Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
|
bAd......goofy right? I have, as Todd says, never seen this until climbing at the Hills. I had to untwist, as Tom suggests, after every friggin' climb! Maybe we hit every worn mussy in the place? Harrison. I tie in to anchors just like you. Two slings coming through both harness loops with two small lockers on the ends. Clip in, untie(or not if clipping top rope draws placed), thread enclosed anchors for rappell/lowering and tie back in. Not rocket science but as said before, I think convenience keeps you uneducated, or you develope lazy habits.
Edit: Better add that after clipping slings into anchirs that I pull up 4 or so feet of slack, tie an overhand knot in the slack and attatch it to my harness before untying to thread, lest the sticklers take me ro task....I have never top roped off existing anchors, mainly because bitd mostly just two bolts so had to set up for top rope. Once again convenience makes one lazy. I'd say the large majority of top ropping we saw at the hills was directly off the hooks.
|
|
H
Mountain climber
there and back again
|
|
I think an important aspect is to clip under the existing gear in the hanger. Sometimes clipping on top of existing gear levers on the hanger.
Looking forward to climbing with you Tony. Heading out on a road trip after the first of the year. Will check in with you before I go and see whats up. Maybe we can do some service.
|
|
The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
|
|
It pains me to see people lowering and and top roping off existing anchors. It is so disrespectful to the sport and the people who spent their time and often their own money so we can have fun.
That is why I gave up doing so after ten or so years of service.
Amazingly I actually confronted several different groups doing so over the years and asked them to set up an independent system when TRing out of respect for those that do the work maintaining the area. Each time they basically told me to fk off.
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
|
Would never tell you to eff of Chief. It is disheartening to put in the effort only to have the hard work worn out so soon. Have done a lot of ASCA replacement in TM. But different outcome due to different styles. I'd rather, as you have, use enclosed anchors at the top of my FA's. Don't care if they're popular or not. I'm willing to put in the hard work of replacing hooks but not if the work is wasted. Wonder what the wear life is on the system you and MisterE posted? I'm willing to replace on my dime if they're a better solution. Harrison, come on out. Room with a view of Mt. Tom.
|
|
Splater
climber
Grey Matter
|
|
I use my own worn biners for toproping,
but it's not just moochers who wear down the Mussy hooks.
Some of the people who install them also toprope thru them.
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
|
Current standard at the home crag in Tenino. Low traffic and on site caretaker means the stainless steel captive biners stay in great shape, and we routinely top rope through them.
Years ago we did one of those multi pitch Kevin Pogue routes in City of Rocks, over by Stripe Rock or something. Anchors were open cold shuts, and it was scary having three of us on the hanging belay during the rappels, you could see those things flexing, and we backed up through a bolt with a draw. Scary anchors suck, and there is no reason to have them in a cragging situation, save that stuff for the desperate alpine retreat.
|
|
Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
|
When we have free coffee and Access Society fund raisers at our local sport crag Skaha, I usually print and hand out this article by Russ Facente. Amazing how this is new for too many people.
|
|
H
Mountain climber
there and back again
|
|
|
Dec 14, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
|
Yeah Rolfr, very cool. That eliminates some of the hassle and steps. Even if you are going to rappel, which ultimately should be done. Just feed the rope to half way, set up your belay, untie, unclip and rapple.
I am going to use this in the future.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Dec 14, 2015 - 05:42pm PT
|
Pretty much SOP in the desert since the mid eighties or so. Which of course,is where Moab resident and uber climber Russ F probablly picked it up, in his formative years
|
|
Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
|
|
|
Dec 14, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
|
Aye yer summits in chains!
|
|
Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 14, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
|
The Alabama hills are junk! Why waist hardware and time there. Bad rock, bad views, short routes and no one to talk to. You could get as much pleasure spreading glue on a wall and throwing kitty litter at it, then trying to commence climbing on it. I've even seen some local idiot out there soloing.... Almost frolicking! The Rock is hollow... Even drum like. And the locals..... You have been through Lone Pine and seen the Locals? The climbs are mediocre and the grit is to gritty for the men of hard grit. I would rather walk in the scorching heat naked from Lone Pine to the gateway of the Happys to get myself some proper bouldering. It's dusty, its windy and the mussy hooks are failing. Why even bother? I've even heard there banditos in the rocks, waiting to steal your horse.... Or dog bowl!
Absutley pure garbage!
|
|
H
Mountain climber
there and back again
|
|
|
Dec 14, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
|
Myles, you forgot no bathrooms. Cant climb behind the portal store all the time!.
Good to see you posting up. I love the hills in spite of the mussy's etc.
