suck for the next sixty years to have every mountaineer that meets you say "oh your david lama, the dumb sh#t who rap bolted cerro torre? what were you thinking?"
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Jan 24, 2011 - 08:56am PT
Word, tinker b.
I'd hate to have that hangin' over me. Yeesh.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 24, 2011 - 09:54am PT
Here's Red Bull(sh*t)'s response to my latest complaint email to them. This is from Susanne Degn, a producer at RB.


Dear Terry,

after further discussing with our production crew I want to point out that we see David Lama's attempt to free climb the compressor route as historic
and feel the obligation to document this attempt in an authentic, unique and outstanding production.

As originally planned we had the entire shoulder and wall cleaned of our and older fixed ropes by local mountain guides who have worked with us
throughout the entire project. Only one haul bag with climbing equipment remained on the mountain. The exact number of bolts placed by the production
crew was 30 as communicated earlier and outlined in the enclosed topography.

For the completion of the project we will refrain from using further bolts and remove the existing ones as part of this years attempt.
The planned documentary shall witness David's undertaking rather than stand in its way.


All the best,
Susanne


Credit: Red Bull
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 24, 2011 - 10:56am PT
the kid
stupid is as stupid does.
rap bolting cerror torre is just so gay..
f*#k that kid..

i really appreciate what you have done for climbing....so don't get me wrong.....

but am i the only one who sees the irony in your statements?

how many routes have you rap-bolted?

i get the difference between some choss and cerro torre, i am just wondering....
ncrockclimber

climber
NC
Jan 24, 2011 - 10:58am PT
Here's Red Bull(sh*t)'s response to my latest complaint email to them. This is from Susanne Degn, a producer at RB.


Dear Terry,

after further discussing with our production crew I want to point out that we see David Lama's attempt to free climb the compressor route as historic and feel the obligation to document this attempt in an authentic, unique and outstanding production.

As originally planned we had the entire shoulder and wall cleaned of our and older fixed ropes by local mountain guides who have worked with us throughout the entire project. Only one haul bag with climbing equipment remained on the mountain. The exact number of bolts placed by the production crew was 30 as communicated earlier and outlined in the enclosed topography.

For the completion of the project we will refrain from using further bolts and remove the existing ones as part of this years attempt.
The planned documentary shall witness David's undertaking rather than stand in its way.


All the best,
Susanne

Ummm... how does rap bolting a climb = "we will refrain from using further bolts"?

This type of PR bullshit is infuriating to me. If there weren't enough wrong with what Lama is doing, we now have RedBullshit flat-out lying about it.

At 20, most of us were young and stupid. I know I was. Lama get's some understanding from me for his behavior. I am sure that he is surrounded by "yes-men" and handlers that are telling him that he is great, and that he doesn't fully understand the issues. That does not excuse his actions. In the end we are all responsible for what we do and Lama is responsible for this fiasco. None of this would be happening if it was not for him, and it is well within his power to mandate a different method for recording this ascent. Instead, he displays NO respect for the accepted ethics of the local climbing community or the larger global community of alpinists. And then there is his total disregard for LNT. You don't even have to include the new bolts in this part of the conversation. That Lama could give a f*#k about his impact is unfortunately just too obvious. Apparently, cleaning up your own trash and being considerate of others is something only mere mortals need to do.

I will probably never climb Cerro Torre. (saying "probably" is probably not accurate. I actually have a snowballs chance in hell of climbing Cerro Torre!) However, I like the fact that it is there. I like knowing that there is a test-piece on which the strongest and boldest members of our community can push the limits of what is possible. To my mind rap-bloting this iconic spire is akin to running a 3 minute mile with a jet pack; it just doesn't count. That a multi-national brand driven corp is funding this fiasco and misrepresenting it as groundbreaking is sadly indicative of a society that places the end above the means and lacks the understanding to differentiate between hype and substance.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 24, 2011 - 11:21am PT
we see David Lama's attempt to free climb the compressor route as historic

HUH? Exactly what is "historic" about this?
Does Red Bullshit even know the history?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 24, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
I like knowing that there is a test-piece on which the strongest and boldest members of our community can push the limits of what is possible.

a test piece first completed by hauling a big ass compressor up there which placed the bolts for cerro torre to even be ascended by most of the climbers who have managed it....irony?

funny how we have accepted one travesty already on that great mountain....
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Jan 24, 2011 - 12:45pm PT
Un real but seems to me that this solved by the park pullling the permit and then escorting them out of the park.

Red Bull is apparently not giving one crap about the general opinion of the climbing community, and how this is being done.'

I will forward this again to RedBull USA and see what happens. I suspect our best bet is for some very bad weather to put an end to this.

ncrockclimber

climber
NC
Jan 24, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
Hawkeye, It was not my intention to condone the first bolt ladder. The original line and Lama's plan (from what I have read) are both f*#ked-up.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jan 24, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
What it really boils down to in my mind...

Doesn't matter if its the world's crappiest local crag or Cerro Torre... it's lame to bring it down to your level.
Disaster Master

Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
Jan 24, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
Hawkeye


climber
State of Mine Jan 24, 2011 - 07:56am PT
the kid
stupid is as stupid does.
rap bolting cerror torre is just so gay..
f*#k that kid..

i really appreciate what you have done for climbing....so don't get me wrong.....

but am i the only one who sees the irony in your statements?

how many routes have you rap-bolted?

i get the difference between some choss and cerro torre, i am just wondering....

It is individuals like "the Kid" who you should be listening to now. Few have the history and practice placing routes in all styles than he and other first ascentionists. This does not be-little his oppinion. It gives it weight.



http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1276301&msg=1276911#msg1276911

And..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12fg5BLANTE
Morgan_H

Trad climber
Seattle
Jan 24, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
Here's a good description of the history & current events:

http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011/01/cerro-torre-david-lama-and-redbull.html

Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Jan 24, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
Is it wrong to suggest sabotage or threats?

Seems like it was the norm BITD.

Is our current society too concerned with litigation to take action?

If it's a travesty (I think so), then the parties concerned who are local need to take a stand, rather than bitching about it while in fear of losing a sponsorship or having to cut their trips short.

Where's the balls these days?

Cut out the PC bullshit and get your point across. Don't hurt anyone, but get your damn point across.

Rolo has.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Jan 24, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
Stinkeye nails it.

we demand that Redbull require him to only drill on lead.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah!

I wish they had a web cam on the Red Bull marketing grunt in charge of reading internet complaint letters - every 5 minutes he shouts out,

'Laughin it up here Boss!'

DMT
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Jan 24, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
Philo, sorry for poor use of electrons but I just get sick of everyone trying to make money off of these kind of things. Maybe it is just jelousy that I can't or haven't done the same but I have been at it for about 20 years and keep climbing because I like it. Not because I get free stuff(I don't) or do the coolest climbs(I don't) I just like it. It seems that this young mam and a lot others like him think climbing should be a way to make a living, what happened to climbing because you like it. It seems at times that those making the most noise in our little section of the world are the people that those outside our world think are running things and many of the loudest people seem to have the poorest ethics. Makes me throw up in my mouth a little. Mike
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 24, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
they ought to crap on their ropes so that it can yield an infinite number of "shitty" threads for the future generations to argue about....

disaster, a lot of people have done routes in different styles and i was not downplaying the kids significance nor contributions....the question is?

was some sport climbing choss a gateway drug for cerro torre? sounds to me like it is....
michaeld

Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
Jan 24, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
What are the ratings on the route to free climb it?

