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Messages 1 - 117 of total 117 in this topic
Linconstien

Trad climber
CA
Dec 7, 2005 - 09:33pm PT
Hey Fagrad

bet you're a very white middel aged male, got milk? It's not lke the LAPD has ever tried to frame a Black Man before huh?

As to a jury of his peers? the DA was canned from his job for kicking Blacks off of a number of jurys, there was one dark skinned person on tookie's jury they dispsed of the two Black people yea a jury of his peers
Wholly Mammoth

Social climber
that little dot on the map
Dec 7, 2005 - 09:44pm PT
Lincolnstien:

Whatever.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Dec 7, 2005 - 09:45pm PT
" Cement+ Chain + Deep Water = Tookie Would Die "
Now he's Grigori Rasputin?
Didn't work the first time,
or did it?
crshbrn84

Trad climber
west hills, ca
Dec 7, 2005 - 10:40pm PT
wow reading this makes me sick that you guys are associated with climbing. Political posts are one thing, but you guys have problems
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Dec 7, 2005 - 10:42pm PT
Yeah, a problem with despising murderous gang members.
crshbrn84

Trad climber
west hills, ca
Dec 7, 2005 - 10:43pm PT
i have compassion for the victims but a bunch of climbers calling for blood, i dont care whos, kinda irks me
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Dec 7, 2005 - 10:52pm PT
He admitted to robbing a 7-11. After he had the cash, he shot the clerk anyway, just to watch him die.

Oh, and he started a street gang called the Crips. Maybe you've heard of them.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Dec 7, 2005 - 11:14pm PT
"written as I sit here in panty hose"

did we really need that picture?

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 7, 2005 - 11:28pm PT
rajuangeneesh,

Shock requires the ability to pounce on the moment for maximum impact and then step back and let it work, whereas relentless permutations that simply pummel your audience have the opposite effect - that and masturbation, however proud, is typically a private affair...
akcIimber

climber
Eagle River, AK
Dec 7, 2005 - 11:31pm PT
They should put womens underwear over his head and have a naked woman holding a dog on a leash let the dog growl in his face. That'll torture him.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 12:23am PT
Some of you guys sound like a bunch of gleeful goddamned ghouls.



Those of you in favor of this affront to civilized peoples should be forced to watch it.
Loom

climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
Dec 8, 2005 - 12:43am PT
Kinda weird what some people like to jack off to.
WoodyS

Trad climber
Riverside
Dec 8, 2005 - 12:52am PT
He's a sadistic sociopath and I wouldn't mind watching him hung, burned at the stake or whatever. I believe in public executions.
Further, there are certain crimes--violent rape, sadistic murder, child molestation and treason as examples-- where the death sentence should be painful and public. If that makes me a barbarian in the eyes of some, good. Then, I guess I'm a barbarian and pleased to be so.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:19am PT
Well, interesting posts.

It certainly begs the question:

"What would Jesus do?"

The answers certainly separate those who pretend to be Christians, from those who use His name in vain, when it is convenient to do so.

What is the Jesus question all about? Without being all religious, or all Christian, I think it is a provocative question about what makes up a "superior" or "evolved", or a "civilized" person, rather than a troglodyte.

But lets look at the specific case, as one should do. This fellow has been locked up for 20 years, and during this time, he made a choice: to reform. As a society, it should be apparent, that we have the opportunity to react to reform. Most criminals do not reform. When we release them, as most are, do we want them to be motivated to reform....or to be better criminals? Do we want the long termers to have no motivation to behave, or do we want them to perfect their killing skills in prison, prior to release.

There is quite an audience for this execution. What is the lesson we want all prisoners to take from all this? Is it too much to ask that people actually think about the consequences of their actions?

It is stated that this fellow now works to prevent youth from becoming involved in gangs. I think that is a good thing, don't you? Setting aside the effectiveness of his attempts, do we want to reduce the involvement of youth in gangs? Is our more advanced, enlightened method, being demonstrated so that the Iraqies can see the benefits of being our subjects, to use the "eye for an eye" fundamentalist approach? Do we want to make him a martyr in the eyes of gangs?

Aren't we tired enough of fundamentalist approaches to things, and martyrs affecting our society?

Are we an advanced society, or just another bunch of thugs?
George_W_Bush

Big Wall climber
Crawford, TX
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:30am PT
WWJD? Have him stoned to death on the spot instead of clogging up our prison system for 20 years.
Landgolier

climber
the flatness
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:45am PT
Could you guys come again on why wanting to commit violent acts against a defenseless person, regardless of who they are or what they have done, makes you anything but a coward?
Ouch!

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:05am PT
"They should give him a gut shot from a 12GA and leave him gurgling to die like he did his victims"


That must be from the Third Testament. The Bible written for and by Neocons.
Norman Clydesdale

climber
Mule capital of the world
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:12am PT
Tookie + Rajmit for a cell mate = Tookie will be begging for the gas chamber
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Dec 8, 2005 - 04:11am PT
Thanks for the laugh, Jody and Clyde! Fattrad’s got my vote, should he ever run for office…

Nice to see those who have a clue speak up.

They should have capped his ass back in ’79. But the system doesn’t work as well as it should, or could. It is inefficient. San Quentin was a familiar sight from my regular climbing spots where I began. But we are all in the outside world, and have no idea what it is like in the inside world. Heard a figure today of ~ $30,000 per year to keep guys like Tookie around. Don’t know how accurate that is, but, at ~25 years in prison that adds up to three-quarters of a million dollars, of tax payer’s money. (Economists (Fattrad?) feel free to correct my figures for inflation, etc… Like I have a clue…) And that’s just one criminal. (btw – where does the name “Tookie” come from? His middle name? Or is he related to my bro Chewbacca, a relative of the Wookie family?)


What could social programs (for you Libs) or BORDER PATROL (shoot anything that moves in the 5-mile wide "Death Zone") do with a half-mill? Or a hundred-grand? Per criminal? How many criminals are being supported in prison (state and federal) by our tax dollars right now? How many of ‘em should have been capped on scene, way back when?

Would-be hurricane victim becomes Reckless Brutalitist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams

Spare Change?
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/orfp97.htm


A PUBLIC EXECUTION? Do I have to pay to get in? Will they have one of those old-style guillotines where he gets the good old chopenzie? Or does he get to Ride the Lightning or feel the truth serum? Or how about some good ol’ al Qaeda torture for all of you PC folks? Make ‘em squirm like you did to the little insects and bugs when you were a little kid? (For those who felt (and still feel the need) to squish little bugs (or hunt animals for sport... twerps…)). Will they be serving beer?