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2015 - 12:36am PT
|
The last climb we did there is called "Dirty, Useless and a Downclimb".....Truth
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2015 - 10:15am PT
|
Matt_m wrote:
US climbers resist vertical arrangements because they all want to use two QDs in a "Vee" configuration even though there's zero need to do so.
I would disagree with this statement. Yes, with modern materials the chance of a single bolt failure, or any other link in the chain, is greatly diminished, but it can still happen. In the photo of your vertical setup the failure of the top bolt will shock load the other bolt. Do you really want that? Clearly, there is a way to have a vertical setup that won't shock load if there is a failure.
Also, I am not sure how the vertical setup doesn't twist the rope while the horizontal setup does.
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2015 - 10:27am PT
|
Matt,
All good points and I think most, including myself agree that no-one "should" be forced to learn anything. We climbed again in Alabama Hills over the weekend and thought more about anchors. We climbed in the Candy Shop area and just about every kind of anchor from chains to mussy, cold shuts etc. are there. We also climbed to some "captured" ss carabiner anchors.
What I found was in putting it all together for myself and partner, factoring in ease of use, safety, avoidance of having to untie vs. clipping directly, cost etc. was that there need to be different anchors for different situations but the best overall we found for short climbs was the captured ss biners. They seem to function well in various positions where as the mussy'
s are not so good on the horizontal because there are many failed gates (springs gone etc.). Also, we are still factoring in the one off of the twisted rope. Our situation may be rare but one fatality is too much for me and the severely twisted rope can do amazing things with an open anchor. It may be a rarity but one I don't want to encounter again. So I still lean towards closed anchors but the captured biners address this problem as they are much better quality i.e the gates then tow hooks which are not designed with climbing in mind but provide a cheap alternative. Cost is definitely a factor and surely was/is to the FA'ist putting up tens of climbs. I put up climbs and will mix and match anchors based on what I think is best, not because I think others should learn this or that. Moving to the east side has definitely put a crimp on the budget (and I think this has a lot to do with anchor choice) but I intend to use captured ss biners on short, one pitch climbs. But I will stick to a closed anchor set up for multi-pitch because of varying terrain.
As to the entrenched "v" system I agree with your point that we in the US are slow to change but you left out the history as to why. As climbing styles changed, so to did anchors. Most anchors were placed by hand back in the day and 1/4" ers were the norm and equalizing (like what is still done with gear anchors now) was deemed important. With the advent of power drills and the ease they provide to place a single bombproof bolt, equalizing is not so important any more. As shown in your images, anchors can now rely on one point and use a second as back-up. Placement of 1/2" ss anchors is becoming more the norm, particularly in sport but you can surely imagine, (if you've done bolt replacement) how hard it is to hand drill a 1/2" inch x 4" bolt. So things take time to evolve as do peoples views of that evolution. We tend to forget the small why's and wherefore's of the evolution.
Edit: bhilden beat me to it by moments......echoing his thoughts and I still like equalization but will trust, based on experience, a single bombproof bolt with backup if I encounter it...
|
|
MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2015 - 10:34am PT
|
LOL, Myles!
I've even seen some local idiot out there soloing.... Almost frolicking!
It's just that Dick doesn't like people...but he does like to frolick!
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2015 - 10:41am PT
|
DMT...agree. Also consider lowering when we bail off, or fall on bolts on the climb. We all do it all the time. A single 3/8'x 2" bolt of any material is bomber. But I couldn't download your examples.....
|
|
JimT
climber
Munich
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2015 - 11:00am PT
|
In the photo of your vertical setup the failure of the top bolt will shock load the other bolt. Do you really want that?
By definition (since itīs a lower-off) there is the entire pitch length of climbing rope in the system at the absolute minimum, falling an extra foot or so if the top anchor fails is irrelevant when it comes to impact force on the lower bolt. Lowering from the top of a 25m route itīs going to be a FF0.02 at worst.
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2015 - 11:07am PT
|
Now that I can see them.....I was going to mention that we have always found chains to be the easiest "closed system" (translates to safety?) anchors to deal with, (as Harrison mentioned above?) because you can simply clip into a link higher then the rappel/top rope/lower point instead of clipping bolts above a mussy or quick links and then untie and thread the lowering points i.e. chain end link, ring etc. I agree the sh-t show we all see when someone attempts to untie for rapell/lower off or top rope set up, especially, and ironically when an open face convenience anchor is there. It is harder to set up through bolts or quick links above a mussy and obviously you don't have a choice with the old cold shuts bolted directly to the wall which we found at the Candy Store area. Chains are also cheap and easy to replace.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Horizontally spaced anchors are not as versatile as vertically spaced ones but due to historical use in the US, they're "ingrained" in many as the better setup.
Let us know!