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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 29, 2002 - 07:24pm PT
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In case you missed it, see Jake's comments in the Red Rocks 5.9... topic.
Basically, I feel like a frigging idiot since I've unintentionally retrobolted at least two 5.9 routes/variations that Jake had previously free-soloed. I've offered to chop them if Jake wants me to, and they'll be gone as soon as the pass opens if he just says the word.
Jake said nothing really easy in Tuolumne should be bolted since it's already been free soloed by someone, and that I should have expected that especially in the case of Goldmember - a very polished 5.9 golden dike starting two pitches up the West Face of Medlicott (aka Piss Easy).
But something was bugging me and I just figured it out: none of several very long-term and hard-core Tuolumne locals who have done Shagadelic (a 5.7/8 in the same area) or heard about it mentioned anything about people soloing over there. Also, Alan Bartlett is still putting up new 5.8 and 5.9 level climbs in Tuolumne, and how can he tell if those have been free soloed before?
Also, Goldmember is not that different from Fingertips and I remember Bachar showing a slide of himself free soloing Fingertips saying "soloing 10a slab is f*#king scarier than 5.12 overhangs." Add to that all the solo routes in the guidebooks - from Bard's Coffin (5.6-7 ish?) to Bachar Solo (5.9 near Golfer's Route) to the big ones like Solitary Confinement. Also, the face with Shagadelic and Goldmember on it gets increasingly difficult as you go left, eventually into 5.11c slab routes. At some point no one has actually free soloed up the face, which is slabby edges & knobs, and is a bit crumbly in spots.
So Jake, and others, how are people doing new routes supposed to tell if something has been soloed before but the soloists don't tell anyone?
And, the obvious second question: If soloists aren't telling anyone and they also expect their routes not to be bolted, what grade level is it OK to do new routes in Tuolumne? 5.10a? 10b?10c? Or is someone actually doing multipitch solos up unclimbed routes above that level? Or should it be only 5.13+ stuff on short pitches and 5.12 or higher on longer routes?
Obviously I don't want too many bolts, too many routes, squeeze jobs, regulation from too many climbs, hordes of people trampling sensitive areas, bolted 4th class, etc. Climbing ethics is not independent of our larger impact on climbing areas and I don't want to do harm.
Greg
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Hammer
Novice climber
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Nov 29, 2002 - 07:45pm PT
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In my humble opinion the fact that someone free solos a route does not make it off limits to anyone but another free soloist. I free solo some 5.9 routes and passing good trad placements or bolts doesn't detract from my experience at all. I think those who feel differently are into ego and exclusivity.
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Ron Olsen
Intermediate climber
Boulder, CO
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Nov 29, 2002 - 08:20pm PT
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Greg -
Please don't chop Shagadelic or any other route
you've put up that may have been free soloed prior
to your ascent.
Soloists should stake their claim to a route by getting
it in the guide book if they want to preserve a monument
to their egos and boldness.
I'm looking forward to doing Shagadelic
on my next visit to Tuolumne, and would hate to see
the route erased.
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PC
Advanced climber
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Nov 29, 2002 - 08:40pm PT
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any objections to me chopping astroman?
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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2002 - 02:00pm PT
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Ron,
I don't plan on chopping Shagadelic - even Jake thinks it probably ought to stay, and he didn't say he'd soloed it first - but if I KNOW a route has been free-soloed previously, and I bolted it unaware of that, I will definitely respect the wishes of the first ascent party - in this case the free soloist.
A LOT of people talk to me saying that "Solitary Confinement is bullshit - who is Bachar to make that awesome climb off-limits to almost everyone?" I don't buy that argument. Climbing is a combination of the risk and the difficulty, and Solitary Confinement is extreme in the former and should NOT be altered.
Greg
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Joe Climber
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 02:43pm PT
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Am I missing something? We're talking about public land in a National Park. We all pay taxes that go towards establishing and maintaingin access to this place. Why on earth would anyone think that soloing a route gives them the right to determine how that hunk of granite will be used in the future? That's got to be one of the most arrogant and out of touch ideas I've ever heard of.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 03:02pm PT
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Joe Climber,
You sound more like a politician than a climber with a sense of ethics and respect.
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DUDE
Novice climber
UT
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Nov 30, 2002 - 03:17pm PT
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I am going to side with Joe Climber. Ownership of a climb is bullsh#t. The more pressing issue is how the Land Managers (National Park Service) views climber activities and not my route ethics vs. yours.
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Hammer
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 05:41pm PT
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I too side with Joe Climber. Its not about ethics and respect, its about arrogance and ownership. I have great respect for anyone who free solos a first ascent but why should that be the only way it can be climbed for ever more?