Arnold will be the biggest pussy in history, should he give in to the cries of the inept. Karma will catch up with him and his dreams will be filled with the revenge of every movie character that he ever mowed down or stomped on. Hope he pulls through

I don’t have much tolerance for murderers with shotguns. It hits a little too close to home.

Nuke the KILLER!!!
NUKE all of ‘em!!!

(to put it politely, graphics aside………………..)
Chaz

Trad climber
So. Cal.
Dec 8, 2005 - 05:47am PT
Tookie's fate is in the hands of a guy called "The Terminator".


I don't think Tookie is going to make it.
Chaz

Trad climber
So. Cal.
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:09am PT
I'd like to see a partnership between the Department of Corrections and the State Lottery Commission. We have over 600 guys on death row just in California, and it's costing us a fortune to house and feed these losers. We can re-coup some of that money by making executions into a lottery style game. Instead of dragging out one guy at a time and executing him, we could showcase five or six who are up for it, and have some sort of competition to determine who gets the needle. Maybe they can draw straws, play rock-paper-scissors, spelling bee, or my favorite, Death Row Jeopardy. The Lottery people will oversee wagering on the outcome, raising money to offset the cost of keeping these rat-bastards locked up awaiting their big day. This can all be televised on Saturday nights, right after the Big Spin. That way we get to see the reactions on the faces of the winners and the unlucky loser as they find out who gets executed that night. Instead of having a chance to speak some last words, the guy strapped onto the gurney can be told "thanks for helping our schools".
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:42am PT
Wow, whatever else, that pic of him in the wikipedia link shows that he had a set of guns (no pun intended). Arnie was right, look at them arms.
Hootervillian

climber
Hooterville
Dec 8, 2005 - 10:23am PT
Further, there are certain crimes--violent rape, sadistic murder, child molestation and treason as examples--

interesting fervor developing from the revenge business. i guess the reasons above might be why there are women and children strapping explosives to their bodies to get even with the perpatrators of these atrocities. I think most of ya'll are right. the perps deserve it in a big way. fundamentalist extremists seem to come in all shapes, sizes and colors. where does it stop? don't we all deserve such a fate by proxy?

the 'govt' need be out of the revenge business. you want to put Tookie in a room and let the nearest closest relative to the victim decide and then live with that decision go ahead.

If pulling Ezekial from a Tarantino movie is on, then why not that woman (people) deserves her (their) revenge, and we deserve to die. Brother Bud

Good luck on your pilot to 'Running Man'....


Lovesgasolines' comments on role models are spot on... Let's apply'em from the 'top down' shall we....

Role models are not individuals whose actions we need question.

Role models do not have a heavy haze of doubt and expediency clouding their legacy.

Role models’ deeds are not entangled in equivocal motives.




Ed. but wait, what about compassion for the innocent victims. Hypocrite by Proxy huh...Love a juicy rationalization in the morning, smells like superiority.

maybe education and liberty of a people was tookie's plan all along.... you know, you have to break a few eggs....

I'm guessing a passel 'o convenience store clerks were disintegrated in Fallujah, no matter, it was for way more than 30 bucks.


Tookie? just another homicidal sociopath, i offer no excuses, just looking for a little continuity in the application of justice and morality.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 11:27am PT
Lovesgasoline, Locker, others,

Tookie is not a role model. He is a cold blooded killer. Maybe he reformed into a decent person, maybe not, I don't care. But it sickens me that our society caves in to our lust for a blood revenge and kills people when alternatives are available. It's only slightly less barbaric than the acts committed by the Tookies of the world.
AndyG

climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 8, 2005 - 11:59am PT
jody said: "They should give him a gut shot from a 12GA and leave him gurgling to die like he did his victims."

Yeah, that's a christian attitude.



lovegasoline said: ""The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
Ezekiel 25:17.
"

FYI, this is not a quote from the bible, this is a quote from a movie about hit men and drug dealers.

THIS is a quote from the bible:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.....43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? - Matthew 5:38,39,43-46. (NIV)

If you are christian then Jesus' teachings should supersede those of the old testament where they contradict. Particularly when Jesus specifically said that they should supersede the old law.

Andy
akclimber

Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
Dec 8, 2005 - 12:18pm PT
I don't understand why the "black community" rallies behind slimes like Tookie and they gang up and lambast outstanding citizens like Clarence Thomas and Condoleeza Rice. Rather perplexing to me. If they would spend their energy building up people like Rice and Thomas rather than coming to the defense of a slimeball like Williams, the "black leaders" would have more credibility.
up2top

Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
Dec 8, 2005 - 12:37pm PT
DMT, if dookie is executed, he will be only the second black man in the last 30 years executed by the State of California. During that time, there have been 15 other executions. By and large, your socioeconomic status/minority argument does hold true across the country, but not so in California.

If someone kills my father, or my wife, or my kid I would accept no less than the death penalty for the assailant as true justice. Vengance is part of justice for the victims of murder. In fact, I'd be happy to pull the trigger/throw the switch/drop the canister myself.

Ed
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Dec 8, 2005 - 12:51pm PT
Interesting thing, the death penalty.

Is it justice?

Is it vengeance?

Is it a deterrant?

From the statements above I would say that within this crowd it is better than 90% vengeance. If so, it should be public, and everyone should be forced to watch, even little kids. Then it might become a deterrent. Who knows?

If it is a deterrent, where are the numbers that support this?

Is it justice then? Lets start with say, Jesus?

The long process is simply a legal one. Automatic appeal. Back and forth to the governor's desk if not the Supreme Court. It is supposed to work that way so a mistake hasn't been made. Tim McVeigh wanted to die right off, but they forced him to live for years, for the automatic checks and balances to take place, even though he waived them all.

Has a mistake ever been made?

Is it morally wrong to take a human life under any circumstances? Is it morally incoherent to not use embryos for stem cell research, yet gleefully celebrate the end of a human life, no matter how reprehensible? Is that a consistent train of thought?

How about gleefully celebrating Ronald Reagan's death? Could Alzheimers be cured from stem cell research? Does Nancy Reagan think so?

All I am doing is asking questions here and hurray for the one who has answers.

