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Dog
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:15am PT
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Keeping with Link, If you have a gripe, have a solution.
I dont so I will keep it short.
Camp 4 sucks.
Yup. In my opinion it does. Last month will be the last time I ever camp there. Filthy says alot for my dislike there not to mention that woman gatekeeper, Pinky. Horrible attitude she had and it just kinda went downhill from there.
Whatever though. There are certainly other places to camp in the valley and outside the park if we have to.
But we should'nt have to!
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:29am PT
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"Camp 4 Sucks"
Yeah it does. If you want to soak in the international climber-dude ambiance, and enjoy being hassled by rangers and bears while drunken fools howl and play guitar till 2:00 AM, I guess it's cool. If you want to climb, there are better options. In 15 years of climbing in the valley, I've maybe spent a week there. I doubt I'll ever camp there again.
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Gripper
Mountain climber
Nor. Calif.
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:53am PT
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akclimber is right on!
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:58am PT
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How exactly would you all make it better? That's my question.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:06am PT
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"How exactly would you all make it better? That's my question."
Silk purse, sow's ear. Kill all guitarists? Not feasible.
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toyon
climber
davis, ca
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:04am PT
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okay, i'll say it again: work within the system to hand over stewardship authority to the AAC. Have them re-vamp the place, ala Grand Teton Climber's Ranch. GTCR is open for all ($8/night for AAC members, $10/night all others). AAC has the political clout and the cultural currency to make it happen, Course, a real stand up job might also require C4 to be fully closed for lengthy intervals, which would cause a sh-itstorm among a vocal minority. But just imagine....
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/community/ranches-huts-teton.asp
-st
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:40am PT
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How exactly would you make it all better?
Look, I hate to repeat myself, but since all you Link loving delusional freaks seem to fundamentally misunderstand what's going on here...well, here goes. LINK IS A TOOL of the NPS. You like him because he is nice. I agree. He is a very likable guy. Problem is, he is paid by the NPS to be liked by the climbers so that the NPS can quietly go behind everybody's back and make the C4 system more and more like a cage to keep the animals (I mean climbers) at bay. Got it?
The solution is simple. Link, you need to fire yourself. Not quit. Fire. The NPS won't fire you, but the community of self-respecting climbers happily will. We'll take you back, man, and make you one of us. We'll take over camp four, and refuse to leave until the specter of bureaucracy surrounding C4 is abolished once and for all. I know this sounds entirely manifesto-ish, but I'm being serious. Take over camp four monkey style!!! Block the entrance to the parking lot with a few dozen broken down cars. Remove the wheels, lock up the axles with locktite, make them impossible to tow, and have a good ole' fashion sit-in. As a community, we can come up with a list of demands and refuse to leave until they are met. Remember first and foremost: federal lands belong to YOU the tax paying citizen of the USA. If they are mismanaged, then it is your right and responsibility to stand up against those involved in their mismanagement. Do not be fooled by those with a friendly smile and attitude. Diplomacy is one of the most deceiving forms of propaganda, and the power of rhetoric has a long history of destroying some the worlds biggest superpowers (take the Greek Empire for example). When a war of words doesn't work, make yourself heard through action.
And you know what really pisses me off: those signs that say "your fee dollars at work." Not because I haven't spotted a single one in C4. But because, the last time I checked, NPS fee dollars don't go to the NPS! They go to the federal budget, and the feds on the hill allocate how much money the NPS gets each year to propagandize us into believing that our fee dollars actually do something other than helping to fight a war to get us more oil to drive our cars to a place the feds don't want us to stay. Ummm.... what we've got here is more than a failure to communicate. We've got an all out f-u-c-king hypocrisy. Literally f-u-c-king! Who? US, up our silent f-u-c-ked up asses.
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alasdair
Trad climber
scotland
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Oct 20, 2005 - 04:11am PT
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i LOVE camp 4 and have travelled by bus from vancouver and from flown from ediburgh to climb there. IS the id policy only enforced during the peak summer months? if so it shouldn't effect camp 4 when it really is a climbers campground.
its about the only place in the us where you can climb without a car!