I think he needs to grow some balls and run it out. The next thing this kid is gonna do is rap bolt Southern Belle and bolt ladder it, and claim ascent.
highcamp

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 24, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
Created an online petition to ask Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

http://www.change.org/petitions/view/tell_david_lamas_sponsors_to_stop_their_support_of_his_bolting_actions_on_cerro_torre
Andrew F

Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
Jan 24, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
Thanks highcamp. Signed the petition.
gf

climber
Jan 24, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
signed
i have also posted on the mammut fb and sent an email to mr lamas' agent
highcamp

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 24, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
Regarding the petition, if any of you are on other climbing sites as well (especially EU, UK and USA ones), maybe start a thread there and post the link. Here's a shortened link for tweets etc:

http://bit.ly/foXVJd
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 24, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
signed
tonesfrommars

Trad climber
California
Jan 24, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
petition bump
JBC

Trad climber
Tacoma, WA
Jan 24, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
Signed & posted on my Facebook account.

Jim
dave

climber
Earth
Jan 24, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
signed, and re-itirate that the locals should just phuck beat those guys and send them home crying.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 25, 2011 - 12:32am PT
Signed and linked on FB and MountainProject.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
Back in the Gunks for the winter
Jan 25, 2011 - 12:36am PT
signed and linked on FB
MH2

climber
Jan 25, 2011 - 01:31am PT
Whew! It was hard to resist saving the bees, too, but didn't really have time for them.

Had to tighten the message a little, make sure the tone was respectful, but laser-sharp that this is the wrong way to climb Cerro Torre and maybe a mistake for Red Bull to put their brand behind.

Thanks for the petition.

Burt

Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
Jan 25, 2011 - 02:03am PT
+1 ^^^^ thank you Coz lets not forget what happened just in our own valley let alone down south...
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 25, 2011 - 03:02am PT
http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/cerro_torre_controversy_rears_up_again/

Credit: Port

photo by Andrew Tower
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jan 25, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
I'm with you coz and many others here.
This really takes being a straight up pussy to new levels..
too many bolts, too many $$$ and hype now riding on all athletes of today.
I'm glad i got it when it was still a fun game to play each day..



kurt smith
WBraun

climber
Jan 25, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
I wouldn't call him a pussy, you know him?
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Jan 25, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
We tried and failed, something young climbers seem unwilling to do.

I've never climbed anything of that scale, but Coz is onto something. It's the failure in climbing that pushed it to the level it's at. Without failure we have complacency. Dumbing it down to a certain level dumbs down the whole sport.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 25, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
Right on Coz!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 25, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
Rap bolting is form of aid. Sorry
norm larson

climber
wilson, wyoming
Jan 25, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
Coz has it right. That IS the point that is the concern, not just for the Torre..
highcamp

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 25, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
It's been a day since the petition went up, so I thought I'd post some of the stats from the bit.ly link in case any of you are interested.

# of people who have signed the petition so far: 314
# of people who have clicked thru the bit.ly link: 353

Traffic by location:
Credit: highcamp

Traffic by referrer:
Credit: highcamp


Again, the above is just for the shortened bit.ly link - full URL links have had a lot of click-thru as well, as have 'share' links on facebook.

http://bit.ly/foXVJd

michaeld

Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
Jan 25, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
Signed and whored out on my FB.
rolo

climber
Jan 26, 2011 - 04:03am PT
the petition is great. signed it. thanks.

I agree with Coz that it is a wider discussion.

for the time being Cerro Torre is ensuring that David wont get anywhere close to it. yesterday the weather was perfect but the upper half of the peak was as white as can be, with a nice thick veil of frost all over it.

The director and the head rigger came by my house a few days ago and compromised themselves to move forward in a completely different way, as described in Colin's blog. One of them I have know for some years and I will take his word for it. Heli Putz was not invited back. The rap bolting plan is David's thing and has nothing to do with them as far as I can understand. I was pretty psyched about this change of attitude by the film crew, it is a good positive step, no doubt the result in part of each and every entry in this forum. Thanks a bunch for all that support which is very much needed and appreciated.






Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 26, 2011 - 04:37am PT
for the time being Cerro Torre is ensuring that David wont get anywhere close to it. yesterday the weather was perfect but the upper half of the peak was as white as can be, with a nice thick veil of frost all over it.

The Patagonian weather is a huge bonus in that it will keep the faint of heart from ever getting close. My hope is that Lama gives up after repeated attempts at this "project" of his.

Props to Tami for her cartoon!
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jan 26, 2011 - 09:33am PT
signed
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 26, 2011 - 10:44am PT
I'm sorry. It is important to remain somber and adult when dealing with these kinds of conflicts.
When one sinks into adolescent jibes and name calling little is likely to be resolved, and we devolve into yet another example of humans who cannot see the value in disagreeing peacefully.





But,............... Heli Putz?????

BWAHAHAHA!
You gotta be kidding me!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 26, 2011 - 11:19am PT
Signed
Johnny K.

Mountain climber
Southern,California
Jan 26, 2011 - 11:22am PT
I wonder if David Lama ever got an ass beating growing up.I feel sorry for the little guy who thinks he is such a badass.
Buju

Big Wall climber
the range of light
Jan 26, 2011 - 11:38am PT
signed
TMO

Trad climber
Puyallup, WA
Jan 26, 2011 - 11:50am PT
Signed.... but wishing it was a petition to Colin Haley to whoop his @ss!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 26, 2011 - 11:54am PT
I'll be there in a few weeks - I could deliver the petition and/or the beatdown.
And I don't think he is a pussy either. He's a whore - which
isn't meant to denigrate honest sex-workers.
nature

climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
Jan 26, 2011 - 11:59am PT
signed
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 26, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Signed, but me thinks 500 signatures won't sway Pit Bull much....




And I don't think he is a pussy either. He's a whore - which
isn't meant to denigrate honest sex-workers.


Feckin' Reilly, THAT is worth repeating!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 26, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
He may not be a pussy but his tactics sure are.

Reilly thanks for that clarification. Don't want to denigrate the oldest profession.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jan 26, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
All this signing spew will only make Red Bull resolute.

They suck up this kind of publicity like a spooge rag after a gay orgy.
lemonviolence

Trad climber
Monrovia, CA
Jan 26, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
Signed.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Jan 26, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
Signed
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 26, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
All this signing spew will only make Red Bull resolute

Perhaps, but it may have a more serious effect on Mammut. This is a company that has been involved in climbing since before David Lama's parents were born, and presumably has some understanding of what is going on, and what its continued sponsorship of young Mr. Lama will mean.

Red Bull has no real history with the climbing community, and may or may not care. Will Gadd has been working with them recently, and says they do care, so maybe the noise we and others make will have an impact on them. Certainly sitting silent will not have any impact.

