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Manimal
climber
SLT, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 9, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
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I have been climbing free for over a decade and have had several falls caught by cams, even a 00 TCU once to my great pleasure, but looking over accident reports I am struck by the frequency of the phrase "Protection Pulled Out" preceding a grim description of severe injury or death. I understand human error is often the issue here creating situations where gear either zippers or is improperly placed but my questions for the climbing community (especially the more experienced) are : How much do you trust gear to catch your falls? Have you had "good" or "bomber" placements rip unexpectedly? Conversely, have you had shitty placements like cams with partial lobe contact or uneven lobes catch significant falls..? I think an assesment of this is in order to save those with blind faith and liberate those caged in fear
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adventurous one
Trad climber
Truckee Ca.
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Seen cams in what appeared to be "perfect" placements fail. Also have seen pro that didn't look like it would hold body weight hold 20'falls. Who knows? Bottom line: Never, ever trust one piece of pro no matter how bomber it appears (trad climbing 101) Back everything up!
If I have no choice but to get only one piece in, I still prefer a bomber hex or large nut in a perfect placement over a cam if it is a "must not fail" piece.
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Buju
Big Wall climber
the range of light
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I have never pulled a piece of gear that was not suspect to begin with. I trust gear to the max and have taken big (60-70 ft) falls on it!
Sometimes I think I trust a piece of gear that I put in myself more than a bolt (or welded shut!!)that some screwball could have placed.
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Jongy
Big Wall climber
Southern California
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YOU'RE GONNA DIE!!!!!!!!
i have not ever placed any gear. fish told me that will change when I get on my first big will. I'm excited.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I think an assesment of this is in order to save those with blind faith and liberate those caged in fear
That's me! I freakin' hate falling on gear. Keeps me from climbing at a higher level, but I have fun.
I've fallen on a shitty .4 C4 and not only did it hold, it held 3 consecutive falls.
Guess it wasn't so shitty....
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ec
climber
ca
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I have been climbing free
Climb some aid and you'll get a real perspective on what may be good, what is not and blown away on what can actually hold...It'll give you a whole different anchoring skill set.
 ec
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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my first big will
Hopefully that's not a prophetic typo...
In two years I will have 40 years of climbing under my belt, most of it trad. I can think of two times I had gear pull in a fall, and due to my cautious nature these pieces were backed up. I've taken some big falls, but never one of any consequence due to gear pulling.
Sometimes I'll follow a lead, and as I am cleaning the gear each piece would be better in a slightly different placement. Some people are just not mechanically inclined and they are the cause of most of the "gear pulled" horror stories.
I think many climbers 20 or thirty years ago had better mechanical skills than a lot of climbers today. After all, you could not get to the crags unless you could rebuild a volkswagen alongside the road with minimal tools and improvised parts.
I have two rules I follow when I am placing gear on a serious lead:
1.) Build a system. Do not end up in the crux depending on one piece.
2.) Never settle for second best. If there are doubts about a placement it can probably be better.
Of course there are times when you have to "plug and play," but that's where the system will save your butt.
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Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
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ec, just posted along the same lines as I was just going to say. The gear is fine but the placement can be a little sketchy at times.
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snaps10
Mountain climber
Visalia, CA
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I've never fallen on my gear. I've whipped on bolts, but never my gear. I'm trying to keep it that way. I have a rule, when at all possible, if a gear placement is questionable, I double it up as soon as is safely possible.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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The only gear I ever really fell on was an Alien offset in a pocket. It was the first piece, and only, piece of gear protecting me at the time.
Dave
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Protection negates the difficulty of a climb. If you trust your gear, the climb is easier.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Protection negates the difficulty of a climb. If you trust your gear, the climb is easier.
Some routes are bold, not well protected. In most cases we know that going in. In those cases if you trust yourself, the climb is easier.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Depends...
If it is gear made for climbing and I am climbing.. then yeah, I trust with my life.
If its gear picked up at a local heroin den... then yeah.. that stuff is iffy at best and lacks trust.
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quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
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Putting in gear, slinging it, and jumping on it at the base of numerous cracks....helped a LOT to build confidence in gear. Analyze why a cam skated, or tricam ripped, or nut popped. It's easy to do from the ground, and you can place a lot of gear quickly.
Great confidence builder. (Now if I could just climb safely above that last piece.....)
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Probably ~10 falls of varying severity, mostly aid falls. I was not surprised by any of the gear that popped/ripped, but was surprised a couple times by what held. More often the horrifying thing is what I find when following a pitch and see the pathetic gear placement skills of random partners. Based on my perspective, I'm surprised more people don't die from their own lousy gear placement skills.
When in doubt sew it up.
Buyer beware.
Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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I have much less faith in gear after a bad fall this winter at Sugarloaf. This piece was at about my waist when my foot slipped off of the start of the .10d traverse section of Taurus:
The placement seemed just about perfect, but it's obvious why it failed. See that crack? Wasn't there before the fall.
But! The beauty pictured below (with the big bite out of one lobe) literally kept me alive, or at least kept me from life-changing injury (I was flipped head-down when the Linkcam caught for an instant before breaking, and I wasn't wearing a helmet, which was incredibly stupid, so I would have cratered head first if the BD hadn't held):
This C3 was placed just above the stance after the .11b crux sequence. I was about ten ft off the deck when the rope came taught on it. Had the shakes the rest of that day and couldn't stop thinking about it for months after, to this day pretty much.
