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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 29, 2002 - 07:24pm PT
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In case you missed it, see Jake's comments in the Red Rocks 5.9... topic.
Basically, I feel like a frigging idiot since I've unintentionally retrobolted at least two 5.9 routes/variations that Jake had previously free-soloed. I've offered to chop them if Jake wants me to, and they'll be gone as soon as the pass opens if he just says the word.
Jake said nothing really easy in Tuolumne should be bolted since it's already been free soloed by someone, and that I should have expected that especially in the case of Goldmember - a very polished 5.9 golden dike starting two pitches up the West Face of Medlicott (aka Piss Easy).
But something was bugging me and I just figured it out: none of several very long-term and hard-core Tuolumne locals who have done Shagadelic (a 5.7/8 in the same area) or heard about it mentioned anything about people soloing over there. Also, Alan Bartlett is still putting up new 5.8 and 5.9 level climbs in Tuolumne, and how can he tell if those have been free soloed before?
Also, Goldmember is not that different from Fingertips and I remember Bachar showing a slide of himself free soloing Fingertips saying "soloing 10a slab is f*#king scarier than 5.12 overhangs." Add to that all the solo routes in the guidebooks - from Bard's Coffin (5.6-7 ish?) to Bachar Solo (5.9 near Golfer's Route) to the big ones like Solitary Confinement. Also, the face with Shagadelic and Goldmember on it gets increasingly difficult as you go left, eventually into 5.11c slab routes. At some point no one has actually free soloed up the face, which is slabby edges & knobs, and is a bit crumbly in spots.
So Jake, and others, how are people doing new routes supposed to tell if something has been soloed before but the soloists don't tell anyone?
And, the obvious second question: If soloists aren't telling anyone and they also expect their routes not to be bolted, what grade level is it OK to do new routes in Tuolumne? 5.10a? 10b?10c? Or is someone actually doing multipitch solos up unclimbed routes above that level? Or should it be only 5.13+ stuff on short pitches and 5.12 or higher on longer routes?
Obviously I don't want too many bolts, too many routes, squeeze jobs, regulation from too many climbs, hordes of people trampling sensitive areas, bolted 4th class, etc. Climbing ethics is not independent of our larger impact on climbing areas and I don't want to do harm.
Greg
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Hammer
Novice climber
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Nov 29, 2002 - 07:45pm PT
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In my humble opinion the fact that someone free solos a route does not make it off limits to anyone but another free soloist. I free solo some 5.9 routes and passing good trad placements or bolts doesn't detract from my experience at all. I think those who feel differently are into ego and exclusivity.
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Ron Olsen
Intermediate climber
Boulder, CO
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Nov 29, 2002 - 08:20pm PT
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Greg -
Please don't chop Shagadelic or any other route
you've put up that may have been free soloed prior
to your ascent.
Soloists should stake their claim to a route by getting
it in the guide book if they want to preserve a monument
to their egos and boldness.
I'm looking forward to doing Shagadelic
on my next visit to Tuolumne, and would hate to see
the route erased.
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PC
Advanced climber
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Nov 29, 2002 - 08:40pm PT
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any objections to me chopping astroman?
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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2002 - 02:00pm PT
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Ron,
I don't plan on chopping Shagadelic - even Jake thinks it probably ought to stay, and he didn't say he'd soloed it first - but if I KNOW a route has been free-soloed previously, and I bolted it unaware of that, I will definitely respect the wishes of the first ascent party - in this case the free soloist.
A LOT of people talk to me saying that "Solitary Confinement is bullshit - who is Bachar to make that awesome climb off-limits to almost everyone?" I don't buy that argument. Climbing is a combination of the risk and the difficulty, and Solitary Confinement is extreme in the former and should NOT be altered.
Greg
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Joe Climber
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 02:43pm PT
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Am I missing something? We're talking about public land in a National Park. We all pay taxes that go towards establishing and maintaingin access to this place. Why on earth would anyone think that soloing a route gives them the right to determine how that hunk of granite will be used in the future? That's got to be one of the most arrogant and out of touch ideas I've ever heard of.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 03:02pm PT
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Joe Climber,
You sound more like a politician than a climber with a sense of ethics and respect.
