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dirtbag
climber
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"Capital punishment is not meant to be a deterrent, it is punishment for a crime."
I agree, which means that is done to satisfy a lust for blood. Pretty damned primitive behavior.
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Ouch!
climber
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"Anti-death penalty advocates...I am curious how you can fight to keep alive a hardened criminal but fall all over yourselves to make sure we can keep killing innocent life in the mother's womb?"
It's because we've only had 6,000 years to perfect our methods of inflicting mayhem on humanity.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Chaz wrote:
Tookie's fate is in the hands of a guy called "The Terminator".
I don't think Tookie is going to make it.
Would The Terminator risk being perceived as a bleeding-heart girly-man?
Knott!
All––or nearly all––jokes aside, it should be remembered that the prison record of Dookie™
speaks for itself. He was almost certainly running things from the inside, and spent
5 years in solitary confinement. Gee, I wonder why???? It was only after all those
years that he started renouncing gangs and the gansta lifestyle he championed for decades.
Since someone mentioned being nauseated, I'll say this: It's nauseating to me that while
this guy has become a veritable media-darling; not a fuçking word of compassion
has been uttered for his victims!
Nauseating, indeed...
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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No, Jody, capital punishment is intended both as a punishment and a deterrent. That's the inherent contradiction that creates all the arguments. No way around it as long as we live in 2005.
PS- There is no innnocent life in the womb or anywhere else. All life by its very nature exhibits criminal behavior (i.e. freedom). That is, until we're all reduced to hydrogen atoms (again?) in some dark star.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Bruce, you need to brush up on your chemistry. :)
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10b4me
Trad climber
On that V2 problem at the Happies
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Ken,
tookie is beyond reform. why is it all these people(once they go to prison) start renouncing their past? tookie has no redeeming values. I say fry the bastard.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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What? Argon-Amoninia or some other nice atomic structure under incredible gravitational pressure? Philosophically: all ens becomes non-ens sooner or later. Tookie and us, too.
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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It's nice to know that there is no reform for Tookie because it means that people can't change in life. I haven't recieved that such hope since my days in the Betty Ford Clinic.
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LittlePinkTricam
Trad climber
Providence, RI
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He's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize 5 times. I guess his "humanity" (a Nobel Peace Prize criterion) is more notable than yours.
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Gene
climber
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The death penalty is government sanctioned killing in our names.
It does not deter.
The argument that it provides “closure” (what the hell is that?) to victims’ families is nuts. The alternative to the death penalty is life w/out parole. The final clanging of the jail door the day after the jury returns its verdict provides closure for all involved – closure that is immediate and does not drag on for decades as appeals crawl through the judicial system. Does the execution of some scumbag make the friends and family of the victim feel better? Does it make them happy?
I don’t benefit from the State taking a life in my name – do you? I don’t trust the same government that screws up just about everything it touches when life w/out parole is an option. I don’t buy the “it costs to much to keep them in jail” argument. How much do all the appeals costs? We’re paying for that and it ain’t cheap.
In the case of Tookie, some suggest his role in founding the Crips is reason to deny him a life in the can. If Tookie had chosen another path instead of street gangs, do you actually believe there would be no gangs? Do you think we would have thousands of Compton based Eagle Scouts instead? Fewer street murders (other than the ones he committed)?
What do any of you gain from his death?
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dirtbag
climber
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Excellent post Gene.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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kill kill kill
blood death vengance
an eye for an eye
a tooth for a tooth
let's get that nig...
nothing like a bunch of white guys goin after the big mean black guy, especially the white guys who proclaim all this love of JESUS and his transformative powers... guess this guy just didn't have the right path to redfemption, right? cause if were from your block, and on your path, maybe some of you would be asking about the scant evidence of his actual involvement in the killing (as opposed to the robbery crime).
as for you guys who are saying that he is guilty of all sorts of other stuff, i'd suggest you go out to the ol' library and brush up on the official rules of the US legal system...
nauurally, the guy is toast, but that doesn't begin to address the socio-economic inequities of the administration of the death penalty in this country. you guys that are all about the "fry-em" comments should try being poor and black in the south.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Matt –– why do you assume this is a race issue?
I don't think his race has anything to do with it.
Using your logic, since this "nig" only killed a few chinks,
why should us white redneck good ol' boys give a fuçk?
And regarding the
"socio-economic inequities of the administration of the death penalty in this country",
you do realize (as noted above) that only one of the last dozen executed in Ca have been black?
Also, what percentage of those convicted of murder in the US were black?
Just trying to keep it real...
Edit:
I want to mention that I finished high school at Central High in LA.
(near Crenshaw Blvd––ask Fattrad what that area is like)
I was the only white guy in the school. It was 70% Black (we still said Black back in '78),
and 30% Latino. I got along great with everybody; never had any problems.
