Discussion Topic |
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Rolfr
Social climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 29, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
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http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/the-unthinkable
A very bizzare accident, condolences to the climber and hoping for the best outcome.
Has anyone else ever have a similiar system failure? I would be very interested in feedback, especially the comment on gate flutter with wire gate biners. Please save the BS comments for another time.
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 29, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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I'd always though that the longer (60cm?) over the shoulder slings were the cure for the possibility that your biner would unclip in a fall. That Wayne had 2 do that to him, with 5 pieces failing before he hit, is disturbing. I may mean nothing, but what brand were the biners that unclipped? Wish the man all the best in the recovery process.
...there but for the grace of God go you and I....
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 29, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
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Eons ago, when screamers were introduced, the violent staccato vibrations of the screamer popping resulted in several spontaneous cases of ropes popping out of the beaners' basket. It became pro forma SOP to use those things with a locker.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Oct 29, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
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what a horrible story.
never heard of anything like this. given that of the five pieces that failed, the two that seem from the article to have been the critical ones had carabiners unclip, it makes me suspect that it may have been something that was introduced into the system ala point number four in the r+i article. ie. i wonder if he inadvertantly and repeatedly unfurled a long sling and somehow left it appearing to be clipped, while in actuality it was not.
barring something of this nature this would appear to be some of the worst luck possible. this is so crazy, i'd even be checking to make sure that someone in a factory hadn't built a half static, half dynamic rope or something.
absolutely bizarre, and heartbreaking.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 29, 2014 - 08:12pm PT
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I was an early adopter of the dental floss slings when they first came out and went back to 9/16" and 1" nylon, either tied or sewn.
The tendency for them to turn themselves into spaghetti at the most inopportune moments and a few scarey incidents where the carabiner hung up on them cross loaded played a part in the decision, but it was mostly driven by the short service life combined with the extra expense.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 29, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
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Yes like BVB says ....
We use locking biners for dangerous leads where the potential for gate flutter can appear.
My rack used to have mostly locking biners as free biners on those long run-outs.
I belayed Steve Schneider on Moongerms when he almost died because of the same type of scenario.
RP cable broke in half and the next piece the biner flew off the piece out into space.
He stopped 3 feet above the deck head first from 50 feet up there.
If he would have hit the ground he would have been dead .....
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Nevada City
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Oct 29, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
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In a way, I almost don't want to have read stories like this. Guess its good to learn, but scary shit!
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Oct 29, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
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^^^^
yah, in some ways. but having three pieces pull and two more carabiners inexplicably come unclipped, compared to one piece pulling and a carabiner breaking puts this tragedy on another unfortunate level [to me] even if both events had similarly horrible outcomes.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 29, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
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Scary. Like that DNB accident where the whole belay blew, it sure sounds like something that could happen to anyone "doing everything right." It's not at all obvious how the biners unclipped, makes me wish someone would do high speed photography of a bunch of random direction whips on long slings to see if the likely unclipping mechanism would be seen (using a dummy weight of course).
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 30, 2014 - 12:56am PT
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hey there say, ... i had just learned of this from a climber's facebook page...
my prayers for him to get well, and for the finances... :(
and prayers for his family, at this hard hard sad time... :(
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 30, 2014 - 02:49am PT
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i accidently bumped the sling on a green camalot @ the crux and watched the biner slap the rock and neatly unclip. did the same thing once ice climbing.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 30, 2014 - 06:15am PT
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I am thinking wire gates are the problem here. I have been weeding them out of my rack since I bought them.
I sent a DMM biner back to Yates in 1986 after a screamer fall on a bolt chopped groves in it. Nothing broke, just ruined the biner.
I just like hearing gear "became unclipped". That is a thing of nightmares.
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Port
Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
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Oct 30, 2014 - 09:03am PT
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So hard to understand this accident. But based on the analysis from Hank and R&I, I'm changing my rack. Adding 1 or 2 runners with locking carabiners for crucial placements seems wise. With the weight being minimal with modern lockers it's worth it.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Oct 30, 2014 - 09:30am PT
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I am thinking wire gates are the problem here
Can you explain why?