The experience has changed the way I think about protection, and has definitely changed the way I climb, and what I climb. I lost all faith in OP and Linkcams, and have lost a healthy dose of faith in gear in general. So I place much more now than ever before, and I haven't really pushed my technical abilities since that fall.
This weekend I climbed Steck-Salathe, and was really careful about protection. Even on the "run" slab pitch, I made sure to find gear no more than 10 ft apart. Tentative climbing makes for slow climbing, but safer, I think.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Gear that is in good condition and placed properly should be trusted.
That said, the next question would be: How much do you trust yourself?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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I never trust a single piece between me and the deck (or equivalent). Which is not to say I'm never in that situation. I just make sure that when I am, I do not fall.
When I have good redundant gear, I am happy to push it to the limit and take whatever falls come my way.
Sometimes when I've done that, I've ripped a single piece of gear. But (so far) it's always been a piece that was suspect (or suspect rock). However I know perfectly well that just because I've always been right so far, that doesn't mean I'll be right next time. The next one to blow might not be one I expect.
That's why I'll keep with the mantra in my first paragraph.
GO
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malabarista
Trad climber
PA, then AZ, then CO, Now CA, soon OR
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I don't trust it, but every time I've taken a lead fall it has held me -except when I fell on ice. On ice I ripped a screw, after the screamer on it had fully deployed. I haven't looked at ice screws the same since. I've had pieces walk out behind me while I was leading, then found myself looking down at some terrible runout. I've also had a cam guiding the beginning of a traverse piece blow on a wall when the second was ascending. That line ripped a good chunk out of my fingers as it readjusted. So I guess my answer is: depends.
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sjellison
Mountain climber
santa clara, ca
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I have two friends that have OP link cams and reallly started to like them. Recently however, I have had 2 experiences where the cams mysteriously broke. Last weekend in Tuolumne I placed a red OP link in a really straigh-forward parallel, clean crack and when my partner cleaned it, one of the wires connecting the lobes to the trigger had broken. Just before getting on the climb my partner told me about how another one had broken on him before, and now this post above... I think im done with those puppies. Any thoughts or similar experiences?
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Le Bruce, the link cam is still in one piece in the picture, correct(?) In the photo it looks like all the lobes are attached but one has a crack. So the piece pulled is what your saying ? Could you elaborate a little. Glad you're ok.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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I've ripped a textbook cam placement, broken a brand new 0.5 C4 in a small fall, and had the occasional mank piece blow, but for the most part the gear I've placed has held. I've fallen a good amount of small gear, down to 00 TCUs and small offset nuts, but I try to apply redundancy requirements to my lead gear. You should see me before a crux I have to run it out on. Sometimes I'll put 3 in. Sometimes it's tough, though. Some amazing routes are inherently dangerous and if you're onsighting at your limit it can get dangerous and scary quickly.
Edit: Link cams breaking shouldn't be so much of a surprise. When they first came out it was obvious that strange torques could easily occur and there were just too many moving parts. People criticised them from the beginning and I for one have refused to ever climb on them. I haven't been keeping track, but it seems like there has been a constant trickle of reports of problems and incidents where they break on these internet forums. Those things are SCARY!
Josh
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Manimal
climber
SLT, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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Thanks for all the input. Which pieces do you trust most? TCU's, Aliens C4's, C3's, Metolius???....other??
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Today's gear is great- some people's utilization of said gear leads much to be desired. Gear failure is almost always attributable to human error.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:40am PT
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i got ambitious last year and took a couple PCGI guide courses. spent lots of time on the physics of climb protection, forces, camming. i've climbed more than 30 years, hardly any aid or big wall, lots of free trad and sport.
frank sanders, who runs the devil's tower guide service, was a fellow student. a veteran of 29 el cap ascents, he made an insightful comment: "i never learned to trust my gear until i started putting my weight on it."
which may be part of your problem, manimal, and mine as well. i have that good mechanical sense. i'm a pretty good carpenter off the rock. i know when things are solid. still, the business of camming is a theoretical physics lesson to me. the damn things pull out, and it has to do with a brief, intimate moment of shock against that particular surface of the rock. yea, cams are great, but there's nothing like a hex or stopper solidly nested behind happy granite. when i feel confident about a placement, i climb on, but i very rarely fall, having developed a good sense of where my edge is. perhaps i've stopped growing as a climber.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:52am PT
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If you don't have implicit trust in gear and faith in your ability to place it, you should be clipping bolts or climbing in a gym.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:14am PT
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Le bruce. The green cam with the crack by the hinge. Is that a link cam? If so and after hearing of others failing folks need to be absolutly nuts to fall on those things!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:36am PT
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I'll second what Cragman said above:
"I'd rather fall on a stopper than anything else!"
I've has several falls onto stoppers where their failure would have had catastrophic consequenses (death or permanently maimed?), but NOTHING beats a good stopper placement! I've only fallen onto cams a couple of times, and PLACEMENT is everything!
Suggestion: put ego aside and climb with an "old timer" who has been around and done lots of routes; observe how they place gear. Always back up any questionable placements, even with another questionable placement!
I've survived 52 years of Trad climbing this way.