However, my history teacher would talk about slavery and the "White Man"
in class while staring directly at me. I felt the requisite amount of guilt for something
I had no part of, and I felt really uncomfortable. Race was never an issue for me!
My friends actually expressed remorse for the teacher's antics, and if anything
made my classmates make an extra effort to reach out to me. It's human nature.
A scumbag is a scumbag. Did you knott see my ranting about John Lennon's killer?
How about the creep who killed Polly Klaus? It's easy to dismiss everything as racist.
It just isn't always that cut and dried.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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nationally, from a public policy standpoint, the racial inequities wrt the death penalty are profound, and there is little room for debate on that.
the guy was convicted by snitching convicts and on other circumstantial evidence. fox news repeatedly puts pictures of him w/ a big fro, flexing his guns and pecks, think that is aimed at public opinion? it's a wink and a nod, one less dangerous negro for all us white folk to fear.
edit- racism does not often take the form of white folks saying out loud, "let's get that negro", nor does it require a people's own awareness that they act differently in different situations.
he has always claimed his innocence in these crimes.
plenty of black men who have been convicted of capitol murder and other heinous crimes have later been exonerated via DNA and other new techniques.
the system is flawed and there is lots of room for error. i find that unacceptable. show me a video of some guy slaughtering people on candid camera, and i might have another opinion.
you get nothing but the testimony that convicted this guy in a case against a white defendant and there is no way the honkey fries.
people that pretend their views are unaffected by the media are dishonest w/ themselves.
i personally think that life w/out parole is just as bad as death, plus it costs me less as a tax payer, it allows for new evidence to free the innocent in the future, and makes the statement to ourselves and others that the act of killing is immoral and wrong.
al you death guys have to rebutt that is that the victims family needs closure?
pretty christian of ya'll...
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Gene
climber
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Jody,
Why are some murderers sentenced to life without parole while others get death? Is that just?
Gene
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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I am curious how you can fight to keep alive a hardened criminal but fall all over yourselves to make sure we can keep killing innocent life in the mother's womb?
I might ask you the inverse, of course. By phrasing it as you have, I get the feeling you're implying that such folks are being inconsistent. BUt then, so are you, by that logic.
For me, personally, there are a couple reasons.
Death Penalty
I think it serves no purpose other than vengeance, which in my mind is an evil petty thing, appropriate for the desires of a child with a simplistic outlook on morality, but wholly inappropriate for what is supposed to be an enlightened state made up of enlightened citizens.
Also, it grants a power to the state, that of ending someone's life, that I believe does not belong with the state.
Abortion
First, I do not consider a fetus, unborn child, whatever you want to call it, of the same value as a person outside the womb (and neither does the law, BTW.) Now, I'm not saying it has no value, and it certainly has a high *potential* value, but then so does any given combination of sperm and egg. Where do you draw the line? At fertilization? Potential mother and father being in the same room together? Is it wrong to refuse to have sex and deny that potential? 1st, 2nd, or 3rd trimester? I draw the line at birth, since its the only clear point that everyone can agree represents true personhood.
Second, I feel quite strongly that a person's right of control over their own body is absolute. Nobody should have the right to over-rule someone's decisions about their own body if that person is of sane and stable mind, whether it be their right to refuse medical treatment, their right to choose a riskier medical treatment, their right to die, and yes, their right to stop carrying a fetus. Yes, that means that the value of the fetus is lost, but that value is not as high as the right of a person to control their own body.
This also provides a big part of my feeling that drug use should be legal. How dare someone else tell me what I can and can't do with the one thing that absolutely and undoubtedly belongs entirely to me, my own body?
You may feel differently, but you asked, and that's my logic.
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Jody
Mountain climber
Templeton, CA
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"Jody,
Why are some murderers sentenced to life without parole while others get death? Is that just?"
No, they should all get the death penalty.
Forest, the law DOES recognize life that is still in the womb...Scott Peterson was convicted of TWO murders, hence the special circumstances that warranted the death penalty.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Forest, the law DOES recognize life that is still in the womb...Scott Peterson was convicted of TWO murders
Well, that's one case that has not been reviewed by an appellate court (maybe it never will be) so that's not really established case law at all.
Abortion is legal. If the law recognized that absolutely as a living person (not just as life. My houseplants are life. it has to be a living person for it to be murder), then abortion would be illegal. It's not.
That's all the response I get out of that nice thought out response I gave you?
hence the special circumstances that warranted the death penalty.
Last time I checked, one premeditated murder, especially of a spouse that you're cheating on, is plenty to get you the death penalty these days.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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laci was something like 8 months pregnant.
i don't know exactly what the law says in this case, but i doubt that the murder of a 2 months pregnant woman would be 2 murders, despite what jody thinks, especially in this state, since everyone knows the right wing wants desperately to define life as beginning at the point of conception.
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