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c4
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 08:12pm PT
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A non-ethics thought occured to me. If someone is soloing and they pass a bolt, they don't have the option of clipping if for safety. Therefore it would seem that bolting is not much of an issue for soloists. No need to add a bolt every 5 feet but where is the harm in changing a mandatory X climb to one in which you can survive a fall?
(Only in the case of a climb that was first climbed as a free solo)
(kicking himself for getting involved)
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bringmebeers
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 08:30pm PT
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I have a suggestion for any would be free-solo first ascentionists: place a bolt a few feet off the ground where your proposed solo line begins. climb back down to get rid of your drilling equiptment then go and solo your new route. it is now an established bolted line and if any of these homo wanker retrobolting faggots in the posts above add bolts to your established route (as they seem to want to do all the time) you can then go back and restore it to it's original status. don't forget to give your route an offensive name to rile up the scared c*#ks@cking "safe" climbers.
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Joe Climber
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 08:34pm PT
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Ethics are guidelines that should benefit the entire climbing community. At least in theory, this should be the goal of climbing ethics correct? This is most often the case I think and I'm thankful for it. I'm glad there is not a line of A0 bolts running in a straight line up the length of El Cap.
However, if you blindly follow guidelines that benefit only one individual at the expense of the rest of the community, then your precious ethics are simply elitist crap. In other words, there is a difference between ethics and fanaticism.
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Minerals
Novice climber
Cretaceous plutons
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Nov 30, 2002 - 09:35pm PT
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Does this mean that once someone ties into a rope, real ethics apply?
Or,
Does this mean that FA's should be put up with an ultimate goal of a "benefit (to) the entire climbing community"???
Just wondering.
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Aaron
Novice climber
Yosemite
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Nov 30, 2002 - 11:07pm PT
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I think some people might be missing the point in which jake was maybe trying to make. You should make an effort to at least preserve the style of the area. In toulumne meadows it is standard to have long runouts between bolts from easy to hard terrain and it is still safe. I don't think anyone would care if you were putting up routes with relatively the same style as other routes in the area.
Ethics are basically peoples opinions you will have extremes at both ends. Your going to have to decide for yourself what to do.
Aaron
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Slab-Dyno
Intermediate climber
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Holy Shit!!! Bringmebeers is back!!!
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Roger Brown
Novice climber
central coast
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Greg,
Never feel bad about the great things you are doing. Your ethics are not "spur of the moment things" but rather the result of a lot of thought. The key word is unintentional. Keep up the good work, proud to call you a friend,
Roger
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BCD
Novice climber
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Everyone, please scroll back towards the top and read the post from "Joe Climber". I think he ended the discussion, yet you all continue to talk and talk and talk.
I realize having your name in a book of "First Ascents" is a TERRIFIC boost to your EGO. The problem is...... it's just a rock! You can't own it! You can't put your name on it! You can't restrict other people from climbing it! It's not yours!
You can't have a list of "ethics" over something that belongs to the earth!
What the hell is wrong with you people??????
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Karl Baba
Novice climber
Yosemite
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I support what I've seen of Greg's contributions. They're quality, not botched, and not offensive to the Spirit of the Stone (as I feel it anyway)
First the purists want us to respect the condition of old routes with rusty bolts, sometimes with just a single 1/4 inch bolt at a belay.
Then, not satisfied with a sea of X and R routes, they suggest we be sure to keep the runouts long to fit in with the older routes, no matter how the sport has evolved.
All the while, hardly anybody whines about the sport bolted 5.13s in Tuolumne.
Good Thinking! It'll be real peaceful with few gumbies visiting to muck up the place.
Or maybe, newer voices will have something new to say that is equally valid and still respects the stone with a nod to history.
Peace
Karl
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Why are we protecting those damn Cro-magnon cave paintings and those lousy Native American petroglyphs anyway. I've taken a few art classes and I could do a much better job. No one owns that rock!
Some people just don't get it.
It's about the route stupid, it's not about the rock.
Dismissing this by saying it's "just a bunch of elitist crap" is simplistic. I assume we're all supposed to nod our heads and agree and think "elitism bad, egalitarianism good".
Most people putting up routes aren't doing it for the "community" or the public good. It may be ego driven, but that is beside the point.
The point is that they had the drive, the skill, the vision to CREATE routes. They are the elite in this sense only, so you don't have to genuflect when they pass or even respect them; they might be terrible examples of humanity in other ways. But we should respect the accomplishment. If you can climb it in similar or better style, fine, if not wait until you can, better yet go find some rock and put up your own Monument to Public Service for the Greater Good of the Community.
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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I started my last post before dinner and missed Karl's contribution before I posted the above.
For the most part I agree with Karl. I think the rebolting efforts of Greg and others are great and I don't think new ascents in Tuolumne need to be R or X.
What I have a problem with are those that give a shrug to history.
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