D
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jan 26, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
Rolo,
Nice work on getting the camera guys to listen to reason.. keep up the effort and use logic over the absurdity of it all.
can we have just a few places left where adventure and wild are one in the same?
kurt
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 26, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
^^^^ +1 ^^^^^
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 26, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
Just corresponded with another Red Bull sponsored athlete.

He thinks this is a Lama problem and that Red Bull is pretty good about "getting it".






Perhaps it is fair to give them an opportunity to make amends?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 26, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
so much vitriol....was it ok to rapp bolt half dome? or were you guys quiet then because you knew the players?

just curious. seems all pretty hypocritical to me. some of you were probably bitchin when those guys were going up to remove the bolts, remember that one? it led to a physical altercation too...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 26, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
Perhaps it is fair to give them an opportunity to make amends?

For the first aborted attempt or the upcomming abortion?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 26, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
Sorry I don't think there is a real comparison between Half Dome and Cerro Torre.

And I for one have always wanted the Compressor route chopped.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 26, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
Red Bull(shit) is selling the image of climbing - not climbing. Probably less than 0.1% of its sales are to climbers, or indeed to persons who participate in 'active' outdoor challenges.

The general Red Bull(shit) consuming public may simply not know or care, or indeed may find the controversy attractive.

Lame-a's other sponsors may be more susceptible to climber feedback.

Edit: Signed petition.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 26, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
Excellent point MH, he is likely to have a web page or blog with his sponsors listed. The climbing oriented ones would be far more likely to respond to climber's concerns.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 26, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
Courtesy of David D.


a link to the "guestbook" on his site...

http://www.david-lama.com/en/servicenavigation/gaestebuch.html

and his "contact" information for his "Promotion"

http://www.david-lama.com/en/servicenavigation/kontakt.html
highcamp

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 26, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
The online petition automatically sends emails to each of Lama's corporate sponsors for each person that signs the petition. So as of right now, each sponsor has received 661 emails. You can amend the text of the message template if you wish so it better reflects what you want to convey. If you'd rather send emails directly without becoming a part of the petition, here are the addresses:

rschmid@mammut.ch (CEO of Mammut)
lasportiva@lasportiva.com (La Sportiva Italy)
peter.reinthaler@cni.at (Lama's promotions guy)
info@redbull.com (Red Bull corporate)
info@at.redbullmediahouse.com (Red Bull's media arm)

For those still wanting to sign the petition, here's the link again: http://bit.ly/foXVJd

P.Kingsbury

Trad climber
the jeep
Jan 26, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
Thanks for the link.

Signed it.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Jan 26, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
signed- don't think it will do much good it's all about fame/fortune. You think redbull really gives a sh#t? look at the crap they peddle
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 26, 2011 - 08:54pm PT
Didn't Rohrer rap bolt El Cap ?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 26, 2011 - 08:56pm PT
A descent route on the Nose. His account:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=596264

http://www.supertopo.com/topos/obscurities/RohrerRapBook.pdf
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jan 26, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
Elaborate on this, Joe.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jan 27, 2011 - 08:42am PT
Jhedge,
bolts in the right spots and a minimum amount is a good idea.
taking a very proud mountain with an already controversial line and turning it into another gym climb is not the best approach when climbing in wild places. yes there are existing bolts, yes many many people have used these bolts for the last couple of pitches..
but..
placing bolts next to perfect cracks, adding more bolts to an already over bolted line, top roping it and filming it for $$$ and the bright life is not the answer. this is De-Evolution of climbing. this is not meeting the mountain on its terms but those of a young kid wanting glory and $$.
if he was into it for the adventure he would be there with just his partner and no film crew and mtn guides.
mtn guides for a sponsored athlete is like tiger woods taking golf lessons before the pga championship..kinda ghey in my opinion.
as one who has rap bolted many lines and done many from the ground up, i know enough is enough..
are there no more sacred places to man up to and climb with bold style? or do we dumb down all routes, all mountains, all climbs? i for one say no..

signed the petition and posted it on FB for all to see..

lame is as lame does......
kurt
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Jan 27, 2011 - 08:51am PT
I have not signed it. I just don't feel qualified to tell people some 7000 miles away how to climb, particularly to a place I have never been. I do not extend that reservation to others, its just me. I completely respect the opinions posted or otherwise. I don't drink red bull either, I detest that stuff.

I think the compressor route is historical in the same way the cable route on half dome is - and should be left alone. I would hate to see the lama stuff lead to the elimination of compressor. Hope it all works out.

DMT
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2011 - 09:39am PT
The Compressor route should be chopped!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Jan 27, 2011 - 09:51am PT
I do not agree!

DMT
E Robinson

climber
Salinas, CA
Jan 27, 2011 - 09:57am PT
Boycott Redbull
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2011 - 10:04am PT
That's cool Dingus, we don't need to agree. We are adults and individuals capable of civil disagreement.



Why doesn't Lame-ass just get helicoptered to the summit. Then he can rap bolt, pre-hang draws, pre-inspect and rehearse the moves without the messy need to AID the route in the first place.
Then he can be a hero in his own mind. Some Mountains should not be subdued by every artificial means in the egotist arsenal.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Jan 27, 2011 - 10:06am PT
Yep Philo, we agree to disagree and I have nothing but respect for your thoughts on the matter.

My buddy gave me a book to read - "Near Death in the Mountains" a collection of stories about, well, hehe. Not my usual cup of tea, these kinds of survival stories books, but it was free.

Anyway, one of the articles in there is by Walter Bonati about his solo ascent of the SW Pillar of the Dru. The article is titled 'The Mountains of My Life" and is probably condensed from his biography.

In the article he explains his thoughts on the ethics behind his style of climbing.

He went after the Dru with gear essentially from the 30s and eschewed the use of bolts (spits, he calls them) entirely. In his article he explains why. Those thoughts of his surely helped to form the bedrock of the 'murder of the impossible' reasoning Messner and others promoted.

He gos to great lengths to describe his personal ethics as personal. He doesn't extend them to others, even as he criticizes methods he feels are out of bounds. At once he encourages others to adopt his approach but he doesn't come across as someone who would go chop someone else's route or impose his will through blunt force.

I don't know what he thinks of the Compressor route though.

Cheers
DMT
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2011 - 11:47am PT
Dingus, I respect your thoughts on this as well. Climbing is an inherently personal matter. The imposition of style and ethics is a tricky business. Few of us wants to be told how, what, where, when and with who we can climb. I would argue that the acceptance of particular ethics or styles have benefited the climbing community and climbing continuum tremendously over the years. The general adoption of "Clean Climbing" comes to mind. As an ethic it certainly was not forced or imposed on climbers just highly advised. The acceptance of "Clean Climbing", I am sure you would agree, has absolutely benefitted us all and the medium of our ascent as well. I am sure most climbers would agree that when you visit another area it is in everyone's best interests to follow the local customs, style and ethics. A case of "when in Rome..." if you will.