And AKclimber. They don't have capital punishment in Alaska.
ralph_teh_klimber

climber
ralph town
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:15pm PT
in a perfect neo-con utopia all brown non-xhristians would be eliminated. i really enjoy the situational hate, it really makes things easy. there is no balance only a one sided thought process that allows for self rightousness no matter what the need be.

kill tookie, kill gwb, kill barney and kill that f*#king harry potter as#@&%e!

funny how flourescent lighting and recycled office air can make so many wannbe climbers feel so tough from a far. get tough go visit tookie and call him the nigger that YOU know he is.

hang nails the internet climbers most fretful injury.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:27pm PT
Fattrad, that's not true about Ralph. He does know at least two things: Barney and Harry Potter must both die.
TradIsGood

Trad climber
Gunks end of country
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:36pm PT
Let's just assume that DMT is both a climber, and he is innocent (whatever that means).

Should we allow him to decide to climb a difficult and dangerous route. If he makes a mistake he might cause the death of himself and his partner (also innocent), leaving their families unsupported. I am not willing to do that. Life without climbing.

So DMT / jury-judicial system has a decision to make. Can / should we trust either one to be able to make the right decision? Keep in mind that in either case there is a non-zero probability of an error resulting in the death of an innocent and a cost to society.

Tradboy

Social climber
Valley
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:37pm PT
My views on the death penalty are still somewhat mixed, but I'd like to add to the questions that BASE posed. Perhaps somebody could provide answers that provides for more enlightenment beyond describing how you'd like to pump someone full of pellets.

Why is it that we are only one of the few industrialized countries that still has the death penalty? Is there something that these other countries realize that we don't?

Why is it that the conservatives on this forum took the stance that I expected them to take?

If I know for sure that someone kills my wife, and I commit vigilante justice by killing that person, I will still be charged with murder. If this person is killed via the death penalty, it still meets the definition of a murder in my opinion, though one may argue that the definition has unlawful in there somewhere. Same end, but different means, so political affiliations aside, how is one means more moral than the other?
Wholly Mammoth

Social climber
that little dot on the map
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:43pm PT
http://static.flickr.com/16/20925859_5d8dbeaaa3_o.jpg

Looks like a Nobel winner to me!
Ed Bannister

Mountain climber
Victorville, CA
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:46pm PT
Has anyone noticed that this thread has the longest replies??

Unsoeld makes a bad choice, dies in Kadaver gap.

Slater takes a rest day when he could have summited, dies the day after, descending K2 when he is stormed off.

Why would any climber argue about consequences?

Foster a subculture, and lead by the example of murder for sport.
He should have been executed some 18 years ago, closure for the families, a possible deterrent for others, who knows haw many of his compatriots would not have committed additional murders if he had died within a year or so. How many lives were affected by our systems failure to not just try, but execute in a timely manner?

Most seeking justice are not bloodmongers, they just know that evil must be opposed for good to prevail. To suggest otherwise is to let the worst determine the conditions for all, that might even encroach on your trip to starbucks.

Forest

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:47pm PT
They should give him a gut shot from a 12GA and leave him gurgling to die like he did his victims.

Wow, that's so .... christian of you.

What happened to infinite forgiveness and compassion? What happened to looking at how Jesus would handle the situation? And you wonder why some people see certain incarnations of these religions as so much hypocrisy that's just there to make the masses feel better about themselves while they go on being just as immoral as the heathen masses.

Now, I'm not calling for him to be set free, for sure. He unarguably committed a crime so heinous that he has no business ever being a part of society again. But there's a big difference between protecting society and pursuing vengeance, which is all the death penalty is about. "eye for an eye makes everyone blind" and all that.


don't understand why the "black community" rallies behind slimes like Tookie and they gang up and lambast outstanding citizens like Clarence Thomas and Condoleeza Rice.

Why in the world would they support people who've done so much and supported people who've done so much to counteract what is commonly perceived as good things for the black community (think anti-affirmative action, pro huge cuts to medicaid, child care, etc.)? They should support them just because they're black?
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:56pm PT
Capital punishment would act as a deterrent if the execution were carried out 6 weeks to 6 months after sentencing. Nevertheless, 20 years on death row is quite a punishment in itself, but doesn’t do much to stop people from committing murder in the first degree. No real good answers as long as the criminal justice system is trapped between punishment and reformation (as it has been since the late 19th century).
TradIsGood

Trad climber
Gunks end of country
Dec 8, 2005 - 01:57pm PT
Tradboy - Why is it that we are only one of the few industrialized countries that still has the death penalty?
Does it matter? Because the others don't? We are also the strongest politically and economically. We also probably have the largest level of immigration of those same countries. Does this mean they know something we don't? Red herring argument.

Is there something that these other countries realize that we don't? Same. Maybe it is what they don't realize.

Why is it that the conservatives on this forum took the stance that I expected them to take? More Red herring, not to mention perhaps mislabeling of people.
TradIsGood

Trad climber
Gunks end of country
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:12pm PT
OK, Dingus. You escape with a plea bargain. LWC.

Please send me your rack.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:22pm PT
Jody, you are not consistent.

If it were punishment you were after, we would all stake him to an anthill. Right before he died, we would take him off, heal him and repeat the process for the rest of his life. Ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime. Punishment should always exceed the crime, but for murder, there is nothing greater than the equal.

Seriously, how do you justify that it is OK to put someone to death, and be against, say, stemcell research. How can you say to the world that you would shoot someone in the gut to die slowly and be a consistent Christian. I just don't get this.

One of my best friends is an ex/DA now criminal attorney. We were talking about the death penalty the other day, and he said certain attorneys specialized in it. If you could not pay for said attorney you are likely f*#ked. If you, like OJ, could afford a million dollar attorney, you could commit murder and likely walk. He said that is why poor people fry. They can't afford a Johnny Cochran type defense.

He said the same thing about Tom Delay, that he has a VERY good lawyer, and if the state didn't bring in an equal, he will walk.

So, does punishment depend on how much money we make?

Why are you punishing him? So he will see the error in his ways and not do it again? Like he would be alive to understand? It is vengeance, not punishment. And we all know whom vengeance belongs to.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:25pm PT
Sorry, forgot this Jody snippet:

"Anti-death penalty advocates...I am curious how you can fight to keep alive a hardened criminal but fall all over yourselves to make sure we can keep killing innocent life in the mother's womb?"

Isn't this an absolute; a knife that cuts both ways? I believe that the Catholic church feels this way.
Ouch!

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:30pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:38pm PT
"Capital punishment is not meant to be a deterrent, it is punishment for a crime."

I agree, which means that is done to satisfy a lust for blood. Pretty damned primitive behavior.
Ouch!

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:43pm PT
"Anti-death penalty advocates...I am curious how you can fight to keep alive a hardened criminal but fall all over yourselves to make sure we can keep killing innocent life in the mother's womb?"

