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Matt M
Intermediate climber
sf, ca
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OK I'll bite even though this is one of the oldest "no right answer" topics in climbing...
First off, even though I'm not always a fan, I do believe to some degree that FA parties have some "claim" to the route. Their work, vision etc etc. Hell, if we throw all history out the door climbing (well, almost anything) loses a part of its soul. So yes, respecting those that came before us is usually a good thing in my opinion.
NOW, solo FA are a different story IMO. Soloing is an extremely personal thing - your life in your hands but it's a selfish pursuit as well. (I solo too) Your success soloing only matters to you BUT your failure matters to many. With that idea - consider this scenario, extreme yes, but extreme ideas have less grey area to discuss.
RC.com posts a new article talking about this new, killer crag somewhere. We're talking rifle, rumney smith, ceüse killer. It says only a route or two has been put up but there's TONS of routes to go in 5.10 - 5.13. Now lets say some guy that can crank like no ones buisness and who also (for whatever reason) has nothing to lose reads the article and heads to this place. He spends weeks there SOLOING everything he can - 3-4 routes a day maybe all the while documenting and naming everything. A month in the crag is almost climbed out - he suddenly eats it - game over style. NOW, all the FA's are in there, the FAist is gone so we can't ask him anything. WHAT HAPPENS TO SAID KILLER CRAG?
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Karl Baba
Novice climber
Yosemite
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Just a reminder what's at issue here in my mind. No one in this thread, especially Greg is suggesting retrobolting the old, bold lines. That's another issue and the great concensus seems to be none of that without FA party approval.
Most folks support replacing old, original bolts with newer, solid ones. Even trad stalwarts like Clevenger added a second bolt to the orginal one bolt belays on routes like Sunshine.
What I'm supporting is Greg putting up his own, new lines at the difficulty and safety he sees fit.
He seems to be establishing a dialog with the FA guy in the case of Solo routes and I'm confident they'll work things out. FA rights on solo routes are more controversial. I have put up routes solo and don't tell folks or expect them to remain pristine. "Solitary Confinement ***5.9" pisses me off but I respect it in keeping with the community. But that's a diffferent issue as well.
Greg's asking, should a moderate, yet well protected route be accceptable in the meadows. I say yes, although hopefully done with the class and vision that Greg has shown.
Peace
karl
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Kurt Jensen
Novice climber
Monterey
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I climbed Shagadelic this past season, and enjoyed it. It's a quality line. I've also climbed many trad and old bolted lines at Tuolomne. I like both. Sometimes I'm in the mood to test myself on an old classic with a serious runout, and sometimes I'd rather not.
The fact is that are sport evolves and changes. The historical record remains of all past ascents, but that shouldn't dictate that all future Tuolomne routes match someone or some era's style. This whole battle has happenened so many times before, such as Warren Harding and Royal Robbins. This isn't new.
New controversy will come along.
Keep up the good work, Greg. Climb it and see for yourself, or don't bother.
The day I climbed Shagadelic, I had a long talk with TM grill parking lot fixture, Ron Kauk. Told him where I was headed off to climb, and this made our talk longer. I respect Ron, but disagree with his sentiment. He was unhappy with Greg's route, hasn't been there, and isn't likely to be searching for new 5.8 or 5.9 climbs. He couldn't really support his reasons for his displeasure with it. Mostly, he seems to wish that the secret wasn't out and that there weren't so many climbers coming to Tuolomne. Yet his picture graces the guidebook, and many of his closely bolted routes are in the guide book. They just happen to be 5.13.
I'm sure they are good. I can't pull down on 5.13, so I'll continue to enjoy quality classic runouts AND quality new first ascents like Greg's.
Enough Said,
Kurt
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donor
Novice climber
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Greg,
Could you please clarify whether you use your own money to bolt these lines, or does it come from the ASCA.
In other words, if I make a donation, will it go to new route activity in the meadows or just simply anchor replacement and rebolting existing lines?
Thanks.
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Jerry Anderson
Novice climber
Yosemite
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I keep on telling myself that I won't get invoved with these things but every once in a while something strikes a chord. So here goes, hate me and call me names I don't care at all. At least my real name is here to slander.