I come from a background of "ground up" "best or better style" climbing, with a fair bit of Erickson's "no tainting" thrown in. That is my ethics of ascent and I don't try to impose them on anyone I don't climb with. I believe we all need to choose for ourselves how we approach our climbing. But I firmly believe our approach should be tempered to the histories and sensitivities of where we intend to climb. Just because past abominations seem to have been accepted by subsequent ascents (the Compressor Route, the Jardine Traverse and the Stratosfear route just to name a few) does not justify future transgressions.

There are mountains and areas I have always felt should remain as untainted as possible. Just because it is too late your Yosemite does not mean we should sacrifice everywhere. It is my strong belief that places like Patagonia and Antarctica and others should be left for the boldest and strongest among us to make the grandest statements of human achievement possible.
Just because modern technology makes it possible to be deposited on any summit anywhere doesn't mean we should reduce all climbs to the lowest common denominators.

If the plan to rap bolt Cerro Torre takes place it will unequivocally and permanently diminish us all.

At least in my pathetically humble opinion.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 27, 2011 - 11:54am PT
Philo, I couldn't agree with you more. I just returned from Patagonia where I was able to explore pristine, never before visited, areas near the North Patagonia Ice Cap. Today's emphasis on establishing the highest technical difficulty regardless of the means seems so remote, to me, from the spirit of exploration that got me and many others into climbing. Spending the rest of my climbing life poking my nose into some of the last remaining unexplored crannies on our beautiful planet will serve me just fine.

edit: I hesitate to promote my finds in the interest of preserving them.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Jan 27, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Cool Philo. I totally respect the stern approach you take.

For me, with a much less rigid framework of ethics combined with a lot of pondering about how disparate climbing protection styles can co-exist, I have always favored the "locals decide" principle. And as such, Patagonia feels totally off route to this punter who have never laid eyes on it. That's just me bro. I wouldn't presume to tell Coz or DR how to climb either. And I wouldn't be receptive to them telling me how do to things in my areas of influence.

The red bull gambit may work, quien sabe? But that dog is gonna bite back at some point and some of those leveling criticism will in turn find themselves criticized from half a globe away by people who have never so much as laid eyes on their routes. The karma tea they drink that day may prove bitter indeed.

Anyway, as with you, I don't extend my personal views to others. I don't expect you to see it my way any more than you expect me to toe to your line exactly. Its nice to take the time to explain it though.

As odd as this sounds, when Thesenga lit the white gas on Intersection Rock I was part of the internet howl that got him fired. I am ashamed of myself, to this day, for my part in that witch hunt, however minor. I have been reluctant to take long range pot shots at someone else's job ever since. Without local knowledge I am picking sides based upon... what exactly?

Cheers
DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Jan 27, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
I hesitate to promote my finds in the interest of preserving them.

Smart thinking. Its not the doing of these routes that causes the uproar and subsequent impact of the commons. Its the crowing about it. :-)

Respect,
DMT
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Jan 27, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
I think if he was bolting on lead, even with a bosch if it was legal, that most people on this forum would not object too heavily and this probably happens a fair bit on high scale new big wall free routes on big peaks. That being said bolting on lead and hand drilling greatly limits the amount iron you can practically put in.

Also at issue is bolting next to good trad placements and the scale it was undertaken for the sake of the "the film" that they are claiming that we the climbing community are going to enjoy so much that we should be paying him to do it. For an example I would think the bolts added to the Salathe on the FFA are probably minimal compared to what was done on Cerro Torre and mostly at belays(correct me if I'm wrong). As I have watched big wall free climbing evolve at least through the media(I have not climbed in CA much, patagonia none, and zero big wall free climbs)it seems that today's big wall free climbers are getting kudos for being bold.

It sounds as if a lot of these projects add a bolt or two near the route or replace old bolts, but certainly not next to good trad placements or on the scale undertaken by Lama and crew. Most of these climbers that are being touted at least stateside seem to be willing to run it out big time before they are forced to drill and they are being touted for placing as minimal fixed gear as possible. It is happening on the same scale where I live but the walls are just much smaller. At what point do we realize that showing you are brave and bold is just as laudable of a characteristic as being a "strong" climber.

I may only do bold routes that are under 5.10(sometimes way under 5.10) but I am still doing them and there is a satisfaction that would not be there when I do a similar route that has bolts every 5 feet. One last thing I am not anti bolting or even rap bolting, but I think our grandest cathedrals and the places that have drawn best and boldest climbers to them for a century or more are the palces where the older more conservative values should still stay in place.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jan 27, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
I'm with Philo and Donini on this..
do we have to beat every mountain and rock into submission?
Or to quote BAchar: to bring it down to our level?

no one including me wants to be told what to do, what makes a climber/man/human different is their ability to know when they are doing the right thing, and to know when it is wrong..

were we right or wrong on the Muir wall back in 1994? only answer i have is we did it in the ground up style with the emphasis of least amount of bolts (by power yes) and added no new bolts to Muir line..also replaced countless worthless belay bolts.. was it right to use power drill? no but that is the tool we choose in the best style of the day..

kurt
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 27, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
Hawkeye says:
so much vitriol....was it ok to rapp bolt half dome? or were you guys quiet then because you knew the players?


Wha?.... Who was quiet? Most of us never heard a peep about Growing Up until coz started screaming. Then there was a lot of NOT QUIET, but even then, it was too late, the deed was done.

Or haven't you seen this thread?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=566859&msg=1267467#msg1267467




Jhedge, coz, I'm still waiting to hear about rap bolting on Southern Belle.
I thought that route was supposed to be the bold virgin queen of ground up. Sounds as though there may be some dirty undies in the closet. C'mon somebody spit it out....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
I just returned from Patagonia where I was able to explore pristine, never before visited, areas near the North Patagonia Ice Cap.
Jim just knowing those places still exist is important to me.


Today's emphasis on establishing the highest technical difficulty regardless of the means seems so remote, to me, from the spirit of exploration that got me and many others into climbing.

I couldn't agree more.


Spending the rest of my climbing life poking my nose into some of the last remaining unexplored crannies on our beautiful planet will serve me just fine.
That would serve me fine as well.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 27, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
survival,

i think that there are some peeps here berating lama who were not as vocal about growin up.


Some Mountains should not be subdued by every artificial means in the egotist arsenal.

philo, if there was ever an artificial means it was the maestri effort. the same route that folks got all pissed when some others were going to erase it.

we are a terribly fickle bunch, us rock climbers. we adore the free ascent of the nose that uses chipped holds, we dont mind rapp bolting on certain cliffs , then we blow up when someone wants to rap bolt cerro torre whose most popular route was arguably a travesty. seems like most of us are a bunch of self serving folks with a lack of perception...
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 27, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
we are a terribly fickle bunch, us rock climbers. we adore the free ascent of the nose that uses chipped holds, we dont mind rapp bolting on certain cliffs , then we blow up when someone wants to rap bolt cerro torre whose most popular route was arguably a travesty. seems like most of us are a bunch of self serving folks with a lack of perception...


A lot of truth there. I have a hard time sorting out my own schizo, much less all the rest of these anarchists.

I don't like the Compressor, and I don't want it rap bolted. I don't like Growing Up being rap bolted. I won't do any of them though, so it's more about the taste it leaves in my mouth based on my upbringing as a climber and the way I conducted myself on my boldest climbs.