I was there in the spring before they brouught in the id thing but just lived out a bearbox and left my bags under a tree, i can think of nowhere else with such a fun supportive atmosphere the shared sites means a sense of community abscent from the standard park service campgrounds.
I didn't like the atmosphere at the AC place though it was good value.
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Pierre
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:33am PT
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I used to love Camp 4 - I don't anymore...
Why?
The attitude from the Rangers, especially the ones at the Kiosk, they welcome people with some VERY negative energy - sad...
Here is a thought;
The seven day limit is Not a very good solution to cut down visitors to the valley, I say - close the roads to Yosemite!
You should not be able to go further than El Portal by car - let people hike or bike in!
No Shuttle buses, No Taxis, No Cars, No Trains!
Instead of 4 millon visitors a year - there would maybe be 100,000 people coming, and it would be people who cares about the valley who would come. People like hikers and climbers and photografers and such... Not people who drive in and out and don't even remember seeing El Cap (I have met too many of those visitors).
Let old folks and handicapped people visit by using elctrical golf carts.
I have spent about 24 months total over the years in C4, the best friends I have - is the one's I've met there, the state and future for C4 doesn't look very good, I am deeply sad for that...
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Oct 20, 2005 - 08:02am PT
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Not to be a smartass or anything, but LEB may be onto something here. Next time I roll into C4, I'm goin' in my 54' motorhome and marching up to the kiosk to tell the lady: "It's cool, there's no booze in there. So, where do I park?" She may actually crack a smile at that one.
Sorry LEB, couldn't resist.
-Bob
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Oct 20, 2005 - 08:18am PT
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Toyon,
Your suggestion has merit. The model has worked before, and yes running a campground or a national park is a industry. There needs to be pros managing the job.
I won't stay there, but if anyone camps there and pays for it, you should demand results.
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Oct 20, 2005 - 09:07am PT
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LEB,
give up booze, why thats...thats....thats....going to lead to me getting up with the sun, climbing more, smelling better, and yes not trashing everything or pissing off my fellow campers. Like you I enjoy my beer, but moderation is alway a good thing.
Brian
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:08am PT
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hey all,
i am writing a letter to Aronld (the govinator) after my little trip to Yose this season because i was so unbeilivably pissed of with the park that i thought that i should try and do somthing about it. i can put it up on here for you guys to read if you like but i dont have it on me today
the NPS wont listen so mabey he will. esp since he should understand that training for a hard sport requires more time than 2 weeks max stay.
i also mention the voulme of traffic and the prices for food
its not done yet but it soon will be
complaining in true british stlye
Rob
(ohh and also your park is too hot for my delicate UK skin can you cool it down for me too =OD)
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Dog
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:26am PT
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Hey Billy Goat,
I understand your point about our involvement with Link, the Tool. True, he is employed by NPS and whether he be a full time "ear," "employee or tool," he still has the in with the NPS much furthur along than a great many of us.
I am not a big supporter of the Rangering system in the park. I have had my problems with them and dislike the way they treat people in general also. What impressed me most about Link is his ability to listen and approach a problem with an attitude of interest. Not the attitude , I dont make the laws, I just enforce em sons a bitches.
Lastly, I will take and respect the fact with Link that he is an educated individual, making meager pay for doing something that he really does enjoy. Take my word for it, this guy could "fire" himself and pick up a job anywhere.
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:34am PT
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LEB! You are suffering from the same disease as Link: HICS aka Head In the Clouds Syndrome. Are you totally out of your mind? Do you really think banning alcohol is going to increase park spending on C4? Do you really think it will increase the size of an overcrowded campground? Oh, and do you really think climbers are going to respect such a ridiculous rule? Sure, abuse of any substance or system make for unruliness, but don't be absurd. As a climber's campground, potential visitors know exactly what kind of scene they're walking in on. If you can't get enough quiet, go sleep in the boulders (or, in your case, your gas guzzling RV).
And might I point out that your ownership of such a vehicle should alert us to a level of social irresponsibility on your part that should call into question your mindset as a whole. Frankly, I don't think any environment-loving climber could take your opinion very seriously. I would love to know how you can go a day without a drink while you chug around the country burning millions of gallons of cancer causing, earth destroying black gold.
