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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 11, 2006 - 02:12am PT
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jesus mick, why don't you just blow her?
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MarkHG
Trad climber
UK
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:47am PT
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This is a game that's played in the UK in particular, I believe. Virtually all cutting edge headpointed first ascents are graded for an on-sight ascent (so that the average punter that might come along and decide to have a go knows what he's in for?, so they don't find themselves on an E11 instead of the E9 they thought they were on! ;) ).
So with due respect to Dave for a very impressive achievement to say it's the it's the 'hardest trad route in the world' is a not strictly accurate as it has not been climbed at that grade.
Why aren't these routes graded for the style in which they were ascended?
Later if someone does climb them on-sight, pre-placing gear without top rope practice then they can give the route an on-sight grade. Then we can amuse ourselves with a good discussion about wether it's the hardest trad route in the world.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 11, 2006 - 04:25am PT
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The headpointing thing is a bit like when sport climbing hit the scene; no one bothered with a way to distinquish the style/ethic the route went up with. It would have been nice to know someone dogged their way up a route with 5.Ns and now it would be good to know if it were headpointed with 5.NNh or some other system - anything so you can distinquish the style/ethic as 5.n only tells you so much these days...
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rodney trotter
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:26am PT
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Bachar:
"If it ain't ground up and onsight, it ain't trad."
Not often you hear an american coming out with such narrow minded bullsh#t...
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rodney trotter
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 07:29am PT
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"""What is safer? Splitter crack or bolted "sport" route? Well I can place gear ever f*#king foot if I wanted to in a crack. Bolts are like 5 feet apart or more most the time. So what is sport climbing again?"""
Jesus christ. You just ended the debate with that mind blowingly idiotic statement.
Macleod is probably the best all rounder in the world, trad, winter, sport, boulder.
You just sound like a clown.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 11, 2006 - 08:40am PT
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Hey Rodney, kindly go fvck yourself, there's a good lad.
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tonyw
Trad climber
Edinburgh
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Apr 11, 2006 - 10:42am PT
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So who's going to be the first American climber to come and have a go? Any volunteers?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 10:46am PT
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I'll volunteer, I can climb anything.
Gimme the rope man, I'll have a go.
Then you're up next after me dude, as you watch me flail hopelessly above.
Hahaha ........ you buying my round trip ticket too?
Personally I don't give a schit if it's the hardest route in the world or the easiest.
There are much harder and more important things to accomplish in this life than some stupid rock climb.
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
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Ah, all the euro trash coming out of the woods because the question was raised regarding the term trad applied to a local testpiece. You think anybody here is going to waste their time going over there to claim an American ascent of a route on a boulder? There are way too many routes around here on bigger boulders, established ground-up, to be wasting our time on (maybe not right at this moment because of all the weather). Yes, Werner, it's just climbing.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
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Ah, those brits are just mad cause we kicked their @$$es in two wars, then had to bail em out of two more. HEHE!
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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Original inquiry, "narrow minded" as it "may" be - Was the route rehearsed?
Just curious folks - didn't realize some people would get so worked up about a simple question. The Czechs and East Germans would probably ask the same question themselves. If a route is rehearsed then the term "traditional" probably shouldn't be applied to the ascent.
Peace, jb
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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Headpoint = muscle memory circus trick
JB is right... you Brits are just wanking.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
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the hardest route is T.F.H.F.Y.G Too Fockin Hard For You Gumby
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Paz
Trad climber
Bristol
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Apr 11, 2006 - 01:56pm PT
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Just a few points I think have been lost in translation and to give you guys the numbers. In Britain headpointing is seen as primarily a way to climb without bolts. Another way to bring the rock down to your level, but obviously a much less permanently destructive one. It's not perfect and grit is seeing a resurgence in groundup tactics, which due to the problems of wear from repeated landings isn't perfect either.
The trad grade in Britain is for onsights, theoretically so where these have not been yet achieved. For routes with tricks or exceptional levels of cunning with comparitively easy climbing for the grade, therefore bold `X' rated routes a new system was proposed to grade headpoints more modestly, but as you guys would say, it was a drag.
However for trad climbs with a comparitively medium standard of climbing for the grade the step up between english E grades is around two french sport or american YDS letter grades.
So although we haven't had the balls to put up a `truly bold' E11 yet, even using our cheating headpoint tactics it took a Scot
to beat us all with a monumentally harder one as I'll explain.
Ignoring boulder problems, so as far as I'm aware in America, in the Valley, at Indian Creek and in Colorado (and also in Canada, Sweden, Italy and Australia as well as here in England) the hardest climbs on gear are all 8b+ or 5.14a, according to http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=325.
Other routes as hard have been suggested, but when climbers such as England's John dunne don't repeat their peer's routes their grades only describe the relative difficulty of his own first ascents.
Were these onsight ground up frigged, or climbed cleanly after some other form of practise? Personally I don't mind frigging, I like the idea of a trip up The Nose to try the moves now you've cleaned the placement's and equipped the route properly with some fixed gear. Even this route is thought to be 5.14a.
Rhapsody is 5.14b/c R, and the only reason it isn't 5.14b/c X is that Dave was lucky enough to survive an inverted fall.
If anyone is aware of the ethical difference between this ascent and a traditional onsight we brits are. However the pure physical difficulty of the climbing means this is a leap forward in traditional standards of one, probably even two, letter grades.
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jack splat
climber
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:25pm PT
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Mick Ryan posts these news flashes from the outside world here - and it has the same effect as a troll.
A guy does an unargueably rad route - 14c with big fall potential - and a bunch of you immediatly start bitching about whether it's trad or not.
It's not TRAD, it's not TRAD..it doesn't count!!! He had an invisible rope!!!
Dudes! Could you be more pathetic? It's sad! You had your time in the sun. People praised you, they still do....
Climbing has changed - it will continue to change - try clapping when someone achieves something in climbing - send out good energy and it will come back to you.
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Choppo
Mountain climber
Norwood, Colorado
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:26pm PT
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Thanks Paz for helping set things straight. I've been climbing for a long time and as far as I can tell everything Dave MacLeod supposedly did has been practiced for many decades and his ascent is surely traditional in the real sense of the term. Correct me if I'm wrong, but another long standing tradition in the climbing world has been for egotistical, shortsighted climbers to react with hypocritical trash talk when climbers like Dave push the standards.
Instead of all this crap, we should be praising Dave's ascent for what is, a step forward in action.
I've been to Glasgow twice now and looked at that route in awe. Great job, Dave.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:30pm PT
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Through all the verbiage, at some point it does sound like it was "rehearsed" (which ain't necessarily evil in itself, but still not a true on-sight, i.e. trad ascent). But with all the noise about the route's significance, it does seem odd that no one mentions how many times he top-roped it first, at least not in print. So, how many times did he TR it before the final lead?
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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"Mick Ryan posts these news flashes from the outside world here - and it has the same effect as a troll. "
And you're pointing this out like it's mere coincidence? Do you think Mick had no idea this news flash would stir some controversy? Tell 'em, Mick. Besides, the title of the post is a question, not a statement.
Discussing style and ethics is a tradition in climbing. If there's going to be spraying about accomplishments, it's likely there's gonna be some scrutinizing about the style. Seems fair to me.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 11, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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I think you are giving that wanker Mick Ryan too much credit. He has no idea what he is doing. He'll be flooding OUR forum with Brits any minute now... wait, they are already here!!! Hide the HP!
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