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cowpoke
climber
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:38am PT
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a recent exchange:
Chiloe (leading, mid-pitch): What the @$#%...Eric, you gotta tell the wife you need to go shopping for new gear or you're gonna die.
Me (back home): Wife, I need to go shopping for new gear or I'm gonna die.
Wife: [dismissive stare] Did you feed the dog?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:54am PT
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"Well placed" and "apparently well placed" are two very different animals.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:56am PT
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Last November in Jtree I was trying to lead the second pitch of Overhang Bypass and fell on a #2 BD C4 -
I'm weak, what can I say :) But it was a clean fall and I dusted myself off and tried it again. And fell again.
I also took a small fall four years ago in the North Cascades on a Wild Country Zero (probably #5 or 6) .. slipped on some lichen I think. Nothing big.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 10, 2010 - 11:16am PT
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Locker--
I don't question your motive, but I DO question you "taste!"
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 10, 2010 - 11:20am PT
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Locker says, "it's what's for dinner." Eat, eat, eat, doesn't anyone _ _ _ _ anymore?
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perswig
climber
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Jun 10, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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Cowpoke brings up the tangential thread of sketching your way up some climb at your lead limit using your partner's anemic rack of 6 random stoppers (two of which are already down at the belay), two titons, and a 'set' of Romanian knock-off cams. Serious confidence buzz-kill.
Dale
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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Donini--
GAAAK!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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Donini: When did you start using cams?
Friends became widely available in 1978. When I was climbing with you in the early 1980's: you did not trust them, based on Yosemite experiences. As I recall, you flat-out refused to use the ones I had.
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ryanb
climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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I trust gear until it fails. I've seen a few gear failures, some of which involved gear placed by new leaders and some of which involved small gear placed (with redundancy) by experienced leaders.
I've also been belaying when a carabiner (one of the high end bd sport carabiners) on a bolt failed. We think it got caught between the bolt and hanger and levered in a weird way) resulting in a 50 foot fall.
I've taken falls (many of them short...I like to sew things up) on most size cams down to a 00 metolius, smiley's stoppers, and black diamond and metolius micro nuts. In decreasing order of trustworthiness I would say it goes key hole nut placements (the kind that resist a hard downward and outward jerk test) followed by .75-2 camalots in parallel slots followed by bigger or smaller cams followed by more marginal cam and nut placements followed by really small gear (tiny nuts and cams).
I'm defenetlly not as bold as I could be (the carabiner failure really shook me up) but i'll still try some stuff that might have mandatory runouts etc... Dave Macleod's ebook on hard trad has some really good stuff on the mind set to approach this kind of thing with. He says that we tend to focus on going for it but that we need to remember that you always have options other then going for it when the gear is bad. These include down climbing, jumping off, fighting to get more/better gear, traversing sideways onto another route and convincing passer byes to drop you a rope.
I think the link cam design is too flawed for typical use and won't climb on them.
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Flashy P
climber
Sparks, NV
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Jun 10, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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I completely trust my gear, it os very easy to stay positive about it even on runouts when t he last clip is at knee level. The wood they use at the comping gyms is way dabb-ly- do! It is so strong,. and painted over with sticky rubber, there are big washers behind the bolts too. The quick draws are replaced once a week and the longer 30 foot ropes are replaced every day on the hard routes like the purple route at my gym whicj is undoable and probably 5.17a . If I stay positive, dedicate myself, train hard and eat enough creatine smoothies maybe I will someday pink point it. I may need to smoke more cigarettes too, I just started the smoking regimin and I've already lost 3 pounds! I try to get in at leadt 15 a day, I can even smoke while I'm pumping pullups on the campus board. remeber everyone, if you aren't falling you aren't at your limit, which means ytou aren't trying hard enough which means you need to train and stay more positive, even on the scary runouts and sketchy week old runners!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jun 10, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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Which pieces do you trust most? TCU's, Aliens C4's, C3's, Metolius???
Honestly, I trust a bomber passive placement over cams, though I'm usually lazy and just plug in a cam and go.
Oh wait, can I change my answer to 'a slung chockstone or horn'?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 10, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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I thought cams were cheating Fritz. Got over it and have been hooked ever since.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
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I like the old school adage of don't fall. If you don't fall, you can't get hurt, if you do fall, the gear might protect you, then again it might not.
I have popped a friend that was marginally placed in a flaring sandstone crack, but fortunately backed up with a bomber hex so I didn't crater.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 10, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
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I trust, but verify.
And back it up.
Heck, I'm not shy about putting three pieces in before launching into a crux that's feeling 50/50 for me.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 11, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
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Cowpoke:
Wife: [dismissive stare] Did you feed the dog?
Oooh, that's cold. We're climbing on my gear from now on!
Maybe that was her plan all along.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 12, 2010 - 11:27am PT
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interesting about stats, silver. i've noticed that there is great vulnerability the first two years people begin leading--they get into situations they just don't foresee. didn't know about that "spike" down the road. glad i survived it. what comes after that?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jun 12, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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"If you don't have implicit trust in gear and faith in your ability to place it, you should be clipping bolts or climbing in a gym.
And why exactly should I trust bolts place by someone with unknown skills that have endured unknown conditions?
