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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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"Andy, it is you who is wrong. The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus between the Mosaic Law and Roman Law. If Jesus told them to stone her, he would be breaking Roman Law. If He told them not to stone her, He would be breaking Mosaic Law. So, he invited them to stone her, providing they were without sin. Pretty wise if you ask me. How is that condemning the death penalty? "
You can rationalize it all you want, but what was the end result?
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. John 8:11
He forgave her. He let her go. That pretty much speaks for itself. Sure, in the process he was clever enough to get out of the trap. But as always, actions speak louder than words. Jesus was without sin, wasn't he? Why didn't he stone her?
Going back to the Sermon on the Mount he says (right after the lord's prayer),
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly
Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their
trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14,15.
He tells you to forgive those who sin against you. In fact, he tells you directly that if you don't then it is absolutely meaningless for you to ask God to forgive you.
Andy
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10b4me
Trad climber
On that V2 problem at the Happies
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I'm Jewish and calling for the bombing/nuking of Iran
another objective viewpoint from fatty
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Who cares what Jesus said? He answered to a higher authority who commanded (so the Bible says) "Thou shalt not kill." I don't remember a footnote on that commandment saying: "Not valid in jurisdictions still enforcing a death penalty."
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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"I can forgive, but that doesn't mean the bad deed should go unpunsihed. It is you who is twisting scriptures Andy. Answer my question...can ANYBODY be punished for ANYTHING according to your logic?"
Jody, I'm not sure I know the answer to this question. I may have to ask it of someone else. I do know that a significant fraction of christians believe that Jesus' words direct them to be pacifist in all things. I understand that practically speaking this may just not be possible. But I do know people who thoroughly believe it and practice it in whatever way they can. MLK was willing to die for his beliefs. The CPT people that got kidnapped in Iraq recently are willing to die for their beliefs. Does it make a difference? In the case of MLK, clearly yes. In the case of the CPT people? Hard to say, maybe not. Should we just not try then? Sorry, that was a bit of a sidetrack.
Here is a possible answer to your question. You may not think it answers your question. I don't know. In my mind the purpose of punishing someone for doing something wrong is to teach them to be a better person. That should certainly be the purpose of a parent in punishing his child, right? In those circumstances, yes someone can be punished for something. In other words, if the intent is to make that individual a better person then you can punish that person. If my parents had never punished me I would be a spoiled brat. But how can you teach someone to be a better person by killing him? He can't be a better person after he is dead. And punishment as a deterrent to others is not the same thing.
"Andy, the Sermon on the Mount is not directed at civil governments and their actions, including capital punishment."
You are right. It is directed at people. But people make up civil govts and people, here specifically, and in civil govts, quote the bible as rationale all the time to support what civil govts do.
And also I see that you are in favor of the separation of church and state. I agree.
"They should give him a gut shot from a 12GA and leave him gurgling to die like he did his victims."
You say you can forgive. When I first read this it surely did not strike me as the remark of a forgiving person. Maybe you could clarify this for me.
Andy
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Ouch!
climber
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The only proof of the Bible is the Bible and it only proves that it is a book. Grimm's Fairy Tales is also a book.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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I just read over ten different articles and not in one of them did he say he felt any regret or remorse for the killings. It be the race card. Who cares if he dies. I just want to watch the stupid black masses riot and destroy their own hoods. It be their own judgement coming down on them. I am going to by a six pack and watch Fox.
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Give me tension'
Trad climber
Somewhere I wish I wasn't
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Dec 10, 2005 - 12:35am PT
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I find it ironic that gangster rapper Snoop Dog has been defending ole Tookie. Yeah-Snoop when are you going to start writing children's books that promote peace-? Won't sell will it? But drugs, sex and the gangster life does and will continue.
Fry Tookie, like all murderous socio-paths should...
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Dec 10, 2005 - 12:13pm PT
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Jody, Catholic (and other) death penalty opponents define murder as the deliberate taking of human life.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 11, 2005 - 07:05pm PT
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I wonder if the angst from some quarters would be as pronounced if it was a middle aged cracker from Alabama that had co-founded a terrorist organization that had been responsible for the murders of ten thousand or more, predominantly poor blacks, over the last twenty five years? Not to mention brutaly murdering at least four people himself.
