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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Apr 10, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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I was involved in a lot of first ascents in the 70's and 80's and while the routes were yoyo'd to put the gear in, whoever finished the route had just climbed it from the ground up. However, some of the route was probably done on toprope because we didn't always pull the rope for the next person. I don't remember people getting all agro about pulling the rope until routes started getting steeper and you were better off leading anyway. There were lots of routes that were done in a community style. I wouldn't even want to try to count how many people were involved in some routes (Safety in Numbers and Simple Simon at JT are 2 that especially come to mind).
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 10, 2006 - 07:53pm PT
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Magic Line is a pinkpoint - never been truly led. So essentially an invisible top rope. Come on Beth - you can do it!
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jack splat
climber
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:03pm PT
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Aldude wrote:
"So essentially an invisible top rope"
What is an invisable top-rope? Is it like a make-believe bolt? Or more like an imaginary harness?
Do you have to be a stoner to detect the imaginary top-rope? Did Ron know he was using an invisible top-rope?
When you go to climb it will it be an imaginary ascent? If you are in a position to call Ron's lead a non-lead are you going to do it in a better style? (even if it's only in your imagination?)
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:22pm PT
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Didn't say I could or would - just that he didn't.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:28pm PT
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Invisible top rope = protection placed from the top for future pseudo lead activity.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:45pm PT
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headpointing is an intersting spin-off of climbing as i learned it, but if a lot of climbers i know had allowed themselves to "headpoint" in the late 70's and through the '80's they'd be fully sponsored american legends with half-a-hundred climbing magazine covers to their credit.
getting a hard, dicey, poorly protected climb wired on TR and then doing a single lead burn on it is one of "the games climbers play". but it's not -- and i hate this term -- "trad" climbing, and it's not even in the same ballpark as an on-sight lead with no beta. and it's especially not even in the same NEBULA as an on-sight solo.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:50pm PT
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"Going home in one piece always matters, style is secondary."
Out of 100 possible style points, going home in one piece nets you 90, regardless of what else happens.
Brutus
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2006 - 09:53pm PT
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So after reading all the rants above, what is one to do?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:04pm PT
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I'm thinking of going to find Osama bin Laden on-sight solo and collect that reward money.
But I was also thinking of trying to on-sight swim to Hawaii with none of those weeny back-up boats around....can't decide yet.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:37pm PT
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All of this anecdotal evidence about how it REALLY was 'back in the day' simply poisons our ability to hold current style up to a revisionist and idyllic history. It's all bullocks.
Look, before sport-o's ruined everything all first ascents were done ground up placing all the gear and drilling everything from stances...period. Just because your personal ascents didn't hold up to this style doesn't mean you have to ruin it for the rest of us.
C'mon Aldude back me up here.
-Spinmaster
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:42pm PT
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All this belly aching is pretty lame, its a gear protected 14c with really big fall potential. Call it what you want.
By the way Micks original post gives the impression that Cubby headpointed the first ascent which is not the case. It was a good old fashioned ground up siege, with no prior top roping, and done in really unfavourable hot conditions, a rare occurrence in Scotland. Not bad for 1983.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:44pm PT
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riiiight. but what has this guy done at rubidoux, huh?
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Light&Fast!!!
climber
calgary
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
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What is safer? Splitter crack or bolted "sport" route? Well I can place gear ever f*#king foot if I wanted to in a crack. Bolts are like 5 feet apart or more most the time. So what is sport climbing again?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Apr 10, 2006 - 10:49pm PT
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I'm sure he wasn't the least bit interested in your So Cal chosspiles, he had bigger fish to fry.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 10, 2006 - 11:32pm PT
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yeah, i've heard that excuse before. hardmen gunning for sponsorships really, really hate getting shut down on old e.b. routes.
which bring up a seperate related point: what's with the media these days?? a certain female media darling, whose name shall go unmentioned, repeated cosmic debris a year or two ago and it was "STOP THE PRESSES!!! COSMIC DEBIS REPEATED IN A THREE DAY SEIGE, 24 YEARS AFTER BILL PRICE's F.A.!!!!"
we read that and went, wtf???
ok, in the intervening years the route had been done faster quite a few times, with no mention in the climbing media whatsoever.
anythime i hear.."the hardest new [fill in the blank] climb in the world!! my bullshit detector starts blaring.
i just don't buy hype anymore. not at the crags, not in magazines, and sure as shite not on the inTARDweb.
whatever, nevermind...
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2006 - 11:36pm PT
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Can you guys on the West coast keep the noise down a bit as us East coasters are trying to get to bed and all those Brits are fast asleep clutching their invisible top ropes.
Especially you BVB, THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT AT THE TOP OF YOUR VOICE.
Mick
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:03am PT
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Author:
Karl Baba
Trad climber
From: Yosemite, Ca
Maybe we should have a SPRAD category for when it's not exactly perfect trad but gear is placed and longer falls risked.
Is Magic Line a SPRAD route? I'd like to seem somebody do a second ascent before we assume it's not a sandbag at 14b.
Peace
karl ""
This made my day. I luv yew Karl, LOL.
Sprad climbing.
Marvelous!
You gotta define it properly now. This is history in the making.
And I am one of those who thinks that getting back to a no hands rest after a fall and then reclimbing everything from there is OK. In fact, it might be a lot harder than lowering and resting on the ground for a bit. Of course, if you can't lower to a no hands rest, then you gotta go all the way down. Overhanging climbs would tend to take care of themselves, haha.
I don't really have a problem with headpointing either, as long as you don't claim an onsight, or grade by the headpointed/redpointed method as opposed to the onsight method.
I do draw the line at pink pointing.
Sure, onsighting an FA is the coolest of cool, can't argue that.
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:13am PT
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Good for the bro who sent it. Until you or I go do it in better style, it's just a interweb wankfest to slag on the dude.
Can YOU pull the moves? I can't. Beyond that, it's a bunch of old f*ckers pissing their depends and reminscing about when .12+ was top of the heap and they ruled the roost. As I recall, you say lame has beens were all atwitter when the Nose went in a day. Why did it matter...after all, they'd all been up it before not like it was ground up onsight or even free. Selective ethics to make your old ass feel better is lame...and I'm an old ass saying it.
Grow up old dads.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:21am PT
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Ha, Ha.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2006 - 12:54am PT
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"You gotta define it properly now. This is history in the making."
I think "Sprad" covers the whole grey area between pure sport and pristine trad. You pronounce it differently depending on how much respect you wish to give to the ascent.
For instance, this guys send was wicked hard and he took some really long falls working on it. Thats. spRAD" with the emphasis on the "Rad"
If somebody adds fixed pins, preprotects, hangdogs, maybe had a bit of tension at the crux and then reports it like a Bush administration lacky spinning the event, then its
"SSSPPPrad" with saliva spraying from the lips when the "P" sound is sputted.
Then you bring in the adjectives
Spradutory
Spradilarious
Spradific
Nouns:
Spradabee
Spadasaurus
LycraSprad
not to mention
Spradmilation
Spradcore
and
SpradDad
I'm sure it's endless just like the grey area is endless.
Peace
Karl
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