Deleted question on bolt chopping

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GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Sep 30, 2015 - 11:34am PT

Cool, john.... Good for you... Maybe spending a day out exercising will chill you out. Your silly bolt war looks so f*#king trivial coming from Cali and this tempest in a teapot sh#t is hilarious.

Dommelheimer

Trad climber

Anchorage

Sep 30, 2015 - 11:37am PT

John, you don't know who I am. You're clearly an inflammatory, unstable person, lie all you want, lie about what your motive here are, lie about your relationship with the climbing community in Alaska, lie about who you know, lie about where and what you can climb. How about you show Roger Pollard a little respect?

canyoncat

Social climber

SoCal

Sep 30, 2015 - 11:45am PT

Can't you kids just have a dust up in the parking lot like real hard men?

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Sep 30, 2015 - 11:46am PT

Kelseys a big dude I wouldn't recommend that (maybe if all 3?)

Bent knee

Ice climber

Sep 30, 2015 - 11:48am PT

Sorry Kelsey these were poorly installed, both hangers loose, and one stud was not properly seated. No amount of human force on that 20 ft bouldering rarely top roped wall could have created the force necessary to do what you hypothesize in such a short time. Anyways, it's a moot point the hangers have been long removed.

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:54am PT

Is this not you? If it's not I apologize

Seems like it to me? Why would you post that if it's a lie? Do you not want us to know? Why not?

Dommelheimer

Trad climber

Anchorage

Sep 30, 2015 - 11:58am PT

We used ASCA bolts to replaced hundreds of bolts throughout Alaska, I've placed ASCA bolts and I have a couple more most recently the anchor on Zulu wall. You're welcome, that anchor was dangerous.

jstan

climber

Sep 30, 2015 - 11:59am PT

Probably the first step one takes toward improving their climbing is to admit that a line is beyond one's present ability. Bolting a natural feature is a way of escaping that essential admission.

All of the animus created by bolting degrades our ability to enjoy climbing's sense of freedom. We already have tons of routes.

Isn't bolting a net loss to us all?

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 12:04pm PT

Dommelheimer

Trad climber
Anchorage

Sep 30, 2015 - 11:37am PT
"John, you don't know who I am. You're clearly an inflammatory, unstable person, lie all you want, lie about what your motive here are, lie about your relationship with the climbing community in Alaska, lie about who you know, lie about where and what you can climb. How about you show Roger Pollard a little respect?"

Ok kid you just lied about receiving ASCA bolts and I proved it...

Who have I lied about knowing?
What have I lied about climbing?
Remember to provide some "proof" like I have done to "prove" that you are lying...

jstan

climber

Sep 30, 2015 - 12:07pm PT

See?

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 12:11pm PT

Oh and Lang you aren't fooling anyone by deleting your post... Like the one you erased a few minutes ago about how you have never received and ASCA bolts...

Anyone know if it's possible to recover he post he erased here and on Mt Project? There have been several.... The tactic is simply... He post something to solicit an answer the goes back and erase his post.

Dommelheimer

Trad climber

Anchorage

Sep 30, 2015 - 12:21pm PT

for all of your ethical platitudes John, you're ignoring the fact that Roger Pollard told you that this wasn't a retrobolt, and that frankly he thinks the Lemming Ranch needs a bolt. You're right I've used ASCA bolts, you're welcome for making the climbing in this state safer, Whats wrong with ASCA bolts? What's wrong with guys like me actually giving a sh#t about the climbs here, I don't want to lower or fall on dangerous bolts, I don't want others to, how about leaving ASCA out of this, since it has nothing to do with this route or discussion. If you are worried about who is getting ASCA bolts, stop. no one using ASCA hardware is using them for retrobolts, or it would seem retrobolting How about you get the next order and go replace bolts. Admit that you're not angry about a bolt on a new line you'll never climb, but simply dislike Kelsey. Until you are giving back to the community in Hatcher, stop talking. please.

Lurkingtard

climber

Sep 30, 2015 - 12:24pm PT

Lol what a tool.

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 12:32pm PT

Ok so you failed to answer either question?

Who claimed I've lied about who I know and what/where I've climbed so again...

Who have I lied about knowing?

With who and where have I lied about climbing?

And....