The level of apathetic hedonism that your actions demonstrate is despicable. Please be advised: think about someone other than yourself if you have any hope of this planet being livable for your children and your children's children.
As to the thoughts about banning private automobiles from the valley: let me say outright what a brilliant idea this is. From what I've heard, it seems to work very well in Zion. Why the NPS in Yosemite hasn't been able to actualize such a plan is totally beyond me. They've been talking about it since before I can remember. I'm pretty sure they won't do it because they're money hungry. They fear they'll loose contracts with curry company (the only organization who actually makes $ off of you), which might lead to a major budget setback. Meaning, if the feds saw the lack of income in Yosemite they would cut back on spending for the park.
Wanna do something about it? Give as little to the curry company as possible. Don't ever buy anything in the valley unless absolutely necessary. Considering the hypocrisy of leasing our land to a private company to make money off of us, you might have a good argument for stealing. After all, corporate monopoly and taxation without representation (i.e. price gouging) are considered criminal (and to some degree) unconstitutional acts. As Gandhi said: an unjust law must be broken.
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:37am PT
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Haggis--hold the presses! You're writting to the wrong political power. The govinator is a state employee, and the park is part of our federal system!
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Peter
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2005 - 10:39am PT
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"I hate to say it but I think a lot of this whole NPS stuff boils down to the bucks. "
YES!
The current administration clearly believes that National Parks should generate their own revenue. That's not about to change.
Like I said, I'd be happy to pay $20 to stay at C4 if it was cleaned up and some new sites/parking/bathroom/kitchen facilities added. And how about being able to register without having to stand in line for an hour at 7 in the morning and then be interrogated by the grumpiest ranger I've ever met.
Think about the explosion in popularity of climbing in the last 10 or 20 or 30 years - I know, what a bummer, all these wannabes, you were all real climbers back in the day, but I digress...
Now look at C4 - same size, same gravel parking lot, same bathrooms, same busted off concrete posts. I love Yosemite and have met some great people there as well as some as#@&%es but thats not my point.
C4 is a squalid joke, and it doesn't have to be that way.
P.S. It's not the Curry Company anymore. Curry was sold to Delaware North years ago. Delaware North is a huge east coast (Minnesotta?) company that now controls 100% of the concessions in 90% of US National Parks and sleeps very, very close to the NPS. Delaware North runs the Awanhee, Deegans, Curry Village, Yosemite Lodge, you name it. Delaware North is MUCH worse than Curry.
Edit - a little research (see below) shows that Delaware North at least returns a significant portion (20%) of it's gross revenues back to the Park compared to Curry Company back before 1993 (1.5%).
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:45am PT
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My 2 cents:
-Reopen closed campgrounds! So what if they flood every 25 years...they're campgrounds. We can get more picnic tables.
-Allow multiple concessionaires. Competition is good for the consumer. Ate at the Ahwanee w/ my GF's folks last year and it was really bad, nevermind the price.
-The no-cars thing is great, but the sticking point I think has been the question of where to put the zillion-car lot that such a move would demand.
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:46am PT
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Dog,
I don't doubt that Link is really listening. Nor do I doubt that he thinks he can make a difference. Nor do I doubt his education (philosophy degree from Yale, I believe). I believe the term I've used before is brainwashing. Yes, brainwashing. It's the word you use to reflect someone's level of denial about their position in life. The dude thinks he can make a difference, but could anybody really take that seriously. The people who really make the decisions about the way the park runs aren't even in the park. They're wearing suits and ties and are arguing about what kind of investments they can make to further capitalize on us, the god-fearing people. Well, maybe not all of us, but I think this sentiment helps to better illustrate my point about Link's position in the greater scheme of the NPS.
I believe I once read that Link works for the NPS because he believes in their mission. Well, I don't think anyone of us could disagree with the mission statement of the NPS. But mind you, actions speak louder than words!
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:52am PT
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Peter--thanks for the clarification. I guess I've ignored their services for so long, I'm a little out of the loop as to who exactly has the monopoly.
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