In the end, GU won't get chopped, and it will be more popular and "classic" because of the protection available.

But I tell you, Honnold and his partner got major street cred by going to Southern Belle instead of GU.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 27, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
Comparing Yosemite to Patagonia is like equating the Milton Boulder with the Diamond.
The effort and time required put them on entirely different planes.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Or would you be OK with rap bolting the Painted Wall?


Ground up not ground down.
Branscomb

Trad climber
Lander, WY
Jan 27, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
Reminds me of Euripes' play The Bacchae. The arrogant and headstrong king of Thebes, who is convinced of his rightness, is finally seduced by Dionysius into dressing like a Maenid in order to go to their mountain glen and observe their rituals. However, his true identity is revealed on his arrival at the mountain by Dionysius and he is torn to shreds by the Maenids. The main point of the play is an exposition of the crowd mentality and it's violence (perhaps applicable here) but also the folly of men who will not consider the thoughts and outlooks of others because they are so convinced of the rightness of their outlook.

I suppose that could always cut both ways, but I suspect this kid is going to come to a bad end, just because, to me, he goes so against the spirit of climbing that is embodied in a mountain like Cerro Torre.
Branscomb

Trad climber
Lander, WY
Jan 27, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
We are a fickle and a little confused bunch, since we don't seem to mind such actions in some settings but yammer and scream when it happens in others. Myself included.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 27, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
philo,

those of you are and have always been ground up are not fickle if thats your thing. i was not advocating one thing over another. however, it is fair to say that had rapp bolting not ever came into vogue even on a chossy road cut that we would not see the idea for Cerro Torre.

point is that our (collective) agreement that rapp bolting on some cliffs have led to this. for lama, it is obviously a natural extension of rapp bolting on small cliffs. i am certainly not supporting it, but since i have rapp bolted i dont feel the right to throw rocks at the guy no matter how effed up i think it is...we cannot control the behaviour of others, we can only practice what we preach...
Randisi

Boulder climber
East Side
Jan 27, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
If I recall correctly, didn't Maestri claim he used the compressor because the company was a sponsor?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 27, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
Yes, and Al Capone favored the Thompson machine gun for the same reason.
Disaster Master

Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
Jan 27, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
Donini:
edit: I hesitate to promote my finds in the interest of preserving them.

You could still write a bitchin' TR with some pics thatt would not make it obvious where it is.

Or how about a fictionalized version?

"Somewhere, beyond the map, or just off the margins our story begins..."


(Thread Drift)
mikeyschaefer

climber
Yosemite
Jan 28, 2011 - 10:35am PT
The Torres 3 days ago.
The Torres 3 days ago.
Credit: mikeyschaefer

I hope that David Lama fails to steal one of the greatest projects that is left for future generations.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 28, 2011 - 10:52am PT
Beautiful pic Mikey, looks like you've had some weather.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Jan 28, 2011 - 11:07am PT
Donini, keep your finds quiet, too many these days use exploration to fund their lifestyles and line the pockets of corporate magazines.( especially in the surf world) It is refreshing to see that their are still folks out there that still explore for the adventure not finacial gains.Here,Here! Cheers!!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jan 28, 2011 - 11:11am PT
edit: I hesitate to promote my finds in the interest of preserving them.

You can tell Me Jim. it will be our little secret . Is there any wide?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 28, 2011 - 11:18am PT
The Patagonia where we have built our house is a throwback to the 70's in terms of access and exploration. No magnificent peaks like Fitzroy and the Torre's but plenty of unexplored terrain with little gems. Any TR I do will not provide location information, but I will share that with anyone who shows up on my doorstep. The area will never attract climbers looking for notoriety but it's perfect for those who love to explore and climb for there own personal reasons.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 28, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
I have done FA in Patagonia and El Cap, FFA of SB and can tell you from experience, they're the same, can you speak from experience?

It was every bit as hard doing ground up routes in both areas, Patagonia just has sh#t weather.

Dave Lama, is a shameful sell out, in my book, if he wants to go down in history as the man who rap bolted Cerro Torre, it's his book to write. I hope Rollo and the boys stop him, and his ego madness.

no ego in your posts are there?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 28, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
Those photos of the bolts right next to perfect cracks make me sick.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 28, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
Yeah- sometimes those damn bolts grab your shoelaces as you're jamming past them.
Disaster Master

Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
Jan 28, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
donini


Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado Jan 28, 2011 - 10:43am PT
Yeah- sometimes those damn bolts grab your shoelaces as you're jamming past them.

Try slippers!
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Jan 28, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
Coz, Philo is a nature loving person that believes in a lot of the old trad values that we grew up with in the 70's. I'm sure that he respects your abilities and resume of climbs, as they are too impressive to ignore. Philo does have a fairly impressive list of FA's and early repeats of routes in the Black and Red Rocks himself, but he would be the first to downplay his impact, being the self effacing person that he is. That being said, there is nothing he enjoys better than good banter about issues he feels strongly about.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 28, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
I still wonder how Lame-a will be 'freeing' the upper headwall, which is usually plastered with ice and hoar.
Gene

climber
Jan 28, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
Those photos of the bolts right next to perfect cracks make me sick.


Credit: Gene
Reposted from Page 3 of this thread.

As a career 5.6 climber, I find this as revolting as many of the more skilled climbers posting here. Wrong is wrong.
g
jschaefer

Sport climber
Munich, Germany
Jan 28, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
David Lama posted a news item on his website. It looks like he is not going to rappel-bolt...
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 28, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
Here's the latest entry from his website. He does say no rap bolting, so maybe all the noise we and others have made did have an effect after all.

January 28, 2011
First try on Cerro Torre!

We hiked up to Cerro Torre with high expectations for our first attempt this year. Unfortunately we achieved no progress. We made it up to last year’s highpoint, but no further.

The night in the Bergschrund on the Col was short and cold, but first when we started climbing it got really shitty. There was a thin layer of ice in most cracks and also on parts of the rock. Enough ice to make climbing with the hands really slippery, not enough ice to make good use of the ice gear. In hard laboured climbing we made it up to the bolt traverse, there the weather forced us to quit our attempt.

So I’m still stuck in the same situation as last year, not having seen the upper part of the route and still lacking information on the headwall, such as rock quality or features for freeclimbing… I hope we will soon get a share of good weather and conditions to be able to make it to the summit. First then I’ll be able to see if there is a possibility to try out for a free attempt. As far as possible I would like to stick to the compressor route; I’ll refrain from bolting in rap-style. Should variations from the original compressor route be necessary for a free climbing attempt I will have to do that on lead, a quiet time intense venture for the short periods of good weather on Cerro Torre.

At the moment I’m frustrated that we were not able to achieve progress on the mountain. But we’ll take comfort in drinking some Patagonian beer and do, what most people are doing here: Waiting.
Gene

climber
Jan 28, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
I’ll refrain from bolting in rap-style. Should variations from the original compressor route be necessary for a free climbing attempt I will have to do that on lead...