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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 30, 2014 - 10:25am PT
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@Rick D and others:
Based on the video clip, wire gates seem to offer a minor degree of protection over conventional gates--and I do mean minor. They don't open as widely and they close more quickly than conventional gates in a bouncing/gate flutter event.
Is there any evidence that these thin sewn slings are more dangerous than wider ones? I love how they hang, and they're great for synching some knobs and work great on some threads.
BAd
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Oct 30, 2014 - 10:29am PT
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GIMP, that vid was obviously made by wire gate manufacturers as you notice how the solid gate biner was held at the gate opening end while the wire biner was held at the opposite end.. Which ensures more gate flutter for the solid gated biner, or course.
Perhaps the best way to reduce biner failure is to use rubber snubbers to attach the biner to draws or slings.
Ron, what you are suggesting is a really bad idea.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=20
Best wishes to the climber. I hope he makes a full recovery.
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Rolfr
Social climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2014 - 10:42am PT
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Hendo, thanks for that video.
In the video the biner attached to the sling, has the open gate end attached to the sling end, not the rope end. If the biner was turned to have the gate at the bottom were the rope is attached it would probably reduce the likelihood of it detaching. Basic rock-craft.
Sport climbing has made me complacent, I used to always have slings with lockers for those worrisome placements , I think it's time to start again.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 30, 2014 - 10:45am PT
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Ron, that is one of the NASTIEST photos I've seen in a while--thanks not! :)
Re. vid: I see what you mean, but I'm not sure reversing the hold on the solid gate or the wire would make much difference in the outcome.
Snubbing makes some sense even on long slings. One could start with longer slings pre-clipped and snubbed. One has to keep an eye on things when clipping in, but that's always been the case. With snubbing, it seems like the turning of the biner in a bounce to come unclipped as in that other vid would be pretty unlikely.
I guess we need to keep in mind, too, that the unfortunate series of events of the fellow in the OP are extraordinarily unlikely. He drew the doomsday card for gear that day. Hope he regains his old self!
BAd
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 30, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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Of note: The Goren Kropp accident investigation was conducted by Mike Gauthier, who was the head SAR and Climbing Ranger guy on Rainier at the time.
He is now the Chief of Staff for the Superintendent of Yosemite.
I had a small, peripheral role in that investigation, just enough to observe Mike's professionalism.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:30am PT
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Since the biners were still on his rope, I suspect that the narrow slings had twisted in a way that obscured the fact that the slings were never really in the biners in the first place. I've certainly had that happen when I extended slings incorrectly, but with skinny slings, it mightn't be so obvious. Another possibility is that the less dynamic skinny slings create more shock and therefore more gate flutter than a nylon sling. Once again, the old-timers might have been correct on this one.
TE
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:40am PT
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in 30 plus years of climbing, i never have had biners open like the wire gates do and hang up on shiat.
if it ain't broke don't fix it.
3#'s more for std gate ovals never bothered me.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:52am PT
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Eons ago, when screamers were introduced, the violent staccato vibrations of the screamer popping resulted in several spontaneous cases of ropes popping out of the beaners' basket. It became pro forma SOP to use those things with a locker.
Yes, BVB, and after hearing of this horrible accident, I pondered whether that this was perhaps the problem.
But 2 problems with any kind of gate flutter/gate opening theory:
1. Modern Screamers have the stitching inline, lengthways and not as separate bar tacks, greatly reducing the vibration.
2. In such cases, the ROPE comes unclipped. In Crill's case, the biners unclipped themselves from the slings. Not what one would expect. Yet this happened twice.
So, sadly, I think it more likely that scenario #4 was likely, with a sling that was unfurled from being doubled/quadrupled and tragically twisted so as to not be properly attached to the biner. Tragic operator error.
I do recall from a decade ago a friend who had something similar happen when a long sling, untangled from being quadrupled, ended up attached by just a rubber band. I recall something like he leaned back, fell 15 feet onto the only ledge for 100 feet, was basically unhurt but kinda horrified.