It's because we've only had 6,000 years to perfect our methods of inflicting mayhem on humanity.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:49pm PT
Chaz wrote:

Tookie's fate is in the hands of a guy called "The Terminator".

I don't think Tookie is going to make it.




Would The Terminator risk being perceived as a bleeding-heart girly-man?

Knott!

All––or nearly all––jokes aside, it should be remembered that the prison record of Dookie
speaks for itself. He was almost certainly running things from the inside, and spent
5 years in solitary confinement. Gee, I wonder why???? It was only after all those
years that he started renouncing gangs and the gansta lifestyle he championed for decades.

Since someone mentioned being nauseated, I'll say this: It's nauseating to me that while
this guy has become a veritable media-darling; not a fuçking word of compassion
has been uttered for his victims!

Nauseating, indeed...
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 8, 2005 - 02:54pm PT
No, Jody, capital punishment is intended both as a punishment and a deterrent. That's the inherent contradiction that creates all the arguments. No way around it as long as we live in 2005.

PS- There is no innnocent life in the womb or anywhere else. All life by its very nature exhibits criminal behavior (i.e. freedom). That is, until we're all reduced to hydrogen atoms (again?) in some dark star.
TradIsGood

Trad climber
Gunks end of country
Dec 8, 2005 - 03:00pm PT
Bruce, you need to brush up on your chemistry. :)
10b4me

Trad climber
On that V2 problem at the Happies
Dec 8, 2005 - 03:04pm PT
Ken,

tookie is beyond reform. why is it all these people(once they go to prison) start renouncing their past? tookie has no redeeming values. I say fry the bastard.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 8, 2005 - 03:06pm PT
What? Argon-Amoninia or some other nice atomic structure under incredible gravitational pressure? Philosophically: all ens becomes non-ens sooner or later. Tookie and us, too.
James

Social climber
My Subconcious
Dec 8, 2005 - 03:13pm PT
It's nice to know that there is no reform for Tookie because it means that people can't change in life. I haven't recieved that such hope since my days in the Betty Ford Clinic.
LittlePinkTricam

Trad climber
Providence, RI
Dec 8, 2005 - 03:29pm PT
He's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize 5 times. I guess his "humanity" (a Nobel Peace Prize criterion) is more notable than yours.
Gene

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 03:30pm PT
The death penalty is government sanctioned killing in our names.

It does not deter.

The argument that it provides “closure” (what the hell is that?) to victims’ families is nuts. The alternative to the death penalty is life w/out parole. The final clanging of the jail door the day after the jury returns its verdict provides closure for all involved – closure that is immediate and does not drag on for decades as appeals crawl through the judicial system. Does the execution of some scumbag make the friends and family of the victim feel better? Does it make them happy?

I don’t benefit from the State taking a life in my name – do you? I don’t trust the same government that screws up just about everything it touches when life w/out parole is an option. I don’t buy the “it costs to much to keep them in jail” argument. How much do all the appeals costs? We’re paying for that and it ain’t cheap.

In the case of Tookie, some suggest his role in founding the Crips is reason to deny him a life in the can. If Tookie had chosen another path instead of street gangs, do you actually believe there would be no gangs? Do you think we would have thousands of Compton based Eagle Scouts instead? Fewer street murders (other than the ones he committed)?

What do any of you gain from his death?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 03:32pm PT
Excellent post Gene.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Dec 8, 2005 - 03:40pm PT
kill kill kill
blood death vengance
an eye for an eye
a tooth for a tooth


let's get that nig...




nothing like a bunch of white guys goin after the big mean black guy, especially the white guys who proclaim all this love of JESUS and his transformative powers... guess this guy just didn't have the right path to redfemption, right? cause if were from your block, and on your path, maybe some of you would be asking about the scant evidence of his actual involvement in the killing (as opposed to the robbery crime).


as for you guys who are saying that he is guilty of all sorts of other stuff, i'd suggest you go out to the ol' library and brush up on the official rules of the US legal system...


nauurally, the guy is toast, but that doesn't begin to address the socio-economic inequities of the administration of the death penalty in this country. you guys that are all about the "fry-em" comments should try being poor and black in the south.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
Dec 8, 2005 - 04:03pm PT
Matt –– why do you assume this is a race issue?
I don't think his race has anything to do with it.

Using your logic, since this "nig" only killed a few chinks,
why should us white redneck good ol' boys give a fuçk?

And regarding the

"socio-economic inequities of the administration of the death penalty in this country",

you do realize (as noted above) that only one of the last dozen executed in Ca have been black?
Also, what percentage of those convicted of murder in the US were black?

Just trying to keep it real...

Edit:

I want to mention that I finished high school at Central High in LA.
(near Crenshaw Blvd––ask Fattrad what that area is like)

I was the only white guy in the school. It was 70% Black (we still said Black back in '78),
and 30% Latino. I got along great with everybody; never had any problems.
However, my history teacher would talk about slavery and the "White Man"
in class while staring directly at me. I felt the requisite amount of guilt for something
I had no part of, and I felt really uncomfortable. Race was never an issue for me!
My friends actually expressed remorse for the teacher's antics, and if anything
made my classmates make an extra effort to reach out to me. It's human nature.

A scumbag is a scumbag. Did you knott see my ranting about John Lennon's killer?
How about the creep who killed Polly Klaus? It's easy to dismiss everything as racist.

It just isn't always that cut and dried.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Dec 8, 2005 - 04:25pm PT
nationally, from a public policy standpoint, the racial inequities wrt the death penalty are profound, and there is little room for debate on that.

the guy was convicted by snitching convicts and on other circumstantial evidence. fox news repeatedly puts pictures of him w/ a big fro, flexing his guns and pecks, think that is aimed at public opinion? it's a wink and a nod, one less dangerous negro for all us white folk to fear.
edit- racism does not often take the form of white folks saying out loud, "let's get that negro", nor does it require a people's own awareness that they act differently in different situations.

he has always claimed his innocence in these crimes.
plenty of black men who have been convicted of capitol murder and other heinous crimes have later been exonerated via DNA and other new techniques.

the system is flawed and there is lots of room for error. i find that unacceptable. show me a video of some guy slaughtering people on candid camera, and i might have another opinion.



you get nothing but the testimony that convicted this guy in a case against a white defendant and there is no way the honkey fries.

people that pretend their views are unaffected by the media are dishonest w/ themselves.

i personally think that life w/out parole is just as bad as death, plus it costs me less as a tax payer, it allows for new evidence to free the innocent in the future, and makes the statement to ourselves and others that the act of killing is immoral and wrong.

al you death guys have to rebutt that is that the victims family needs closure?
pretty christian of ya'll...
Gene

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 04:26pm PT
Jody,

Why are some murderers sentenced to life without parole while others get death? Is that just?

