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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 30, 2014 - 10:45am PT
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Ron, that is one of the NASTIEST photos I've seen in a while--thanks not! :)
Re. vid: I see what you mean, but I'm not sure reversing the hold on the solid gate or the wire would make much difference in the outcome.
Snubbing makes some sense even on long slings. One could start with longer slings pre-clipped and snubbed. One has to keep an eye on things when clipping in, but that's always been the case. With snubbing, it seems like the turning of the biner in a bounce to come unclipped as in that other vid would be pretty unlikely.
I guess we need to keep in mind, too, that the unfortunate series of events of the fellow in the OP are extraordinarily unlikely. He drew the doomsday card for gear that day. Hope he regains his old self!
BAd
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 30, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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Of note: The Goren Kropp accident investigation was conducted by Mike Gauthier, who was the head SAR and Climbing Ranger guy on Rainier at the time.
He is now the Chief of Staff for the Superintendent of Yosemite.
I had a small, peripheral role in that investigation, just enough to observe Mike's professionalism.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:30am PT
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Since the biners were still on his rope, I suspect that the narrow slings had twisted in a way that obscured the fact that the slings were never really in the biners in the first place. I've certainly had that happen when I extended slings incorrectly, but with skinny slings, it mightn't be so obvious. Another possibility is that the less dynamic skinny slings create more shock and therefore more gate flutter than a nylon sling. Once again, the old-timers might have been correct on this one.
TE
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:40am PT
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in 30 plus years of climbing, i never have had biners open like the wire gates do and hang up on shiat.
if it ain't broke don't fix it.
3#'s more for std gate ovals never bothered me.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:52am PT
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Eons ago, when screamers were introduced, the violent staccato vibrations of the screamer popping resulted in several spontaneous cases of ropes popping out of the beaners' basket. It became pro forma SOP to use those things with a locker.
Yes, BVB, and after hearing of this horrible accident, I pondered whether that this was perhaps the problem.
But 2 problems with any kind of gate flutter/gate opening theory:
1. Modern Screamers have the stitching inline, lengthways and not as separate bar tacks, greatly reducing the vibration.
2. In such cases, the ROPE comes unclipped. In Crill's case, the biners unclipped themselves from the slings. Not what one would expect. Yet this happened twice.
So, sadly, I think it more likely that scenario #4 was likely, with a sling that was unfurled from being doubled/quadrupled and tragically twisted so as to not be properly attached to the biner. Tragic operator error.
I do recall from a decade ago a friend who had something similar happen when a long sling, untangled from being quadrupled, ended up attached by just a rubber band. I recall something like he leaned back, fell 15 feet onto the only ledge for 100 feet, was basically unhurt but kinda horrified.
Video of how the slings an be wrongly set up here:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68190
ps, the biners involved were apparently Neutrinos.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:55am PT
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Modern locking 'biners are almost as light as the aluminum ovals I used 45 years ago. I have to concur with Werner's observation. We always face many weaknesses in the belay chain, but at least we know that a locker's gate won't likely open accidentally.
John
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Port
Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:59am PT
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So, sadly, I think it more likely that scenario #4 was likely, with a sling that was unfurled from being doubled/quadrupled and tragically twisted so as to not be properly attached to the biner. Tragic operator error.
I might have missed it, but was the sling fully extented? It must not have been. Seems that by fully extending the draw, you'll immediated know if it becomes detached....
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 30, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
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So, sadly, I think it more likely that scenario #4 was likely, with a sling that was unfurled from being doubled/quadrupled and tragically twisted so as to not be properly attached to the biner. Tragic operator error.
I might have missed it, but was the sling fully extented? It must not have been. Seems that by fully extending the draw, you'll immediated know if it becomes detached....
Yes, it should be obvious, shouldn't it? The trouble is, all possible scenarios seem unlikely.
Either way, the video I linked to is just a couple minutes long, sobering and well worth the time to watch.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Oct 30, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
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Valuable lesson about using lockers on long run-outs. Thanks!
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Gimp
Trad climber
Missoula, MT & "Pourland", OR
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Oct 30, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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Ron,
I think the most important take for me was how much the gates in both types of carabiner move.
