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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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I'd like to see a partnership between the Department of Corrections and the State Lottery Commission. We have over 600 guys on death row just in California, and it's costing us a fortune to house and feed these losers. We can re-coup some of that money by making executions into a lottery style game. Instead of dragging out one guy at a time and executing him, we could showcase five or six who are up for it, and have some sort of competition to determine who gets the needle. Maybe they can draw straws, play rock-paper-scissors, spelling bee, or my favorite, Death Row Jeopardy. The Lottery people will oversee wagering on the outcome, raising money to offset the cost of keeping these rat-bastards locked up awaiting their big day. This can all be televised on Saturday nights, right after the Big Spin. That way we get to see the reactions on the faces of the winners and the unlucky loser as they find out who gets executed that night. Instead of having a chance to speak some last words, the guy strapped onto the gurney can be told "thanks for helping our schools".
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Wow, whatever else, that pic of him in the wikipedia link shows that he had a set of guns (no pun intended). Arnie was right, look at them arms.
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Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
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Further, there are certain crimes--violent rape, sadistic murder, child molestation and treason as examples--
interesting fervor developing from the revenge business. i guess the reasons above might be why there are women and children strapping explosives to their bodies to get even with the perpatrators of these atrocities. I think most of ya'll are right. the perps deserve it in a big way. fundamentalist extremists seem to come in all shapes, sizes and colors. where does it stop? don't we all deserve such a fate by proxy?
the 'govt' need be out of the revenge business. you want to put Tookie in a room and let the nearest closest relative to the victim decide and then live with that decision go ahead.
If pulling Ezekial from a Tarantino movie is on, then why not that woman (people) deserves her (their) revenge, and we deserve to die. Brother Bud
Good luck on your pilot to 'Running Man'....
Lovesgasolines' comments on role models are spot on... Let's apply'em from the 'top down' shall we....
Role models are not individuals whose actions we need question.
Role models do not have a heavy haze of doubt and expediency clouding their legacy.
Role models’ deeds are not entangled in equivocal motives.
Ed. but wait, what about compassion for the innocent victims. Hypocrite by Proxy huh...Love a juicy rationalization in the morning, smells like superiority.
maybe education and liberty of a people was tookie's plan all along.... you know, you have to break a few eggs....
I'm guessing a passel 'o convenience store clerks were disintegrated in Fallujah, no matter, it was for way more than 30 bucks.
Tookie? just another homicidal sociopath, i offer no excuses, just looking for a little continuity in the application of justice and morality.
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dirtbag
climber
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Lovesgasoline, Locker, others,
Tookie is not a role model. He is a cold blooded killer. Maybe he reformed into a decent person, maybe not, I don't care. But it sickens me that our society caves in to our lust for a blood revenge and kills people when alternatives are available. It's only slightly less barbaric than the acts committed by the Tookies of the world.
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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jody said: "They should give him a gut shot from a 12GA and leave him gurgling to die like he did his victims."
Yeah, that's a christian attitude.
lovegasoline said: ""The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
Ezekiel 25:17.
"
FYI, this is not a quote from the bible, this is a quote from a movie about hit men and drug dealers.
THIS is a quote from the bible:
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.....43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? - Matthew 5:38,39,43-46. (NIV)
If you are christian then Jesus' teachings should supersede those of the old testament where they contradict. Particularly when Jesus specifically said that they should supersede the old law.
Andy
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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I don't understand why the "black community" rallies behind slimes like Tookie and they gang up and lambast outstanding citizens like Clarence Thomas and Condoleeza Rice. Rather perplexing to me. If they would spend their energy building up people like Rice and Thomas rather than coming to the defense of a slimeball like Williams, the "black leaders" would have more credibility.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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DMT, if dookie is executed, he will be only the second black man in the last 30 years executed by the State of California. During that time, there have been 15 other executions. By and large, your socioeconomic status/minority argument does hold true across the country, but not so in California.
If someone kills my father, or my wife, or my kid I would accept no less than the death penalty for the assailant as true justice. Vengance is part of justice for the victims of murder. In fact, I'd be happy to pull the trigger/throw the switch/drop the canister myself.
Ed
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Interesting thing, the death penalty.
Is it justice?
Is it vengeance?
Is it a deterrant?
From the statements above I would say that within this crowd it is better than 90% vengeance. If so, it should be public, and everyone should be forced to watch, even little kids. Then it might become a deterrent. Who knows?
If it is a deterrent, where are the numbers that support this?
Is it justice then? Lets start with say, Jesus?
The long process is simply a legal one. Automatic appeal. Back and forth to the governor's desk if not the Supreme Court. It is supposed to work that way so a mistake hasn't been made. Tim McVeigh wanted to die right off, but they forced him to live for years, for the automatic checks and balances to take place, even though he waived them all.
Has a mistake ever been made?
Is it morally wrong to take a human life under any circumstances? Is it morally incoherent to not use embryos for stem cell research, yet gleefully celebrate the end of a human life, no matter how reprehensible? Is that a consistent train of thought?
How about gleefully celebrating Ronald Reagan's death? Could Alzheimers be cured from stem cell research? Does Nancy Reagan think so?
All I am doing is asking questions here and hurray for the one who has answers.
And AKclimber. They don't have capital punishment in Alaska.