Begs a question about bolts for the camera crew and support team.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jan 28, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
Wow!! That's a positive "looking" development!
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Jan 28, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
Credit: mike m
Here here, I am going to definately hoist one tonight to the taco and all our members.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jan 28, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
nice words Coz, as usual spot on and talking like one who has been there and knows.
it would be good to see David understand the significance of his plan and the folly that will play out. free it if you can on the gear that is there.. if not leave it for someone who can..
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 28, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
This is great news!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 28, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
free it if you can on the gear that is there.. if not leave it for someone who can..

One interesting point that no has brought up is that a magnificent failure will do a whole lot more for his reputation than a success that was achieved by reducing the challenge. David Lama has nothing to fear from failing to free the route. Nor do his sponsors. If he goes in there, and gives it everything he has (which is considerable), without resorting to rap bolting, he'll gain huge respect in the climbing community. Regardless of whether he makes it to the top.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 29, 2011 - 02:02am PT
Coz, much respect.


It is not the climbing per se that I was referring to as not comparable it was the level of commitment inherent to Patagonia over California. An average bloke could fly in to California to do a ElCap or Half Dome route over the weekend. Accurate long term forecasts, easy cell & internet and ready access to rescue make any route in the lower 48, regardless of technical grade, a far less involved endeavor. Patagonia has intense unpredictable weather with minimal windows of climbable time.

Though I did express understanding of the GU team's motivations I am actually not a proponent of bolting at all. Rap bolting least of all. I have placed 3 bolts only in the decades I have climbed. Two hand drilled on leads as the only possible alternative after run outs. And one rap bolted at the end of 1000'+ of fixed line. Does that make me a tainted hypocrite?

We were training for the Painted Wall and went off the rim to replace the crux bolt on the Goss Logan. The bolt at he end of the 5.11 runout. The bolt that keeps a fall from being a death pendulum into the big dihedral. We hadn't initially planned to rap bolt but friends had pulled it out in their fingers the day before we were going to climb the route. In that case rap bolting allowed me to really land a safe bolt where crap had been before. Lots of people have done that route since. Should i pull it?


And yes Lama saying he wont rap bolt is a good turn of intents.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 29, 2011 - 02:07am PT
Replacing an existing, accepted bolt en rappel doesn't count as rapbolting. It might slightly detract from the onsight experience, at least for that part of the climb - if the climber hadn't done the route before. But that's about it.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jan 29, 2011 - 02:33am PT
What will the film crew do? They would likely be wanting to place new bolts for getting better shots...
jsb

Trad climber
Bay area
Jan 29, 2011 - 03:22am PT
Props to David Lama for planning to bolt on lead. Be safe!
bmacd

Social climber
100% Canadian
Jan 29, 2011 - 03:54am PT
Congrats to the boys in Patagonia for talking some sense into the Lama child

Way to go Jason et al.

Ultimatums are effective
QITNL

climber
Jan 29, 2011 - 04:18am PT
I think that one small statement is good news. Coming from the media business, I might read into it a little more.

Climbers may have got their message to David Lama, and that's cool. He may have a better climb, perhaps a great climb, hopefully at least a respectable climb. That matters, but honestly, to only a very few.

The tension is now between him and his camera crew. And to those they deliver to.

They measure their work against Cliffhanger, Into the Wild, 127 Hours, X-Games - popular crap . Unless it were paying my bills, I have no interest in any of that.

Climbing photography/videography needs to be held to the standards set by, say, Galen Rowell. If Team Lama comes away with less footage than they wanted, that may be a fortuitous outcome.

Hey, all I need is the occasional Donini pic.

Blame us.
bmacd

Social climber
100% Canadian
Jan 29, 2011 - 04:30am PT
so are they going to chop the compressor route now and make it a fresh start all round ?
Jerry Dodrill

climber
Sebastopol, CA
Jan 29, 2011 - 07:48am PT
Climbing photography/videography needs to be held to the standards set by, say, Galen Rowell. If Team Lama comes away with less footage than they wanted, that may be a fortuitous outcome.

By that standard they would need to take pictures of themselves, or have a photographer as a "participatory" member of the climbing team, a concept not likely with this big production shoot, but a high ideal indeed.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jan 29, 2011 - 10:05am PT
Rap bolted routes are the lift assisted skiing of the climbing world. everything in it's own time and place. See many lift towers in the back country?



My inner ego is strong brother.

That's why we love you, Coz!
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jan 29, 2011 - 10:08am PT
jhedge, i have to disagree that a bolt is a bolt.
sounds good on paper, but style still means something and in this media age, style may be the last thing that the modern climber can stand out against the media crush. which would be very cool to see this generation committing to the style that i grew up with a respected to my core..

i have ground up countless routes, some death, some fun. i have also rap bolted countless routes and most of those fade from memory quicker than the repeat..

style matters to those who are interested in style, style also shows the person climbing that route a small taste of the FA party..

this sport has been so dumbed down, that it would be refreshing to see style and ethics make a come back..

but hey that's just my opinion..
Disaster Master

Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
Jan 29, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
The Kid:
i have ground up countless routes, some death, some fun. i have also rap bolted countless routes and most of those fade from memory quicker than the repeat..


Good point. Of all the routes I have put up, the ground up ones are the best in my mind. And I have NOTHING against rap-bolting if done well.

Some of my rap-bolted lines are remembered as classic because the moves / feature just rocks. They get climbed a lot more than other lines I put up ground up. I have had people pleed with me to bolt some of my trad lines. "The climbings so good, but the gear is scary!"

Well, I started at the bottom and got to the top on that one ground up. So it stays that way. To bolt it would be to kill part of my past. Even though I really want people to climb it and experience the moves, it's not woth the sacrifice of boldness for fun sometimes.

The climbs I remember the fondest are often dispised by those who try and repete them. To them it is "Unnessicarily scary". To me it is a line in stone that once measured my resolve. Love those!

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 29, 2011 - 12:48pm PT
Don't forget that we have Rolo and Chris Geisler and Mikey on scene. I have never met Rolo, but have read his stuff. I've climbed with Chris and he is a solid climber and a straight shooter. And Mikey will keep us apprised.

Those three and others are sure to look out for the rock, and for us.

In the meantime, keeps those cards and letters sent to the sponsors. Write the sponsors directly. While the Red Bull people are not climbers and just don't "get it", the climbing gear manufacturers most assuredly do.

Superb photo, Mikey - "monkeys are sending!"
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jan 31, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
http://rockandice.com/news/1334-lama-has-abandoned-his-rap-bolting-plans-on-cerro-torre
gee double

climber
victor idaho
Feb 7, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
I hope Lama free climbs it... and soon after someone on sight's it! Good Luck!
james williamson

climber
Feb 9, 2011 - 02:16am PT
I agree with the original Kid, "F#+@!ck that kid", and the guy before that said to "pound" the guy and his crew. It's dangerous ground to annoint a "rock cop" squad, but as climbers, we as a community must play a role in protecting those places that few will ever get to. To be a little judgemental, some don't belong or deserve to be there. There could be many reasons why they should not be there, but perhaps the most important might be a lack of respect or appreciation for what it means to be there and what the setting represents in a context broader than just the immediate.These tactics applied to The Captain or Marmolada represent something completely different. As it appears that the other parties have for two years attempted to make Lama understand the significance of the Tower and the negative impact His project would have,and that such obvious overwhelming public sentiment has not encouraged him to consider that virtually everyone in the world with knowledge of the situation thinks it is a bad idea, he appears to be a sociopath who will not be deterred. F#!+K that guy, pound his ass and forget waitin for him to get it.
bruce kaufman

climber
Feb 9, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
My first post on Supertopo: a letter submitted through the Red Bull comment page.