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DUDE
Novice climber
UT
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Nov 30, 2002 - 03:17pm PT
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I am going to side with Joe Climber. Ownership of a climb is bullsh#t. The more pressing issue is how the Land Managers (National Park Service) views climber activities and not my route ethics vs. yours.
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Hammer
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 05:41pm PT
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I too side with Joe Climber. Its not about ethics and respect, its about arrogance and ownership. I have great respect for anyone who free solos a first ascent but why should that be the only way it can be climbed for ever more?
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c4
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 08:12pm PT
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A non-ethics thought occured to me. If someone is soloing and they pass a bolt, they don't have the option of clipping if for safety. Therefore it would seem that bolting is not much of an issue for soloists. No need to add a bolt every 5 feet but where is the harm in changing a mandatory X climb to one in which you can survive a fall?
(Only in the case of a climb that was first climbed as a free solo)
(kicking himself for getting involved)
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bringmebeers
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 08:30pm PT
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I have a suggestion for any would be free-solo first ascentionists: place a bolt a few feet off the ground where your proposed solo line begins. climb back down to get rid of your drilling equiptment then go and solo your new route. it is now an established bolted line and if any of these homo wanker retrobolting faggots in the posts above add bolts to your established route (as they seem to want to do all the time) you can then go back and restore it to it's original status. don't forget to give your route an offensive name to rile up the scared c*#ks@cking "safe" climbers.
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Joe Climber
Novice climber
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Nov 30, 2002 - 08:34pm PT
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Ethics are guidelines that should benefit the entire climbing community. At least in theory, this should be the goal of climbing ethics correct? This is most often the case I think and I'm thankful for it. I'm glad there is not a line of A0 bolts running in a straight line up the length of El Cap.
However, if you blindly follow guidelines that benefit only one individual at the expense of the rest of the community, then your precious ethics are simply elitist crap. In other words, there is a difference between ethics and fanaticism.
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Minerals
Novice climber
Cretaceous plutons
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Nov 30, 2002 - 09:35pm PT
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Does this mean that once someone ties into a rope, real ethics apply?
Or,
Does this mean that FA's should be put up with an ultimate goal of a "benefit (to) the entire climbing community"???
Just wondering.
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Aaron
Novice climber
Yosemite
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Nov 30, 2002 - 11:07pm PT
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I think some people might be missing the point in which jake was maybe trying to make. You should make an effort to at least preserve the style of the area. In toulumne meadows it is standard to have long runouts between bolts from easy to hard terrain and it is still safe. I don't think anyone would care if you were putting up routes with relatively the same style as other routes in the area.
Ethics are basically peoples opinions you will have extremes at both ends. Your going to have to decide for yourself what to do.
Aaron
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Slab-Dyno
Intermediate climber
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Holy Shit!!! Bringmebeers is back!!!
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Roger Brown
Novice climber
central coast
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Greg,
Never feel bad about the great things you are doing. Your ethics are not "spur of the moment things" but rather the result of a lot of thought. The key word is unintentional. Keep up the good work, proud to call you a friend,
Roger
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BCD
Novice climber
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Everyone, please scroll back towards the top and read the post from "Joe Climber". I think he ended the discussion, yet you all continue to talk and talk and talk.
I realize having your name in a book of "First Ascents" is a TERRIFIC boost to your EGO. The problem is...... it's just a rock! You can't own it! You can't put your name on it! You can't restrict other people from climbing it! It's not yours!
You can't have a list of "ethics" over something that belongs to the earth!
What the hell is wrong with you people??????
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Karl Baba
Novice climber
Yosemite
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I support what I've seen of Greg's contributions. They're quality, not botched, and not offensive to the Spirit of the Stone (as I feel it anyway)
First the purists want us to respect the condition of old routes with rusty bolts, sometimes with just a single 1/4 inch bolt at a belay.
Then, not satisfied with a sea of X and R routes, they suggest we be sure to keep the runouts long to fit in with the older routes, no matter how the sport has evolved.
All the while, hardly anybody whines about the sport bolted 5.13s in Tuolumne.
Good Thinking! It'll be real peaceful with few gumbies visiting to muck up the place.