Video of how the slings an be wrongly set up here:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68190
ps, the biners involved were apparently Neutrinos.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:55am PT
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Modern locking 'biners are almost as light as the aluminum ovals I used 45 years ago. I have to concur with Werner's observation. We always face many weaknesses in the belay chain, but at least we know that a locker's gate won't likely open accidentally.
John
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Port
Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:59am PT
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So, sadly, I think it more likely that scenario #4 was likely, with a sling that was unfurled from being doubled/quadrupled and tragically twisted so as to not be properly attached to the biner. Tragic operator error.
I might have missed it, but was the sling fully extented? It must not have been. Seems that by fully extending the draw, you'll immediated know if it becomes detached....
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 30, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
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So, sadly, I think it more likely that scenario #4 was likely, with a sling that was unfurled from being doubled/quadrupled and tragically twisted so as to not be properly attached to the biner. Tragic operator error.
I might have missed it, but was the sling fully extented? It must not have been. Seems that by fully extending the draw, you'll immediated know if it becomes detached....
Yes, it should be obvious, shouldn't it? The trouble is, all possible scenarios seem unlikely.
Either way, the video I linked to is just a couple minutes long, sobering and well worth the time to watch.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Oct 30, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
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Valuable lesson about using lockers on long run-outs. Thanks!
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Gimp
Trad climber
Missoula, MT & "Pourland", OR
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Oct 30, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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Ron,
I think the most important take for me was how much the gates in both types of carabiner move.
This motion is probably much more common than I certainly appreciated.
Probably amazing more ropes don't bounce out.
Question is does rope diameter matter and are thin lines more susceptable or safer (since trend is thinner and thinner lead lines)?
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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Oct 30, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
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The gate flutter possibility would be a stronger argument if the biners had actually broken.
Tension is required to create the flutter, so do you really think a rope under tension will "bounce out" when the gate is open? Twice?
Accidentally looping the slings in a way that the biner isn't actually clipped seems more likely.
But obviously lockers cant hurt.
Wishing for complete and speedy recovery for Wayne.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 30, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
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Did anyone find the two biners? Where they still attached to the rope or are they missing? The R&I articles states biners breaking as a possible cause. That leads me to believe that the biners where never recovered. Unless I'm reading that article wrong. Does anyone know if they where recovered or not?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 30, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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Did anyone find the two biners? Where they still attached to the rope or are they missing? The R&I articles states biners breaking as a possible cause. That leads me to believe that the biners where never recovered. Unless I'm reading that article wrong. Does anyone know if they where recovered or not?
The two biners were found.
The two biners were BD Neutrinos.
The two biners stayed attached to the rope. The biners unclipped themselves from the slings they were attached to.
The biners were found unbroken, still attached to the rope, laying on the ground.
What is so very unusual about this accident is that with every scenario involving gate flutter or rope vibration it's the rope that comes unclipped. In this case the rope stayed put and the sling came unclipped. Twice.
Some more details here:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/climber-falls-in-eldorado-canyon/109332940__6
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BrandonAdams
Big Wall climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
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It is interesting to hear of how often this sort of accident occurs.
It actually happened to me in the spring while starting the route lunar eclipse on the east side of el cap.
On the first pitch, 40 feet up, I stood on a fixed copperhead with two nuts as protection roughly 4 and 8 feet below me.
The copperhead blew, the top nut failed at the clip in point, and the rope end carabiner of the alpine draw attached to the bottom nut "unclipped itself."
I was very lucky and, though I was escorted away by helicopter, I was relatively minorly injured from having taken a fort foot fall.
The carabinier that unclipped was a bd hotwire wiregate at the end of a single length dyneema sling... Go figure.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
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It occurs to me there was a time when you just climbed, clipped a piece with an Eiger oval or a Chouinard 'beaner of any kind, used a sewn or tied sling if necessary, then kept going. You never heard about these kinds of problems. Far too much gear is being invented and marketed these days, to solve problems that don't exist to people with sketchy or minimalist experience with routes protected entirely with gear. The invention of Friends, and later TCU's, were total game-changers for free-climbing. Most everything since? I've looked at those gadgets and said "Yeah. No."