Personally, I have faith in my placement abilities but an implicit distrust of gear. You name it; I've had it pull on me as well as at least a few other people I know. Moreover:
1. Cams are faith-based protection. You plug 'em in, observing a few elementary bits of conventional wisdom about appropriate location and cam compression. There's nothing physical about the placement that tells you the cam will hold. The physics involved in cam design, which I think I understand pretty well, involves only the most elementary first-order models. The governing concept of coefficient of friction may or may not make any sense for the aluminum/rock interface, and there is typically no attention paid to shear failure, which might be the actual failure mode in many cases.
Frankly, I find it surprising that cams work as well as they do. An often mentioned Metolius study found, over a wide range of placements, that "perfect" placements still had a failure rate of 1 in 20. From a field perspective, cam placements judged by experienced people are likely to be good, but there will always rare (but not exceptionally rare) failures that are completely unexpected. The system approach described above by Ksolem seems to be by far the best approach.
2. Nuts ought to be more reliable and are to the extent that once can form clear assessments of their strength based on the nature of the placement and the type of rock. But there is a substantial downside. Nuts lift from rope motions, and highly experienced climbers regularly misjudge the circumstances that cause this to happen. The protection you thought was bombproof might have been if it happened to be in place when it was needed.
For all these reasons, the "system" approach mentioned by Ksolem is the best long-term investment in continued health. We are playing with probabilities, and it is certainly possible to get away with a lot for a long while, and indeed maybe not have any of it catch up with us. But an unexpected failure happens in an instant, and what happens next will depend on what else was done besides the placing of a purportedly bombproof but now blown piece.
It seems to me that willingness to fall on gear is not some absolute but should also be based on one's estimate of the probabilities involved. Small cam with nothing backing it up? I'd say you're in do not fall mode. Large stopper keyholed in a horizontal crack with more stuff below it? Go for it. In between those extremes are a host of more nebulous decisions that are, of course, part of what makes climbing (which is to say trad climbing) interesting and challenging.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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There is no reason not to trust your gear, trusting your placing of the gear is another matter.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 12, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
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I don't know about that Jim, did you see that Link cam photo on the first page? I don't have any Linkcams but seems like for a failure like that described, their alloy mix must be off. Scary.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
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True, but human error trumps manufacturing defects by a large margin.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
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Was in Leavenworth on Tuesday and saw a young climber take a 45 ft. leader fall ending in an upside down position with his head 5 ft from the ground. He pulled a small cam placed badly while under duress and was held by a well placed .5 camalot. Score: equipment 1, climber 0, he's lucky to be alive.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jun 12, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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The trouble with "gear is good but fails because of human error" is that it quickly becomes a definition rather than an explanation.
Of the many studies I would love to see that will never happen, one would be to have climbers place a small cam, issue a judgment about what kind of load it could withstand (say in term of fall factor), and then test the cam to see how much the climbers understood about its solidity.
Stannard actually did this with small wired nuts when they first appeared. I suspect he understood protection systems better back then then anyone since---I've never heard of anyone else correlating their evaluations of gear with actual tests of the placements.
Personally, I doubt that many of us would do all that well in the cam judgment test, and yet we speak of human error in evaluating placements as if it is a failing that can be eliminated by some combination of common sense and experience. I fervently wish this was true, but suspect that it is not. Experience and common sense can surely reduce the number of way-off estimations but cannot eliminate them entirely. Best to try for some sort of redundancy, and climb with great caution when there is only a single piece between you and a really bad outcome.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 13, 2010 - 04:15am PT
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I'm with Cragman, what an odd topic. And Donini has it right, bad pro is all pilot error - even broken rock and broken gear, because the potential for each has to be factored into every placement.
All in all, I generally see and expect to see a lot of bad placements from two groups: folks crossing-over from sport climbing and folks who are alpine climbers first and rock climbers second. The former I understand, whereas the latter was a surprise on moving to the NW. But after years of seeing it, there is something about 'mountain climbers' that is just downright scary more often then not when they hit rock. Sure, there are alpine folk who are definitely solid with gear, but they seem to be in a minority in my experience over the years.
And then there's the fact that even in the mid-70's prior to sport climbings arrival, you could go to Eldo, the Gunks, or any other crag and after a bit you'd realize that only about 10% of climbers were true artisans with pro, another 10% good craftsmen, and about another 20% were competent but without much of a touch for the subtleties. That other %60? It seemed to me at the time they were always sketching to one degree or another and, in hindsight, nervously awaiting the birth of sport climbing.
Not everyone is a 'natural' with gear, but you definitely want to get to where you are competent climbing above gear without being nervous about your placements. In the end, the essential Callahanism - "a man's got to know his limitations." - was never more true then in trad climbing. That, and placing gear does require a certain level of what is sometimes called 'structural visualization', or the ability to visualize in three dimensions - to look at a placement and have an good sense of what piece[s] would be appropriate.
Overall my personal experience has been that if you have the requisite visualization skills then becoming solid or 'good' with gear is largely a matter of attention to details - getting a real good look at a placement to understand the basic geometry or 'architecture' of it and how it changes shape as it goes back. It also takes really paying attention to rock quality, subtle features and topologies, the level of 'grit' and grain, and how any chosen piece's stem is going to interact with the rock across it's length.