Or maybe, newer voices will have something new to say that is equally valid and still respects the stone with a nod to history.
Peace
Karl
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Why are we protecting those damn Cro-magnon cave paintings and those lousy Native American petroglyphs anyway. I've taken a few art classes and I could do a much better job. No one owns that rock!
Some people just don't get it.
It's about the route stupid, it's not about the rock.
Dismissing this by saying it's "just a bunch of elitist crap" is simplistic. I assume we're all supposed to nod our heads and agree and think "elitism bad, egalitarianism good".
Most people putting up routes aren't doing it for the "community" or the public good. It may be ego driven, but that is beside the point.
The point is that they had the drive, the skill, the vision to CREATE routes. They are the elite in this sense only, so you don't have to genuflect when they pass or even respect them; they might be terrible examples of humanity in other ways. But we should respect the accomplishment. If you can climb it in similar or better style, fine, if not wait until you can, better yet go find some rock and put up your own Monument to Public Service for the Greater Good of the Community.
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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I started my last post before dinner and missed Karl's contribution before I posted the above.
For the most part I agree with Karl. I think the rebolting efforts of Greg and others are great and I don't think new ascents in Tuolumne need to be R or X.
What I have a problem with are those that give a shrug to history.
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Matt M
Intermediate climber
sf, ca
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OK I'll bite even though this is one of the oldest "no right answer" topics in climbing...
First off, even though I'm not always a fan, I do believe to some degree that FA parties have some "claim" to the route. Their work, vision etc etc. Hell, if we throw all history out the door climbing (well, almost anything) loses a part of its soul. So yes, respecting those that came before us is usually a good thing in my opinion.
NOW, solo FA are a different story IMO. Soloing is an extremely personal thing - your life in your hands but it's a selfish pursuit as well. (I solo too) Your success soloing only matters to you BUT your failure matters to many. With that idea - consider this scenario, extreme yes, but extreme ideas have less grey area to discuss.
RC.com posts a new article talking about this new, killer crag somewhere. We're talking rifle, rumney smith, ceüse killer. It says only a route or two has been put up but there's TONS of routes to go in 5.10 - 5.13. Now lets say some guy that can crank like no ones buisness and who also (for whatever reason) has nothing to lose reads the article and heads to this place. He spends weeks there SOLOING everything he can - 3-4 routes a day maybe all the while documenting and naming everything. A month in the crag is almost climbed out - he suddenly eats it - game over style. NOW, all the FA's are in there, the FAist is gone so we can't ask him anything. WHAT HAPPENS TO SAID KILLER CRAG?
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Karl Baba
Novice climber
Yosemite
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Just a reminder what's at issue here in my mind. No one in this thread, especially Greg is suggesting retrobolting the old, bold lines. That's another issue and the great concensus seems to be none of that without FA party approval.
Most folks support replacing old, original bolts with newer, solid ones. Even trad stalwarts like Clevenger added a second bolt to the orginal one bolt belays on routes like Sunshine.
What I'm supporting is Greg putting up his own, new lines at the difficulty and safety he sees fit.
He seems to be establishing a dialog with the FA guy in the case of Solo routes and I'm confident they'll work things out. FA rights on solo routes are more controversial. I have put up routes solo and don't tell folks or expect them to remain pristine. "Solitary Confinement ***5.9" pisses me off but I respect it in keeping with the community. But that's a diffferent issue as well.
Greg's asking, should a moderate, yet well protected route be accceptable in the meadows. I say yes, although hopefully done with the class and vision that Greg has shown.
Peace
karl
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Kurt Jensen
Novice climber
Monterey
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I climbed Shagadelic this past season, and enjoyed it. It's a quality line. I've also climbed many trad and old bolted lines at Tuolomne. I like both. Sometimes I'm in the mood to test myself on an old classic with a serious runout, and sometimes I'd rather not.
The fact is that are sport evolves and changes. The historical record remains of all past ascents, but that shouldn't dictate that all future Tuolomne routes match someone or some era's style. This whole battle has happenened so many times before, such as Warren Harding and Royal Robbins. This isn't new.
New controversy will come along.
Keep up the good work, Greg. Climb it and see for yourself, or don't bother.