Have a feeling they'd be dancing at his execution.
`
If Arnie pardons him it will be proof that steroids really do shrink your balls.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Dec 11, 2005 - 07:52pm PT
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When Tookie is killed he becomes a Marter. Pure and simple.
Everything an individual does results in some form of Karma. What type of Karma that is, depends somewhat on that individual.
It is the same with the Fates. You do not know what the Fates have in mind. You may be robbing them, you may be providing. You do what you do, you role the bones and wait. You cannot say this is good, that is bad, this is nothing, only the Fates know.
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Tuan DeLusion
Social climber
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Dec 11, 2005 - 08:09pm PT
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My name is fates.
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CorporateDog
climber
Middle California
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Dec 11, 2005 - 09:08pm PT
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Okay - I'll bite -
Dead Tookie - Yea or Nay?
Yea - of course, the jury decided so and the law says GO.
Why - revenge of course...and some small token for the families of the victims.
Deterrant - hell no - crimes of passion CAN NOT be deterred.
As for the "What Would Jesus Do" argument....
Jesus would sign a PR contract with the William L. Morris Agency and immediately start working the talk show circuit before inking a multi-million dollar deal to host his own show on Fox.
Next would come the "dating Jennifer Anniston" stories in People and "Mary Magdelen Had A Love Child" exposes on the Access Hollywood Channel.
Ultimately, Jesus will be shot to death outside of Spago's by a 34 Year Old Right Wing Born Again Christian Fundamentalist Who Still Lives With Mom.
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Ditch Trad
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2005 - 12:23am PT
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"You don't see "Christian Fundamentalists" advocating the extermination of all "non-Christian Fundamentalists"."
You just aren't reading the Good Book close enough....
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
"
Don't forget, Christians can never be held responsible (Romans 8:33) (Cuz' gawd is, ultimately).
-So, you got that going for you.
Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. (There's a good justification instead of your 'murder'obfuscation...)
Check out the Army of "Gawd" website...http://www.armyofgod.com/
You'll be interested in particular...
http://www.armyofgod.com/OfficerFriendly.html
Also, check Christian Identity, good followers of "PoP" (prince of peace) who disprove your statement...
new tenet gaining popularity among some radical Christian Identity believers justifies the use of violence if it is perpetrated in order to punish violators of God's law, as found in the Bible and interpreted by Christian Identity ministers and adherents. This includes killing interracial couples, abortionists, prostitutes and homosexuals, burning pornography stores, and robbing banks and perpetrating frauds to undermine the "usury system.
Christian Identity adherents believe that God will use what they believe is the chosen race as his weapons to battle the forces of evil. Christian Identity followers believe they are among those chosen by God to wage this battle during Armageddon and they will be the last line of defense for the white race and Christian America. "
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=christian+identity
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 12, 2005 - 04:56pm PT
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It has always seemed very strange to me that the very same people that are adamantly opposed to the State killing people via execution have no problem whatsoever with the State stealing their money via taxation. "Thou shalt not murder, Thou shalt not steal".
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Wholly Mammoth
Social climber
that little dot on the map
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Dec 12, 2005 - 05:19pm PT
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Mytropy brought up an excellent point --
Tookie has never admitted guilt, or displayed remorse for his actions, and 12 hours from now, he will still remain mute about his crimes. The looser killed in cold blood because he was a self-proclaimed thug, and if anything Tookie should know that there are two types of thugs: those who kill, and those who are killed. No you can't spend a life in jail, waxing poetic about gang life, and mean a damn, not in this society. Some of you should read Hammurabi's Code to realize Tookie's punishment could be worse!
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Ouch!
climber
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Dec 12, 2005 - 06:14pm PT
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Fat, the only evidence that supports your contention is when the convicted is taken from the verdict to the gallows and whacked posthaste. Not 25 years later. Of course, that leaves no wiggle room for correcting errors or misconduct by prosecutors and cops. Tough question either way. Justice and revenge are the same word. Just different spelling.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Victorville, CA
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Dec 12, 2005 - 06:20pm PT
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Rainbow:
fat did not say that the punishment should be different.
He said that the punishment would not be a deterrent for crimes of passion. read it again.
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