Obviously the question will never be answered to complete satisfaction because no one knows where the grey areas shade to a definate answer. Should some (emphasize some) old, classic, moderate or easy free solos be bolted for the "masses" or should climbing be restricted to only the elite? Should city parks ban football, basketball or baseball because the "masses" don't perform to elite levels and therefore bring down the level of these sports? There isn't as big a seperation between these two thoughts as it seems at first.
If people were not permitted to play sports in the public parks why would they care enough to support the pro's? If the "masses" are excluded from climbing why should they care if land managers or developers ban the sport entirely? I certainly prefer a day on the rock or ice with no one around and since I have limited free time I absolutely hate the lines on some walls. But people are also a resource. Without the overcrowding of tourists in Yosemite, all those people who love the Valley, might there have been no opposition to the NPS plans for high rise luxury hotel units at Swan Slab? Without the "masses" sending in donations to the Access Fund what would access be today or in the future? I personally like the idea of tons of safe, easier routes for the "masses". Those that want to enjoy the sport in a casual manner can go have fun without killing themselves. Overcrowding? Yeah, quite possibly but also quite possibly they are casual climbers because they have real jobs. Real jobs= real $$$= real influince in keeping the anti-climbing land managers in line.
Not many "natural" lines left in the Yosemite front country so that means bolts. Where do you draw the line? That is another one of those unversal questions with no answer, just a lot of anger. In any activity there will be the elite, those who consider themselves to be the elite and then all the rest. In any activity it is the all the rest that support the elite. Most of the true elite are pretty cool and liberal. It's the extremists on either end who are the dictators and feel they have the one true answer for everyone and are willing to use force to enforce their will on everone else. The Osama bin Laden climbing teams.
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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2002 - 03:41am PT
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To donor:
ALL of my new routes are done with bolts that I personally purchase with pro-deals (you could confirm with Fixe and Petzl reps if you'd like, I also have a few camo Metolius I bought 6 years ago). I receive no salary from the ASCA so that’s not an issue either. I buy Powers (aka Rawl) bolts through a friend who works at a construction supply company (he arranges big discounts for the ASCA too). I’m still working on two boxes of bits I bought before I started rebolting (great bits, one lasted 70 holes, so I use the bits for rebolting too). I don’t have any star power so no one gives me bags of bolts (as many climbing companies do for well-known climbers), so being ASCA director does not contribute to my ability to bolt new routes in Tuolumne (in reality it severely detracts since I wouldn’t have sore elbows all the time if I didn’t rebolt, and I’d have more time for new stuff as well).
To Kurt (and others):
As far as Ron Kauk, he initially welcomed Shagadelic; but he was dismayed at the speed that it became popular. I see - and to an extent share - his views, which are similar to why he opposes publishing any bouldering guide to Tuolumne even though pictures of him bouldering in Tuolumne attract visitors. As he said, he regrets a lot of the things that he's done in the popularization of the sport. I don't like how some people label him as a hypocrite; he is thinking about the sport and trying to do good, which is something we all should emulate whether or not we reach the same conclusions.
Greg
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donor
Novice climber
money not mouth
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Thanks for the clarification Greg.
Personally, I think new routes in Toulumne are a big mistake - particularly closely bolted routes. The impact is huge, and overwhelmingly negative. I respect your contrary opinion, but find it disappointing.
However, I am a huge supporter of your rebolting efforts. Thank you, thank you, thank you, your work is deeply appreciated.
I'll make another donation as soon as I am able.
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Greg Barnes
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2002 - 12:02pm PT
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To donor: thanks, and thank you for your opinion on new bolted routes in Tuolumne. I think a few better-protected easier routes adds to the climbing in Tuolumne, despite a contrary opinion voiced by many; I also think that there are enough such routes by now. I think that there are too many well-bolted harder sport climbs in the Meadows (some spots aren't too far from grid-bolting), but I rarely hear that from people.