Another reason I see folks really sketching hard on gear is they either didn't learn or failed to grasp it's way more than a matter of individual placements; you're supposed to be building a coherent [rope] 'system' of coordinating placements. And if you don't get that you are likely either slinging things badly or not taking into account the effect of the rope [path] on individual placements or both. This can basically all be rolled up into slinging - and slinging is a particularly hard one for folks crossing over from sport climbing to 'grok' or learn. They often don't get it or underestimate its importance until bad things happen, and even then many still don't seem to understand that the slinging [or lack thereof] was the problem.
As for the folks preferring active to passive pro. Anytime I run across someone who predominantly 'thinks' about and looks for cam placements, I know I'm dealing with a neophyte regardless of how long they've been trad climbing. The universal positronicness, if not downright silky pleasure, of a perfect passive placement where the geometry fits like a glove just can't be overstated.
P.S. On that broken Link Cam: when you put a Link Cam on your rack, it's hard to miss that those cam lobe linkage tabs are real small, thin, and fragile looking; that if you torque them sideways or otherwise out of plane with the cams they are going to break. That means you should instantly recognize that a) these aren't 'regular' cams and can't be treated like they are, b) the stem needs to be oriented (and unobstructed) in-line with the vector of any potential fall, c) they may very well need to be slung, and d) you can't leverage the stem over any kind of edge or otherwise do anything which might cause them to rotate under load. But again, if you put it or any other piece on your rack then at that moment it's 'perfect' and 'is what it is' - if you choose to place it then it's up to you to work within its limitations.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jun 13, 2010 - 04:33am PT
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The universal positronicness, if not downright silky pleasure, of a perfect passive placement where the geometry fits like a glove just can't be overstated.
poetry Joseph.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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Le Bruce's case is kind of interesting. With the crack where it is, I wonder if it broke due to a sideways, or rotational motion. It you pull straight on the thing, everything should work right, but I could see something moving sideways and catching in that little slot where the second cam attaches. From a sideways rotation, if the side of the slot caught, it looks like a weak link.
Where he fell on Taurus is the start of the traverse so the cam was likley placed upward into the crack. It would be very easy and expected for the cam to be pulled sideways as the climber moves right.
Dang interesting, but what do I know? half my cams are chouinard camalots.
EDIT- Healyje beat me to it on a possible link cam failure explanation. At least I can say- I agree.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 23, 2010 - 01:52am PT
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If'n I put it in, for the most part I can trust it.
Sometimes it's mankey, but then again, if it's needed,
you never know, it might slow you down.
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spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley/El Cerrito
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:54am PT
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I'm pretty careful about backing up my gear and don't take a lot of falls on it. In 15 years of climbing I have pulled at least 3 crappy placements though, only one of which I knew was crappy. That was a camalot jr (purple I think) in a weird pod with lots of crystals in it on Rocktology (a rarely done Backcountry route near Tucson). I fell when a hold broke off while I was trying to get a better piece in. I whipped about 40 feet onto a nice fat bolt (on an 8.5mm double rope) and walked away bruised and scared and happy to be alive. There were no other opportunities for protection between the bolt and the pod as far as I recall. I've had a couple other pieces rip out under bodyweight, but never in a place where the consequences were dire - one was at the lip of the big roof on the Salathe pulling onto the headwall, I got complacent and weighted a cam that wasn't bomber, ended up taking a nice ride into space and had to jug my lead rope to get back on the route. That was quite invigorating!!!!
I've never climbed on Link cams but the design looks pretty prone to failure to me. The spot where it cracked is an obvious weak point - you don't see anything like that on a camalot for a reason. Thanks for posting the picture - after seeing that I think I'll avoid using them.
And I will second the notion that aid climbing and jugging on a route with lots of gear placements definitely helps to figure out what is bomber gear and what is not and how to sling your gear better. I learned a lot from aid climbing and jugging on big walls and it has definitely helped my confidence in my gear placements and systems.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 23, 2010 - 03:24am PT
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Irrelevant comments from the back row.
When all the new nuts were coming out in the 70's there was very little actuarial data. In one case I trusted a single nut protecting a deck fall from about 60 feet. Would not have been rational had I not personally done the hydraulic testing.
When cams first came out a number of us did not trust them. Prone to walk and they were just too complicated. Lot of materials engineerng in there, some of it potentially inadequate.
As I said back then, when making placements I found it helpful sometimes to stick my nose in the crack. If your eyes are up to it, putting your eyes closer to the rock at the placement gives you a better 3D visualization.
A very bad feature of failing placements has not been pointed out here. A failing placement supplies an impulsive force that can flip you upside down, as in the event Jim mentions above. At that point you are dead meat if there are more failures.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 23, 2010 - 04:10am PT
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Had a rurp catch a 25 foot overhanging fall once and a fixed knifeblade that you could wiggle with your hand back and forth catch an 8 foot slab fall.
that said, aid climbing teaches you a lot and I've stood on pieces that should have been good and after a minute or so, just ripped out from under me.
Sometimes I'll follow a lead, and as I am cleaning the gear each piece would be better in a slightly different placement. Some people are just not mechanically inclined and they are the cause of most of the "gear pulled" horror stories.
