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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 23, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
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I trust my gear but tend to be in the "Don't fall" category of leaders.
That's me too. I don't rush around leaping off of things so I can squeeze the next letter grade.
Plus, I don't trust any of it the way I used to.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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Seconding rockermike's comment re: the nuance of a cam placement... I carefully check the area for the optimal way to place a cam, finding a slight indentation, worrying over a flare in the front, or a widening in the back... is there a little ridge in the crack that will lock the cam into place and prevent it from walking? Will it sit better in the crack contours if I flip the cam over?
Of course if I'm hanging on a pumped arm in a crux and frantically struggling for something, I'm not as careful. But whenever I can I try to get it placed as well as possible.
And if I know or think a piece sucks, I'm on the lookout for the opportunity to make it better. But often the reason it sucks is because I'm nearly out of gear and don't have the right size, or need to save the size for the looming crux or the belay station, etc.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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Great stuff in here and a real post with real depth to the discussion. If you haven't yet, read or re-read Rgolds first post above. What more is there to say?
Arne
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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Trust it with my life.
Hasn't killed me yet.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Jun 23, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
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Some great post here!
This past year, it seems most of my climbing partners are half my age or younger. I often look at their placements, ( without comment), and have observed a common trait. More often than not, a cam will be placed, rather than a stopper.
I have seen many,"bomber" nut placements overlooked, where a cam was placed instead.
Many "older" climbers will trust a good nut placement over a cam. I'm one of them.
About 20 years ago, I built 2 hydraulic testing machines for Wild Things. At that time they were making climbing gear. I am planning to fabricate a variety of silver soldered brass stoppers, and test them at a local crag. I am curious to see the point of failure.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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Most often, I place nuts before I place cams.
A few complementary reasons:
A good nut placement, with a large enough nut (#4 BD stopper or equivalent) will hold a pretty high load factor fall.
....... is often quicker to set than a cam.
....... is almost by definition not going to create as much spreading force as a cam.
Nuts are MUCH cheaper if you've got to leave them.
Using nuts first means you've got a wider range of cams to choose from when you need them.
........often impresses the snot out of beginning climbers who may have never seen a nut in action. Excepting of course the nut who's leading.
Which all begs the question:
what's a good nut placement? About 1/2 the time its obvious. The other half.....creativity, ingenuity and nerve come to the fore.
I've set plenty of nuts and cams that I wouldn't want to fall or hangdog from. So why set them? I really don't have a good reason.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Do folks oppose nuts much, anymore?
A couple opposed nuts are hard to beat, for bomber gear.
I trust 'em, completely. They work.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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Last trip out I was mentoring a young climber. He'd been placing nothing but cams on his leads. So we went to Pine Line and I had him take only nuts. One placement I knew would be dicy without opposition. He figured it out with a little coaching from the ground. Was a good placement when I cleaned it.
I use opposition often. It's also useful to direct the pull on a cam that might rotate out. Especially at an anchor where the pull direction is likely to reverse. A nut directing the load on the cam.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Jun 29, 2010 - 05:32am PT
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I did most of my climbing back in the piton days and have never taken a fall on anything other than a pin. However, I came close to buying the farm by leading hard stuff before I had enough experience to protect the climb correctly. Put it this way, I would have tested the ground before the piton. I did a fair amount of some serious climbing for 5 years without mishap.
After not climbing for some years (and with nuts now in vogue), I was handed a rack of nuts and proceeded to lead a 70' 5.8 overhanging crack. These nuts were cool, no problem, I popped them into the crack as needed. Being way out of shape, I was burned out at the top and barely made it over. Unknown to me, just before my last desperate move the last nuts lifted out of the crack and slid down to my belayer's hands. I pulled a muscle in my neck using my jaw to grip the top so I could pop an elbow up for a mantle - absolutely desperate but not obvious to an outside observer. Exhiliarating until my belayer called my attention to the unimpeded curve of the rope from my hand down to his.
Me? I trust my gear. And, having lived past enough stupidities to learn some true things, I trust myself to fully familiarize myself with the use of any new gear of any kind before putting myself in a position where my life will depend on it.
I even do that when I rent a car.
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Tim Camuti
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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I really enjoyed learning oppositional placements and even nesting nuts. When I really want an absolutely solid wider anchor (harder with the fancy nuts being sold nowadays) I have been known to use stacked nuts. I've only placed these two or three times in 15 years of leading, but a great thing to have in the toolbox.
Passive protection is certainly my first choice and when I really need to trust it I build a system (opposition especially). Good example: Last anchor in a crack before heading out on the 50' or so of runout dike hiking on Surrealistic Pillar. First time lead, can't see around the corner, don't know what the 50' of runout looks like, so I stood on a dike and built a bombproof anchor. Then I can edge around the corner into the unknown assured that my anchor is bomber and I can turn my attention to assessing the runout climbing moves and not worry about placing more gear as soon as possible.
DON'T FALL leads to => All pro is psychological pro, but the more solid my psychological pro, the more present I can be for the climbing experience, which is what I'm in this for.
Climb safe, including a helmet.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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I think we are turning a psychological corner. Not a good one.
BITD before cell phones and the creation of organized rescues there was no one around. That placement in front of your nose would be all you would have.
Nowadays the introduction people get for climbing consists of standing around for hours in a crowd. Then you hit the rock with little more than that and your head all twisted up in a knot by those hours of idle conversation.
Aren't we setting ourselves up for a rescue a day?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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I've always been a fan of oppositional placements,
especially for multiple parties.
Hey, IHatePlastic, wanna use this for a contest?
Besides the location you could also run it for best caption!
And, no, "WTF" is not in the running.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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I thought people got wiser as they got older?
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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RokJox you da bomb! Hot shots who spit scorn -- who are you trying to keep alive that you are imitating? Take the truth available so you can apply it when the situation applies to you, say thank you and proceed. Pissing on the tree and clawing up the ground reeks of insecurity. Get over it!
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Manimal
climber
SLT, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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Bottom line is that people trust well placed passive gear far more than the pricier cams on our rack and that since the advent of the SLCD the art of protection has been fading. Therefore apprentice with someone with REAL experience, not just someone who has climbed longer than you. This way you will learn about directionals, opposing nuts, and when to stitch it up and when to just run.... Thank you for all the great input, it has really honed my own thoughts on using gear. I was starting to feel like I was the guy who wouldn't just place a cam, with out a runner, every 20 feet or so and call it good. The elders especially, who have really seen sh#t, tell it like it is.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jul 22, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Never trust gear. It doesn't deserve it.
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scuffy b
climber
Eastern Salinia
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Jul 22, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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How much do I trust gear?
I trust it with my life.
I know how to place cams that are good, I know how to place nuts that are
good.
I've been held by nuts, cams, pins and bolts.
I never want to fall on any of it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 22, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
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I trust gear, that I place, better than I trust most climbers out there.
But those whom I do trust are, way, better.
full rack of cams is $2000. In your dreams!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 22, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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Um, sounds spot - on, for most. Don't you think?
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