The day I climbed Shagadelic, I had a long talk with TM grill parking lot fixture, Ron Kauk. Told him where I was headed off to climb, and this made our talk longer. I respect Ron, but disagree with his sentiment. He was unhappy with Greg's route, hasn't been there, and isn't likely to be searching for new 5.8 or 5.9 climbs. He couldn't really support his reasons for his displeasure with it. Mostly, he seems to wish that the secret wasn't out and that there weren't so many climbers coming to Tuolomne. Yet his picture graces the guidebook, and many of his closely bolted routes are in the guide book. They just happen to be 5.13.
I'm sure they are good. I can't pull down on 5.13, so I'll continue to enjoy quality classic runouts AND quality new first ascents like Greg's.
Enough Said,
Kurt
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donor
Novice climber
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Greg,
Could you please clarify whether you use your own money to bolt these lines, or does it come from the ASCA.
In other words, if I make a donation, will it go to new route activity in the meadows or just simply anchor replacement and rebolting existing lines?
Thanks.
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Jerry Anderson
Novice climber
Yosemite
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I keep on telling myself that I won't get invoved with these things but every once in a while something strikes a chord. So here goes, hate me and call me names I don't care at all. At least my real name is here to slander.
Obviously the question will never be answered to complete satisfaction because no one knows where the grey areas shade to a definate answer. Should some (emphasize some) old, classic, moderate or easy free solos be bolted for the "masses" or should climbing be restricted to only the elite? Should city parks ban football, basketball or baseball because the "masses" don't perform to elite levels and therefore bring down the level of these sports? There isn't as big a seperation between these two thoughts as it seems at first.
If people were not permitted to play sports in the public parks why would they care enough to support the pro's? If the "masses" are excluded from climbing why should they care if land managers or developers ban the sport entirely? I certainly prefer a day on the rock or ice with no one around and since I have limited free time I absolutely hate the lines on some walls. But people are also a resource. Without the overcrowding of tourists in Yosemite, all those people who love the Valley, might there have been no opposition to the NPS plans for high rise luxury hotel units at Swan Slab? Without the "masses" sending in donations to the Access Fund what would access be today or in the future? I personally like the idea of tons of safe, easier routes for the "masses". Those that want to enjoy the sport in a casual manner can go have fun without killing themselves. Overcrowding? Yeah, quite possibly but also quite possibly they are casual climbers because they have real jobs. Real jobs= real $$$= real influince in keeping the anti-climbing land managers in line.
Not many "natural" lines left in the Yosemite front country so that means bolts. Where do you draw the line? That is another one of those unversal questions with no answer, just a lot of anger. In any activity there will be the elite, those who consider themselves to be the elite and then all the rest. In any activity it is the all the rest that support the elite. Most of the true elite are pretty cool and liberal. It's the extremists on either end who are the dictators and feel they have the one true answer for everyone and are willing to use force to enforce their will on everone else. The Osama bin Laden climbing teams.
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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2002 - 03:41am PT
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To donor:
ALL of my new routes are done with bolts that I personally purchase with pro-deals (you could confirm with Fixe and Petzl reps if you'd like, I also have a few camo Metolius I bought 6 years ago). I receive no salary from the ASCA so that’s not an issue either. I buy Powers (aka Rawl) bolts through a friend who works at a construction supply company (he arranges big discounts for the ASCA too). I’m still working on two boxes of bits I bought before I started rebolting (great bits, one lasted 70 holes, so I use the bits for rebolting too). I don’t have any star power so no one gives me bags of bolts (as many climbing companies do for well-known climbers), so being ASCA director does not contribute to my ability to bolt new routes in Tuolumne (in reality it severely detracts since I wouldn’t have sore elbows all the time if I didn’t rebolt, and I’d have more time for new stuff as well).
To Kurt (and others):
As far as Ron Kauk, he initially welcomed Shagadelic; but he was dismayed at the speed that it became popular. I see - and to an extent share - his views, which are similar to why he opposes publishing any bouldering guide to Tuolumne even though pictures of him bouldering in Tuolumne attract visitors. As he said, he regrets a lot of the things that he's done in the popularization of the sport. I don't like how some people label him as a hypocrite; he is thinking about the sport and trying to do good, which is something we all should emulate whether or not we reach the same conclusions.