This is true but it's also true that gear moves around sometimes due to rope movement and so what the second sees isn't always what the leader placed (but should have made consideration for cams walking and nuts lifting up)
I trust my gear but tend to be in the "Don't fall" category of leaders. I run it out when I could almost be soloing but place two before real cruxes if I can
Peace
karl
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 23, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
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Haven't read all of the above, but my opinion is that people who learned to make placements with passive gear (those aging grays amongst us) have a better eye for solid placements. I know young climbers who just see a parallel crack and slam in a cam without ever looking at the possibilities. They seem to assume the camming action will hold in anything. But at least for myself I'm always looking for even the slightest indentations in which to plug my cam so that the natural shape of the rock helps with holding power. Climbing with hexes and stoppers was definitely good training for placing gear.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 23, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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Ditto rockermike, but add that time spent aid climbing, even easy aid climbing, quickly teaches one to carefully assess possibilities, and make the most of them.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 23, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
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I trust my gear but tend to be in the "Don't fall" category of leaders.
That's me too. I don't rush around leaping off of things so I can squeeze the next letter grade.
Plus, I don't trust any of it the way I used to.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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Seconding rockermike's comment re: the nuance of a cam placement... I carefully check the area for the optimal way to place a cam, finding a slight indentation, worrying over a flare in the front, or a widening in the back... is there a little ridge in the crack that will lock the cam into place and prevent it from walking? Will it sit better in the crack contours if I flip the cam over?
Of course if I'm hanging on a pumped arm in a crux and frantically struggling for something, I'm not as careful. But whenever I can I try to get it placed as well as possible.
And if I know or think a piece sucks, I'm on the lookout for the opportunity to make it better. But often the reason it sucks is because I'm nearly out of gear and don't have the right size, or need to save the size for the looming crux or the belay station, etc.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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Great stuff in here and a real post with real depth to the discussion. If you haven't yet, read or re-read Rgolds first post above. What more is there to say?
Arne
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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Trust it with my life.
Hasn't killed me yet.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Jun 23, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
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Some great post here!
This past year, it seems most of my climbing partners are half my age or younger. I often look at their placements, ( without comment), and have observed a common trait. More often than not, a cam will be placed, rather than a stopper.
I have seen many,"bomber" nut placements overlooked, where a cam was placed instead.
Many "older" climbers will trust a good nut placement over a cam. I'm one of them.
About 20 years ago, I built 2 hydraulic testing machines for Wild Things. At that time they were making climbing gear. I am planning to fabricate a variety of silver soldered brass stoppers, and test them at a local crag. I am curious to see the point of failure.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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Most often, I place nuts before I place cams.
A few complementary reasons:
A good nut placement, with a large enough nut (#4 BD stopper or equivalent) will hold a pretty high load factor fall.
....... is often quicker to set than a cam.
....... is almost by definition not going to create as much spreading force as a cam.
Nuts are MUCH cheaper if you've got to leave them.
Using nuts first means you've got a wider range of cams to choose from when you need them.
........often impresses the snot out of beginning climbers who may have never seen a nut in action. Excepting of course the nut who's leading.
Which all begs the question:
what's a good nut placement? About 1/2 the time its obvious. The other half.....creativity, ingenuity and nerve come to the fore.
I've set plenty of nuts and cams that I wouldn't want to fall or hangdog from. So why set them? I really don't have a good reason.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Do folks oppose nuts much, anymore?
A couple opposed nuts are hard to beat, for bomber gear.
I trust 'em, completely. They work.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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Last trip out I was mentoring a young climber. He'd been placing nothing but cams on his leads. So we went to Pine Line and I had him take only nuts. One placement I knew would be dicy without opposition. He figured it out with a little coaching from the ground. Was a good placement when I cleaned it.
I use opposition often. It's also useful to direct the pull on a cam that might rotate out. Especially at an anchor where the pull direction is likely to reverse. A nut directing the load on the cam.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Jun 29, 2010 - 05:32am PT
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I did most of my climbing back in the piton days and have never taken a fall on anything other than a pin. However, I came close to buying the farm by leading hard stuff before I had enough experience to protect the climb correctly. Put it this way, I would have tested the ground before the piton. I did a fair amount of some serious climbing for 5 years without mishap.
After not climbing for some years (and with nuts now in vogue), I was handed a rack of nuts and proceeded to lead a 70' 5.8 overhanging crack. These nuts were cool, no problem, I popped them into the crack as needed. Being way out of shape, I was burned out at the top and barely made it over. Unknown to me, just before my last desperate move the last nuts lifted out of the crack and slid down to my belayer's hands. I pulled a muscle in my neck using my jaw to grip the top so I could pop an elbow up for a mantle - absolutely desperate but not obvious to an outside observer. Exhiliarating until my belayer called my attention to the unimpeded curve of the rope from my hand down to his.
Me? I trust my gear. And, having lived past enough stupidities to learn some true things, I trust myself to fully familiarize myself with the use of any new gear of any kind before putting myself in a position where my life will depend on it.
I even do that when I rent a car.
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Tim Camuti
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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I really enjoyed learning oppositional placements and even nesting nuts. When I really want an absolutely solid wider anchor (harder with the fancy nuts being sold nowadays) I have been known to use stacked nuts. I've only placed these two or three times in 15 years of leading, but a great thing to have in the toolbox.
