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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I've listened to a lot of talk about the death penalty lately. Particularly in reference to a killer who has since reformed and done a lot of good.
I think that a guy in charge of armed gangs that use force and violence to enforce turf and power, well, I also believe that such a guy DESERVES death, even if they try to keep the violence targeted against the rival gang.
I just think it's sad that we recongize that when Tookie does it but somehow our own government is exempt. I imagine Tookie cross with Saddam on one side and GWB on the other. Fair enough?
Two thoughts come to mind:
One: most of the folks calling for his death only really know scant details of his reformation and the impact of his acts in prison. I believe that his programs, writings, and actions have actually saved the lives of youth who have been helped to resist or leave gangs by Tookie. That also saves the potential victims of the would-be gang members. Therefore, justice or no justice, society benefits itself by letting Tookie live. The only guy with the total credibility on the street to speak against gangs is the guy whose "been there, done that."
So we should let Tookie live for our own selfish reasons.
Second, I have really experienced the 'grace' that comes from forgiveness and loving your enemy. It doesn't require 'faith' on my part anymore. I see it work. So I'm all for not killing him and letting God deliver any final justice to Tookie (or GWB) that's beyond my wisdom to inflict when the time comes. In the same way, I hope our own country reforms it's gangster ways and that we don't suffer the exacting justice and retribution that might be due to us for invading a country under false circumstances and killing thousands of innocent bystanders (flyby shootings?). I want to skate the rap, don't you? That's why we invaded Iraq the first time, remember? Because they invaded Kuwait.
It will be interesting to see what Arnold does. Remember that he's from Austria where the death penalty is verboten. You might recall that many countries around the world have got carried away with the death penalty in the past (particularly Nazi past) and DNA evidence has shown that we have our own problems with it.
I used to be all for the death penalty. Let God sort em out. Not a big deal. But the DNA scandals and, then looking deeper into it, the unfair and unequal justice dispensed in this country, (Texas in particular), I can't buy it anymore. The rich walk. Look at OJ and Robert Blake.
Justice for all, even it it means God dispenses it later to the ones who slip through the cracks
peace
Karl
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Ouch!
climber
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Good post, Karl.
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dirtbag
climber
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Thanks Locker, good discussion. Have a nice night.
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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Condoleeza Rice...GWB....Christianity.......Tookie.....Jody....Mass murder......John Lennon.....Hate.......revenge......justice......Politics.....Minerals......Nevada.....Arnold...Chewbacca.......
I have to agree with El Cap on this one.
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Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
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what would Arnie's father do?
Whether Gustav considered his job an opportunity for some world-class oppression or a paycheck to pay for his two boys Arnold and Meinhard is lost to time.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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arnold will commute tookies death sentence to life imprisonment w/o the possibility of parole.
just a guess.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Jody sez: "Anti-death penalty advocates...I am curious how you can fight to keep alive a hardened criminal but fall all over yourselves to make sure we can keep killing innocent life in the mother's womb?"
The phrase "begs the question" is often misused. I take no position on Jody's question, but only point out, as a public service, that Jody's statement truly "begs a question" by implying that abortion kills innocent life, when there is disagreement as to exactly when life begins. Carry on.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jody just wants all of 'em to be born, so they can be baptised as Christians, die and go to heaven. It's just another variation on the "souls for the Pope" theme so popular in the Vatican these days. But if they're not all converted, then execute 'em along with Tookie and the other unbelievers. Or better, let a Jesus-freak cop shoot 'em first and save the State some cash. Psychomachia: Light vs. Dark forces, Good vs. Evil. More of the BS the reborns are trying to push to turn Tom Paine's Republic into some kind of Puritan theocracy governed by the Elect.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jody wrote: "Why is there always so much compassion for the murderer but not for the victims?"
So you think life in jail beats death? You're a Christian right Jod? You probably would have to accept that if Tookie was truly reformed, and let's assume he's accepted Christ, then he's going straight to heaven to be in bliss if we execute him, right?
Why not let him do some more good deeds before we cut him loose? Executing him really doesn't benefit the victims.
peace
Karl
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Ouch!
climber
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What Bruce said.
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Ouch!
climber
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Karl, they must first become an extreme rightwing wacko who thinks Jaysus would stone to death anyone who disagrees with the nutcases.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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All of you who throw around the word Christian as though meant to insult and imply a religious fanatic, are truly the ultimate in
hypocrites.
Why don't you replace the word Christian with Jew and start throwing it around. Or how about Muslim? or any other religion?
If anyone did that you same people would certainly cry Bigot, racist, hate monger, close minded etc.
Give me a break and pull your heads out of your asses.
As far as the death penalty...
Jesus was crucified with 2 criminals. The death penalty existed for many offenses in his time. In fact one criminal is quoted in Luke 23:41 "And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds" admitting that they (the 2 criminals) are getting what they deserve. He was also forgiven by Jesus, but was not spared his earthly punishment. Nowhere that I know of does Jesus
condemn the death penalty.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I'm sure Jesus was all for the death penalty. Nobody innocent was ever executed back then.
At least he cried out on the cross "Forgive them, they know not what they do." I think he must have been apologizing in advance for the gang that he started, responsible for so many turf wars and killing over the years.
Love the sinner, hate the sin. Makes sense to me.
Christianity can be great. Try to walk the walk instead of following some politicized religion. Anybody who reads the gospel and doesn't think Jesus was about love and forgiveness is full of it.
Adultery carried the death penalty in Jesus's time. Remember when they were about to stone the adultress to death. Jesus egged em on didn't he?
or did he?
Word games and historical twists won't fool the truth
peace
karl
and Shack, just because some criminal in the Bible is quoted as say he deserved punishment doesn't make that theology valid. Just a quote from an ignorant guy. They had death for all kinds of political and petty crimes back then.
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Ouch!
climber
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Before quoting Jaysus, confirm that he existed.
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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" Nowhere that I know of does Jesus
condemn the death penalty."
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - Jesus in John 8:7. (KJV)
I'm an atheist and I know the bible better than you do.
Andy
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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if there were a muslim or a jew posting up regularly and advocating for a public policy (particularly one that involved issues of life and death) that seemed to directly oppose the teachings of their religion, i don't see how calling them on it would be considered hate speech in any way
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Ouch!
climber
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To a Neocon, Jaysus is as malleable as bubblegum. He will be whatever suits their politics of the moment.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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"Christian" is not a dirty word, and I'm quite sure I've never used it as such. now, "Christian Fundamentalist" (or anything fundamentalist) is a dirty term indeed, full of the well-deserved meaning of gross intolerance of anyone with a slightly different idea in their head and just generally trying to impose their morality on the rest of the world. Who else do we know like that? *cough* osama! *cough*
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dirtbag
climber
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Yeah, me and TR is gettin' hitched!
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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"You don't see "Christian Fundamentalists" advocating the extermination of all "non-Christian Fundamentalists"
as a matter of fact, i have seen you advocate for exactly that (or close enough). what do you think it means when you advocate for nuking a country or a region? whether you are calling for killing all of them or just a shitload of them, same difference in my book. no question you would have never suggested nuking christians or jews (or white folks, for that matter).
just callin a spade a spade pal...
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