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 31, 2014 - 07:23am PT
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Hey BrandonAdams, sorry about your accident. In your case, did the "rope-end carabiner" unclip itself from the rope or from the dyneema sling?
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 31, 2014 - 07:42am PT
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crunch
Thanks for the clarification. Having the top pieces pull could have put another force on the rope before they pulled to make the rope rebound slightly upwards. That would put some weird stresses on the system and make it more likely to have the biners loaded more sideways then down. However it actually happened it is almost unbelievable it happened to two pieces in a row.
Like others here I've taken many falls on alpine draws. Both nylon and dynema slings. I personally went back to nylon just because they are way more durable.
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BrandonAdams
Big Wall climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Oct 31, 2014 - 08:10am PT
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The carabiner unclipped from the sling. Perhaps there is some merit in retiring dyneema slings and sticking with fatty nylon for extendable draws.
I also now carry a draw equipped with two lockers for those crucial clips.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 31, 2014 - 08:36am PT
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The extended slings becoming undone theory might be the correct one. I always do a double check when extending slings from trad quickdraws. I've had too many that screwed up.
Valuable lesson about using lockers on long run-outs. Thanks!
Spider, a lot of my early climbing was with Randy K., and he always used a few lockers when he led. He got me into the habit early on. Always makes me feel better, especially on those runouts at Christmas Tree Pass.
BTW, does this seem overly complicated?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 31, 2014 - 09:34am PT
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I've carried a draw with a locker on each end as a std piece of my rack for a good while. Learned that from my subman apprenticeship with an ex YOSAR guy. Because sometimes (high first bolt, last piece before a runnout, etc) you absolutely cannot afford to have that piece unclip. 90% of the time I reach the anchor with it still racked and it goes into the anchor, but it has given me confidence/peace of mind many, many times.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 31, 2014 - 10:04am PT
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I've carried a draw with a locker on each end as a std piece of my rack for a good while. He he - I have a couple, a friend calls them my "granny draws." Although I have to admit I pretty much only bring them on new routes, they are a very nice confidence boost when you don't know where the next drilling stance will be.
As far as this accident, one thing I've done for years is to double up rope-end biners on key pieces particularly early in the pitch. Typically I place a cam (with it's biner), then clip a tripled sling to it, extend the sling, and double up the rope end biner. Originally it was just because it seemed dumb having a free biner hanging on the cam and I didn't want to bother taking the extra biner, but by now I do it pretty regularly. Of course since we don't know what happened, who knows maybe the cam-end biner on a long sling can pop off too (seems less likely).
When I don't have a granny draw, on key pieces I sometimes double up draws (of slightly different lengths on bolts since otherwise the biners tend to jam up in the hanger).
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WBraun
climber
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This topic shows that there are very subtle things that are not always obvious but show up after quite some time and thru experience.
In Gary's video example above after watching it I spotted a subtle n00b mistake of just clipping in without understanding the ergonomics of the how all the components interact under dynamic conditions which could cause a problem.
N00bs generally just clip in according to habits they've developed.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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I've always done my "granny" quickdraws your new way, Dingus. Maybe it's operator error but I still get that twist sometimes.
Smoking duck, I'm an eternal n00b, always trying to think about what's happening, and praying that my thinking is OK. It's a tough sport.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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That video demonstrates why Noobs have so many accidents. That video is a DISSERVICE to teaching people what to do!
Sh#t happens when you over-complicate what is very straight-forward. There is a lot of weird sh#t in that video.
That video should NEVER be shown to a new climber.
EDIT: The intent is good in the video, I understand that. Maybe it's just because I hate someone telling me 'the right way' to do something.
Everybody does things differently in such a dynamic environment. The focus should be on SAFETY and the video just glossed over that aspect.
Clipping in statically to the anchors while you do the rest of the work is key, especially while you untie and re-thread the rope. I never do the silly overhand to retain the rope, and I have never dropped the rope yet.
Maybe I'm just stupid.
When you untie w/o a backup overhand you hold on to that line like you're going to fall and make damn sure it gets threaded immediately.