Passive protection is certainly my first choice and when I really need to trust it I build a system (opposition especially). Good example: Last anchor in a crack before heading out on the 50' or so of runout dike hiking on Surrealistic Pillar. First time lead, can't see around the corner, don't know what the 50' of runout looks like, so I stood on a dike and built a bombproof anchor. Then I can edge around the corner into the unknown assured that my anchor is bomber and I can turn my attention to assessing the runout climbing moves and not worry about placing more gear as soon as possible.
DON'T FALL leads to => All pro is psychological pro, but the more solid my psychological pro, the more present I can be for the climbing experience, which is what I'm in this for.
Climb safe, including a helmet.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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I think we are turning a psychological corner. Not a good one.
BITD before cell phones and the creation of organized rescues there was no one around. That placement in front of your nose would be all you would have.
Nowadays the introduction people get for climbing consists of standing around for hours in a crowd. Then you hit the rock with little more than that and your head all twisted up in a knot by those hours of idle conversation.
Aren't we setting ourselves up for a rescue a day?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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I've always been a fan of oppositional placements,
especially for multiple parties.
Hey, IHatePlastic, wanna use this for a contest?
Besides the location you could also run it for best caption!
And, no, "WTF" is not in the running.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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I thought people got wiser as they got older?
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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RokJox you da bomb! Hot shots who spit scorn -- who are you trying to keep alive that you are imitating? Take the truth available so you can apply it when the situation applies to you, say thank you and proceed. Pissing on the tree and clawing up the ground reeks of insecurity. Get over it!
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Manimal
climber
SLT, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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Bottom line is that people trust well placed passive gear far more than the pricier cams on our rack and that since the advent of the SLCD the art of protection has been fading. Therefore apprentice with someone with REAL experience, not just someone who has climbed longer than you. This way you will learn about directionals, opposing nuts, and when to stitch it up and when to just run.... Thank you for all the great input, it has really honed my own thoughts on using gear. I was starting to feel like I was the guy who wouldn't just place a cam, with out a runner, every 20 feet or so and call it good. The elders especially, who have really seen sh#t, tell it like it is.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jul 22, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Never trust gear. It doesn't deserve it.
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scuffy b
climber
Eastern Salinia
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Jul 22, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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How much do I trust gear?
I trust it with my life.
I know how to place cams that are good, I know how to place nuts that are
good.
I've been held by nuts, cams, pins and bolts.
I never want to fall on any of it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 22, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
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I trust gear, that I place, better than I trust most climbers out there.
But those whom I do trust are, way, better.
full rack of cams is $2000. In your dreams!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 22, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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Um, sounds spot - on, for most. Don't you think?
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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On a few occasions, when I only could use peenuts, I would set 2 nuts and equalize them with a sling.
Sometimes when all I can set is a peenut and it doesn't feel anywhere near bomber, sometimes it's all the psychological boost I need to power through a few moves to better protection. Why not?
The common mistakes I find when cleaning other people's gear is mainly over-camming, not placing the cam in the direction of fall (a big problem for Linkcams), not placing a long enough sling to minimize rope drag. With nuts, they usually aren't placed deep enough to prevent walking out with rope drag, or they are a size too big for the constriction.
I've read Freedom of the Hills a few times and still review it when I have a long downtime period. I've schooled some older folks who have been climbing waaayy longer than I have. I'm self taught for everything I do as I read as much as I can. I've only been climbing for a year and a half and mountaineering for 2 years.
I climbed with a guy a few weeks ago in the Valley and I repeatedly commented on his overcamming and he still didn't get it. On a few occasions I spent several minutes to work them out. So after that, if someone is going to do most of the leading, they will lead with their racks. Maybe they'll learn when they have to leave a piece of gear due to a bad placement.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 23, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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Just want to bump Ksolem's piece for its wisdom:
"In two years I will have 40 years of climbing under my belt, most of it trad. I can think of two times I had gear pull in a fall, and due to my cautious nature these pieces were backed up. I've taken some big falls, but never one of any consequence due to gear pulling.
Sometimes I'll follow a lead, and as I am cleaning the gear each piece would be better in a slightly different placement. Some people are just not mechanically inclined and they are the cause of most of the "gear pulled" horror stories.
I think many climbers 20 or thirty years ago had better mechanical skills than a lot of climbers today. After all, you could not get to the crags unless you could rebuild a volkswagen alongside the road with minimal tools and improvised parts.
I have two rules I follow when I am placing gear on a serious lead:
1.) Build a system. Do not end up in the crux depending on one piece.
2.) Never settle for second best. If there are doubts about a placement it can probably be better.
Of course there are times when you have to "plug and play," but that's where the system will save your butt."
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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After all, you could not get to the crags unless you could rebuild a volkswagen alongside the road with minimal tools and improvised parts.
LOL. That's awesome!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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WOW
I read a lot of these posts in this thread.
I must must have done everything wrong?
I must be real lucky too .....
Carry on ....
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MN_SlowTrad
Trad climber
MN
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Jul 23, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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Learning to climb in a place where you never get far from a ground fall, I did my apprenticeship under older guys that didn't pass good gear placements (almost all passive). Makes a slow climber, but alive. If you observe the architecture of the rock, and pick a piece (passive or active) that best suits the placement, why wouldn't you trust it???
The opposite is what I see from younger gym climbers who don't have anybody to learn from...i.e. Eldo-Bastille, 17 yr kid puts a large cam behind the flake before the move into the crack on P1 and decks when the cam pulls. This is a very straight forward climb no one should get hurt on and has a great placement at the bottom of the flake he just didn't "see".