Gene
Forest

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Dec 8, 2005 - 04:31pm PT
I am curious how you can fight to keep alive a hardened criminal but fall all over yourselves to make sure we can keep killing innocent life in the mother's womb?

I might ask you the inverse, of course. By phrasing it as you have, I get the feeling you're implying that such folks are being inconsistent. BUt then, so are you, by that logic.

For me, personally, there are a couple reasons.

Death Penalty
I think it serves no purpose other than vengeance, which in my mind is an evil petty thing, appropriate for the desires of a child with a simplistic outlook on morality, but wholly inappropriate for what is supposed to be an enlightened state made up of enlightened citizens.

Also, it grants a power to the state, that of ending someone's life, that I believe does not belong with the state.

Abortion
First, I do not consider a fetus, unborn child, whatever you want to call it, of the same value as a person outside the womb (and neither does the law, BTW.) Now, I'm not saying it has no value, and it certainly has a high *potential* value, but then so does any given combination of sperm and egg. Where do you draw the line? At fertilization? Potential mother and father being in the same room together? Is it wrong to refuse to have sex and deny that potential? 1st, 2nd, or 3rd trimester? I draw the line at birth, since its the only clear point that everyone can agree represents true personhood.

Second, I feel quite strongly that a person's right of control over their own body is absolute. Nobody should have the right to over-rule someone's decisions about their own body if that person is of sane and stable mind, whether it be their right to refuse medical treatment, their right to choose a riskier medical treatment, their right to die, and yes, their right to stop carrying a fetus. Yes, that means that the value of the fetus is lost, but that value is not as high as the right of a person to control their own body.

This also provides a big part of my feeling that drug use should be legal. How dare someone else tell me what I can and can't do with the one thing that absolutely and undoubtedly belongs entirely to me, my own body?

You may feel differently, but you asked, and that's my logic.
Jody

Mountain climber
Templeton, CA
Dec 8, 2005 - 04:38pm PT
"Jody,

Why are some murderers sentenced to life without parole while others get death? Is that just?"


No, they should all get the death penalty.

Forest, the law DOES recognize life that is still in the womb...Scott Peterson was convicted of TWO murders, hence the special circumstances that warranted the death penalty.
Forest

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Dec 8, 2005 - 04:46pm PT
Forest, the law DOES recognize life that is still in the womb...Scott Peterson was convicted of TWO murders

Well, that's one case that has not been reviewed by an appellate court (maybe it never will be) so that's not really established case law at all.

Abortion is legal. If the law recognized that absolutely as a living person (not just as life. My houseplants are life. it has to be a living person for it to be murder), then abortion would be illegal. It's not.

That's all the response I get out of that nice thought out response I gave you?

hence the special circumstances that warranted the death penalty.

Last time I checked, one premeditated murder, especially of a spouse that you're cheating on, is plenty to get you the death penalty these days.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Dec 8, 2005 - 04:55pm PT
laci was something like 8 months pregnant.
i don't know exactly what the law says in this case, but i doubt that the murder of a 2 months pregnant woman would be 2 murders, despite what jody thinks, especially in this state, since everyone knows the right wing wants desperately to define life as beginning at the point of conception.
Gene

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 05:28pm PT
No, they should all get the death penalty.

But some don’t. Therefore the current system is not just.
Ed Bannister

Mountain climber
Victorville, CA
Dec 8, 2005 - 06:15pm PT
Contemplate;
The same person opposed to the death of a serial killer, is for the death of the defenseless and innocent unborn.

Whether or not you agree, or disagree, isn't that just odd?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 06:25pm PT
But FOR the life of the mom.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Dec 8, 2005 - 06:35pm PT
nobody is "for the death of the defenseless and innocent unborn", some are against forcing their ideas of morality upon others.



contemplate:
if so-called pro-lifers are so opposed to abortion, why don't they advocate for social programs that would limit the demand for the practice in the 1st place?
Forest

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Dec 8, 2005 - 06:39pm PT
Contemplate;
The same person opposed to the death of a serial killer, is for the death of the defenseless and innocent unborn.

Whether or not you agree, or disagree, isn't that just odd?


Certainly no more odd than the fact that the same person fighting so hard to save the lives of the unborn are happy to abandon them upon their birth, let them grow up in horrible slum, where they barely get an education, have no health care, etc etc; and then that same person is happy to see the individual put to death when the sh#t finally hits the fan.

And definitely no more odd than that the same person who wants to see abortion eliminated will insist on pushing for "abstinence only" education which has been shown time and again to be far far less effective in reducing unwanted pregnancies (which are overwhelmingly the type that end in abortion) and transmission of STDs than eduction of the proper use of condoms and other forms of birth-control.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 06:39pm PT
Because they are a tangled bundle of sexual repression and abhor providing contraceptives that will enable people to make free choices about their sexual practices. It goes against their narrow, medieval, theocratic vision of the world.
Shack

Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
Dec 8, 2005 - 06:59pm PT
So the bleeding heart message to the world is...

Murder as many people as you want, in as greusome and heinous way as you want and when we catch you, your punushment will be, we will throw you in jail and give you free food, clothes and shelter, all at taxpayer expense for the rest of your life!
We will even have sympathy for you if your a minority, poor, stupid,
uneducated, lazy, or any combo of these.
We will always doubt the "evidence" or assume it's societies fault.
(There's just not enough "anti-murder" social programs!)
To really get some sympathy, just fake that you've become a Christian. Then even the liberals who can't stand Christians and
spend way too much time trying to put them down, will suddenly
claim that your new found Christianity is "proof" that you "have changed" (implying for the better...I know, it doesn't make sense, just play along).
If your really lucky, and maybe write some kids books or start "denouncing" crime etc....you just might get nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize!
Hahahahahaha!!! Can you believe that?
Suckers!!!
But don't worry, we wouldn't do something so"wrong" as use the death penalty.
We are so much more "enlightened" than that.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:08pm PT
Newsflash: having the state murder people will not make it better.
Shack

Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:10pm PT
It's a jury of your peers not "the state".
The people voted for the death penalty.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:13pm PT
Okay, having people murder people will not make it better.
Forest

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:28pm PT
Gene wrote...

"What do any of you gain from his death?"


Answer.........One less Tookie


Well, no. I don't think anyone's seriously lobbying for him to be released. So, regardless, society has one less Tookie. It's just a question of whether you kill him or not.

