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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:06pm PT
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An example of hard trad climbing : Crofts' on sight of Van Bellodrome (13c) ignoring extraneous bolts. Bornes' onsight solo of the first 7 pitches of Flying Buttress (12a) FFA. Houldings outing on Right Side of El Cap - 7 pitches (13R) no added bolts. New Route on Falls Wall? The list goes on.....
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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A bad example of hard onsight climbing, Mick being AlDude's invisible top rope.
Remember that Al.
Mick
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:23pm PT
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You mean the time you dropped my battery pack rap bolting my toprope - then Gabrielle fired it calling it 5.9. That abortion stands fallow to this day - lesson learned!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:36pm PT
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i think the brits are still twisting over that trip of grammici's in the late 70's when he hiked all the hardest routes in britan. mountain magazine profiled that little outing in an article titled "the quiet amercan".
nowadays, it'd be "the ugly american".
whatever the fine points, this fellow should be very satisfied with his send. proud, no doubt. who cares how it gets labeled, mick?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:39pm PT
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The route is what it is and took major bullocks.
Ironically, the idea of "Trad" didn't much exist before "Sport" appeared, and this ascent is clearly within the category of "Trad" that we, as ever, argue the ethic of.
So far, it's almost unheard of for even a 13c to be FA'ed in the style that somebody like Bachar and Al would accept as ethically pure. That 14 b/c would require different tactics at this point in our evolution is obvious and it's just a matter of game playing how much you'd want to discount the ascent because of that. The guy took a 70 footer climbing unimaginably hard. How much bolder do you expect from the guy?
The Brits are too bold.. They the trad fanatics if you ask me. When I see somebody chalking up for one of those R/X rated face climbs on Middle Cathedral, it's almost alway a Brit.
Good, bad, smart, insane, you decide, but I'm not crying "wimp" on this one.
Congrats
Karl
From Yosemite where we have a long trad ition of dissing outsiders
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:40pm PT
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"I'm thinking of going to find Osama bin Laden on-sight solo and collect that reward money.
But I was also thinking of trying to on-sight swim to Hawaii with none of those weeny back-up boats around....can't decide yet."
Sorry John, If you've seen the ocean (or if someone told you about it) it ain't on-sight.
Get back to work on those high tops will ya?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:42pm PT
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Nah,I think you guys are still pissed because Fawcett and Livesey hiked the second ascent of Astroman, then a few years later Moffat flashed Phoenix and just about every other hard route in the country (same year that Cubby did Requiem I think).
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:54pm PT
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nah, i think you guys are just pissed because america's recently developed fascination with good scotch whisky has driven the prices up for everyone, especially brits.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:57pm PT
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This thread improves by the minute.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 05:59pm PT
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Second Ascent?
hahahaha! That's a good one!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 11, 2006 - 06:09pm PT
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didn't kauk do the second ascent, going back and leading all the pitches?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 11, 2006 - 06:15pm PT
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Surely, such a pious and pure man as yourself could not condone going back to a route, after having had the opportunity to check out all the holds, protection etc while jugging every third pitch on the "first ascent". Hopefully the new guidebook will give Fawcett and Livesey their long overdue credit.
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Alun
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 06:24pm PT
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It is a shame that this thread has degenerated into pointless point-scoring, when there is a good debate lurking here somewhere.
Karl Baba made a very good point a few posts above when he wrote:
"So far, it's almost unheard of for even a 13c to be FA'ed in the style that somebody like Bachar and Al would accept as ethically pure. That 14 b/c would require different tactics at this point in our evolution is obvious and it's just a matter of game playing how much you'd want to discount the ascent because of that. The guy took a 70 footer climbing unimaginably hard. How much bolder do you expect from the guy?"
I would love to see John Bachar's response, given his experience and reputation, and opinions as laid out earlier. The shame is that he has probably written off this thread due to the amount of pointless crap that's been posted.
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Muffin
Mountain climber
UK
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Apr 11, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Was this a trad ascent? Not according to some of you, and that's fair enough. Is this a trad route though? Yes - there's a bolt-free crack waiting for anyone to improve the style as they see fit.
Climbing often seems to need a hero to show the rest of us what can be done. When that mental barrier of the impossible is breached then people start to think about attempting things they may never have even mildly mused upon before. Didn't the sport climbing 'revolution' show people just how hard they really could climb?
What Macleod has done is show us that E11 can be led, placing gear as you climb. So he didn't do it ground up? Show him who's the man. So you didn't manage it onsight? Watch it get downgraded and gang-soloed as the hotshots of the future headpoint the latest 9c+ sickfest.
Trad is alive and well and it's still evolving. Dave has set the bar a little higher.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:06pm PT
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I'm not making a value judgement here - I was just asking a question about whether or not the "Hardest Traditional Route in the World" was rehearsed. Don't matter to me what the guy did, I just think sometimes the term "trad" gets a little misunderstood - that's all!
Peace, jb
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:12pm PT
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I think what Bachar is driving at here is not to do with how well the guy climbed, as far as climbing goes, but whether we will, over time, blur the lines which define trad climbing.
Someone earlier on this thread referred to the "Old Dads" who saw .12+ as the limit. Some of how this limit occurred was due to the fact that certain tactics were not considered fair.
Personally I say "Props" to the guy for climbing waaay hard and proud. But, Trad is Trad.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:15pm PT
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Sounds like he climbed the route using trad gear, but not really trad style.
The climbing media has sort of tweaked the definition of trad to refer solely to the gear one uses. More marketing than anything else.
Style seems largely ignored today, maybe because it's complicated and subjective.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
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Nitpicking can get carried too far.
For instance, Bachar had to hang on hooks to bolt "Bachar Yerian" on lead. So that means he used aid right? It wasn't completely clean. But then the onsight is finished and he can't go back and onsight FA the route right? That means virtually ALL hard routes that need bolts for pro can NEVER be trad by the purest definition.
But nobody thinks "Bachar Yerian" is a sport climb.
But what I see Bachar posting is just "Disclose the tatics" and folks can make their own judgements.
There is obviously NO concensus on what the details of trad ethics are. Don't try and claim there is. Folk have alway argued about the ethics for rap bolting, hook bolting, and even cams, topos, and chalk.
It is what it is. Few of us get laid or paid for it, and those who do are often best compensated for their self promotion skills rather than pure style.
If you want to make pure style your game. Have at it. Just don't be a hypocrite.
Or do, that's humanity for you
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:37pm PT
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Hahahaha hahahaha hahaha Oh mannn this thread is beautiful.
WTF am I laughing about? Nobody gives a schit anyways...
hahahahahahahahaha ...........
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