This motion is probably much more common than I certainly appreciated.
Probably amazing more ropes don't bounce out.
Question is does rope diameter matter and are thin lines more susceptable or safer (since trend is thinner and thinner lead lines)?
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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Oct 30, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
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The gate flutter possibility would be a stronger argument if the biners had actually broken.
Tension is required to create the flutter, so do you really think a rope under tension will "bounce out" when the gate is open? Twice?
Accidentally looping the slings in a way that the biner isn't actually clipped seems more likely.
But obviously lockers cant hurt.
Wishing for complete and speedy recovery for Wayne.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 30, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
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Did anyone find the two biners? Where they still attached to the rope or are they missing? The R&I articles states biners breaking as a possible cause. That leads me to believe that the biners where never recovered. Unless I'm reading that article wrong. Does anyone know if they where recovered or not?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 30, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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Did anyone find the two biners? Where they still attached to the rope or are they missing? The R&I articles states biners breaking as a possible cause. That leads me to believe that the biners where never recovered. Unless I'm reading that article wrong. Does anyone know if they where recovered or not?
The two biners were found.
The two biners were BD Neutrinos.
The two biners stayed attached to the rope. The biners unclipped themselves from the slings they were attached to.
The biners were found unbroken, still attached to the rope, laying on the ground.
What is so very unusual about this accident is that with every scenario involving gate flutter or rope vibration it's the rope that comes unclipped. In this case the rope stayed put and the sling came unclipped. Twice.
Some more details here:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/climber-falls-in-eldorado-canyon/109332940__6
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BrandonAdams
Big Wall climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
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It is interesting to hear of how often this sort of accident occurs.
It actually happened to me in the spring while starting the route lunar eclipse on the east side of el cap.
On the first pitch, 40 feet up, I stood on a fixed copperhead with two nuts as protection roughly 4 and 8 feet below me.
The copperhead blew, the top nut failed at the clip in point, and the rope end carabiner of the alpine draw attached to the bottom nut "unclipped itself."
I was very lucky and, though I was escorted away by helicopter, I was relatively minorly injured from having taken a fort foot fall.
The carabinier that unclipped was a bd hotwire wiregate at the end of a single length dyneema sling... Go figure.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
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It occurs to me there was a time when you just climbed, clipped a piece with an Eiger oval or a Chouinard 'beaner of any kind, used a sewn or tied sling if necessary, then kept going. You never heard about these kinds of problems. Far too much gear is being invented and marketed these days, to solve problems that don't exist to people with sketchy or minimalist experience with routes protected entirely with gear. The invention of Friends, and later TCU's, were total game-changers for free-climbing. Most everything since? I've looked at those gadgets and said "Yeah. No."
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 31, 2014 - 07:23am PT
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Hey BrandonAdams, sorry about your accident. In your case, did the "rope-end carabiner" unclip itself from the rope or from the dyneema sling?
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 31, 2014 - 07:42am PT
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crunch
Thanks for the clarification. Having the top pieces pull could have put another force on the rope before they pulled to make the rope rebound slightly upwards. That would put some weird stresses on the system and make it more likely to have the biners loaded more sideways then down. However it actually happened it is almost unbelievable it happened to two pieces in a row.
Like others here I've taken many falls on alpine draws. Both nylon and dynema slings. I personally went back to nylon just because they are way more durable.
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BrandonAdams
Big Wall climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Oct 31, 2014 - 08:10am PT
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The carabiner unclipped from the sling. Perhaps there is some merit in retiring dyneema slings and sticking with fatty nylon for extendable draws.
I also now carry a draw equipped with two lockers for those crucial clips.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 31, 2014 - 08:36am PT
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The extended slings becoming undone theory might be the correct one. I always do a double check when extending slings from trad quickdraws. I've had too many that screwed up.
Valuable lesson about using lockers on long run-outs. Thanks!
Spider, a lot of my early climbing was with Randy K., and he always used a few lockers when he led. He got me into the habit early on. Always makes me feel better, especially on those runouts at Christmas Tree Pass.
BTW, does this seem overly complicated?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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