Greg
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donor
Novice climber
money not mouth
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Thanks for the clarification Greg.
Personally, I think new routes in Toulumne are a big mistake - particularly closely bolted routes. The impact is huge, and overwhelmingly negative. I respect your contrary opinion, but find it disappointing.
However, I am a huge supporter of your rebolting efforts. Thank you, thank you, thank you, your work is deeply appreciated.
I'll make another donation as soon as I am able.
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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2002 - 12:02pm PT
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To donor: thanks, and thank you for your opinion on new bolted routes in Tuolumne. I think a few better-protected easier routes adds to the climbing in Tuolumne, despite a contrary opinion voiced by many; I also think that there are enough such routes by now. I think that there are too many well-bolted harder sport climbs in the Meadows (some spots aren't too far from grid-bolting), but I rarely hear that from people.
Greg
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dufas
Novice climber
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Greg:
You have an incredibly balanced view on this whole bolt thing. Thanks and keep it up.
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A real climber
Novice climber
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How do we know that Jake really did this? I've never seen hime get higher that 15' on some boulder problem.
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Mr T
Novice climber
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Since John Muir free-soloed Cathedral Peak does this mean I can go put some bolts on top?
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Matt
Novice climber
SF
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It seems to me that the whole idea of respectimg the ethic of the 1st ascentionist, while admirable and apparently PC (and a good place to start?), seems to breakdown at either extreme.
If someone went to a new (undeveloped) area and cleaned and soloed all of the opportunities, and those climbs took little or no gear, would we all just agree never to install a bolt or an anchor?
What if that same 1st ascentionist grid bolted the cliff, ignoring the gear opportunities and aesthetics, would it then be OK because they put the routes up? I think there has to be some reasonable middle ground, hopefully one where less is more.
I suspect that we default to the 1st ascentionists ethic partly because that middle ground is so hard to find, and partly because the original style is right there in front of you (and sure- they might have done it 1st!)
(unless they solo it and then rip some well intentioned guy like greg barnes, here online, for bolting their solo... ouch)
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Crack Whore
Novice climber
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Im gonna bolt all of Bachars free solo's !!!!!!!!!!
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etrier
Novice climber
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The reason we've (nearly) always let the first ascent party decide how a route should be protected is simply because it's the easiest answer to the questions "Who gets to decide how many bolts a route should have?"
Without a reasonable answer to that question we get desecration of the holiest of places, like the summit of Cathedral Peak.
I'd also like to point out that bolting a FA is a statement of ownership at least as strong as soloing it. A more visible statement.
The rock resource is becoming rarer. Land managers WILL be getting more involved in what we can and cannot do as climbers. Especially if we don't show ourselves to be thoughtful and responsible, on the rock and online. Like Greg.
It's my opinion that if someone solos a route then says nothing about it to guidebook writers nor anyone else, they should be content with the memory of their experience.
Larry Scritchfield
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Percieve reality!
Novice climber
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Dec 25, 2002 - 11:22pm PT
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Too bad we can't live in the sierras like the native americans, or marmots, or lichen.
Did Muir really do the first ascent of "Cathedral Peak"?
Insects crawl all over the face of El Cap.
What is climbing to a bird?
Overbolting is like suburban sprawl.
A "home" is so much more than shelter, and more destructive.
Safety doesn't require comfort.
Convenience and comfort destroy Earth.
Minimize impact.
Have fun just by being here, you won't always be!
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Hammer
Novice climber
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Dec 26, 2002 - 09:53am PT
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'desecration'?...'holiest of places'?
Is this a climbing forum or the 700 club?
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jmlangford
Intermediate climber
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Dec 29, 2002 - 12:01am PT
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A free-solo FA does not mean only free-solosists can climb the route, in my opinion. I don't want grid bolting but bolts added to make the climb a little safer than sure death should not be a problem. FAers do not own the rock. What are you going to do about many of the older routes where the FAer is dead? how are you going to get in touch with them?
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John
Novice climber
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Great!