Why did you just lie about receiving ASCA bolts? Remember I just provided "proof" you were lying and then you admitted to it... Why?

I asked you repeatedly to back up your accusations that I'm lying several time but every time you have been unable to do so...

Lurkingtard

climber

Sep 30, 2015 - 12:43pm PT

Seriously, dude. F*#king call him or go to his house. Why are you posting this here?

No one cares.

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 12:58pm PT

Oh and Lang Dommele keep in mind the only time I ever mentioned you here was when I asked if you had received any ASCA bolts. That was it...

Your immediate response was to lie about it. Why?

Then you chose to tell some more lies about me...but of course you can't back up any of it.

Greg - If the ASCA is doing such a great "service" here why do those representing them in AK feel the need to lie about it? If all that's happening is bolts getting replaced why is there a need to cover it up? The only reason to lie about it is to cover something up!

I don't mean it as an inflammatory question. I really would appreciate an honest answer.

A few more quick questions...

What do you guys think about all the recently added retro bolts on Sunshine Ridge? I mean the new retro bolts that some guy named Chris Williams has taken credit for by claiming it's a "new" route, which it isn't, on the MP guide?

Greg Barnes

climber

Sep 30, 2015 - 01:24pm PT

John, I will repeat what I said to you years ago in private emails: We are always open to criticism and specific reports of ASCA bolts used for retrobolting. I repeatedly asked you to provide specific details, and you did not. Honestly, you came across as angry and vindictive.

As far as I can tell, the FA of the route you are posting about has chimed in to say that the new route - not done with ASCA hardware anyway - is not a retrobolt. That's pretty much end of story (and it doesn't matter that the FA would like the actual route he did to have a bolt or two added). If you climbed sections of the newly bolted route without bolts in the past, but did not identify it clearly in guidebooks, it's pretty unreasonable to get mad if someone bolts a new route involving sections you happened to climb years ago but not tell anyone about, particularly if you were climbing an established route via an unusual start.

On a more general note -

I think it's really important for climbers who want to preserve dangerous routes to mentor and communicate with the newer generation of climbers. One of the main reasons I got into replacing more obscure routes was to preserve the route - if newer climbers see that the climbing community cares enough to replace the bolts on old dangerous routes, they're much less likely to add bolts to the same routes (even had one FA guy ask "why the h___ did you replace that route? No one ever does it." - about a 5.10d R/X he'd established!).

If we don't do a good job mentoring newer climbers about the mental challenges that runout routes provide, then wholesale retrobolting of our favorite runout routes is only a matter of time. I remember one hardcore partner - while we were replacing a 5.10 X route and he was leading it ground-up with a bolt replacement kit, clipping 1/4" and just replacing one bolt at each anchor on lead! - asking "How many years before this route gets retrobolted?" He took the long view and didn't ask "if" but "when". Sad…but unless we do better about taking the gym generation(s) under our wing, maybe he's right (I hope not!).

We have to teach newer climbers to appreciate the mental challenge of doing dangerous routes. If we come across as vindictive, angry, blustery - this sort of attitude is embarrassing, and it makes it harder to convince newer climbers that runout routes are worth preserving. Otherwise, sooner or later, we're headed for what some French climbers call "the democratization of climbing" - namely retrobolting everything (including cracks)...

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 01:48pm PT

The "domecratratization of climbing" is under way here... Thanks for encouraging it

"We have to teach newer climbers the mental challenge of doing dangerous routes". I couldn't agree more. That's what Lemming Ranch was before the retro.

I see you failed to answer the question as to why is there a need to lie about receiving ASCA hardware? As I've asked before... Why lie about it unless there is something to hide? I think Lang should answer that one...

Further more permission from the FA party means just that. Permission from the party not permission from an individual of that party.... Like I said before I contacted the other half of the FA. The half that's still here and is pretty easy to find. He was unaware of the new retro job and good luck trying to convince him Kelsey's bolts are on a new and independent line... They're not.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, has the ASCA's policy changed to supplying know retro bolters with bolts as long as they only retro bolt with their stuff?

Greg - One last question, for now...have you made a trip up here since the ASCA has started supplying bolts to guys here? I have absolutely no doubt it would be a severe disappointment for you to see it with your own eyes....