Trying to make things so idiot-proof turns you into a weird drone. Just clean the f*#king anchor and don't drop the rope!
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WBraun
climber
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I didn't see anything weird.
She didn't do anything wrong.
She was just a habitual anchor engineering person ......
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Bad Climber
climber
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I think the vid is fine. My habit has been to clip in with a permanently attached sling in my harness that uses full-strength loops, the end threaded through my harness, locker on the other end. Once locked into the anchor, I pull up a loop and clip it in. Then I untie, thread, and retie and drop the loop. I think having a backup looped tied in is a reasonable precaution.
This overall thread, however, is making me re-think skinny slings. Does this kind of unclipping happen on 9/16th slings? These used to be my go-to's, and now I carry a coupled of tied ones to leave at rap anchors if bailing.
BAd
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sh#t happens when you over-complicate what is very straight-forward
Agreed, bluey. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, so try to keep it simple. Like the Duck says, she didn't do anything wrong, but it can be done simpler.
I always tie a quick overhand and clip to my harness when untying from the rope, takes a second and prevents embarrassment, or worse.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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more to the point: How did the rope break?
It seems a lot of you are taking actions based on a quite incomplete and inaccurate history of what happened?
The flutter frequency of wire gate binners is higher than binners of solid gates so less time they are open.
the most parsimonious scenario is the RP pulled, the slings were not looped through the biners and the rope was cut by the ? Rock?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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The rope did not break or get cut. It was intact.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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I think DMT's pictures explain a lot about what can happen. I've certainly seen the loop over the gate like that. I have also noticed that some people used a different racking technique to me, and when I use my regular extending method on such a sling, the result can be a totally loose biner. It's usually very obvious, just frustrating, but if I have any kind of loop on the biners after extending, I reclip cleanly or give that biner a huge pull to ensure the loops aren't hiding something unexpectedly deadly.
TE
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Bob Harrington
climber
Bishop, California
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I don't see what's wrong with the video. Can someone explain what is overly complicated with the system shown?
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vector
climber
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Back to the accident analysis:
I have always tripled my slings as Dingus and Kos advise, but this is not fool-proof: if you drop only one loop instead of 2 to lengthen the sling, and don't pull out sharply to reveal your error, you may be left with the perfect set-up for this accident - enough sling-bunching to look clipped, but a sling that is completely unclipped from the biner at one end. (There are 2 other less potentially hazardous alternatives, depending on which loop you drop.)
Lockers, on critical placements, or opposing biners, for sure.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Reading Vector's discussion, I totally concur with that. Slings need to be lengthened and straightened if extended to be sure that this hasn't inadvertently happened. Try this at home!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Slings need to be lengthened and straightened if extended to be sure that this hasn't inadvertently happened. Try this at home!
I know what you mean, but you fail to see my point.
Do things right in the field, don't f*#k up!
Stop practicing, start climbing. And climb smart!
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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From Crunch:
The two biners stayed attached to the rope.
This is one part that is unclear. Before the rescuers loaded Wayne into the litter, the rope was cut short by the rescuers as it was wrapped around him and all tangled up. Minutes after the rescue left, the two Neutrino's were found sitting at the base. So they could have been attached to the rope...or not. We will never know the answer to this.
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Rolfr
Social climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
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[quote]The extended slings becoming undone theory might be the correct one. I always do a double check when extending slings from trad quickdraws. I've had too many that screwed up.
I think I'll go back to my old school ways and just keep the long slings hung over my shoulder. Keeping it simple.
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GI Joe
Trad climber
Travis AFB CA
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The video points out an obvious susceptibility that we all just hope never bites us. (A wire gate doesn't help at all there BTW.) Doubling & reversing the biners or using a locker prevents it no matter what but of course this is just Monday morning quarterbacking the accident. The best thing anyone ever said to me about this actually came in a pre-mission brief: "nothing we do is routine." (I'm a flyer - USAF.) Be careful everybody...
