Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
|
On a few occasions, when I only could use peenuts, I would set 2 nuts and equalize them with a sling.
Sometimes when all I can set is a peenut and it doesn't feel anywhere near bomber, sometimes it's all the psychological boost I need to power through a few moves to better protection. Why not?
The common mistakes I find when cleaning other people's gear is mainly over-camming, not placing the cam in the direction of fall (a big problem for Linkcams), not placing a long enough sling to minimize rope drag. With nuts, they usually aren't placed deep enough to prevent walking out with rope drag, or they are a size too big for the constriction.
I've read Freedom of the Hills a few times and still review it when I have a long downtime period. I've schooled some older folks who have been climbing waaayy longer than I have. I'm self taught for everything I do as I read as much as I can. I've only been climbing for a year and a half and mountaineering for 2 years.
I climbed with a guy a few weeks ago in the Valley and I repeatedly commented on his overcamming and he still didn't get it. On a few occasions I spent several minutes to work them out. So after that, if someone is going to do most of the leading, they will lead with their racks. Maybe they'll learn when they have to leave a piece of gear due to a bad placement.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
|
Just want to bump Ksolem's piece for its wisdom:
"In two years I will have 40 years of climbing under my belt, most of it trad. I can think of two times I had gear pull in a fall, and due to my cautious nature these pieces were backed up. I've taken some big falls, but never one of any consequence due to gear pulling.
Sometimes I'll follow a lead, and as I am cleaning the gear each piece would be better in a slightly different placement. Some people are just not mechanically inclined and they are the cause of most of the "gear pulled" horror stories.
I think many climbers 20 or thirty years ago had better mechanical skills than a lot of climbers today. After all, you could not get to the crags unless you could rebuild a volkswagen alongside the road with minimal tools and improvised parts.
I have two rules I follow when I am placing gear on a serious lead:
1.) Build a system. Do not end up in the crux depending on one piece.
2.) Never settle for second best. If there are doubts about a placement it can probably be better.
Of course there are times when you have to "plug and play," but that's where the system will save your butt."
|
|
PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
|
After all, you could not get to the crags unless you could rebuild a volkswagen alongside the road with minimal tools and improvised parts.
LOL. That's awesome!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
|
WOW
I read a lot of these posts in this thread.
I must must have done everything wrong?
I must be real lucky too .....
Carry on ....
|
|
MN_SlowTrad
Trad climber
MN
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
|
Learning to climb in a place where you never get far from a ground fall, I did my apprenticeship under older guys that didn't pass good gear placements (almost all passive). Makes a slow climber, but alive. If you observe the architecture of the rock, and pick a piece (passive or active) that best suits the placement, why wouldn't you trust it???
The opposite is what I see from younger gym climbers who don't have anybody to learn from...i.e. Eldo-Bastille, 17 yr kid puts a large cam behind the flake before the move into the crack on P1 and decks when the cam pulls. This is a very straight forward climb no one should get hurt on and has a great placement at the bottom of the flake he just didn't "see".
|
|
PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
|
What I observe a lot when climbing with others is the lack of observation of the Big Picture. Like placing some extra pro when above a ledge, protecting a traverse from a huge pendulum for either climber, etc.
I loaned an accidents report book to a guy I used to climb with as he was taking on more and more leads. Him and a buddy were climbing a finger crack. He fell when placing, next piece pulled, and he decked on a ledge. He wasn't seriously injured. Well, that same scenario was in that book I loaned him a week before his fall.
|
|
G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
|
Nah, I always trust the integrity of the piece, it is the placement that is the questionable item. If I don't trust a piece of gear that I won't buy it.
I understand that Aliens were the exception to this but I never owned any so I never learned to doubt my gear.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
|
Pilot error vs. defective gear:
Yes, we've had occasional gear failures such as gate flutter, bad alien brazes, etc. I'd argue that far more common are things such as:
1. Bad eye for gear: Tipped out cams, poor nut placements, etc. Either a noob leader, or just a brain not wired well for the task at hand (i.e. some 40+ year veterans still place sh#t gear).