Greg
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dufas
Novice climber
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Greg:
You have an incredibly balanced view on this whole bolt thing. Thanks and keep it up.
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A real climber
Novice climber
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How do we know that Jake really did this? I've never seen hime get higher that 15' on some boulder problem.
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Mr T
Novice climber
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Since John Muir free-soloed Cathedral Peak does this mean I can go put some bolts on top?
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Matt
Novice climber
SF
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It seems to me that the whole idea of respectimg the ethic of the 1st ascentionist, while admirable and apparently PC (and a good place to start?), seems to breakdown at either extreme.
If someone went to a new (undeveloped) area and cleaned and soloed all of the opportunities, and those climbs took little or no gear, would we all just agree never to install a bolt or an anchor?
What if that same 1st ascentionist grid bolted the cliff, ignoring the gear opportunities and aesthetics, would it then be OK because they put the routes up? I think there has to be some reasonable middle ground, hopefully one where less is more.
I suspect that we default to the 1st ascentionists ethic partly because that middle ground is so hard to find, and partly because the original style is right there in front of you (and sure- they might have done it 1st!)
(unless they solo it and then rip some well intentioned guy like greg barnes, here online, for bolting their solo... ouch)
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Crack Whore
Novice climber
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Im gonna bolt all of Bachars free solo's !!!!!!!!!!
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etrier
Novice climber
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The reason we've (nearly) always let the first ascent party decide how a route should be protected is simply because it's the easiest answer to the questions "Who gets to decide how many bolts a route should have?"
Without a reasonable answer to that question we get desecration of the holiest of places, like the summit of Cathedral Peak.
I'd also like to point out that bolting a FA is a statement of ownership at least as strong as soloing it. A more visible statement.
The rock resource is becoming rarer. Land managers WILL be getting more involved in what we can and cannot do as climbers. Especially if we don't show ourselves to be thoughtful and responsible, on the rock and online. Like Greg.
It's my opinion that if someone solos a route then says nothing about it to guidebook writers nor anyone else, they should be content with the memory of their experience.
Larry Scritchfield
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Percieve reality!
Novice climber
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Dec 25, 2002 - 11:22pm PT
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Too bad we can't live in the sierras like the native americans, or marmots, or lichen.
Did Muir really do the first ascent of "Cathedral Peak"?
Insects crawl all over the face of El Cap.
What is climbing to a bird?
Overbolting is like suburban sprawl.
A "home" is so much more than shelter, and more destructive.
Safety doesn't require comfort.
Convenience and comfort destroy Earth.
Minimize impact.
Have fun just by being here, you won't always be!
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Hammer
Novice climber
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Dec 26, 2002 - 09:53am PT
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'desecration'?...'holiest of places'?
Is this a climbing forum or the 700 club?
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jmlangford
Intermediate climber
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Dec 29, 2002 - 12:01am PT
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A free-solo FA does not mean only free-solosists can climb the route, in my opinion. I don't want grid bolting but bolts added to make the climb a little safer than sure death should not be a problem. FAers do not own the rock. What are you going to do about many of the older routes where the FAer is dead? how are you going to get in touch with them?
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John
Novice climber
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Great!
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Trad4life
Advanced climber
The Valley
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Greg you outta pull your head out of your ass and leave well enough alone. You've done a fine job rebolting routes, but now you're starting to fix a little here..a little there...put the friggin drill down for a while and get a f*#king life. Let other people rebolt or not for a change and just go climbing without your drill - all of your views on climbing involve which size drill bit to use.
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Anti-establishment
Advanced climber
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I think the mere thought of a first ascentionist being able to dictate what happens in the future on a PUBLIC piece of rock is utter bull! In fact, the run-out climbs in Tuolomne piss me off so bad that I recently(just before the snow closed the road) added bolts to two routes. I added two bolts to the top face portion of Great White Book and added three bolts to Bachar-Yerian. They are reasonably spaced(not sport-bolted) but the intent was to make the route a little bit safer. If some ego-maniac like Bachar can take a choice piece of rock in the most gorgeous alpine country anywhere, and make it off limits to people that value their lives, then I aim to change that!
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