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Three points:
1 - Slings need to be lengthened and straightened if extended to be sure that this hasn't inadvertently happened YES. This takes a little extra time but it buys a lot of piece of mind. Why do we like plain old slings? Not just because they are less expensive and more versatile. They are also less likely to lever the pro out than a sewn "dogbone" if a directional pull lifts the sling. This is especially true with nuts. Or unstable cam placements.
2 - Wiregate vs solid. From the engineering perspective neither is a "better" design. It depends on too many factors and cases. Take the problem of the gate "slamming" open. If it's against the rock as in the video, all other parts of the 'biner being equal (which they are NOT), the solid gate will certainly open further as it has more mass. Unless of course the springs are different tensions, the masses of the 'biners are different, etc. You can only draw a conclusion by testing one design against another under many conditions and several samples.
3 - Wiregate vs solid when the rope or sling is looped back over the opening end of the biner. Again it depends on the design. The "classic" oval has a smooth transition between the gate and the body. This is less likely to snag either rope or sling.
Wiregates, by necessity have a protruding nose where the wire closes. This could catch the rope/sling as it travels down the gate and direct the forces to open the gate.
Some modern solid gate biners also have the protruding nose.
I also don't like the curved solid gate biners as I think they would tend to pull the gate open if the rope or sling were twisted.
From what I've read about the accident and reading everyone's comments, it appears to me this dreadful accident resulted from the slings looping and opening the gates. But that's just my opinion.
Carrying some lighter lockers - or doubling rope end biners - for critical placements begins to sound like a good idea.
one more point: Yes, we are more frequently hearing of such accidents. I think largely because there are many more climbers and many of them are climbing at high grades. I truly believe the sport is getting safer for the same level of climbing.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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"nothing we do is routine." boy, ain't that a trap awaiting all of us!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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As often happens, language that once had a precise but restricted meaning gradually gets used in wider contexts and so loses meaning.
"Gate flutter" originally referred to very rapid small amplitude gate vibrations observed on high-speed video during some drop tests. Of course, the fact that the gate was even partially open for a fraction of a second, reduced the carabiner strength considerably.
It later became unclear whether gate flutter ever happens in the field, because it turned out that it was associated in the tests with the fact that the weight that was dropped rode in tracks, and some of the weight-track vibration interaction was transmitted to the rope and carabiner. When the dropped weight was entirely free, the gate flutter was no longer observed.
A second and completely different phenomenon is what, for lack of a better term, I'd call "gate rebound," which is an inertial phenomenon that occurs when the carabiner smacks into something and the gate keeps moving. This is easily demonstrated by smacking the back of a carabiner against your palm. The linked video shows it too, and I don't think it really matters how the carabiner is held. In any case, you don't need to have a video to know that the lower the mass of the gate, the less inertial effect, i.e. the gate will open less and snap closed earlier.
Forgetting about gate flutter, which probably doesn't happen, the usual results of gate rebound would be the breaking of a carabiner forced to endure a big load load in gate-open position. This is more likely for long runners, which provide more opportunity for the rope-end carabiner to swing into the rock hard. Still, I think it is unlikely that the rope or the sling would unclip from a gate rebound, though it is certainly possible, and of course it is even more unlikely that the rope or slings would unclip twice.
I suspect the main problem was caused by pieces blowing. There is high-speed video that shows the suddenly slack rope snaps back, going through gyrations and configurations as it does so, possibly producing the kinds of kinks and/or turns that could unclip the rope or even the sling from a carabiner without any kind of gate rebound going on.
Of course, these distinctions have no real practical value. Locking or doubled carabiners (or, if they'll fit, doubled draws as they do on the rings in the Elbsandsteingebirge) are the solution no matter what the cause. Ever since Trango came out with the original small light lockers, I've always had three or four among the free carabiners I carry---there's very little weight penalty for this. I've also sometimes racked an alpine draw with light lockers on both ends---the Granny Draw.
Sometimes it is obvious that a piece is mission-critical and deserves the locking biner treatment, but not always. Perhaps one lesson from the Crill tragedy is that the first good piece below any string of more questionable placements should be so equipped---if you are able to predict ahead of time what that anchor piece should be.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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From Crunch:
The two biners stayed attached to the rope.