And good job not stereotyping us liberals up there.
Shack

Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:37pm PT
We gain an empty cell, ready to house another criminal.
Overcrowding is such a problem.
WBraun

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:39pm PT
What does one gain from his death?

Capital punishment relieves the murderer from the karma he has created. If capital punishment is not enacted the murderer will be reborn and murdered the same way he did in his past life.

Society that enacts capital punishment under the law of the courts and the executor do not constitute murder nor does it incur any karma.

Just like a soldier in war under the command of his superior who kills the enemy does not constitute murder nor does it incur karma.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:43pm PT
Okay Locker, it is a lawful killing, but the malice aforethought part of the definition applies and is the most troubling aspect.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:46pm PT
Sure, spending life in prison is such a cake walk.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:51pm PT
Locker, I don't care about Tookie. I care about us. I care about the fact that having us kill or torture people to satisfy some primal, gut level blood lust debases us and makes us cruel. It sickens me to be a part of that. We should be better people than that.
Hootervillian

climber
Hooterville
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:58pm PT
If you want to fight for life, fight where it really makes sense.

exactly locker, now can we all think of a place where a slew of innocent people are dying and gonna continue dying, where not only may we have culpability, but a chance to affect a change that might save alot of just regular 'ol people like you and me.

One less tookie?

creating Martyr's by acting out a revenge based justice system for the purpose of public opinion gives you 5 more tookies, 10 more Dahmer's and 1000 more Osama's.

Great idea, parade him around the MSM so all of us are 'up in arms' over how good he's got it for being a murdering bastard. plenty of lead in time, make sure everybody's 'informed'.
Then wack him.
Sound strategy for creating a martyr.

now why do you think that is?



Ed. no hints FT, you already know, you started this thread.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 07:59pm PT
"If we were to get rid of that side of us, what would you do if someone were raping your daughter right in front of you? Just watch???... "

Different circumstances, my friend. That would be killing in self defense, or actually, in defense of a family member. I would have no problem killing in that circumstance.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 08:01pm PT
Locker, what is the reality? We have a CHOICE whether to do this, whether to give in to our desire for blood lust. We are thinking beings. That is the reality.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 08:08pm PT
If I was with you watching your child being raped and you could not stop it, then I would kill the bastard, but only right then: not later. The only time killing is justified is when it is done in self defense and by that I mean killing at the moment that a threat to life or limb exists or perhaps pre-emptive killing when there are no alternatives and there is an actual threat.

Yes, we are animals, but we are capable of thinking rationally rather than acting on impulses. The Tookies of the world may not be capable of such thought, but most of us are if we try.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 8, 2005 - 08:32pm PT
I've listened to a lot of talk about the death penalty lately. Particularly in reference to a killer who has since reformed and done a lot of good.

I think that a guy in charge of armed gangs that use force and violence to enforce turf and power, well, I also believe that such a guy DESERVES death, even if they try to keep the violence targeted against the rival gang.

I just think it's sad that we recongize that when Tookie does it but somehow our own government is exempt. I imagine Tookie cross with Saddam on one side and GWB on the other. Fair enough?

Two thoughts come to mind:

One: most of the folks calling for his death only really know scant details of his reformation and the impact of his acts in prison. I believe that his programs, writings, and actions have actually saved the lives of youth who have been helped to resist or leave gangs by Tookie. That also saves the potential victims of the would-be gang members. Therefore, justice or no justice, society benefits itself by letting Tookie live. The only guy with the total credibility on the street to speak against gangs is the guy whose "been there, done that."

So we should let Tookie live for our own selfish reasons.

Second, I have really experienced the 'grace' that comes from forgiveness and loving your enemy. It doesn't require 'faith' on my part anymore. I see it work. So I'm all for not killing him and letting God deliver any final justice to Tookie (or GWB) that's beyond my wisdom to inflict when the time comes. In the same way, I hope our own country reforms it's gangster ways and that we don't suffer the exacting justice and retribution that might be due to us for invading a country under false circumstances and killing thousands of innocent bystanders (flyby shootings?). I want to skate the rap, don't you? That's why we invaded Iraq the first time, remember? Because they invaded Kuwait.

It will be interesting to see what Arnold does. Remember that he's from Austria where the death penalty is verboten. You might recall that many countries around the world have got carried away with the death penalty in the past (particularly Nazi past) and DNA evidence has shown that we have our own problems with it.

I used to be all for the death penalty. Let God sort em out. Not a big deal. But the DNA scandals and, then looking deeper into it, the unfair and unequal justice dispensed in this country, (Texas in particular), I can't buy it anymore. The rich walk. Look at OJ and Robert Blake.

Justice for all, even it it means God dispenses it later to the ones who slip through the cracks

peace

Karl
Ouch!

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 08:41pm PT
Good post, Karl.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2005 - 08:43pm PT
Thanks Locker, good discussion. Have a nice night.
Wade Icey

Social climber
the EPC
Dec 8, 2005 - 08:50pm PT
Condoleeza Rice...GWB....Christianity.......Tookie.....Jody....Mass murder......John Lennon.....Hate.......revenge......justice......Politics.....Minerals......Nevada.....Arnold...Chewbacca.......

I have to agree with El Cap on this one.
Hootervillian

climber
Hooterville
Dec 9, 2005 - 02:29pm PT
what would Arnie's father do?


Whether Gustav considered his job an opportunity for some world-class oppression or a paycheck to pay for his two boys Arnold and Meinhard is lost to time.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville
Dec 9, 2005 - 02:35pm PT
arnold will commute tookies death sentence to life imprisonment w/o the possibility of parole.

just a guess.

John Vawter

Social climber
San Diego
Dec 9, 2005 - 03:59pm PT
Jody sez: "Anti-death penalty advocates...I am curious how you can fight to keep alive a hardened criminal but fall all over yourselves to make sure we can keep killing innocent life in the mother's womb?"

The phrase "begs the question" is often misused. I take no position on Jody's question, but only point out, as a public service, that Jody's statement truly "begs a question" by implying that abortion kills innocent life, when there is disagreement as to exactly when life begins. Carry on.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 9, 2005 - 04:11pm PT
Jody just wants all of 'em to be born, so they can be baptised as Christians, die and go to heaven. It's just another variation on the "souls for the Pope" theme so popular in the Vatican these days. But if they're not all converted, then execute 'em along with Tookie and the other unbelievers. Or better, let a Jesus-freak cop shoot 'em first and save the State some cash. Psychomachia: Light vs. Dark forces, Good vs. Evil. More of the BS the reborns are trying to push to turn Tom Paine's Republic into some kind of Puritan theocracy governed by the Elect.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 9, 2005 - 04:13pm PT
Jody wrote: "Why is there always so much compassion for the murderer but not for the victims?"