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Trad4life
Advanced climber
The Valley
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Greg you outta pull your head out of your ass and leave well enough alone. You've done a fine job rebolting routes, but now you're starting to fix a little here..a little there...put the friggin drill down for a while and get a f*#king life. Let other people rebolt or not for a change and just go climbing without your drill - all of your views on climbing involve which size drill bit to use.
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Anti-establishment
Advanced climber
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I think the mere thought of a first ascentionist being able to dictate what happens in the future on a PUBLIC piece of rock is utter bull! In fact, the run-out climbs in Tuolomne piss me off so bad that I recently(just before the snow closed the road) added bolts to two routes. I added two bolts to the top face portion of Great White Book and added three bolts to Bachar-Yerian. They are reasonably spaced(not sport-bolted) but the intent was to make the route a little bit safer. If some ego-maniac like Bachar can take a choice piece of rock in the most gorgeous alpine country anywhere, and make it off limits to people that value their lives, then I aim to change that!
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Trad4life
Novice climber
The Valley
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Anti-establishment you are going to die...not from climbing, but from locals who will rip your sorry fag ass limb from limb. You want to add bolts to make it safer? NO!!! GET SOME F*#KING BALLS!!! You don't add bolts, you get bold...something your puny mind and oversized ego couldn't possibly comprehend. A person does an FA that's it - deal with it. You want to modify a route do it in your homos only climbing gym..seen you f*#kers swapping semen in the back of the bouldering cave...pathetic. Wanna add something? Add a dick to yourself and then maybe you wouldn't be such a whiny-ass sniveling loser. Go f*#k yourself and remember if we see you you're gone.
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anti-establishment
Advanced climber
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hey trad boy,
The funny thing was that I used a power drill. You egomaniacs that just think you own a route because you are stupid and don't care about dying crack me up. You tell me to grow bigger balls. If some moron wants to free-solo something and someone else wants to put a couple of bolts up to maybe just risk injury instead of death, let him do it. I should just go up there and bolt friggin' everything. Nothing is worse than a good climber that acts above people that aren't quite up to his stupidity level and just wants to be safe. You tell ME to grow balls? Meet me up there where my new bolts are and I am going to die? Is that a threat? You crack me up. You are probably some freakin' wimp that doesn't climb anything more than a minute or two from your car. What routes have you put up? Let me jknow so I can retrobolt them too!
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jmlangford
Novice climber
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Come on trad and anti, you guys are getting violent. geez! In regards to first ascents and telling people about it...I am not a hardcore climber but I have done a few FAs when I was younger. My brother and I didn't tell anyone about them and when a guidebook came out someone else claimed the FA. We got a good chuckle out of it. It was good enough for me that I had the memory of doing it. It wasn't terribly important to me what people did with the route later. I know I am in the minority here with that opinion but I have always come down on the side of less restrictions and regulations. However, I see the point about land managers getting pissed if there is a an overabundance of bolting, etc. I just wish we could trust people to be self-police but there are always going to be morons that ruin it for everyone else.
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Trad4life
Advanced climber
The Valley
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Anti-f*#khead: F*#K YOU.
You're bluffing. Just go ahead a place a bolt - it will be your last you flaming f*#khead. Don't be surprised when your brakes mysteriously fail causing your vehicle to plunge off the highway...we'll see who's laughing then jerkwad.
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your 4th grade teacher
Novice climber
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Dear Trad4life,
You aren't very educated are you? Why don't you and your bad languange stay off this site, no one appreciates seeing such a foul mouthed, dufus rant and rave. Keep it to yourself.
Keep up the good work Greg. Sure I'll see you around next summer.
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jmlangford
Novice climber
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Thank you teacher.
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Unclecharlie
Novice climber
Can't say
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I cut up my 4th grafde teachre and ran her thru the chipper it was so much fun!
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Trad4life
Advanced climber
The Valley
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Teacher you really crack me up with your fawning obsequiousness towards Mr. Barnes...pathetic. Do you really think I even care for one nanosecond what your miserable opinion is??? Not at all and thanks for trying to bring some decency and decorum to this post...ha!!! What are you the hall monitor?? All I can say to you and every last one of you is this - FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. I know you can't read anything longer than the cap of a Lucky Lager so let me say again F*#K YOU. To those of you who don't like it don't read it, it's my expression of free f*#king speech.
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