2. Ego: A lot of folks don't put in gear right off the belay out of some weird ego/boldness BS. I get lots of goofy responses when I request my partner puts something in before making the first tricky move on the route. I am less worried about them than I am about protecting the belay and me (i.e. don't screw your belayer into dealing with a factor 2 unless absolutely necessary). OK/marginal placements need not see a high fall factor, but folks often choose to run out things unnecessarily, skipping obvious bomber placements.
3. Bad slingage: Good nuts can get easily be zippered, and proper extension doesn't seem to come easy to the Sport converts in particular, but we have all failed to properly envision the run of the rope and turned a slammer set of nuts into a zipper waiting to happen.
4. Wrong/insufficient gear: Either out of poorness, thrift, boldness, error, or similar many leaders go up routes with a meager or wrong rack. Veterans know their risks pretty good, but plenty of folks go up a route without the requisite big cams, or brass, or number of pieces of a particular size.
So do I trust my gear 100%? Of course not, but mechanical gear failure is much less likely to kill me than so many other gear foul ups. A good conservative practice of keeping at least 2 pieces of gear between you and the ground/ledges, making sure the placements are frequent and well thought out will do so much more than wringing my hands about whether or not any one particular placement may be less bomber than I think it is.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
|
"A lot of folks don't put in gear right off the belay ..."
I used to love doing that just to scare the holy sh'it of the belayer.
They'd be trembling down there ...... hahaha
|
|
murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
|
Nice, Moof and others. When I crater I will have fewer excuses.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2016 - 09:04am PT
|
Great thread. A reminder to sell my still nearly unused Link Cams.
|
|
overwatch
climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2016 - 10:05am PT
|
link cams for crack jumars in parallel cracks
|
|
Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2016 - 11:24am PT
|
All gear and gear placements are good if you don't fall :-)
Curt
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2016 - 11:25am PT
|
The only problem with Link Cams is their weight. I trust the gear I use, if I didn't I wouldn't use it.
|
|
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
|
I do have a grudge about the blue-plastic Forest Nuts sold in the early 1970's, due to a 1973 fall on a new route on the South-side of Harrison Peak in Idaho's Selkirk Range.
About 10' above a ledge, I didn't feel comfortable with trying a harder move free, so I slotted a big blue-plastic Forest stopper in the hand-crack, clipped in a sling, stepped-up, and started fishing for a good jam above it.
Suddenly! The Forest nut popped, and I flew down and out for a 12’-15' fall into space. The elastic rope bounced me back onto the ledge I had barely missed landing on “back-first”, with no damage to me.
I remember exclaiming: “ WOW! Glad I missed hitting this ledge.” (We are so clueless in our 20’s.)
Of course I led the crack again, using a metal stopper, then freed it on a later trip.
A 1972 photo of a couple of two Forest Blue plastic nuts, & some other early nuts on a combined rack, including at far left, what turns out to be an early and rare drilled SMC Hex.
The plastic stopper had a "gouge-mark" from top to bottom, where my body weight had ripped a big feldspar crystal through it.
I haven't trusted plastic nuts since, but otherwise have never seen a piece of gear fail to hold a fall. Of course there was the "water-knot" that pulled through on a sling when my pal Chris took a lead fall on it. It turned a trivial fall into a 20 footer. Chris was growling when he slid past me, since he knew the knot had failed.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
|
Never heard of plastic nuts before.
I've placed some gear I did not trust, but it was because the placement was marginal, not because of the gear. The only falls I've had where gear ripped were on aid.
I did have a friend who zippered at Suicide. He was very experienced. I blame it on me not staying close enough to the rock to prevent outward force on the nuts.
|
|
overwatch
climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
|
I used to practice falling all the time trying different pieces of gear to see what would hold and what wouldn't, usually with the test piece high and with two or three backups down lower. I did this because being scared to fall was such a performance limiting anxiety for me.
I learned that single pieces of gear can and do hold but I still don't trust that they necessarily will so I use the Ksolem and others' system method
vvvvv agreed my number one choice for must not fail gear. wish I had more of them
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
|
For those worried about trusting their gear, BUY TOTEM CAMS!!! hell yes!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!