So you think life in jail beats death? You're a Christian right Jod? You probably would have to accept that if Tookie was truly reformed, and let's assume he's accepted Christ, then he's going straight to heaven to be in bliss if we execute him, right?

Why not let him do some more good deeds before we cut him loose? Executing him really doesn't benefit the victims.

peace

Karl
Ouch!

climber
Dec 9, 2005 - 04:13pm PT
What Bruce said.
Ouch!

climber
Dec 9, 2005 - 04:16pm PT
Karl, they must first become an extreme rightwing wacko who thinks Jaysus would stone to death anyone who disagrees with the nutcases.
Shack

Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
Dec 9, 2005 - 04:50pm PT
All of you who throw around the word Christian as though meant to insult and imply a religious fanatic, are truly the ultimate in
hypocrites.
Why don't you replace the word Christian with Jew and start throwing it around. Or how about Muslim? or any other religion?

If anyone did that you same people would certainly cry Bigot, racist, hate monger, close minded etc.
Give me a break and pull your heads out of your asses.

As far as the death penalty...
Jesus was crucified with 2 criminals. The death penalty existed for many offenses in his time. In fact one criminal is quoted in Luke 23:41 "And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds" admitting that they (the 2 criminals) are getting what they deserve. He was also forgiven by Jesus, but was not spared his earthly punishment. Nowhere that I know of does Jesus
condemn the death penalty.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 9, 2005 - 05:08pm PT
I'm sure Jesus was all for the death penalty. Nobody innocent was ever executed back then.

At least he cried out on the cross "Forgive them, they know not what they do." I think he must have been apologizing in advance for the gang that he started, responsible for so many turf wars and killing over the years.

Love the sinner, hate the sin. Makes sense to me.

Christianity can be great. Try to walk the walk instead of following some politicized religion. Anybody who reads the gospel and doesn't think Jesus was about love and forgiveness is full of it.

Adultery carried the death penalty in Jesus's time. Remember when they were about to stone the adultress to death. Jesus egged em on didn't he?

or did he?

Word games and historical twists won't fool the truth

peace

karl

and Shack, just because some criminal in the Bible is quoted as say he deserved punishment doesn't make that theology valid. Just a quote from an ignorant guy. They had death for all kinds of political and petty crimes back then.
Ouch!

climber
Dec 9, 2005 - 05:40pm PT
Before quoting Jaysus, confirm that he existed.
AndyG

climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 9, 2005 - 05:40pm PT
" Nowhere that I know of does Jesus
condemn the death penalty."



"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - Jesus in John 8:7. (KJV)

I'm an atheist and I know the bible better than you do.

Andy
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Dec 9, 2005 - 06:29pm PT
if there were a muslim or a jew posting up regularly and advocating for a public policy (particularly one that involved issues of life and death) that seemed to directly oppose the teachings of their religion, i don't see how calling them on it would be considered hate speech in any way
Ouch!

climber
Dec 9, 2005 - 06:34pm PT
To a Neocon, Jaysus is as malleable as bubblegum. He will be whatever suits their politics of the moment.
Forest

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Dec 9, 2005 - 06:43pm PT
"Christian" is not a dirty word, and I'm quite sure I've never used it as such. now, "Christian Fundamentalist" (or anything fundamentalist) is a dirty term indeed, full of the well-deserved meaning of gross intolerance of anyone with a slightly different idea in their head and just generally trying to impose their morality on the rest of the world. Who else do we know like that? *cough* osama! *cough*
dirtbag

climber
Dec 9, 2005 - 06:45pm PT
Yeah, me and TR is gettin' hitched!
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Dec 9, 2005 - 07:13pm PT
"You don't see "Christian Fundamentalists" advocating the extermination of all "non-Christian Fundamentalists"


as a matter of fact, i have seen you advocate for exactly that (or close enough). what do you think it means when you advocate for nuking a country or a region? whether you are calling for killing all of them or just a shitload of them, same difference in my book. no question you would have never suggested nuking christians or jews (or white folks, for that matter).

just callin a spade a spade pal...
AndyG

climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 9, 2005 - 08:35pm PT
"Andy, it is you who is wrong. The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus between the Mosaic Law and Roman Law. If Jesus told them to stone her, he would be breaking Roman Law. If He told them not to stone her, He would be breaking Mosaic Law. So, he invited them to stone her, providing they were without sin. Pretty wise if you ask me. How is that condemning the death penalty? "


You can rationalize it all you want, but what was the end result?

And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. John 8:11

He forgave her. He let her go. That pretty much speaks for itself. Sure, in the process he was clever enough to get out of the trap. But as always, actions speak louder than words. Jesus was without sin, wasn't he? Why didn't he stone her?

Going back to the Sermon on the Mount he says (right after the lord's prayer),

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly
Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their
trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14,15.

He tells you to forgive those who sin against you. In fact, he tells you directly that if you don't then it is absolutely meaningless for you to ask God to forgive you.

Andy
10b4me

Trad climber
On that V2 problem at the Happies
Dec 9, 2005 - 08:51pm PT
I'm Jewish and calling for the bombing/nuking of Iran

another objective viewpoint from fatty
John Vawter

Social climber
San Diego
Dec 9, 2005 - 09:13pm PT
Who cares what Jesus said? He answered to a higher authority who commanded (so the Bible says) "Thou shalt not kill." I don't remember a footnote on that commandment saying: "Not valid in jurisdictions still enforcing a death penalty."
AndyG

climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 9, 2005 - 09:22pm PT
"I can forgive, but that doesn't mean the bad deed should go unpunsihed. It is you who is twisting scriptures Andy. Answer my question...can ANYBODY be punished for ANYTHING according to your logic?"

Jody, I'm not sure I know the answer to this question. I may have to ask it of someone else. I do know that a significant fraction of christians believe that Jesus' words direct them to be pacifist in all things. I understand that practically speaking this may just not be possible. But I do know people who thoroughly believe it and practice it in whatever way they can. MLK was willing to die for his beliefs. The CPT people that got kidnapped in Iraq recently are willing to die for their beliefs. Does it make a difference? In the case of MLK, clearly yes. In the case of the CPT people? Hard to say, maybe not. Should we just not try then? Sorry, that was a bit of a sidetrack.