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ralph_teh_klimber
climber
ralph town
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in a perfect neo-con utopia all brown non-xhristians would be eliminated. i really enjoy the situational hate, it really makes things easy. there is no balance only a one sided thought process that allows for self rightousness no matter what the need be.
kill tookie, kill gwb, kill barney and kill that f*#king harry potter as#@&%e!
funny how flourescent lighting and recycled office air can make so many wannbe climbers feel so tough from a far. get tough go visit tookie and call him the nigger that YOU know he is.
hang nails the internet climbers most fretful injury.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Fattrad, that's not true about Ralph. He does know at least two things: Barney and Harry Potter must both die.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Let's just assume that DMT is both a climber, and he is innocent (whatever that means).
Should we allow him to decide to climb a difficult and dangerous route. If he makes a mistake he might cause the death of himself and his partner (also innocent), leaving their families unsupported. I am not willing to do that. Life without climbing.
So DMT / jury-judicial system has a decision to make. Can / should we trust either one to be able to make the right decision? Keep in mind that in either case there is a non-zero probability of an error resulting in the death of an innocent and a cost to society.
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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My views on the death penalty are still somewhat mixed, but I'd like to add to the questions that BASE posed. Perhaps somebody could provide answers that provides for more enlightenment beyond describing how you'd like to pump someone full of pellets.
Why is it that we are only one of the few industrialized countries that still has the death penalty? Is there something that these other countries realize that we don't?
Why is it that the conservatives on this forum took the stance that I expected them to take?
If I know for sure that someone kills my wife, and I commit vigilante justice by killing that person, I will still be charged with murder. If this person is killed via the death penalty, it still meets the definition of a murder in my opinion, though one may argue that the definition has unlawful in there somewhere. Same end, but different means, so political affiliations aside, how is one means more moral than the other?
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Victorville, CA
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Has anyone noticed that this thread has the longest replies??
Unsoeld makes a bad choice, dies in Kadaver gap.
Slater takes a rest day when he could have summited, dies the day after, descending K2 when he is stormed off.
Why would any climber argue about consequences?
Foster a subculture, and lead by the example of murder for sport.
He should have been executed some 18 years ago, closure for the families, a possible deterrent for others, who knows haw many of his compatriots would not have committed additional murders if he had died within a year or so. How many lives were affected by our systems failure to not just try, but execute in a timely manner?
Most seeking justice are not bloodmongers, they just know that evil must be opposed for good to prevail. To suggest otherwise is to let the worst determine the conditions for all, that might even encroach on your trip to starbucks.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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They should give him a gut shot from a 12GA and leave him gurgling to die like he did his victims.
Wow, that's so .... christian of you.
What happened to infinite forgiveness and compassion? What happened to looking at how Jesus would handle the situation? And you wonder why some people see certain incarnations of these religions as so much hypocrisy that's just there to make the masses feel better about themselves while they go on being just as immoral as the heathen masses.
Now, I'm not calling for him to be set free, for sure. He unarguably committed a crime so heinous that he has no business ever being a part of society again. But there's a big difference between protecting society and pursuing vengeance, which is all the death penalty is about. "eye for an eye makes everyone blind" and all that.
don't understand why the "black community" rallies behind slimes like Tookie and they gang up and lambast outstanding citizens like Clarence Thomas and Condoleeza Rice.
Why in the world would they support people who've done so much and supported people who've done so much to counteract what is commonly perceived as good things for the black community (think anti-affirmative action, pro huge cuts to medicaid, child care, etc.)? They should support them just because they're black?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Capital punishment would act as a deterrent if the execution were carried out 6 weeks to 6 months after sentencing. Nevertheless, 20 years on death row is quite a punishment in itself, but doesn’t do much to stop people from committing murder in the first degree. No real good answers as long as the criminal justice system is trapped between punishment and reformation (as it has been since the late 19th century).
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Tradboy - Why is it that we are only one of the few industrialized countries that still has the death penalty?
Does it matter? Because the others don't? We are also the strongest politically and economically. We also probably have the largest level of immigration of those same countries. Does this mean they know something we don't? Red herring argument.
Is there something that these other countries realize that we don't? Same. Maybe it is what they don't realize.
Why is it that the conservatives on this forum took the stance that I expected them to take? More Red herring, not to mention perhaps mislabeling of people.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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OK, Dingus. You escape with a plea bargain. LWC.
Please send me your rack.
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Jody, you are not consistent.
If it were punishment you were after, we would all stake him to an anthill. Right before he died, we would take him off, heal him and repeat the process for the rest of his life. Ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime. Punishment should always exceed the crime, but for murder, there is nothing greater than the equal.
Seriously, how do you justify that it is OK to put someone to death, and be against, say, stemcell research. How can you say to the world that you would shoot someone in the gut to die slowly and be a consistent Christian. I just don't get this.
One of my best friends is an ex/DA now criminal attorney. We were talking about the death penalty the other day, and he said certain attorneys specialized in it. If you could not pay for said attorney you are likely f*#ked. If you, like OJ, could afford a million dollar attorney, you could commit murder and likely walk. He said that is why poor people fry. They can't afford a Johnny Cochran type defense.
He said the same thing about Tom Delay, that he has a VERY good lawyer, and if the state didn't bring in an equal, he will walk.
So, does punishment depend on how much money we make?
Why are you punishing him? So he will see the error in his ways and not do it again? Like he would be alive to understand? It is vengeance, not punishment. And we all know whom vengeance belongs to.
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Sorry, forgot this Jody snippet:
"Anti-death penalty advocates...I am curious how you can fight to keep alive a hardened criminal but fall all over yourselves to make sure we can keep killing innocent life in the mother's womb?"
Isn't this an absolute; a knife that cuts both ways? I believe that the Catholic church feels this way.
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