"It has come to my attention that David Lama and his Red Bull sponsors plan to place climbing bolts on Cerro Torre during rappel. This act is not supported by the vast majority of Alpinists in the world or by any environmentalist that I know. Placing bolts on historic and idyllic massifs such as Cerro Torre leaves scars that cannot be erased. Moreover, it stands against decades of clean climbing ethics and an alpinist ideal akin to leave no trace. Just because it’s possible to film in this location doesn’t mean that it should be done. Please respect the wishes of the majority and cancel any plans to film with David Lama at Cerro Torre."
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Feb 9, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
Speaking on behalf of a fictional majority really isn't that persuasive, and what decades of clean climbing practices are you referring to?
Klimbien

Trad climber
Orange Walk, Belize
Feb 9, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
This is the reply from RedBull after I submitted an email to them.

...Thanks for sending us your concern.

David Lama is back in Patagonia climbing the Cerro Torre. Due to bad weather, the undertaking and film production had to be stopped last year. The entire shoulder and wall has been cleaned of our and older material which was found. Only one haul bag and 30 bolts, which had do be used due to falling ice and to protect the main climbing route, had been left. For the completion of the production, the film crew will refrain from using any further bolts and remove the existing ones as part of this years attempt. We know David Lama as a responsible climber, support his undertaking and know that he will refrain from any unnecessary and incorrect steps.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to give us a call at 1(877)673-9444.

Regards,

Emily
Red Bull
http://www.redbullusa.com
QITNL

climber
Feb 10, 2011 - 04:22am PT
Let's all hoist our cup to "bad weather."

Hell, last weekend I used it as an excuse to turn around.

Cheers, friends.
Dickbob

climber
Colorado
Feb 10, 2011 - 04:52am PT
Klimbien,
Word for word I received the exact same response from Emily
rolo

climber
Feb 13, 2011 - 08:47am PT
Three days ago Canadians Chris Geisler and Jason Kruk came mighty close to pulling off a "fair means" ascent of the SE ridge of Cerro Torre. They reached a point 40 meters from the top of the headwall without touching any of Maestri's Compressor routes bolts -they might have used a couple on belays, but none on progression. Very F... impressive. Chris lead on the headwall through the night, spending 8 hours on one of the pitches. Hearing the description first hand was priceless. Hat's off to them for such a good go at it!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 13, 2011 - 08:58am PT
Wow! what an impressive effort.
What stopped them?
Did they continue on bolts or descend?
Disaster Master

Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
Feb 13, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
rolo


climber Feb 13, 2011 - 05:47am PT
Three days ago Canadians Chris Geisler and Jason Kruk came mighty close to pulling off a "fair means" ascent of the SE ridge of Cerro Torre. They reached a point 40 meters from the top of the headwall without touching any of Maestri's Compressor routes bolts

Could someone post details or a link to info when avail? That sounds VERY interesting...
Johnny K.

climber
Southern,California
Feb 13, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
What Paul said!
bmacd

Social climber
100% Canadian
Feb 13, 2011 - 08:26pm PT

Chris Geisler: Back intact. We climbed to the Torre headwall in 1.5 days, sessioned the headwall for a night, got to 20' left of compressor itself on variants, wind picked up so we split, worked....In BA, home tomorrow night.
rolo

climber
Feb 13, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
here is link to a bit more info

http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html#fair

it is pretty exciting to know about this great effort and very near miss, and to know that soon CT's SE ridge might have a proper and proud line up it.

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber
oakland
Feb 13, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
hmmm, interesting thread here. i think lama should be free to rap bolt it, as long as he does not use fixed lines. good freaking luck in that weather. and hold off on the film crew until the thing actually gets freed, then pose down for it. and lama is missing the real point, until he actually sees the headwall up close, how does he know what he's dealing with. might the maestri bolt ladder be the actual line of free ascent, as is the case with many bolt ladders, they connect the natural features of the rock. i think the future of the maestri route is to do the free varaiations pioneered by brits, wharton, and smith, and then try to free climb the actual bolt ladder. maybe there does not need to be another bolt line.

and by the way, some colorado boys did the ffa of the torre via the ferrari route back in the day, free climbing the torre is so last millinieum.

also, the rap route down from the shoulder is totally viable. it replaces a very dangerous rapell route that had only one bolt on some anchors. i had thought previously how nice it would be to have these backed up or replaced.

steve schneider
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 1, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
So I'm waitin' for my samwich (jamon y queso) in El Chalten and, being a multi-tasker, I
start to peruse the bulletin board. Also, being a tool freak, my eye is immediately
drawn to this cool looking unit:

Credit: Reilly

You could save some weight by ditching the wheels... jess sayin'.
I was thinkin' Weld_It could substiture skis for the wheels on K2.



The natives were not amused!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 3, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
Maybe I posted the above too late the other day but I'm
thinking I can't be the only one to find it pretty amusing.
adam d

climber
The Bears, CA
Mar 3, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
Classic! Just needs a Spanish translation as well so it's not only directed at the anglos...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Mar 3, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
hmmm, interesting thread here. i think lama should be free to rap bolt it, as long as he does not use fixed lines.

Doesn't a rap line constitute a fixed line?
I think Lama should have his ass handed to him on a rusty piton if he rap bolts.
Conrad

climber
Mar 3, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
With a priestly surname rooted in Tibetan Buddhism one would think David would be all about reducing suffering. Can't imagine this controversy is making his life easier and happier for those around him. Certainly creating a bit of hurt here in the climbing community.

A few friends in Nepal have the same last name. Super nice, generous and mindful people. As I suspect David is. Just a little mixed up with the ways, means and end discussion. The free ascent of the Torre sans the heavy tactics is even more meaningful and at the end of the day more "bad-ass", which is what Red Bull seems to be all about.

Just as humans pull dams out of rivers, restoring life in the process, we can apply the same idea to the Compressor Route. By pulling the bolts we would give the spire some of it's strength back. Meastri and the compressor controversy would be a small chapter in climbing history. We learn from our mistakes and in doping so would be upping the ante for future generations. On a personal level I would be keen to revisit it.

I'm a fan of RockStar. It is a better value and the esteemed Peter Croft's beverage of choice, after coffee, of course.

Style matters. Peter in the Palisade Sierras.
Style matters. Peter in the Palisade Sierras.
Credit: Conrad

dickon

Mountain climber
CO
Mar 18, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
What would Steve House say about this travesty.
MH2

climber
Mar 18, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
Can't tell you what he said but he did participate in the petition to Red Bull.

Along with other notables.


FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 18, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
YOU COULD USE THE AIR TO POWER THE WHEELS & RIDE IT UP AS YOU BOLT.
dave

climber
Earth
Mar 18, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
http://www.montanhismo.org.br/images/PegaLeve/tyroldeclaration.pdf
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 30, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
Another reason to hate red bull: they burned the guy with the idea to break the skydiving height record:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/10/red-bull-cancels-stratos/
darod

Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
Mar 30, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
So, all this talk and complaining about elite climbers and film crews, etc, got me thinking and realized that bitching about it here won't really do much to change their determination...so why not really attack the source of the whole problem? Lama wouldn't need to film his ascent if it wasn't for his need of sponsorships...or is it the other way around? don't matter...

Stop drinking Red Bull, don't buy any more Mammut products, period, ever. Get your friends to do the same. In this age of social media we have a lot more power than most people think.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 30, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
Ironic that history has a way of repeating itself.

The japanese are irradiated and the Compressor route has a bolting outrage.

What's with that?

Peace

Karl
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 30, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
There's a short report in the new issue of Gripped, about the attempt by Chris Geisler and Jason Kruk to climb the route without Maestri's bolts. They got to within 40 m of the end of the headwall before being driven back by a storm. Chris and Jason placed two bolts on their attempt, but used the existing bolts/stations to rappel.

Lama was on the compressor 'route' bolt ladder at the same time, and "They reported the frustration of climbing while being constantly buzzed by Lama's film-crew helicopters."
slidingmike

climber
CA
Mar 30, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
So it's over? It's hard to tell what ethics & style were used in the end.

http://basecamp.mammut.ch/en/basecamp-news/David_lama_Patagonia_diary
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 27, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
I see in the last link it looks like Lama is working with Mammut the company that brought us this
Credit: mike m
I am sure that if you read any climbing media you have seen their stunts in fancy full color pull outs. If this picture is real, which I hope it is not, they have 30 ropes perfectly spaced going down to climbers. I wonder what the ropes are anchored to. The add says it is on Klausen Pass anyone know about this place. I have seen another add where they put a similar amount of people on a rock spire in the alps. Could this be the same production crew and the ethics they used in Patagonia for Lama's climb? what is it they are trying to say? Put as many people in wilderness as possible, everyone should be the same, any expense is worth promoting our product.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Apr 27, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
dude, calm down.

ive been through klausen a half dozen times.

i really like ury-- one of the places in switzerland i'd really like to go back to again.


you need to get used to the idea that in the alps, sport, bouldering, and rad alpine can co-exist. the ropes might be on that big crag up off the north side of the pass. or they might be photoshopped.

and no one would care.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Apr 27, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
I think they are just trying to be artsy dude relax. Kick back, pour a scotch and pull your panties out of your arse.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 27, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
Oh yeah companies should only be responible in Patagonia.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Apr 27, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
Oh yeah companies should only be responible in Patagonia.

You on a personal campaign to stop locals in other parts of the world from rap-bolting, fixing anchors, building bridges, huts, clubs, via ferrata, trams, and highways?

It's the Alps. Folks have been chopping, channeling, and chundering that landscape for the last three millennia. Klausen pass is one of the emptiest passes in that chunk of the Alps. But no, it ain't the North Cascades.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 27, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
Not against any of that stuff. But I would be against installing 30 bolted anchors just for an ad campiagn. Would you be ok with it if that is the case. Doesn't seem as if it would be any different than what Lama's crew did on Cerro Torre.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Apr 27, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
RADNESS!!!!!!!!88
Top_Rope

Mountain climber
Queenstown, NZ
Apr 27, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
Weld_it - if you really think the homogenous Lama is radness, then you're so metrosexual (not that their is anything wrong with dat)
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 27, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
Went to their websitehttp://basecamp.mammut.ch/en/testevents/ropetests and it looks like it was definately not photoshoped and guess who is in several photos, DL. Must be a really long horizontal crack where they ezqualized cam every 5 feet above the roof because in their literature they talk about how they are sustainable and they make no compromises.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Apr 27, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
LAMA IS HOMOGENIOUS OR WHATERVER? IS THAT THE SAME AS GAY AN IF SO SO SO WHAT BRA. HE IS RADNESS TO THE CORE!
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 27, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
Would he not be more rad if he didn't do everytnhing with a huge crew installing bolts everywhere to document his radness.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Apr 27, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
FACT: LAMA CREW IS NOT SO RAD WITH THE BOLTS BUT HE IS RADNESS!!!! HIS POOSSIE IS ONLY THERE TO SUPPORT THE RADNESS BRA
Top_Rope

Mountain climber
Queenstown, NZ
Apr 27, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
An endearing description of radness ought not be bandied to describe the drilling of a misguided youth.

As Reg Mombasa learnt the wet way - accept no substitutes
Credit: Top_Rope
klk

Trad climber
cali
Apr 28, 2011 - 12:40am PT
mike, here ya go.

buy a ticket from sioux falls to zurich:
http://www.farecompare.com/flights/Sioux_Falls-FSD/Zurich-ZRH/market.html

then rent a car and stop off here and buy a crowbar:
http://www.mammut.ch/stores_switzerland_berne.html

then drive up to here:
http://www.pictures-switzerland.com/klausen/index.htm

spend an easy week chopping all the sport routes, then run up here and go bouldering:
http://www.lucycreamer.com/gallery.php?p=1%7C5%7C5

then do a quick run up the chli bielenhorn, chopping those bolts en route:
http://www.summitpost.org/beatifull-scenery-and-a-real/140088/c-155119

then dynamite the frickin highway behind you as you return, fly home, and jump on the ole internet and post up a TR.

btw, be sure to tell the swiss that yr an american, that'll calm 'em all down.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 28, 2011 - 12:51am PT
Who is talking about chopping sport routes?
Top_Rope

Mountain climber
Queenstown, NZ
Apr 28, 2011 - 12:56am PT
That's a bummer klk. I read that you were on for the Tetons and so I was going to hook us up with some sweet accom. and possibly some climbing together. But then you went and got all 'postal' on MikeM.

So MikeM. You wanna come stay in our chalet in Jackson sometime through June?
klk

Trad climber
cali
Apr 28, 2011 - 12:59am PT
you went and got all 'postal'

heh.

this apparently means something different in new zealand.


2nd Amendment baby.
Top_Rope

Mountain climber
Queenstown, NZ
Apr 28, 2011 - 01:10am PT
KLK: We refer 'postal' to dudes that go crazy psycho and start blowing places apart. Much akin to disgruntled US postal workers.

The 2nd Ammendment is mighty - it appears to be as much about freedom as it does the spirit of respecting anothers' views. I hear Lama's 2nd Ammendment to the Cerro Torre project was an improvement on the first.

We should get strong, show-up in shape for the Tetons and go push the comfort zone a little.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Apr 28, 2011 - 01:34am PT
We should get strong, show-up in shape for the Tetons and go push the comfort zone a little.

these days, my entire frickin life is outside the comfort zone
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 28, 2011 - 09:45am PT
KLK, If I gottta go to Sioux Falls I aint going.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Patagonia controversy bump
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