Here is a possible answer to your question. You may not think it answers your question. I don't know. In my mind the purpose of punishing someone for doing something wrong is to teach them to be a better person. That should certainly be the purpose of a parent in punishing his child, right? In those circumstances, yes someone can be punished for something. In other words, if the intent is to make that individual a better person then you can punish that person. If my parents had never punished me I would be a spoiled brat. But how can you teach someone to be a better person by killing him? He can't be a better person after he is dead. And punishment as a deterrent to others is not the same thing.

"Andy, the Sermon on the Mount is not directed at civil governments and their actions, including capital punishment."

You are right. It is directed at people. But people make up civil govts and people, here specifically, and in civil govts, quote the bible as rationale all the time to support what civil govts do.

And also I see that you are in favor of the separation of church and state. I agree.

"They should give him a gut shot from a 12GA and leave him gurgling to die like he did his victims."

You say you can forgive. When I first read this it surely did not strike me as the remark of a forgiving person. Maybe you could clarify this for me.

Andy
Ouch!

climber
Dec 9, 2005 - 09:49pm PT
The only proof of the Bible is the Bible and it only proves that it is a book. Grimm's Fairy Tales is also a book.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Dec 9, 2005 - 10:28pm PT
I just read over ten different articles and not in one of them did he say he felt any regret or remorse for the killings. It be the race card. Who cares if he dies. I just want to watch the stupid black masses riot and destroy their own hoods. It be their own judgement coming down on them. I am going to by a six pack and watch Fox.
Give me tension'

Trad climber
Somewhere I wish I wasn't
Dec 10, 2005 - 12:35am PT
I find it ironic that gangster rapper Snoop Dog has been defending ole Tookie. Yeah-Snoop when are you going to start writing children's books that promote peace-? Won't sell will it? But drugs, sex and the gangster life does and will continue.

Fry Tookie, like all murderous socio-paths should...
John Vawter

Social climber
San Diego
Dec 10, 2005 - 12:13pm PT
Jody, Catholic (and other) death penalty opponents define murder as the deliberate taking of human life.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 11, 2005 - 07:05pm PT
I wonder if the angst from some quarters would be as pronounced if it was a middle aged cracker from Alabama that had co-founded a terrorist organization that had been responsible for the murders of ten thousand or more, predominantly poor blacks, over the last twenty five years? Not to mention brutaly murdering at least four people himself.




Have a feeling they'd be dancing at his execution.


`

If Arnie pardons him it will be proof that steroids really do shrink your balls.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Dec 11, 2005 - 07:52pm PT
When Tookie is killed he becomes a Marter. Pure and simple.

Everything an individual does results in some form of Karma. What type of Karma that is, depends somewhat on that individual.

It is the same with the Fates. You do not know what the Fates have in mind. You may be robbing them, you may be providing. You do what you do, you role the bones and wait. You cannot say this is good, that is bad, this is nothing, only the Fates know.
Tuan DeLusion

Social climber
Dec 11, 2005 - 08:09pm PT
My name is fates.
CorporateDog

climber
Middle California
Dec 11, 2005 - 09:08pm PT
Okay - I'll bite -

Dead Tookie - Yea or Nay?

Yea - of course, the jury decided so and the law says GO.

Why - revenge of course...and some small token for the families of the victims.

Deterrant - hell no - crimes of passion CAN NOT be deterred.

As for the "What Would Jesus Do" argument....

Jesus would sign a PR contract with the William L. Morris Agency and immediately start working the talk show circuit before inking a multi-million dollar deal to host his own show on Fox.

Next would come the "dating Jennifer Anniston" stories in People and "Mary Magdelen Had A Love Child" exposes on the Access Hollywood Channel.

Ultimately, Jesus will be shot to death outside of Spago's by a 34 Year Old Right Wing Born Again Christian Fundamentalist Who Still Lives With Mom.
Ditch Trad

Trad climber
CA
Dec 12, 2005 - 12:23am PT
"You don't see "Christian Fundamentalists" advocating the extermination of all "non-Christian Fundamentalists"."

You just aren't reading the Good Book close enough....

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

"
Don't forget, Christians can never be held responsible (Romans 8:33) (Cuz' gawd is, ultimately).


-So, you got that going for you.

Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. (There's a good justification instead of your 'murder'obfuscation...)

Check out the Army of "Gawd" website...http://www.armyofgod.com/

You'll be interested in particular...
http://www.armyofgod.com/OfficerFriendly.html


Also, check Christian Identity, good followers of "PoP" (prince of peace) who disprove your statement...

new tenet gaining popularity among some radical Christian Identity believers justifies the use of violence if it is perpetrated in order to punish violators of God's law, as found in the Bible and interpreted by Christian Identity ministers and adherents. This includes killing interracial couples, abortionists, prostitutes and homosexuals, burning pornography stores, and robbing banks and perpetrating frauds to undermine the "usury system.

Christian Identity adherents believe that God will use what they believe is the chosen race as his weapons to battle the forces of evil. Christian Identity followers believe they are among those chosen by God to wage this battle during Armageddon and they will be the last line of defense for the white race and Christian America. "


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=christian+identity



Chaz

Trad climber
So. Cal.
Dec 12, 2005 - 04:56pm PT
It has always seemed very strange to me that the very same people that are adamantly opposed to the State killing people via execution have no problem whatsoever with the State stealing their money via taxation. "Thou shalt not murder, Thou shalt not steal".
Wholly Mammoth

Social climber
that little dot on the map
Dec 12, 2005 - 05:19pm PT
Mytropy brought up an excellent point --

Tookie has never admitted guilt, or displayed remorse for his actions, and 12 hours from now, he will still remain mute about his crimes. The looser killed in cold blood because he was a self-proclaimed thug, and if anything Tookie should know that there are two types of thugs: those who kill, and those who are killed. No you can't spend a life in jail, waxing poetic about gang life, and mean a damn, not in this society. Some of you should read Hammurabi's Code to realize Tookie's punishment could be worse!
Ouch!

climber
Dec 12, 2005 - 06:14pm PT
Fat, the only evidence that supports your contention is when the convicted is taken from the verdict to the gallows and whacked posthaste. Not 25 years later. Of course, that leaves no wiggle room for correcting errors or misconduct by prosecutors and cops. Tough question either way. Justice and revenge are the same word. Just different spelling.
Ed Bannister

Mountain climber
Victorville, CA
Dec 12, 2005 - 06:20pm PT
Rainbow:
fat did not say that the punishment should be different.
He said that the punishment would not be a deterrent for crimes of passion. read it again.
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