This is one part that is unclear. Before the rescuers loaded Wayne into the litter, the rope was cut short by the rescuers as it was wrapped around him and all tangled up. Minutes after the rescue left, the two Neutrino's were found sitting at the base. So they could have been attached to the rope...or not. We will never know the answer to this.
Thanks FrankZapp. I misunderstood this bit.
So, we do know that the Neutrinos did come unclipped from the slings. Possibly they also came unclipped from the rope. But for them to come unclipped from both slings and rope would be far fetched, even by the freakishly unlikely knowns of this accident.
So tragic, and on top of that, so hard to know exactly what can be learned (which is typically the one positive to come out of these horrible accidents--a lesson that may prevent further accidents)
I think maybe I'll be heading to Neptunes this afternoon to buy some beefy nylon webbing slings--to be kept resolutely slung over my shoulder--and to go with them, some lightweight, locking, free biners.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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This accident happened right before I got on Heart of Stone- many of the runouts involve traversing and so the slings were extended, I found myself opposing gates on a few bolts. Took no extra gear, just pilfered biners off my other slings, and used those single biner slings with cam placements. The piece of mind was instrumental for helping me succeed
Hope Wayne recovers
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Assumptions lead everywhere and anywhere.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Bolderado
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From what I've read about the accident and reading everyone's comments, it appears to me this dreadful accident resulted from the slings looping and opening the gates. But that's just my opinion.
Carrying some lighter lockers - or doubling rope end biners - for critical placements begins to sound like a good idea.
What High Traverse said. +1
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Big +1 on using lockers or doubling 'biners for critical placements. Huge lesson I learned the hard way.
I fell and the rope came undone from the 'biner with a loooong way to the next piece below, and I took a long freefall, bounced off my shoulders and back of my helmet, and another long freefall and woke up on the ground but with rope stretch taking some of the force. I'm pretty sure it was my hand instinctively grabbing at the sling as I fell past it that caused the rope to come off the wiregate 'biner, but a locker or doubled 'biner would have spared me that disaster. Then again, maybe it would have just made the sketchy piece yank out?
The new catchphrase: "DFD" - Don't Forget (to) Double"
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WBraun
climber
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This whole discussion centers on preventing future accidents by looking for potential subtle problems that can be caused by gear.
What is really weird is this year in Yosemite we've had more climbers taking falls where they've hit the deck then at any time in history.
Most people will immediately "assume" it's because of more climbers or n00bs.
These where not n00bs.
There was something the air this year .....?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Ho man, in a flick of a keyboard, locker turns a dark moment into a laughable one! Divine comedy.
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ericthemantis
Sport climber
Provo, UTq
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Jan 20, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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For all you dissin on my youtube video, I don't work for a wire manufacturing company, and the video is not "100% misleading". It was just a simple experiment my friend and I undertook while in the possession of a high speed camera. We held the biners in a bunch of different ways, hitting it on our hands and on a wood block. How we held it definitely affected the magnitude of the gate movement I am sure, but the big take away is that a wire gate biner can still open on impact. We were curious, and our curiosity was satisfied.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Jan 20, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
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But, don't non-wire gate biners open even more readily with kinetic impacts than do wire gate biners? I believe this was what was being touted when wire gate biners were fresh on the market a number of years ago.
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Ben Emery
Trad climber
Australia via Bay Area via Australia...
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Jan 20, 2015 - 05:56pm PT
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Out of interest, is having the biner clove hitched to the dental floss sling a viable approach to reduce the biner shifting around as you climb above it/fall?
Seems it would make it less likely to cross-load etc, but perhaps a reduction in strength of the sling outweighs any advantage.
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ericthemantis
Sport climber
Provo, UT
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Jan 20, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
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@two-shoes, yeah I would definitely agree with you. I just feel like I had been led to believe that wires don't really open at all. At the same time though, for it to happen, you need a big fall, solid impact point, 90 degree impact etc. I climb on wires and solids. The wires are lighter, so I prefer them, but now recognize that the risk level is also probably the same between the two imo
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