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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What I observe a lot when climbing with others is the lack of observation of the Big Picture. Like placing some extra pro when above a ledge, protecting a traverse from a huge pendulum for either climber, etc.
I loaned an accidents report book to a guy I used to climb with as he was taking on more and more leads. Him and a buddy were climbing a finger crack. He fell when placing, next piece pulled, and he decked on a ledge. He wasn't seriously injured. Well, that same scenario was in that book I loaned him a week before his fall.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Jul 23, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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Nah, I always trust the integrity of the piece, it is the placement that is the questionable item. If I don't trust a piece of gear that I won't buy it.
I understand that Aliens were the exception to this but I never owned any so I never learned to doubt my gear.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jul 23, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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Pilot error vs. defective gear:
Yes, we've had occasional gear failures such as gate flutter, bad alien brazes, etc. I'd argue that far more common are things such as:
1. Bad eye for gear: Tipped out cams, poor nut placements, etc. Either a noob leader, or just a brain not wired well for the task at hand (i.e. some 40+ year veterans still place sh#t gear).
2. Ego: A lot of folks don't put in gear right off the belay out of some weird ego/boldness BS. I get lots of goofy responses when I request my partner puts something in before making the first tricky move on the route. I am less worried about them than I am about protecting the belay and me (i.e. don't screw your belayer into dealing with a factor 2 unless absolutely necessary). OK/marginal placements need not see a high fall factor, but folks often choose to run out things unnecessarily, skipping obvious bomber placements.
3. Bad slingage: Good nuts can get easily be zippered, and proper extension doesn't seem to come easy to the Sport converts in particular, but we have all failed to properly envision the run of the rope and turned a slammer set of nuts into a zipper waiting to happen.
4. Wrong/insufficient gear: Either out of poorness, thrift, boldness, error, or similar many leaders go up routes with a meager or wrong rack. Veterans know their risks pretty good, but plenty of folks go up a route without the requisite big cams, or brass, or number of pieces of a particular size.
So do I trust my gear 100%? Of course not, but mechanical gear failure is much less likely to kill me than so many other gear foul ups. A good conservative practice of keeping at least 2 pieces of gear between you and the ground/ledges, making sure the placements are frequent and well thought out will do so much more than wringing my hands about whether or not any one particular placement may be less bomber than I think it is.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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"A lot of folks don't put in gear right off the belay ..."
I used to love doing that just to scare the holy sh'it of the belayer.
They'd be trembling down there ...... hahaha
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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Jul 23, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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Nice, Moof and others. When I crater I will have fewer excuses.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 29, 2016 - 09:04am PT
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Great thread. A reminder to sell my still nearly unused Link Cams.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jul 29, 2016 - 10:05am PT
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link cams for crack jumars in parallel cracks
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jul 29, 2016 - 11:24am PT
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All gear and gear placements are good if you don't fall :-)
Curt
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 29, 2016 - 11:25am PT
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The only problem with Link Cams is their weight. I trust the gear I use, if I didn't I wouldn't use it.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jul 29, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
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I do have a grudge about the blue-plastic Forest Nuts sold in the early 1970's, due to a 1973 fall on a new route on the South-side of Harrison Peak in Idaho's Selkirk Range.
About 10' above a ledge, I didn't feel comfortable with trying a harder move free, so I slotted a big blue-plastic Forest stopper in the hand-crack, clipped in a sling, stepped-up, and started fishing for a good jam above it.
Suddenly! The Forest nut popped, and I flew down and out for a 12’-15' fall into space. The elastic rope bounced me back onto the ledge I had barely missed landing on “back-first”, with no damage to me.
I remember exclaiming: “ WOW! Glad I missed hitting this ledge.” (We are so clueless in our 20’s.)
Of course I led the crack again, using a metal stopper, then freed it on a later trip.
A 1972 photo of a couple of two Forest Blue plastic nuts, & some other early nuts on a combined rack, including at far left, what turns out to be an early and rare drilled SMC Hex.
The plastic stopper had a "gouge-mark" from top to bottom, where my body weight had ripped a big feldspar crystal through it.
I haven't trusted plastic nuts since, but otherwise have never seen a piece of gear fail to hold a fall. Of course there was the "water-knot" that pulled through on a sling when my pal Chris took a lead fall on it. It turned a trivial fall into a 20 footer. Chris was growling when he slid past me, since he knew the knot had failed.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 29, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
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Never heard of plastic nuts before.
I've placed some gear I did not trust, but it was because the placement was marginal, not because of the gear. The only falls I've had where gear ripped were on aid.
I did have a friend who zippered at Suicide. He was very experienced. I blame it on me not staying close enough to the rock to prevent outward force on the nuts.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jul 29, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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I used to practice falling all the time trying different pieces of gear to see what would hold and what wouldn't, usually with the test piece high and with two or three backups down lower. I did this because being scared to fall was such a performance limiting anxiety for me.
I learned that single pieces of gear can and do hold but I still don't trust that they necessarily will so I use the Ksolem and others' system method
vvvvv agreed my number one choice for must not fail gear. wish I had more of them
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 29, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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For those worried about trusting their gear, BUY TOTEM CAMS!!! hell yes!
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